February 15, 2024 • 28 mins
A new documentary — As We Speak — explores the weaponization of rap lyrics in the legal system, shedding light on using artistic expression as evidence in criminal trials.
Directed by J.M. Harper and featuring hip-hop artist Kemba as a guide and character, the film delves into how rap lyrics have been used in court, examining the impact of this practice on the music industry and its artists.
Yves and Katie caught up with J.M. and Kemba to talk to them about As We Speak and the implications of criminalizing an art form.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media.
(00:24):
Imagine if artists were held criminally liable for the lines
they said or acts they portrayed while making.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Art, like if Jason Bateman was convicted for money laundering
for his role as Marty in the TV series Ozark.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Or if police hurt Carrie Underwood singing about taking a
Louisville slugger to the headlights of her Cheetah Man's car
and put out a warrant for her arrest.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
As the ysl Rico trial in Atlanta continues, Rapper Young
Thug doesn't have to imagine happening tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Rapper Young Thug and his co defendants in the ysl
Rico trial will be Young Thug is accused of leading
a violent street gang, and prosecutors are using his song
lyrics as evidence.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
He is the one they're all afraid of.
Speaker 4 (01:02):
He's the one that's King Swan.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
But Young Thug isn't the first rapper to get caught
in the cross hairs of the weaponization of rap lyrics.
One of the earliest and most commonly cited cases is
the nineteen ninety one Foster case, where a Seventh Circuit
Appeals Court upheld the conviction of Derek Foster, whose prosecution
relied on rap lyrics he wrote about drugs and narcotics trafficking.
Another early high profile example was Snoop Dogg's nineteen ninety
(01:27):
three murder trial.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
We the jury and above and tile action.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Finally, defendant Calvin Brod is not guilty of the crime
of murder in the first degree.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
However, it was the people Versus Olgein case in nineteen
ninety four that arguably had the biggest influence on the
use of this tactic. In this case, Cesar Javier Olgein
and Francisco called ro Mora were convicted and the prosecution
used rap lyrics as evidence.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Prosecutors in the aforementioned cases held the same views as
Fanie Willis Holden County, Georgia's district attorneys.
Speaker 5 (01:58):
Don't confess to climbs on rap lyrics if you do
not want them used, or at least get out of
my account.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
These cases mark the beginning of a controversial legal trend
where rap lyrics were used as evidence in criminal trials,
sparking debates about racial stereotypes, First Amendment rights, and the
potential bias against rap music and its artists. I'm Eves
and I'm Katie. Today's episode Rhyme and Punishment.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
A new documentary, As We Speak explores the weaponization of
rap lyrics in the legal system, shedding light on the
use of artistic expression as evidence in criminal trials. Directed
by Jason Harper and featuring hip hop artists Kimba as
a guide and character, the film delves into the ways
in which rap lyrics have been used in court, examining
(02:42):
the impact of this practice on the music industry and
its artists.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
Hi Kenva Hi.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
Kimva was going on Yes we Can Perfect, and we got.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
A chance to catch up with Jason and Kimba to
talk to them about as we Speak and the implications
of criminalizing in art form. So the beginning of As
we Speak, we saw you Kimba in the archives looking
at the criminalization but also like the demonization of black
(03:14):
music from slave songs to blues to rock enroll and
now wrap. And I think going into the documentary, you
can feel like, oh, this is like a really new phenomenon,
especially being in Atlanta. We're seeing what's happening with the
but it's the act of policing black expression is really
quite old. So like, how did both of you feel
about that connection, that historical connection when you're making this
(03:38):
film and like unraveling all these details.
Speaker 5 (03:41):
Yeah, I mean that was one of the first scenes
in my mind that was really crystal clear. And it
started from when I found these Dutch slave trader journals
from sixteen seventy that said, we can hear the Africans
communicating on the slave ship on the Middle Passage that
they had written. We can hear them communicating, but we
(04:02):
don't know what they're saying. We don't understand, And that
to me sounded like exactly what was happening in courtrooms today.
And so I thought, if we went back and looked
at every single uniquely black genre from then all the
way to today, how many other times did that happen?
And it turned out that didn't happen every single with
every single genre that the black community had had created.
(04:26):
And then it was no surprise that we're experiencing what
we're experiencing right now with hip hop.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
Even with jazz, there wasn't there's no words the bay
and I jazz I was like, all right, what is
this really about?
Speaker 4 (04:39):
You know?
Speaker 5 (04:39):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (04:40):
And I the quote we can hear what they're saying,
but we don't understand. And when people are in the
courtroom like oh, like the example of like making a killings, like, well,
clearly that means you're making a lot of money. Yeah,
But when you have a jury of maybe mostly white
people and a judge that's white, and a prosecutor who's white,
and you know, the big scary black man who said
(05:01):
he's making a killing, do you think it is like
really like misinterpretation or just like refusing like willful ignorance,
refusing to understand.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
I think that's a really big question. Like I think
part of it is the idea of like they don't
respect us enough to think that we can speak in
metaphor that we can see it. They don't. They don't
see what we do is are And another part of
it is just how effective of a tool it is,
(05:34):
Like it doesn't even matter. It gets the job done,
and so they're going to use.
Speaker 5 (05:37):
It, you know why. I try to understand, And the
answer for them is there's there's no reason too it's working,
then don't question it.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
Yeah, it seems like it's kind of like a magic
bullet when you get into the courtroom and you hear
these lyrics because when you like, when it's not over
a beat, when just like some you know, uptight.
Speaker 4 (05:57):
White guys really get your life, they really kill the
folks out here right right right.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
And that came up in the film when they were
talking about the difference they were doing the study and
reading the differences between one genre of music and how
that came out and versus how people were able to
understand and then a different genre of music.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Can y'all talk about the Batman Blunder study? Describe it
and then describe like the not so surprising results.
