March 7, 2024 • 33 mins
Storytelling ain’t always love, peace, and kumbaya. Sometimes our favorite storytellers beef with each other in public. And we, the audience, eat it up.
In this episode, Katie and Yves take a walk down a beef-laden memory lane, reexamining feuds between Zora Neale Hurston and other Harlem Renaissance writers.
Get show notes at ontheme.show
Follow us on Instagram @onthemeshow
Email us at hello@ontheme.show
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
On theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
As we're already into the third month of twenty twenty four,
this year has started off with a bang, A very
chaotic year in general, but for black storytelling in particular.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Twenty twenty four got Hands. But you think the black
storytelling realm has been chaotic too?
Speaker 2 (00:34):
I mean, who can forget Kat Williams stirring the pot
during his Club Chashe interview in the beginning of January, You.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Having an unnatural allegiance to losers.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
It's not like you.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
He had the Internet going wild with all the allegations.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Epitome of standing on big business.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Then, near the end of January, the h town hottie
Megan thee Stallion released a single Hits, where she took
shots at unnamed ops.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Unnamed but one rapper did decide to respond.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
What they be saying about hit dogs anyway? Nicki Mina's
responded via tweet, Instagram lives, and a radio app called
station Head, And finally, in a song titled Bigfoot.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
The girls are fighting in the words of the late
Rodney King.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
Can we all get along? Can we get along?
Speaker 2 (01:24):
It's looking like the answer is no. And with Kat
coming for Cedric the Entertainer and Steve.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Harvey, Ricky Smalley and Ludacris, Kevin hart Yup and Tiffany
Hattish everybody.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Basically people were saying he was hating on them, trying
to bring them down, But I don't think that's quite it.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
You don't think Cat's a hater. I know you got
your pH D player hater degree.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
I mean, I do think he'd be hating a little bit,
but as we discussed in our episode, I like to
thank my haters. Offering principal criticism isn't hating. And when
someone like Kat Williams, who is objectively funnier than comedians
like Steve Harvey and Cedric the Entertainer, has comments about
how they carry themselves as comics, I think that ventures
into Hayden's first cousin beef, which I happen to have
(02:11):
a bachelor's.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
In beef, is nothing new, but it's particularly raw this year.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Yes, and with Meghan and Niki, one of the main
talking points I saw was that Nicki Minaj was going
to ruin her legacy by trying to go back and
forth with Meghan, and while I am te Meghan one
hundred percent. I don't know if that's actually true if
we look at past beef's in the storytelling realm. People
love to rehash beef, sure, but the few artists find
themselves in rarely overshadow their most important works. Take Tupac
(02:40):
versus Biggie, for example, their beef had a fatal ending.
But I've never heard anyone claim that their legacies have
been ruined from beefing or Spike Lee coming for Tyler Perry.
When folks still a retrospective on Spike's career, I don't
think there will be much hand ringing about him beefing
with Medea's creator. The beef filmmakers, poets, musicians, and authors
get into maybe interesting like a footnote in their legacy,
(03:03):
but from what I've witnessed, it doesn't completely ruin the
public's perception of them over time. I'm Katie and I'm Eves,
and I got a question, which one of y'all won't beef?
Speaker 1 (03:20):
So, Hayten and beef In are first cousins, Yes, I'd
say so, So how would you define beef or beef in?
Speaker 2 (03:27):
I define beef as a mutual feud among peers or
near peers. So there's like no way I could be
beefing with Oprah. I could offer some principal critiques which
I have, or I could be hate no, no, but
I can't beef with her. We're just not in the
same stratosphere.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
Okay, So per your definition, it takes two to tango
and they have to be on the same level or
they'reabout right.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
So her bff, Gail King, could be beef with her,
I can't beef with her. And when you look at
the history of black storytelling, you'll find plenty of equally
yoked beef. Because I'm a bookish gal, we'll focus on
beef between writers, specifically Zora Neilhurston and other writers of
the Harlem Renaissance. Part one, Zora Neil Hurston Versus Langston Hughes.
(04:28):
Let's venture back to post World War One America. It
was the dawn of the Jazz Age, and as music, art,
and literature converge. With this great migration, the Harlem Renaissance
is born, an explosion of cultural, social, and intellectual and
artistic expression rooted in the Black experience. Two literary stars
(04:52):
who became synonymous with the Harlem Renaissance are none other
than Zora Neilhurston and Lenggston Hughes and nineteen twenty seven,
the two had a chance encounter outside a mobile Alabama
train station. Zora was in town to interview Kadjo Lewis,
the last living former slave born in Africa. Langston was
in Alabama giving readings and doing some research. The two
(05:13):
decided to go on a tour of the Deep South.
During their road trip, they learned they shared a love
for black folklore, everyday Black Folks, an adventure. In her
nineteen eighty nine essay Turning into Love some thoughts on
surviving and meeting Langston Hughes, Alice Walker says of Zora
and Langston's friendship, it is so easy to see how
and why they would love each other. Each was to
(05:33):
the other an affirming example of what black people could
be like. Wow, crazy, creative, spontaneous, at ease with who
they are, and funny.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Damn. I really don't want their friendship to end now.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
They did maintain a close friendship for many years and
even had the same patron, Charlotte Mason. Patroon basically a
rich white person who supported artists financially, and that's nice
of Charlotte I guess well, Charlotte did give both Zora
and Langston healthy monthly stipends. She was still pretty racist though.
She believed African Americans and Native Americans were quote younger
(06:09):
races unspoiled by white civilization, and that American culture could
be re energized by exposing it to primitive ones.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
That was very paternalistic of her.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Yeah, it turns out Charlotte was central and Dora and
Langston's friendship, and they're falling out. She demanded complete devotion
from the black folks she was sponsoring. She even controlled
Zora's work to the point that Zora wasn't allowed to
show anyone else without Charlotte's permission. That being said, Zora
and Lanston did produce some of their most enduring works
during the time that she was sponsoring them. But here's
(06:41):
where the beef comes in, and it all starts as
a play called mule Bone. Zora and Langston began working
on mule Bone in March nineteen thirty. The play was
based on a folk tale Zor her during one of
her anthropological trips to Florida.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
The pair dedicated the play to Louise.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Thompson, their typist sounds good so far, so by June
the play was almost done. Zora went away for the summer,
took her notes, and promised to return in the fall
so they could finish the play. But when she came back,
she would not return Langston's cause. Zora felt that Langston
wanted to list Louise Thompson The Typist as a third
contributor and was not down with that at all. Some
(07:25):
historians believed Zora was jealous of Langston and Louise's relationship,
but I don't know, I don't know. Also, during this time,
Langston was in the process of severing his relationship with Charlotte.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
Ooh, I knew she was gonna come back in it.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Yeah, Charlotte was controlling Langston too. According to Langston Hughes
biographer Faith Barry, Charlotte chose the books Langston could read,
the music he can listen to, and the plays he
could watch. So when Langston got out of his relationship
with Charlotte, she preyed on his downfall and took Zora's
side in her dispute with Langston. Some historians think Zora
(07:58):
was trying to protect her relationship with Charlotte by shunning
Hughes because while Langston cut himself off from Charlotte's purse strings,
Zora remained close to her till Charlotte died in nineteen
forty six.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
Zora wasn't trying to jeopardize that bag, y'all.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
And wasn't, so she's not communicating with Langston right, And
in October of nineteen thirty she submits mule Bone for copyright,
listing only herself as the author.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
Zora Girl Yes.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
And in January of nineteen thirty one, Langston finds out
that a copy of mule Bone, listing only hersu's name,
was sent to Gilpen Players, an all black theater company
in Cleveland, for their consideration. I know he was mad, big, mad, furious,
I rate, but Zora wasn't the one who sent the
play to Gilpen.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
It was actually Carl van Vechten.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Zora had sent him a copy and he said it
to Gilpen without telling her. During all this kerfuffle, Langston
applied for a copyright under both their names. Gilpin wanted
to stage the play, but it still neededn't work. There
was some back and forth. Zora refused to allow productions
to play. Then she authorized it under the condition that
she could work with Langston on changes. Then she sent
(09:04):
Langston a letter saying he didn't write any of the play.
