June 10, 2022 • 32 mins
Ed talks with attorney Ben Crump about his continued fight for equal rights and racial justice. They discuss the recently racial killings in Buffalo, a recent racial profiling stop of college students in Georgia, the ten-year anniversary of the killing of Trayvon Martin and a new documentary on civil rights attorney’s life.
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Speaker 1 (00:22):
Welcome to the latest edition of One Hunter at the
Ed Gordon Podcast. Today a conversation with attorney Ben Crump.
Over the last decade, Trump's name has become synonymous with
the fight for justice, from the infamous killing of Trayvon
Martin to the recent racially motivated killings of black people
in Buffalo, Ben Crump has been on the front lines.
(00:44):
Crump is representing family members of some of the victims
allegedly killed by an eighteen year old white male who
seemed to be driven by hate. We started there and
with the told the fight for justice takes on those
on the lines. This is tragic, and um, I mean,
(01:04):
you just think about senseless loss of life and you
can conclude nothing else that this was senseless, this young, deprived,
uh racist, eighteen year old kid for him to go
out and kill all those innocent people, those innocent black people,
(01:27):
because his objective was to kill as many black people
as he could, and they were so innocent. And that's
what's so tragic about this. So you know, obviously it's
mentally draining. Brother, you and I talked so much, and
but it also invigorates me to fight even harder because
(01:52):
these were people who did not deserve this. Let's let's
go through some of what we know to this point.
Um been about the fight back, the pushback of this.
You know, we've seen this kind of resurgence in terms
of a fight to want to stop uh white supremacy
and the violence that comes from it, but often it
(02:15):
becomes rhetoric. Do you see anything different this time? We
know Joe Biden's empathetic, but is he going to be
able to put any kind of political legislative muscle behind
something to change It remains to be seen, Ed Gordon,
because you know the politicians, especially those are on the
(02:38):
conservative side of the owl. You know, they they put
politics over the people and they don't have the flourish
to say, we gotta do something about these assault weapons.
I mean, this eighteen year old young white kid went
to about a R fifteen. What did the good distributor
(03:01):
think he was gonna do with that good? I mean
everybody that sees these mass shootings over and over again,
so at some point that has to be some accountability,
and it has to be on everybody who was an
accomplice in this mass race shooting. And we always have
to talk about what it is. It's a race, shooting
(03:24):
a race, kill them because this was built on the
ideology of white supremacy, white nationalism. So Ed Gordon, we
cannot just simply a whole accountable this young, sick individual
for his act of hate. But we have to get
to the root of the hate, the people who curate
(03:45):
the hate, the people on social media, these websites, these
cable news posts who are trying to build their ratings
talking about great race replacement theory, you know, these politicians
who are trying to broaden their base as fear monkers.
I mean, it's these people who also have to be
(04:07):
held accountable because it may be true that they did
not pull the trigger, Igord, but they certainly loaded the
good Then I want to make sure that we don't
miss this point though, and I've been very, as you know,
very critical across the board, because you're absolutely right, the
far right has uh, you know, far more to do
(04:28):
with what we see. But we've seen these issues carry
through whether Democrats are in the office, whether Republicans are
in office. We saw an assault weapons band uh some
years back that Joe Biden quite frankly was behind. But
you know that starts to fall to the wayside as
we see this political wrangling between you know, Democrats and Republicans,
(04:48):
I think we all share in um a want and
a need quite frankly, to do something different if we
want a different outcome. I'm talking about liberals and conservatives,
the was of us who see this as wrong, and
those who just can't see it because their eyes are
too close. What would you like to see differently? Well,
you know the biggest thing, Ed Gordon, You want them
(05:11):
to speak directly to the issue. I said in our
first press conference, we need to renew our conversation for
having an anti black hate crime bill. You know we
saw last year and we celebrated it when they did
the anti Asian hate crime bill and it passed with
little or no resistance. Well, we need to speak directly
(05:34):
to that for black people too. Uh. You know it
didn't happen after the uh mass you then that mother
manual down in South Carolina, Charleston, South Carolina when President
Obama was in power. Uh so can we now have
it passed? Not since the Democrats are in power? And uh,
(05:55):
you know we see what the senator from West Virginia,
the Simson for Zona. If they're gonna betray us again
when we got the majority and when we can do
something about it. You know this band on assault weapons
we did see back into clin there when they banned
those assault weapons. It has some effect. So you're right,
(06:20):
if we continue to do the same thing and expect
different results, that's the definition for insanity. And the politicians
apparently either are insane or they are okay. But what's happening.
They see it as collateral damage long as it doesn't
uh jeopardize in any way their political career. You mentioned
(06:43):
cinema and mansion, uh, and they're kind of wobbling, if
you will, between what is traditional democratic thought and what
the Republicans hold true to. We are up against the
mid term bend, and I keep telling people, if which
seems to be conventional wisdom right now, let's hope it changes.
