May 19, 2023 • 31 mins
Ed talks with singer/songwriter, Valerie Simpson about her hall of fame songwriting career with late husband Nick Ashford and their stellar career as artists. They also talk about how Ashford and Simpson’s music became the sound track for generations of music lovers. They also discuss what it was like working with iconic singers including: Marvin Gaye, Diana Ross and Gladys Knight.
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Speaker 1 (00:21):
Welcome to the latest edition of one hundred The Ed
Gordon Podcast Today a conversation with singer songwriter Valerie Simpson. Simpson,
along with her writing partner and husband Nick Ashford, became
one of the great songwriting teams of the twentieth century.
They started finding success in the mid sixties with songs
(00:41):
for artists including Aretha Franklin and The Fifth Dimension. In
nineteen sixty six, their first big hit was Let's Get
Stoned by the legendary Ray Charles. That song brought them
to the attention of Motown founder Barry Gordy, who brought
them to the company, where they began to craft songs
(01:02):
for Marvin Gay and Tammy Terrell and Diana Ross. The
duo's years at Motown began a string of hits that
would bring classics. Ain't nothing like the real thing, reach
out and touch Somebody's hands, You're all I need to
get by, and many more, and the hits continued into
the next decades. I'm every Woman for Shaka Khan, Teddy
(01:23):
Pendergrass and is It Still Good to You? And Landlord
for Gladys Knight in the Pits, just to name a few.
They would later add songs they recorded to that list,
including Solid, Found a Cure and It Seems to Hang On.
The husband and wife team continued creating music until Nick's
(01:44):
death in twenty eleven. Over their career, they received countless
awards and accolades, including their induction to the Songwriter's Hall
of Fame in twenty four. Next month, the native New
Yorker will receive the key to the city. That's where
we started our conversation. I wondered how she felt about
(02:06):
getting the key.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Well, you know, wars are not my thing, but my
daughters felt something so much about this till I had
to look at it again through their eyes, you know,
and realize that I am a native New Yorker too.
You know, I was born in New York. So it
is a nice thing to be considered and to get it.
(02:28):
So I'm not quite sure what this key is going
to open.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
But hey, let me ask you, when you when you
think about all the accolades that have been bestowed upon
you and obviously Nick over the years.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
You know now that I've gotten old and gray, and
people come to you and talk to you about what
your career has meant to them. When you're in it,
you don't always see it because you're in the middle
of it. You're you're in it. When when time allows
you to look back, and I know, people come to
you and talk out the soundtrack of their lives and
all of those things, what's that mean for you to you?
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Well, you know, it's so much more meaningful now than
they were years ago when we were writing the songs,
because I didn't know we were having that kind of
an effect on people or their lives. And I actually,
after being you know, put down like everybody else for
the last two three years, you really start to realize
(03:25):
that you do need songs with meaning that'll touch you
to get you through certain things. And so songs mean
more to me now than they used to. So I'm
really thrilled that I'm a part of that. When people
come up and say, yes, you affected me, Yes I
changed my plans.
Speaker 4 (03:42):
Because of this song. You know, Yes, it's nice. You
know what a lot of people don't know because Ashford
and Simpson is so seminal and in people's minds, seared
in people's minds as a duet not only as performers
but songwriters. But you guys started out as a trio
in writing right.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Initially it was three of us, Jossy, Joe Armstead and myself,
and actually she and I wrote some songs together without Nick,
and then we wrote some songs with Nick, and then
she went on and did some other really great things
in Chicago.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
What was it like to hear that first hit? You know,
everybody talks about Let's Get Stoned, and you all, I think,
you know, don't get the credit for things like California
sold that, the Fifth Dimension did and down the line.
But when you heard Let's Get Stoned, you know, on
the radio, and then saw it climb the charts and
it's Ray Charles, what was that feeling like for you?
Speaker 2 (04:41):
It was a real wow. You know, our initial writing
experience really wasn't We didn't know what a writer gets,
and we didn't realize that there was that kind of
money to come. We were doing something we loved to do,
and we were doing it for the advance that we
would get, not even knowing you know that if it
(05:02):
goes to be a hit, that all of that is
going to happen. So it was really thrilling. I mean,
I think we probably went into like a silent mode
for a couple of months because we were like what
you know, and it's going up the chart. You know,
we're standing outside the bars listening. That's crazy.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
Well, what's it like for you when you when you
think about just the array of songs that you all
have written, you know, you do fall into that that
pantheon of gambling huff you know, Holland Dozer, Holland. I
think about you know, jam and Lewis and Babyface for
more contemporary you know songs and the like. What what's
(05:45):
it like again now to sit back and think about
you know, you again inducted in the Rock and Roll
Hall of Fame. But songs are the thing that stay
with us. You know TV shows you that, but songs
thirty forty fifty years. You know my mom and she
had dementia at the end of her life. The thing
she remembered she could she could sing Rainy Knight in
(06:08):
Georgia like she was singing with Brooke Benton, but couldn't
where we were going a hundred times. You know. Yeah,
talk to me about about what giving the world those
songs has meant to you?
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Well, you know it means that I realize now because
the songs continue to live and have a life of
their own, that they will be here long after I'm gone,
you know. And you know Nick's been gone eleven years now,
so you know, when I hear them and I realize
how important they are and how how they still radiate
(06:43):
and generationally, you know, we're kids, like five years old,
was six years old? No, ain't no mountain high enough,
you know. I'm like, you know, I didn't expect all
of that to happen, you know, so it's really quite rewarding.