So with all that drama, Gilpen decided not to go
forward with the play, and Langston Hughes's copy of Meal
Bone in his papers at Yale. He pinned a handwritten
note summarizing it down with him Zora Ammuel Bone. The
notation reads, this play was never done because the authors
fell out.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Dang, so no one ever got to see Meal Bone.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
Oh no, they did.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
It hit the stage for the first time in nineteen
ninety one, over sixty years after it was written. It
was met with mostly negative reviews and the consensus that
if Langston and Zora would have finished the play together
then it would have been much better.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Wow, the beef really impacted the art. That's tragic.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
And while a copyright issue was the center of Zora
and Langston's beef, ideological differences fueled Zora Neil Herstin's and
Richard writes beef and they did not mince words.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
More on that after the Break.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Part two, zor Neil Hurston versus Richard Wright and other
respectable negroes to understand why Zora Neilhurston and Richer Wright
had beef. You have to understand some of the contexts
of the Harlem Renaissance. The Harlem Renaissance was an artistic
flowering of the New Negro movement. Its participants celebrated their
(10:24):
African heritage and embraced self expression, rejecting long standing and
often degrading stereotypes. Richard Wright wrote what you might call
protest novels, works that were overtly political and interested in
sending a capital M message. Richard Wright used his role
as a Harlem Renaissance writer to reveal the humanity of
black people through the strength of arts and letters. And
(10:44):
Zor Neil Hurston was explicitly not on that she wrote
for the sake of writing, rather than for a greater
political good. Some even questioned her standing as a Harlem
Renaissance writer because of her flat refusal to politicize her
early writings. Richard Wright and other writer's acute Zora of
using African American stereotypes in her writing to pander to
white audiences.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
That is an evergreen accusation. I've read some of Zora's work.
What did Richard say about it? Like, what did he
find offensive?
Speaker 2 (11:11):
So the back and forth between them starts after Their
Eyes Were Watching God is published.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
Give a quick synopsis for folks who aren't familiar with
the book.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Sure Their Eyes is written using a Southern dialect. It
tells the story of Janie, who, after childhood hardships and
difficult marriages, finds the love she seeks in a young
blue singer named Teacake. The two live happily until Jane
(11:38):
shoots him after he attacks her. Richard wrote a scathing
review that appeared in The New Masses on October fifth,
nineteen thirty seven.
Speaker 4 (11:48):
In part, he says, miss Herston voluntarily continues in her
novel the tradition which was forced upon the Negro in
the theater, That is the menstrual technique that makes the
white folks laugh. Her characters eat and laugh and cry
and work and kill. They swing like a pendulum eternally
in that safe and narrow orbit in which America likes
(12:09):
to see the Negro live between laughter and tears.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
It was really bold of Richard to say that in
public in that way.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Yeah, I like they was going at each other, But
he didn't step there. He goes on to.
Speaker 4 (12:22):
Say, the sensory sweep of her novel carries no theme,
no message, no thought. In the main, her novel is
not addressed to the Negro but to a white audience
whose chauvinistic tastes she knows how to satisfy. She exploits
that phase of Negro life which is quaint, the phase
which evokes a piteous smile on the lips of the
superior race.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
That's really hard hitting, honestly, and that's a pretty big accusation.
Speaker 3 (12:51):
It was like a very eloquent read.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
Yes, a read I feel like read is putting it
very lightly though, and other black writers agreed with Richard Wright,
including Ralph Ellison, W. E. B.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Du Bois, Alan Locke, and Otis Ferguson. But white audiences
reviewed the book positively, which.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
I'm sure Richard saw as evidence that his take on
it was right.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
Yeah, but not only him. Remember Charlotte Mason, Zora's patron.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Mm hmm, how could I forget? What about her?
Speaker 4 (13:21):
Well?
Speaker 2 (13:22):
As I said, she was really controlling in Racist She
got Zora to sign an agreement that stated that all
the material that Zora wrote would be the legal property
of Charlotte, and Zora could only use it with written permission.
In Yearning Race, Gender, and Cultural Politics, Bell Hooks asserts
that it is difficult to believe that Herston was blind
(13:42):
to the cultural imperialism the white supremacy of her sponsor.
She goes on to argue that because of Charlotte Mason's
financial support of herson, she enforced specific themes and subjects
onto Hurston's work.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
So Charlotte was getting Zora to include the stereotypical depictions
of black folks that Richard White sound offensive.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
That's the thought process.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
But I say, even if it wasn't explicit, Zora knew
that the lady had her views right, and she knew
she needed money, so preemptively added some stuff that she
knew would reinforce Charlotte's worldview.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
Mm hm, that would make sense. What does Zorra have
to say about all of this anything?
Speaker 4 (14:19):
Sure?
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Did?
Speaker 2 (14:20):
She said, I am not interested in the race problem,
but I am interested in the problems of individuals, white
ones and black ones.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
I guess that goes back to what you said about
her writing being apolitical.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
She criticized what she described as quote race pride and
race consciousness, describing it as a thing to be a board,
stating suppose.
Speaker 5 (14:41):
A Negro does something really magnificent and not glory, not
in the benefit to mankind, but in the fact that
the doer was a Negro. Must I not also go
hang my head in shame when a member of my
race does something execrable. The white race did not go
into a laboratory and invent incandescent light. That was edison.
If you are under the impression that every white man
(15:03):
is an Edison, just look around a bit. If you
have the idea that every Negro is a carver, you
have better take off plenty of time to do your searching.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
What do you say about that?
Speaker 1 (15:15):
It's a little bit troubling. In some ways, She's not wrong,
you know what I'm saying, Like, yes, we are all
made differently. We all don't have the same paths in life.
We all don't, you know, have the same roles, and
we do different things. That's true. But I think this
kind of sentiment and response to race pride and race
(15:37):
consciousness in a way ignores the reason behind race pride
and race consciousness, which is that we've been through a
lot of shit. So a little dismissive in ways. But
I'm not gonna say I don't feel where she's coming from,
because you know, we take the ups with the downs.
That's a fair point across the board. I just think
it's a little misplaced in this instance.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
I really interested to see what Zora Neil Hurston thinks
of her like standing in American culture now, because she
is like lumped into all these Harlem Renaissance writers who,
for the most part, were on that race pride stuff,
even though she wasn't. When I first learned about Zora
Neil Heherston in high school, as far as like her
books and stuff, I think their eyes were watching God.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
It wasn't even a sign.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
It was like, you can read these five books, and
like her book was the only black one, so I
read that one, but the teacher wasn't like, oh, zorineel
Hurston was like against race pride, you know what I mean?
And I think like at that time it was pretty
well known that she was kind of like a contrarian
in that regard. But I think as a contrarian you
got to be contrary. You can't agree with these niggas,
(16:43):
even if you kind of do what do you mean?