(07:04):
But if we see the traditional change in seats and
the party that holds the White House, they typically lose
seats at mid terms. Um, there's a question of whether
or not we're going to see a huge swing that
is going to be terribly problematic in this fight. Ben,
can you tell people about connecting the dots between keeping
(07:27):
legislators in their seats and what you fight on a
day to day. You know, right now we've seen UH
voter suppression campaign like we've never seen before. They are trying,
I mean literally in my home state of Florida, they're
trying to redraw the districts so they can limit the
(07:50):
number of black congressional members. And that is very impactful
when you think about that. The margins are so limb
in the Senate. If they get one more UH person
in the Senate, then they take the majority. And the
House is about what ten twelve seats. If they pick
(08:14):
up then they take control of the House. And then
if Mitch McConnell is in control, you talk about the
federal judges because you know whether these mass shooters and
whether that's gonna be UH good immunity or there's gonna
be an acception by federal judge to say that you
(08:35):
can hold a good manufacturer, are a good distributor, are
responsible for these mass shootings. Then that comes down to
a federal judge and the Senate. When President Obama was
in powerful eight years, Mitch McConner did everything in his
power to stop President Obama from putting on more liberal
(08:58):
leaning federal judges, more minority judges, more diverse judges, and
we can wholeheartedly expect that's going to be the situation
if they get back in power. I mean, the Supreme
Court just the other day made a ruling that said
you cannot consider emotional distress in the descrimination lawsuit. I mean,
(09:21):
that's what happens when they get control, and that's what
they're trying to do to roll back all the games
we've made during the civil rights era. So it is
a war. It's not even about it. It is a
war for us to be able to protect our constitutional
rights in our community, to have a democrat, a democratic
(09:44):
government that is uh responsive and it looks like our community,
a representative government that says people in our neighborhoods, we
can vote our leaders and it's not jerry mandi to
(10:07):
where they negregate it. So we don't have power. Democrats
make a majority in the state of Florida and many
other states, but because how the lines are drawn, like
in North Carolina, the Republicans got all the power. Let
me ask you this then you mentioned it, and I
think it's so vastly important. You talked about social media
(10:28):
and Fox News in particular and and and other um
social media news outlets. I'll put that in quotes. In
terms of shaping the narrative. I use what you did
so brilliantly this week in terms of shaping UM the narrative.
You kept hammering home the idea of terrorist terrorist terrorists,
(10:52):
uh with this shooting in Buffalo. Too often the news media,
if it has been, in particular a white male committing
these crimes, they walk it away from the narrative of terrorism.
They try to put it on damn near anything else.
Give me a sense of the importance of writing the
narrative to suit what we understand is the truth. You know,
(11:17):
I got a lot of pushback when I said that
this was domestic terrorism, and I don't know anybody who's
speaking truthfully when they try to say this is not
an act of domestic terrorism, they're being disingenuous. When you
call the Oklahoma City Obama domestic terrorism, you call the
(11:40):
shooting and parking in Florida domestic terrorism, you talk about
the columbine and shootings in Aurora. Everything is domestic terrorism.
But when it comes to black people being killed based
on ideology, then that is the very different mission of
(12:01):
domestic terrorism. A citizen in your country shooting and killing
another group of citizens in that same country over ideology.
That is the definition of domestic terrorism. And as the
head of the FBI said, the number one issue to
(12:22):
disturb the peace and tranquility of American society is white
supremacy and these domestic terrorists actions. And so we have
to continue to always, when we get a chance, even
if it's unpopular, speak truth the power, because our communities,
(12:44):
our coaches, our very, our children, everything rest on us
being able to say that our lives are just as valuable.
And no, we just don't see it as crime when
a white boys shoot up a church and shoot up
a grocery store, killing all black people. But yet when
they shoot white people, know it's something more. America, we
(13:06):
have to respond to terrorism. That's what they're saying. Well
in Buffalo, New York, we're saying, this is terrorism. America.
We need to respond to terrorism in this instance because
we know when it's a terrorist at American response in
the most profound way. And that's what we need America
to do. If not, if we don't get to the
(13:28):
root of this hate, I'm sad to say that we
will see more innocent people killed, and we will see
more innocent people and black neighborhoods taken from this earth
(13:49):
far too soon, because they have radicalized young, insecure white
boys on these notions that they will be replaced by
people who they think are not appropriate to be American citizens.
(14:10):
And that's that's the irony of it. We built this
country for free. If we're not entitled to be American
citizens just like them, Well, explain to me what you
did for free for America. Then let me ask you this.
(14:32):
If if his writings are to be believed, it seems
like his parents were in the dark about who he
was and this radicalization. Uh, you know, my first thought
was he must have come from a home that taught
that kind of hate at eighteen. You know, you can
be misguided at a team, most of us are. But
that kind of hate, that visceral, gut hate that we
(14:56):
see in this young boy, you know, you have to
wonder where that came from. But if the writings are
to be believed, he seems to have duped his parents
as well. I don't know if that's true or not.
But what you're thinking of, as you mentioned here, this
radicalization so early on in many young white men in
(15:17):
particular in their lives. You know, I think we all condemned, ohsa,
I'm being a lot and for radicalizing young impressionable minds.
What should we be condemning? These are white nationalist, white
supremacists within the boundaries of our own country. You know,
(15:41):
mainstream media in many ways have made these these racist
theories and beliefs somewhat legitimimate. Uh. You know, we used
to say this was just on the far right fringes,
but now no, you have politicians sprewing out this hate.