Speaker 5 (06:23):
Yeah. The study was done by a professor named Adam
Dunbar who took the same set of lyrics, the same
lyric which is from a song called Badman's Plunder. Well
early when he evening out rolling around, I was even
a kind of mean a shot to get the d
down from nineteen sixty like the whole kind of country
(06:45):
folk song. But he showed it to people, and he
showed it to three different groups. One group he said
that these lyrics are wrapped, one group he said these
lyrics are country, and one group he said these lyrics
are heavy metal. And depending on the group, they all
interpreted the same set of lyrics differently in relation to
(07:09):
whether or not they felt that the singer or the
artist behind the lyrics was more prone to violence. Meant
what they said literally is supposed to figuratively, et cetera.
And Kim I can tell you kind of what the
result of that was.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
Yeah, I mean, it's exactly what you would think it
would be. People people thought that when when they thought
the lyrics were by black artists, they were hip hop artists,
they saw it as more violent, they saw they saw
the art as less of an art like they thought
the artist was more likely to actually do those things.
(07:49):
And it just speaks to the subconscious biases that people
have and how that can play in the courtroom. It's
like when when you're reading the lyrics to a jury
that see, you know, the big scary black man, or
a judge that doesn't see himself in the person, like
(08:10):
he doesn't see like his grandkids, his nephew in the person.
And when the lyrics are sometimes the only evidence you
get to see how effective it is, it's still extremely effective.
Speaker 4 (08:27):
You know.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Yeah, It's like you're always trying to convince people who
see you as an other who see you as an
outsider of your humanity because it so often takes like
exactly what you said of I see something of myself
in you are something that I know that I can
relate to that is more human, which often ends up
being a family member before somebody is able to even
(08:49):
form or any sort of connection or empathy. That becomes
very clear in this case, right, Yeah, And.
Speaker 5 (08:55):
That's empirical too, like in the UK, especially if they've
done studies with judges and studies that measure what type
of sentencing, the harshness of the sentencing with white judges,
with white accused people have been accused of crimes versus
black people who have been accused of crimes, and there's
(09:17):
a huge disparity with as you might expect, the the
young black men who are charged of the same crimes
are receiving much heavier punishments. And it's exactly because of that.
There's not there's not a built in empathy there. And
then there's of course, you know, four hundred plus years
(09:37):
of institutionalized racism and literal institutions, but also just programmed
into the culture that they're not aware of or theoretically
they're not aware of that that's kind of programmed into
the way that they see the world and see people.
So it's a it's a lot to fight against an
(09:57):
almost impossible to fight when you land in that.
Speaker 6 (10:07):
We'll be back with Jason and Kimba after the break.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
What do you think it is that it makes it
hard for people to separate the art from the artists
with rat that's.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
A complicated thing too. The idea is to make people
feel like you're real, you know, like like if we
don't think an artists is real, then we sort of
respect them less. And it's not really the same in movies,
you know, we know that there's a director, we know
that somebody wrote the script, and other art forms not
(10:43):
really the same. But and then even in other genres,
it's not such a focal point.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Did you find that you had any sort of deepening
of your love and care for the art or for
all of the people who came before you in hearing
these stories about people who were unished so wrongfully.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
Totally, it's difficult to talk to Max Fiffs from your story.
Speaker 6 (11:06):
Mac McKinley Phipps Jr. Was convicted of manslaughter in two
thousand and one after a prosecutor.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
Not fixed, you know, empathetic, you know, like somebody that
lost twenty one years of his life for a crime
he didn't commit and somebody even confessed to it. It's like,
that's heartbreaking. And I learned that of course, like these
(11:35):
big cases, big profile cases like young thugs, are important,
and but there's so many other people that aren't like
huge profile cases that might be in a small city,
might be doesn't have a million dollar lawyer, doesn't have
the people to speak up for them, that they don't
(11:55):
really have a chance when when this magic bullet like
you said, is introduced, Uh, it could be the owns.
Like I said before, it could be the only evidence
that they use, and you can still you can still
get put away for it.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
And so it definitely deepened my passion. I was just like,
we should be able to say, you know, we should
be able to create the art that we that we
want to create.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
You know, and with mac Fipps, they spliced together lyrics
from two different songs. There's no physical evidence. So his
really hit me. It just seemed like just so deeply unfair.
It was like a very visceral reaction I had. Do
you decide not to say certain things in your songs
based on just like the climate of how lyrics have
(12:41):
been weaponized, not at all.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
I think since learning all of this, I've gone even
deeper into uh, you know, using metaphor just to show
how ridiculous it all this, you know, just to really
exercise that right. But yeah, I feel like once you
start to sort of censor yourself and not just water
(13:06):
down the art and people don't really want to hear that,
I feel like people could, people could tell when you're
not being your true self.
Speaker 4 (13:13):
Mm hmmm, you're like thinking about how others are gonna Yeah, yeah,
watching your back and all that stuff.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Yeah, you know you went to the Bronx Chicago, Atlanta, La, London.
I don't even think about rap when I think about London.
Speaker 6 (13:28):
Oh really, I do.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
They fun.
Speaker 6 (13:33):
Listen to a lot of.
Speaker 4 (13:34):
Uk up Atlanta's Supremacist Child. But my question.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Is, because you we saw that lyrics have been used
in like over seven hundred cases, and those are just
the ones that you know haven't been pleted out. Do
we see this same phenomenon happening in countries that are
a majority black, for instance, like Nigeria or Jamaica. Is
it the same type of thing going on, or is
it like you know, United States, United Kingdom.