I think that was her role in the Harlem Renissance
was to be contrary to Richard Wright, to W. E. B.
Du Bois to like say these things like I'm not black,
I'm Zora. You know she said it first. Okay, sorry, Yeah,
I think that's a fair point. And even if it
wasn't the case where she was specifically trying to be contrarian,
(17:03):
it's like she wasn't the only person who was not
trying to be in the race consciousness lane at the time,
Like there were other people who were writing who wanted
to be more focused on like historical fact rather than
writing things that were about uplifting the race, rather than
writing things that were about being.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
Race positive specifically. So she wasn't alone in thinking this way,
because I think Drusilla Dungee Houston was writing at the time,
and she also was on this way where she was
talking about historical thing and the roots of where black
people came from, and she shared kind of similar sentiments.
She was still in the category of racial uplift, but
(17:38):
also in some ways said things that were derogatory a
little bit about other writers in the Harlem Renaissance because
of how much they focused on art as opposed to
educating people about the real black history.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
Basically, Okay, because I know Zora got into it with
w Duvois and you know, this is like a little
bit after the Harlem Renaissance, but saying that the brown
versus Board decision like wasn't good basically, and that you know,
y'all so focused on race, y'all so focused on like
getting close to white people, which is a criticism of
(18:14):
the Civil rights movement and desegregation. And yeah, but I
don't know, I really do think that Bell Hooks is
onto something like having this white woman who is sponsoring
your life, like you wouldn't be able to really like
write these things. And she's racist and you know that, Yeah,
you know, she's racist. She thinks you're primitive, and you know,
(18:37):
be next to you. It's giving get out, like you know,
like you use some of you to reinvigorate herself.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
So I do think that played a part in it.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
And it kind of goes back to our episode the
Black Struggle Industrial Complex, like when you have like this
taste maker in your head kind of like controlling the
art you put out. You're gonna put little goofy things
in there to appease them, you know, Like they're saying
that she used all these stereotypes, and she used the
(19:07):
Southern dialect, which when I read, their eyes were watching God.
I like the Southern dialect. I never read a book
like that before. But I know some people were like,
I literally cannot read this because I can't.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
Catch the flow of the dialogue.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
So I do think Charlotte played a big role in
like what she spoke out against and the art that
she put out. But I mean I could see both sides.
I can see why people were beefing with her, and
I can see why she was like, f ya, I'm
gonna do.
Speaker 3 (19:32):
I'm gonna do.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Me and Charlotte, Yeah, me and my girl.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
Did Sora ever review Richard's work.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Yeah, and she came swinging too. In April of nineteen
thirty eight, she reviewed Uncle Tom's Children, which are novella
set in the Deep South that focus on the lives
of black folks during the post slavery era and their
resistance to white racism and oppression.
Speaker 5 (19:54):
Sora writes, this is a book about hatreds Mister Wright
serves noticed by his title that he speaks of people
in revolt, and his stories are so grim that the
dismal swamp of race hatred must be where they live.
Not one act of understanding and sympathy comes to pass
in the entire work.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
And that was just the first paragraph. Mind you, dang,
did they ever squash the beef? It doesn't appear so
their eyes were watching. God went out of print shortly
after its release in nineteen thirty seven and didn't get
reprinted until nineteen seventy eight. Many believe that happened because
of Zora's refusal to participate in the racial uplift movement
championed by W. E. B. Du Bois, and in nineteen
(20:34):
thirty three essay titled the Negro College du Boys appears
to throw a shot at those of Zora's ilk.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
He writes, why was.
Speaker 4 (20:42):
It that the renaissance of literature which began among negroes
ten years ago has never taken real and lasting route.
It was because it was a transplanted and exotic thing.
It was a literature written for the benefit of white
people and at the behest of white readers, and started
out privately from the white point of view. It never
had a real Negro constituency, and it did not grow
(21:06):
out of the inmost heart and frank experience of Negros.
On such an artificial basis, no real literature can grow.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Zora continued to publish some essays, but ran into money
and health problems and died in nineteen sixty after a
series of strokes. Right moved to Paris in the late
nineteen forties and eventually became a citizen of France. He
published dozens of novels, essays, and other nonfiction works well
into the late nineteen fifties until dying also in nineteen sixty,
due to heart related problems. It's interesting that they both
(21:55):
died in nineteen sixty of heart problems.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
Yeah, I think there were twin flames.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
No, but yeah, so, like I don't know how much
you know about like Dora's life after the hollow and issues,
But she died like penniless and was buried in an
unmarked grave, and Alice Walker had to kind of rediscover
her for the public right, and that's how her book
(22:21):
came back into print. Because she wasn't just beefing with Langston.
And Langston tried to reach out to Zora some more,
and she just would not speak to him anymore. She
wasn't just beefing with like say, she wasn't just beefing
with Richard right, and she was beef wood to boys
like she had all these people who she was just
like opposites of. And I say that her legacy hadn't
(22:42):
been ruined, but for Alice Walker, we.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
Might've just like not known who she is.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
So I don't know, maybe her legacy could have been
for her friend or just like erase maybe is a
better a better way to phrase it, because there were
those decades after she died that people really weren't checking
for her for her work, even being buried on my grave,
you know, just kind of like the disregard for her
as a person, let alone an artist and a writer.
But I do think, like it is fun to see
(23:10):
these reviews coming out, right, I like when the beef
is generative?
Speaker 1 (23:15):
What do you mean by that?
Speaker 3 (23:16):
Give me some art, Give me some.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Art to to showcase the beef.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
You want the distract.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
I want to distract, don't tweet.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
I have something more substantial.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
Yeah, I want to know that you've thought about this,
that you considered the other person's point of view and
you think it's dead wrong and you think they live
in a racist swamp.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
That dismal one girl. So at the time, this was happening.
Zora had her stature. She wasn't. She didn't have that
grade of a stature at that point where she was
beefing with Richard Wright.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
I think it depends on the audience, right, So the
other Harlem Renaissance writers, mostly the men, they didn't like
what she was doing. As I said, the white audiences
loved her book, you know what I'm saying, it loved it.
It was Charlotte's stuff really until she signed it back
to Zora nel Hurston. Such a strange agreement. But so
white audiences liked it, and then the black Harlem Renaissance
(24:11):
men didn't like it because I think they're like more
mission driven, you know, like we're gonna make this work
that is going towards this greater good of people realizing
black people's humanity. And I think we see a lot
of that now. Like I said, there's always the same
conversations go on and on. It's like, oh, are you
writing to better the condition of black people or are
(24:34):
you just creating art? And like sometimes people do get
frustrated with people who are like kind of a racial.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Yeah, but I think in a way, you know, the
racial uplift work you can also argue that work in
that vein is made for white audiences too, because we're
trying to convince them our our humanity. We're not trying to,
for the most part, convince other black people of our humanity.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
I think it's probably fifty to fifty because these people
were very close to slavery, right, so you had a relative,
most likely that you knew had been enslaved. So if
you've been told that you are less than, you're subhuman,
you're not as smart, You're gonna believe that on a
certain level too. So I think the even if the
people weren't like, you know, running out to go read
(25:17):
a du boy's essay, they knew that there was this
important black man who wore a sue and kutacral good
and went to Harvard and taught at Atlanta University.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
So I think it was kind.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
Of twofold, like, hey, black people, you are somebody, and
hey white people were just as good too, type of thing.