And it made me appreciate songwriting and give it more
esteem than I did when we were doing it. You know,
(07:06):
I realized that people really do need something to get
them going and to make them get up and go,
you know, and that's what the song will do for
you if it's the right song.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
You know, some years ago, and I love music. I
can't sing a lit, can't play or instrument that, but
I love music. You know. I'm the liner person can
tell you all of those things. But it wasn't until
a few years back that I knew you guys had
done Shoeshoe Shine by the Dynamic Superiors. You know, do
you often think about those early days, you know, when
(07:43):
you weren't quite sure whether this was going to be
a two year gig or a lifetime gig. What was that?
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Well, nobody in my family, you know, had come through music,
and nobody in Knicks family, so we were always unsure
about what the next move. And just imagine when you're
waiting for a phone, careing and somebody to give you
an opportunity to write a song. It's so ridiculous and
rare you know that these things happen, or that they
(08:12):
even find you. So, you know, it was always a
big surprise. And I think if we had thought about
the logistics of it and how unlikely it would be
that we could beat a success, we probably would have
found other careers. But we really enjoyed it, you know.
I loved it. You know, it's a funny thing. I
(08:33):
was initially even with Jossy. Back then, I was making
a lot of money doing jingles, and then Nick came
to me and said, you know, you're not available to
write seemingly anymore. Got to make up your mind. What
is it that you really want to do? He said,
you know, we got a chance here, you know, And
(08:53):
so I put the jingles down because I loved what
I was doing, you know, with him so even though
was making major six figure money, I knew it wasn't
what I wanted in my life. I couldn't remember them
when I got home.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
You know, let me ask you now that you think
about all of the people that you've worked with too,
you know, from your years at Motown and just the
people that have taken your songs. You know, sometimes it
is those are the fondest memories often, you know, the
(09:29):
people that you look back and came into your lives
because of that. Was there someone who was a favorite
to work with, and not necessarily by their talent, but
just the vibe you all had in the studio With
one given artist, I would.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Say Marvin Marvin Gaye. He was just so generous, and
you know, because he was singing with women, he had
a way of making them better and opening hisself up
to them. And and he really inspired us as producers
because we would be watching him and forgetting that we
(10:06):
were producing the record. Because he would let itself get
so into it, I mean physically into it. He would
do more in the studio than he would do on
the stage to make it happen, to make it come alive,
to give you what you needed, and it was thrilling.
He was really a thrilling artist to record, and he
inspired me a lot.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
What was it? You know? I recall so many people
would compare Barry Gordy to Bob Johnson when they talked
about be et and Motown, and I said, the one
difference was that Barry Gordy was a practitioner of songs.
He wrote songs. Bob was a businessman. And so sometimes
there's a difference that you can't really understand fully what
(10:51):
an artist needs if you haven't been there. I'm wondering
how much producing and writing helped you as an artist.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
Well, for sure having that come first in our lives.
You know, we started out actually as singers, Valerie and Nick,
and that didn't work. We knew we'd never make it
that way, and so the writing became the important thing.
And then when we asked to be producers, we asked
Barry because we thought we were, you know, handing in
(11:21):
really good demos and we knew we were ready to
do it. And that is the foundation of everything. You know,
when you do the production, you get the track the
way you wanted, then you just lay that vocal on
it to put the icing on the cake. So to speak.
And it really meant a lot that we had that
(11:42):
foundation of as producers.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
If you had to pick one artist, songwriter, producer that
you would say I'm going to lay my hat on first,
which would it be? Definitely a songwriter?
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Yeah, I didn't even sing it consider the singing thing
a real thing, you know. I saw Quincy in February.
I went, I was in California, and I got to
go by his house and hang out with him for
a while. And I hadn't seen him in such a
long time, and I got a chance to really tell
him not only that I loved him, but just the
(12:19):
fact that he was the first person that recognized that
I had a voice. I step out as a soloist,
you know, and I was shocked then, and he really
gave me confidence and hard songs and showed me who
I was. You know, sometimes somebody else has to see
it in you for you to even realize that you
got it.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
What was it in terms of having Nick with you
as a singer and then doing solo stuff? Silly, wasn't
I was early on for you a big hit, but
that's you by yourself. And then obviously the majority of
what you did as an artist, was was with your husband?
What's the difference in a duet and having somebody there
(13:02):
with you versus doing it solo? Beyond the obvious.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
I thought of myself as a vehicle to get certain
songs out that we had nobody to record them on,
and so we would produce them on me. And so
that's that's that Valerie Simpson over there. You know, I
think that if I had had major, major success as
a solo singer, I think my head would have got
(13:30):
swolled up and really and truly, you know, because the
business does things to you, you know, and I think
our careers as a you know, as a partnership would
not have been the same.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
What was it for you at Motown? It's always a
mixed bag. Again, I think about my years at BT.
There was some fantastic, wonderful things that BT gave those
of us who worked there, and there was some things
we were like, I don't know, what what was it
like for you? Because you know, artists have and continue
(14:05):
to have an affinity for mister Gordon and for Motown,
but sometimes, you know, working in a place can be difficult.
What was it for you?
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Well, it was more like college to me because he
put us right on top of each other, so you
were always second guessing yourself because what you were hearing
was so good, you know. And then I don't even
know of another record company that would have quality control
where your teams had to you know, go through a
meeting and be judged, you know, and critiqued, you know.
(14:38):
But it all made us stronger, you know. And so
I just learned a lot and we were really just
vibing on each other, you know. And I think he
did it, you know, kept the competition going and it
worked for us.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
Yeah, I mean he you know, I had the pleasure
of getting to know him over the years, and his
favorite stories are that he wanted to be a competition.
He wanted, you know, the attempts to hear the tops,
and the tops made it to, you know, to number one.
And he's telling the attempts of how they got your beat,
so you know, there is but it was a friendly
competition to a great degree.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
But you know what else he did though, he saw
something that we didn't see. He saw the life of
the song that we did not see. He knew that
if he had other artists, if it was a really
good song, if he made somebody else record it as well.
He was putting it online to last a lot longer
than three or four months. He was trying to make standards.
