November 11, 2025 • 38 mins
On this episode of Our American Stories, he was called “Mad Anthony” for a reason. General Anthony Wayne led with grit and daring through some of the fiercest battles of the American Revolution. From the fight for independence to the campaign that secured the Northwest Territory, his name became a symbol of relentless courage. Historian Dr. Mary Stockwell, author of Mad Anthony Wayne and the Battle for America, tells the story of the general who earned his nickname on the battlefield and helped define the nation that followed.
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
This is Lee Habib and this is our American Stories,
and we tell stories about everything here on this show.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Up next a story.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
About a famous general of the American Revolution, Mad Anthony Wayne.
Here's our own Monte Montgomery with a story.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Chances are if you're from the Midwest, you've probably heard
of Matt Anthony Wayne before. Fort Wayne is named after him.
Wayne County, where Detroit is located, is two. And there's
a bridge bearing his name in Toledo, Ohio.
Speaker 4 (00:41):
But he's a lot more than just his namesakes.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Here's doctor Mary Stockwell, author of Unlikely General Mad Anthony
Wayne in the Battle for America, with why that is?
Speaker 5 (00:56):
I can tell you my own experience when I would
tell people I'm writing a book about Anthony Wayne, and
they would say, why, why are you bothering? He was mad?
He was a madman, and his name is everywhere out here.
We don't just have a bridge about Anthony Wayne. We
have Anthony Wayne vet clinics, and Anthony Wayne plumbing and
Anthony Wayne roofing and all kinds of things. But in
(01:19):
the mind of most people, I started to ask them,
what do you think about him? And they would say, well,
he was this wild, mad man, and he loved war
and all these things, and that's kind of who he is.
Within the last century, Wayne has kind of come into
the memory of the American Revolution. It's just a wild
man who loved to kill the British, and then he
came out here and he just loved to kill the Indians.
(01:40):
None of this is true. There's no resemblance to the
real Anthony Wayne. He was born on New Year's Day,
seventeen forty five, just outside of Philadelphia. He was very wealthy,
might have been one of the wealthiest young men who
would participated in the Revolution. His father trained him to
(02:02):
be a lawyer, but Wayne wanted to be a soldier,
and his father said, we're in the British Empire. You're
a young colonial. You're never going to make it in
the British army. But he had a vivid imagination and
from the time he was little, he was swept up
in stories of warfare, the glory of it all, leading
(02:23):
men in battle, he would later write, as he was
fighting the Revolution, sometimes he would look ahead and he
would say, I can see myself on horseback and I'm
riding into Philadelphia. And we won a great battle, and
the laurels are on me the way they were on Caesar,
and the golden light is upon me. He loved that.
He loved the camaraderie of being with his fellow men.
(02:44):
He loved serving George Washington. But the dream was glory,
and in his imagination it all seems so wonderful and
so beautiful. You have to remember too, that if a
young boy was well educated in revolutionary times or pre
revolutionary times, he would have learned Latin. And to learn Latin,
you would have read the great writers in Latin, ancient Romans.
(03:06):
One of the greatest writers was Julia Season. So he
read all his commentaries. He knew every battle, and in
his imagination he ran it almost like a movie. Someday
I'll be a part of this glorious enterprise, and to think,
when fame and fortune, I'll go down in the annals
of my nation. But his father got him a job
as a surveyor. He said that I think if he
(03:28):
can get out in the world and survey land, that
will maybe get some of this energy off of him.
What happens, though, is the American revolution starts to get
under way, and he joins the revolutionary cause. He becomes
a member of the Pennsylvania Assembly, and he's one of
(03:51):
the very first people in the country who says it's
time to break away from Great Britain. And he says
to anyone who will listen to him, either in the
Assembly or in all the taverns outside of Philadelphia, he says,
we're a de facto republic. We don't have a king,
we don't have nobility. We are the people. We should
rule ourselves. He was on fire for the Revolution the
(04:15):
way Thomas Paine was, the way John Adams was long
before the Revolution started. And once the contin ironal army
starts to form, this childhood dream he had to be
a soldier can finally be realized, and he goes off
to George Washington's camp on Long Island in seventeen seventy six.
Again a very handsome man, beautifully dressed. His father taught
(04:37):
him to always look your part. He knew every battle
Julius Caesar ever fought. He bounced into Washington's camp. I
am here, I'm here to serve the revolution. I'm here
to serve my nation. But he knew nothing really beyond
what he had read in his ancient history books. But
when Washington met him, he said, well he's got one
thing at least in that's enthusiasm. It's interesting. The very
(05:02):
first thing George Washington gave him to do, he said, oh, well,
this man's a gentleman. How about you join us in
a fox hunt. But very quickly Wayne was given one
assignment after another, and it becomes really better and better
at it. The very first thing he was sent to do,
he was sent with the American Army to a place
called Three Rivers in Canada. Now this is June seventeen
(05:22):
seventy six, and in this Battle of Three Rivers, the
army is completely defeated. Who leads the retreat? Anthony Wayne.
He releads the retreat of the army back into New York,
and people say about him. He seems to snap to
attention immediately once the battle begins. What he remembers because
he writes to his young wife about every battle he's
(05:44):
going into, and he tells her he goes, when I
was heading to Three Rivers, the first thing I realized,
all that glory and all that wonder of childhood is gone.
I could possibly die in this horrible battle. What am
I doing this for? But once the battle begins again,
he snapped to attention. So Washington learned very quickly if
he needed somebody to help with a retreat, Wayne just
(06:06):
naturally could move an army faster, get it out of danger.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
And we're listening to doctor Mary Stockwell tell the story
of Mad Anthony Wayne, the unlikely General, and giving Well
a little more depth to the story. While as Paul
Harvey like to say, the rest of the story of
this great man, he was well a dandy. He looked
like a gentleman. But something happened to him in battle,
(06:35):
and of course he'd thought about it all of his life.
He snaps to attention when the battle begins. That could
be a kind of thing, as you could ever say
about anybody, Because some people retrench once the battle begins,
or they hide. He snaps to attention when the battle begins.
More of Mad Anthony Wayne's story here on our American story. Folks,
(07:30):
if you love the stories we tell about this great country,
and especially the stories of America's rich past, know that
all of our stories about American history, from war to innovation,
culture and faith, are brought to us by the great
folks at Hillsdale College, a place where students study all
the things that are beautiful in life and all the
things that are good in life. And if you can't
get to Hillsdale, Hillsdale will come to you with their
(07:52):
free and terrific online courses.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Go to Hillsdale dot edu to learn more.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
And we're back with our American stories and the story
of mad Anthony Wayne.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Let's return to doctor Mary Stockwell.
Speaker 3 (08:18):
After losing the Battle of Three Rivers, Anthony Wayne would
be sent to Fort ticonder Roga and hated every minute
of it. He was out of the action, but the
action would soon come.
Speaker 5 (08:30):
He goes onto the Battle of Brandywine. Now we're in
September seventeen seventy seven. Washington calls him back. This is
now a frightening time because of the British armies coming
to take the city of Philadelphia. So Washington puts all
his men along Brandywine Creek to the west, trying to
stop them. There, he puts Wayne right up on the
bluff looking over Brandywin Creek, gets him the artillery. What's
(08:52):
interesting about Wayne at this time he realizes on the
battlefield something's going wrong. Goes to Washington and said, I
don't think we're in the right position. I think the
British are not crossing where we think they're crossing. I
think they're coming north. They're going to come around Brandywine Creek.
They're going to attack us from the rear. We're going
to be surrounded. So we had an ability to figure
(09:14):
out in the midst of a battle what was happening.
