May 31, 2021 • 51 mins
What can we do for those who have done everything for us? For this podcast, in honor of Memorial Day, Gianno looks at how we can help veterans and their families. Mental health, homelessness, unemployment — too many of those who have served this country are suffering and need our help. So, what can we do? To answer that question, Gianno has a conversation with the brilliant Rev. Dr. Oluwatoyin Hines, a PhD and professional counselor who has more than 20 years of military service and recently retired from the Illinois National Guard as a brigade chaplain. Plus, she's Gianno's cousin!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Up next out Wow, what Jo called part of the gang?
Which switch? What can we do for those who have
done everything for us? I'm talking about veterans, jobs, mental health, homelessness. Too.
Many of those who have served this country are suffering
and need our help. So what can we do? The answer?
(00:23):
So much and there's no time to waste. This is
out Allowed with Gianno called me. Welcome back to Allow
with Gianno called well and Honora Memorial Day. I've got
a very special show for you guys this week that
I'm really looking forward to. My guests today is a
(00:45):
relative of mine, someone who I talked to in my
time and need is specially My guest is Dr Olamenttoyan Hines,
the owner of Peace Amount Counseling, Coaching and Consulting. A
licensed professional counselor alone. Towyan has more than twenty years
of military service and recently retired from the Illinois National
Guard as a brigade chaplain. On top of that, she
(01:08):
also happens to be my cousin. As I mentioned earlier,
Olaetwyan has so many interesting ideas and powerful insights into
how we can better help those who have done so
much for us. Veterans and their families. We're going to
discuss what can be done in terms of jobs, mental health, homelessness,
and so much more. This episode means a lot to
(01:29):
me and I hope you will tune in. And now
I want to welcome Reverend Dr Ola Antoyan Hines. Thank
you so much for joining me on out lot with
Gianno Calldwell. Thank you for having me appreciate it absolutely so.
You are my cousin, but you're more like my sister
than my cousins, So so we got a really strong
relationship and I'm very thankful. Before we discuss how to
(01:54):
help veterans and some other issues, why don't you tell
our listeners a bit about yourself. What's your background and
how did you come into military service. Well, I just
retired in September from the military after twenty six years.
I enlisted as a private and worked my way through
(02:14):
Enlisted Officers Candidate School became a military chaplain. So when
I retired, I retired at the rank of major as
a brigade chaplain. In addition, I am an educator and
faith community as well as a minister, and I'm also
a licensed clinical professional counselor serving veterans and their families. Amen,
(02:37):
not as beautiful. And I know the governor of Illinois,
the former governor, he created a position for you to
lead the Illinois National Guard. Is that right? Well, it wasn't.
That wasn't the position to lead. It was. There were
a couple of positions that were offered at the duty
operational support. One was the Wounded Warrior Project or Wounded
(03:01):
Warrior Ministry Project, not to be confused with the Wounded
Warrior Project, the formal organization. It was the Wounded Warrior
Ministry Project, and that program was intended to visit ill,
injured and wounded service members across the United States from
the Illinois Army National Guards. So we had service members
(03:21):
who deployed could not come back home for a multitude
of reasons, and it was my responsibility to provide a
pastoral spiritual care to those service members, checking with their families.
Um I also served as family Life chaplain for the
Illinois Army National Guard and providing training, two chaplains, and
(03:44):
some important counseling spiritual counseling to service members and their families. Wow, now,
if you would indulge us a little bit on how
old were you when you joined the service, and what
gave that desire to join, because it's it's a big commitment,
and it's a life commitment for so many people who joined.
I joined the military when I was nineteen years old.
(04:06):
I was already in college my freshman year, and I
came home um for summer break. And I will tell
this very quick story. I was up for three o'clock
in the morning. I couldn't sleep, and there was an
at that came on for the Joint the National Guard.
So at three o'clock in the morning, I called the recruiter. Um,
(04:29):
I believe he did answer. And to this day, this
recruited I I was still acquainted. In fact, he attended
my retirement ceremony vertically. And I made the choice to
join the military. And I was longing for something more
disciplined in my life. My family background, as you know,
(04:51):
lends itself to a lot of pathology and just kind
of disproportionate. Um, how do I say this? Social opportunities,
professional opportunities, and I wanted to create space for myself
while I had more opportunities, and joining the military provided
payment for college to receive some funds, and um, what
(05:15):
came out of that for me also was a great
deal of leadership, learn a lot more about myself. It
cultivated me into the person that I am today. A
lot of my personality, my person who stems from the
lessons I've learned in the military throughout. So that story
and three o'clock in the morning and calling the recruiter
summer of my freshman year, going into my sophomore year,
(05:38):
and the following year actually in that June I enlisted,
and the following January I was off to basic training.