(16:05):
You have major cable news personalities who influenced millions of
Americans having an impact on legitimate may in and you know,
making this theory acceptable. And we have god no social
media and the websites that they are allowed to do it.
(16:29):
But we can't try to make excuses and say we
didn't know, because over the course of the last twenty years,
every other month there's been a mass shooting where there's
they're talking to black people, Jewish people, Asian people, Hispanic people.
They all are saying white supremacy, white nationalists, certain people
(16:54):
are less uh appropriate to be in country then we are.
And that's what they continue to say, so, if we
didn't cash the size, it's just because we weren't paying attention.
(17:15):
When we come back, Ben talks about keeping the faith
that things will change, the fight for Henrietta Lacks family,
and being the star of a new documentary. I asked
(17:42):
Ben about what he tells those who are growing tired
of the killings and injustice. What do we tell those
who have normalized the senseless killings and violence and the
continued degradation given to the Black community. And what I
tell them is, but by the grace of God, it
(18:04):
wasn't your loved one, It wasn't your husband, your wife,
your mother, your father, your daughter, your son, Because there,
when it happens to you, isn't going to be normal.
Because what we do know, if we don't do something
radically diffferent, it's gonna happen again. It's gonna happen again.
(18:30):
And so we can't accept this as normal every day
part of society. No, this is offensive and outrageous on
every level, and we have to treat it as such.
I was grateful for President Biden coming to visit Buffalo,
New York, because we need that highest of our leaders
(18:54):
to use their influence to say this is not normal,
then is not acceptable. No matter how many times these radicalized, sick,
depraved individuals do this, we cannot accept that this is
acceptable behavior. We got the rail against it. With everything
(19:16):
we got, we gotta go yeah from the mountaintop that
you can't do this to our neighborhood, in our community.
Let me move to a couple of things that you're
directly involved with, and that's a lawsuit against the biotech
firm uh in in uh in conjunction with the Henrietta
Lacks case. Give us give us an update on that. Yeah,
(19:39):
thank you so much if bringing attention to that, because
here we are the Lacks. As we know. Uh in
nineteen fifty one was butchered by John's Hopkins Hospital where
they were experimenting medical racism on black people, trying to
see if they can uh find somebody who sales can
(20:03):
survive outside of the body and regenerate outside of the body. Well,
here we are the Lacks. You know, this miraculous black woman,
her sales did do exactly that. They are more to
sales over when he made a movie about it, and uh,
you know, for seventy years, her sales keep regenerating and
(20:29):
pharmaceutical companies have made billions upon billions, upround billions of dollars.
I mean, her sales at the cornerstone of modern medicine.
Every advancement that we have known in the last fifty
years have been based on using her genetic materials to
test everything on. And her family hasn't received one red penny.
(20:56):
I mean, it's it's appalling. Her son, her only living
son in Lawrence Slacks, can't even afford quality healthcare as
he struggles with his ability to walk into mania. And
so we had fouled the lawsuit earlier this year, and
I'm sorry last year, and now we had a here
(21:19):
on the emotion to dismiss And one of the things
I articulated to the judge is that the healer sales
did not derive from here out of lacks. The healer
sales are here, real lacks. And this attempt to try
to disassociate the sales from this black woman's body is ingenuous,
(21:44):
and it harkens back to the medical racism that allowed
them to, you know, not treat silphilis and black men
down and Tuskegee, Alabama harkens back to the Mississippi appendet
to me, were black women innocent like Fanny lou Hamer,
(22:05):
that great civiar race Urici went to hospitals in Mississippi
and they were sterilized because the doctors wanted to control
and stop making black babies in Mississippi. Uh. And then
you look at the testing of mustard gas on black
soldiers in the Second World War, because they wanted to
(22:28):
see the effects of what happened, how much uh poisonous
gas the body could stand. And they said, oh, let's
just use those black soldiers. They're irrelevant. They they don't matter.
And you had all these scientists doing all these experiments
on black people. You in Pennsylvania, you had the prisoners
talking about Johnson and Johnson testing them with asbestos. This
(22:51):
was as late as the seventies. And so hopefully, prefully
this Fellerer judge does not smiths this case and finally
let he rether Lacks family have their day in court, because,
as we put forth, the statue of limitations does not
told because he rether Lacks lives. Every time they hersels
(23:16):
regenerate and they sell another one of them, then that
starts the statue of limitations running all over again. So
we got three years from every time they make money
from selling her sales. And I say this because this
problem was the most profound moment in the court room.
(23:36):
I said, Judge, my grandmother taught me to speak truth
to power when you get an opportunity. And you know,
the courts in America are very powerful institution. And you
all keep saying, well, where does it stop caring their grandchildren?