And we didn't even understand that we were in the
(15:35):
midst of doing something like that, you know, which is
why you went to ASCAP, Because they had those writers,
you know, you know, the Gershwins and this and the
that that were doing Broadway things. He was seeing much
further than we were, and you know, I admire that,
you know, and that's probably why you know, these songs
have lasted.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
All right, I'm going to ask you three things about
songs that are always difficult. I don't ask artist anymore,
what's your favorite song? But I found ways around it
if you will. What song are you most asked about
that you wrote?
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Probably Ain't a Mountain?
Speaker 1 (16:12):
What do you think it was about that that resonated?
Speaker 2 (16:15):
Well, you know, it's interesting, you know, because it means
something to people. You know. It was really born out
of a truth, you know, with Nick looking at the
buildings and saying that they look like mountains, you know,
and you know, and New York wasn't going to take
him under, you know, that was his you know, that
was his thought when he looked at it, and that's
(16:37):
what we wrote. Even though we wrote it as a
love song, I think people internally feel what he was feeling,
that he ain't a mountain high enough, you know, to
keep me from my dream, you know, or what it
is I need to accomplish. And I think that's why
it's a much stronger song. If we had written it
that way. I don't know if it would have, you know,
(16:58):
been the same, but the integral part of the song,
so people get it and they feel it.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
If if there were a song you'd pick, and maybe
that's it. But if there were a song you'd pick
to put in a time capsule that they dig up,
you know, twenty five years, fifty years, one hundred years
from now to illustrate an ash Ford and Simpson song,
what would that be?
Speaker 2 (17:23):
H Well, I'm very fond of your all I need
to get by. It just does something from my heart,
So that might be one.
Speaker 5 (17:33):
Yeah, when you became an artist in the sense of
you and Nick started having the hits that you had,
and people were looking at you because you were known
by then as songwriters and producers, even by fans, you know.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
But when you all started to really get on that
role and have the kind of list that major artists
have hits. Wise, now you know you can stand in
the room of a lot of folks and tick off
your hits. Was that surprising to you?
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Oh yeah, oh yeah, it was thrilling, you know. And
what saved us too, is that we got to learn
on the job because we started out as artists and
we weren't that good, you know, but we had that foundation,
that songwriting, so that when we went into that day,
you know, the audience would say, oh they you know,
(18:25):
they did that, you know, so it gave us something
to fall back on, and so they appreciated us a
lot more. I mean Nick used to sweat with the
towels under his arm. We've been nervous. We didn't you know,
we didn't have it together. But we were allowed to
learn on the job. And I love that.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
When did you find it? When did you know that?
When you hit the stage finally, and you know what,
we got it together and you can leave one of
those towels back, you know, behind stage. When did you
know you were there?
Speaker 2 (18:57):
I don't exactly know, but there is something about the
love that an audience gives you. That makes it possible
for you to, oh, supersede what you thought you was
gonna do and do even more because they love you
so much, you know, or if they the more appreciation
(19:20):
they showed us, the better we became right on the spot.
And I love that about performing that sometimes they make
you do stuff you didn't know you were capable of.
You know, you reach out even further and it's a thrill.
I mean it's an instant thrill.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
You know.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Songwriter, you gotta wait months and months and months and
see if the song is going to even do anything,
but the thrill of an audience loving you they can
make it better.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
Is there a song I've asked many artists songwriters this,
you know, do you know if you've written a hit
right then and there? And most, I honestly would say, no,
you don't. There's some that you really believe, yeah we
got it and it's correct, and there are a couple
that you thought, yeah we got it and it didn't
go anywhere. Do you have a song that you even
(20:13):
if it's an album cut, it wasn't released to be
a hit or not. Do you have a song that
most people may not readily know that you love that
you all have written.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Give Me Something Real, which was on our first album.
I really always loved it. It was it had talking,
you know, I talked about my feelings and he talked
about his, and then we get to the punch give
Me Something Real. And then a woman told me that
she was about to get married and after she listened
(20:45):
to that song, she realized that she was marrying for
all the wrong reason and it wasn't the right man,
you know, and so she said, she, you know, just
didn't do it. And so I said, well, that's pretty powerful. Yeah,
So you know those kinds of things, you know, like
I said, if you can change a person's destiny, I
(21:06):
think it's very you know, it's much more than I
thought a song would do.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
We also talked about another career success, the Sugar Bar.
In nineteen ninety six, they opened the restaurant and live
entertainment venue that continues to be a popular spot today.
You know, favorite haunts of people, restaurants and bars and
the like. Really like a song become really near and
(21:32):
dear to them. You know, you have people who will
come every night or will save special occasions to be
in that place. What's that been for you.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
You know, I did not want to have a club.
That's all Nick's dream, you know, because we had a
place before called twenty twenty and that was big, costs
a lot and just drove us crazy. But he still
was in love with the idea of the club thing.
And because we had the building and it was open
on the bottom, he said I'm going to do it again.
(22:03):
I was like, oh Lord, here we go. And sure
enough it was hard, but I wasn't in it. He
did all the decorating, and I'm glad because that we
weren't joined at the hip. So you should, you know,
realize your dream if this is what you want. And
then I ended up spending more time in there than
him because it really was fun and it really was
great to see young artists have give them that little platform.
(22:25):
We'd had artists go from that stage to the Broadway stage,
you know, or to a big gig because somebody's in
the audience watching them. You just don't know, you know,
what what you're doing for somebody if they're great, And
so the place has been very rewarding, and I've seen
so many of them do so well that it's pretty thrilling,
(22:46):
you know, it's a way of giving back.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
I'm just gonna throw a couple of names out. I
had some fun with Gambling, Huff and jam and Lewis
with this. I asked them about particular artists and they
talked about them recording and being in the studio, what
they were like. So let me just, you know, throw
out a couple of names for you that you worked with.
