March 28, 2024 • 45 mins
Folks in all kinds of media are great at crafting stories that use misinformation and disinformation to sway opinions about transgender people. When you’re the target of this kind of damaging propaganda, it can be super important to create spaces where you can take control of your own narratives.
Enter "The Risk It Takes to Bloom," a new memoir by award-winning author, activist, and media strategist Raquel Willis.
As we approach the end of another Women’s History Month, we speak with Raquel about the beauty of Black trans people telling their stories with agency … and how honest, personal storytelling helps pave a path toward freedom.
Keep up with Raquel:
@raquelwillis on all social platforms
Buy "The Risk It Takes to Bloom"
Get show notes at ontheme.show
Follow us on Instagram @onthemeshow
Email us at hello@ontheme.show
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and fair Weather
Friends Media. Some stories are just good time stories. Sometimes
(00:27):
we just want to key key and live in somebody
else's fictional world for a little bit.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
And sometimes we want to be educated in those moments
more feeling like we want to expand our knowledge base,
our consciousness. You might want a historical breakdown or even
a factual analysis.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
But sometimes we just want to learn about someone's life
in their own words, and in memoirs we really get
to step into someone else's shoes. We get to trace
someone's path over a specific period in their lives. We
get to see their ups and downs and their evolution
in a way that feels vulnerable and insightful.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Memoirs can be stories where our protagonist comes of age,
where they hit rock bottom, or where they go on
the adventure of a lifetime.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
The cool thing about memoirs is that they don't have
to be about famous people. They're often about everyday people
who have life stories that people can connect with and
learn from. That means that a lot of the time
we get to read stories from people whose names we
may never know otherwise, or people whose voices are systematically silenced.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
And today we'll be speaking with award winning author, activists
and media strategist Roquel Willis, who has a new memoir
called The Risk It Takes to Bloom.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
I'm Katie and I'm Eves.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Today's episode on Risk and Liberation with Roquel Willis. In
her memoir, Raquel talks about her upbringing in Georgia, the
challenges she had to face as a transgender woman, finding
her community and voice in the South, and her work
as a journalist and organizer dedicated to uplifting trans stories.
And you know, Roquel telling her story this way is
(01:58):
pretty impactful media landscape that portrays trans people as villains.
People do some serious reaching to figure out ways to
debate trans people's identity and spew hatred and intolerance, all
under the guise of moral superiority and like feigned concern
for children. I don't want a platform too much of
that narrative, but it's rampant. So you've probably seen some
(02:21):
of the anti trans propaganda. People's sloppily constructed opinions on
transfolks can lead to real damaging consequences like bathroom and
locker room bills and children dying by suicide. The point
is folks in all kinds of media are great at
crafting stories that use misinformation and disinformation to sway your
(02:42):
opinion about trans people. And when you're the target of
this kind of damaging propaganda, it can be super important
to create spaces where you can take control of your
own narratives, and in the risk it takes to bloom,
Raquel does just that. She shows us how she developed,
as she puts it, a thirst for embracing authentic storytelling
(03:03):
as a critical aspect of collective liberation. So as we
approach the end of another Women's History Month, we speak
with Raquel about the beauty of black trans people telling
their stories with agency and how honest personal storytelling helped
pave a path toward freedom. Hi Raquel, Hi, I'm so
(03:24):
glad to have you on the show today.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
Welcome, Welcome.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Yes, I loved reading your book, and one thing that
I was thinking the whole time is like, this is
so vulnerable, and I want to know what that process
was like for you. What were the emotions that you
were going through while you were writing the book and
telling your story in this very revealing way In terms.
Speaker 4 (03:49):
Of emotionality, I had to work through feelings of shame
around my story as a black trans woman who started
her career, you know, over a decade ago, and also
my transition even years before that. For a long time,
(04:11):
I felt like I had to run as far away
from my childhood and origin story as possible because I
feared my childhood, my boyhood, you know, all of those
things being weaponized against me to kind of chip away
at who I am now, to chip away at my womanhood.
(04:36):
And so I think that that was a big part
of some of the emotions there was figuring out how
to really embrace and love my younger self, but also
to give grace to family and other folks in my
life and community and environment who didn't have the tools
(04:58):
to understand who I was.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Well.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
So it seems like the things that maybe you're running
from the most, or the things that you really had
to confront as you were writing the book.
Speaker 4 (05:08):
Absolutely yeah. I mean it's laying it all on front street,
as Foth say. So you have to be ready in
a sense, and I don't know that there's a one
hundred percent way to know that you're ready to share
your story on that level, but I think being able
(05:29):
to share your story and have those hard conversations in
your most intimate relationships first is key, and I think
some of that has been lost in a time where
everyone is a brand, you know, social media demands us
to relinquish some of our most intimate and vulnerable moments
(05:55):
and sometimes to hype up and you know, perform, you know,
more vulnerability than maybe we are ready for.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
One of the things I noticed in your book that
I would say was surprising speaking of you saying learning
to Love your younger self and Embrace the boyhood, was
that you shared a picture of your younger self and
you also named your younger self.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
So what was that thought process?
Speaker 2 (06:20):
And because it often is weaponized, what made you feel
like I am going to put this out on for
a street and what?
Speaker 4 (06:27):
Yeah? I mean, those were some big decisions, and I
wanted to make sure that the pieces of my childhood
and my life before really having the language to understand
my transness, were presented in the way that I wanted
them presented. I think in previous moments of literature and
(06:50):
storytelling for trans folks, there was a necessity to kind
of paint as stark of difference between who we are,
maybe pre transitioned, so to speak, and beyond kind of
naming our transness, because I don't really think transitioning ever
(07:12):
in but I think being able to show my younger
self was important to love that younger self because I
am every version of me that has existed, right, So
I am the little kid called a boy right and
being raised as a boy, right like I have that
(07:36):
kid in me. And I also understand that these categories
of boy and girl and man and woman, you know,
it's not that rigid, and I have come to a
point in my life where it doesn't hurt me so
(07:56):
much to name that history in that way. But I
also didn't just want to share my younger self. I
wanted to share this context that I was birth and race,
and which is my family. So it's not just a
picture of me, it's a picture of Actually every picture
is a picture of me with family or community, mostly
(08:19):
my mom, because she's been kind of a central figure
in my life, so she is featured in three of
the images.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
Does she love that, you know?
Speaker 4 (08:31):
I think she did. She hasn't spoken to that dynamic specifically,
but it has been important for me at various points
in my career to name that I have a loving
and affirming mother and a family that has evolved alongside me.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
So I would imagine there are many trans people who
may not be ready to tell their stories, maybe thinking
about telling their stories in various ways, and they might
not have gotten to this point where you are, like
you say, where those things don't hurt you to name anymore,
or that shame that you said you were able to
work through through this process, which I guess this process
of writing the book could have been therapeutic in ways
(09:13):
to help you.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
Work through it.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
But what kind of advice would you give to other
trans people who want to share their stories, who don't
necessarily have the capacity or tools to move through shame
to name things that may be difficult for them to name.