Then bring her claim against pharmaceutical companies and uh ask
(23:57):
for money and compensation. And my response to that was,
you know, justice has no end neither, just like the
ability to make money has no end. And so when
we think about a judge, if hearing the Lacks in
nineteen fifty one would have been treated like human being,
(24:19):
like a a citizen rather than inferior, rather than being
treated like a second class citizen. Let's say she had
been treated like a white woman. Then they would have
had to get consent for her, and then her family
would have the rights to the internecttional properties that were
(24:40):
taken from her body, and they would then have to
compensate them every time they used herselves. And so then
we wouldn't be here in this course where y'all are
saying where we're wrong for asking for je compensation because
as she's been a white woman, nobody would have not
(25:01):
heard the ability to be compensated from what they took
from her body. It's like every four children continue to
make money for what he gets. Find the Bill Gates,
Mary Kay asked, everybody gets the profit from what their
family contributed to the world, except black people. Let me
(25:21):
get a quick update. Been on the alleged racial profiling
stop in Georgia where the Delaware State lacrosse team UH,
their bus was stopped searched UH and it seems as
though the stop was unjustified. I know you were representing
some of the families there. Give us a quick update. Yeah,
(25:42):
we're working with some great lawyers in Georgia as well
as pell Sylvania, UH to look at when and how
we bring a lawsuit against the Georgia State Patrol and
possibly the county sheriff for a racially profile and pretexts
or stops people who they perceived are black, and they're
(26:05):
even worse to put those young black girls through this
violation of their Fourth Amendment rights against a law for
certain seizure have to be dealt with because if we
don't deal with stuff like this, it leads, it leads
to the Joseph uh Loyola, these pretext you stops, leading
(26:30):
to them killing us. And so that's why we have
to fight against these pretestor stops and there's a violation
of our Fourth Amendment rights. Yeah. Lastly, Ben, I wanna
end on on something pleasant. And you know, it's hard
to believe that it's been a decade since America was
introduced to Ben Crump. I mean you. You you came
to prominence with the unfortunate death of Trayvon Martin. Uh,
(26:54):
and you have been running ever since. UM, and I
find it hard to believe in you and I have
known now each other for a decade, uh and have
become friends. But UM, I want to get your sense
of that sense of time for you what it's been.
And I also want to ask you about a documentary
(27:15):
that is coming that's gonna open the African American Film
Festival UM next month, and UH, you know, talk about
what that doc about you, You and your fight for
justice UM has been uh for you. So let's let's
start with the idea of ten years. You know, it's
hard to believe it's been ten years when we celebrate
(27:36):
that the Remembers of the Trade by Martin earlier this year.
It was a stark reminder that man, it's been ten
years and how many has tags? And you know you
and I have become brothers truly. Uh. I cherish your
advice and council. Uh. And I want more conversations and
(27:57):
black Ed Gordon where book coming? Um? But uh, you know, well,
if I struggle, there can be no progress. Uh, to
quote the great Frederick Douglas. And so you know, if
we are struggling, that should not be looked at something negative.
(28:17):
That should be looked at. We are fighting for progress
and that's what I'm trying to do. You know the
documentary Uh. You know, Netflix invested a lot of resources
into the brilliant Naughty and Halgren is the direct that
she directed, uh Becoming with Michelle Obama. Uh. And then
(28:41):
Kenya Barris, the creative of the television show Blackish, is
the executive producer along with Oscar Award winning UH director
Roger Ross Williams. Another great brother. And uh, they followed
me for two years just all of my business said
everywhere I had a camera, but it was you know,
(29:04):
nobody could have predicted the things they were gonna capture.
You know that uh about Opery was gonna be lynched
for Jaguar Black and Bradswick, Georgia. That Briana Taylor was
going to be executed at her own home, uh during
a global pandemic. That George Floyd was gonna be tortured
to death by the Minneapolis police officer putting a knee
(29:25):
on his net. So they capture all of that stuff,
But more importantly, I think they capture how we worked
to make the value of black life matter. That's the
whole overarching theme of the documentary, the value of black
life and black people to society. While we have to
(29:47):
fight in the court of law, in the court of
public opinion to finally get America that knowledge are worth.
Because once I believe they see us and it's valuable,
then they don't continue to treat us as being less
valuable than them. And so we fight over and over again.
(30:10):
I tell they quote me in the interview with teg
comp saying I get up every day and Gordon, I
have never uh unshare what my mission and life is.
Every day I get up. My mission in life is
to be an unapologetic defender of black life, black liberty,
(30:32):
and black humanity. And some people see that as controversial.
Are they too scared to say it? Well, every day
they get up, they are unapologetic defenders of white life,
white liberty, and white humanity. And they tell us it's
their birthright. Where you know what I said, Gordon, due
(30:53):
this documentary, it's our birthright too. Yeah. Well, Ben Crump,
we couldn't have known when we thrust the name of
Trayvon Martin to become a household name. Um, the many
names unfortunately that would follow and would join him in
that dubious list. But the one name we're glad that
(31:13):
has been there through those ten years has been Crump.
And so we appreciate you, Ben for being on the
front line. I appreciate your friendship man, and uh, keep
keep the fight. Brother. Hey, thank you brother. I look
forward to watching the dot which you giving me some
of your valuab bed site like you always do. All right, Ben,
thanks again? All right brother. God bless One is produced
(31:41):
by Ed Gordon Media and distributed by I Heart Media.
Carol Johnson Green and Sharie Weldon are our bookers. Our
editor is Lance Patton. Gerald Albright composed and performed our theme.