George Washington made a terrible mistake. He told Wayne go
back up to that bluff. The British are crossing where
we think they're crossing. Wayne was right, count alarming, was
almost surrounded, almost destroyed, but they got out of there.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
But despite Washington's mistake at Brandywine Creek, Anthony Wayne remained
one of his greatest supporters, even though they had some
major differences.
Speaker 5 (09:39):
George Washington was the kind of person who always controlled
his emotions. Anthony Wayne was a very enthusiastic or as
hard as a sleeve. He had no sense that anybody
was greater or lesser than anyone else. He just befriended
George Washington and was much warmer to him than probably
Washington once to Wayne. Maybe the most wonderful things I've
(10:02):
discovered was well Wayne was Washington's cheerleader. Other people again.
They respected Washington, they kept him at a distance. Wayne
didn't feel that way. He felt they were friends. Before
every battle, he would write George Washington a letter saying,
you're gonna win. You're in a great position. Yes, Caesar
did it before, you can do it. You can win
(10:23):
this battle. And when it was over and Washington didn't
didn't win, he often lost the battle. Who would he
get a letter from Anthony Wayne and Wayne would say
to him, we're in a better position than we were
before he lost. We will get through this, you will
get better. And he said, I want you to be
the next Julius Caesar. He realizes very quickly he's not
(10:45):
Julius Caesar. This isn't going to be a war of
glorious battles. This is going to be a war of
attrition and staying in the field and keeping the army
in the film. And finally Wayne realizes, well, I was disappointed,
maybe up to Valley forged that he's not Julius Caesar.
But I realized this man that I love and respect
so much, my elder brother, is a new kind of leader.
(11:07):
He's a political leader, he's a moral leader. He's got
to keep the army in the field. This is what
a modern revolution looks like.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
Wayne's support for Washington would pay off and he would
work his way up the ranks in the Continental Army.
Speaker 4 (11:24):
But the war wasn't all glory.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
For Anthony Wayne, and in fact, it became anything butt
for him.
Speaker 5 (11:30):
He's remembered for three big mistakes that he made. Washington
gives him an assignment. He said, in the middle of
the night, I want you to attack the baggage train
of the British as they head east into Philadelphia. Just
get the baggage train. Wayne gets his men up on
the road into Philadelphia in between the Paoli and the
Warren Tavern. The people come to him and say the British, no,
(11:53):
you're here. Then he said, no, the British will not
do this. I am not going to listen to farmers
and children about where the British.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
Well.
Speaker 5 (12:01):
In the middle of the night, the British did strike.
It was called the Paoli Massacre. Many of his men
were killed. He got them out of there. He retreated,
which he was so good at. But if he had
listened and stopped with his dreams and what he thought
was going to happen, and listen to what was happening
to him on the ground that wouldn't have happened.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Then, on January first, seventeen eighty one, Wayne oversaw the
Pennsylvania Line mutiny, a situation that happened when countless men
tired of war threw down their weapons and threatened to
defect to the British Army. But it was a third
failure that caused the press to apply nickname to him
that had been used by his own men.
Speaker 5 (12:41):
At a place called Green Spring Plantation, He's convinced, oh, look,
there's a baggage train of Cornwallis going back to North Carolina. Well,
I'll attack it. That kind of blood either nose. He
lines his men up, and then he realizes, wait a minute,
Cornwallis's entire army is still here. What am I to do?
This man who can think so quickly on his feet
(13:03):
set for the only time in his battle, he couldn't
remember what to do because I don't know what to do.
I don't think Julius Caesar was ever in this position.
So finally he realized, at the Battle of Camden, which
had happened in South Carolina, the American Army had been
in a similar situation they attacked to surprise the enemy,
and then they retreated quickly. That's what he did. He
attacked kind of stun Cornwallis and then they retreated away
(13:27):
from Green Spring Plantation. He lost all his artillery, many
of his horses, he lost many of his men. Again,
Washington faulted him for that. And this is the first
time you see the nickname mad Anthony applied to him
in the Northern press. He had been called mad just
because of his terrible temper. He got the nickname because
(13:49):
he had a spy, a little Irish spy who would
help him. And the spy would come and go as
he pleased. Well, one night and his name was Jemmy. Jemmy,
the rover Antony ways looking for him. Where is Jemmy?
I I need information on the British and Jemmy's gone.
When Jemmy comes back to camp that night, they tell him, Anthony,
Wayne's looking for you, and he's you know, he's steaming,
he's angry. And this is where the word mad comes from.
(14:12):
The irishman said, ah, that he's mad. He's mad. The
general is mad, you know the best that I go
off and not confront him. Jemmy was never seen again,
even though Wayne told his wife, see if you can
find him. That's that's what the nickname was. But now
people say maybe he's mad, a little bit crazy and
reckless on the battlefield.
Speaker 4 (14:34):
And Wayne would soon start to despair.
Speaker 5 (14:37):
He goes through an immense transformation in the Revolution, and
he gives a record of it in his really beautiful letters.
He might start out in seventeen seventy six, this is
all glory, this is all wonderful, this is all fun.
But as he watches his men suffer without clothes, without shoes,
without food, without pay, always having to beg the political
(15:00):
leaders and the people, the populace for help, he begins
to despair over the cause of the American cause, and
it begins to wear on him. He shot before Yorktown.
That wound never heals. He becomes sick, and he goes
into depression. And his depression, he calls it, it's the
blue damsel. So come in the night. How can this
(15:23):
be happening to us? How can we be a turning
point in world history? And that people don't support us.
One of the most interesting things I discovered are his
writings after Yorktown, when the Battle of Yorktown is won.
Everyone is gloriously happy. I always think of Trumpell's beautiful
painting when everybody's lined up at Yorktown. It's so stunningly beautiful.
(15:46):
And that's not what happened. That's not what Wayne remembered.
Wayne remembered how the British had to walk with the
Hessians on this thing called the surrender. They walked out
to the surrender field. You can see it in Yorktown today.
When in the midst of all this jubilation, he never
forgot he looked across the way and they were the French,
(16:07):
and their silks and satins. They were gorgeous. And he
looked at his own men on the other side of
the road and he said, we're barefoot. Some of my
men couldn't even stand here. They couldn't even cover themselves.
Their clothes are threadbare. And that set him into a despair.
How can we be a nation that doesn't understand what's
at stake? And he begged Washington, I'm going home. It
(16:35):
suddenly dawned on him, wait a minute. I have a
little boy and a little girl. I left them as infants,
Margaretta and Isaac. I have to get an education for
Isaac and a trade. I've got to make a fine
lady out of Margaretta. I've got to get her into
school and get her married. And he says, I'm going home.
I've had it, and Washington says, no, you're going to Georgia.
You're gonna go fight with Nathaniel Green. And in a
(16:59):
terrible campaigned seventeen eighty two to seventeen eighty three that
has completely forgotten today, Wing goes south and he's given
a five hundred man army and he's told, you got
to bring peace to Georgia and make sure the government
works in Georgia remains a state. That's where he really
sinks into despair. That's where he writes to his wife,
(17:19):
who doesn't even write to him anymore, and he says this,
I'm say shit of this war, a trait of blood.
I can't, I don't want to do this anymore. But
he somehow secures Georgia.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
And you've been listening to doctor Mary Stockwell tell the
story of the unlikely General Mad Anthony Wayne. More of
this remarkable story, a soldier's story, a patriots story. Here
on our American stories, and we're back with our American
(18:09):
stories in the story of Mad Anthony Wayne, brought to
us by Mary Stockwell. When we last left off, Waine
had just successfully secured Georgia from the British and the
American Revolution was one. But Wayne could hardly celebrate the
victory he'd fought so hard to help secure. Let's continue
with the story.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
After the war, Wayne was at his lowest point. The
British were defeated, he had secured Georgia and his dreams
of an independent United States were made reality. His life
was shattered, and so was his marriage.
