February 1, 2024 • 33 mins
It seems like everyone invokes the legacy of Martin Luther King, Jr., from leftist organizers to conservative pundits. “If Martin Luther King was alive, today he’d….” or “Dr. King didn’t die for you to be…” or “What would King do?”
And while Dr. King is no longer alive to weigh in, he did let Ebony Magazine readers know what he’d do in certain situations through his advice column, Advice For Living. In this episode, Katie and Yves take in Dr. King’s advice, flaws and all.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
As every Black History Month, we hear about the accomplishments
of black.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Folks from George Washington, Carver, Madam, C. J. Walker, Rosa Parks,
made Jemison to Malcolm x, Astata Shakur, even Ben Carson.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
He may history too.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
The list goes on, But there's one person who gets
shouted out the most. One person whose childhood home is
an annual field trip for every child in the metro
Atlanta area.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
One person who has his own federal holiday and statues
across the United States.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
A Moorhouse man, a man of Alpha Phi Alpha. He
had a dream, his eyes had seen the mountaintop. Of course,
we're talking about Martin Luther King.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Jumna.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
Our guest today on Meet the Press is doctor Martin
Luther King, Jr.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Who led the Civil Rights March from Selma to Montgomery, Alabamama.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
I'm Eves and I'm Katie. Today's episode what would King Do?
King looms large in the story of America. He was
a gadfly to America's vulturous ways.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
He dreamed of a better world, and he spent the
majority of his life working toward creating it until.
Speaker 4 (01:37):
Doctor Martin Luther King, the apostle of nonviolence in the
civil rights movement, has been shot to death in Memphis, Tennessee.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Since his death, Martin Luther King's radical message has been
defaned and repackaged and repurposed in some really strange ways.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
President Ronald Reagan evoked a line from King's I Have
a Dream speech while opposing affirmative action, and in nineteen
eighty six speech, Reagan said, quote, we want a colorblind society,
a society that, in the words of doctor King, judges
people not by the color of their skin, but by
the content of their character.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
In twenty twenty one, former Speaker of the House Kevin
McCarthy tweeted, critical race theory goes against everything Martin Luther
King Junior taught us.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
So he's conjuring up Martin Luther King Junior to prove
that kids shouldn't learn about Martin Luther King Junior. Okay, Oh, and.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
He's not the only one.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
While introducing legislation that would allow parents to sue schools
teaching critical race theory in the classroom, Florida Governor Ron
Desantist said, quote, you think about what MLK stood for
He said he didn't want people judged on the color
of their skin, but on the content of their character.
You've listened to some of these people nowadays. They don't
talk about that.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
That's their favorite little quote. But white conservatives aren't the
only culprits speaking of Ben Carson. Ease, come on up
to the front, doctor cosson this.
Speaker 4 (03:04):
Whole identity politics stuff is poisonous. You know, if Martin
Luther King, Doctor Martin Luther King were here today, he
would be absolutely offended. You know, he wanted people to
be judged by the character and not by the color
of their skin.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
That was Ben Carson reacting to Vermont prioritizing black people
during their COVID vaccine rollout.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Yeah, let's just ignore that black people were more likely
to be hospitalized and die from COVID and quote doctor
King out of context.
Speaker 3 (03:35):
Good plan, girl.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
People will be bringing up doctor King for the most
random stuff. I found a New York Daily News article
from twenty eleven about a lady who was selling shirts
that said pull your pants up. The article reads, the
Jamaica Queen's Resident considers the all too popular low slunk
pants style and a front to parents, teachers, anxiety and
an insult to the legacy of slain civil rights leader
(03:59):
doctor Martin Luther. And a direct quote from the woman
selling these shirts says, if our children today could get
to understand the dream of doctor King, they would not
be doing what they are doing by wearing these pants.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
It's like an American tradition to ask what what King do?
Speaker 2 (04:16):
But the thing is, King did tell us who he was,
what he was about, what he would do.
Speaker 4 (04:23):
I own to hope today lies in our ability to
recapture the revolutionary spirit and go out into a sometimes
hostile world declaring eternal hostility to poverty, racism, and militarism.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
He was a revolutionary. He stood with the poor and
against militarism. And forgive me for stating the obvious, King
was against racism.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Hot take, But was that being said? It's also important
to remember that King, like all of us, was flawed.
He made mistakes, and he said things that really didn't
age well.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
He was influenced by the patriarchal society in which he
was reared, and he showed us as plain as day.
In his nineteen fifties monthly Ebony magazine column, advice for living.
His advice on topics like marital infidelity, colorism, and homosexuality
is a time capsule of how ingrained sexism and misogyny
were in everyday life and perpetuated by most of our
(05:24):
respected leaders.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
We'll hear what Martin Luther King would have done from
the man himself after the break.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
I first learned about Martin Luther King's advice column in
twenty eighteen when Michael Denzel Smith wrote about it in
The Atlantic. I was fascinated. All the facts I learned
about King throughout school and this never came up.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Yeah, this advice column was not included in the curriculum,
so tell me more about it.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
In the summer of nineteen fifty seven, King accepted an
invitation to write the column from Larene Bennett, a fellow
Morehouse graduate and associate editor of Ebony Magazine. In the
September fifth, nineteen fifty seven issue of Ebony's sister publication Jet,
an advertisement for King's forthcoming Advice for a Living column
recommended that readers let demand that let the Montgomery Boycott
(06:15):
lead you into happier living.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Interesting ad copy What you mean, I'm not sure him
leading the Montgomery bus Boycott qualifies him to lead people
into happier living, but I will suspend my disbelief until
I hear what he has to say.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
I mean, you know, let me just read some of
these questions. According to Stanford University's archive, Ebney magazine was
flooded with advice seekers wanting to hear from the young activists.
This question comes from a wife with a tyrannical husband.
She writes, My.
Speaker 5 (06:49):
Husband is one of the pillars of the church. He
attends all the services and contributes generously to all church activities,
but when he comes home he changes completely complete tyrant
At home he seems to hate me and the children too.
What can I do? He was once a good man.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Okay, what did king say?
Speaker 2 (07:11):
So he came in a little high.
Speaker 6 (07:13):
First, he said, I would suggest that you analyze the
whole situation and see if there's anything within your personality
that arouses this tyrannical response from your husband.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
Not putting the onus on her.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Yeah, not the greatest start, but I don't think the
rest of the answer was that bad. So he continues, Second.
Speaker 6 (07:34):
You should sit down and patiently talk over the whole
matter with your husband, showing him the unhappiness and disharmony
that he's bringing within the whole family. Third, since your
husband is a devout churchman, you may consider counseling with
your minister on this problem, and he could probably say
things to both of you that would restore the balance
(07:54):
and stability of the home.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
So I feel like there was a lot that was
unsaid in this question, and and it seems like the
person who's asking this question is being very meek about
it because hate is a very strong word and that
doesn't go well with seams. You can't seem to hate somebody.