Please join me on Twitter and Instagram at ed L
Gordon and on Facebook at ed Gordon. Meat YEA that
(32:09):
erst for that d I found that the game
Welcome to the latest edition of One Hunter at the
Ed Gordon Podcast. Today a conversation with attorney Ben Crump.
Over the last decade, Trump's name has become synonymous with
the fight for justice, from the infamous killing of Trayvon
Martin to the recent racially motivated killings of black people
in Buffalo, Ben Crump has been on the front lines.
(00:44):
Crump is representing family members of some of the victims
allegedly killed by an eighteen year old white male who
seemed to be driven by hate. We started there and
with the told the fight for justice takes on those
on the lines. This is tragic, and um, I mean,
(01:04):
you just think about senseless loss of life and you
can conclude nothing else that this was senseless, this young, deprived,
uh racist, eighteen year old kid for him to go
out and kill all those innocent people, those innocent black people,
(01:27):
because his objective was to kill as many black people
as he could, and they were so innocent. And that's
what's so tragic about this. So you know, obviously it's
mentally draining. Brother, you and I talked so much, and
but it also invigorates me to fight even harder because
(01:52):
these were people who did not deserve this. Let's let's
go through some of what we know to this point.
Um been about the fight back, the pushback of this.
You know, we've seen this kind of resurgence in terms
of a fight to want to stop uh white supremacy
and the violence that comes from it, but often it
(02:15):
becomes rhetoric. Do you see anything different this time? We
know Joe Biden's empathetic, but is he going to be
able to put any kind of political legislative muscle behind
something to change It remains to be seen, Ed Gordon,
because you know the politicians, especially those are on the
(02:38):
conservative side of the owl. You know, they they put
politics over the people and they don't have the flourish
to say, we gotta do something about these assault weapons.
I mean, this eighteen year old young white kid went
to about a R fifteen. What did the good distributor
(03:01):
think he was gonna do with that good? I mean
everybody that sees these mass shootings over and over again,
so at some point that has to be some accountability,
and it has to be on everybody who was an
accomplice in this mass race shooting. And we always have
to talk about what it is. It's a race, shooting
(03:24):
a race, kill them because this was built on the
ideology of white supremacy, white nationalism. So Ed Gordon, we
cannot just simply a whole accountable this young, sick individual
for his act of hate. But we have to get
to the root of the hate, the people who curate
(03:45):
the hate, the people on social media, these websites, these
cable news posts who are trying to build their ratings
talking about great race replacement theory, you know, these politicians
who are trying to broaden their base as fear monkers.
I mean, it's these people who also have to be
(04:07):
held accountable because it may be true that they did
not pull the trigger, Igord, but they certainly loaded the
good Then I want to make sure that we don't
miss this point though, and I've been very, as you know,
very critical across the board, because you're absolutely right, the
far right has uh, you know, far more to do
(04:28):
with what we see. But we've seen these issues carry
through whether Democrats are in the office, whether Republicans are
in office. We saw an assault weapons band uh some
years back that Joe Biden quite frankly was behind. But
you know that starts to fall to the wayside as
we see this political wrangling between you know, Democrats and Republicans,
(04:48):
I think we all share in um a want and
a need quite frankly, to do something different if we
want a different outcome. I'm talking about liberals and conservatives,
the was of us who see this as wrong, and
those who just can't see it because their eyes are
too close. What would you like to see differently? Well,
you know the biggest thing, Ed Gordon, You want them
(05:11):
to speak directly to the issue. I said in our
first press conference, we need to renew our conversation for
having an anti black hate crime bill. You know we
saw last year and we celebrated it when they did
the anti Asian hate crime bill and it passed with
little or no resistance. Well, we need to speak directly
(05:34):
to that for black people too. Uh. You know it
didn't happen after the uh mass you then that mother
manual down in South Carolina, Charleston, South Carolina when President
Obama was in power. Uh so can we now have
it passed? Not since the Democrats are in power? And uh,
(05:55):
you know we see what the senator from West Virginia,
the Simson for Zona. If they're gonna betray us again
when we got the majority and when we can do
something about it. You know this band on assault weapons
we did see back into clin there when they banned
those assault weapons. It has some effect. So you're right,
(06:20):
if we continue to do the same thing and expect
different results, that's the definition for insanity. And the politicians
apparently either are insane or they are okay. But what's happening.
They see it as collateral damage long as it doesn't
uh jeopardize in any way their political career. You mentioned
(06:43):
cinema and mansion, uh, and they're kind of wobbling, if
you will, between what is traditional democratic thought and what
the Republicans hold true to. We are up against the
mid term bend, and I keep telling people, if which
seems to be conventional wisdom right now, let's hope it changes.