Now you have more than twenty years in military service
under your belt. What was military service like? Was it
something that you were very concerned because I know a
lot of times, especially in families like ours, people are
(06:00):
concerned about sending their loved ones out and the possibility
that something could happen to them while they're serving. How
was that service experience like for you? It depends on
the period of of life or season of my military
career that I was in. While enlisted, it was a
(06:23):
very different experience. I was in college, so I was
commuting from your vine, Urbana to Chicago for military training
once a month. In addition to being a college student.
Now at the time I was administration for my unit,
and so the responsibilities weren't so intense um as they
(06:48):
had become later. However, it was the time away from
a college students routine. So there was this duality of worlds,
one as a soldier and then the other as a student.
Then I decided I'll become an officer, and so here
I am still in school um in undergrad and going
(07:10):
away for officers training and prepering to become an officer,
and the intensity of or demand on service was different.
There were lots of expectations around leadership, some of which
I had not been exposed to. I began to learn
more about war in combat from a from not from
an administrative lens. Now we're talking about strategy and operation
(07:34):
and how as an officer the expectation to function in
those conditions and states. And then there was the part
when I did become an officer and the mentality of
switching from being enlisted to being an officer, the expectation
of demands, and I was a chaplain. What was unique
(07:55):
to my chaplain cy is that I was the first
female chaplain candidate in the d National Guard Army National
Guard and the first female chap chaplain, first female chaplain candidate,
and there was this nuance that one people had not
been exposed to women chaplains, and there was the cultural
component impacted by that. So they're they're all these Uh,
(08:20):
so my dualities became more quadrupled here. I am still
a student, I'm now a soldier and officer, and I
am a chaplain and I'm also a woman, and I'm
also African American. And so throughout my career I dealt
(08:40):
with barriers and I will and I had to create
I had to work hard to create spaces for myself
to prove um not myself to people, but my my presence,
my presence in those spaces, and so I worked really
(09:00):
hard to accomplish and and my passion and taking care
of service members and families has always that's that's my value,
that's my intrinsic value. So that remained, and yet I
was dealing with these external forces that sometimes made that
value complex. Now that's interesting, and uh, for everybody that's listening,
(09:24):
they can tell you're clearly a super smart person. I
love your word usage of you know, you talk about barriers,
and so often people deal with barriers in life and
in multiple ways. But when you're thinking about military services,
certainly an entirely different ball game than what I may
experiences someone who's never been a part of that life.
(09:47):
Would you mind sharing a little bit about what those
barriers might have been or how did you you handle them,
because it's, as you mentioned, it's very complex situation. I
there were, but there are so many narratives to tell,
and I and I will I will point to the
ones that have been turning points for my way of
(10:09):
being and thinking. I recall as a Chaplin candidate and
having an n CEO, and I will say this our
a caveat, or preface it with this that not every
person in the military. I've had these ex science had
some really wonderful experiences, but some of these are really
tough and and to process um. And so this n
(10:33):
c O, I was, I was too received a rewarding.
This c O was responsible for typing up the paperwork
I'm in the room. He outlast as some people don't deserve,
you know, different things. Well, that was a time when
I was going to get out of the military, and
so I was okay with putting that aside, only to
(10:56):
find out that that n c O had not process
is my pay ford for me to get out, and
that UM I was still in the military, even got
promoted while I was on inactive reserve, which is what
he placed me in and which was a blessing in
disguise because I was still in the military. I got
to stay. Those years weren't good years but didn't count.
(11:17):
But it was that kind of she It was. I
was in the Air Defense artillery unit, by the way,
uh And not that those those service members are bad,
but I have to say this, we're in one and
I was there doing a time when the presence of
females was novice. It was like if if ever at all,
(11:43):
let alone a chaplain or chaplain candidate. And so I
was a part of a time when being things that
are unfolding now people were just whispering about maybe or
um had their their objections too. I've had plenty of
opportunities where individuals would try and sabotage certain aspects of
(12:04):
my career. I remember being on deployment and um I
deployed Da Kosovo and I was the only female chaplain.
So this was the first time the serving albaiting and
religious community would have been exposed to a female chaplain,
and before I even came in country, the task force
chaplain had to inquire of the religious leaders where they
(12:26):
comfortable having a conversation with the female job. We're talking
about the moms, um, And so it's like like in
other spaces, you would not need permission as a professional.
My colleagues didn't need permission, and then permission needed to
be asked of me, And so those were some of
(12:47):
the barriers. But they also taught me that my voice
and my presence matters in spaces, and I have to
do well, not to perform well to leave an impression
of see I told you, but to do well so
that other people who follow they have credibility after me.