So I'm really wondering what's actually happening in the household.
And I think that's something that King just kind of
(08:17):
like skipped over, and he jumped straight to the assumption
that it's something that she did and that it's something
that needs to be discussed in terms of like whose
responsibility it was. So I think if he seems to
hate her, I would imagine that she probably has talked
to him about this before. I would guess like it
(08:37):
might have come up at some point, or she might
have tried to address it in different ways beforehand. So
I feel like there needs to be some sort of
third party involved already, like there needs to be some
sort of mediator.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Which he suggests the minister.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
Yes, but I also have an issue with that too because.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Like Ali was in the church, so he's probably gonna
be on the man side exactly.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
And also it's often known that you know, ministers do
often try to act as psychologists or therapists to people
when that's not their job. And of course they have
certain biases in the advice that they're going to give.
And yes, there's a personal connection.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
So I mean like a true third party, a neutral
party exactly, a true third party. That's probably very rare
in the fifties, especially black families, for them to go
to therapists. Yeah, I feel like that's the only true
neutral third party we can have because you can't bring
your friend into your family because they also have that bias.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Yeah, and you're not just going to get a random
person off the street, So they can't go to the
internet and just put a pole up.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Yeah, they can't go on ready and people say, by
the asshole. So yeah, I feel like that would be
very rare. So I don't know if that would be
like typical advice you would give in context of the
time period and how black folks was moving during that time.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
I also think that it's tough without the context, which
is why that's where I started, because I don't know
how if he hates her and the children, he could
be a dangerous person. So I don't know what coming
to him and being like, hey, you've been doing this,
it's really hurting us, Like how can you change yourself?
How that'll come off with him, Like if he would
(10:15):
respond violently, if he would erupt in any sort of
way to her asking that question. Because if she's gotten
to a point where she's asking an esteemed person who
she doesn't know personally for advice, I would guess my
assumptions would be one she might have already tried to
talk to him about it, or two, she can't talk
to him about it because he won't receive it well
(10:36):
and won't be able to have a conversation with her
in any sort of civil way. So it's hard for
me to give advice if if it's not possible to
see a therapist, or if it's difficult to find a
neutral third party and it's difficult to talk to him,
it is a pretty tough question.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Yeah, and a hallmark of these advice columns, which we
talked about in the Princess Mysterious episode A Shapeless plug.
That part of the gag was you were just supposed
to say, like get a divorce, breakup because it's like
that's not fun, Like we're just to work it out.
And when she says he seems to hate her, I
(11:17):
took that as like, you know how men just be
with women they don't like. Yeah, that's what I took
it as, like he don't like me, but you know
I cook and clean and pop out babies.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Now see, I can't agree with you there because the
children are brought into it, and when you seem like
you hate children, that's a different type.
Speaker 3 (11:37):
So he hates the whole family.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
And I think what ri you're saying is like he
just he resents being in the situation he's in.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
He don't really want to be.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Yeah, but we don't want to be family possible. He
has like some animis and we don't know.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
Though, because she don't she didn't tell us exactly.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
What I'm psychoanalyzing him. Now, Okay, all right, they're nineteen fifties,
they're black. Pepeople were assuming, which I'm sure they are
reading up any magazine and writing into doctor King. I
just read The Fire next time, and James Baldwin was
talking about his dad and how he was so mean
because he believed what white people said about him. So
(12:14):
if you just have like white people are your neck
all day during Jim Crow as a man, and then
you come into the house and that's the place you
have dominion over some people, some men are going to
act a fool just because they can't act fool with Whitey.
Down at the job, they call you boy. They drop
the stuff on the floor so you can go pick
it up, So you gotta come in ready to be
(12:35):
a man. And to you, that's showing aggression because you
have all this pinned up aggression from your life outside
the home. So I think that's what she is referring to.
She's like, I think he hates me the kids because
that's who he has quote unquote control over, and so
that's who he's like giving all his like mean feelings towards.
(12:56):
That's one educated guess why he's acting the way he's acting.
And I think it's telling because King is a minister
at this point too, And the first thing he says
is what you done did to this man?
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Okay, So either way it goes even if it is
this hypothetical that you've built up, girl, you know, built
up the theory, or if it is what King says,
where it's something she did to him, he's still the problem.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
No, I'm saying him saying like, oh, like you need
to look within yourself. It's kind of a clue of
what his last point was with going to your minister
and talking like the minister at their church is probably
just going to flip it back on her too. So
she's really in like a tough situation, like maybe he
is the type of guy her husband just super not
(13:43):
self aware and being like, hey, you're making our lives
a living hell? Can you stop that? Like maybe he'll
change his ways, but probably not.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
No, because it has to have been happening for quite
some time if she's gotten to the point about it,
so yeah, yeah, it's probably at a critical point right now. Yeah,
And it's been festering for a minute, like it's been
sitting there building up. It's something that's been happening between
the two of them. But the thing is, if she's
writing in she wants to stay with him, but girl.
(14:11):
I guess we need to address the fact that she
said he wants a good.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
Man too, y.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Onto that memory, and so there is some work that
can be done. I guess advice that can be given
to her too to like honestly evaluate who he is
in the present and she actually wants to be with
him in this moment, right, So maybe it is like okay,
instead of there is a conversation that needs to be
had with the question asker that's not like what did
(14:38):
you do, but is instead like is this what you want?
Speaker 3 (14:41):
And who is he?
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Okay, Doctor King, come with it, Doctor Eve, Okay, more
of King's advice. After the break, we're back with another
question from Advice for Living, and Doctor King's answer might
(15:05):
surprise you. This is from a woman asking about birth
controls morality.
Speaker 5 (15:09):
She asks, we have seven children and another one is
on the way. Our four room apartment is busting at
the seams, and living space in Harlem is at a premium.
I have suggested to my husband that we practice birth control,
but he says that when God thinks we have enough children,
he will put a stop to it. I've tried to
reason with him, but he says that birth control is sinful?
Speaker 6 (15:32):
Is he right?
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Seven kids one on the way in a four bedroom apartment.
Something's got to give. What did Kings say about her situation?
Speaker 2 (15:42):
He wrote, I don't.
Speaker 6 (15:44):
Think it's correct to argue that birth control is sinful.
It's a serious mistake to suppose that it's a religious
act to allow nature to have its way in the
sex life. He also says, another thing that must be
said is that changes in social and economic conditions make
smaller families desirable, if not necessary. As you suggest, the
(16:06):
limited quarters available in our large cities and high cost
of living precludes such large families as were common a
century ago. The final consideration is that women must be
considered as more than breeding machines.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
Wow, that isn't something that I'd expect from a religious
man from the South during the nineteen fifties.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
Look at Martin.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
But like some of these other answers, it contains multiple parts.
He goes on to say, it is.