What was it for Gladys Knight and the Pips for
you because you did Landlord and Bushy Bushy taste a
(23:10):
bit of love with them? What was it? Because Gladys
is such a i mean such an icon.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
She really is. You know. The nice part about working
with them was we had a house up in Connecticut
and they came up and spent time there, the whole group,
and so we had fun. So it was very much
like family. And then they were so supportive of her.
People don't realize how they helped you with her ad
(23:37):
libs and just you need a raw, raw section, you know.
May Andrew used to tell me, she said, if the
person in the room when you're working out, trying to
do something, if they're not giving you energy, then they
need to leave the room. Well, those Pips gave her
energy and it was fun working with all of them
and those albums. It was more like a family affair
(24:02):
really for us, hanging with her.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
And then you mentioned Marvin and let me ask you this.
Let me see if I can get some of the
urban legend about whether or not you did some vocals
for he and Tammy Terrell and those records. For years,
there was rumor that some of the vocals on certain
Marvin Gaye Tammy Terrell songs off their third album were
(24:26):
actually done by Simpson because Terrell was too ill to record.
Terrell would die in nineteen seventy at the age of
twenty four from brain cancer. How much of that urban
legend is true.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Well, you know, for many years I just totally just
dismissed the idea. But the fact is that I did.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
We did.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
Once she was very ill, I would go in with
Marvin and lay down and then we'd go line by
line with her because that was the thing that kept
her going through illness through those you know, so it
was very important that she realized she still had a
job to do, and she wanted to do her job.
I'm not saying that we didn't correct a few things
through me. But by and large, you know, those were
(25:16):
her recordings that weainstakingly did with her alone. So Marvin
really didn't have to live through that whole thing. We
did it. But you know, as a producer, I had
the right to go in and change this or change that,
and there was a little fix ups here and there.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
What about Diana Ross, Oh.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Diana was one of the people who I think we
got some of the best performances out of in terms
of pushing her, making her stretch. She was ever, ever ready.
You know, she was always prepared, and she was willing
to do just about anything to please you. So we
(26:02):
were really fortunate that I think we got some of
her best vocals. And you know people always say, well,
value that sounds like you on the bus, but it's not.
When she was doing all that hooping and holler, we
just had the tape on and caught her at that
moment where she was freed, freed up and doing it.
So I think we got some great vocals out of her.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
Let me ask you as we wrap here, the idea
of you know, you mentioned how long it's been since
Nick passed, and I recall, literally I recall the last
time I saw him. We were in Macy's, pumped into
each other in the men's department, spent about twenty minutes
to just talking literally in Manhattan in the Macy's. And
(26:43):
you know, it seems like he's still to a great
degree with us through the songs. And he was so
beloved by people. You know, I don't have to tell
you that what has the life of the music meant
for you to keep you know, the spirit alive. Not
for yourself, you would have that, I would suspect, but
(27:05):
but for all of us and for all of us
to be able to continue that love of him, you know,
through you and through the music.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Well, I'll tell you a very interesting story. There's a
bench in Brian Park that I bought because he told
me the story early on about sleeping in Brian Park,
and as we walked through there, he showed me the
area that he slept. So eventually the city put those
benches on so that you could buy them, and I
(27:37):
went and I bought the bench that he showed me.
You know, he had slept on. So since he's been gone,
you know a lot of people know that because it
says Nick Gash, who'd slept here on the bench the plaque.
So for the last even ten years or so, we
go to Brian Park on his birthday and then we
get you know, like ten or twelve people family, you know,
(27:59):
my daughters and very close people. And then we go
have lunch and talk about Nick Asher, you know, and
tell stories. And in Brian Park restaurant, well this year
May fourth, it wasn't available because the whole place was rented.
Some saying, oh my goodness, what are we gonna do?
(28:19):
So I asked my daughter, So she said, we'll look
around for somewhere close by. So she ended up with
a restaurant, you know, on forty fifth Street, which was
close enough. The name of the restaurant was Valeries, like
Valleries mean they were leveling? You got a restaurant, I said,
not not to my knowledge. I tell you ed. We
(28:41):
walked in the restaurant, the ten of us, after we've
spent an hour at the bench with Nick and told
some stories, drank some champagne. We always do that too,
We walk into this restaurant called Valeries, and I'll be
dog gone if they're not playing in Ashvid and Simpson's
song as we walk into the door. And then somewhere
(29:02):
in the middle they play Ain't nothing like the real thing,
and then it was spooky, so we kept saying, well,
my goodness, Nick Ashbert has decided we needed another.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
Stumpy DJ today, right, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
He decided we needed a new place, obviously, because here
we are. I would never have been there. You've never
been there, never heard of it. As we were leaving out,
they played Valerie the some Valerie. I was like, Okay,
I got the message, and the food was good. I
would go back. So you just don't know, And I
think that I think you know, our family and friends
(29:42):
and loved ones who have transitions aren't as far away
from us as we think they are. We're just so
busy doing what it is we do that we don't
pay attention, but a lot closer than we think.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Well, well, let me say, first of all, congratulations on
the key to the city, so well deserved, but maybe
more importantly, for all of us who've loved you know,
your music for so many years, we say thank you
for that because at the end of the day, as
you say, it will outlive all of us. And you know,
music is that thing that carries us through, you know,
(30:18):
wonderful times and sad times. And I think it makes
makes the world a little easier, particularly this crazy world
we find ourselves there right now. So thank you so
much and thank you for being you know, a part
of this show today, my pleasure head. Again, a huge
thank you to the wonderful Valerie Simpson, and another congrats
(30:42):
for next month's honor of her being awarded The Key
to New York City. One hundred is produced by ed
Gordon Media and distributed by iHeartMedia. Carol John's in Green
and Sharie Weldon are our bookers. Our editor is Lance
(31:04):
patten Gerald. Albright composed and performed our theme. Please join
me on Twitter and Instagram at edel Gordon and on
Facebook at ed Gordon Media.