Speaker 4 (09:30):
Well, I think it's important to figure out what your
outlet is for release of all of the inevitable pin
up energy and ankst and grieving and fears. For some
people that's sports and being active in that way. It's
(09:53):
for some people it's the arts and all the ways
that that exists. But I think that having the outlets
are so key to let that energy out in some way,
even if it's not energy that you can really name
specifically what it is, and that feels important for me
as a trans person to state because I think that
(10:16):
the naming of the experience is just one thing, but
I think the how you express it is another thing, right,
and that that helps us get to the deeper layers
of what are the parts of your story that give
you strength? What are the parts of your story that
you feel most traumatized by or hurt by? And where
(10:40):
we let that energy out matters? And for me, you know,
that has been writing. It has been being able to
express myself in the written word and speeches and all
of those different things. Also, my advice for folks trying
to work through through guilt and shame has been to
(11:05):
find other stories and kind of sustain yourself one those
until you can get to a point where you can
share your story in the way that you need to.
I mean, whenever I feel like times are difficult, and
that's pretty often these days. I think about our ancestors
(11:26):
and trancestors and like what they endured and built with
even less tools and access and language to understand who
they were. Right, if they could do it, why can't
I figure out my path?
Speaker 3 (11:43):
Yeah? That makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
Are there any memoirs that you look to in writing
your book.
Speaker 4 (11:48):
Oh, absolutely, I mean the perfect kind of quintessential memoirs.
Of course, you know Janet Mok's redefining realness, surpassing certainty.
Her two memoirs are foundational. And also I had this book,
but I had to really fall in love with it
(12:09):
all over again. Hiding My Candy by the Lady Shabbie,
who was a black trans performer they would say female
impersonator back in the nineties, but that was when she
wrote her autobiography because she was a character in this
best selling book called Midnight in the Garden of Good
and Evil. And then she also was able to reprise
(12:32):
her role in the film. So we have this kind
of hidden black trans history and Southern Black trans history
that I think we haven't talked about enough.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
What do you see the connection between personal narrative and
social change in the context of your memoir.
Speaker 4 (12:53):
Well, I think that it was important to recognize both
the revolution that happened within me and the one that
happened beyond me and continues to happen, right, And I
think revolution is an ongoing phenomenon which I speak to
(13:13):
in the epilogue of the book. But I think when
you believe in collective liberation, there is an inherent need
to also believe in the power of transformation. And that
isn't just something that happens collectively like that has to
happen on an individual level too. And I think we
(13:34):
discount how important the moments of shift and change and
taking risk to bloom matter in our lives. Right that
death that you experience in your family or with a
loved ones and friends or in community, that is fertilizer
(13:55):
for you to grow and change, Right, not just kind
of wallow and will to away. The loss of a
dream or the shattering of an expectation. You know, those
are opportunities for us to think new ways of living
and existing. And that's the connection for me.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
More with Raquel willis after the break you mentioned the
power of personal transformation and being able to tell your story.
What are your thoughts on memoir being a space for
trans people to be able to tell their stories. Do
(14:43):
you think that it is a safe and authentic medium
for trans people to be able to tell their stories.
Speaker 4 (14:50):
What I appreciate about memoir and book link works and
long form is that it just gives the creator vast
space to dig into the nuances, and I think in
(15:11):
a world where most people, I think it's safe to
say most people don't understand the complexity of gender or
sex or identity in all of these different ways, we
need that space to tease out these different things. Trans
folks are not thought of in these kind of deeper
(15:34):
complex ways, and that's what I wanted to add to
the cannon.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
I'm also thinking about how at this point you've gone
to different places for your book tour and had different
conversations in those spaces, So that kind of means you've
had to continue talking about your story over and over.
Have you learned anything new about yourself? Have you had
any revelations in this continuation or guess dialogue that you're
having with your own store in this process.
Speaker 4 (16:02):
There's this quote that's like, and I don't know who
to attribute to, but it's like, once you create the thing,
oftentimes it's no longer yours, and there's a piece of that,
you know, Like, my experience with this book has been
(16:23):
so different at different points. Obviously, you know, I think
the drafting of it was its own particular experience and
had its own struggles and triumphs of do I want
to include that can I say that? And then of
course the editing process is like, well, can I say
(16:44):
that better? Or do I need to take that out?
Is that a disservice to my goals or doesn't make
you know, my arguments for my existence stronger? You know?
But that's a different struggle than the drafting process. And
then of course in the publishing it's like, well, what
(17:07):
are the ways that I'm willing to allow my story
to be packaged in the ways that I'm not Now
that I have created this thing and that is its
own thing too. And then the other piece is now
that this is out in the world and I'm having
conversations with folks and they're making their connections around the
(17:30):
parts that really resonate with them, it becomes its own
thing when other people read it than it is for me,
because I'm the only person in the world who has
had the experience of processing, analyzing, and creating this. So
no one is going to, even in reading my book,
(17:50):
know my full story or my whole truth. I mean,
there are folks who have read the difficult moments I
had with family and own see the difficult part because they,
in their life have only experienced the difficult part, and
so maybe the argument of evolution of family isn't as
(18:11):
resonant for them because they haven't been able to experience
that right, Or maybe they don't believe that that's possible,
and maybe it's not possible for them and their family right.
And then of course there are other folks who are like,
latch on to the evolution of my family and the
possibility and see that maybe it's possible for them, or
maybe they are experiencing that joy. It bores and it
(18:34):
shifts depending on who is having the conversation.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
That's one of the things about memoirs is it's a
book about you in a certain part of your life.
But as you said, you're in community with people, so
other people are going to show up, and you know,
sometimes people don't like how they show up in your memoir.
Speaker 4 (18:53):
They're like, I do that you remember that wrong.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
But one thing I liked about your memoir is that
you also included letters to other people, your dad being one,
but other trans people like China Gibson. Why was that
important for you to center them in that way?
Speaker 4 (19:10):
I would say the first chapter that I had a
full draft of was the chapter about my dad and
someone told me. Actually, Janet Mock when she read an
early version, said, you know, this is the emotional core
of the book. You know, like this is you essentially
me at you know, my most vulnerable. How are you
(19:33):
going to glean your power sitting in that? In these
other spaces in the book. And so that was that
was some very beautiful, necessary feedback because it was a risk, right,
it was a risk to name, especially as someone often
put on a pedestal and probably put on a pedestal
(19:55):
more now. Right, it's just like it keeps growing, you know,
as a public figure, as an activist, I'm often a
person who becomes a vessel for other people to understand
themselves or the world or politics or liberation even which
(20:16):
is like is wild to me, and you know it's
impossible to be that really, But I wanted to be
able to show these moments, and particularly with my dad,
where I felt the most shame and the most guilt
(20:37):
around not living up to his expectations, societies expectations, the
Catholic churches expectations, you know, all of these different things.
That was important and to talk about what it means
and what it meant to embrace being a failure to
(21:00):
those expectations, right, and a failure to these ideas that
I would be a person who would see myself in
black masculinity, and that if I didn't and couldn't, that
I shouldn't exist, right. That was important, And I think
(21:20):
with the epistolary approach with the letters, it was necessary
to be able to continue the narrative of the story progressing,
but also be able to speak more directly to who
I was at the time of writing. And so I
become a slightly different narrator, pulling on more dimensions of
(21:45):
what I've learned along the way and bring the reader
through that moment. And that was kind of the approach,
and that was what I felt like, change the tone
a little bit. And I think for some people the
letters are the most important, or not important, but their
most resonant parts of the book for them.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Yeah, letters are like really intimate. I think about, you know,
James Baldwin writing to his nephew, or Ton of Hose
Coast writing to his son, and it's like we get
to get a peek into you writing to these different
trans women you know who didn't make it and coming
like I guess from like a big sister energy to
(22:28):
little Sister, even though their ancestors now So yeah, it
is really resonant.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
You say in the introduction to your book that you
have formative organizing experiences that fuel your thirst for embracing
authentic storytelling as a critical aspect of collective liberation. I
like you to talk more about that and why and
how it's a critical aspect of collective liberation.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
What is the link between those two things.