And I do think that is kind of like what
we see now, Like when I watch a Blackish, I'm like,
this is for white people, but then it's like, oh,
you see like this black family, now all of them
are mixed for real, that's a different subjects. Family.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
Let's stay on track here.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
On you know ABC.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
They live in a nice house, they got good jobs,
everybody looking nice, hair done, nails done everything, They got
cute clothes, they get along for the most part. It's
like the representation of it all like aspirational, Like you know,
I ain't lively like that. So I think it's showing
like white people that like, oh, white people are human too,
which is like such a low bar. But then also
(26:15):
like black people like, oh, this is what you could have,
this what you could be, this is what your kids
could be.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
So do you know what white audiences said about the
beefs and how they felt about it? Because the thing
that I'm thinking here is how if you're being a
respectable negro, you know, you'll hear a lot of people
say you can't let them see us doing all this,
like all this in fighting, like we need to be unified.
We have all these other problems that are against all
of us together as a race, and we're doing all
of this in fighting. Do you know, because Zora had
(26:41):
a lot of white people in her audience, what they
said about these beefs she was having, was she like
were her audiences like back up, off my girl, or
were they like, oh, look at the blacks, they really
are on civilized.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
That's a good question. I don't know about the general public.
I know, like the people that were in like the
Black People's Business and the Harlem Renaissance, like Charlotte and
carl And I think it was just kind of like
camps and I'm speaking mostly to like her beef with
Lenston Hughes, the white people that she was like in
like direct community with kind of just took her side.
She was more well known than Langston at the time,
you know, he was younger, so they took her side.
(27:13):
I don't know what the general public was saying, but
that is a good question because that is a common sentiment,
like we.
Speaker 3 (27:20):
Doing stuff in front of white people.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
But yeah, it would have been interesting to see like
full blown pieces of art from Zora and Richard coming
out of the beef. One thing about Uncle Tom's children.
It did get kind of like, oh, this is too sentimental,
Like that was like not only Zora Neilhrson was saying that,
And so then he wrote Native Son, which was supposed
to be like his serious work. So he did kind
(27:45):
of respond in that way and kind of changed his approach.
But yeah, I love a generative beef. Like I want
to listen to hit him up and who shatya. I
want to dissect the lyrics, you know what I'm saying.
I want to like get in the booth. I don't
want this yap yap right.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Because it shortens the distance between us and who the
artist was because we seeing them angry, that's the side
of them we might not have seen before.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Yeah, Like you can be angry in the art, but
when you're just being unhinged, it's like you're not being thoughtful,
You're not being an artist, You're just talking your shit,
which you know you're human, so I guess. But I
think it's always worth interesting to like put the beef
in the art, write your thoughts down, whatever your medium is,
if it's paint, paint the beef. This is your PSA
(28:32):
to them people.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
But I think it's cool too because it really is criticism,
you know. Like the quotes were harsh, you know, I
do think that they were harsh, you know, and there
are other black people who care about Zora and WB
du bois to saying these things, and other upstanding people
are saying these things they have right, they have weight,
you know, and I think, you know, you really have
to be considerate about the things you say when you
have rank in the black community. It's like, is it
(28:54):
really do I really need to say this out loud
in public?
Speaker 4 (28:57):
You know?
Speaker 1 (28:58):
What is the service that I'm doing for people? But
at the same time, you know, I care a lot
about arts criticism as an arts critic myself. Like, I
think it is very healthy to have these conversations in public,
and it's nice to see people who were really thinking
about this and who were afraid to share their opinions
on it and not just to be like okay representation,
(29:19):
like okay, like I have something to say about it,
not really feeling it, and I feel like my opinion
has some substance behind it, you know, it's not just
floating on thin air, and I want to say it
because it needs to be sid So I appreciate both
sides of that and that way too, and it's refreshing
and I think healthy to see that kind of criticism,
(29:41):
that kind of back and forth happening between black artists.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Yeah, it definitely gives people like me who like to
be in the archives something to do in like some tea,
some history. But it also shows that hystorical figures were
people with emotions, which I feel like sometimes we forget,
like there are people with emotions. They weren't just these
like great men, great women at all times. You know
they're in relationship with people. And when you're in relationship
(30:06):
with people, you're gonna be beefing, you know. So diving
through the archives, you'll find many examples of your fased beefing.
It's normal.
Speaker 3 (30:14):
You're probably beefing with three people at this very moment.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
Speak for yourself.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
So while it might make us uncomfortable or disappointed to
see it happening in real time with artists today, remember
that beef has this place in storytelling too. Now it's
time for roll credits, the segment where we give credit
to a person, place, or thing that we've encountered.
Speaker 3 (30:39):
During the week eves. Who are what would you like
to give credit to?
Speaker 1 (30:42):
I like to give credit to hiking. I really like hiking.
I like being outside and fresh air. And there have
been some really nice, sunny, crisp cool but not you know,
not two cold days and I've been able to spend
them outside. It gives me lots of time to think.
I find that I've been getting very, very emotional on
hikes lately because they remind me of things that make
(31:04):
me emotional. But I'm appreciative of it. I'm like, Okay,
I was crying the metal yesterday because I like, nobody's here,
so nobody can see me cry. Like this is nice.
Like you know, I think crying can be a very
insular thing too, and it's like often done indoors. So
it's nice to be outside and be like, Okay, look
at all this around me, look at what I'm still
grateful for. So I appreciate the space that literally being
(31:27):
outside the space gives me to like come into my
full being and it's a good time.
Speaker 4 (31:33):
I like that.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
I will give credit to reading books out of order.
I just started doing this and because you know, I'm
on my nonfiction wave right now. And so I was
reading this book and I was trying to read it
cover to cover and I was just like, I'm not
feeling this chapter. So I skipped it and I was like, well,
what chapter will I be lucky? And so I looked
(31:55):
at the table context I was like, this sounds like
an interesting chapter.
Speaker 3 (31:57):
I'm gonna read this.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
And now was it a book of essays?
Speaker 2 (31:59):
No, it was like a historical thing, but it was
kind of going like too deep in the weeds on
some things, and I was like, I do not care,
and I didn't like feel like, oh, because I didn't
know about this treaty, that I am missing out on
knowing something that happened in the nineties. Personally, so I
want to give credit to reading books out of order,
(32:21):
maybe just picking a chapter or two and getting what
you need for the book and not feeling bullied by
reading a bunch of stuff that you don't care about.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
I'm here for you reading as you would like to.
But I must say a response that I would be
very uncomfortable with closing the book and being like I
finished it.
Speaker 3 (32:38):
I would say I finished it. You would just write
some chapters.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
Oh okay, yeah, okay, yeah, you're announcing this too no
to myself. You know, I'm just saying, like, oh, I
finished that book. I have marked that off the list.
If I missed parts of it, it would just be
a personal thing, not anything to like be reconciled with
anybody else. Who's what my patrons and my patrons don't
need to know that I didn't finish the book. Did
(33:02):
you read all of it?
Speaker 3 (33:04):
Did you want to do some research?
Speaker 1 (33:05):
Nigga? But that's all. I like that though, because you know,
you know what you need and what you want when
you want it.
Speaker 3 (33:12):
See y'all next week.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
Bye y'all.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
Hi Ma.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media.
This episode was written by Eves Jeffco and Katie Mitchell.
It was edited and produced by Tari Harrison. Follow us
on Instagram at on Theme Show. You can also send
us an email at hello at on Theme dot Show.