(13:14):
I think this lines up for me, especially Memorial Day, UM,
And I apologize if I'm going segue Memorial Day coming up,
thinking about those African American service members who lost their
life and service. When I am dialogue with other veterans
or service members and to hear their narrative of the
(13:34):
things that they had to overcome during their times of service,
being called out their name and I don't mean buddy
fran Pal, being treated unfairly by their peers or in community,
when they when when they were out on off post
(13:55):
or even on post, and so when I hear their
near paratives and the hardships they had to experience and
the hardships I experienced. But over time things improve, um,
nonetheless the way it's paved. And so this is my
(14:17):
experience in the military is a part of a legacy
of those who have gone before me, long long before me,
prior to Vietnam and World War One and World to
all of those even during Civil War. Um, the legacy
goes back that far. And so I in my own
(14:38):
career was diligent about being the person that my ancestors conspect.
That's really interesting. I want to continue from there in
a moment right after a quick break. You know what's
so interesting about what you just said is it's it's
entirely bigger than you, completely and totally, and that's whether
(15:01):
it be and you, operating in your your capacity, obviously
your professional capacity, and what you're doing in the right
here and now, you are literally creating a trail for others.
And I think that's clearly what services about your fellow
man or woman ensuring that certainly there's space for them,
(15:22):
and we honor, honor, you for that, and certainly for
everyone that died uh in honor of their country. I
think this is like the greatest sacrifice you can ever give.
So I really really appreciate that, and I'm thankful for
your story. Now I know faith as played such an
important and exceptional part of your life. How does faith
(15:44):
play in your role in counseling and in by rolling counseling?
I on function around the practice called psycho theological integration
and what that means incorporating psychology, theology or one's belief
system and bringing those clinical and spiritual worlds together. It's
really done by holding space. Buber has this ival concept
(16:09):
of the respect of the other. There's this mutual positive regard,
and so in that space is very different from being
a pastoral counselor. It's very different from being a Minister's
very different from being a clinical therapist because you are
enveloping all these worlds not based off of where you are,
but you're based it off of where is this person
(16:31):
that has allowed me to journey with him. So for
my for practice, that is how it I navigated it
can be. I've worked with everyone from Muslims to Wickens
to Spiritualists to Buddhists, Christians. So the spectrum of holding
(16:55):
space has nothing to do with one's denomination and has
to do with this author to human experience that we have.
I hold space for myself knowing that the work I'm
doing is for the greater good, and I am able
to then be present with the other, to connect with
them based off of what their needs are so that
(17:17):
they can do their work to become well. Wow, Okay,
let me ask you this question because as a faith
person and what I see is totally different than military, clearly.
And I've never served, uh And I want to say unfortunately,
because I think it's just such a great h a
great honor to serve. But have you noticed, as I've
(17:39):
seen across the country where there seems to be somewhat
of a marginalization around faith, people of faith, and this
usurping of of that that freedom of religious faith to
be able to state what you are, who you are,
and to embrace it. You know, in a lot of cases,
(18:00):
as people are looking to take God out of the constitution,
take them off the dollar bill, We've seen that occur
over the years. And I would argue that it seems
as though it's much more prevalent than it was previously.
Have you seen any of that in the military. Have
you felt as though, you know, you've seen people's roles,
whether it be you or someone else, marginalized because of
(18:21):
their commitment to faith or their exposing of it. UM
and the military is quite different. Chaplains are in the
military because we support the free exercise of religion. That
is our that is our one of our responsibilities to
ensure the free exercise of religion. And so the exposure
(18:43):
I've had with individuals of different denominations, my responsibility has
been to ensure that they have the space to practice.
I either perform or provide performinging. I perform according to
my tenants of faith UM as a Christian and provide me.
If I have a service member who's Buddhist or Wiccan
(19:03):
or Ish Khan, um whatever, then I am to ensure
that they have space and time to practice. The caveat
to that is as long as it doesn't interfere with mission.
And I've had to navigate that part for them. So
I've been more of an advocate to ensure, well, you know, Friday,
(19:27):
their prayers need to happen, and so what missions are
going on that allows space for individuals of practice or
sabbath or mass any of those any of those experiences.
So my responsibility, even food restrictions to ensure that those
(19:48):
things are accommodated for the service members. As it relates
to society at large transitioning out of the military, even
though I've serve dually, a lot of my mindset shifts
towards military structure. I find that individuals like to be
(20:10):
able to make their own choices about how they like
things to be, and it's not always about collective community consciousness.
So when it comes to this divisive stance around the
announcement respect of perspective of religions and removal of certain
(20:31):
things to create this unified structure, I go back historically
to the reason why things were established the way they
were from the beginning, and the individuals who are protesting
these things now did not have access or a voice
in those decisions. Now individuals have a voice, and they're
(20:51):
using that voice to articulate their preferences based off of
their individual selves, not the active often and so that
is in my mind how I'm able to navigate, Well,
you want this removed because you weren't a part of
decision making process. Of course you were not, And now
(21:12):
you have a voice that social justice. I can advocate
and speak for myself. That is what society says, in
a democratic society says, we have permission to do permission.