Speaker 5 (18:47):
Anthony Wayne was again married when he's very young to
a girl named Mary, and he called her Polly. He
had two children very quickly, a little girl, Margaratta a
little boy, Isaac. There were only about four too when
he goes off to Philadelphia. It appeared to be a
happy marriage. But as the war goes on and he
(19:08):
is becomes a famous general, women begin to flock to him,
and in the beginning he has flirtations with women, but
as time goes on he has actual romances with women.
He falls madly in love with Nathaniel Greene's wife, Katherine
green She was a beauty, She had a temperament like him,
(19:28):
kind of witty, sarcastic, love to dance, but also a
tendency to despair. He was so close to Katherine Green.
People would tell Nathaniel Green this great general, you better
watch it. Your wife and your best friend. Something's going on,
and you say, no, they're not crossing the line. But
she was the love of his life, absolute love of
his life. News of this starts to come back to
(19:51):
Missus Wayne, and for a while she kind of pushes
it aside. These stories can't be true. But a point
finally comes when she realizes I've lost him. It's the
way say you're a movie star, a rock star, and
you go off and you have this adulation even in
the midst of suffering, and you forget your family. The
(20:15):
real break for missus Wayne comes at Yorktown. Wayne has
come home after so many battles. He says, I'm gonna
come home. The war is over. I can't do this anymore.
And when he goes off to Yorktown and then he
has to go off to Georgia, there's a break there
and she never quite forgives him, and they never quite
restore the relationship, but he never stops writing to her.
(20:38):
He writes to her like he does to Washington before
every battle. He writes to her after every battle. He
doesn't ask her about herself. But it would have driven
me nuts if I was missus Wayne. But he pours
out maybe his best writing to this love of his,
of his youth, and he tells her about the transformation
he's passing through, and that he doesn't don't like war anymore.
(21:01):
He doesn't want glory, and he's losing so much.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
Weien also had a hard time settling down after so
many years of bloody conflict.
Speaker 5 (21:11):
After the Revolution. He can't go home again. I don't
know if you've ever seen the movie The Best Years
of Our Lives about men who come back from World
War Two. But my father was in World War Two
and he used to say, watch that movie. It's hard
to be in this thick of battle and then to
come home and do normal things. He tries to come home,
he can't settle down. Georgia has given him a plantation
(21:35):
outside of Savannah for his services in the war. He
goes down there. He's convinced I'm going to become this
great planter. It's a disaster. He ends up in total debt.
His depression grows greater and greater and greater. He drinks heavily.
He's sick. He has the gout. On most mornings. He
(21:55):
can't even stand. He has to wrap his arms and
legs and flannel. His body is really suffering. But he
tells his wife, I'm really doing this for you and
the children. I'm trying to make money. I think he
was doing it just because he couldn't give up the struggle.
After the war was over, he goes so far into
debt by about seventeen ninety seventeen ninety one, he almost
sells off his family's farm and leaves his family homeless
(22:19):
in Pennsylvania. His friends are stunned. They're saying, Wayne, you've
lost your mind. Come back to Pennsylvania. Stop this. He
finally is facing Debtor's prison. He's so afraid he's going
to go into Debtor's prison. His children no, He's lost
his relationship with his children, and he decides, you know,
if I run for office, I think you get immunity
(22:40):
from prison. So in seventeen ninety one, he runs for
the House of Representatives from Georgia. He gets elected, he
gets to Congress. He sits in Congress. He says, I'm safe,
I paid my debts, I sold my southern plantation. Everything's great.
And the man he defeated shows up in Philadelphia, comes
to Congress and said Wayne's supporters stuffed ballot boxes to
(23:03):
get him elected. He didn't know about it, but it
was corrupt. And Wayne is thrown out of Congress. And
he has just been humiliated by being thrown out of Congress.
So by the early seventeen nineties, when George Washington as president,
Wayne is quite a scandalous man.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
But nevertheless, the United States was in a predicament. In
the West. We were having massive issues with fighting the Indians,
and Washington needed a general.
Speaker 5 (23:30):
Washington has a plan to move us west. And can
you imagine if we hadn't moved across the Appalachians, if
we hadn't crossed the Ohio, if we hadn't gotten all
the way out to the Mississippi River, we would have
been thirteen little states, you know, dying on the vine.
Washington has this plan where I'll negotiate with the Indians.
I'll respect them, I'll buy their land, I'll pay them
(23:51):
money and goods every year, and they'll slowly allow the
Americans to cross the Ohio River. They signed treaties to
do that, but then they confederated with the help of
the British. They were led by little Turtle bluejacket. Great
chiefs like that. They just say if Washington, if you
cross the Yohio River, it'll run red with the blood
of your young men. Washington keeps negotiating, but one army
(24:13):
is destroyed, and seventeen ninety under Harmer November seventeen ninety one,
a second army is destroyed under Arthur Saint Clair. At
this very moment, Wayne is just thrown out of Congress
and George Washington has to find a general. He's desperate.
What he does is he gets a list of all
the people who had been generals through the American Revolution.
(24:35):
Looks down the list. Oh my lord, he said, I
need somebody active, brave, and so where that. These men
are all old, sick and tired. He sees everybody, and
he criticizes everybody. He looks at Wayne. He doesn't. He's
worried about Wayne. Yes he's active, Yes he's enterprising, but
oh maybe he doesn't always have the best judgment. I
(24:57):
don't know if I can send this man westward. WILLI
will there be a mutiny? Will he spend too much money?
When I've got you know, I've got James Madison breathing
down my neck about my expenditures. Should I choose him?
He remembers his mistakes, He forgets everything he did. He
tells his cabinet, I'm thinking about Wayne, and they explode.
(25:18):
It's Knocks at War, it's Jefferson at State, it's Hamilton
at Treasure. They go, you can't pick this man too.
He's to scandalousy. He's just just please don't do it.
But Washington has to look back. What about Wayne? Does
he know? Nobody else knows? Well? He knows that Wayne
thinks he's perfection. He knows that Wayne is devoted to him.
(25:40):
He remembers that that if I pick him, he'll fight
with me. He'll stay with me, he won't turn on me.
He remembers those letters. Washington remembers how before every battle
he'd get this great letter, you can do it. Afterward
he would write the we'll still win, probably the last
two things in his favor from Pennsylvania. Washington didn't want
(26:02):
to appear as if the West belonged to Virginia. He
kept appointing generals from Pennsylvania to go fight the Indians
were necessary and the last thing Wayne wanted the job.
Wayne had been writing to politicians since seventeen eighty nine.
When the Constitution is approved, I'll do anything. What do
you want me to do? I will help America. If
(26:23):
there's something I can do to help my country, let
me do it. And Wayne, and Washington says, I'm taking
a chance on Anthony Wayne. And again when he does,
he has to appoint him in seventeen ninety two to
command this new army in the West. And people write
to him like, how can you appoint this man with
all these scandals and all this, And Washington says, I
(26:46):
he's got to overcome his foibles. But Wayne also understands
the seriousness of the situation and he'll live up to it.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
And you're listening to doctor Mary Stock will tell one
heck of a story about a complicated man. More of
this remarkable story, Mad Anthony Wayne's story here on our
American Stories. And we're back with our American Stories and
(27:40):
the story of Mad Anthony Wayne. When we last left off,
George Washington, Wayne's old boss had taken a massive bet
on him, against the advice of his cabinet, and Wayne
was sent west to fight the Indians. Let's continue the story.
Speaker 5 (27:56):
He remembered the French and Indian wars, little boy, and
he knew they were exciting tales of warfare over the mountains.
His father fought no French and Indian war. But he
has no experience with Indians except women. Up at Fort Taekondroga,
he sees the Indian women who come into the fort,
often as mistresses of the soldiers. But no experience fighting anybody.