Speaker 4 (22:54):
So I studied journalism at the University of Georgia. Go Dogs.
I think I'm obligated to say that where I get
fined or maybe they throw another student loan at me,
I don't know. But when I was in journalism school,
and I think that this is true for a lot
of folks in the margins, the idea of objectivity was
kind of a way to keep us from bringing our
(23:18):
lived experience into conversation with our expertise. So this idea
that to be unbiased is to be a blank slate,
to strip yourself of these things that make you unique,
your blackness, your transness, your queerness, your womanhood, even and
(23:39):
on and on. But as I started to get into
the field and have opportunities, at least at my first job.
I wasn't out as queer and trance because I didn't
feel safe enough, and I felt the impact of being
closeted on my work. I wasn't a to be the
(24:00):
best storyteller that I could be because I had to
hide my queerness and transness, or at least felt I
had to to survive, and that was a problem. So
then it must be true that to be open about
those things would make me a deeper, richer storyteller. And
(24:22):
so then when we think about the James Baldwins and
the Angela Davises and the Ida b Wells Barnett's, you
know who brought their full self to their work in
varying ways. Those are the people I aspire to be,
not the folks that inevitably have told me that my blackness,
(24:47):
transnis queerness in womanhood didn't matter.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
More conversation with Raquel after the Break.
Speaker 4 (25:03):
So by now.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
You've worked in a bunch of different mediums, so magazines,
you've done it in speeches in public capacities, and podcasts,
and I know new podcasts just launched, and just writing
your own book writing essays. I was wondering if you've
seen any sort of differences in how you're able to
(25:30):
move towards this aim of liberation and whatever other goals
you have.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
In your storytelling through these different mediums.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
How does the goalpost or how does how you achieve
those objectives? How does that change as the medium changes?
Speaker 4 (25:48):
Well, I think that with media changes, the technique, the skills,
you know, those kind of things shift, But I don't
think purpose shifts all that much. So if I'm invested
in elevating the honor and dignity of black trans power
(26:08):
and liberation, which I am, then it carries me through
whatever era I'm in, whatever role that I'm in, and
on and on. So in writing, the stories that I
want to share inevitably are connected to observing black transpower
(26:37):
and dreaming of what black transpower can be. Or if
I'm working in podcasting, it's about for instance, Afterlives one
podcast that's focused on the lives we've lost too soon
to violence in the trans community. And so with Leileen
Polanco's story, who was the center of the first season,
(27:00):
we're talking about an Afro Latina trans woman who died
in Riker's custody. This is a black trans story, but
it's also a universal story. It's a story of someone incarcerated,
someone who had epilepsy and schizophrenia, someone who was a
sex worker. She was in ballroom culture, walk in face, honey,
(27:24):
she was all of these different things, but also a
black trans person or with Queer Chronicles. The podcast you
were talking about that just released. This is a podcast
focused on how we can get queer and trans folks
to tell their stories on their own terms. So while
(27:45):
I'm a host of the show, I really feel like
I'm just the facilitator for folks to tell their story
right And this first season focuses on trans Tenes, queer
and trans Tenes, and political battleground states right now in
twenty twenty four, telling their own stories, unfiltered with as
(28:07):
minimal intervention from my MOODI old ass as possible.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
Not molding.
Speaker 4 (28:14):
But there are black trans youth right There's one young
person named Safara, another one named Indigo who is a
part of this larger collective of queer and trans kids
of varying backgrounds and experiences telling their stories in Alabama
(28:35):
and Texas and on and on. So that purpose is
there whatever I do. And so I think that that
figuring out what your purpose is key.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
Yeah, I think there's so much misinformation and disinformation that
media spews that is just you know, necessitates real narratives,
and podcasts are really good at doing that, and it
seems like Queer Chronicles is a perfect example of a
space where people can just tell their own stories. But
I think the thing that's cool about podcasting, and this
(29:11):
kind of podcast specifically, is that it's like in this
tradition of the oral narratives, the Works Progress Administration or
you know, WPA, or it's like a lot of the
times we wouldn't we wouldn't hear those people, we wouldn't
know their stories, and so that's so powerful. But I
also wonder if you think that there are any limitations
(29:32):
of storytelling and how it can lead to collective liberation.
Do you think there are any ways in which storytelling
falls short and can be supplemented with other actions.
Speaker 4 (29:43):
Well, I don't think storytelling falls short when it's rooted
and truth. I think storytelling can be damaging just like
anything else. Right, it's not inherently benevolent. Donald Trump is storyteller.
He's telling a story of power by any means necessary,
(30:07):
on the backs of folks on the margins and that's
not just folks of color and religious minorities and queer
and trans folks and women. That's also a huge part
of his base, poor people, working class people, middle class people.
So storytelling can be used negatively, right. We also see
(30:32):
storytelling being negative when folks aren't curious enough or are
invested in their existing ignorances and fears. We see it
on the Shade Room, right. We see it on other
blog and niche media platforms that will throw up an
(30:57):
image of a queer, trans or in a non conforming person,
or put a baby mama on blast or whatever and
let the audience chip away at that person's humanity. Yeah,
without any kind of intervention, because it's all about engagements
(31:17):
and clicks, and that pulls us away from seeing the
humanity and other black people.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
It's very disturbing, and I think we've been very desensitized
to it at this point.
Speaker 4 (31:28):
We have, so storytelling can be used negatively. I do
think it is a skill that everyone needs to be
able to tap into. It will enrich everyone's lives, no
matter what industry or sector that you're in, to be
able to articulate who you are, your story, your history,
(31:50):
where you hope to go your dreams. That's liberating, and
you're right, it's just one thing we have to be doing.
Other actions have to be invested in material change. We
have to be clear about where resources are going. You know,
there's a reason people are talking about boycotting genocidal regimes
(32:16):
and societies right now, particularly thinking about what's happening to
our Palestinian famine folks in Gaza. I think figuring out
your part in civic duty is key. It's not just
about the presidential election. It is about oftentimes these local
and state elections right where we are seeing a lot
(32:40):
of this damaging legislation being moved, not just around LGBTQ
plus people and keeping transit from being protected in schools,
but we also see the fight against what people are
saying is critical race theory right, which is really a
dog whistle, particularly for black folks other folks of color
(33:01):
from knowing their history in school. So the civic part
is also important as well.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Are there any parts of your story where you feel
like you didn't say enough or you said too much
in your book?
Speaker 4 (33:17):
No, moments of tension and conflict that were major in
the book. I had conversations with those folks, and so
those relationships are intact. I will say I had I
was very anxious to share about moments where I felt violated,
(33:38):
whether it was my body. I also felt anxiety over
talking about difficulties and struggles and shortcomings in the workplace.