I use that very interestingly, of course, um, and so
people do it. So when it comes to this perspective
(21:33):
around how religions are fluid or not fluid, or diversified
or not diversisfied, what's accessible, what's not? Um, what is
labeled or not, it's about well, I wasn't a part
of the decision making process, so now I want to
be a part of it now. And it doesn't mean
(21:55):
systemically things will change. It just means that people now
have a voice and that and I appreciate that point
of view, uh, that they want to have a voice.
But it seems as though some of the voices of
because you just mentioned it is not the collective so
as someone who's uniquely disseminating whatever message that they feel
(22:15):
as most conducive to how they believe. But it feels
as though in some contexts that individuals are looking to
usurp a person's right to express their faith and we
this is clearly not all military. I'm never certain the military,
but in corporations, if you say like, oh, I'm a Christian,
(22:36):
I pray or and I know they're supposed to be No, uh,
you're you're you're not supposed to discriminate against individuals. But
we've seen where individuals have announced their faith and they've
been fired from jobs, or whereas we see that there
is a condemnation of certain belief systems, and so it's
(22:57):
it's it's just a very really interesting thing place right now.
And I was really interested in knowing if you had
any personal experiences with that in the military, which you
kind of went into. So thank you for mentioning that.
And I'm hoping and praying that it will never be
a time where a person serving in the military can't
proudly announce their faith. And you know, I'm a Christian
(23:21):
just like you are. And I think it's so important
that faith plays a pardon everything that we do, whether
it be professional or personally. It makes all the difference
in the world in my viewpoint, in per my experience,
well to to say how prevalent or how significant is
on our id tags or some people will call them
dog tags are religious preferences listed on our with our
(23:46):
SOLF security number, our name, and blood type. So is
your religious not your denominational preference? And I would sadly
say the reason that is listed on there is that
in case of a loss, that the corporate rights can
be given to you in your passing. So there's a
huge consideration of what faith means to military personnel, even
(24:12):
at death. So that's how that's the extent that diversity
and the understanding. But again the practice as long as
it does then interfere with mission, that's the practice. We
can talk about other aspects of religion, uh of where
(24:34):
people served in the military and how that impacts them.
I've had those experiences with individuals and the bias and
discrimination that comes with that, and what that means for
other cultures or even those of other cultures who serve
in the military, and and those practices of discrimination based
(24:56):
off of the way one looks or the way one speaks,
or being called a trigger because of a deployment experience.
So those things are real as well. So the it's
really um and I think I'm being very over generalizing
um this message, but I'm trying to be very clear
(25:19):
that it's not all, it's some, but it is there.
And the unfortunate part about the it's not all or
some is the the some sometimes control the conversation because
they're the vocal minority. And those are the people who
who are written about, who are reported on. And I'm
talking about reporting from a journalistic standpoint, and we we
(25:42):
were begin to think that maybe there is a change
is occurring in the in the military service. But I
pray and hope that we'll see a continuation of a positive,
faith based experience, being able to be who you are
and not have to change for the sake of what
a few may think or say. So I appreciate that.
(26:04):
Thank you for explaining that to us. Now, we know
veterans across the country are dealing with a lot of
issues from jobs, mental health, homelessness, and we're talking about
folks who have already left the service. And we see
signs where we are on the free you know, leaving
the freeway exiting off where somebody may say I'm a veteran,
or people are on the street where they're veteran veteran
(26:28):
hats and they're asking for change, or they're homeless or
whatever the case may be. And there's a lot of
people who feel very patriotic around helping UM individuals like
that and helping veterans broadly speaking, are those general principles
should we apply in terms of help helping them? What
should we be thinking about when we're talking about Memorial Day?
(26:50):
How can we serve those who have given everything for
our freedom? How can we better serve them? Um? So
I'm just gonna get to answer the Latin like the
latter part, and maybe that will be inclusive of the
other parts um that you spoke on. I believe that
(27:13):
in terms in terms of how can we serve veterans
who have given everything for us? How can we honor them?
Because we've seen a lot of folks who are dealing
with homelessness, mental issues. Uh you see them on the
corner with science and that they're veteran and they need help.