Speaker 6 (16:35):
True the primary obligation of the woman is that of motherhood,
but an intelligent mother wants it to be a responsible motherhood,
a motherhood to which she has given her consent, not
a motherhood due to impulse and to chance. And this
means birth control in some form. All of these factors
seem to me to make birth control rationally and morally justifiable.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Yeah, So I feel like this is one of those
instances where he was talking a little bit too much,
who gave a little bit too much in the answer,
because it went a little off the rails once he
started justifying his reasoning to say that birth control was
like a moral and a rational decision. Saying that the
primary obligation of the woman is motherhood is expected, but
(17:23):
still wild when you're telling somebody that they have the
right to be able to choose birth control.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
I said, she already got seven kids.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Yeah right, she's probably pretty busy. Yeah, she's pretty busy
doing the work of motherhood already currently. So it felt
like it was a lot of judgment on King's part
of the mother rather than him answering the question, because
her question is really like a pretty simple one. She
(17:55):
wasn't really asking for advice of what she should do next.
It seemed like she really just said, is birth control sinful?
And she was looking for guidance on that, And I
think bringing what the obligation of women was into the
question that he already answered, which is that no birth
control is not simple was like a step a bridge
too far.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
Yeah, he wanted to put some extra on it. But
I feel like that's the nature of advice columns, Like
you can't just write a sentence like no birth control
isn't sinful. People want to feel like you considered it,
which I think maybe when she read this question she
was satisfied with the answer. He was ultimately on her
side of the equation. But it is anonymous, so you
(18:33):
can't like go show your husband. But I don't know
hers is real specific. We got seven kids, one on
the way, four bedroom apartment in Harlem, he says.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
This honestly, that probably wasn't that rare.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Though true today it's like one person in this situation. Yeah,
who could afford a four bedroom apartment in Harlan.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Ain't nobody considering being a brand machine in these days?
Who's calling anybody that? Nobody questions that?
Speaker 2 (18:57):
So he did do a bit much with the primary
obligation of the woman is that of motherhood. But like
you said, that was probably just like power for the
course and how people thought. But I do think he's
like really ahead of his time, like even right now,
because a lot of Christians are very anti birth control,
not even anti abortion, like they are anti abortion, but
(19:18):
they don't even want people on birth control, which is
just so strange to me. But there's like a lot
of people and we see that now happening with like
the legislation that people are presenting, like they don't want
the girls to have birth control. So I was surprised
when he was like, no, it's not sinvil. It's like
makes sense why you would come to this conclusion, like
(19:38):
you shouldn't leave to things a chance. It should be
like your consent. I was like, okay, Yeah, he could
have said be fruitful and multiply exactly would a lot
of people stop if.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
You still have the ability to have children there? Yeah,
bear of the fruit. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
So I be hearing people like that today right now, yeah,
ten minutes ago. So yeah, I was pleasantly surprised by
the answer, even though you know it had its moments
where he wanted to add a little raffle dazzle for
the girls.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
So, speaking of the girls, did men ever write in.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
Yeah, of course everyone wanted advice from Martin Luther king Shaw.
Here's one from a boy who doesn't want his parents
to know he's gay.
Speaker 7 (20:17):
He writes, my problem is different from the ones most
people have. I'm a boy, but I feel about boys
the way I ought to feel about girls. I don't
want my parents to know about me. What can I do?
Is there any place where I can go for help?
Speaker 3 (20:35):
Poor baby? What did King say?
Speaker 2 (20:37):
He replied, your problem.
Speaker 6 (20:39):
Is not at all an uncommon one. However, it does
require careful attention. The type of feeling that you have
toward boys is probably not an inate tendency, but something
that has been culturally acquired. Your reasons for adopting this
habit have now been consciously suppressed or unconscious repressed. Therefore,
(21:01):
it's necessary to deal with this problem by getting back
to some of the experiences and circumstances that lead to
the habit.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
Okay, seemed like he was starting to veer a little
too far into psychologist's territory.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Well, he actually suggests the boy sees a psychiatrist. He
goes on to say that basically a psychiatrist can help
him bring this issue to the forefront of his conscious
and see what actually led him to the habit. The
habit being gay, I'm assuming and that since he's already
recognizing the problem. He's already on the road to a solution,
So that's a positive.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
H I feel like we started good by him saying
your problem is not at all an uncommon one, because
he was acknowledging that it's something that people struggle with.
But like the answer that King gave was already off
on a baffoot because he called it a problem in
the first place. Overall, his answer was giving conversion therapy vibes.
(21:57):
And I think that his answer to this child was
who he is, who's already trying to figure out so much,
like he's still developing, still understanding sexuality in so many ways,
and probably doesn't have a lot of people around him
that he can talk to. If he's writing into a
column to ask for advice about it, which is also
like an issue in itself, there's nobody actually in his
(22:20):
space that can help support him as he has feelings
that he doesn't know how to parse yet. But yeah,
it could actually be even more harmful to this child
who is like, well, it's a problem. One doctor King said,
this thing that I have is a problem, But these
are just normal feelings that I'm feeling. How are these
feeling different than all of the other feelings that I have.
What else is like wrong that I'm feeling that I
don't quite understand? So that can be very confusing. I mean,
(22:44):
we already know how damaging it is to children who
are not affirmed when they feel certain ways don't have
the support systems that they need. So it's kind of
weird because King's advice was problematic, but there were phrases
in there where I'm like, okay, like yes it does,
like when he said it does require careful attention, Well, yes,
it's something that you have to tend to, but not
(23:05):
in the way in which King meant it.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
So this one just makes me deep.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Sigh, deep sigh. What would you say to this boy?
Speaker 1 (23:15):
I would definitely start by affirming that it's not a problem,
that it is something that other people go through, that
it's not something that he needs to change. I think
I would start in the advice in that direction, and
then after that he asks for specific places. So it's
hard for me to think about giving any sort of
(23:36):
actually helpful advice without directing him to actual places that
he could go.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Oh where can I go for help?
Speaker 7 (23:42):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (23:43):
I think maybe because it's nineteen fifty, so even if
there are places like that seem like they might be
like a good resource. It could be just like conversion therapy.
But like, I feel like the most basic advice would
be like talk to a trusted adult, like a teacher
or a cod which it was the nineteen fifties, away
you know there are somebody gay, or absolutely are somebody
(24:04):
that you know wouldn't care if you were gay.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
My issue with saying that, though, is that could easily
lead back to his parents, because I feel like that
was also more in the culture. And yeah, but I
think that's difficult though, because he trusts that person. But
that doesn't mean that the adult's idea of what the
right thing to do is in going back to the parents.
I think that sometimes adults think the best thing to
do is to notify the parents, and they're like, you
(24:27):
need to know this about your child, And the child
already knows one thing because they're the ones who are
interfacing with their parents, have that intimate relationship with their
parents in the actual home space.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
So I trust.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
I also trust this child to have agency and intelligence
to understand that their parent, you know, how their parents
would respond most likely even though that may you know,
that may not be true, they may respond with more
care and kindness than the child may be expecting. But
I do think that sometimes adults who think they have
a child's best interest at heart say that, well Disney
(25:00):
to go back to the parents, and they might not
keep it confidential. And that's my only hesitance with that.