Speaker 5 (14:08):
I shot a documentary in Senegal which is about about
the student riots that are happening at the only public
university there, and there's this really vibrant hip hop movement,
underground hip hop movement that was happening, which is like
the main place that the students were able to vocalize
their descent in a way that could spread. And it
was very kind of anti anti the government forces that
(14:33):
were pressing them, but it's a for them. It was
a much more kind of direct physical thing, like it's
not like we're going to lock you up three lyrics,
We're going to beat you or kill you. And so
that it's difficult because we're what Kim and I are
kind of exploring in this documentary is the criminal justice system,
which has its own issues obviously, but in other places
(14:55):
in Africa, it's a very it's a very different pl dynamic.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
There are a lot more insidious things that people can
do with technology. So do you see any sort of
anything around technology coming up in these cases that has
been interesting to you?
Speaker 5 (15:18):
When evidence is brought into a courtroom, everything is stripped
away except for the words and so they just used
the lyrics in this case like the way the music
was created or any It's like it's almost like they
are the technology that's flessing things together and it becomes
this really kind of I don't know what the word is,
(15:40):
like lunite process, where you're just like, I'm going to
take citors and cut this out and put it together
with that and say that that's what happened. And they're
talking to juries, which they're kind of making it for
the lowest common denominator. The court room is just a
totally different place than reality, and we saw that here
and we also saw them then where the theatricality of
(16:01):
it is like crank to eleven and they're wearing wigs.
The judge is wearing, you know, a big gray wig
like from the seventeen hundreds or something. Everyone's dressed differently.
The place that you're seated as a defendant. It's like
you're turned an opposite way from everybody else. It's like
the architecture of the court room. It's a totally different world.
This fear all the world's of stage. It's like you're
(16:24):
out there on a stage as a rap artist, but
then you walk into a different room and you're not
on the stage anymore. Where it's still the stage and
the prosecutors on stage, and they're going to use their tools,
they're going to use those lyrics and we their artistry
around it.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
In a way like music videos are brought into coot
cass to sort of show you could be you could
be like an extra part of that somebody's onsage or whatever,
be seen in a music video and then be sort
of implicated in the same crimes. They'll say you're in
the gang with them. And as we know, cameras are
(17:05):
everywhere now like we and we film everything, so it's
easier than ever to show that you know somebody or
you're in the same place as somebody. And so in
that way, the way we use technology, I guess see
getting people into a lot of trouble. I'm interested in
seeing in the future how AI plays into all this.
Imagine all the all the fake songs that they try
(17:27):
to enter into it into.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Okay, so do you think prosecutors are all worried about
public safety or is it purely theater?
Speaker 5 (17:42):
The way that the way that it's been describes me
not not well. The way that Jay Z ever jay
Z put it, it is just like prosecutor, doesn't The
prosecutor is just in a job. It's just a ninety
five unlike public defenders, like who are you know? These
are like amazing lawyers are choosing to do like the
most difficult job. And we had many public public defenders
(18:03):
come up to us after the screenings and say, like,
you nailed it, You got it exactly right. This is
what I had these conversations, like we are public defenders
in New York and we had this exact conversation with
defendants every week and thank you. We just feel seen
for the first time. So like public defenders are like
these basically basically killer lawyers who are basically social workers
(18:24):
who are who are doing the best they can in
the system, which is totally as a David and alive situation.
But the prosecutors, this is it's a ninety five job.
Like their job is to convict if they can, if
they win, then then they get promoted, maybe eventually get
to be a DA. Maybe maybe you go into politics.
Uh Kamala Harris for example, like how do you get
(18:44):
to be that VP? You you earned your earned well,
you made your way there by climbing up the ladder
on what is basically like a corporate system. And so
to them, it doesn't matter if the tools available will
use it, and so whether or not they care is
I think I'm not even brought into it. In order
for the criminal justice system to work, you have to
(19:05):
have attorneys who're going to just do the job of
defending whoever's right in front of them, regardless of guilt
or innocence, And so prosecutors are doing the same thing.
Who's next on the docket, Okay, my job is to convict. Okay,
so they're going to convict. I don't think the morality
of it even comes into the court system. It's such
a strange world. It doesn't matter if it's right or
(19:27):
wrong justice. It's not about justice.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
I was wondering if you have any moments that stood
out with you from audience members who consume rap who
had no idea about this.
Speaker 6 (19:38):
Maybe if there was a moment.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Where they were like, I thought that once that these
people were criminals in their lyrics, and this completely shed
light on all of that.
Speaker 5 (19:48):
Yeah, you'd be shocked. I've seen total conversions happen, especially later.
What people who I would know before and after story
is about oftentimes like parents of people who came people
from a different generation who just didn't even care to
understand hip hop, who thought one way before they watched
the film, and then just had a total one eighty
watching the film. And to me, it's kind of impossible
(20:12):
not to have that experience. I felt like we're going
into it with Kimba. It's like, of course, you could
make like an hour and a half doc on the
mac Phipps case, for sure, but he's had like twenty
different news specials and maybe more than that actually about him,
and people still haven't heard about what happened, and those
are new specials going out to millions and millions and
(20:32):
millions of people, and so it's like, you know, people
won't sit down and listen to this story in a
way that's just kind of giving you a talking head interview.