Head to on Theme dot Show to check out the
(33:39):
show notes for episodes. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows.
On theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
As we're already into the third month of twenty twenty four,
this year has started off with a bang, A very
chaotic year in general, but for black storytelling in particular.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Twenty twenty four got Hands. But you think the black
storytelling realm has been chaotic too?
Speaker 2 (00:34):
I mean, who can forget Kat Williams stirring the pot
during his Club Chashe interview in the beginning of January, You.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Having an unnatural allegiance to losers.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
It's not like you.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
He had the Internet going wild with all the allegations.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Epitome of standing on big business.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Then, near the end of January, the h town hottie
Megan thee Stallion released a single Hits, where she took
shots at unnamed ops.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Unnamed but one rapper did decide to respond.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
What they be saying about hit dogs anyway? Nicki Mina's
responded via tweet, Instagram lives, and a radio app called
station Head, And finally, in a song titled Bigfoot.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
The girls are fighting in the words of the late
Rodney King.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
Can we all get along? Can we get along?
Speaker 2 (01:24):
It's looking like the answer is no. And with Kat
coming for Cedric the Entertainer and Steve.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Harvey, Ricky Smalley and Ludacris, Kevin hart Yup and Tiffany
Hattish everybody.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Basically people were saying he was hating on them, trying
to bring them down, But I don't think that's quite it.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
You don't think Cat's a hater. I know you got
your pH D player hater degree.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
I mean, I do think he'd be hating a little bit,
but as we discussed in our episode, I like to
thank my haters. Offering principal criticism isn't hating. And when
someone like Kat Williams, who is objectively funnier than comedians
like Steve Harvey and Cedric the Entertainer, has comments about
how they carry themselves as comics, I think that ventures
into Hayden's first cousin beef, which I happen to have
(02:11):
a bachelor's.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
In beef, is nothing new, but it's particularly raw this year.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Yes, and with Meghan and Niki, one of the main
talking points I saw was that Nicki Minaj was going
to ruin her legacy by trying to go back and
forth with Meghan, and while I am te Meghan one
hundred percent. I don't know if that's actually true if
we look at past beef's in the storytelling realm. People
love to rehash beef, sure, but the few artists find
themselves in rarely overshadow their most important works. Take Tupac
(02:40):
versus Biggie, for example, their beef had a fatal ending.
But I've never heard anyone claim that their legacies have
been ruined from beefing or Spike Lee coming for Tyler Perry.
When folks still a retrospective on Spike's career, I don't
think there will be much hand ringing about him beefing
with Medea's creator. The beef filmmakers, poets, musicians, and authors
get into maybe interesting like a footnote in their legacy,
(03:03):
but from what I've witnessed, it doesn't completely ruin the
public's perception of them over time. I'm Katie and I'm Eves,
and I got a question, which one of y'all won't beef?
Speaker 1 (03:20):
So, Hayten and beef In are first cousins, Yes, I'd
say so, So how would you define beef or beef in?
Speaker 2 (03:27):
I define beef as a mutual feud among peers or
near peers. So there's like no way I could be
beefing with Oprah. I could offer some principal critiques which
I have, or I could be hate no, no, but
I can't beef with her. We're just not in the
same stratosphere.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
Okay, So per your definition, it takes two to tango
and they have to be on the same level or
they'reabout right.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
So her bff, Gail King, could be beef with her,
I can't beef with her. And when you look at
the history of black storytelling, you'll find plenty of equally
yoked beef. Because I'm a bookish gal, we'll focus on
beef between writers, specifically Zora Neilhurston and other writers of
the Harlem Renaissance. Part one, Zora Neil Hurston Versus Langston Hughes.
(04:28):
Let's venture back to post World War One America. It
was the dawn of the Jazz Age, and as music, art,
and literature converge. With this great migration, the Harlem Renaissance
is born, an explosion of cultural, social, and intellectual and
artistic expression rooted in the Black experience. Two literary stars
(04:52):
who became synonymous with the Harlem Renaissance are none other
than Zora Neilhurston and Lenggston Hughes and nineteen twenty seven,
the two had a chance encounter outside a mobile Alabama
train station. Zora was in town to interview Kadjo Lewis,
the last living former slave born in Africa. Langston was
in Alabama giving readings and doing some research. The two
(05:13):
decided to go on a tour of the Deep South.
During their road trip, they learned they shared a love
for black folklore, everyday Black Folks, an adventure. In her
nineteen eighty nine essay Turning into Love some thoughts on
surviving and meeting Langston Hughes, Alice Walker says of Zora
and Langston's friendship, it is so easy to see how
and why they would love each other. Each was to
(05:33):
the other an affirming example of what black people could
be like. Wow, crazy, creative, spontaneous, at ease with who
they are, and funny.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Damn. I really don't want their friendship to end now.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
They did maintain a close friendship for many years and
even had the same patron, Charlotte Mason. Patroon basically a
rich white person who supported artists financially, and that's nice
of Charlotte I guess well, Charlotte did give both Zora
and Langston healthy monthly stipends. She was still pretty racist though.
She believed African Americans and Native Americans were quote younger
(06:09):
races unspoiled by white civilization, and that American culture could
be re energized by exposing it to primitive ones.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
That was very paternalistic of her.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Yeah, it turns out Charlotte was central and Dora and
Langston's friendship, and they're falling out. She demanded complete devotion
from the black folks she was sponsoring. She even controlled
Zora's work to the point that Zora wasn't allowed to
show anyone else without Charlotte's permission. That being said, Zora
and Lanston did produce some of their most enduring works
during the time that she was sponsoring them. But here's
(06:41):
where the beef comes in, and it all starts as
a play called mule Bone. Zora and Langston began working
on mule Bone in March nineteen thirty. The play was
based on a folk tale Zor her during one of
her anthropological trips to Florida.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
The pair dedicated the play to Louise.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Thompson, their typist sounds good so far, so by June
the play was almost done. Zora went away for the summer,
took her notes, and promised to return in the fall
so they could finish the play. But when she came back,
she would not return Langston's cause. Zora felt that Langston
wanted to list Louise Thompson The Typist as a third
contributor and was not down with that at all. Some
(07:25):
historians believed Zora was jealous of Langston and Louise's relationship,
but I don't know, I don't know. Also, during this time,
Langston was in the process of severing his relationship with Charlotte.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
Ooh, I knew she was gonna come back in it.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Yeah, Charlotte was controlling Langston too. According to Langston Hughes
biographer Faith Barry, Charlotte chose the books Langston could read,
the music he can listen to, and the plays he
could watch. So when Langston got out of his relationship
with Charlotte, she preyed on his downfall and took Zora's
side in her dispute with Langston. Some historians think Zora
(07:58):
was trying to protect her relationship with Charlotte by shunning
Hughes because while Langston cut himself off from Charlotte's purse strings,
Zora remained close to her till Charlotte died in nineteen
forty six.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
Zora wasn't trying to jeopardize that bag, y'all.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
And wasn't, so she's not communicating with Langston right, And
in October of nineteen thirty she submits mule Bone for copyright,
listing only herself as the author.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
Zora Girl Yes.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
And in January of nineteen thirty one, Langston finds out
that a copy of mule Bone, listing only hersu's name,
was sent to Gilpen Players, an all black theater company
in Cleveland, for their consideration. I know he was mad, big, mad, furious,
I rate, but Zora wasn't the one who sent the
play to Gilpen.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
It was actually Carl van Vechten.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Zora had sent him a copy and he said it
to Gilpen without telling her. During all this kerfuffle, Langston
applied for a copyright under both their names. Gilpin wanted
to stage the play, but it still neededn't work. There
was some back and forth. Zora refused to allow productions
to play. Then she authorized it under the condition that
she could work with Langston on changes. Then she sent
(09:04):
Langston a letter saying he didn't write any of the play.
