May 16, 2024 • 9 mins
On this episode of Our American Stories, the lore and legend of the American Mountain Man is a story that seems to only grow with time. In 2015, Leonardo DiCaprio played the legendary Mountain Man, Hugh Glass in The Revenant. And in 1972, Robert Redford starred as the title character in Jeremiah Johnson. And like Hugh Glass, Johnson too was a real-life fur trapper. Here to separate fact from fiction is Ashley Hlebinsky.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
And we continue with our American stories. The lore and
legend of the American mountain Man is a story that
only seems to grow with time. In twenty fifteen, Leonardo
DiCaprio played the legendary mountain man Hugh Glass in the Revenant.
In nineteen seventy two, Robert Redford starred as the title
(00:30):
character in Jeremiah Johnson. Here to separate fact from fiction
is Ashley Lebinski. Ashley is the former co host of
Discovery Channel's Master of Arms, the former curator in charge
of the Cody Firearms Museum, and she's president of the
Gun Code LLC.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Hears.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Ashley I used to run this very large museum in
the American West, and on display at that museum there
was a firearm called a hack and rifle and a
booie knife with a sheath. And these two things belonged
to a man named Liver eating Johnson, although that was
(01:14):
not really his name.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
His name was John Johnston with a T.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
But he also at some points in his life went
by John Garrison, John Johnson with no tea because spelling
standardization wasn't a thing in the eighteen hundreds, Jack Johnson,
and then by his prolific mythic name liver Eating Johnson,
and a lot of people who'd come to the museum
would also call him Jeremiah Johnson.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
And the reason behind that.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
Was because of a movie that was starring Robert Redford
called Jeremiah Johnson in nineteen seventy two. And so basically,
you've got the man, you've got his artifacts, and then
you've got a whole host of nonsense somewhere in the
middle in order to kind of understand who he was
and why people are so obsessed with him even today.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Now, part of that really plays.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Into people's fascination with the American West, especially the early
American West. So before trains, before mass migration out west,
you know these rugged.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Men, kind of scary looking.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Men a little bit that would go out west and
they were basically mapping the terrain. But then they were
also hunting, trapping, trading with Native Americans. And all of
those people that went out there had very kind of
iconic stories.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
One of them is Hugh Glass, who you.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Know, was attacked by a bear and then abandoned by
his people and basically had to drag himself to afford
So all of these stories are just larger than life.
So it makes perfect sense that liver eating Johnson's story
is no different and because of the movie, because of
a novel by Vartis Fisher called Mountain Man, his life
is just larger than life.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
Actually, so here's a few things we do know about
him that are true.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
So he was born John Garrison, but he did change
his name to John Johnston at some point, and like
I said, his name appeared in newspapers and records as
John Johnson without the tea with that again is because
it didn't have spell check on and their newspaper reports.
So he actually was born in eighteen twenty four and
(03:25):
he lived in Little York, New Jersey. And kind of
like the start of a lot of stories about, you know,
rugged violent men.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Is that he grew up in a very violent home.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
And so he was one of six siblings, and he
had an alcoholic father who really kind of beat up
on him, and so it kind of starts that beginning
to understanding his life.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
He stood at six feet tall, he was over two.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
Hundred pounds, so just this really impressive looking person. But
this idea of his violent nature is also what kind
of fuels.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
This mythology behind who he is, and.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
A lot of that comes from an academic book that
was written in the middle of the twentieth century called
Crow Killer, and the book is fascinating.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
I highly recommend the read.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
However, it's based almost exclusively in oral tradition, and oral
tradition was a huge part of Native American customs, the
mountain Man custom when you were moving out west, and
so it's understandable you're sitting around the campfire, you're telling stories,
and one of the stories that was told was about
liver eating Johnson. And this story was passed down and
(04:35):
it begins in eighteen forty seven. The previous winner, John Johnston,
was living out west and he married a flathead Indian
woman and right after their nuptials, he was called away
to go do work and he left her at their
cabin and when he returned in May of eighteen forty seven,
he found her murdered by the Crow Indians. So the
(04:57):
story goes he declared war on the cronation and that
he single handedly killed dozens of Crow warriors and ultimately
he was attacked by a Blackfoot.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Chief the wolf and several of his men, And this
story gets so weird.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
So they capture him, and it says that he was
able to chew through his leather cuffs that they shackled
him with, and he attacked a guard with a kick
and blow to the face, and that he cut off
that man's leg and ate it as he kind of
made his grand escape and got back to safety, and
(05:33):
that he continued to kill these Crow warriors until eighteen
sixty eight he was tired of fighting and he rode
into the camp of Crow chief Gray Bear, which would
blossom into a lifelong friendship.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
So this is part of that story. The other part
of that story is the liver eating part.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
So if you believe the part about the eating a leg,
I mean, I guess it doesn't sound totally crazy.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
That he would be eating livers.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
But this story basically said that he was carving out
the livers of his foes, so the Crow warriors, and
eating them. And part of that story, if I understand
it correctly, is that to the Crow nation, you know,
the liver was considered the way to pass on to
the afterlife, so in a sense, he was eating their souls.