We had to make the documentary like a song and
kind of wrap you up into it, and that's how
you can come out the other side having a one
to eighty change. Because if you can truly see it
through Kemba's eyes, through the eyes of the artist, then
(20:53):
I don't know how you can see it the other way.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
More with Jason and Kimba after the break. Do you
think either of you do you think that the criminalization
of rap has implications beyond rap lyrics.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
I think we've we've started to see it on social media,
just the idea that the things that you say could
either be silence taken down, or you know, it could
have people. I think we're all I think we're all
sort of being watched to a certain degree and being
censored to a certain degree. And I think rap right
(21:37):
now is just the sort of most extreme form of it,
and I feel like it's it's a sort of dystopian
way of seeing life. But I do think it's possible
that I can get that way for everyone.
Speaker 5 (21:50):
Yeah, I think that's where tools are tested, is on
the most formal populations and then their scales.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
Yeah, that'd be so cool if you can see the
through line of as we speak, and then it's like, you.
Speaker 4 (22:02):
Know, oh, actually, I feel like it would be crazy.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Knew Jim Crow had that impact where it didn't stop
mass incarceration, but people really knew about it more and
were like against it.
Speaker 6 (22:17):
It swung the consensus.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
Yeah, sure, and that's important, Like that's the first step
to so many things.
Speaker 6 (22:23):
It's changing people's mindset about something.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
And I also really think, even outside of all of
the legal stuff, just the emphasis that this places on
the sophistication of rap, because rap is an art form.
Speaker 6 (22:35):
Like the fact that these people are.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Taking these lyrics and misconstruing them, I'm like, are you
are you thinking?
Speaker 6 (22:42):
Do you have a brain at all?
Speaker 1 (22:44):
But I think it just shows how so many people
try to minimize the artistry of rap and what it
does for people, and how it's poetry, and how it
can be used in so many different forms, and how
it has a legacy in so many of these other
genres that Black people ate it that we're specifically about
resilience and specifically about resistance, and this is like y'all
(23:06):
doing all of this for some rap. Clearly it's something
that is impactful to people. Clearly they understand the power
of it.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Yeah, it reminds me of David Banner speaking in front
of Congress or he was saying.
Speaker 7 (23:18):
How statistics will never show the positive side of rap
because statistics don't reflect what you don't do, if you
don't commit a murder or a crime.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
When you see people going so hard at a particular
art form, whether it's rap, whether it's you know, books
that talk about racism.
Speaker 6 (23:36):
It's like you're telling on yourself.
Speaker 4 (23:38):
You're telling on yourself.
Speaker 5 (23:41):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Now it's time for Roll Credits, the segment where we
give credit to a person, place, or thing that we've
encountered during the week, and we have our guests Jason
and Kimba joining us. But first, Eves, who are what
would you like to give credit to today?
Speaker 1 (24:02):
I want to give credit to black hair stylists.
Speaker 6 (24:04):
They are miracle workers. They are sent from God.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
I have had very interesting experience, it's very varied experiences
with black hair stylists, and honestly, I've been burned like
literally and figuratively literally and figuratively child So when you
find someone who actually does well, it feels so affirming.
But also just in general, I'm thankful for black hairstylists,
(24:29):
Like it's something that is a profession, but like also
just has like a deep familial and intimate history in
black life. I was thinking about how when I was
a child, I went to the neighborhood person who took
that hot comb, put it on the stove, and then
put it on my head. And I didn't really care
for the experience, but you know it's love, like it's
loved somebody put in their hands in your head and
(24:51):
like you know, doing this work, in this magic.
Speaker 6 (24:54):
So I really shout out to black hair stylists.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
I really would love to give credit to them doing
your thing.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
There we go, Jason, who are what would you like
to give credit to?
Speaker 5 (25:06):
I will just give credit to my two year old
daughter just because she Yeah, life, this is crazy. Just look
at this human being and just everything either it doesn't
matter or becomes clear or everything matters in a way
that can be just accepted. And so yeah, just watching
her sleep this morning. Maybe thank yeah, thankful, thank for her.
Speaker 4 (25:31):
How about you, Kim? Who are what would you like
to give credit to?
Speaker 3 (25:34):
You know what, I'm going to give credit to my boy,
my leak Jonathan.
Speaker 5 (25:39):
Oh.
Speaker 3 (25:40):
This movie literally would not have been possible without Paramount
and he he saw through the whole thing.
Speaker 5 (25:49):
He was on the ground with a pod project wouldn't.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Be possible without all right, all right, Malik Johnson, we
see you. I would like to give credit to the
Georgia Archives. They have a lot of information about different
Atlanta history, Georgia history, and there's so much stuff like
in boxes in archives that if you never go look
at them, and if someone doesn't like take them out
(26:15):
of those boxes, the general public will never know these stories.
And I was reminded of about that when I saw
kimbat in the archives looking at the different histories of
black music, and so it was just a reminder to
like visit your local archives, see what they got going on,
even if you don't consider yourself a researcher or academic, Like,
it's for everybody. Your taxes pay for it anyway, so
(26:37):
go hit them up. So how can folks keep up
with y'all?
Speaker 5 (26:40):
The film premie Years in New York's New York Streing
February twentieth, and then it comes out on Paramount Plus
on the February twenty seven. And yeah, that's the way
to reach me. And it's been great to see people
see back of the problem. It's just on Instagram at
jam Harper for me.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
Yeah, hit me on any social media platform at Kimberland,
come stay with us up.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Thank you, thank you so much, thanks for joining us.
I really enjoyed this conversation in the documentary, of course.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
Yes, looking forward to more people watching it and learning
from it.
Speaker 3 (27:18):
Thank you guys, this is fun.
Speaker 5 (27:19):
Thanks for having us. Thank you, Bye base.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
If this conversation has sparked your interest, we encourage you
to watch As We Speak, which comes out on February
twenty seventh on Paramount Plus. On Theme is a production
of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media. This episode was written
by Eves, Jeffco and Katie Mitchell. It was edited and
produced by Tari Harrison. Follow us on Instagram.