So with all that drama, Gilpen decided not to go
forward with the play, and Langston Hughes's copy of Meal
Bone in his papers at Yale. He pinned a handwritten
note summarizing it down with him Zora Ammuel Bone. The
notation reads, this play was never done because the authors
fell out.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Dang, so no one ever got to see Meal Bone.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
Oh no, they did.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
It hit the stage for the first time in nineteen
ninety one, over sixty years after it was written. It
was met with mostly negative reviews and the consensus that
if Langston and Zora would have finished the play together
then it would have been much better.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Wow, the beef really impacted the art. That's tragic.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
And while a copyright issue was the center of Zora
and Langston's beef, ideological differences fueled Zora Neil Herstin's and
Richard writes beef and they did not mince words.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
More on that after the Break.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Part two, zor Neil Hurston versus Richard Wright and other
respectable negroes to understand why Zora Neilhurston and Richer Wright
had beef. You have to understand some of the contexts
of the Harlem Renaissance. The Harlem Renaissance was an artistic
flowering of the New Negro movement. Its participants celebrated their
(10:24):
African heritage and embraced self expression, rejecting long standing and
often degrading stereotypes. Richard Wright wrote what you might call
protest novels, works that were overtly political and interested in
sending a capital M message. Richard Wright used his role
as a Harlem Renaissance writer to reveal the humanity of
black people through the strength of arts and letters. And
(10:44):
Zor Neil Hurston was explicitly not on that she wrote
for the sake of writing, rather than for a greater
political good. Some even questioned her standing as a Harlem
Renaissance writer because of her flat refusal to politicize her
early writings. Richard Wright and other writer's acute Zora of
using African American stereotypes in her writing to pander to
white audiences.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
That is an evergreen accusation. I've read some of Zora's work.
What did Richard say about it? Like, what did he
find offensive?
Speaker 2 (11:11):
So the back and forth between them starts after Their
Eyes Were Watching God is published.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
Give a quick synopsis for folks who aren't familiar with
the book.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Sure Their Eyes is written using a Southern dialect. It
tells the story of Janie, who, after childhood hardships and
difficult marriages, finds the love she seeks in a young
blue singer named Teacake. The two live happily until Jane
(11:38):
shoots him after he attacks her. Richard wrote a scathing
review that appeared in The New Masses on October fifth,
nineteen thirty seven.
Speaker 4 (11:48):
In part, he says, miss Herston voluntarily continues in her
novel the tradition which was forced upon the Negro in
the theater, That is the menstrual technique that makes the
white folks laugh. Her characters eat and laugh and cry
and work and kill. They swing like a pendulum eternally
in that safe and narrow orbit in which America likes
(12:09):
to see the Negro live between laughter and tears.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
It was really bold of Richard to say that in
public in that way.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Yeah, I like they was going at each other, But
he didn't step there. He goes on to.
Speaker 4 (12:22):
Say, the sensory sweep of her novel carries no theme,
no message, no thought. In the main, her novel is
not addressed to the Negro but to a white audience
whose chauvinistic tastes she knows how to satisfy. She exploits
that phase of Negro life which is quaint, the phase
which evokes a piteous smile on the lips of the
superior race.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
That's really hard hitting, honestly, and that's a pretty big accusation.
Speaker 3 (12:51):
It was like a very eloquent read.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
Yes, a read I feel like read is putting it
very lightly though, and other black writers agreed with Richard Wright,
including Ralph Ellison, W. E. B.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Du Bois, Alan Locke, and Otis Ferguson. But white audiences
reviewed the book positively, which.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
I'm sure Richard saw as evidence that his take on
it was right.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
Yeah, but not only him. Remember Charlotte Mason, Zora's patron.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Mm hmm, how could I forget? What about her?
Speaker 4 (13:21):
Well?
Speaker 2 (13:22):
As I said, she was really controlling in Racist She
got Zora to sign an agreement that stated that all
the material that Zora wrote would be the legal property
of Charlotte, and Zora could only use it with written permission.
In Yearning Race, Gender, and Cultural Politics, Bell Hooks asserts
that it is difficult to believe that Herston was blind
(13:42):
to the cultural imperialism the white supremacy of her sponsor.
She goes on to argue that because of Charlotte Mason's
financial support of herson, she enforced specific themes and subjects
onto Hurston's work.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
So Charlotte was getting Zora to include the stereotypical depictions
of black folks that Richard White sound offensive.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
That's the thought process.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
But I say, even if it wasn't explicit, Zora knew
that the lady had her views right, and she knew
she needed money, so preemptively added some stuff that she
knew would reinforce Charlotte's worldview.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
Mm hm, that would make sense. What does Zorra have
to say about all of this anything?
Speaker 4 (14:19):
Sure?
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Did?
Speaker 2 (14:20):
She said, I am not interested in the race problem,
but I am interested in the problems of individuals, white
ones and black ones.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
I guess that goes back to what you said about
her writing being apolitical.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
She criticized what she described as quote race pride and
race consciousness, describing it as a thing to be a board,
stating suppose.
Speaker 5 (14:41):
A Negro does something really magnificent and not glory, not
in the benefit to mankind, but in the fact that
the doer was a Negro. Must I not also go
hang my head in shame when a member of my
race does something execrable. The white race did not go
into a laboratory and invent incandescent light. That was edison.
If you are under the impression that every white man
(15:03):
is an Edison, just look around a bit. If you
have the idea that every Negro is a carver, you
have better take off plenty of time to do your searching.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
What do you say about that?
Speaker 1 (15:15):
It's a little bit troubling. In some ways, She's not wrong,
you know what I'm saying, Like, yes, we are all
made differently. We all don't have the same paths in life.
We all don't, you know, have the same roles, and
we do different things. That's true. But I think this
kind of sentiment and response to race pride and race
(15:37):
consciousness in a way ignores the reason behind race pride
and race consciousness, which is that we've been through a
lot of shit. So a little dismissive in ways. But
I'm not gonna say I don't feel where she's coming from,
because you know, we take the ups with the downs.
That's a fair point across the board. I just think
it's a little misplaced in this instance.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
I really interested to see what Zora Neil Hurston thinks
of her like standing in American culture now, because she
is like lumped into all these Harlem Renaissance writers who,
for the most part, were on that race pride stuff,
even though she wasn't. When I first learned about Zora
Neil Heherston in high school, as far as like her
books and stuff, I think their eyes were watching God.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
It wasn't even a sign.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
It was like, you can read these five books, and
like her book was the only black one, so I
read that one, but the teacher wasn't like, oh, zorineel
Hurston was like against race pride, you know what I mean?
And I think like at that time it was pretty
well known that she was kind of like a contrarian
in that regard. But I think as a contrarian you
got to be contrary. You can't agree with these niggas,
(16:43):
even if you kind of do what do you mean?
I think that was her role in the Harlem Renissance
was to be contrary to Richard Wright, to W. E. B.