You know, this is a capitalist society, right, You're not
supposed to talk about your struggles in the workplace. Really,
You're just supposed to pack your bags and go on
(34:02):
if you can. But I think it's necessary as a
black trans woman to be able to name the ways
that I have felt exploited, either in corporate media or
in nonprofits, and the moments where I felt most complicit
in systems of oppression too, because capitalism requires some kind
(34:26):
of exploitation of something or someone even when we don't
see it.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
That's I like the memoirs where the person ready it
can kind of point to finger at themselves too and
be like, I ain't do everything perfect, you know, because
we've all been complicit in something.
Speaker 3 (34:46):
I ain't all right about what I had, but you know,
I'm telling myself.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
But I really do appreciate the honesty there, because it's
like you can feel so guilty, like damn, like I'm
the worst person in the world. Like no one else
has said that they did this and I did that,
or you know, I was part of this workplace. I
knew I shouldn't been there. I knew I shouldn't have
been the manager there, or you know, telling people this
and that, but you know, I was just doing what
I was told. So I really appreciate it when people can,
(35:12):
you know, do that introspection and say, you know, I've
changed now, I'm different now, but this is what I
was doing back then.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
Now you can have a different understanding and shifting perspective
when you're reading somebody else going through their own internal
processes and be like, maybe I need to rethink that
or change.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
The way I'm doing things and moving.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
And I'm curious too about you use the word truth.
And we talked a little bit about social media earlier
and authenticity and how we can construct these different personas
depending upon the medium that we're expressing ourselves through. What
does what is truth and authenticity to you? You know,
I think this is a kind of an age old
(35:54):
thing that we think about in storytelling. You know, even
like Ida B. Wells had the quote, I can't remember
that exact quote, but around shining the light of truth
on things. What does truth and authenticity mean to you
in general? In storytelling capacity and in telling black stories,
in trans stories and Southern stories.
Speaker 4 (36:16):
I think the most useful or impactful type of truth
to me is the one that is steeped in vulnerability.
I don't know how you really get to authenticity without
valuing vulnerability too, because with vulnerability comes low risk, right
(36:39):
that you know, it is all up in the title
of this book, the risk it takes the bloom, right.
But I think there's risk in showing your fears. There's
risk in showing your anxieties and insecurities. But I think
once those are laid out on the table, then we
really know what we're working with, right, and then may
(37:03):
maybe we have more of an opportunity to utilize those
things as fertilizer, as I say in the epilogue of
the book, to imagine and dream and build something new
and leave something better behind for the next folks. So
for me, that is necessary. What I think about, for instance,
(37:27):
all of these moments of transphobia that we witness of
course in society, but also just in culture in general.
You know, whether it's just hilarious talking about her thoughts
around trans women, but it's really coming from a deep
wounded place of feeling like she's not woman enough or
(37:52):
that her identity has been shredded up because trans people
are demanding that we're respected and treated with honor and dignity.
And she's not the only one that feels that way.
We all know a handful, if not more, of since
(38:13):
women in particular, who feel like trans women threaten their existence.
And then we can also talk about what it's like
for black women who have never been fully respected in
their womanhood in comparison to a white ideal, and what
it means to have someone else right beside them demanding
(38:35):
to be seen and respected to That's a wound, honey,
But that is also a truth that we can't get
to if we hide it behind Oh well, this is
just what I've always known, or I don't want to
know these new things, or no, honey, like, let's figure
out what's at the root of this problem. Or Dave
(38:57):
Chappelle right, it's not really that he thinks trans folks
aren't real or valid. In fact, it's his anxieties about
the truth that we are real and what that may
mean about his masculinity, that he, now in a time
when we're more visible than ever before and discussed more
(39:19):
than ever before, can't ignore us and can't look away.
And so if he, as a cis hat black man,
is perceiving the fact that particularly trans women exists, what
does that mean for him in relation to us? That's
(39:41):
an anxiety, that's a fear. But I think that's the
deeper truth than all the lines of a horrible joke
that he or Just Hilarious could write.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
When you were writing the Risk It Takes a Bloom,
did you have the Just Hilariouses and the Dave Chappelle's
of the world in mind for them to read it
and gain something for it? Or were you like, this
is for the folks who are already in al shit
with the trans community.
Speaker 4 (40:08):
I knew that all types of people would read it.
I don't know that the Just Hilariouses or the Dave
Chappelle's would read it. You know, I wasn't thinking of
them as my audience, right, at least not my core audience.
Maybe they are an audience two three times removed, right,
(40:30):
like a cousin you've never met. But my core audience
has been well. I think probably the most important audience
member is me period. I know, you know, you know
what is it Tony Morrison who says that, you know,
we have to write the stories that we want to see.
(40:54):
For me, as a black trans woman, to imagine myself
as the audience, it's different, it's rare, It's something we
need more of. If I thought about trying to speak
to a particular audience, there's a certain amount of myself
(41:19):
that I would have to dilute down in a race,
because I know that to be black and to be
trans is not the average experience. I am on the
margins of margins, and so to take that power back,
I had to be able to say and care the
(41:39):
most about what I think, but also what black trans
people think, right, because your people know when you own
some bullshit and when you're not, and they're gonna tell
you because they are your people. And so whatever I
can do to honor and be real to my community
(42:04):
about black trans folks, that's what I'm invested at.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
So now it is time for role credits, the segment
where we give credit to a person, place, or thing
that we encountered during the week, and we have our
guests Raquel joining us, But first, Eves, who are.
Speaker 3 (42:22):
What would you like to give credit to?
Speaker 1 (42:23):
So? I think just in general on the show and today,
we've been talking a lot about personal narratives, So I
want to give credit to all of the black writers
and authors in history, and people like Ida b Wells
and the estates of those ancestors families who put their
letters and archives so we're able to read those correspondences
(42:45):
between people like you know, James Baldwin and Ida b
Wells and everybody else who has letters that we can
read today.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
Okay, I would like to give credit to all the
girls celebrating rama. Don you know, I think Islam is
a beautiful religion, and you know, folks be lying on
the Muslims all the time, and I believe what they
say about y'all. I know y'all peaceful, and I know
(43:13):
you've been going through it.
Speaker 4 (43:14):
And I rock with y'all.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
For Raquel, who are what would you like to give
credit to?
Speaker 4 (43:20):
I want to give credit to a friend, Tourmaline, a
powerful black trans filmmaker and activists. She's in the Whitney Biennial.
She has this film called Pollinator, and it draws on
the enduring legacy of Marsha P. Johnson and the flower
(43:41):
crowns that she used to wear. And I just think
that her work is just beautiful and a lot of
us would not be having the conversations we have about
Marsha P. Johnson or Sylvia Rivera without some of the
archival work that Tourmaline has been crucial in uncovering.
Speaker 2 (44:01):
So oh, I gotta check that come out. Thank you
for letting us know about that, and thank you for
joining us. It was so great talking to you.
Speaker 4 (44:09):
Yeah, thank y'all for these insightful questions.
Speaker 1 (44:13):
Thank you, and is there anything you'll want to shout out?
And can you also tell us where they can find
you on social media?
Speaker 4 (44:20):
Yeah, you can find me at rockel Willis on all
platforms rockel Willis dot com. And the book is The
Risk It Takes The Bloom on Life and Liberation. The
audiobook is out now, so check it out. And then
the two podcasts we mentioned, one is Queer Chronicles and
(44:40):
the other is Afterlives. These are available wherever you get podcasts.
Speaker 2 (44:46):
Nice thank you, Raquel, thank you tuning in to those shows.
And with that, we will see you next week.