(28:21):
No experience until he gets to Georgia. When he gets
to Georgia and he has to deal with the Creek
Indians who have seen their trade disrupted because he's now
breaking their tie with the British and Savannah. He writes
speeches to them. They're almost embarrassing to read. You know,
he has no idea who he's talking to. That he's
talking to real people who are traders, who are involved
(28:43):
in the British economy. He tells the Indians, your simple
children of the forest. You know, you stay over there
and hunt your deer. Let the white man over here
fight our battles, and we'll be friends when the war's over.
His camp is ambushed in seventeen eighty three, he comes
close to being That kind of wakes him up. You know,
these are real people. They are deeply involved with the
(29:06):
world economy, They're deeply involved with diplomacy. They're great fighters,
and he gains a respect for the Indians almost overnight.
He talks to anybody who's been out west, and he says,
I Am going to learn how they fight, and I'm
going to show them the respect they deserve. These are
not savages. These are the top soldiers. They know this
(29:27):
continent better than we do. My God, I'm going to
have to train my army to be as good as them.
An absolute terror. When he leaves Philadelphia in the spring
of seventeen ninety two, he writes his last will and testament.
He goes, I'm not coming back from this alive. The
power on the North American continent in the seventeen nineties
not the United States We're weak. The power the Great
(29:49):
Confederation nations out west, the Shawnee, the Delaware, and the
British who are on American soil arming and supporting them.
The British wanted us defeated in the West, so he
comes west with immense respect, and he's got to teach
his men how to respect the Indians more than anything else.
He discovers, I gotta find ways to teach them not
(30:11):
to be afraid because my men are terrifying. Let's say
that you're going up against the British. That's frightening. You
line up the Continental Army on one side, the British
line up on the other, and they keep coming after you,
and waves and waves and waves. Wayne says, that's frightening enough.
He said, the difference is if you're going into the wilderness,
(30:32):
you've got to train your army and have them so
perfectly trained because as you're marching, probably hoping for a
confrontation or afraid of a confrontation with them, he said,
they're tracking you, but you'll never see them. You'll never
see them until the moment they strike. And he said
when they line up, they will line up not like savy.
(30:52):
They're going to line up against you, and they will
command the place, the time the battle. If you don't
immediately get into position and don't immediately throw back their
first assault, you're going to be surrounded, you're going to
be defeated, and there's no quarter it's not like you're
going to be a prisoner of the British and set
(31:15):
off to a prison ship. You will be killed, and
you will be killed in some horrifying ways.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
And the hard training would work for Wayne, and luckily so,
because negotiations would break down and he would once again
be forced to fight.
Speaker 5 (31:33):
He gets command of the army. There is no army.
It's been wiped out in November seventeen ninety one, and
Washington tells him, you're the commander of this new thing.
We're going to call it the Legion of the United States.
Get out first to Pittsburgh. He'll later be sent to Cincinnati,
and then it'll be sent up to a place called Greenville,
where he build this big fort. They promise him five
(31:55):
thousand men. He never gets more than about one thousand men.
And they said, the men so perfectly that if we
call you into battle, you will defeat them. But don't
scare the Indians because the negotiations are ongoing, So don't
appear too aggressive. If we do tell you the negotiations
have broke down and you must fight, then you will fight.
(32:15):
And Wayne does what he's told. He said, I can
train the men to march. I can train them to
follow orders, I can train them to shoot. They can't shoot.
But he said, the thing that I'm really struggling with,
they're so terrified. In the very first Indian attack, he
lines his men up and he says, Okay, I'm gonna
go up on the ramparts, check for the Indians, and
(32:37):
then I'm gonna come back and we'll be ready to fight.
Indians aren't there. When he turns around to go back
to his men, they've all fled. They've completely fled. They
don't want to fight. He he had to do this
a few times when he was training his men, when
they were so terrified. He said, all right, line everybody up,
gets on his horse, goes back and forth in front
(32:58):
of his men. This army put together, He said, if
the battle begins and the riflemen up at the front run,
I'm going to order the dragoons behind them to shoot
the riflemen. If the dragoons run, then the light infantry
behind them shoot the dragoons. If everybody runs, I'm going
to turn my own artillery on you guys. What he
(33:20):
wanted them to be was more afraid of him than
the enemy. And he also said, if we all run,
we all die, because there's no quarter in Indian warfare.
After two years of training his men, Washington tells Knox
to tel Wayne, the negotiations are done. Start taking that
(33:44):
thousand men army. Call up the Kentucky militia, the mounted riflemen.
Start marching north. Go up the Mamie River towards Lake Erie.
The British have just built an illegal fort there in
seventeen ninety four. It's south of Detroit Arming. They're directing
the Indians there. You're probably going to meet the Indians
(34:06):
and the British and the Canadian militia somewhere between Greenville
and what is now the city of Toledo, Ohio. Just
start marching. You must defeat them, and when you defeat them,
you gotta get a treaty. It's a nerve wracking march.
And it's finally August the nineteenth. No Indians have attack
them and they begin the final march on the morning
(34:28):
of August the twentieth. The night before this, there's been
a terrible rainstorm and all of the drums have lost
their you know, their ability to pound. They're all loosened
in the rain, and Wayne is like, I've trained you
guys for two years to march to my orders and
to line up in battle in a line against the Indians.
(34:49):
Based on these He calls this young lieutenant who has
been he's taken liking to and he puts a green
sash around him and he says, if the comes tomorrow,
you have to ride back and forth through the lines
with my orders. And that young man with the green
sash is William Henry Harrison. The shots ring out against
(35:11):
Wayne's men. Wayne's men run in terror, and suddenly within
five minutes Wayne has them in perfect order. Everybody lines
up in these huge, two huge parallel lines against the Indians.
They're fighting over trees that were down. The battle goes
on for about maybe an hour. Indians attack on the right,
(35:31):
the attack on the left. They come up the center.
The eye witnesses of the Indians who are in the
battle are amazing.
Speaker 4 (35:39):
They go, he didn't fold.
Speaker 5 (35:41):
They held their line, and they said, suddenly we heard
Wayne's trumpets, and here's trumpets on the left, the right,
the center. He's coming after us. He's surrounding us, and
they flee the field. They run back about three or
four miles to this illegal British fort and the British
and then they close the gates and the faces of
these Indians and they said, we don't know you, and
(36:03):
we didn't have anything to do with this battle. And
then the Indians have to flee with their families back
to wherever they'd come. It's we now call it the
Battle of Fallen Timbers. Wayne called it the Battle of
the Rapids. He said, I remember when we got up
to the rapids of the river Bang, the Indian line
was formed against us. It was classic Brandywine, classic German town.
(36:27):
They were lined up to fight us, and we were ready.
We didn't fold my men. He was stunned. He never
recovered from this victory. He goes, I think I want
a victory. It was again, this is the battle that
has all the monuments out here, but nobody knows who
Wayn was. What he was fighting about. He's fighting to
(36:48):
allow Americans to sell north of the Ohio. It takes
a year from the Indians to finally come in and
write a treaty. They come in a year later, they
write the Treaty of Greenville, and they say, all right,
you can settle north of the Ohio. We'll move back
towards the lakes. We will allie with each other, we'll
trade with each other. And the British also signed Jay's treaty,
(37:11):
and they say we leave, we leave, We're going back
to Canada. It's in the end a great victory. What
Wayne has really one. It is about maybe ten years
of peace seventeen ninety five to eighteen oh five, to
allow Americas to grow wester, to become stronger and really
win the country from the Appalachians to the Mississippi. When
(37:33):
if for real, that's the military side of things, that's
the battle that Anthony Wayne wins. But he almost never,
for the few remaining months of his life, could hardly
believe that he actually trained an army, that they stood
in fight and they won and defeated this powerful enemy.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
And great work on that mante and a special thanks
to doctor Mary Stockwell, author of Unlikely General Mad Anthony
Wayne in the Battle for America, The Story of Mad
Anthony Wayne.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
Here on our American Stories
This is Lee Habib and this is our American Stories,
and we tell stories about everything here on this show.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Up next a story.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
About a famous general of the American Revolution, Mad Anthony Wayne.