It's just like not knowing exactly how a person that
a child would consider a trusted adult would choose to
enact that trust.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Yeah, that's fair.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
All that said, it still wouldn't hurt to like, for
King to give that advice to the child within this column.
You know, it's better than just not being able to
do anything for the.
Speaker 3 (25:23):
Child at all.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
Yeah, I do think one of the interesting things about
advice columns but just like kind of expousing your thoughts
on what other people should do in their lives publicly,
is it really about the person who's like writing in
or the specific person that you're talking about. But for
the people in your life where that situation applies to them,
(25:45):
now they see you a lot clearer. So if he had,
like a child who was having these feelings about liking
boys when they should like girls, or liking girls when
they should like boys, and they see this advice or like, oh,
my dad sees this as a price, or Uncle Martin
Jesus as a problem, or who whatever the case may be. Like, however,
the child relates to Martin Luther King the same way
(26:07):
if there was you know, he's a minister in Atlanta
and there's a woman in his church that finds herself
in like an abusive relationship, whether it's verbally or physically,
and she's like, oh, well, I read Reverend King's advice
column and ebony, and this is what he said should
happen the same way, like people these days are talking
(26:29):
about people who've like had abortions, but like you might
not know who in your life has had an abortion.
But like when you talk so bad about people who
have had it abortions, like the people around you're like, oh,
you're not safe, you know what I mean? So I
think that might be like an unintended consequence of all
the things that doctor King is saying and not saying
that all of his responses were like problematic. There are
something that were good, Like he's against a death penalty,
(26:49):
he was against the war, and people ask him things
about that as well. I kind of pulled out the
most delicious one. But yeah, I think that's an unintended
consequence for this advice column, all advice columns. And just
like when you like spout out things about like a celebrity,
you know, like celebrity having a baby out of way, like,
oh my god, she's so stupid. But then your homegirl
just found out she's pregnant and she wanted to come
(27:12):
and tell you, but she sees you typing on Twitter
that all women who have babies with niggas out of
way like are dumb, and the it's like, oh, well,
now I can't talk to you.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
And they're forming these opinions based on people's lives who
they have no idea about. So I also feel like
it's easy to have less trust in when people are
saying those kinds of things on the internet versus what
they say with you in private. I feel like it's
an interesting conundrum because like, yeah, on the one hand,
you could see these people saying all these negative things
(27:41):
in forming opinions based on lives they don't know it
in public spaces, but like, probably what they say to
you in their face about a life they know a
little bit better is more honest.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
Yeah, probably more empathetic, but I don't know. It's almost
like did youso wear bandana is on they head and
drive hoopties are dumb and be like, oh my god,
I'm never coming to you for advice.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
Do you think I've dubbed?
Speaker 2 (28:07):
King continue publishing the column until December nineteen fifty eight,
when his doctor advised him to limit his commitments following
his September nineteen fifty eight stabbing. I think it's a
great piece of history. Like we said at the top,
folks are always invoking King and twisting his words. Here
we get to hear directly from King in a less
formal way. And remember King was in his late twenties
when he wrote this column. His opinions would have evolved,
(28:29):
probably did evolve up until his death at thirty nine
years old.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
I think that's a good point though, to you know,
think about all the ways that people are co opting
doctor King's words and saying what he should have said.
Everybody who says those kind of things are acting like
they are the foremost experts on doctor King's ideology, on
his biography, and we have to remember that they're not.
(28:54):
Like people feel really empowered to say how they think
doctor King would have felt, and what they think Doctor
King would have done, not having done a ton of
research on his history. So I think we have to
take their words with a grain of salt and also
remember that like at the end of the day, we
(29:15):
can't say any of this, None of us can say
any of this because doctor King is no longer with us,
and we can learn from the words that he did
leave behind and all of the other parts of his
legacy that he left behind, like family and like all
of the people who followed in his footsteps and learned
from him. But he's not here to say the things
(29:36):
that we are surmising that we're guessing that he would
have said.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
Yeah, and I mean there are foremost experts on doctor King,
and like they don't do that. And like as we
saw people like that one little quote about the interpreting
me in a colorblind, raceless society, or they love that
quote about darkness cannot drive out darkness, only light can
do that.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
Do you know that one? Yes, I do.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
It would have hated on a bridge here that I
hate driving over that brane. So yeah, people have they
little keen quotes that they liked to cherry pick, but
if you really read his stuff, like, they won't be
quoting what he says about like war in capitalism.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
It's not feel good. Yeah, if it's not feel good
enough for them, it's not good enough to be a SoundBite. Yeah,
a little pithy, little SoundBite, but hey. You can read
more of King's Ebony magazine at Vice column at Vice
for Living online through Stanford University's archive. Give it a
gander and let us know what you think.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
Now it's time for roll credits. The segment where we
give credit to a person, place, or a thing that
we encountered during the week is who are what would
you like to give credit to today?
Speaker 1 (30:44):
I like to give credit to head wraps. I'm currently wearing.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
A head rap rocking it. Don't say you're just wearing it,
rocking it.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
I was leaving the house today and I've just you
know how sometimes you just get tired of dan your
hair being the way it is. I love my hair.
Don't touch my hair. I am not I am not
my hair, but I was it was just getting on
my nerves earlier. So I was like, let me put
it up something that's comfortable. And I was like, I
(31:16):
haven't been wearing heat wraps lately, and they're an easy
way to like still feel good about myself, still feel fashionable,
but also like head wraps have a lot of symbology
in so many different ways, and so I can still
like hold all of that while I'm wearing this thing
where it's like I want my hair to be out
(31:37):
today as well.
Speaker 3 (31:39):
So that's why I want to give credit to head
wraps today. Shout out to head wraps.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Okay, I can never look cute in them, like you
got yours tied up. I can't. I don't know how
to do that, and I'd be looking at the videos
and I'm like why I should do not look like that?
But yeah, shout out to hair wraps. I would like
to give credit to time travel and the time travel
that happens when you read a book that was written,
(32:04):
you know, decades and decades ago before you were born
for your thought of and you read it and you're
like yes, like I understand exactly what you're saying, like
you are speaking to me right in this moment. I
just finished reading The Fire Next Time, and there are
so many lines where I was like, yup, that's going
on right now today, Like I feel you and I
think that's a particular thing with literature, where you get
(32:26):
to travel from the comfort of your wherever you're reading
and really know what was going on in the minds
of people at a particular time. And I think about
that when I write too, that hopefully someone will read
my words in the future and be like, yup, she right,
So shout out to time travel and we will see
y'all next week.
Speaker 7 (32:47):
Bye bye.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media.
This episode was written by Eves Jeffco and Katie Mitchell,
acting for Martin Luther King Junior in today's episode done
by Spencer Bynes. It was edited and produced by Tari Harrison.