But this story kind of kept going and growing bigger
(06:20):
and bigger, passed on by different tribal nations passed on
by different mountain men, and then you know, basically immortalized
in this academic book that then became a novel, became
a movie, and here we are. The interesting part of this, though,
is there is primary source documentation from this time period
that don't put him in the West in eighteen forty seven.
(06:42):
They actually put him in the Mexican American War around
this time, and his obituary actually in the Carbon County Democrat,
states that he went to shore for leave and never
came back after violently attacking a lieutenant in his command.
But a military pension that Johnson claims in eighteen eighty four,
so that he was.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
In navy until the eighteen sixties.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
The primary source documentation implies that he always had a
great relationship with the coronation, and in fact he had
issues and declared war on the Blackfeet and the Sioux,
which does kind of follow the trajectory of a lot
of mountain Man history. The Blackfeet and the mountain Man
really didn't get along. And the piece about the liver,
(07:22):
actually there's some reports that say that that was a
joke that he started. And I guess be careful things
you joke about because it becomes basically like a game
of telephone when you pass on oral histories.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
So if you don't want to believe that he was,
you know, in.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
The West and they you know, until the eighteen sixties,
or even if you want to believe that he was
out there earlier, because I will say.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
When I was running the museum.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
Nobody cared when I corrected the story.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
They still wanted to know the story as they, you.
Speaker 3 (07:51):
Know, saw it when they watched the movie. But there
are some things that we know after that time period.
So he moved out west in the eighteen sixties, and.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
He was a deputy sheriff in Montana.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
So he spent some time in Colson, Montana, and then
he moved to Red Lodge, Montana, and he did fight
in the Plains Indian Wars. But he stayed there until
eighteen ninety nine when he was admitted to the Santa
Monica National Soldier's Home. And he died on January twenty first,
nineteen hundred, so right at the turn of the twentieth century,
which is actually pretty late when you consider the Mountain
(08:26):
Man era. By that point you're getting a much more
modern America. The Transcontinental Railroad, you know, is put into place.
People are living out in the American West, so it's
kind of, you know, this bygone era that he's now
passing away. And you know, things really change as you
get into the twentieth century. After the Robert Redford became
out in nineteen seventy two, Jeremiah Johnson, Robert Redford actually
(08:50):
had his body removed and moved to Cody, Wyoming. And
I don't know why Cody, but I mean there's a
lot of Western stuff in Cody. So so you're planning
on visiting his grave. He's not in California anymore. You
can go to this small town of nine thousand people
and there's this repurposed ghost town of old buildings that
were from all over the West that they've kind of
(09:11):
put together so you can go and see them all
in one place. And if you walk about twenty yards
out of that little ghost town, you can.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
Go and visit his grave.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
And a lot of people go because of Robert Redford
as well.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
And a terrific job on the production and editing by
Greg Hangler and a special thanks to Ashley Lebinski. And
by the way, Ashley's done some terrific storytelling for us,
and that includes Annie Oakley, Eli Whitney, The Story of
the Cult Revolver, and Sarah Winchester. Go to Ouramerican Stories
dot com and take a listen. We're very grateful to
(09:46):
have her as a regular contributor here on our American Stories.