Welcome to the latest edition of one hundred The Ed
Gordon Podcast Today a conversation with singer songwriter Valerie Simpson. Simpson,
along with her writing partner and husband Nick Ashford, became
one of the great songwriting teams of the twentieth century.
They started finding success in the mid sixties with songs
(00:41):
for artists including Aretha Franklin and The Fifth Dimension. In
nineteen sixty six, their first big hit was Let's Get
Stoned by the legendary Ray Charles. That song brought them
to the attention of Motown founder Barry Gordy, who brought
them to the company, where they began to craft songs
(01:02):
for Marvin Gay and Tammy Terrell and Diana Ross. The
duo's years at Motown began a string of hits that
would bring classics. Ain't nothing like the real thing, reach
out and touch Somebody's hands, You're all I need to
get by, and many more, and the hits continued into
the next decades. I'm every Woman for Shaka Khan, Teddy
(01:23):
Pendergrass and is It Still Good to You? And Landlord
for Gladys Knight in the Pits, just to name a few.
They would later add songs they recorded to that list,
including Solid, Found a Cure and It Seems to Hang On.
The husband and wife team continued creating music until Nick's
(01:44):
death in twenty eleven. Over their career, they received countless
awards and accolades, including their induction to the Songwriter's Hall
of Fame in twenty four. Next month, the native New
Yorker will receive the key to the city. That's where
we started our conversation. I wondered how she felt about
(02:06):
getting the key.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Well, you know, wars are not my thing, but my
daughters felt something so much about this till I had
to look at it again through their eyes, you know,
and realize that I am a native New Yorker too.
You know, I was born in New York. So it
is a nice thing to be considered and to get it.
(02:28):
So I'm not quite sure what this key is going
to open.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
But hey, let me ask you, when you when you
think about all the accolades that have been bestowed upon
you and obviously Nick over the years.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
You know now that I've gotten old and gray, and
people come to you and talk to you about what
your career has meant to them. When you're in it,
you don't always see it because you're in the middle
of it. You're you're in it. When when time allows
you to look back, and I know, people come to
you and talk out the soundtrack of their lives and
all of those things, what's that mean for you to you?
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Well, you know, it's so much more meaningful now than
they were years ago when we were writing the songs,
because I didn't know we were having that kind of
an effect on people or their lives. And I actually,
after being you know, put down like everybody else for
the last two three years, you really start to realize
(03:25):
that you do need songs with meaning that'll touch you
to get you through certain things. And so songs mean
more to me now than they used to. So I'm
really thrilled that I'm a part of that. When people
come up and say, yes, you affected me, Yes I
changed my plans.
Speaker 4 (03:42):
Because of this song. You know, Yes, it's nice. You
know what a lot of people don't know because Ashford
and Simpson is so seminal and in people's minds, seared
in people's minds as a duet not only as performers
but songwriters. But you guys started out as a trio
in writing right.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Initially it was three of us, Jossy, Joe Armstead and myself,
and actually she and I wrote some songs together without Nick,
and then we wrote some songs with Nick, and then
she went on and did some other really great things
in Chicago.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
What was it like to hear that first hit? You know,
everybody talks about Let's Get Stoned, and you all, I think,
you know, don't get the credit for things like California
sold that, the Fifth Dimension did and down the line.
But when you heard Let's Get Stoned, you know, on
the radio, and then saw it climb the charts and
it's Ray Charles, what was that feeling like for you?
Speaker 2 (04:41):
It was a real wow. You know, our initial writing
experience really wasn't We didn't know what a writer gets,
and we didn't realize that there was that kind of
money to come. We were doing something we loved to do,
and we were doing it for the advance that we
would get, not even knowing you know that if it
(05:02):
goes to be a hit, that all of that is
going to happen. So it was really thrilling. I mean,
I think we probably went into like a silent mode
for a couple of months because we were like what
you know, and it's going up the chart. You know,
we're standing outside the bars listening. That's crazy.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
Well, what's it like for you when you when you
think about just the array of songs that you all
have written, you know, you do fall into that that
pantheon of gambling huff you know, Holland Dozer, Holland. I
think about you know, jam and Lewis and Babyface for
more contemporary you know songs and the like. What what's
(05:45):
it like again now to sit back and think about
you know, you again inducted in the Rock and Roll
Hall of Fame. But songs are the thing that stay
with us. You know TV shows you that, but songs
thirty forty fifty years. You know my mom and she
had dementia at the end of her life. The thing
she remembered she could she could sing Rainy Knight in
(06:08):
Georgia like she was singing with Brooke Benton, but couldn't
where we were going a hundred times. You know. Yeah,
talk to me about about what giving the world those
songs has meant to you?
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Well, you know it means that I realize now because
the songs continue to live and have a life of
their own, that they will be here long after I'm gone,
you know. And you know Nick's been gone eleven years now,
so you know, when I hear them and I realize
how important they are and how how they still radiate
(06:43):
and generationally, you know, we're kids, like five years old,
was six years old? No, ain't no mountain high enough,
you know. I'm like, you know, I didn't expect all
of that to happen, you know, so it's really quite rewarding.
And it made me appreciate songwriting and give it more
esteem than I did when we were doing it. You know,
(07:06):
I realized that people really do need something to get
them going and to make them get up and go,
you know, and that's what the song will do for
you if it's the right song.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
You know, some years ago, and I love music. I
can't sing a lit, can't play or instrument that, but
I love music. You know. I'm the liner person can
tell you all of those things. But it wasn't until
a few years back that I knew you guys had
done Shoeshoe Shine by the Dynamic Superiors. You know, do
you often think about those early days, you know, when
(07:43):
you weren't quite sure whether this was going to be
a two year gig or a lifetime gig. What was that?