Follow us on Instagram at on Themeshow.
Speaker 3 (33:10):
You can also send us.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
An email at Helloa at on Theme dot show. Head
to on Theme dot show to check out the show
notes for episodes. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows.
On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
As every Black History Month, we hear about the accomplishments
of black.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Folks from George Washington, Carver, Madam, C. J. Walker, Rosa Parks,
made Jemison to Malcolm x, Astata Shakur, even Ben Carson.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
He may history too.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
The list goes on, But there's one person who gets
shouted out the most. One person whose childhood home is
an annual field trip for every child in the metro
Atlanta area.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
One person who has his own federal holiday and statues
across the United States.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
A Moorhouse man, a man of Alpha Phi Alpha. He
had a dream, his eyes had seen the mountaintop. Of course,
we're talking about Martin Luther King.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Jumna.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
Our guest today on Meet the Press is doctor Martin
Luther King, Jr.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Who led the Civil Rights March from Selma to Montgomery, Alabamama.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
I'm Eves and I'm Katie. Today's episode what would King Do?
King looms large in the story of America. He was
a gadfly to America's vulturous ways.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
He dreamed of a better world, and he spent the
majority of his life working toward creating it until.
Speaker 4 (01:37):
Doctor Martin Luther King, the apostle of nonviolence in the
civil rights movement, has been shot to death in Memphis, Tennessee.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Since his death, Martin Luther King's radical message has been
defaned and repackaged and repurposed in some really strange ways.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
President Ronald Reagan evoked a line from King's I Have
a Dream speech while opposing affirmative action, and in nineteen
eighty six speech, Reagan said, quote, we want a colorblind society,
a society that, in the words of doctor King, judges
people not by the color of their skin, but by
the content of their character.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
In twenty twenty one, former Speaker of the House Kevin
McCarthy tweeted, critical race theory goes against everything Martin Luther
King Junior taught us.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
So he's conjuring up Martin Luther King Junior to prove
that kids shouldn't learn about Martin Luther King Junior. Okay, Oh, and.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
He's not the only one.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
While introducing legislation that would allow parents to sue schools
teaching critical race theory in the classroom, Florida Governor Ron
Desantist said, quote, you think about what MLK stood for
He said he didn't want people judged on the color
of their skin, but on the content of their character.
You've listened to some of these people nowadays. They don't
talk about that.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
That's their favorite little quote. But white conservatives aren't the
only culprits speaking of Ben Carson. Ease, come on up
to the front, doctor cosson this.
Speaker 4 (03:04):
Whole identity politics stuff is poisonous. You know, if Martin
Luther King, Doctor Martin Luther King were here today, he
would be absolutely offended. You know, he wanted people to
be judged by the character and not by the color
of their skin.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
That was Ben Carson reacting to Vermont prioritizing black people
during their COVID vaccine rollout.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Yeah, let's just ignore that black people were more likely
to be hospitalized and die from COVID and quote doctor
King out of context.
Speaker 3 (03:35):
Good plan, girl.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
People will be bringing up doctor King for the most
random stuff. I found a New York Daily News article
from twenty eleven about a lady who was selling shirts
that said pull your pants up. The article reads, the
Jamaica Queen's Resident considers the all too popular low slunk
pants style and a front to parents, teachers, anxiety and
an insult to the legacy of slain civil rights leader
(03:59):
doctor Martin Luther. And a direct quote from the woman
selling these shirts says, if our children today could get
to understand the dream of doctor King, they would not
be doing what they are doing by wearing these pants.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
It's like an American tradition to ask what what King do?
Speaker 2 (04:16):
But the thing is, King did tell us who he was,
what he was about, what he would do.
Speaker 4 (04:23):
I own to hope today lies in our ability to
recapture the revolutionary spirit and go out into a sometimes
hostile world declaring eternal hostility to poverty, racism, and militarism.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
He was a revolutionary. He stood with the poor and
against militarism. And forgive me for stating the obvious, King
was against racism.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Hot take, But was that being said? It's also important
to remember that King, like all of us, was flawed.
He made mistakes, and he said things that really didn't
age well.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
He was influenced by the patriarchal society in which he
was reared, and he showed us as plain as day.
In his nineteen fifties monthly Ebony magazine column, advice for living.
His advice on topics like marital infidelity, colorism, and homosexuality
is a time capsule of how ingrained sexism and misogyny
were in everyday life and perpetuated by most of our
(05:24):
respected leaders.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
We'll hear what Martin Luther King would have done from
the man himself after the break.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
I first learned about Martin Luther King's advice column in
twenty eighteen when Michael Denzel Smith wrote about it in
The Atlantic. I was fascinated. All the facts I learned
about King throughout school and this never came up.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Yeah, this advice column was not included in the curriculum,
so tell me more about it.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
In the summer of nineteen fifty seven, King accepted an
invitation to write the column from Larene Bennett, a fellow
Morehouse graduate and associate editor of Ebony Magazine. In the
September fifth, nineteen fifty seven issue of Ebony's sister publication Jet,
an advertisement for King's forthcoming Advice for a Living column
recommended that readers let demand that let the Montgomery Boycott
(06:15):
lead you into happier living.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Interesting ad copy What you mean, I'm not sure him
leading the Montgomery bus Boycott qualifies him to lead people
into happier living, but I will suspend my disbelief until
I hear what he has to say.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
I mean, you know, let me just read some of
these questions. According to Stanford University's archive, Ebney magazine was
flooded with advice seekers wanting to hear from the young activists.
This question comes from a wife with a tyrannical husband.
She writes, My.
Speaker 5 (06:49):
Husband is one of the pillars of the church. He
attends all the services and contributes generously to all church activities,
but when he comes home he changes completely complete tyrant
At home he seems to hate me and the children too.
What can I do? He was once a good man.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Okay, what did king say?
Speaker 2 (07:11):
So he came in a little high.
Speaker 6 (07:13):
First, he said, I would suggest that you analyze the
whole situation and see if there's anything within your personality
that arouses this tyrannical response from your husband.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
Not putting the onus on her.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Yeah, not the greatest start, but I don't think the
rest of the answer was that bad. So he continues, Second.
Speaker 6 (07:34):
You should sit down and patiently talk over the whole
matter with your husband, showing him the unhappiness and disharmony
that he's bringing within the whole family. Third, since your
husband is a devout churchman, you may consider counseling with
your minister on this problem, and he could probably say
things to both of you that would restore the balance
(07:54):
and stability of the home.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
So I feel like there was a lot that was
unsaid in this question, and and it seems like the
person who's asking this question is being very meek about
it because hate is a very strong word and that
doesn't go well with seams. You can't seem to hate somebody.
So I'm really wondering what's actually happening in the household.