Speaker 6 (27:46):
At on Theme Show. You can also send us.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
An email at hello at on Theme dot show. Head
to on Theme dot Show to check out the show
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(00:24):
Imagine if artists were held criminally liable for the lines
they said or acts they portrayed while making.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Art, like if Jason Bateman was convicted for money laundering
for his role as Marty in the TV series Ozark.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Or if police hurt Carrie Underwood singing about taking a
Louisville slugger to the headlights of her Cheetah Man's car
and put out a warrant for her arrest.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
As the ysl Rico trial in Atlanta continues, Rapper Young
Thug doesn't have to imagine happening tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Rapper Young Thug and his co defendants in the ysl
Rico trial will be Young Thug is accused of leading
a violent street gang, and prosecutors are using his song
lyrics as evidence.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
He is the one they're all afraid of.
Speaker 4 (01:02):
He's the one that's King Swan.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
But Young Thug isn't the first rapper to get caught
in the cross hairs of the weaponization of rap lyrics.
One of the earliest and most commonly cited cases is
the nineteen ninety one Foster case, where a Seventh Circuit
Appeals Court upheld the conviction of Derek Foster, whose prosecution
relied on rap lyrics he wrote about drugs and narcotics trafficking.
Another early high profile example was Snoop Dogg's nineteen ninety
(01:27):
three murder trial.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
We the jury and above and tile action.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Finally, defendant Calvin Brod is not guilty of the crime
of murder in the first degree.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
However, it was the people Versus Olgein case in nineteen
ninety four that arguably had the biggest influence on the
use of this tactic. In this case, Cesar Javier Olgein
and Francisco called ro Mora were convicted and the prosecution
used rap lyrics as evidence.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Prosecutors in the aforementioned cases held the same views as
Fanie Willis Holden County, Georgia's district attorneys.
Speaker 5 (01:58):
Don't confess to climbs on rap lyrics if you do
not want them used, or at least get out of
my account.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
These cases mark the beginning of a controversial legal trend
where rap lyrics were used as evidence in criminal trials,
sparking debates about racial stereotypes, First Amendment rights, and the
potential bias against rap music and its artists. I'm Eves
and I'm Katie. Today's episode Rhyme and Punishment.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
A new documentary, As We Speak explores the weaponization of
rap lyrics in the legal system, shedding light on the
use of artistic expression as evidence in criminal trials. Directed
by Jason Harper and featuring hip hop artists Kimba as
a guide and character, the film delves into the ways
in which rap lyrics have been used in court, examining
(02:42):
the impact of this practice on the music industry and
its artists.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
Hi Kenva Hi.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
Kimva was going on Yes we Can Perfect, and we got.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
A chance to catch up with Jason and Kimba to
talk to them about as we Speak and the implications
of criminalizing in art form. So the beginning of As
we Speak, we saw you Kimba in the archives looking
at the criminalization but also like the demonization of black
(03:14):
music from slave songs to blues to rock enroll and
now wrap. And I think going into the documentary, you
can feel like, oh, this is like a really new phenomenon,
especially being in Atlanta. We're seeing what's happening with the
but it's the act of policing black expression is really
quite old. So like, how did both of you feel
about that connection, that historical connection when you're making this
(03:38):
film and like unraveling all these details.
Speaker 5 (03:41):
Yeah, I mean that was one of the first scenes
in my mind that was really crystal clear. And it
started from when I found these Dutch slave trader journals
from sixteen seventy that said, we can hear the Africans
communicating on the slave ship on the Middle Passage that
they had written. We can hear them communicating, but we
(04:02):
don't know what they're saying. We don't understand, And that
to me sounded like exactly what was happening in courtrooms today.
And so I thought, if we went back and looked
at every single uniquely black genre from then all the
way to today, how many other times did that happen?
And it turned out that didn't happen every single with
every single genre that the black community had had created.
(04:26):
And then it was no surprise that we're experiencing what
we're experiencing right now with hip hop.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
Even with jazz, there wasn't there's no words the bay
and I jazz I was like, all right, what is
this really about?
Speaker 4 (04:39):
You know?
Speaker 5 (04:39):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (04:40):
And I the quote we can hear what they're saying,
but we don't understand. And when people are in the
courtroom like oh, like the example of like making a killings, like, well,
clearly that means you're making a lot of money. Yeah,
But when you have a jury of maybe mostly white
people and a judge that's white, and a prosecutor who's white,
and you know, the big scary black man who said
(05:01):
he's making a killing, do you think it is like
really like misinterpretation or just like refusing like willful ignorance,
refusing to understand.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
I think that's a really big question. Like I think
part of it is the idea of like they don't
respect us enough to think that we can speak in
metaphor that we can see it. They don't. They don't
see what we do is are And another part of
it is just how effective of a tool it is,
(05:34):
Like it doesn't even matter. It gets the job done,
and so they're going to use.
Speaker 5 (05:37):
It, you know why. I try to understand, And the
answer for them is there's there's no reason too it's working,
then don't question it.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
Yeah, it seems like it's kind of like a magic
bullet when you get into the courtroom and you hear
these lyrics because when you like, when it's not over
a beat, when just like some you know, uptight.
Speaker 4 (05:57):
White guys really get your life, they really kill the
folks out here right right right.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
And that came up in the film when they were
talking about the difference they were doing the study and
reading the differences between one genre of music and how
that came out and versus how people were able to
understand and then a different genre of music.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Can y'all talk about the Batman Blunder study? Describe it
and then describe like the not so surprising results.