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Well, nobody in my family, you know, had come through music,
and nobody in Knicks family, so we were always unsure
about what the next move. And just imagine when you're
waiting for a phone, careing and somebody to give you
an opportunity to write a song. It's so ridiculous and
rare you know that these things happen, or that they
(08:12):
even find you. So, you know, it was always a
big surprise. And I think if we had thought about
the logistics of it and how unlikely it would be
that we could beat a success, we probably would have
found other careers. But we really enjoyed it, you know.
I loved it. You know, it's a funny thing. I
(08:33):
was initially even with Jossy. Back then, I was making
a lot of money doing jingles, and then Nick came
to me and said, you know, you're not available to
write seemingly anymore. Got to make up your mind. What
is it that you really want to do? He said,
you know, we got a chance here, you know, And
(08:53):
so I put the jingles down because I loved what
I was doing, you know, with him so even though
was making major six figure money, I knew it wasn't
what I wanted in my life. I couldn't remember them
when I got home.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
You know, let me ask you now that you think
about all of the people that you've worked with too,
you know, from your years at Motown and just the
people that have taken your songs. You know, sometimes it
is those are the fondest memories often, you know, the
(09:29):
people that you look back and came into your lives
because of that. Was there someone who was a favorite
to work with, and not necessarily by their talent, but
just the vibe you all had in the studio With
one given artist, I would.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Say Marvin Marvin Gaye. He was just so generous, and
you know, because he was singing with women, he had
a way of making them better and opening hisself up
to them. And and he really inspired us as producers
because we would be watching him and forgetting that we
(10:06):
were producing the record. Because he would let itself get
so into it, I mean physically into it. He would
do more in the studio than he would do on
the stage to make it happen, to make it come alive,
to give you what you needed, and it was thrilling.
He was really a thrilling artist to record, and he
inspired me a lot.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
What was it? You know? I recall so many people
would compare Barry Gordy to Bob Johnson when they talked
about be et and Motown, and I said, the one
difference was that Barry Gordy was a practitioner of songs.
He wrote songs. Bob was a businessman. And so sometimes
there's a difference that you can't really understand fully what
(10:51):
an artist needs if you haven't been there. I'm wondering
how much producing and writing helped you as an artist.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
Well, for sure having that come first in our lives.
You know, we started out actually as singers, Valerie and Nick,
and that didn't work. We knew we'd never make it
that way, and so the writing became the important thing.
And then when we asked to be producers, we asked
Barry because we thought we were, you know, handing in
(11:21):
really good demos and we knew we were ready to
do it. And that is the foundation of everything. You know,
when you do the production, you get the track the
way you wanted, then you just lay that vocal on
it to put the icing on the cake. So to speak.
And it really meant a lot that we had that
(11:42):
foundation of as producers.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
If you had to pick one artist, songwriter, producer that
you would say I'm going to lay my hat on first,
which would it be? Definitely a songwriter?
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Yeah, I didn't even sing it consider the singing thing
a real thing, you know. I saw Quincy in February.
I went, I was in California, and I got to
go by his house and hang out with him for
a while. And I hadn't seen him in such a
long time, and I got a chance to really tell
him not only that I loved him, but just the
(12:19):
fact that he was the first person that recognized that
I had a voice. I step out as a soloist,
you know, and I was shocked then, and he really
gave me confidence and hard songs and showed me who
I was. You know, sometimes somebody else has to see
it in you for you to even realize that you
got it.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
What was it in terms of having Nick with you
as a singer and then doing solo stuff? Silly, wasn't
I was early on for you a big hit, but
that's you by yourself. And then obviously the majority of
what you did as an artist, was was with your husband?
What's the difference in a duet and having somebody there
(13:02):
with you versus doing it solo? Beyond the obvious.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
I thought of myself as a vehicle to get certain
songs out that we had nobody to record them on,
and so we would produce them on me. And so
that's that's that Valerie Simpson over there. You know, I
think that if I had had major, major success as
a solo singer, I think my head would have got
(13:30):
swolled up and really and truly, you know, because the
business does things to you, you know, and I think
our careers as a you know, as a partnership would
not have been the same.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
What was it for you at Motown? It's always a
mixed bag. Again, I think about my years at BT.
There was some fantastic, wonderful things that BT gave those
of us who worked there, and there was some things
we were like, I don't know, what what was it
like for you? Because you know, artists have and continue
(14:05):
to have an affinity for mister Gordon and for Motown,
but sometimes, you know, working in a place can be difficult.
What was it for you?
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Well, it was more like college to me because he
put us right on top of each other, so you
were always second guessing yourself because what you were hearing
was so good, you know. And then I don't even
know of another record company that would have quality control
where your teams had to you know, go through a
meeting and be judged, you know, and critiqued, you know.
(14:38):
But it all made us stronger, you know. And so
I just learned a lot and we were really just
vibing on each other, you know. And I think he
did it, you know, kept the competition going and it
worked for us.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
Yeah, I mean he you know, I had the pleasure
of getting to know him over the years, and his
favorite stories are that he wanted to be a competition.
He wanted, you know, the attempts to hear the tops,
and the tops made it to, you know, to number one.
And he's telling the attempts of how they got your beat,
so you know, there is but it was a friendly
competition to a great degree.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
But you know what else he did though, he saw
something that we didn't see. He saw the life of
the song that we did not see. He knew that
if he had other artists, if it was a really
good song, if he made somebody else record it as well.
He was putting it online to last a lot longer
than three or four months. He was trying to make standards.