(07:04):
But if we see the traditional change in seats and
the party that holds the White House, they typically lose
seats at mid terms. Um, there's a question of whether
or not we're going to see a huge swing that
is going to be terribly problematic in this fight. Ben,
can you tell people about connecting the dots between keeping
(07:27):
legislators in their seats and what you fight on a
day to day. You know, right now we've seen UH
voter suppression campaign like we've never seen before. They are trying,
I mean literally in my home state of Florida, they're
trying to redraw the districts so they can limit the
(07:50):
number of black congressional members. And that is very impactful
when you think about that. The margins are so limb
in the Senate. If they get one more UH person
in the Senate, then they take the majority. And the
House is about what ten twelve seats. If they pick
(08:14):
up then they take control of the House. And then
if Mitch McConnell is in control, you talk about the
federal judges because you know whether these mass shooters and
whether that's gonna be UH good immunity or there's gonna
be an acception by federal judge to say that you
(08:35):
can hold a good manufacturer, are a good distributor, are
responsible for these mass shootings. Then that comes down to
a federal judge and the Senate. When President Obama was
in powerful eight years, Mitch McConner did everything in his
power to stop President Obama from putting on more liberal
(08:58):
leaning federal judges, more minority judges, more diverse judges, and
we can wholeheartedly expect that's going to be the situation
if they get back in power. I mean, the Supreme
Court just the other day made a ruling that said
you cannot consider emotional distress in the descrimination lawsuit. I mean,
(09:21):
that's what happens when they get control, and that's what
they're trying to do to roll back all the games
we've made during the civil rights era. So it is
a war. It's not even about it. It is a
war for us to be able to protect our constitutional
rights in our community, to have a democrat, a democratic
(09:44):
government that is uh responsive and it looks like our community,
a representative government that says people in our neighborhoods, we
can vote our leaders and it's not jerry mandi to
(10:07):
where they negregate it. So we don't have power. Democrats
make a majority in the state of Florida and many
other states, but because how the lines are drawn, like
in North Carolina, the Republicans got all the power. Let
me ask you this then you mentioned it, and I
think it's so vastly important. You talked about social media
(10:28):
and Fox News in particular and and and other um
social media news outlets. I'll put that in quotes. In
terms of shaping the narrative. I use what you did
so brilliantly this week in terms of shaping UM the narrative.
You kept hammering home the idea of terrorist terrorist terrorists,
(10:52):
uh with this shooting in Buffalo. Too often the news media,
if it has been, in particular a white male committing
these crimes, they walk it away from the narrative of terrorism.
They try to put it on damn near anything else.
Give me a sense of the importance of writing the
narrative to suit what we understand is the truth. You know,
(11:17):
I got a lot of pushback when I said that
this was domestic terrorism, and I don't know anybody who's
speaking truthfully when they try to say this is not
an act of domestic terrorism, they're being disingenuous. When you
call the Oklahoma City Obama domestic terrorism, you call the
(11:40):
shooting and parking in Florida domestic terrorism, you talk about
the columbine and shootings in Aurora. Everything is domestic terrorism.
But when it comes to black people being killed based
on ideology, then that is the very different mission of
(12:01):
domestic terrorism. A citizen in your country shooting and killing
another group of citizens in that same country over ideology.
That is the definition of domestic terrorism. And as the
head of the FBI said, the number one issue to
(12:22):
disturb the peace and tranquility of American society is white
supremacy and these domestic terrorists actions. And so we have
to continue to always, when we get a chance, even
if it's unpopular, speak truth the power, because our communities,
(12:44):
our coaches, our very, our children, everything rest on us
being able to say that our lives are just as valuable.
And no, we just don't see it as crime when
a white boys shoot up a church and shoot up
a grocery store, killing all black people. But yet when
they shoot white people, know it's something more. America, we
(13:06):
have to respond to terrorism. That's what they're saying. Well
in Buffalo, New York, we're saying, this is terrorism. America.
We need to respond to terrorism in this instance because
we know when it's a terrorist at American response in
the most profound way. And that's what we need America
to do. If not, if we don't get to the
(13:28):
root of this hate, I'm sad to say that we
will see more innocent people killed, and we will see
more innocent people and black neighborhoods taken from this earth
(13:49):
far too soon, because they have radicalized young, insecure white
boys on these notions that they will be replaced by
people who they think are not appropriate to be American citizens.
(14:10):
And that's that's the irony of it. We built this
country for free. If we're not entitled to be American
citizens just like them, Well, explain to me what you
did for free for America. Then let me ask you this.
(14:32):
If if his writings are to be believed, it seems
like his parents were in the dark about who he
was and this radicalization. Uh, you know, my first thought
was he must have come from a home that taught
that kind of hate at eighteen. You know, you can
be misguided at a team, most of us are. But
that kind of hate, that visceral, gut hate that we
(14:56):
see in this young boy, you know, you have to
wonder where that came from. But if the writings are
to be believed, he seems to have duped his parents
as well. I don't know if that's true or not.
But what you're thinking of, as you mentioned here, this
radicalization so early on in many young white men in
(15:17):
particular in their lives. You know, I think we all condemned, ohsa,
I'm being a lot and for radicalizing young impressionable minds.
What should we be condemning? These are white nationalist, white
supremacists within the boundaries of our own country. You know,
(15:41):
mainstream media in many ways have made these these racist
theories and beliefs somewhat legitimimate. Uh. You know, we used
to say this was just on the far right fringes,
but now no, you have politicians sprewing out this hate.