Speaker 1 (44:53):
File On then is a production of Heart Radio and
Fairweather Friends Media. This episode was written by Eves, Jeffco
and Katie Mitchell. It was edited and produced by Tari Harrison.
Follow us on Instagram at on Themeshow. You can also
send us an email at hello at on Theme dot Show.
(45:17):
Head to on Theme dot Show to check out the
show notes for episodes. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit
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your favorite shows.
On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and fair Weather
Friends Media. Some stories are just good time stories. Sometimes
(00:27):
we just want to key key and live in somebody
else's fictional world for a little bit.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
And sometimes we want to be educated in those moments
more feeling like we want to expand our knowledge base,
our consciousness. You might want a historical breakdown or even
a factual analysis.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
But sometimes we just want to learn about someone's life
in their own words, and in memoirs we really get
to step into someone else's shoes. We get to trace
someone's path over a specific period in their lives. We
get to see their ups and downs and their evolution
in a way that feels vulnerable and insightful.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Memoirs can be stories where our protagonist comes of age,
where they hit rock bottom, or where they go on
the adventure of a lifetime.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
The cool thing about memoirs is that they don't have
to be about famous people. They're often about everyday people
who have life stories that people can connect with and
learn from. That means that a lot of the time
we get to read stories from people whose names we
may never know otherwise, or people whose voices are systematically silenced.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
And today we'll be speaking with award winning author, activists
and media strategist Roquel Willis, who has a new memoir
called The Risk It Takes to Bloom.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
I'm Katie and I'm Eves.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Today's episode on Risk and Liberation with Roquel Willis. In
her memoir, Raquel talks about her upbringing in Georgia, the
challenges she had to face as a transgender woman, finding
her community and voice in the South, and her work
as a journalist and organizer dedicated to uplifting trans stories.
And you know, Roquel telling her story this way is
(01:58):
pretty impactful media landscape that portrays trans people as villains.
People do some serious reaching to figure out ways to
debate trans people's identity and spew hatred and intolerance, all
under the guise of moral superiority and like feigned concern
for children. I don't want a platform too much of
that narrative, but it's rampant. So you've probably seen some
(02:21):
of the anti trans propaganda. People's sloppily constructed opinions on
transfolks can lead to real damaging consequences like bathroom and
locker room bills and children dying by suicide. The point
is folks in all kinds of media are great at
crafting stories that use misinformation and disinformation to sway your
(02:42):
opinion about trans people. And when you're the target of
this kind of damaging propaganda, it can be super important
to create spaces where you can take control of your
own narratives, and in the risk it takes to bloom,
Raquel does just that. She shows us how she developed,
as she puts it, a thirst for embracing authentic storytelling
(03:03):
as a critical aspect of collective liberation. So as we
approach the end of another Women's History Month, we speak
with Raquel about the beauty of black trans people telling
their stories with agency and how honest personal storytelling helped
pave a path toward freedom. Hi Raquel, Hi, I'm so
(03:24):
glad to have you on the show today.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
Welcome, Welcome.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Yes, I loved reading your book, and one thing that
I was thinking the whole time is like, this is
so vulnerable, and I want to know what that process
was like for you. What were the emotions that you
were going through while you were writing the book and
telling your story in this very revealing way In terms.
Speaker 4 (03:49):
Of emotionality, I had to work through feelings of shame
around my story as a black trans woman who started
her career, you know, over a decade ago, and also
my transition even years before that. For a long time,
(04:11):
I felt like I had to run as far away
from my childhood and origin story as possible because I
feared my childhood, my boyhood, you know, all of those
things being weaponized against me to kind of chip away
at who I am now, to chip away at my womanhood.
(04:36):
And so I think that that was a big part
of some of the emotions there was figuring out how
to really embrace and love my younger self, but also
to give grace to family and other folks in my
life and community and environment who didn't have the tools
(04:58):
to understand who I was.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Well.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
So it seems like the things that maybe you're running
from the most, or the things that you really had
to confront as you were writing the book.
Speaker 4 (05:08):
Absolutely yeah. I mean it's laying it all on front street,
as Foth say. So you have to be ready in
a sense, and I don't know that there's a one
hundred percent way to know that you're ready to share
your story on that level, but I think being able
(05:29):
to share your story and have those hard conversations in
your most intimate relationships first is key, and I think
some of that has been lost in a time where
everyone is a brand, you know, social media demands us
to relinquish some of our most intimate and vulnerable moments
(05:55):
and sometimes to hype up and you know, perform, you know,
more vulnerability than maybe we are ready for.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
One of the things I noticed in your book that
I would say was surprising speaking of you saying learning
to Love your younger self and Embrace the boyhood, was
that you shared a picture of your younger self and
you also named your younger self.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
So what was that thought process?
Speaker 2 (06:20):
And because it often is weaponized, what made you feel
like I am going to put this out on for
a street and what?
Speaker 4 (06:27):
Yeah? I mean, those were some big decisions, and I
wanted to make sure that the pieces of my childhood
and my life before really having the language to understand
my transness, were presented in the way that I wanted
them presented. I think in previous moments of literature and
(06:50):
storytelling for trans folks, there was a necessity to kind
of paint as stark of difference between who we are,
maybe pre transitioned, so to speak, and beyond kind of
naming our transness, because I don't really think transitioning ever
(07:12):
in but I think being able to show my younger
self was important to love that younger self because I
am every version of me that has existed, right, So
I am the little kid called a boy right and
being raised as a boy, right like I have that
(07:36):
kid in me. And I also understand that these categories
of boy and girl and man and woman, you know,
it's not that rigid, and I have come to a
point in my life where it doesn't hurt me so
(07:56):
much to name that history in that way. But I
also didn't just want to share my younger self. I
wanted to share this context that I was birth and race,
and which is my family. So it's not just a
picture of me, it's a picture of Actually every picture
is a picture of me with family or community, mostly
(08:19):
my mom, because she's been kind of a central figure
in my life, so she is featured in three of
the images.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
Does she love that, you know?
Speaker 4 (08:31):
I think she did. She hasn't spoken to that dynamic specifically,
but it has been important for me at various points
in my career to name that I have a loving
and affirming mother and a family that has evolved alongside me.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
So I would imagine there are many trans people who
may not be ready to tell their stories, maybe thinking
about telling their stories in various ways, and they might
not have gotten to this point where you are, like
you say, where those things don't hurt you to name anymore,
or that shame that you said you were able to
work through through this process, which I guess this process
of writing the book could have been therapeutic in ways
(09:13):
to help you.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
Work through it.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
But what kind of advice would you give to other
trans people who want to share their stories, who don't
necessarily have the capacity or tools to move through shame
to name things that may be difficult for them to name.
Speaker 4 (09:30):
Well, I think it's important to figure out what your
outlet is for release of all of the inevitable pin
up energy and ankst and grieving and fears. For some
people that's sports and being active in that way. It's
(09:53):
for some people it's the arts and all the ways
that that exists. But I think that having the outlets
are so key to let that energy out in some way,
even if it's not energy that you can really name
specifically what it is, and that feels important for me
as a trans person to state because I think that
(10:16):
the naming of the experience is just one thing, but
I think the how you express it is another thing, right,
and that that helps us get to the deeper layers
of what are the parts of your story that give
you strength? What are the parts of your story that
you feel most traumatized by or hurt by? And where
(10:40):
we let that energy out matters? And for me, you know,
that has been writing. It has been being able to
express myself in the written word and speeches and all
of those different things. Also, my advice for folks trying
to work through through guilt and shame has been to
(11:05):
find other stories and kind of sustain yourself one those
until you can get to a point where you can
share your story in the way that you need to.