Here's our own Monte Montgomery with a story.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Chances are if you're from the Midwest, you've probably heard
of Matt Anthony Wayne before. Fort Wayne is named after him.
Wayne County, where Detroit is located, is two. And there's
a bridge bearing his name in Toledo, Ohio.
Speaker 4 (00:41):
But he's a lot more than just his namesakes.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Here's doctor Mary Stockwell, author of Unlikely General Mad Anthony
Wayne in the Battle for America, with why that is?
Speaker 5 (00:56):
I can tell you my own experience when I would
tell people I'm writing a book about Anthony Wayne, and
they would say, why, why are you bothering? He was mad?
He was a madman, and his name is everywhere out here.
We don't just have a bridge about Anthony Wayne. We
have Anthony Wayne vet clinics, and Anthony Wayne plumbing and
Anthony Wayne roofing and all kinds of things. But in
(01:19):
the mind of most people, I started to ask them,
what do you think about him? And they would say, well,
he was this wild, mad man, and he loved war
and all these things, and that's kind of who he is.
Within the last century, Wayne has kind of come into
the memory of the American Revolution. It's just a wild
man who loved to kill the British, and then he
came out here and he just loved to kill the Indians.
(01:40):
None of this is true. There's no resemblance to the
real Anthony Wayne. He was born on New Year's Day,
seventeen forty five, just outside of Philadelphia. He was very wealthy,
might have been one of the wealthiest young men who
would participated in the Revolution. His father trained him to
(02:02):
be a lawyer, but Wayne wanted to be a soldier,
and his father said, we're in the British Empire. You're
a young colonial. You're never going to make it in
the British army. But he had a vivid imagination and
from the time he was little, he was swept up
in stories of warfare, the glory of it all, leading
(02:23):
men in battle, he would later write, as he was
fighting the Revolution, sometimes he would look ahead and he
would say, I can see myself on horseback and I'm
riding into Philadelphia. And we won a great battle, and
the laurels are on me the way they were on Caesar,
and the golden light is upon me. He loved that.
He loved the camaraderie of being with his fellow men.
(02:44):
He loved serving George Washington. But the dream was glory,
and in his imagination it all seems so wonderful and
so beautiful. You have to remember too, that if a
young boy was well educated in revolutionary times or pre
revolutionary times, he would have learned Latin. And to learn Latin,
you would have read the great writers in Latin, ancient Romans.
(03:06):
One of the greatest writers was Julia Season. So he
read all his commentaries. He knew every battle, and in
his imagination he ran it almost like a movie. Someday
I'll be a part of this glorious enterprise, and to think,
when fame and fortune, I'll go down in the annals
of my nation. But his father got him a job
as a surveyor. He said that I think if he
(03:28):
can get out in the world and survey land, that
will maybe get some of this energy off of him.
What happens, though, is the American revolution starts to get
under way, and he joins the revolutionary cause. He becomes
a member of the Pennsylvania Assembly, and he's one of
(03:51):
the very first people in the country who says it's
time to break away from Great Britain. And he says
to anyone who will listen to him, either in the
Assembly or in all the taverns outside of Philadelphia, he says,
we're a de facto republic. We don't have a king,
we don't have nobility. We are the people. We should
rule ourselves. He was on fire for the Revolution the
(04:15):
way Thomas Paine was, the way John Adams was long
before the Revolution started. And once the contin ironal army
starts to form, this childhood dream he had to be
a soldier can finally be realized, and he goes off
to George Washington's camp on Long Island in seventeen seventy six.
Again a very handsome man, beautifully dressed. His father taught
(04:37):
him to always look your part. He knew every battle
Julius Caesar ever fought. He bounced into Washington's camp. I
am here, I'm here to serve the revolution. I'm here
to serve my nation. But he knew nothing really beyond
what he had read in his ancient history books. But
when Washington met him, he said, well he's got one
thing at least in that's enthusiasm. It's interesting. The very
(05:02):
first thing George Washington gave him to do, he said, oh, well,
this man's a gentleman. How about you join us in
a fox hunt. But very quickly Wayne was given one
assignment after another, and it becomes really better and better
at it. The very first thing he was sent to do,
he was sent with the American Army to a place
called Three Rivers in Canada. Now this is June seventeen
(05:22):
seventy six, and in this Battle of Three Rivers, the
army is completely defeated. Who leads the retreat? Anthony Wayne.
He releads the retreat of the army back into New York,
and people say about him. He seems to snap to
attention immediately once the battle begins. What he remembers because
he writes to his young wife about every battle he's
(05:44):
going into, and he tells her he goes, when I
was heading to Three Rivers, the first thing I realized,
all that glory and all that wonder of childhood is gone.
I could possibly die in this horrible battle. What am
I doing this for? But once the battle begins again,
he snapped to attention. So Washington learned very quickly if
he needed somebody to help with a retreat, Wayne just
(06:06):
naturally could move an army faster, get it out of danger.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
And we're listening to doctor Mary Stockwell tell the story
of Mad Anthony Wayne, the unlikely General, and giving Well
a little more depth to the story. While as Paul
Harvey like to say, the rest of the story of
this great man, he was well a dandy. He looked
like a gentleman. But something happened to him in battle,
(06:35):
and of course he'd thought about it all of his life.
He snaps to attention when the battle begins. That could
be a kind of thing, as you could ever say
about anybody, Because some people retrench once the battle begins,
or they hide. He snaps to attention when the battle begins.
More of Mad Anthony Wayne's story here on our American story. Folks,
(07:30):
if you love the stories we tell about this great country,
and especially the stories of America's rich past, know that
all of our stories about American history, from war to innovation,
culture and faith, are brought to us by the great
folks at Hillsdale College, a place where students study all
the things that are beautiful in life and all the
things that are good in life. And if you can't
get to Hillsdale, Hillsdale will come to you with their
(07:52):
free and terrific online courses.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Go to Hillsdale dot edu to learn more.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
And we're back with our American stories and the story
of mad Anthony Wayne.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Let's return to doctor Mary Stockwell.
Speaker 3 (08:18):
After losing the Battle of Three Rivers, Anthony Wayne would
be sent to Fort ticonder Roga and hated every minute
of it. He was out of the action, but the
action would soon come.
Speaker 5 (08:30):
He goes onto the Battle of Brandywine. Now we're in
September seventeen seventy seven. Washington calls him back. This is
now a frightening time because of the British armies coming
to take the city of Philadelphia. So Washington puts all
his men along Brandywine Creek to the west, trying to
stop them. There, he puts Wayne right up on the
bluff looking over Brandywin Creek, gets him the artillery. What's
(08:52):
interesting about Wayne at this time he realizes on the
battlefield something's going wrong. Goes to Washington and said, I
don't think we're in the right position. I think the
British are not crossing where we think they're crossing. I
think they're coming north. They're going to come around Brandywine Creek.
They're going to attack us from the rear. We're going
to be surrounded. So we had an ability to figure
(09:14):
out in the midst of a battle what was happening.
George Washington made a terrible mistake. He told Wayne go
back up to that bluff. The British are crossing where
we think they're crossing. Wayne was right, count alarming, was
almost surrounded, almost destroyed, but they got out of there.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
But despite Washington's mistake at Brandywine Creek, Anthony Wayne remained
one of his greatest supporters, even though they had some
major differences.