Speaker 5 (06:23):
Yeah. The study was done by a professor named Adam
Dunbar who took the same set of lyrics, the same
lyric which is from a song called Badman's Plunder. Well
early when he evening out rolling around, I was even
a kind of mean a shot to get the d
down from nineteen sixty like the whole kind of country
(06:45):
folk song. But he showed it to people, and he
showed it to three different groups. One group he said
that these lyrics are wrapped, one group he said these
lyrics are country, and one group he said these lyrics
are heavy metal. And depending on the group, they all
interpreted the same set of lyrics differently in relation to
(07:09):
whether or not they felt that the singer or the
artist behind the lyrics was more prone to violence. Meant
what they said literally is supposed to figuratively, et cetera.
And Kim I can tell you kind of what the
result of that was.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
Yeah, I mean, it's exactly what you would think it
would be. People people thought that when when they thought
the lyrics were by black artists, they were hip hop artists,
they saw it as more violent, they saw they saw
the art as less of an art like they thought
the artist was more likely to actually do those things.
(07:49):
And it just speaks to the subconscious biases that people
have and how that can play in the courtroom. It's
like when when you're reading the lyrics to a jury
that see, you know, the big scary black man, or
a judge that doesn't see himself in the person, like
(08:10):
he doesn't see like his grandkids, his nephew in the person.
And when the lyrics are sometimes the only evidence you
get to see how effective it is, it's still extremely effective.
Speaker 4 (08:27):
You know.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Yeah, It's like you're always trying to convince people who
see you as an other who see you as an
outsider of your humanity because it so often takes like
exactly what you said of I see something of myself
in you are something that I know that I can
relate to that is more human, which often ends up
being a family member before somebody is able to even
(08:49):
form or any sort of connection or empathy. That becomes
very clear in this case, right, Yeah, And.
Speaker 5 (08:55):
That's empirical too, like in the UK, especially if they've
done studies with judges and studies that measure what type
of sentencing, the harshness of the sentencing with white judges,
with white accused people have been accused of crimes versus
black people who have been accused of crimes, and there's
(09:17):
a huge disparity with as you might expect, the the
young black men who are charged of the same crimes
are receiving much heavier punishments. And it's exactly because of that.
There's not there's not a built in empathy there. And
then there's of course, you know, four hundred plus years
(09:37):
of institutionalized racism and literal institutions, but also just programmed
into the culture that they're not aware of or theoretically
they're not aware of that that's kind of programmed into
the way that they see the world and see people.
So it's a it's a lot to fight against an
(09:57):
almost impossible to fight when you land in that.
Speaker 6 (10:07):
We'll be back with Jason and Kimba after the break.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
What do you think it is that it makes it
hard for people to separate the art from the artists
with rat that's.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
A complicated thing too. The idea is to make people
feel like you're real, you know, like like if we
don't think an artists is real, then we sort of
respect them less. And it's not really the same in movies,
you know, we know that there's a director, we know
that somebody wrote the script, and other art forms not
(10:43):
really the same. But and then even in other genres,
it's not such a focal point.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Did you find that you had any sort of deepening
of your love and care for the art or for
all of the people who came before you in hearing
these stories about people who were unished so wrongfully.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
Totally, it's difficult to talk to Max Fiffs from your story.
Speaker 6 (11:06):
Mac McKinley Phipps Jr. Was convicted of manslaughter in two
thousand and one after a prosecutor.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
Not fixed, you know, empathetic, you know, like somebody that
lost twenty one years of his life for a crime
he didn't commit and somebody even confessed to it. It's like,
that's heartbreaking. And I learned that of course, like these
(11:35):
big cases, big profile cases like young thugs, are important,
and but there's so many other people that aren't like
huge profile cases that might be in a small city,
might be doesn't have a million dollar lawyer, doesn't have
the people to speak up for them, that they don't
(11:55):
really have a chance when when this magic bullet like
you said, is introduced, Uh, it could be the owns.
Like I said before, it could be the only evidence
that they use, and you can still you can still
get put away for it.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
And so it definitely deepened my passion. I was just like,
we should be able to say, you know, we should
be able to create the art that we that we
want to create.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
You know, and with mac Fipps, they spliced together lyrics
from two different songs. There's no physical evidence. So his
really hit me. It just seemed like just so deeply unfair.
It was like a very visceral reaction I had. Do
you decide not to say certain things in your songs
based on just like the climate of how lyrics have
(12:41):
been weaponized, not at all.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
I think since learning all of this, I've gone even
deeper into uh, you know, using metaphor just to show
how ridiculous it all this, you know, just to really
exercise that right. But yeah, I feel like once you
start to sort of censor yourself and not just water
(13:06):
down the art and people don't really want to hear that,
I feel like people could, people could tell when you're
not being your true self.
Speaker 4 (13:13):
Mm hmmm, you're like thinking about how others are gonna Yeah, yeah,
watching your back and all that stuff.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Yeah, you know you went to the Bronx Chicago, Atlanta, La, London.
I don't even think about rap when I think about London.
Speaker 6 (13:28):
Oh really, I do.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
They fun.
Speaker 6 (13:33):
Listen to a lot of.
Speaker 4 (13:34):
Uk up Atlanta's Supremacist Child. But my question.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Is, because you we saw that lyrics have been used
in like over seven hundred cases, and those are just
the ones that you know haven't been pleted out. Do
we see this same phenomenon happening in countries that are
a majority black, for instance, like Nigeria or Jamaica. Is
it the same type of thing going on, or is
it like you know, United States, United Kingdom.