The story, the Myth and the Facts of Mountain Man
Jeremiah Johnson here on our American Stories
And we continue with our American stories. The lore and
legend of the American mountain Man is a story that
only seems to grow with time. In twenty fifteen, Leonardo
DiCaprio played the legendary mountain man Hugh Glass in the Revenant.
In nineteen seventy two, Robert Redford starred as the title
(00:30):
character in Jeremiah Johnson. Here to separate fact from fiction
is Ashley Lebinski. Ashley is the former co host of
Discovery Channel's Master of Arms, the former curator in charge
of the Cody Firearms Museum, and she's president of the
Gun Code LLC.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Hears.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Ashley I used to run this very large museum in
the American West, and on display at that museum there
was a firearm called a hack and rifle and a
booie knife with a sheath. And these two things belonged
to a man named Liver eating Johnson, although that was
(01:14):
not really his name.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
His name was John Johnston with a T.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
But he also at some points in his life went
by John Garrison, John Johnson with no tea because spelling
standardization wasn't a thing in the eighteen hundreds, Jack Johnson,
and then by his prolific mythic name liver Eating Johnson,
and a lot of people who'd come to the museum
would also call him Jeremiah Johnson.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
And the reason behind that.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
Was because of a movie that was starring Robert Redford
called Jeremiah Johnson in nineteen seventy two. And so basically,
you've got the man, you've got his artifacts, and then
you've got a whole host of nonsense somewhere in the
middle in order to kind of understand who he was
and why people are so obsessed with him even today.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Now, part of that really plays.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Into people's fascination with the American West, especially the early
American West. So before trains, before mass migration out west,
you know these rugged.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Men, kind of scary looking.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Men a little bit that would go out west and
they were basically mapping the terrain. But then they were
also hunting, trapping, trading with Native Americans. And all of
those people that went out there had very kind of
iconic stories.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
One of them is Hugh Glass, who you.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Know, was attacked by a bear and then abandoned by
his people and basically had to drag himself to afford
So all of these stories are just larger than life.
So it makes perfect sense that liver eating Johnson's story
is no different and because of the movie, because of
a novel by Vartis Fisher called Mountain Man, his life
is just larger than life.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
Actually, so here's a few things we do know about
him that are true.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
So he was born John Garrison, but he did change
his name to John Johnston at some point, and like
I said, his name appeared in newspapers and records as
John Johnson without the tea with that again is because
it didn't have spell check on and their newspaper reports.
So he actually was born in eighteen twenty four and
(03:25):
he lived in Little York, New Jersey. And kind of
like the start of a lot of stories about, you know,
rugged violent men.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Is that he grew up in a very violent home.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
And so he was one of six siblings, and he
had an alcoholic father who really kind of beat up
on him, and so it kind of starts that beginning
to understanding his life.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
He stood at six feet tall, he was over two.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
Hundred pounds, so just this really impressive looking person. But
this idea of his violent nature is also what kind
of fuels.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
This mythology behind who he is, and.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
A lot of that comes from an academic book that
was written in the middle of the twentieth century called
Crow Killer, and the book is fascinating.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
I highly recommend the read.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
However, it's based almost exclusively in oral tradition, and oral
tradition was a huge part of Native American customs, the
mountain Man custom when you were moving out west, and
so it's understandable you're sitting around the campfire, you're telling stories,
and one of the stories that was told was about
liver eating Johnson. And this story was passed down and
(04:35):
it begins in eighteen forty seven. The previous winner, John Johnston,
was living out west and he married a flathead Indian
woman and right after their nuptials, he was called away
to go do work and he left her at their
cabin and when he returned in May of eighteen forty seven,
he found her murdered by the Crow Indians. So the
(04:57):
story goes he declared war on the cronation and that
he single handedly killed dozens of Crow warriors and ultimately
he was attacked by a Blackfoot.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Chief the wolf and several of his men, And this
story gets so weird.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
So they capture him, and it says that he was
able to chew through his leather cuffs that they shackled
him with, and he attacked a guard with a kick
and blow to the face, and that he cut off
that man's leg and ate it as he kind of
made his grand escape and got back to safety, and
(05:33):
that he continued to kill these Crow warriors until eighteen
sixty eight he was tired of fighting and he rode
into the camp of Crow chief Gray Bear, which would
blossom into a lifelong friendship.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
So this is part of that story. The other part
of that story is the liver eating part.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
So if you believe the part about the eating a leg,
I mean, I guess it doesn't sound totally crazy.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
That he would be eating livers.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
But this story basically said that he was carving out
the livers of his foes, so the Crow warriors, and
eating them. And part of that story, if I understand
it correctly, is that to the Crow nation, you know,
the liver was considered the way to pass on to
the afterlife, so in a sense, he was eating their souls.