(16:05):
You have major cable news personalities who influenced millions of
Americans having an impact on legitimate may in and you know,
making this theory acceptable. And we have god no social
media and the websites that they are allowed to do it.
(16:29):
But we can't try to make excuses and say we
didn't know, because over the course of the last twenty years,
every other month there's been a mass shooting where there's
they're talking to black people, Jewish people, Asian people, Hispanic people.
They all are saying white supremacy, white nationalists, certain people
(16:54):
are less uh appropriate to be in country then we are.
And that's what they continue to say, so, if we
didn't cash the size, it's just because we weren't paying attention.
(17:15):
When we come back, Ben talks about keeping the faith
that things will change, the fight for Henrietta Lacks family,
and being the star of a new documentary. I asked
(17:42):
Ben about what he tells those who are growing tired
of the killings and injustice. What do we tell those
who have normalized the senseless killings and violence and the
continued degradation given to the Black community. And what I
tell them is, but by the grace of God, it
(18:04):
wasn't your loved one, It wasn't your husband, your wife,
your mother, your father, your daughter, your son, Because there,
when it happens to you, isn't going to be normal.
Because what we do know, if we don't do something
radically diffferent, it's gonna happen again. It's gonna happen again.
(18:30):
And so we can't accept this as normal every day
part of society. No, this is offensive and outrageous on
every level, and we have to treat it as such.
I was grateful for President Biden coming to visit Buffalo,
New York, because we need that highest of our leaders
(18:54):
to use their influence to say this is not normal,
then is not acceptable. No matter how many times these radicalized, sick,
depraved individuals do this, we cannot accept that this is
acceptable behavior. We got the rail against it. With everything
(19:16):
we got, we gotta go yeah from the mountaintop that
you can't do this to our neighborhood, in our community.
Let me move to a couple of things that you're
directly involved with, and that's a lawsuit against the biotech
firm uh in in uh in conjunction with the Henrietta
Lacks case. Give us give us an update on that. Yeah,
(19:39):
thank you so much if bringing attention to that, because
here we are the Lacks. As we know. Uh in
nineteen fifty one was butchered by John's Hopkins Hospital where
they were experimenting medical racism on black people, trying to
see if they can uh find somebody who sales can
(20:03):
survive outside of the body and regenerate outside of the body. Well,
here we are the Lacks. You know, this miraculous black woman,
her sales did do exactly that. They are more to
sales over when he made a movie about it, and uh,
you know, for seventy years, her sales keep regenerating and
(20:29):
pharmaceutical companies have made billions upon billions, upround billions of dollars.
I mean, her sales at the cornerstone of modern medicine.
Every advancement that we have known in the last fifty
years have been based on using her genetic materials to
test everything on. And her family hasn't received one red penny.
(20:56):
I mean, it's it's appalling. Her son, her only living
son in Lawrence Slacks, can't even afford quality healthcare as
he struggles with his ability to walk into mania. And
so we had fouled the lawsuit earlier this year, and
I'm sorry last year, and now we had a here
(21:19):
on the emotion to dismiss And one of the things
I articulated to the judge is that the healer sales
did not derive from here out of lacks. The healer
sales are here, real lacks. And this attempt to try
to disassociate the sales from this black woman's body is ingenuous,
(21:44):
and it harkens back to the medical racism that allowed
them to, you know, not treat silphilis and black men
down and Tuskegee, Alabama harkens back to the Mississippi appendet
to me, were black women innocent like Fanny lou Hamer,
(22:05):
that great civiar race Urici went to hospitals in Mississippi
and they were sterilized because the doctors wanted to control
and stop making black babies in Mississippi. Uh. And then
you look at the testing of mustard gas on black
soldiers in the Second World War, because they wanted to
(22:28):
see the effects of what happened, how much uh poisonous
gas the body could stand. And they said, oh, let's
just use those black soldiers. They're irrelevant. They they don't matter.
And you had all these scientists doing all these experiments
on black people. You in Pennsylvania, you had the prisoners
talking about Johnson and Johnson testing them with asbestos. This
(22:51):
was as late as the seventies. And so hopefully, prefully
this Fellerer judge does not smiths this case and finally
let he rether Lacks family have their day in court, because,
as we put forth, the statue of limitations does not
told because he rether Lacks lives. Every time they hersels
(23:16):
regenerate and they sell another one of them, then that
starts the statue of limitations running all over again. So
we got three years from every time they make money
from selling her sales. And I say this because this
problem was the most profound moment in the court room.
(23:36):
I said, Judge, my grandmother taught me to speak truth
to power when you get an opportunity. And you know,
the courts in America are very powerful institution. And you
all keep saying, well, where does it stop caring their grandchildren?