I mean, whenever I feel like times are difficult, and
that's pretty often these days. I think about our ancestors
(11:26):
and trancestors and like what they endured and built with
even less tools and access and language to understand who
they were. Right, if they could do it, why can't
I figure out my path?
Speaker 3 (11:43):
Yeah? That makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
Are there any memoirs that you look to in writing
your book.
Speaker 4 (11:48):
Oh, absolutely, I mean the perfect kind of quintessential memoirs.
Of course, you know Janet Mok's redefining realness, surpassing certainty.
Her two memoirs are foundational. And also I had this book,
but I had to really fall in love with it
(12:09):
all over again. Hiding My Candy by the Lady Shabbie,
who was a black trans performer they would say female
impersonator back in the nineties, but that was when she
wrote her autobiography because she was a character in this
best selling book called Midnight in the Garden of Good
and Evil. And then she also was able to reprise
(12:32):
her role in the film. So we have this kind
of hidden black trans history and Southern Black trans history
that I think we haven't talked about enough.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
What do you see the connection between personal narrative and
social change in the context of your memoir.
Speaker 4 (12:53):
Well, I think that it was important to recognize both
the revolution that happened within me and the one that
happened beyond me and continues to happen, right, And I
think revolution is an ongoing phenomenon which I speak to
(13:13):
in the epilogue of the book. But I think when
you believe in collective liberation, there is an inherent need
to also believe in the power of transformation. And that
isn't just something that happens collectively like that has to
happen on an individual level too. And I think we
(13:34):
discount how important the moments of shift and change and
taking risk to bloom matter in our lives. Right that
death that you experience in your family or with a
loved ones and friends or in community, that is fertilizer
(13:55):
for you to grow and change, Right, not just kind
of wallow and will to away. The loss of a
dream or the shattering of an expectation. You know, those
are opportunities for us to think new ways of living
and existing. And that's the connection for me.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
More with Raquel willis after the break you mentioned the
power of personal transformation and being able to tell your story.
What are your thoughts on memoir being a space for
trans people to be able to tell their stories. Do
(14:43):
you think that it is a safe and authentic medium
for trans people to be able to tell their stories.
Speaker 4 (14:50):
What I appreciate about memoir and book link works and
long form is that it just gives the creator vast
space to dig into the nuances, and I think in
(15:11):
a world where most people, I think it's safe to
say most people don't understand the complexity of gender or
sex or identity in all of these different ways, we
need that space to tease out these different things. Trans
folks are not thought of in these kind of deeper
(15:34):
complex ways, and that's what I wanted to add to
the cannon.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
I'm also thinking about how at this point you've gone
to different places for your book tour and had different
conversations in those spaces, So that kind of means you've
had to continue talking about your story over and over.
Have you learned anything new about yourself? Have you had
any revelations in this continuation or guess dialogue that you're
having with your own store in this process.
Speaker 4 (16:02):
There's this quote that's like, and I don't know who
to attribute to, but it's like, once you create the thing,
oftentimes it's no longer yours, and there's a piece of that,
you know, Like, my experience with this book has been
(16:23):
so different at different points. Obviously, you know, I think
the drafting of it was its own particular experience and
had its own struggles and triumphs of do I want
to include that can I say that? And then of
course the editing process is like, well, can I say
(16:44):
that better? Or do I need to take that out?
Is that a disservice to my goals or doesn't make
you know, my arguments for my existence stronger? You know?
But that's a different struggle than the drafting process. And
then of course in the publishing it's like, well, what
(17:07):
are the ways that I'm willing to allow my story
to be packaged in the ways that I'm not Now
that I have created this thing and that is its
own thing too. And then the other piece is now
that this is out in the world and I'm having
conversations with folks and they're making their connections around the
(17:30):
parts that really resonate with them, it becomes its own
thing when other people read it than it is for me,
because I'm the only person in the world who has
had the experience of processing, analyzing, and creating this. So
no one is going to, even in reading my book,
(17:50):
know my full story or my whole truth. I mean,
there are folks who have read the difficult moments I
had with family and own see the difficult part because they,
in their life have only experienced the difficult part, and
so maybe the argument of evolution of family isn't as
(18:11):
resonant for them because they haven't been able to experience
that right, Or maybe they don't believe that that's possible,
and maybe it's not possible for them and their family right.
And then of course there are other folks who are like,
latch on to the evolution of my family and the
possibility and see that maybe it's possible for them, or
maybe they are experiencing that joy. It bores and it
(18:34):
shifts depending on who is having the conversation.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
That's one of the things about memoirs is it's a
book about you in a certain part of your life.
But as you said, you're in community with people, so
other people are going to show up, and you know,
sometimes people don't like how they show up in your memoir.
Speaker 4 (18:53):
They're like, I do that you remember that wrong.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
But one thing I liked about your memoir is that
you also included letters to other people, your dad being one,
but other trans people like China Gibson. Why was that
important for you to center them in that way?
Speaker 4 (19:10):
I would say the first chapter that I had a
full draft of was the chapter about my dad and
someone told me. Actually, Janet Mock when she read an
early version, said, you know, this is the emotional core
of the book. You know, like this is you essentially
me at you know, my most vulnerable. How are you
(19:33):
going to glean your power sitting in that? In these
other spaces in the book. And so that was that
was some very beautiful, necessary feedback because it was a risk, right,
it was a risk to name, especially as someone often
put on a pedestal and probably put on a pedestal
(19:55):
more now. Right, it's just like it keeps growing, you know,
as a public figure, as an activist, I'm often a
person who becomes a vessel for other people to understand
themselves or the world or politics or liberation even which
(20:16):
is like is wild to me, and you know it's
impossible to be that really, But I wanted to be
able to show these moments, and particularly with my dad,
where I felt the most shame and the most guilt
(20:37):
around not living up to his expectations, societies expectations, the
Catholic churches expectations, you know, all of these different things.
That was important and to talk about what it means
and what it meant to embrace being a failure to
(21:00):
those expectations, right, and a failure to these ideas that
I would be a person who would see myself in
black masculinity, and that if I didn't and couldn't, that
I shouldn't exist, right. That was important, And I think
(21:20):
with the epistolary approach with the letters, it was necessary
to be able to continue the narrative of the story progressing,
but also be able to speak more directly to who
I was at the time of writing. And so I
become a slightly different narrator, pulling on more dimensions of
(21:45):
what I've learned along the way and bring the reader
through that moment. And that was kind of the approach,
and that was what I felt like, change the tone
a little bit. And I think for some people the
letters are the most important, or not important, but their
most resonant parts of the book for them.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Yeah, letters are like really intimate. I think about, you know,
James Baldwin writing to his nephew, or Ton of Hose
Coast writing to his son, and it's like we get
to get a peek into you writing to these different
trans women you know who didn't make it and coming
like I guess from like a big sister energy to
(22:28):
little Sister, even though their ancestors now So yeah, it
is really resonant.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
You say in the introduction to your book that you
have formative organizing experiences that fuel your thirst for embracing
authentic storytelling as a critical aspect of collective liberation. I
like you to talk more about that and why and
how it's a critical aspect of collective liberation.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
What is the link between those two things.