And I think that's something that King just kind of
(08:17):
like skipped over, and he jumped straight to the assumption
that it's something that she did and that it's something
that needs to be discussed in terms of like whose
responsibility it was. So I think if he seems to
hate her, I would imagine that she probably has talked
to him about this before. I would guess like it
(08:37):
might have come up at some point, or she might
have tried to address it in different ways beforehand. So
I feel like there needs to be some sort of
third party involved already, like there needs to be some
sort of mediator.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Which he suggests the minister.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
Yes, but I also have an issue with that too because.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Like Ali was in the church, so he's probably gonna
be on the man side exactly.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
And also it's often known that you know, ministers do
often try to act as psychologists or therapists to people
when that's not their job. And of course they have
certain biases in the advice that they're going to give.
And yes, there's a personal connection.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
So I mean like a true third party, a neutral
party exactly, a true third party. That's probably very rare
in the fifties, especially black families, for them to go
to therapists. Yeah, I feel like that's the only true
neutral third party we can have because you can't bring
your friend into your family because they also have that bias.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Yeah, and you're not just going to get a random
person off the street, So they can't go to the
internet and just put a pole up.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Yeah, they can't go on ready and people say, by
the asshole. So yeah, I feel like that would be
very rare. So I don't know if that would be
like typical advice you would give in context of the
time period and how black folks was moving during that time.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
I also think that it's tough without the context, which
is why that's where I started, because I don't know
how if he hates her and the children, he could
be a dangerous person. So I don't know what coming
to him and being like, hey, you've been doing this,
it's really hurting us, Like how can you change yourself?
How that'll come off with him, Like if he would
(10:15):
respond violently, if he would erupt in any sort of
way to her asking that question. Because if she's gotten
to a point where she's asking an esteemed person who
she doesn't know personally for advice, I would guess my
assumptions would be one she might have already tried to
talk to him about it, or two, she can't talk
to him about it because he won't receive it well
(10:36):
and won't be able to have a conversation with her
in any sort of civil way. So it's hard for
me to give advice if if it's not possible to
see a therapist, or if it's difficult to find a
neutral third party and it's difficult to talk to him,
it is a pretty tough question.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Yeah, and a hallmark of these advice columns, which we
talked about in the Princess Mysterious episode A Shapeless plug.
That part of the gag was you were just supposed
to say, like get a divorce, breakup because it's like
that's not fun, Like we're just to work it out.
And when she says he seems to hate her, I
(11:17):
took that as like, you know how men just be
with women they don't like. Yeah, that's what I took
it as, like he don't like me, but you know
I cook and clean and pop out babies.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Now see, I can't agree with you there because the
children are brought into it, and when you seem like
you hate children, that's a different type.
Speaker 3 (11:37):
So he hates the whole family.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
And I think what ri you're saying is like he
just he resents being in the situation he's in.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
He don't really want to be.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Yeah, but we don't want to be family possible. He
has like some animis and we don't know.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
Though, because she don't she didn't tell us exactly.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
What I'm psychoanalyzing him. Now, Okay, all right, they're nineteen fifties,
they're black. Pepeople were assuming, which I'm sure they are
reading up any magazine and writing into doctor King. I
just read The Fire next time, and James Baldwin was
talking about his dad and how he was so mean
because he believed what white people said about him. So
(12:14):
if you just have like white people are your neck
all day during Jim Crow as a man, and then
you come into the house and that's the place you
have dominion over some people, some men are going to
act a fool just because they can't act fool with Whitey.
Down at the job, they call you boy. They drop
the stuff on the floor so you can go pick
it up, So you gotta come in ready to be
(12:35):
a man. And to you, that's showing aggression because you
have all this pinned up aggression from your life outside
the home. So I think that's what she is referring to.
She's like, I think he hates me the kids because
that's who he has quote unquote control over, and so
that's who he's like giving all his like mean feelings towards.
(12:56):
That's one educated guess why he's acting the way he's acting.
And I think it's telling because King is a minister
at this point too, And the first thing he says
is what you done did to this man?
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Okay, So either way it goes even if it is
this hypothetical that you've built up, girl, you know, built
up the theory, or if it is what King says,
where it's something she did to him, he's still the problem.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
No, I'm saying him saying like, oh, like you need
to look within yourself. It's kind of a clue of
what his last point was with going to your minister
and talking like the minister at their church is probably
just going to flip it back on her too. So
she's really in like a tough situation, like maybe he
is the type of guy her husband just super not
(13:43):
self aware and being like, hey, you're making our lives
a living hell? Can you stop that? Like maybe he'll
change his ways, but probably not.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
No, because it has to have been happening for quite
some time if she's gotten to the point about it,
so yeah, yeah, it's probably at a critical point right now. Yeah,
And it's been festering for a minute, like it's been
sitting there building up. It's something that's been happening between
the two of them. But the thing is, if she's
writing in she wants to stay with him, but girl.
(14:11):
I guess we need to address the fact that she
said he wants a good.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
Man too, y.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Onto that memory, and so there is some work that
can be done. I guess advice that can be given
to her too to like honestly evaluate who he is
in the present and she actually wants to be with
him in this moment, right, So maybe it is like okay,
instead of there is a conversation that needs to be
had with the question asker that's not like what did
(14:38):
you do, but is instead like is this what you want?
Speaker 3 (14:41):
And who is he?
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Okay, Doctor King, come with it, Doctor Eve, Okay, more
of King's advice. After the break, we're back with another
question from Advice for Living, and Doctor King's answer might
(15:05):
surprise you. This is from a woman asking about birth
controls morality.
Speaker 5 (15:09):
She asks, we have seven children and another one is
on the way. Our four room apartment is busting at
the seams, and living space in Harlem is at a premium.
I have suggested to my husband that we practice birth control,
but he says that when God thinks we have enough children,
he will put a stop to it. I've tried to
reason with him, but he says that birth control is sinful?
Speaker 6 (15:32):
Is he right?
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Seven kids one on the way in a four bedroom apartment.
Something's got to give. What did Kings say about her situation?
Speaker 2 (15:42):
He wrote, I don't.
Speaker 6 (15:44):
Think it's correct to argue that birth control is sinful.
It's a serious mistake to suppose that it's a religious
act to allow nature to have its way in the
sex life. He also says, another thing that must be
said is that changes in social and economic conditions make
smaller families desirable, if not necessary. As you suggest, the
(16:06):
limited quarters available in our large cities and high cost
of living precludes such large families as were common a
century ago. The final consideration is that women must be
considered as more than breeding machines.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
Wow, that isn't something that I'd expect from a religious
man from the South during the nineteen fifties.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
Look at Martin.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
But like some of these other answers, it contains multiple parts.
He goes on to say, it is.