Then bring her claim against pharmaceutical companies and uh ask
(23:57):
for money and compensation. And my response to that was,
you know, justice has no end neither, just like the
ability to make money has no end. And so when
we think about a judge, if hearing the Lacks in
nineteen fifty one would have been treated like human being,
(24:19):
like a a citizen rather than inferior, rather than being
treated like a second class citizen. Let's say she had
been treated like a white woman. Then they would have
had to get consent for her, and then her family
would have the rights to the internecttional properties that were
(24:40):
taken from her body, and they would then have to
compensate them every time they used herselves. And so then
we wouldn't be here in this course where y'all are
saying where we're wrong for asking for je compensation because
as she's been a white woman, nobody would have not
(25:01):
heard the ability to be compensated from what they took
from her body. It's like every four children continue to
make money for what he gets. Find the Bill Gates,
Mary Kay asked, everybody gets the profit from what their
family contributed to the world, except black people. Let me
(25:21):
get a quick update. Been on the alleged racial profiling
stop in Georgia where the Delaware State lacrosse team UH,
their bus was stopped searched UH and it seems as
though the stop was unjustified. I know you were representing
some of the families there. Give us a quick update. Yeah,
(25:42):
we're working with some great lawyers in Georgia as well
as pell Sylvania, UH to look at when and how
we bring a lawsuit against the Georgia State Patrol and
possibly the county sheriff for a racially profile and pretexts
or stops people who they perceived are black, and they're
(26:05):
even worse to put those young black girls through this
violation of their Fourth Amendment rights against a law for
certain seizure have to be dealt with because if we
don't deal with stuff like this, it leads, it leads
to the Joseph uh Loyola, these pretext you stops, leading
(26:30):
to them killing us. And so that's why we have
to fight against these pretestor stops and there's a violation
of our Fourth Amendment rights. Yeah. Lastly, Ben, I wanna
end on on something pleasant. And you know, it's hard
to believe that it's been a decade since America was
introduced to Ben Crump. I mean you. You you came
to prominence with the unfortunate death of Trayvon Martin. Uh,
(26:54):
and you have been running ever since. UM, and I
find it hard to believe in you and I have
known now each other for a decade, uh and have
become friends. But UM, I want to get your sense
of that sense of time for you what it's been.
And I also want to ask you about a documentary
(27:15):
that is coming that's gonna open the African American Film
Festival UM next month, and UH, you know, talk about
what that doc about you, You and your fight for
justice UM has been uh for you. So let's let's
start with the idea of ten years. You know, it's
hard to believe it's been ten years when we celebrate
(27:36):
that the Remembers of the Trade by Martin earlier this year.
It was a stark reminder that man, it's been ten
years and how many has tags? And you know you
and I have become brothers truly. Uh. I cherish your
advice and council. Uh. And I want more conversations and
(27:57):
black Ed Gordon where book coming? Um? But uh, you know, well,
if I struggle, there can be no progress. Uh, to
quote the great Frederick Douglas. And so you know, if
we are struggling, that should not be looked at something negative.
(28:17):
That should be looked at. We are fighting for progress
and that's what I'm trying to do. You know the
documentary Uh. You know, Netflix invested a lot of resources
into the brilliant Naughty and Halgren is the direct that
she directed, uh Becoming with Michelle Obama. Uh. And then
(28:41):
Kenya Barris, the creative of the television show Blackish, is
the executive producer along with Oscar Award winning UH director
Roger Ross Williams. Another great brother. And uh, they followed
me for two years just all of my business said
everywhere I had a camera, but it was you know,
(29:04):
nobody could have predicted the things they were gonna capture.
You know that uh about Opery was gonna be lynched
for Jaguar Black and Bradswick, Georgia. That Briana Taylor was
going to be executed at her own home, uh during
a global pandemic. That George Floyd was gonna be tortured
to death by the Minneapolis police officer putting a knee
(29:25):
on his net. So they capture all of that stuff,
But more importantly, I think they capture how we worked
to make the value of black life matter. That's the
whole overarching theme of the documentary, the value of black
life and black people to society. While we have to
(29:47):
fight in the court of law, in the court of
public opinion to finally get America that knowledge are worth.
Because once I believe they see us and it's valuable,
then they don't continue to treat us as being less
valuable than them. And so we fight over and over again.
(30:10):
I tell they quote me in the interview with teg
comp saying I get up every day and Gordon, I
have never uh unshare what my mission and life is.
Every day I get up. My mission in life is
to be an unapologetic defender of black life, black liberty,
(30:32):
and black humanity. And some people see that as controversial.
Are they too scared to say it? Well, every day
they get up, they are unapologetic defenders of white life,
white liberty, and white humanity. And they tell us it's
their birthright. Where you know what I said, Gordon, due
(30:53):
this documentary, it's our birthright too. Yeah. Well, Ben Crump,
we couldn't have known when we thrust the name of
Trayvon Martin to become a household name. Um, the many
names unfortunately that would follow and would join him in
that dubious list. But the one name we're glad that
(31:13):
has been there through those ten years has been Crump.
And so we appreciate you, Ben for being on the
front line. I appreciate your friendship man, and uh, keep
keep the fight. Brother. Hey, thank you brother. I look
forward to watching the dot which you giving me some
of your valuab bed site like you always do. All right, Ben,
thanks again? All right brother. God bless One is produced
(31:41):
by Ed Gordon Media and distributed by I Heart Media.
Carol Johnson Green and Sharie Weldon are our bookers. Our
editor is Lance Patton. Gerald Albright composed and performed our theme.
Please join me on Twitter and Instagram at ed L
Gordon and on Facebook at ed Gordon. Meat YEA that
(32:09):
erst for that d I found that the game
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