Du Bois to like say these things like I'm not black,
I'm Zora. You know she said it first. Okay, sorry, Yeah,
I think that's a fair point. And even if it
wasn't the case where she was specifically trying to be contrarian,
(17:03):
it's like she wasn't the only person who was not
trying to be in the race consciousness lane at the time,
Like there were other people who were writing who wanted
to be more focused on like historical fact rather than
writing things that were about uplifting the race, rather than
writing things that were about being.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
Race positive specifically. So she wasn't alone in thinking this way,
because I think Drusilla Dungee Houston was writing at the time,
and she also was on this way where she was
talking about historical thing and the roots of where black
people came from, and she shared kind of similar sentiments.
She was still in the category of racial uplift, but
(17:38):
also in some ways said things that were derogatory a
little bit about other writers in the Harlem Renaissance because
of how much they focused on art as opposed to
educating people about the real black history.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
Basically, Okay, because I know Zora got into it with
w Duvois and you know, this is like a little
bit after the Harlem Renaissance, but saying that the brown
versus Board decision like wasn't good basically, and that you know,
y'all so focused on race, y'all so focused on like
getting close to white people, which is a criticism of
(18:14):
the Civil rights movement and desegregation. And yeah, but I
don't know, I really do think that Bell Hooks is
onto something like having this white woman who is sponsoring
your life, like you wouldn't be able to really like
write these things. And she's racist and you know that, Yeah,
you know, she's racist. She thinks you're primitive, and you know,
(18:37):
be next to you. It's giving get out, like you know,
like you use some of you to reinvigorate herself.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
So I do think that played a part in it.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
And it kind of goes back to our episode the
Black Struggle Industrial Complex, like when you have like this
taste maker in your head kind of like controlling the
art you put out. You're gonna put little goofy things
in there to appease them, you know, Like they're saying
that she used all these stereotypes, and she used the
(19:07):
Southern dialect, which when I read, their eyes were watching God.
I like the Southern dialect. I never read a book
like that before. But I know some people were like,
I literally cannot read this because I can't.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
Catch the flow of the dialogue.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
So I do think Charlotte played a big role in
like what she spoke out against and the art that
she put out. But I mean I could see both sides.
I can see why people were beefing with her, and
I can see why she was like, f ya, I'm
gonna do.
Speaker 3 (19:32):
I'm gonna do.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Me and Charlotte, Yeah, me and my girl.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
Did Sora ever review Richard's work.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Yeah, and she came swinging too. In April of nineteen
thirty eight, she reviewed Uncle Tom's Children, which are novella
set in the Deep South that focus on the lives
of black folks during the post slavery era and their
resistance to white racism and oppression.
Speaker 5 (19:54):
Sora writes, this is a book about hatreds Mister Wright
serves noticed by his title that he speaks of people
in revolt, and his stories are so grim that the
dismal swamp of race hatred must be where they live.
Not one act of understanding and sympathy comes to pass
in the entire work.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
And that was just the first paragraph. Mind you, dang,
did they ever squash the beef? It doesn't appear so
their eyes were watching. God went out of print shortly
after its release in nineteen thirty seven and didn't get
reprinted until nineteen seventy eight. Many believe that happened because
of Zora's refusal to participate in the racial uplift movement
championed by W. E. B. Du Bois, and in nineteen
(20:34):
thirty three essay titled the Negro College du Boys appears
to throw a shot at those of Zora's ilk.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
He writes, why was.
Speaker 4 (20:42):
It that the renaissance of literature which began among negroes
ten years ago has never taken real and lasting route.
It was because it was a transplanted and exotic thing.
It was a literature written for the benefit of white
people and at the behest of white readers, and started
out privately from the white point of view. It never
had a real Negro constituency, and it did not grow
(21:06):
out of the inmost heart and frank experience of Negros.
On such an artificial basis, no real literature can grow.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Zora continued to publish some essays, but ran into money
and health problems and died in nineteen sixty after a
series of strokes. Right moved to Paris in the late
nineteen forties and eventually became a citizen of France. He
published dozens of novels, essays, and other nonfiction works well
into the late nineteen fifties until dying also in nineteen sixty,
due to heart related problems. It's interesting that they both
(21:55):
died in nineteen sixty of heart problems.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
Yeah, I think there were twin flames.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
No, but yeah, so, like I don't know how much
you know about like Dora's life after the hollow and issues,
But she died like penniless and was buried in an
unmarked grave, and Alice Walker had to kind of rediscover
her for the public right, and that's how her book
(22:21):
came back into print. Because she wasn't just beefing with Langston.
And Langston tried to reach out to Zora some more,
and she just would not speak to him anymore. She
wasn't just beefing with like say, she wasn't just beefing
with Richard right, and she was beef wood to boys
like she had all these people who she was just
like opposites of. And I say that her legacy hadn't
(22:42):
been ruined, but for Alice Walker, we.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
Might've just like not known who she is.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
So I don't know, maybe her legacy could have been
for her friend or just like erase maybe is a
better a better way to phrase it, because there were
those decades after she died that people really weren't checking
for her for her work, even being buried on my grave,
you know, just kind of like the disregard for her
as a person, let alone an artist and a writer.
But I do think, like it is fun to see
(23:10):
these reviews coming out, right, I like when the beef
is generative?
Speaker 1 (23:15):
What do you mean by that?
Speaker 3 (23:16):
Give me some art, Give me some.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Art to to showcase the beef.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
You want the distract.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
I want to distract, don't tweet.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
I have something more substantial.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
Yeah, I want to know that you've thought about this,
that you considered the other person's point of view and
you think it's dead wrong and you think they live
in a racist swamp.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
That dismal one girl. So at the time, this was happening.
Zora had her stature. She wasn't. She didn't have that
grade of a stature at that point where she was
beefing with Richard Wright.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
I think it depends on the audience, right, So the
other Harlem Renaissance writers, mostly the men, they didn't like
what she was doing. As I said, the white audiences
loved her book, you know what I'm saying, it loved it.
It was Charlotte's stuff really until she signed it back
to Zora nel Hurston. Such a strange agreement. But so
white audiences liked it, and then the black Harlem Renaissance
(24:11):
men didn't like it because I think they're like more
mission driven, you know, like we're gonna make this work
that is going towards this greater good of people realizing
black people's humanity. And I think we see a lot
of that now. Like I said, there's always the same
conversations go on and on. It's like, oh, are you
writing to better the condition of black people or are
(24:34):
you just creating art? And like sometimes people do get
frustrated with people who are like kind of a racial.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Yeah, but I think in a way, you know, the
racial uplift work you can also argue that work in
that vein is made for white audiences too, because we're
trying to convince them our our humanity. We're not trying to,
for the most part, convince other black people of our humanity.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
I think it's probably fifty to fifty because these people
were very close to slavery, right, so you had a relative,
most likely that you knew had been enslaved. So if
you've been told that you are less than, you're subhuman,
you're not as smart, You're gonna believe that on a
certain level too. So I think the even if the
people weren't like, you know, running out to go read
(25:17):
a du boy's essay, they knew that there was this
important black man who wore a sue and kutacral good
and went to Harvard and taught at Atlanta University.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
So I think it was kind.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
Of twofold, like, hey, black people, you are somebody, and
hey white people were just as good too, type of thing.