Speaker 5 (14:08):
I shot a documentary in Senegal which is about about
the student riots that are happening at the only public
university there, and there's this really vibrant hip hop movement,
underground hip hop movement that was happening, which is like
the main place that the students were able to vocalize
their descent in a way that could spread. And it
was very kind of anti anti the government forces that
(14:33):
were pressing them, but it's a for them. It was
a much more kind of direct physical thing, like it's
not like we're going to lock you up three lyrics,
We're going to beat you or kill you. And so
that it's difficult because we're what Kim and I are
kind of exploring in this documentary is the criminal justice system,
which has its own issues obviously, but in other places
(14:55):
in Africa, it's a very it's a very different pl dynamic.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
There are a lot more insidious things that people can
do with technology. So do you see any sort of
anything around technology coming up in these cases that has
been interesting to you?
Speaker 5 (15:18):
When evidence is brought into a courtroom, everything is stripped
away except for the words and so they just used
the lyrics in this case like the way the music
was created or any It's like it's almost like they
are the technology that's flessing things together and it becomes
this really kind of I don't know what the word is,
(15:40):
like lunite process, where you're just like, I'm going to
take citors and cut this out and put it together
with that and say that that's what happened. And they're
talking to juries, which they're kind of making it for
the lowest common denominator. The court room is just a
totally different place than reality, and we saw that here
and we also saw them then where the theatricality of
(16:01):
it is like crank to eleven and they're wearing wigs.
The judge is wearing, you know, a big gray wig
like from the seventeen hundreds or something. Everyone's dressed differently.
The place that you're seated as a defendant. It's like
you're turned an opposite way from everybody else. It's like
the architecture of the court room. It's a totally different world.
This fear all the world's of stage. It's like you're
(16:24):
out there on a stage as a rap artist, but
then you walk into a different room and you're not
on the stage anymore. Where it's still the stage and
the prosecutors on stage, and they're going to use their tools,
they're going to use those lyrics and we their artistry
around it.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
In a way like music videos are brought into coot
cass to sort of show you could be you could
be like an extra part of that somebody's onsage or whatever,
be seen in a music video and then be sort
of implicated in the same crimes. They'll say you're in
the gang with them. And as we know, cameras are
(17:05):
everywhere now like we and we film everything, so it's
easier than ever to show that you know somebody or
you're in the same place as somebody. And so in
that way, the way we use technology, I guess see
getting people into a lot of trouble. I'm interested in
seeing in the future how AI plays into all this.
Imagine all the all the fake songs that they try
(17:27):
to enter into it into.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Okay, so do you think prosecutors are all worried about
public safety or is it purely theater?
Speaker 5 (17:42):
The way that the way that it's been describes me
not not well. The way that Jay Z ever jay
Z put it, it is just like prosecutor, doesn't The
prosecutor is just in a job. It's just a ninety
five unlike public defenders, like who are you know? These
are like amazing lawyers are choosing to do like the
most difficult job. And we had many public public defenders
(18:03):
come up to us after the screenings and say, like,
you nailed it, You got it exactly right. This is
what I had these conversations, like we are public defenders
in New York and we had this exact conversation with
defendants every week and thank you. We just feel seen
for the first time. So like public defenders are like
these basically basically killer lawyers who are basically social workers
(18:24):
who are who are doing the best they can in
the system, which is totally as a David and alive situation.
But the prosecutors, this is it's a ninety five job.
Like their job is to convict if they can, if
they win, then then they get promoted, maybe eventually get
to be a DA. Maybe maybe you go into politics.
Uh Kamala Harris for example, like how do you get
(18:44):
to be that VP? You you earned your earned well,
you made your way there by climbing up the ladder
on what is basically like a corporate system. And so
to them, it doesn't matter if the tools available will
use it, and so whether or not they care is
I think I'm not even brought into it. In order
for the criminal justice system to work, you have to
(19:05):
have attorneys who're going to just do the job of
defending whoever's right in front of them, regardless of guilt
or innocence, And so prosecutors are doing the same thing.
Who's next on the docket, Okay, my job is to convict. Okay,
so they're going to convict. I don't think the morality
of it even comes into the court system. It's such
a strange world. It doesn't matter if it's right or
(19:27):
wrong justice. It's not about justice.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
I was wondering if you have any moments that stood
out with you from audience members who consume rap who
had no idea about this.
Speaker 6 (19:38):
Maybe if there was a moment.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Where they were like, I thought that once that these
people were criminals in their lyrics, and this completely shed
light on all of that.
Speaker 5 (19:48):
Yeah, you'd be shocked. I've seen total conversions happen, especially later.
What people who I would know before and after story
is about oftentimes like parents of people who came people
from a different generation who just didn't even care to
understand hip hop, who thought one way before they watched
the film, and then just had a total one eighty
watching the film. And to me, it's kind of impossible
(20:12):
not to have that experience. I felt like we're going
into it with Kimba. It's like, of course, you could
make like an hour and a half doc on the
mac Phipps case, for sure, but he's had like twenty
different news specials and maybe more than that actually about him,
and people still haven't heard about what happened, and those
are new specials going out to millions and millions and
(20:32):
millions of people, and so it's like, you know, people
won't sit down and listen to this story in a
way that's just kind of giving you a talking head interview.
We had to make the documentary like a song and
kind of wrap you up into it, and that's how
you can come out the other side having a one
to eighty change. Because if you can truly see it
through Kemba's eyes, through the eyes of the artist, then
(20:53):
I don't know how you can see it the other way.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
More with Jason and Kimba after the break. Do you
think either of you do you think that the criminalization
of rap has implications beyond rap lyrics.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
I think we've we've started to see it on social media,
just the idea that the things that you say could
either be silence taken down, or you know, it could
have people. I think we're all I think we're all
sort of being watched to a certain degree and being
censored to a certain degree. And I think rap right
(21:37):
now is just the sort of most extreme form of it,
and I feel like it's it's a sort of dystopian
way of seeing life. But I do think it's possible
that I can get that way for everyone.