Speaker 6 (16:35):
True the primary obligation of the woman is that of motherhood,
but an intelligent mother wants it to be a responsible motherhood,
a motherhood to which she has given her consent, not
a motherhood due to impulse and to chance. And this
means birth control in some form. All of these factors
seem to me to make birth control rationally and morally justifiable.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Yeah, So I feel like this is one of those
instances where he was talking a little bit too much,
who gave a little bit too much in the answer,
because it went a little off the rails once he
started justifying his reasoning to say that birth control was
like a moral and a rational decision. Saying that the
primary obligation of the woman is motherhood is expected, but
(17:23):
still wild when you're telling somebody that they have the
right to be able to choose birth control.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
I said, she already got seven kids.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Yeah right, she's probably pretty busy. Yeah, she's pretty busy
doing the work of motherhood already currently. So it felt
like it was a lot of judgment on King's part
of the mother rather than him answering the question, because
her question is really like a pretty simple one. She
(17:55):
wasn't really asking for advice of what she should do next.
It seemed like she really just said, is birth control sinful?
And she was looking for guidance on that, And I
think bringing what the obligation of women was into the
question that he already answered, which is that no birth
control is not simple was like a step a bridge
too far.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
Yeah, he wanted to put some extra on it. But
I feel like that's the nature of advice columns, Like
you can't just write a sentence like no birth control
isn't sinful. People want to feel like you considered it,
which I think maybe when she read this question she
was satisfied with the answer. He was ultimately on her
side of the equation. But it is anonymous, so you
(18:33):
can't like go show your husband. But I don't know
hers is real specific. We got seven kids, one on
the way, four bedroom apartment in Harlem, he says.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
This honestly, that probably wasn't that rare.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Though true today it's like one person in this situation. Yeah,
who could afford a four bedroom apartment in Harlan.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Ain't nobody considering being a brand machine in these days?
Who's calling anybody that? Nobody questions that?
Speaker 2 (18:57):
So he did do a bit much with the primary
obligation of the woman is that of motherhood. But like
you said, that was probably just like power for the
course and how people thought. But I do think he's
like really ahead of his time, like even right now,
because a lot of Christians are very anti birth control,
not even anti abortion, like they are anti abortion, but
(19:18):
they don't even want people on birth control, which is
just so strange to me. But there's like a lot
of people and we see that now happening with like
the legislation that people are presenting, like they don't want
the girls to have birth control. So I was surprised
when he was like, no, it's not sinvil. It's like
makes sense why you would come to this conclusion, like
(19:38):
you shouldn't leave to things a chance. It should be
like your consent. I was like, okay, Yeah, he could
have said be fruitful and multiply exactly would a lot
of people stop if.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
You still have the ability to have children there? Yeah,
bear of the fruit. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
So I be hearing people like that today right now, yeah,
ten minutes ago. So yeah, I was pleasantly surprised by
the answer, even though you know it had its moments
where he wanted to add a little raffle dazzle for
the girls.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
So, speaking of the girls, did men ever write in.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
Yeah, of course everyone wanted advice from Martin Luther king Shaw.
Here's one from a boy who doesn't want his parents
to know he's gay.
Speaker 7 (20:17):
He writes, my problem is different from the ones most
people have. I'm a boy, but I feel about boys
the way I ought to feel about girls. I don't
want my parents to know about me. What can I do?
Is there any place where I can go for help?
Speaker 3 (20:35):
Poor baby? What did King say?
Speaker 2 (20:37):
He replied, your problem.
Speaker 6 (20:39):
Is not at all an uncommon one. However, it does
require careful attention. The type of feeling that you have
toward boys is probably not an inate tendency, but something
that has been culturally acquired. Your reasons for adopting this
habit have now been consciously suppressed or unconscious repressed. Therefore,
(21:01):
it's necessary to deal with this problem by getting back
to some of the experiences and circumstances that lead to
the habit.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
Okay, seemed like he was starting to veer a little
too far into psychologist's territory.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Well, he actually suggests the boy sees a psychiatrist. He
goes on to say that basically a psychiatrist can help
him bring this issue to the forefront of his conscious
and see what actually led him to the habit. The
habit being gay, I'm assuming and that since he's already
recognizing the problem. He's already on the road to a solution,
So that's a positive.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
H I feel like we started good by him saying
your problem is not at all an uncommon one, because
he was acknowledging that it's something that people struggle with.
But like the answer that King gave was already off
on a baffoot because he called it a problem in
the first place. Overall, his answer was giving conversion therapy vibes.
(21:57):
And I think that his answer to this child was
who he is, who's already trying to figure out so much,
like he's still developing, still understanding sexuality in so many ways,
and probably doesn't have a lot of people around him
that he can talk to. If he's writing into a
column to ask for advice about it, which is also
like an issue in itself, there's nobody actually in his
(22:20):
space that can help support him as he has feelings
that he doesn't know how to parse yet. But yeah,
it could actually be even more harmful to this child
who is like, well, it's a problem. One doctor King said,
this thing that I have is a problem, But these
are just normal feelings that I'm feeling. How are these
feeling different than all of the other feelings that I have.
What else is like wrong that I'm feeling that I
don't quite understand? So that can be very confusing. I mean,
(22:44):
we already know how damaging it is to children who
are not affirmed when they feel certain ways don't have
the support systems that they need. So it's kind of
weird because King's advice was problematic, but there were phrases
in there where I'm like, okay, like yes it does,
like when he said it does require careful attention, Well, yes,
it's something that you have to tend to, but not
(23:05):
in the way in which King meant it.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
So this one just makes me deep.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Sigh, deep sigh. What would you say to this boy?
Speaker 1 (23:15):
I would definitely start by affirming that it's not a problem,
that it is something that other people go through, that
it's not something that he needs to change. I think
I would start in the advice in that direction, and
then after that he asks for specific places. So it's
hard for me to think about giving any sort of
(23:36):
actually helpful advice without directing him to actual places that
he could go.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Oh where can I go for help?
Speaker 7 (23:42):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (23:43):
I think maybe because it's nineteen fifty, so even if
there are places like that seem like they might be
like a good resource. It could be just like conversion therapy.
But like, I feel like the most basic advice would
be like talk to a trusted adult, like a teacher
or a cod which it was the nineteen fifties, away
you know there are somebody gay, or absolutely are somebody
(24:04):
that you know wouldn't care if you were gay.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
My issue with saying that, though, is that could easily
lead back to his parents, because I feel like that
was also more in the culture. And yeah, but I
think that's difficult though, because he trusts that person. But
that doesn't mean that the adult's idea of what the
right thing to do is in going back to the parents.
I think that sometimes adults think the best thing to
do is to notify the parents, and they're like, you
(24:27):
need to know this about your child, And the child
already knows one thing because they're the ones who are
interfacing with their parents, have that intimate relationship with their
parents in the actual home space.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
So I trust.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
I also trust this child to have agency and intelligence
to understand that their parent, you know, how their parents
would respond most likely even though that may you know,
that may not be true, they may respond with more
care and kindness than the child may be expecting. But
I do think that sometimes adults who think they have
a child's best interest at heart say that, well Disney
(25:00):
to go back to the parents, and they might not
keep it confidential. And that's my only hesitance with that.