And we didn't even understand that we were in the
(15:35):
midst of doing something like that, you know, which is
why you went to ASCAP, Because they had those writers,
you know, you know, the Gershwins and this and the
that that were doing Broadway things. He was seeing much
further than we were, and you know, I admire that,
you know, and that's probably why you know, these songs
have lasted.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
All right, I'm going to ask you three things about
songs that are always difficult. I don't ask artist anymore,
what's your favorite song? But I found ways around it
if you will. What song are you most asked about
that you wrote?
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Probably Ain't a Mountain?
Speaker 1 (16:12):
What do you think it was about that that resonated?
Speaker 2 (16:15):
Well, you know, it's interesting, you know, because it means
something to people. You know. It was really born out
of a truth, you know, with Nick looking at the
buildings and saying that they look like mountains, you know,
and you know, and New York wasn't going to take
him under, you know, that was his you know, that
was his thought when he looked at it, and that's
(16:37):
what we wrote. Even though we wrote it as a
love song, I think people internally feel what he was feeling,
that he ain't a mountain high enough, you know, to
keep me from my dream, you know, or what it
is I need to accomplish. And I think that's why
it's a much stronger song. If we had written it
that way. I don't know if it would have, you know,
(16:58):
been the same, but the integral part of the song,
so people get it and they feel it.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
If if there were a song you'd pick, and maybe
that's it. But if there were a song you'd pick
to put in a time capsule that they dig up,
you know, twenty five years, fifty years, one hundred years
from now to illustrate an ash Ford and Simpson song,
what would that be?
Speaker 2 (17:23):
H Well, I'm very fond of your all I need
to get by. It just does something from my heart,
So that might be one.
Speaker 5 (17:33):
Yeah, when you became an artist in the sense of
you and Nick started having the hits that you had,
and people were looking at you because you were known
by then as songwriters and producers, even by fans, you know.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
But when you all started to really get on that
role and have the kind of list that major artists
have hits. Wise, now you know you can stand in
the room of a lot of folks and tick off
your hits. Was that surprising to you?
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Oh yeah, oh yeah, it was thrilling, you know. And
what saved us too, is that we got to learn
on the job because we started out as artists and
we weren't that good, you know, but we had that foundation,
that songwriting, so that when we went into that day,
you know, the audience would say, oh they you know,
(18:25):
they did that, you know, so it gave us something
to fall back on, and so they appreciated us a
lot more. I mean Nick used to sweat with the
towels under his arm. We've been nervous. We didn't you know,
we didn't have it together. But we were allowed to
learn on the job. And I love that.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
When did you find it? When did you know that?
When you hit the stage finally, and you know what,
we got it together and you can leave one of
those towels back, you know, behind stage. When did you
know you were there?
Speaker 2 (18:57):
I don't exactly know, but there is something about the
love that an audience gives you. That makes it possible
for you to, oh, supersede what you thought you was
gonna do and do even more because they love you
so much, you know, or if they the more appreciation
(19:20):
they showed us, the better we became right on the spot.
And I love that about performing that sometimes they make
you do stuff you didn't know you were capable of.
You know, you reach out even further and it's a thrill.
I mean it's an instant thrill.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
You know.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Songwriter, you gotta wait months and months and months and
see if the song is going to even do anything,
but the thrill of an audience loving you they can
make it better.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
Is there a song I've asked many artists songwriters this,
you know, do you know if you've written a hit
right then and there? And most, I honestly would say, no,
you don't. There's some that you really believe, yeah we
got it and it's correct, and there are a couple
that you thought, yeah we got it and it didn't
go anywhere. Do you have a song that you even
(20:13):
if it's an album cut, it wasn't released to be
a hit or not. Do you have a song that
most people may not readily know that you love that
you all have written.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Give Me Something Real, which was on our first album.
I really always loved it. It was it had talking,
you know, I talked about my feelings and he talked
about his, and then we get to the punch give
Me Something Real. And then a woman told me that
she was about to get married and after she listened
(20:45):
to that song, she realized that she was marrying for
all the wrong reason and it wasn't the right man,
you know, and so she said, she, you know, just
didn't do it. And so I said, well, that's pretty powerful. Yeah,
So you know those kinds of things, you know, like
I said, if you can change a person's destiny, I
(21:06):
think it's very you know, it's much more than I
thought a song would do.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
We also talked about another career success, the Sugar Bar.
In nineteen ninety six, they opened the restaurant and live
entertainment venue that continues to be a popular spot today.
You know, favorite haunts of people, restaurants and bars and
the like. Really like a song become really near and
(21:32):
dear to them. You know, you have people who will
come every night or will save special occasions to be
in that place. What's that been for you.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
You know, I did not want to have a club.
That's all Nick's dream, you know, because we had a
place before called twenty twenty and that was big, costs
a lot and just drove us crazy. But he still
was in love with the idea of the club thing.
And because we had the building and it was open
on the bottom, he said I'm going to do it again.
(22:03):
I was like, oh Lord, here we go. And sure
enough it was hard, but I wasn't in it. He
did all the decorating, and I'm glad because that we
weren't joined at the hip. So you should, you know,
realize your dream if this is what you want. And
then I ended up spending more time in there than
him because it really was fun and it really was
great to see young artists have give them that little platform.
(22:25):
We'd had artists go from that stage to the Broadway stage,
you know, or to a big gig because somebody's in
the audience watching them. You just don't know, you know,
what what you're doing for somebody if they're great, And
so the place has been very rewarding, and I've seen
so many of them do so well that it's pretty thrilling,
(22:46):
you know, it's a way of giving back.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
I'm just gonna throw a couple of names out. I
had some fun with Gambling, Huff and jam and Lewis
with this. I asked them about particular artists and they
talked about them recording and being in the studio, what
they were like. So let me just, you know, throw
out a couple of names for you that you worked with.