How can we honor their sacrifice as they fall for
(27:34):
our freedom? Or rather your sacrifice, you all sacrifice, I
should say so. So I have I have mixed positions
about that from a personal lens and from a professional one. Okay, Um,
from a professional lens, it's um individuals who who served
(27:59):
and so served well or not so well, they still served,
and they are there due the respect of service and
the benefits they're entitled to because of that service, whether
it be through the v A, communal support, veteran service organizations,
et cetera. Then there are some who, by life chance,
(28:25):
make choices that impact the life of other people. And
so my bias and that is to what extent are
those individuals They're eligible for the benefits they're eligible produced service,
(28:46):
but how to what extent are they eligible for the
support of community? And this is probably leaning in a
lot of different directions. Service member us, like everybody else,
while we serve, we're also human beings. We are also
(29:06):
citizens of this country. And while we have the respect
of service, we still have to follow the protocols, the laws,
the system, et cetera. We don't. We don't get away
with things just because of service. So when it comes
(29:30):
to the impact of mental health, when it comes to
the impact of homelessness, when it comes to the impact
of job loss, incarceration, all those um things that impact
service members just like everybody else, it's what is the
(29:51):
individual's narrative that brings them into the space. And I
think first the first thing to help is to understand
the story, to find out if help is necessary, because
there are times when help is not necessary but desired,
(30:16):
and then there are times when help is necessary, and
then there are times when help is deserved. And then
there's times when you're entitled to And I'm not talking
about entitlement in terms of privilege, I mean like entitlement
to be VA benefits, entitlements too, you know, um VA,
homelown benefits, et cetera. And so I always encourage people
(30:40):
find out what the person's narrative is, understand their story,
not from a place of judgment, but from a place
of unconditional positive regard. To be the listener, not to
do anything or to fix anything, but to simply engage.
(31:07):
Just to engage, and then you'll understand what needs are unmet.
But you'll only know those specifically when you ask. So
for women veterans, the assumptions around women veterans in their service, well,
(31:27):
some of our health care needs are different from our
male counterparts. So to assume that women veterans need the
exact same healthcare right or the exact same services, and
wanting a community wanted to do something without asking what
is the need, what is the support um Sometimes the
(31:55):
need for homeless women veterans are different from male veterans.
Sometimes the mental health issues where women veterans are different
than male veterans, And so it's about asking the question
to find out what resources are necessary and deserved and
(32:19):
if support can be rendered. I want to pick up
from there in a moment, but first let's go to break,
you know. And that's that's such a I don't think
a lot of people take time to kind of think
about that, to engage on that level, because it's almost
(32:41):
like you're just passing by someone on the street and
you thank them for their service and you try to
help them out with whatever you have in your pocket.
So it's it's on a very micro level in terms
of that level of engagement. People a lot of times
don't even take the time to say, hey, you know,
how did how did you get how did you get here?
(33:03):
No one, no one. Not many people take that time
to do that. Not understand your point in terms of hey,
sometimes in those situations, you can have a veteran that's
dealing with mental health issues and they don't want to help.
They're just they're on the street, just like you see
a lot of folks generally in the state of California
anywhere else with homelessness. In the state of california's about
(33:25):
a hundred and fifty thousand people, and some folks just
choose to be in those set of circumstances. There's other
than others that need help. But according to Military Times,
there's about thirty seven thousand homeless veterans um and that's
as that number is as recent as this year, that
who need help. But then you see individuals who come
(33:46):
into the country and in some cases illegally, and there's
billions of dollars being spent um for them to take
care of them. But it doesn't seem to be that
same level of urgency for those those who actually serve
the country. Is that something that you've noticed. I think
(34:07):
that um organism of MEMBIS say agencies, let me say
agencies tend to rely on the systems that they put
in place to support those of us who serve. Like
the v A administration, they like you can go to
the Viet Well, not everybody is eligible for VA benefits,
and so sometimes I think that the aside is, well,
(34:30):
we have services for veterans already, we have programs for
veterans already, and so the space created and systems created
to support veterans, then UM, they have to do their
diligence to ensure that these veteran pandemics, if you will,
(34:52):
or veteran concerns or issues that are prevalent are reduced,
thus leaving time for other people to to be concerned
about UM, immigration, all the other aspects that that you
you speak of. And so I think that's what happens, UM,
(35:12):
that it's kind of a pass off to the v
A or other systems in place. UM, homelessness among that
veteran population, UM, as you stated, has grown. And I
would say also, then if you consider during Vietnam, the
(35:37):
Vietnam era, how service members were treated when they came home,
in addition to the segregation that still existed in the country,
and to say, well there they want to stay on
the street, Well, you didn't receive me, then, so why
why should I go and get your help now? And
I know, I know I've worked with quite a few
(35:58):
Vietnam veterans who have that statement. When I came home,
I had to throw my uniform in the garbage because
of how people treated me or African American veterans, the
discrimination that they dealt with in returning home, and so
why would I if I am home with why would
(36:19):
I want to go to a system that has already
abandoned me? And pity there and and and the point
of and I understand that period of time were certainly
in a much different period of time. However, however, even
the referencing of the v A, we know how the
(36:40):
v A was really failing veterans for many years. People
people said, hey, we need to we're not getting the
adequate care or that we should be getting at the
v A v A hospital system or the v A
system generally speaking. And that was one of the things
that needed to be fixed. And I think that fixing
(37:00):
of it came around tween I believe it was. And
I'm sure there's still much more work to be done,
no no doubt about that. But do you feel, uh,
in your opinion the current VA system is effective at
providing the care that our veterans need. It depends on
which VIA you go to. And I'm not gonna lie
(37:21):
about that. I'm talking as a veteran now. I have
heard so many stories, um from fellow veterans whether they're
clients or colleagues, about the va system and how they
function to operate when I've had my own share of experiences,
believe it or not, UM, So I think that it
(37:46):
depends on the administration at that particular v A and
how they operate. That does make a huge difference, UM
in the type of service. Now, how service improved over time?