Speaker 5 (21:50):
Yeah, I think that's where tools are tested, is on
the most formal populations and then their scales.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
Yeah, that'd be so cool if you can see the
through line of as we speak, and then it's like, you.
Speaker 4 (22:02):
Know, oh, actually, I feel like it would be crazy.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Knew Jim Crow had that impact where it didn't stop
mass incarceration, but people really knew about it more and
were like against it.
Speaker 6 (22:17):
It swung the consensus.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
Yeah, sure, and that's important, Like that's the first step
to so many things.
Speaker 6 (22:23):
It's changing people's mindset about something.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
And I also really think, even outside of all of
the legal stuff, just the emphasis that this places on
the sophistication of rap, because rap is an art form.
Speaker 6 (22:35):
Like the fact that these people are.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Taking these lyrics and misconstruing them, I'm like, are you
are you thinking?
Speaker 6 (22:42):
Do you have a brain at all?
Speaker 1 (22:44):
But I think it just shows how so many people
try to minimize the artistry of rap and what it
does for people, and how it's poetry, and how it
can be used in so many different forms, and how
it has a legacy in so many of these other
genres that Black people ate it that we're specifically about
resilience and specifically about resistance, and this is like y'all
(23:06):
doing all of this for some rap. Clearly it's something
that is impactful to people. Clearly they understand the power
of it.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Yeah, it reminds me of David Banner speaking in front
of Congress or he was saying.
Speaker 7 (23:18):
How statistics will never show the positive side of rap
because statistics don't reflect what you don't do, if you
don't commit a murder or a crime.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
When you see people going so hard at a particular
art form, whether it's rap, whether it's you know, books
that talk about racism.
Speaker 6 (23:36):
It's like you're telling on yourself.
Speaker 4 (23:38):
You're telling on yourself.
Speaker 5 (23:41):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Now it's time for Roll Credits, the segment where we
give credit to a person, place, or thing that we've
encountered during the week, and we have our guests Jason
and Kimba joining us. But first, Eves, who are what
would you like to give credit to today?
Speaker 1 (24:02):
I want to give credit to black hair stylists.
Speaker 6 (24:04):
They are miracle workers. They are sent from God.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
I have had very interesting experience, it's very varied experiences
with black hair stylists, and honestly, I've been burned like
literally and figuratively literally and figuratively child So when you
find someone who actually does well, it feels so affirming.
But also just in general, I'm thankful for black hairstylists,
(24:29):
Like it's something that is a profession, but like also
just has like a deep familial and intimate history in
black life. I was thinking about how when I was
a child, I went to the neighborhood person who took
that hot comb, put it on the stove, and then
put it on my head. And I didn't really care
for the experience, but you know it's love, like it's
loved somebody put in their hands in your head and
(24:51):
like you know, doing this work, in this magic.
Speaker 6 (24:54):
So I really shout out to black hair stylists.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
I really would love to give credit to them doing
your thing.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
There we go, Jason, who are what would you like
to give credit to?
Speaker 5 (25:06):
I will just give credit to my two year old
daughter just because she Yeah, life, this is crazy. Just look
at this human being and just everything either it doesn't
matter or becomes clear or everything matters in a way
that can be just accepted. And so yeah, just watching
her sleep this morning. Maybe thank yeah, thankful, thank for her.
Speaker 4 (25:31):
How about you, Kim? Who are what would you like
to give credit to?
Speaker 3 (25:34):
You know what, I'm going to give credit to my boy,
my leak Jonathan.
Speaker 5 (25:39):
Oh.
Speaker 3 (25:40):
This movie literally would not have been possible without Paramount
and he he saw through the whole thing.
Speaker 5 (25:49):
He was on the ground with a pod project wouldn't.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Be possible without all right, all right, Malik Johnson, we
see you. I would like to give credit to the
Georgia Archives. They have a lot of information about different
Atlanta history, Georgia history, and there's so much stuff like
in boxes in archives that if you never go look
at them, and if someone doesn't like take them out
(26:15):
of those boxes, the general public will never know these stories.
And I was reminded of about that when I saw
kimbat in the archives looking at the different histories of
black music, and so it was just a reminder to
like visit your local archives, see what they got going on,
even if you don't consider yourself a researcher or academic, Like,
it's for everybody. Your taxes pay for it anyway, so
(26:37):
go hit them up. So how can folks keep up
with y'all?
Speaker 5 (26:40):
The film premie Years in New York's New York Streing
February twentieth, and then it comes out on Paramount Plus
on the February twenty seven. And yeah, that's the way
to reach me. And it's been great to see people
see back of the problem. It's just on Instagram at
jam Harper for me.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
Yeah, hit me on any social media platform at Kimberland,
come stay with us up.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Thank you, thank you so much, thanks for joining us.
I really enjoyed this conversation in the documentary, of course.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
Yes, looking forward to more people watching it and learning
from it.
Speaker 3 (27:18):
Thank you guys, this is fun.
Speaker 5 (27:19):
Thanks for having us. Thank you, Bye base.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
If this conversation has sparked your interest, we encourage you
to watch As We Speak, which comes out on February
twenty seventh on Paramount Plus. On Theme is a production
of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media. This episode was written
by Eves, Jeffco and Katie Mitchell. It was edited and
produced by Tari Harrison. Follow us on Instagram.
Speaker 6 (27:46):
At on Theme Show. You can also send us.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
An email at hello at on Theme dot show. Head
to on Theme dot Show to check out the show
notes for episodes. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
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