What was it for Gladys Knight and the Pips for
you because you did Landlord and Bushy Bushy taste a
(23:10):
bit of love with them? What was it? Because Gladys
is such a i mean such an icon.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
She really is. You know. The nice part about working
with them was we had a house up in Connecticut
and they came up and spent time there, the whole group,
and so we had fun. So it was very much
like family. And then they were so supportive of her.
People don't realize how they helped you with her ad
(23:37):
libs and just you need a raw, raw section, you know.
May Andrew used to tell me, she said, if the
person in the room when you're working out, trying to
do something, if they're not giving you energy, then they
need to leave the room. Well, those Pips gave her
energy and it was fun working with all of them
and those albums. It was more like a family affair
(24:02):
really for us, hanging with her.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
And then you mentioned Marvin and let me ask you this.
Let me see if I can get some of the
urban legend about whether or not you did some vocals
for he and Tammy Terrell and those records. For years,
there was rumor that some of the vocals on certain
Marvin Gaye Tammy Terrell songs off their third album were
(24:26):
actually done by Simpson because Terrell was too ill to record.
Terrell would die in nineteen seventy at the age of
twenty four from brain cancer. How much of that urban
legend is true.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Well, you know, for many years I just totally just
dismissed the idea. But the fact is that I did.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
We did.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
Once she was very ill, I would go in with
Marvin and lay down and then we'd go line by
line with her because that was the thing that kept
her going through illness through those you know, so it
was very important that she realized she still had a
job to do, and she wanted to do her job.
I'm not saying that we didn't correct a few things
through me. But by and large, you know, those were
(25:16):
her recordings that weainstakingly did with her alone. So Marvin
really didn't have to live through that whole thing. We
did it. But you know, as a producer, I had
the right to go in and change this or change that,
and there was a little fix ups here and there.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
What about Diana Ross, Oh.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Diana was one of the people who I think we
got some of the best performances out of in terms
of pushing her, making her stretch. She was ever, ever ready.
You know, she was always prepared, and she was willing
to do just about anything to please you. So we
(26:02):
were really fortunate that I think we got some of
her best vocals. And you know people always say, well,
value that sounds like you on the bus, but it's not.
When she was doing all that hooping and holler, we
just had the tape on and caught her at that
moment where she was freed, freed up and doing it.
So I think we got some great vocals out of her.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
Let me ask you as we wrap here, the idea
of you know, you mentioned how long it's been since
Nick passed, and I recall, literally I recall the last
time I saw him. We were in Macy's, pumped into
each other in the men's department, spent about twenty minutes
to just talking literally in Manhattan in the Macy's. And
(26:43):
you know, it seems like he's still to a great
degree with us through the songs. And he was so
beloved by people. You know, I don't have to tell
you that what has the life of the music meant
for you to keep you know, the spirit alive. Not
for yourself, you would have that, I would suspect, but
(27:05):
but for all of us and for all of us
to be able to continue that love of him, you know,
through you and through the music.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Well, I'll tell you a very interesting story. There's a
bench in Brian Park that I bought because he told
me the story early on about sleeping in Brian Park,
and as we walked through there, he showed me the
area that he slept. So eventually the city put those
benches on so that you could buy them, and I
(27:37):
went and I bought the bench that he showed me.
You know, he had slept on. So since he's been gone,
you know a lot of people know that because it
says Nick Gash, who'd slept here on the bench the plaque.
So for the last even ten years or so, we
go to Brian Park on his birthday and then we
get you know, like ten or twelve people family, you know,
(27:59):
my daughters and very close people. And then we go
have lunch and talk about Nick Asher, you know, and
tell stories. And in Brian Park restaurant, well this year
May fourth, it wasn't available because the whole place was rented.
Some saying, oh my goodness, what are we gonna do?
(28:19):
So I asked my daughter, So she said, we'll look
around for somewhere close by. So she ended up with
a restaurant, you know, on forty fifth Street, which was
close enough. The name of the restaurant was Valeries, like
Valleries mean they were leveling? You got a restaurant, I said,
not not to my knowledge. I tell you ed. We
(28:41):
walked in the restaurant, the ten of us, after we've
spent an hour at the bench with Nick and told
some stories, drank some champagne. We always do that too,
We walk into this restaurant called Valeries, and I'll be
dog gone if they're not playing in Ashvid and Simpson's
song as we walk into the door. And then somewhere
(29:02):
in the middle they play Ain't nothing like the real thing,
and then it was spooky, so we kept saying, well,
my goodness, Nick Ashbert has decided we needed another.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
Stumpy DJ today, right, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
He decided we needed a new place, obviously, because here
we are. I would never have been there. You've never
been there, never heard of it. As we were leaving out,
they played Valerie the some Valerie. I was like, Okay,
I got the message, and the food was good. I
would go back. So you just don't know, And I
think that I think you know, our family and friends
(29:42):
and loved ones who have transitions aren't as far away
from us as we think they are. We're just so
busy doing what it is we do that we don't
pay attention, but a lot closer than we think.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Well, well, let me say, first of all, congratulations on
the key to the city, so well deserved, but maybe
more importantly, for all of us who've loved you know,
your music for so many years, we say thank you
for that because at the end of the day, as
you say, it will outlive all of us. And you know,
music is that thing that carries us through, you know,
(30:18):
wonderful times and sad times. And I think it makes
makes the world a little easier, particularly this crazy world
we find ourselves there right now. So thank you so
much and thank you for being you know, a part
of this show today, my pleasure head. Again, a huge
thank you to the wonderful Valerie Simpson, and another congrats
(30:42):
for next month's honor of her being awarded The Key
to New York City. One hundred is produced by ed
Gordon Media and distributed by iHeartMedia. Carol John's in Green
and Sharie Weldon are our bookers. Our editor is Lance
(31:04):
patten Gerald. Albright composed and performed our theme. Please join
me on Twitter and Instagram at edel Gordon and on
Facebook at ed Gordon Media.
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