And I do think that is kind of like what
we see now, Like when I watch a Blackish, I'm like,
this is for white people, but then it's like, oh,
you see like this black family, now all of them
are mixed for real, that's a different subjects. Family.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
Let's stay on track here.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
On you know ABC.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
They live in a nice house, they got good jobs,
everybody looking nice, hair done, nails done everything, They got
cute clothes, they get along for the most part. It's
like the representation of it all like aspirational, Like you know,
I ain't lively like that. So I think it's showing
like white people that like, oh, white people are human too,
which is like such a low bar. But then also
(26:15):
like black people like, oh, this is what you could have,
this what you could be, this is what your kids
could be.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
So do you know what white audiences said about the
beefs and how they felt about it? Because the thing
that I'm thinking here is how if you're being a
respectable negro, you know, you'll hear a lot of people
say you can't let them see us doing all this,
like all this in fighting, like we need to be unified.
We have all these other problems that are against all
of us together as a race, and we're doing all
of this in fighting. Do you know, because Zora had
(26:41):
a lot of white people in her audience, what they
said about these beefs she was having, was she like
were her audiences like back up, off my girl, or
were they like, oh, look at the blacks, they really
are on civilized.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
That's a good question. I don't know about the general public.
I know, like the people that were in like the
Black People's Business and the Harlem Renaissance, like Charlotte and
carl And I think it was just kind of like
camps and I'm speaking mostly to like her beef with
Lenston Hughes, the white people that she was like in
like direct community with kind of just took her side.
She was more well known than Langston at the time,
you know, he was younger, so they took her side.
(27:13):
I don't know what the general public was saying, but
that is a good question because that is a common sentiment,
like we.
Speaker 3 (27:20):
Doing stuff in front of white people.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
But yeah, it would have been interesting to see like
full blown pieces of art from Zora and Richard coming
out of the beef. One thing about Uncle Tom's children.
It did get kind of like, oh, this is too sentimental,
Like that was like not only Zora Neilhrson was saying that,
And so then he wrote Native Son, which was supposed
to be like his serious work. So he did kind
(27:45):
of respond in that way and kind of changed his approach.
But yeah, I love a generative beef. Like I want
to listen to hit him up and who shatya. I
want to dissect the lyrics, you know what I'm saying.
I want to like get in the booth. I don't
want this yap yap right.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Because it shortens the distance between us and who the
artist was because we seeing them angry, that's the side
of them we might not have seen before.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Yeah, Like you can be angry in the art, but
when you're just being unhinged, it's like you're not being thoughtful,
You're not being an artist, You're just talking your shit,
which you know you're human, so I guess. But I
think it's always worth interesting to like put the beef
in the art, write your thoughts down, whatever your medium is,
if it's paint, paint the beef. This is your PSA
(28:32):
to them people.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
But I think it's cool too because it really is criticism,
you know. Like the quotes were harsh, you know, I
do think that they were harsh, you know, and there
are other black people who care about Zora and WB
du bois to saying these things, and other upstanding people
are saying these things they have right, they have weight,
you know, and I think, you know, you really have
to be considerate about the things you say when you
have rank in the black community. It's like, is it
(28:54):
really do I really need to say this out loud
in public?
Speaker 4 (28:57):
You know?
Speaker 1 (28:58):
What is the service that I'm doing for people? But
at the same time, you know, I care a lot
about arts criticism as an arts critic myself. Like, I
think it is very healthy to have these conversations in public,
and it's nice to see people who were really thinking
about this and who were afraid to share their opinions
on it and not just to be like okay representation,
(29:19):
like okay, like I have something to say about it,
not really feeling it, and I feel like my opinion
has some substance behind it, you know, it's not just
floating on thin air, and I want to say it
because it needs to be sid So I appreciate both
sides of that and that way too, and it's refreshing
and I think healthy to see that kind of criticism,
(29:41):
that kind of back and forth happening between black artists.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Yeah, it definitely gives people like me who like to
be in the archives something to do in like some tea,
some history. But it also shows that hystorical figures were
people with emotions, which I feel like sometimes we forget,
like there are people with emotions. They weren't just these
like great men, great women at all times. You know
they're in relationship with people. And when you're in relationship
(30:06):
with people, you're gonna be beefing, you know. So diving
through the archives, you'll find many examples of your fased beefing.
It's normal.
Speaker 3 (30:14):
You're probably beefing with three people at this very moment.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
Speak for yourself.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
So while it might make us uncomfortable or disappointed to
see it happening in real time with artists today, remember
that beef has this place in storytelling too. Now it's
time for roll credits, the segment where we give credit
to a person, place, or thing that we've encountered.
Speaker 3 (30:39):
During the week eves. Who are what would you like
to give credit to?
Speaker 1 (30:42):
I like to give credit to hiking. I really like hiking.
I like being outside and fresh air. And there have
been some really nice, sunny, crisp cool but not you know,
not two cold days and I've been able to spend
them outside. It gives me lots of time to think.
I find that I've been getting very, very emotional on
hikes lately because they remind me of things that make
(31:04):
me emotional. But I'm appreciative of it. I'm like, Okay,
I was crying the metal yesterday because I like, nobody's here,
so nobody can see me cry. Like this is nice.
Like you know, I think crying can be a very
insular thing too, and it's like often done indoors. So
it's nice to be outside and be like, Okay, look
at all this around me, look at what I'm still
grateful for. So I appreciate the space that literally being
(31:27):
outside the space gives me to like come into my
full being and it's a good time.
Speaker 4 (31:33):
I like that.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
I will give credit to reading books out of order.
I just started doing this and because you know, I'm
on my nonfiction wave right now. And so I was
reading this book and I was trying to read it
cover to cover and I was just like, I'm not
feeling this chapter. So I skipped it and I was like, well,
what chapter will I be lucky? And so I looked
(31:55):
at the table context I was like, this sounds like
an interesting chapter.
Speaker 3 (31:57):
I'm gonna read this.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
And now was it a book of essays?
Speaker 2 (31:59):
No, it was like a historical thing, but it was
kind of going like too deep in the weeds on
some things, and I was like, I do not care,
and I didn't like feel like, oh, because I didn't
know about this treaty, that I am missing out on
knowing something that happened in the nineties. Personally, so I
want to give credit to reading books out of order,
(32:21):
maybe just picking a chapter or two and getting what
you need for the book and not feeling bullied by
reading a bunch of stuff that you don't care about.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
I'm here for you reading as you would like to.
But I must say a response that I would be
very uncomfortable with closing the book and being like I
finished it.
Speaker 3 (32:38):
I would say I finished it. You would just write
some chapters.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
Oh okay, yeah, okay, yeah, you're announcing this too no
to myself. You know, I'm just saying, like, oh, I
finished that book. I have marked that off the list.
If I missed parts of it, it would just be
a personal thing, not anything to like be reconciled with
anybody else. Who's what my patrons and my patrons don't
need to know that I didn't finish the book. Did
(33:02):
you read all of it?
Speaker 3 (33:04):
Did you want to do some research?
Speaker 1 (33:05):
Nigga? But that's all. I like that though, because you know,
you know what you need and what you want when
you want it.
Speaker 3 (33:12):
See y'all next week.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
Bye y'all.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
Hi Ma.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media.
This episode was written by Eves Jeffco and Katie Mitchell.
It was edited and produced by Tari Harrison. Follow us
on Instagram at on Theme Show. You can also send
us an email at hello at on Theme dot Show.
Head to on Theme dot Show to check out the
(33:39):
show notes for episodes. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
The Nikki Glaser Podcast
Every week comedian and infamous roaster Nikki Glaser provides a fun, fast-paced, and brutally honest look into current pop-culture and her own personal life.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.