It's just like not knowing exactly how a person that
a child would consider a trusted adult would choose to
enact that trust.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Yeah, that's fair.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
All that said, it still wouldn't hurt to like, for
King to give that advice to the child within this column.
You know, it's better than just not being able to
do anything for the.
Speaker 3 (25:23):
Child at all.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
Yeah, I do think one of the interesting things about
advice columns but just like kind of expousing your thoughts
on what other people should do in their lives publicly,
is it really about the person who's like writing in
or the specific person that you're talking about. But for
the people in your life where that situation applies to them,
(25:45):
now they see you a lot clearer. So if he had,
like a child who was having these feelings about liking
boys when they should like girls, or liking girls when
they should like boys, and they see this advice or like, oh,
my dad sees this as a price, or Uncle Martin
Jesus as a problem, or who whatever the case may be. Like, however,
the child relates to Martin Luther King the same way
(26:07):
if there was you know, he's a minister in Atlanta
and there's a woman in his church that finds herself
in like an abusive relationship, whether it's verbally or physically,
and she's like, oh, well, I read Reverend King's advice
column and ebony, and this is what he said should
happen the same way, like people these days are talking
(26:29):
about people who've like had abortions, but like you might
not know who in your life has had an abortion.
But like when you talk so bad about people who
have had it abortions, like the people around you're like, oh,
you're not safe, you know what I mean? So I
think that might be like an unintended consequence of all
the things that doctor King is saying and not saying
that all of his responses were like problematic. There are
something that were good, Like he's against a death penalty,
(26:49):
he was against the war, and people ask him things
about that as well. I kind of pulled out the
most delicious one. But yeah, I think that's an unintended
consequence for this advice column, all advice columns. And just
like when you like spout out things about like a celebrity,
you know, like celebrity having a baby out of way, like,
oh my god, she's so stupid. But then your homegirl
just found out she's pregnant and she wanted to come
(27:12):
and tell you, but she sees you typing on Twitter
that all women who have babies with niggas out of
way like are dumb, and the it's like, oh, well,
now I can't talk to you.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
And they're forming these opinions based on people's lives who
they have no idea about. So I also feel like
it's easy to have less trust in when people are
saying those kinds of things on the internet versus what
they say with you in private. I feel like it's
an interesting conundrum because like, yeah, on the one hand,
you could see these people saying all these negative things
(27:41):
in forming opinions based on lives they don't know it
in public spaces, but like, probably what they say to
you in their face about a life they know a
little bit better is more honest.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
Yeah, probably more empathetic, but I don't know. It's almost
like did youso wear bandana is on they head and
drive hoopties are dumb and be like, oh my god,
I'm never coming to you for advice.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
Do you think I've dubbed?
Speaker 2 (28:07):
King continue publishing the column until December nineteen fifty eight,
when his doctor advised him to limit his commitments following
his September nineteen fifty eight stabbing. I think it's a
great piece of history. Like we said at the top,
folks are always invoking King and twisting his words. Here
we get to hear directly from King in a less
formal way. And remember King was in his late twenties
when he wrote this column. His opinions would have evolved,
(28:29):
probably did evolve up until his death at thirty nine
years old.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
I think that's a good point though, to you know,
think about all the ways that people are co opting
doctor King's words and saying what he should have said.
Everybody who says those kind of things are acting like
they are the foremost experts on doctor King's ideology, on
his biography, and we have to remember that they're not.
(28:54):
Like people feel really empowered to say how they think
doctor King would have felt, and what they think Doctor
King would have done, not having done a ton of
research on his history. So I think we have to
take their words with a grain of salt and also
remember that like at the end of the day, we
(29:15):
can't say any of this, None of us can say
any of this because doctor King is no longer with us,
and we can learn from the words that he did
leave behind and all of the other parts of his
legacy that he left behind, like family and like all
of the people who followed in his footsteps and learned
from him. But he's not here to say the things
(29:36):
that we are surmising that we're guessing that he would
have said.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
Yeah, and I mean there are foremost experts on doctor King,
and like they don't do that. And like as we
saw people like that one little quote about the interpreting
me in a colorblind, raceless society, or they love that
quote about darkness cannot drive out darkness, only light can
do that.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
Do you know that one? Yes, I do.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
It would have hated on a bridge here that I
hate driving over that brane. So yeah, people have they
little keen quotes that they liked to cherry pick, but
if you really read his stuff, like, they won't be
quoting what he says about like war in capitalism.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
It's not feel good. Yeah, if it's not feel good
enough for them, it's not good enough to be a SoundBite. Yeah,
a little pithy, little SoundBite, but hey. You can read
more of King's Ebony magazine at Vice column at Vice
for Living online through Stanford University's archive. Give it a
gander and let us know what you think.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
Now it's time for roll credits. The segment where we
give credit to a person, place, or a thing that
we encountered during the week is who are what would
you like to give credit to today?
Speaker 1 (30:44):
I like to give credit to head wraps. I'm currently wearing.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
A head rap rocking it. Don't say you're just wearing it,
rocking it.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
I was leaving the house today and I've just you
know how sometimes you just get tired of dan your
hair being the way it is. I love my hair.
Don't touch my hair. I am not I am not
my hair, but I was it was just getting on
my nerves earlier. So I was like, let me put
it up something that's comfortable. And I was like, I
(31:16):
haven't been wearing heat wraps lately, and they're an easy
way to like still feel good about myself, still feel fashionable,
but also like head wraps have a lot of symbology
in so many different ways, and so I can still
like hold all of that while I'm wearing this thing
where it's like I want my hair to be out
(31:37):
today as well.
Speaker 3 (31:39):
So that's why I want to give credit to head
wraps today. Shout out to head wraps.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Okay, I can never look cute in them, like you
got yours tied up. I can't. I don't know how
to do that, and I'd be looking at the videos
and I'm like why I should do not look like that?
But yeah, shout out to hair wraps. I would like
to give credit to time travel and the time travel
that happens when you read a book that was written,
(32:04):
you know, decades and decades ago before you were born
for your thought of and you read it and you're
like yes, like I understand exactly what you're saying, like
you are speaking to me right in this moment. I
just finished reading The Fire Next Time, and there are
so many lines where I was like, yup, that's going
on right now today, Like I feel you and I
think that's a particular thing with literature, where you get
(32:26):
to travel from the comfort of your wherever you're reading
and really know what was going on in the minds
of people at a particular time. And I think about
that when I write too, that hopefully someone will read
my words in the future and be like, yup, she right,
So shout out to time travel and we will see
y'all next week.
Speaker 7 (32:47):
Bye bye.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media.
This episode was written by Eves Jeffco and Katie Mitchell,
acting for Martin Luther King Junior in today's episode done
by Spencer Bynes. It was edited and produced by Tari Harrison.
Follow us on Instagram at on Themeshow.
Speaker 3 (33:10):
You can also send us.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
An email at Helloa at on Theme dot show. Head
to on Theme dot show to check out the show
notes for episodes. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows.
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