I would say from my own experiences and use of
the v A, it has changed quite dramatically. I'm quite
(38:10):
a bit UM to the degree where if providers are available,
UM they have community care where you can see a provider,
a civilian provider, but UM be a connected provider in
the community to receive services. Did they have that prior
to to I think this they started with the Choice
(38:32):
program a few years ago. This was after I came
back from deployment, so this is before they didn't have this.
So you're talking about level of care, quality of care,
waiting time. Do I have appointments that I can't get
into until August and it's May Yes, I do absolutely
that happens. UM. Is it the failure of the system
(38:56):
or that them lacking care? I don't think it's a
lack of care. I think it's just how administrations are
able to maintain uh, theirs, their systems, their staff, UM
and what's happening UM. So there are two different parts.
There's the administrative part and then there's the care of
(39:16):
the veteran when they're entering in that space. Am I
respected in care for when I go to the v A,
when I go to my appointments in women's health and
ignore all the other things, I'm okay when I received good,
great care from my providers. Have there been times whe
(39:38):
I didn't receive quality service? Absolutely, And that's where they
have patient advocates and you can enquire and inform and
let them know about a service or something that does
not meet UM, your expectation as as a veteran. So there,
while the system really had some issues, I do see
(40:05):
some progress being made in terms of the care I receive.
I do have other colleagues who are not getting the
same care, and I'm I'm an advocate, and so I say,
you can ask for the services that you need. You
can inquire, you can educate this provider on military culture
because sometimes they don't know UM. You can correct them
(40:29):
if some statement is made that impacts your care. So
there are these layers around the systems that do exist.
The other part to what you're saying are the veterans
that are in the spaces with other veterans right and
(40:49):
sometimes the that behavior or what occurs is not managed
and creates other issues or other problems. But um again,
you have advocates in the space that you can report
to to ensure you're kept safe or if you have
concerns around those, as much as you do with the staff. Now,
(41:12):
if you could reform the system, the v a system,
that is what reforms which you you make. I would
make reforms to better care for women veterans, better holistic
care for women veterans. Military sexual trauma seems to be
(41:33):
the buzzword that lingers around we're talking about women veterans.
That's not the only type of care that is necessary
for women that as some of us have really high
functioning careers, um and and professions which require us to
maintain a certain level of what we call in a
(41:54):
military operation tempo very heightened and so to understand and
what have military service impacts not just the sexual trauma survivor,
but the combat veteran, the person who witnessed trauma, heard
about trauma, UM all those other things, especially women veterans,
(42:16):
is significantly important. I would add those pieces to the administration,
not just for women veterans, but for maale veterans as well,
because sometimes that's missed. UM. I will offer an aspect.
I would include an aspect of holistic care, which includes
not just trauma treatment but basic life reentry, if you will.
(42:40):
I as a veteran, I serve I also have PTSD
and from complex traumas connected to the military, and it
isn't It has become very important to me that individuals
are aware that while one might be diagnosed, the diagnosis
(43:04):
is not a frame of reference for who they are
and they're being uh. In fact, people are still able
to function in a very specific way in their careers.
And so I would offer to the v A programs
or services or can have them consider how do we
support those individuals as well, because that's often the stereotype
(43:29):
goes that if you're a veteran with PTSD, then you
are like this. And I think I'm very clear that
I'm a veteran with PTSD, and I have a service dog,
and I function like this and so right and and
I can articulate well, and I can advocate for myself,
(43:51):
and I can do all of those high functioning things.
I still have PTSD, and don't let the diagnosis treat
allow you to treat me less. And throughout our country,
our country's history, those who have been diagnosed with PTSD,
they are in some respects treated like their throwaway's, like
(44:13):
you're unable to fully function and be a part of
our society. It's almost like, oh man, it's sadly person
at p PTSD. When you know, you look at places
like Chicago where there's and obviously military services the print,
but there's a lot of people who are walking around
with PTSD and don't even know it. Mm hmmm. Yeah.
(44:34):
It's community trauma, you know, as you know impacted by that,
I mean exposure to violence. PTSD is not just what
you did about what you witnessed and also heard. So
I don't think people understood the criterion of PTSD um
they were also understand and by curious trauma and all
(44:55):
those other aspects of it. So there are many layers
two to this and to your questions like what would
I infuse into the v A system. I would infuse that, like,
let's do some community work around people understanding and understanding
PTSD and this in this wholeness, not just in the
part where you're a veteran you went off the combat.