Speaker 5 (09:39):
George Washington was the kind of person who always controlled
his emotions. Anthony Wayne was a very enthusiastic or as
hard as a sleeve. He had no sense that anybody
was greater or lesser than anyone else. He just befriended
George Washington and was much warmer to him than probably
Washington once to Wayne. Maybe the most wonderful things I've
(10:02):
discovered was well Wayne was Washington's cheerleader. Other people again.
They respected Washington, they kept him at a distance. Wayne
didn't feel that way. He felt they were friends. Before
every battle, he would write George Washington a letter saying,
you're gonna win. You're in a great position. Yes, Caesar
did it before, you can do it. You can win
(10:23):
this battle. And when it was over and Washington didn't
didn't win, he often lost the battle. Who would he
get a letter from Anthony Wayne and Wayne would say
to him, we're in a better position than we were
before he lost. We will get through this, you will
get better. And he said, I want you to be
the next Julius Caesar. He realizes very quickly he's not
(10:45):
Julius Caesar. This isn't going to be a war of
glorious battles. This is going to be a war of
attrition and staying in the field and keeping the army
in the film. And finally Wayne realizes, well, I was disappointed,
maybe up to Valley forged that he's not Julius Caesar.
But I realized this man that I love and respect
so much, my elder brother, is a new kind of leader.
(11:07):
He's a political leader, he's a moral leader. He's got
to keep the army in the field. This is what
a modern revolution looks like.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
Wayne's support for Washington would pay off and he would
work his way up the ranks in the Continental Army.
Speaker 4 (11:24):
But the war wasn't all glory.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
For Anthony Wayne, and in fact, it became anything butt
for him.
Speaker 5 (11:30):
He's remembered for three big mistakes that he made. Washington
gives him an assignment. He said, in the middle of
the night, I want you to attack the baggage train
of the British as they head east into Philadelphia. Just
get the baggage train. Wayne gets his men up on
the road into Philadelphia in between the Paoli and the
Warren Tavern. The people come to him and say the British, no,
(11:53):
you're here. Then he said, no, the British will not
do this. I am not going to listen to farmers
and children about where the British.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
Well.
Speaker 5 (12:01):
In the middle of the night, the British did strike.
It was called the Paoli Massacre. Many of his men
were killed. He got them out of there. He retreated,
which he was so good at. But if he had
listened and stopped with his dreams and what he thought
was going to happen, and listen to what was happening
to him on the ground that wouldn't have happened.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Then, on January first, seventeen eighty one, Wayne oversaw the
Pennsylvania Line mutiny, a situation that happened when countless men
tired of war threw down their weapons and threatened to
defect to the British Army. But it was a third
failure that caused the press to apply nickname to him
that had been used by his own men.
Speaker 5 (12:41):
At a place called Green Spring Plantation, He's convinced, oh, look,
there's a baggage train of Cornwallis going back to North Carolina. Well,
I'll attack it. That kind of blood either nose. He
lines his men up, and then he realizes, wait a minute,
Cornwallis's entire army is still here. What am I to do?
This man who can think so quickly on his feet
(13:03):
set for the only time in his battle, he couldn't
remember what to do because I don't know what to do.
I don't think Julius Caesar was ever in this position.
So finally he realized, at the Battle of Camden, which
had happened in South Carolina, the American Army had been
in a similar situation they attacked to surprise the enemy,
and then they retreated quickly. That's what he did. He
attacked kind of stun Cornwallis and then they retreated away
(13:27):
from Green Spring Plantation. He lost all his artillery, many
of his horses, he lost many of his men. Again,
Washington faulted him for that. And this is the first
time you see the nickname mad Anthony applied to him
in the Northern press. He had been called mad just
because of his terrible temper. He got the nickname because
(13:49):
he had a spy, a little Irish spy who would
help him. And the spy would come and go as
he pleased. Well, one night and his name was Jemmy. Jemmy,
the rover Antony ways looking for him. Where is Jemmy?
I I need information on the British and Jemmy's gone.
When Jemmy comes back to camp that night, they tell him, Anthony,
Wayne's looking for you, and he's you know, he's steaming,
he's angry. And this is where the word mad comes from.
(14:12):
The irishman said, ah, that he's mad. He's mad. The
general is mad, you know the best that I go
off and not confront him. Jemmy was never seen again,
even though Wayne told his wife, see if you can
find him. That's that's what the nickname was. But now
people say maybe he's mad, a little bit crazy and
reckless on the battlefield.
Speaker 4 (14:34):
And Wayne would soon start to despair.
Speaker 5 (14:37):
He goes through an immense transformation in the Revolution, and
he gives a record of it in his really beautiful letters.
He might start out in seventeen seventy six, this is
all glory, this is all wonderful, this is all fun.
But as he watches his men suffer without clothes, without shoes,
without food, without pay, always having to beg the political
(15:00):
leaders and the people, the populace for help, he begins
to despair over the cause of the American cause, and
it begins to wear on him. He shot before Yorktown.
That wound never heals. He becomes sick, and he goes
into depression. And his depression, he calls it, it's the
blue damsel. So come in the night. How can this
(15:23):
be happening to us? How can we be a turning
point in world history? And that people don't support us.
One of the most interesting things I discovered are his
writings after Yorktown, when the Battle of Yorktown is won.
Everyone is gloriously happy. I always think of Trumpell's beautiful
painting when everybody's lined up at Yorktown. It's so stunningly beautiful.
(15:46):
And that's not what happened. That's not what Wayne remembered.
Wayne remembered how the British had to walk with the
Hessians on this thing called the surrender. They walked out
to the surrender field. You can see it in Yorktown today.
When in the midst of all this jubilation, he never
forgot he looked across the way and they were the French,
(16:07):
and their silks and satins. They were gorgeous. And he
looked at his own men on the other side of
the road and he said, we're barefoot. Some of my
men couldn't even stand here. They couldn't even cover themselves.
Their clothes are threadbare. And that set him into a despair.
How can we be a nation that doesn't understand what's
at stake? And he begged Washington, I'm going home. It
(16:35):
suddenly dawned on him, wait a minute. I have a
little boy and a little girl. I left them as infants,
Margaretta and Isaac. I have to get an education for
Isaac and a trade. I've got to make a fine
lady out of Margaretta. I've got to get her into
school and get her married. And he says, I'm going home.
I've had it, and Washington says, no, you're going to Georgia.
You're gonna go fight with Nathaniel Green. And in a
(16:59):
terrible campaigned seventeen eighty two to seventeen eighty three that
has completely forgotten today, Wing goes south and he's given
a five hundred man army and he's told, you got
to bring peace to Georgia and make sure the government
works in Georgia remains a state. That's where he really
sinks into despair. That's where he writes to his wife,
(17:19):
who doesn't even write to him anymore, and he says this,
I'm say shit of this war, a trait of blood.
I can't, I don't want to do this anymore. But
he somehow secures Georgia.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
And you've been listening to doctor Mary Stockwell tell the
story of the unlikely General Mad Anthony Wayne. More of
this remarkable story, a soldier's story, a patriots story. Here
on our American stories, and we're back with our American
(18:09):
stories in the story of Mad Anthony Wayne, brought to
us by Mary Stockwell. When we last left off, Waine
had just successfully secured Georgia from the British and the
American Revolution was one. But Wayne could hardly celebrate the
victory he'd fought so hard to help secure. Let's continue
with the story.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
After the war, Wayne was at his lowest point. The
British were defeated, he had secured Georgia and his dreams
of an independent United States were made reality. His life
was shattered, and so was his marriage.
Speaker 5 (18:47):
Anthony Wayne was again married when he's very young to
a girl named Mary, and he called her Polly. He
had two children very quickly, a little girl, Margaratta a
little boy, Isaac. There were only about four too when
he goes off to Philadelphia. It appeared to be a
happy marriage. But as the war goes on and he
(19:08):
is becomes a famous general, women begin to flock to him,
and in the beginning he has flirtations with women, but
as time goes on he has actual romances with women.