Speaker 4 (22:54):
So I studied journalism at the University of Georgia. Go Dogs.
I think I'm obligated to say that where I get
fined or maybe they throw another student loan at me,
I don't know. But when I was in journalism school,
and I think that this is true for a lot
of folks in the margins, the idea of objectivity was
kind of a way to keep us from bringing our
(23:18):
lived experience into conversation with our expertise. So this idea
that to be unbiased is to be a blank slate,
to strip yourself of these things that make you unique,
your blackness, your transness, your queerness, your womanhood, even and
(23:39):
on and on. But as I started to get into
the field and have opportunities, at least at my first job.
I wasn't out as queer and trance because I didn't
feel safe enough, and I felt the impact of being
closeted on my work. I wasn't a to be the
(24:00):
best storyteller that I could be because I had to
hide my queerness and transness, or at least felt I
had to to survive, and that was a problem. So
then it must be true that to be open about
those things would make me a deeper, richer storyteller. And
(24:22):
so then when we think about the James Baldwins and
the Angela Davises and the Ida b Wells Barnett's, you
know who brought their full self to their work in
varying ways. Those are the people I aspire to be,
not the folks that inevitably have told me that my blackness,
(24:47):
transnis queerness in womanhood didn't matter.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
More conversation with Raquel after the Break.
Speaker 4 (25:03):
So by now.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
You've worked in a bunch of different mediums, so magazines,
you've done it in speeches in public capacities, and podcasts,
and I know new podcasts just launched, and just writing
your own book writing essays. I was wondering if you've
seen any sort of differences in how you're able to
(25:30):
move towards this aim of liberation and whatever other goals
you have.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
In your storytelling through these different mediums.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
How does the goalpost or how does how you achieve
those objectives? How does that change as the medium changes?
Speaker 4 (25:48):
Well, I think that with media changes, the technique, the skills,
you know, those kind of things shift, But I don't
think purpose shifts all that much. So if I'm invested
in elevating the honor and dignity of black trans power
(26:08):
and liberation, which I am, then it carries me through
whatever era I'm in, whatever role that I'm in, and
on and on. So in writing, the stories that I
want to share inevitably are connected to observing black transpower
(26:37):
and dreaming of what black transpower can be. Or if
I'm working in podcasting, it's about for instance, Afterlives one
podcast that's focused on the lives we've lost too soon
to violence in the trans community. And so with Leileen
Polanco's story, who was the center of the first season,
(27:00):
we're talking about an Afro Latina trans woman who died
in Riker's custody. This is a black trans story, but
it's also a universal story. It's a story of someone incarcerated,
someone who had epilepsy and schizophrenia, someone who was a
sex worker. She was in ballroom culture, walk in face, honey,
(27:24):
she was all of these different things, but also a
black trans person or with Queer Chronicles. The podcast you
were talking about that just released. This is a podcast
focused on how we can get queer and trans folks
to tell their stories on their own terms. So while
(27:45):
I'm a host of the show, I really feel like
I'm just the facilitator for folks to tell their story
right And this first season focuses on trans Tenes, queer
and trans Tenes, and political battleground states right now in
twenty twenty four, telling their own stories, unfiltered with as
(28:07):
minimal intervention from my MOODI old ass as possible.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
Not molding.
Speaker 4 (28:14):
But there are black trans youth right There's one young
person named Safara, another one named Indigo who is a
part of this larger collective of queer and trans kids
of varying backgrounds and experiences telling their stories in Alabama
(28:35):
and Texas and on and on. So that purpose is
there whatever I do. And so I think that that
figuring out what your purpose is key.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
Yeah, I think there's so much misinformation and disinformation that
media spews that is just you know, necessitates real narratives,
and podcasts are really good at doing that, and it
seems like Queer Chronicles is a perfect example of a
space where people can just tell their own stories. But
I think the thing that's cool about podcasting, and this
(29:11):
kind of podcast specifically, is that it's like in this
tradition of the oral narratives, the Works Progress Administration or
you know, WPA, or it's like a lot of the
times we wouldn't we wouldn't hear those people, we wouldn't
know their stories, and so that's so powerful. But I
also wonder if you think that there are any limitations
(29:32):
of storytelling and how it can lead to collective liberation.
Do you think there are any ways in which storytelling
falls short and can be supplemented with other actions.
Speaker 4 (29:43):
Well, I don't think storytelling falls short when it's rooted
and truth. I think storytelling can be damaging just like
anything else. Right, it's not inherently benevolent. Donald Trump is storyteller.
He's telling a story of power by any means necessary,
(30:07):
on the backs of folks on the margins and that's
not just folks of color and religious minorities and queer
and trans folks and women. That's also a huge part
of his base, poor people, working class people, middle class people.
So storytelling can be used negatively, right. We also see
(30:32):
storytelling being negative when folks aren't curious enough or are
invested in their existing ignorances and fears. We see it
on the Shade Room, right. We see it on other
blog and niche media platforms that will throw up an
(30:57):
image of a queer, trans or in a non conforming person,
or put a baby mama on blast or whatever and
let the audience chip away at that person's humanity. Yeah,
without any kind of intervention, because it's all about engagements
(31:17):
and clicks, and that pulls us away from seeing the
humanity and other black people.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
It's very disturbing, and I think we've been very desensitized
to it at this point.
Speaker 4 (31:28):
We have, so storytelling can be used negatively. I do
think it is a skill that everyone needs to be
able to tap into. It will enrich everyone's lives, no
matter what industry or sector that you're in, to be
able to articulate who you are, your story, your history,
(31:50):
where you hope to go your dreams. That's liberating, and
you're right, it's just one thing we have to be doing.
Other actions have to be invested in material change. We
have to be clear about where resources are going. You know,
there's a reason people are talking about boycotting genocidal regimes
(32:16):
and societies right now, particularly thinking about what's happening to
our Palestinian famine folks in Gaza. I think figuring out
your part in civic duty is key. It's not just
about the presidential election. It is about oftentimes these local
and state elections right where we are seeing a lot
(32:40):
of this damaging legislation being moved, not just around LGBTQ
plus people and keeping transit from being protected in schools,
but we also see the fight against what people are
saying is critical race theory right, which is really a
dog whistle, particularly for black folks other folks of color
(33:01):
from knowing their history in school. So the civic part
is also important as well.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Are there any parts of your story where you feel
like you didn't say enough or you said too much
in your book?
Speaker 4 (33:17):
No, moments of tension and conflict that were major in
the book. I had conversations with those folks, and so
those relationships are intact. I will say I had I
was very anxious to share about moments where I felt violated,
(33:38):
whether it was my body. I also felt anxiety over
talking about difficulties and struggles and shortcomings in the workplace.
You know, this is a capitalist society, right, You're not
supposed to talk about your struggles in the workplace. Really,
You're just supposed to pack your bags and go on
(34:02):
if you can. But I think it's necessary as a
black trans woman to be able to name the ways
that I have felt exploited, either in corporate media or
in nonprofits, and the moments where I felt most complicit
in systems of oppression too, because capitalism requires some kind
(34:26):
of exploitation of something or someone even when we don't
see it.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
That's I like the memoirs where the person ready it
can kind of point to finger at themselves too and
be like, I ain't do everything perfect, you know, because
we've all been complicit in something.