(45:16):
Yes you have PTSD, but other people who experience other
types of trauma have to work really hard to prove
that those are their traumas. What interesting dichonomy that is
being in those spaces? Well, before I let you go,
I wanted to ask you, because we're family and you've
seen me since obviously I was a little kid. Uh,
(45:39):
what if you could give people who are listening, because
folks are interesting interested in you know, my background, how
I grew up, and of course I talked about it
in the book Taking for Granted, But what would you
say about me then and now? What would your your
overarching concise analysis be. M I I'm gonna pause on
(46:06):
this because my heart just fluttered out of out of
my love for you and my respect for your path
and your journey. And I think people assume a lot
and take for granted, not not to pull away from
your book, but to plug it. Um for granted, um
(46:32):
your story and your why, you're why. I'm privy to
the why and to the story. So I get that,
I get the whole picture that is you. Um, but
people who meet you and are impressed and you do
(46:53):
have a lasting impression. But to feel the energy of
your story behind how you move and how you function,
and how you operate and why you move and why
you operate and why you function the way that you do.
It's not because you are your story. It's because you
(47:16):
have a story to tell. And I assume that sometimes
people either will want to put you in the past
with your narrative or in the presence of where they
want you to be or see you, and you are
living in your now and to experience you and your now.
(47:36):
That is what gives great honor to these authentic connections
that you have with others where they begin to understand
a little bit more of you as you permit them to.
That they respect your journey, which includes your story, but
they're also open to the next chapters as you have
(47:58):
them be not the way they need you to be.
And I think that knowing how proud you are and
not in pride of who you are as a person,
and in always discovering your becoming to honor that not
(48:19):
as an insecurity, that is the value that's driven by
your longing for more, more growth, more understanding, more wisdom,
and to share that with others who are open to
receiving it with open arms, not close fist like they're
wanting to fight you for it. Um. And so I've
(48:41):
seen how you've been with family, I've seen how you've
been with me in my journey with trauma and PTSD,
and I can say you're a delicate heart, um, and
you're a golden smile and the sun that shines through
you that like that shines through you. I hope people
(49:03):
always see that and respect it and not make assumptions
about it, and honor you, your narrative, your story, your
journey for that. But you have grown into this beautiful soul.
You've always had a beautiful soul, but you've grown into
this very strong man of substance. And that makes me proud. Wow,
(49:31):
that was that was pretty profound. Thank you, Thank you
for sharing. And I feel like I just went to
counseling with Dr Ola Antonia. Thank you for everything you
you mean to me, and you've been with me through
some of the more interesting phases of life. And I
appreciate your love, your commitment to always pushing me forward
(49:56):
and just being someone that I count on is one
of my closest and years. So I love you so much.
Thank you for joining me as such an honor to
have you on here, and thank you for all all
of what you do for yourself and your fellow veterans.
Thank you for joining out Loud with Gianno called Weell.
(50:24):
I want to thank dr Oland Antoyan Haines again for
a great interview. If you're enjoying the show, please leave
us a review and radis for fos stars on Apple Podcasts.
If you have any questions for me, please email me
at The out Loud at Ginger Street sixty dot com
and I'll try to answer them in our episodes. And
please sign up for my monthly newsletter at Ginger Street
sixty dot com Slash out Loud. You can also follow
me on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and palmer at Giano Caldwell.
(50:46):
And if you're interested in learning more about my story,
you please pick up a copy of my bestselling book
title Taken for Granted, How Conservatism Can Win Back to
Americans The Liberalism Failed. Special things to our producer John Cassio,
researcher Aaron Kleinman and executive do so. There's Debbie Myers
and speaker new Gingwich, all part of the Inglish three
sixty network.
Up next out Wow, what Jo called part of the gang?
Which switch? What can we do for those who have
done everything for us? I'm talking about veterans, jobs, mental health, homelessness. Too.
Many of those who have served this country are suffering
and need our help. So what can we do? The answer?
(00:23):
So much and there's no time to waste. This is
out Allowed with Gianno called me. Welcome back to Allow
with Gianno called well and Honora Memorial Day. I've got
a very special show for you guys this week that
I'm really looking forward to. My guests today is a
(00:45):
relative of mine, someone who I talked to in my
time and need is specially My guest is Dr Olamenttoyan Hines,
the owner of Peace Amount Counseling, Coaching and Consulting. A
licensed professional counselor alone. Towyan has more than twenty years
of military service and recently retired from the Illinois National
Guard as a brigade chaplain. On top of that, she
(01:08):
also happens to be my cousin. As I mentioned earlier,
Olaetwyan has so many interesting ideas and powerful insights into
how we can better help those who have done so
much for us. Veterans and their families. We're going to
discuss what can be done in terms of jobs, mental health, homelessness,
and so much more. This episode means a lot to
(01:29):
me and I hope you will tune in. And now
I want to welcome Reverend Dr Ola Antoyan Hines. Thank
you so much for joining me on out lot with
Gianno Calldwell. Thank you for having me appreciate it absolutely so.