He falls madly in love with Nathaniel Greene's wife, Katherine
green She was a beauty, She had a temperament like him,
(19:28):
kind of witty, sarcastic, love to dance, but also a
tendency to despair. He was so close to Katherine Green.
People would tell Nathaniel Green this great general, you better
watch it. Your wife and your best friend. Something's going on,
and you say, no, they're not crossing the line. But
she was the love of his life, absolute love of
his life. News of this starts to come back to
(19:51):
Missus Wayne, and for a while she kind of pushes
it aside. These stories can't be true. But a point
finally comes when she realizes I've lost him. It's the
way say you're a movie star, a rock star, and
you go off and you have this adulation even in
the midst of suffering, and you forget your family. The
(20:15):
real break for missus Wayne comes at Yorktown. Wayne has
come home after so many battles. He says, I'm gonna
come home. The war is over. I can't do this anymore.
And when he goes off to Yorktown and then he
has to go off to Georgia, there's a break there
and she never quite forgives him, and they never quite
restore the relationship, but he never stops writing to her.
(20:38):
He writes to her like he does to Washington before
every battle. He writes to her after every battle. He
doesn't ask her about herself. But it would have driven
me nuts if I was missus Wayne. But he pours
out maybe his best writing to this love of his,
of his youth, and he tells her about the transformation
he's passing through, and that he doesn't don't like war anymore.
(21:01):
He doesn't want glory, and he's losing so much.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
Weien also had a hard time settling down after so
many years of bloody conflict.
Speaker 5 (21:11):
After the Revolution. He can't go home again. I don't
know if you've ever seen the movie The Best Years
of Our Lives about men who come back from World
War Two. But my father was in World War Two
and he used to say, watch that movie. It's hard
to be in this thick of battle and then to
come home and do normal things. He tries to come home,
he can't settle down. Georgia has given him a plantation
(21:35):
outside of Savannah for his services in the war. He
goes down there. He's convinced I'm going to become this
great planter. It's a disaster. He ends up in total debt.
His depression grows greater and greater and greater. He drinks heavily.
He's sick. He has the gout. On most mornings. He
(21:55):
can't even stand. He has to wrap his arms and
legs and flannel. His body is really suffering. But he
tells his wife, I'm really doing this for you and
the children. I'm trying to make money. I think he
was doing it just because he couldn't give up the struggle.
After the war was over, he goes so far into
debt by about seventeen ninety seventeen ninety one, he almost
sells off his family's farm and leaves his family homeless
(22:19):
in Pennsylvania. His friends are stunned. They're saying, Wayne, you've
lost your mind. Come back to Pennsylvania. Stop this. He
finally is facing Debtor's prison. He's so afraid he's going
to go into Debtor's prison. His children no, He's lost
his relationship with his children, and he decides, you know,
if I run for office, I think you get immunity
(22:40):
from prison. So in seventeen ninety one, he runs for
the House of Representatives from Georgia. He gets elected, he
gets to Congress. He sits in Congress. He says, I'm safe,
I paid my debts, I sold my southern plantation. Everything's great.
And the man he defeated shows up in Philadelphia, comes
to Congress and said Wayne's supporters stuffed ballot boxes to
(23:03):
get him elected. He didn't know about it, but it
was corrupt. And Wayne is thrown out of Congress. And
he has just been humiliated by being thrown out of Congress.
So by the early seventeen nineties, when George Washington as president,
Wayne is quite a scandalous man.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
But nevertheless, the United States was in a predicament. In
the West. We were having massive issues with fighting the Indians,
and Washington needed a general.
Speaker 5 (23:30):
Washington has a plan to move us west. And can
you imagine if we hadn't moved across the Appalachians, if
we hadn't crossed the Ohio, if we hadn't gotten all
the way out to the Mississippi River, we would have
been thirteen little states, you know, dying on the vine.
Washington has this plan where I'll negotiate with the Indians.
I'll respect them, I'll buy their land, I'll pay them
(23:51):
money and goods every year, and they'll slowly allow the
Americans to cross the Ohio River. They signed treaties to
do that, but then they confederated with the help of
the British. They were led by little Turtle bluejacket. Great
chiefs like that. They just say if Washington, if you
cross the Yohio River, it'll run red with the blood
of your young men. Washington keeps negotiating, but one army
(24:13):
is destroyed, and seventeen ninety under Harmer November seventeen ninety one,
a second army is destroyed under Arthur Saint Clair. At
this very moment, Wayne is just thrown out of Congress
and George Washington has to find a general. He's desperate.
What he does is he gets a list of all
the people who had been generals through the American Revolution.
(24:35):
Looks down the list. Oh my lord, he said, I
need somebody active, brave, and so where that. These men
are all old, sick and tired. He sees everybody, and
he criticizes everybody. He looks at Wayne. He doesn't. He's
worried about Wayne. Yes he's active, Yes he's enterprising, but
oh maybe he doesn't always have the best judgment. I
(24:57):
don't know if I can send this man westward. WILLI
will there be a mutiny? Will he spend too much money?
When I've got you know, I've got James Madison breathing
down my neck about my expenditures. Should I choose him?
He remembers his mistakes, He forgets everything he did. He
tells his cabinet, I'm thinking about Wayne, and they explode.
(25:18):
It's Knocks at War, it's Jefferson at State, it's Hamilton
at Treasure. They go, you can't pick this man too.
He's to scandalousy. He's just just please don't do it.
But Washington has to look back. What about Wayne? Does
he know? Nobody else knows? Well? He knows that Wayne
thinks he's perfection. He knows that Wayne is devoted to him.
(25:40):
He remembers that that if I pick him, he'll fight
with me. He'll stay with me, he won't turn on me.
He remembers those letters. Washington remembers how before every battle
he'd get this great letter, you can do it. Afterward
he would write the we'll still win, probably the last
two things in his favor from Pennsylvania. Washington didn't want
(26:02):
to appear as if the West belonged to Virginia. He
kept appointing generals from Pennsylvania to go fight the Indians
were necessary and the last thing Wayne wanted the job.
Wayne had been writing to politicians since seventeen eighty nine.
When the Constitution is approved, I'll do anything. What do
you want me to do? I will help America. If
(26:23):
there's something I can do to help my country, let
me do it. And Wayne, and Washington says, I'm taking
a chance on Anthony Wayne. And again when he does,
he has to appoint him in seventeen ninety two to
command this new army in the West. And people write
to him like, how can you appoint this man with
all these scandals and all this, And Washington says, I
(26:46):
he's got to overcome his foibles. But Wayne also understands
the seriousness of the situation and he'll live up to it.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
And you're listening to doctor Mary Stock will tell one
heck of a story about a complicated man. More of
this remarkable story, Mad Anthony Wayne's story here on our
American Stories. And we're back with our American Stories and
(27:40):
the story of Mad Anthony Wayne. When we last left off,
George Washington, Wayne's old boss had taken a massive bet
on him, against the advice of his cabinet, and Wayne
was sent west to fight the Indians. Let's continue the story.
Speaker 5 (27:56):
He remembered the French and Indian wars, little boy, and
he knew they were exciting tales of warfare over the mountains.
His father fought no French and Indian war. But he
has no experience with Indians except women. Up at Fort Taekondroga,
he sees the Indian women who come into the fort,
often as mistresses of the soldiers. But no experience fighting anybody.