Speaker 3 (34:46):
I ain't all right about what I had, but you know,
I'm telling myself.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
But I really do appreciate the honesty there, because it's
like you can feel so guilty, like damn, like I'm
the worst person in the world. Like no one else
has said that they did this and I did that,
or you know, I was part of this workplace. I
knew I shouldn't been there. I knew I shouldn't have
been the manager there, or you know, telling people this
and that, but you know, I was just doing what
I was told. So I really appreciate it when people can,
(35:12):
you know, do that introspection and say, you know, I've
changed now, I'm different now, but this is what I
was doing back then.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
Now you can have a different understanding and shifting perspective
when you're reading somebody else going through their own internal
processes and be like, maybe I need to rethink that
or change.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
The way I'm doing things and moving.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
And I'm curious too about you use the word truth.
And we talked a little bit about social media earlier
and authenticity and how we can construct these different personas
depending upon the medium that we're expressing ourselves through. What
does what is truth and authenticity to you? You know,
I think this is a kind of an age old
(35:54):
thing that we think about in storytelling. You know, even
like Ida B. Wells had the quote, I can't remember
that exact quote, but around shining the light of truth
on things. What does truth and authenticity mean to you
in general? In storytelling capacity and in telling black stories,
in trans stories and Southern stories.
Speaker 4 (36:16):
I think the most useful or impactful type of truth
to me is the one that is steeped in vulnerability.
I don't know how you really get to authenticity without
valuing vulnerability too, because with vulnerability comes low risk, right
(36:39):
that you know, it is all up in the title
of this book, the risk it takes the bloom, right.
But I think there's risk in showing your fears. There's
risk in showing your anxieties and insecurities. But I think
once those are laid out on the table, then we
really know what we're working with, right, and then may
(37:03):
maybe we have more of an opportunity to utilize those
things as fertilizer, as I say in the epilogue of
the book, to imagine and dream and build something new
and leave something better behind for the next folks. So
for me, that is necessary. What I think about, for instance,
(37:27):
all of these moments of transphobia that we witness of
course in society, but also just in culture in general.
You know, whether it's just hilarious talking about her thoughts
around trans women, but it's really coming from a deep
wounded place of feeling like she's not woman enough or
(37:52):
that her identity has been shredded up because trans people
are demanding that we're respected and treated with honor and dignity.
And she's not the only one that feels that way.
We all know a handful, if not more, of since
(38:13):
women in particular, who feel like trans women threaten their existence.
And then we can also talk about what it's like
for black women who have never been fully respected in
their womanhood in comparison to a white ideal, and what
it means to have someone else right beside them demanding
(38:35):
to be seen and respected to That's a wound, honey,
But that is also a truth that we can't get
to if we hide it behind Oh well, this is
just what I've always known, or I don't want to
know these new things, or no, honey, like, let's figure
out what's at the root of this problem. Or Dave
(38:57):
Chappelle right, it's not really that he thinks trans folks
aren't real or valid. In fact, it's his anxieties about
the truth that we are real and what that may
mean about his masculinity, that he, now in a time
when we're more visible than ever before and discussed more
(39:19):
than ever before, can't ignore us and can't look away.
And so if he, as a cis hat black man,
is perceiving the fact that particularly trans women exists, what
does that mean for him in relation to us? That's
(39:41):
an anxiety, that's a fear. But I think that's the
deeper truth than all the lines of a horrible joke
that he or Just Hilarious could write.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
When you were writing the Risk It Takes a Bloom,
did you have the Just Hilariouses and the Dave Chappelle's
of the world in mind for them to read it
and gain something for it? Or were you like, this
is for the folks who are already in al shit
with the trans community.
Speaker 4 (40:08):
I knew that all types of people would read it.
I don't know that the Just Hilariouses or the Dave
Chappelle's would read it. You know, I wasn't thinking of
them as my audience, right, at least not my core audience.
Maybe they are an audience two three times removed, right,
(40:30):
like a cousin you've never met. But my core audience
has been well. I think probably the most important audience
member is me period. I know, you know, you know
what is it Tony Morrison who says that, you know,
we have to write the stories that we want to see.
(40:54):
For me, as a black trans woman, to imagine myself
as the audience, it's different, it's rare, It's something we
need more of. If I thought about trying to speak
to a particular audience, there's a certain amount of myself
(41:19):
that I would have to dilute down in a race,
because I know that to be black and to be
trans is not the average experience. I am on the
margins of margins, and so to take that power back,
I had to be able to say and care the
(41:39):
most about what I think, but also what black trans
people think, right, because your people know when you own
some bullshit and when you're not, and they're gonna tell
you because they are your people. And so whatever I
can do to honor and be real to my community
(42:04):
about black trans folks, that's what I'm invested at.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
So now it is time for role credits, the segment
where we give credit to a person, place, or thing
that we encountered during the week, and we have our
guests Raquel joining us, But first, Eves, who are.
Speaker 3 (42:22):
What would you like to give credit to?
Speaker 1 (42:23):
So? I think just in general on the show and today,
we've been talking a lot about personal narratives, So I
want to give credit to all of the black writers
and authors in history, and people like Ida b Wells
and the estates of those ancestors families who put their
letters and archives so we're able to read those correspondences
(42:45):
between people like you know, James Baldwin and Ida b
Wells and everybody else who has letters that we can
read today.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
Okay, I would like to give credit to all the
girls celebrating rama. Don you know, I think Islam is
a beautiful religion, and you know, folks be lying on
the Muslims all the time, and I believe what they
say about y'all. I know y'all peaceful, and I know
(43:13):
you've been going through it.
Speaker 4 (43:14):
And I rock with y'all.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
For Raquel, who are what would you like to give
credit to?
Speaker 4 (43:20):
I want to give credit to a friend, Tourmaline, a
powerful black trans filmmaker and activists. She's in the Whitney Biennial.
She has this film called Pollinator, and it draws on
the enduring legacy of Marsha P. Johnson and the flower
(43:41):
crowns that she used to wear. And I just think
that her work is just beautiful and a lot of
us would not be having the conversations we have about
Marsha P. Johnson or Sylvia Rivera without some of the
archival work that Tourmaline has been crucial in uncovering.
Speaker 2 (44:01):
So oh, I gotta check that come out. Thank you
for letting us know about that, and thank you for
joining us. It was so great talking to you.
Speaker 4 (44:09):
Yeah, thank y'all for these insightful questions.
Speaker 1 (44:13):
Thank you, and is there anything you'll want to shout out?
And can you also tell us where they can find
you on social media?
Speaker 4 (44:20):
Yeah, you can find me at rockel Willis on all
platforms rockel Willis dot com. And the book is The
Risk It Takes The Bloom on Life and Liberation. The
audiobook is out now, so check it out. And then
the two podcasts we mentioned, one is Queer Chronicles and
(44:40):
the other is Afterlives. These are available wherever you get podcasts.
Speaker 2 (44:46):
Nice thank you, Raquel, thank you tuning in to those shows.
And with that, we will see you next week.
Speaker 1 (44:53):
File On then is a production of Heart Radio and
Fairweather Friends Media. This episode was written by Eves, Jeffco
and Katie Mitchell. It was edited and produced by Tari Harrison.
Follow us on Instagram at on Themeshow. You can also
send us an email at hello at on Theme dot Show.
(45:17):
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