But this story kind of kept going and growing bigger
(06:20):
and bigger, passed on by different tribal nations passed on
by different mountain men, and then you know, basically immortalized
in this academic book that then became a novel, became
a movie, and here we are. The interesting part of this, though,
is there is primary source documentation from this time period
that don't put him in the West in eighteen forty seven.
(06:42):
They actually put him in the Mexican American War around
this time, and his obituary actually in the Carbon County Democrat,
states that he went to shore for leave and never
came back after violently attacking a lieutenant in his command.
But a military pension that Johnson claims in eighteen eighty four,
so that he was.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
In navy until the eighteen sixties.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
The primary source documentation implies that he always had a
great relationship with the coronation, and in fact he had
issues and declared war on the Blackfeet and the Sioux,
which does kind of follow the trajectory of a lot
of mountain Man history. The Blackfeet and the mountain Man
really didn't get along. And the piece about the liver,
(07:22):
actually there's some reports that say that that was a
joke that he started. And I guess be careful things
you joke about because it becomes basically like a game
of telephone when you pass on oral histories.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
So if you don't want to believe that he was,
you know, in.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
The West and they you know, until the eighteen sixties,
or even if you want to believe that he was
out there earlier, because I will say.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
When I was running the museum.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
Nobody cared when I corrected the story.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
They still wanted to know the story as they, you.
Speaker 3 (07:51):
Know, saw it when they watched the movie. But there
are some things that we know after that time period.
So he moved out west in the eighteen sixties, and.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
He was a deputy sheriff in Montana.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
So he spent some time in Colson, Montana, and then
he moved to Red Lodge, Montana, and he did fight
in the Plains Indian Wars. But he stayed there until
eighteen ninety nine when he was admitted to the Santa
Monica National Soldier's Home. And he died on January twenty first,
nineteen hundred, so right at the turn of the twentieth century,
which is actually pretty late when you consider the Mountain
(08:26):
Man era. By that point you're getting a much more
modern America. The Transcontinental Railroad, you know, is put into place.
People are living out in the American West, so it's
kind of, you know, this bygone era that he's now
passing away. And you know, things really change as you
get into the twentieth century. After the Robert Redford became
out in nineteen seventy two, Jeremiah Johnson, Robert Redford actually
(08:50):
had his body removed and moved to Cody, Wyoming. And
I don't know why Cody, but I mean there's a
lot of Western stuff in Cody. So so you're planning
on visiting his grave. He's not in California anymore. You
can go to this small town of nine thousand people
and there's this repurposed ghost town of old buildings that
were from all over the West that they've kind of
(09:11):
put together so you can go and see them all
in one place. And if you walk about twenty yards
out of that little ghost town, you can.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
Go and visit his grave.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
And a lot of people go because of Robert Redford
as well.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
And a terrific job on the production and editing by
Greg Hangler and a special thanks to Ashley Lebinski. And
by the way, Ashley's done some terrific storytelling for us,
and that includes Annie Oakley, Eli Whitney, The Story of
the Cult Revolver, and Sarah Winchester. Go to Ouramerican Stories
dot com and take a listen. We're very grateful to
(09:46):
have her as a regular contributor here on our American Stories.
The story, the Myth and the Facts of Mountain Man
Jeremiah Johnson here on our American Stories
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