(28:21):
No experience until he gets to Georgia. When he gets
to Georgia and he has to deal with the Creek
Indians who have seen their trade disrupted because he's now
breaking their tie with the British and Savannah. He writes
speeches to them. They're almost embarrassing to read. You know,
he has no idea who he's talking to. That he's
talking to real people who are traders, who are involved
(28:43):
in the British economy. He tells the Indians, your simple
children of the forest. You know, you stay over there
and hunt your deer. Let the white man over here
fight our battles, and we'll be friends when the war's over.
His camp is ambushed in seventeen eighty three, he comes
close to being That kind of wakes him up. You know,
these are real people. They are deeply involved with the
(29:06):
world economy, They're deeply involved with diplomacy. They're great fighters,
and he gains a respect for the Indians almost overnight.
He talks to anybody who's been out west, and he says,
I Am going to learn how they fight, and I'm
going to show them the respect they deserve. These are
not savages. These are the top soldiers. They know this
(29:27):
continent better than we do. My God, I'm going to
have to train my army to be as good as them.
An absolute terror. When he leaves Philadelphia in the spring
of seventeen ninety two, he writes his last will and testament.
He goes, I'm not coming back from this alive. The
power on the North American continent in the seventeen nineties
not the United States We're weak. The power the Great
(29:49):
Confederation nations out west, the Shawnee, the Delaware, and the
British who are on American soil arming and supporting them.
The British wanted us defeated in the West, so he
comes west with immense respect, and he's got to teach
his men how to respect the Indians more than anything else.
He discovers, I gotta find ways to teach them not
(30:11):
to be afraid because my men are terrifying. Let's say
that you're going up against the British. That's frightening. You
line up the Continental Army on one side, the British
line up on the other, and they keep coming after you,
and waves and waves and waves. Wayne says, that's frightening enough.
He said, the difference is if you're going into the wilderness,
(30:32):
you've got to train your army and have them so
perfectly trained because as you're marching, probably hoping for a
confrontation or afraid of a confrontation with them, he said,
they're tracking you, but you'll never see them. You'll never
see them until the moment they strike. And he said
when they line up, they will line up not like savy.
(30:52):
They're going to line up against you, and they will
command the place, the time the battle. If you don't
immediately get into position and don't immediately throw back their
first assault, you're going to be surrounded, you're going to
be defeated, and there's no quarter it's not like you're
going to be a prisoner of the British and set
(31:15):
off to a prison ship. You will be killed, and
you will be killed in some horrifying ways.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
And the hard training would work for Wayne, and luckily so,
because negotiations would break down and he would once again
be forced to fight.
Speaker 5 (31:33):
He gets command of the army. There is no army.
It's been wiped out in November seventeen ninety one, and
Washington tells him, you're the commander of this new thing.
We're going to call it the Legion of the United States.
Get out first to Pittsburgh. He'll later be sent to Cincinnati,
and then it'll be sent up to a place called Greenville,
where he build this big fort. They promise him five
(31:55):
thousand men. He never gets more than about one thousand men.
And they said, the men so perfectly that if we
call you into battle, you will defeat them. But don't
scare the Indians because the negotiations are ongoing, So don't
appear too aggressive. If we do tell you the negotiations
have broke down and you must fight, then you will fight.
(32:15):
And Wayne does what he's told. He said, I can
train the men to march. I can train them to
follow orders, I can train them to shoot. They can't shoot.
But he said, the thing that I'm really struggling with,
they're so terrified. In the very first Indian attack, he
lines his men up and he says, Okay, I'm gonna
go up on the ramparts, check for the Indians, and
(32:37):
then I'm gonna come back and we'll be ready to fight.
Indians aren't there. When he turns around to go back
to his men, they've all fled. They've completely fled. They
don't want to fight. He he had to do this
a few times when he was training his men, when
they were so terrified. He said, all right, line everybody up,
gets on his horse, goes back and forth in front
(32:58):
of his men. This army put together, He said, if
the battle begins and the riflemen up at the front run,
I'm going to order the dragoons behind them to shoot
the riflemen. If the dragoons run, then the light infantry
behind them shoot the dragoons. If everybody runs, I'm going
to turn my own artillery on you guys. What he
(33:20):
wanted them to be was more afraid of him than
the enemy. And he also said, if we all run,
we all die, because there's no quarter in Indian warfare.
After two years of training his men, Washington tells Knox
to tel Wayne, the negotiations are done. Start taking that
(33:44):
thousand men army. Call up the Kentucky militia, the mounted riflemen.
Start marching north. Go up the Mamie River towards Lake Erie.
The British have just built an illegal fort there in
seventeen ninety four. It's south of Detroit Arming. They're directing
the Indians there. You're probably going to meet the Indians
(34:06):
and the British and the Canadian militia somewhere between Greenville
and what is now the city of Toledo, Ohio. Just
start marching. You must defeat them, and when you defeat them,
you gotta get a treaty. It's a nerve wracking march.
And it's finally August the nineteenth. No Indians have attack
them and they begin the final march on the morning
(34:28):
of August the twentieth. The night before this, there's been
a terrible rainstorm and all of the drums have lost
their you know, their ability to pound. They're all loosened
in the rain, and Wayne is like, I've trained you
guys for two years to march to my orders and
to line up in battle in a line against the Indians.
(34:49):
Based on these He calls this young lieutenant who has
been he's taken liking to and he puts a green
sash around him and he says, if the comes tomorrow,
you have to ride back and forth through the lines
with my orders. And that young man with the green
sash is William Henry Harrison. The shots ring out against
(35:11):
Wayne's men. Wayne's men run in terror, and suddenly within
five minutes Wayne has them in perfect order. Everybody lines
up in these huge, two huge parallel lines against the Indians.
They're fighting over trees that were down. The battle goes
on for about maybe an hour. Indians attack on the right,
(35:31):
the attack on the left. They come up the center.
The eye witnesses of the Indians who are in the
battle are amazing.
Speaker 4 (35:39):
They go, he didn't fold.
Speaker 5 (35:41):
They held their line, and they said, suddenly we heard
Wayne's trumpets, and here's trumpets on the left, the right,
the center. He's coming after us. He's surrounding us, and
they flee the field. They run back about three or
four miles to this illegal British fort and the British
and then they close the gates and the faces of
these Indians and they said, we don't know you, and
(36:03):
we didn't have anything to do with this battle. And
then the Indians have to flee with their families back
to wherever they'd come. It's we now call it the
Battle of Fallen Timbers. Wayne called it the Battle of
the Rapids. He said, I remember when we got up
to the rapids of the river Bang, the Indian line
was formed against us. It was classic Brandywine, classic German town.
(36:27):
They were lined up to fight us, and we were ready.
We didn't fold my men. He was stunned. He never
recovered from this victory. He goes, I think I want
a victory. It was again, this is the battle that
has all the monuments out here, but nobody knows who
Wayn was. What he was fighting about. He's fighting to
(36:48):
allow Americans to sell north of the Ohio. It takes
a year from the Indians to finally come in and
write a treaty. They come in a year later, they
write the Treaty of Greenville, and they say, all right,
you can settle north of the Ohio. We'll move back
towards the lakes. We will allie with each other, we'll
trade with each other. And the British also signed Jay's treaty,
(37:11):
and they say we leave, we leave, We're going back
to Canada. It's in the end a great victory. What
Wayne has really one. It is about maybe ten years
of peace seventeen ninety five to eighteen oh five, to
allow Americas to grow wester, to become stronger and really
win the country from the Appalachians to the Mississippi. When
(37:33):
if for real, that's the military side of things, that's
the battle that Anthony Wayne wins. But he almost never,
for the few remaining months of his life, could hardly
believe that he actually trained an army, that they stood
in fight and they won and defeated this powerful enemy.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
And great work on that mante and a special thanks
to doctor Mary Stockwell, author of Unlikely General Mad Anthony
Wayne in the Battle for America, The Story of Mad
Anthony Wayne.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
Here on our American Stories
Host
Lee Habeeb
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