You are my cousin, but you're more like my sister
than my cousins, So so we got a really strong
relationship and I'm very thankful. Before we discuss how to
(01:54):
help veterans and some other issues, why don't you tell
our listeners a bit about yourself. What's your background and
how did you come into military service. Well, I just
retired in September from the military after twenty six years.
I enlisted as a private and worked my way through
(02:14):
Enlisted Officers Candidate School became a military chaplain. So when
I retired, I retired at the rank of major as
a brigade chaplain. In addition, I am an educator and
faith community as well as a minister, and I'm also
a licensed clinical professional counselor serving veterans and their families. Amen,
(02:37):
not as beautiful. And I know the governor of Illinois,
the former governor, he created a position for you to
lead the Illinois National Guard. Is that right? Well, it wasn't.
That wasn't the position to lead. It was. There were
a couple of positions that were offered at the duty
operational support. One was the Wounded Warrior Project or Wounded
(03:01):
Warrior Ministry Project, not to be confused with the Wounded
Warrior Project, the formal organization. It was the Wounded Warrior
Ministry Project, and that program was intended to visit ill,
injured and wounded service members across the United States from
the Illinois Army National Guards. So we had service members
(03:21):
who deployed could not come back home for a multitude
of reasons, and it was my responsibility to provide a
pastoral spiritual care to those service members, checking with their families.
Um I also served as family Life chaplain for the
Illinois Army National Guard and providing training, two chaplains, and
(03:44):
some important counseling spiritual counseling to service members and their families. Wow, now,
if you would indulge us a little bit on how
old were you when you joined the service, and what
gave that desire to join, because it's it's a big commitment,
and it's a life commitment for so many people who joined.
I joined the military when I was nineteen years old.
(04:06):
I was already in college my freshman year, and I
came home um for summer break. And I will tell
this very quick story. I was up for three o'clock
in the morning. I couldn't sleep, and there was an
at that came on for the Joint the National Guard.
So at three o'clock in the morning, I called the recruiter. Um,
(04:29):
I believe he did answer. And to this day, this
recruited I I was still acquainted. In fact, he attended
my retirement ceremony vertically. And I made the choice to
join the military. And I was longing for something more
disciplined in my life. My family background, as you know,
(04:51):
lends itself to a lot of pathology and just kind
of disproportionate. Um, how do I say this? Social opportunities,
professional opportunities, and I wanted to create space for myself
while I had more opportunities, and joining the military provided
payment for college to receive some funds, and um, what
(05:15):
came out of that for me also was a great
deal of leadership, learn a lot more about myself. It
cultivated me into the person that I am today. A
lot of my personality, my person who stems from the
lessons I've learned in the military throughout. So that story
and three o'clock in the morning and calling the recruiter
summer of my freshman year, going into my sophomore year,
(05:38):
and the following year actually in that June I enlisted,
and the following January I was off to basic training.
Now you have more than twenty years in military service
under your belt. What was military service like? Was it
something that you were very concerned because I know a
lot of times, especially in families like ours, people are
(06:00):
concerned about sending their loved ones out and the possibility
that something could happen to them while they're serving. How
was that service experience like for you? It depends on
the period of of life or season of my military
career that I was in. While enlisted, it was a
(06:23):
very different experience. I was in college, so I was
commuting from your vine, Urbana to Chicago for military training
once a month. In addition to being a college student.
Now at the time I was administration for my unit,
and so the responsibilities weren't so intense um as they
(06:48):
had become later. However, it was the time away from
a college students routine. So there was this duality of worlds,
one as a soldier and then the other as a student.
Then I decided I'll become an officer, and so here
I am still in school um in undergrad and going
(07:10):
away for officers training and prepering to become an officer,
and the intensity of or demand on service was different.
There were lots of expectations around leadership, some of which
I had not been exposed to. I began to learn
more about war in combat from a from not from
an administrative lens. Now we're talking about strategy and operation
(07:34):
and how as an officer the expectation to function in
those conditions and states. And then there was the part
when I did become an officer and the mentality of
switching from being enlisted to being an officer, the expectation
of demands, and I was a chaplain. What was unique
(07:55):
to my chaplain cy is that I was the first
female chaplain candidate in the d National Guard Army National
Guard and the first female chap chaplain, first female chaplain candidate,
and there was this nuance that one people had not
been exposed to women chaplains, and there was the cultural
component impacted by that. So they're they're all these Uh,
(08:20):
so my dualities became more quadrupled here. I am still
a student, I'm now a soldier and officer, and I
am a chaplain and I'm also a woman, and I'm
also African American. And so throughout my career I dealt
(08:40):
with barriers and I will and I had to create
I had to work hard to create spaces for myself
to prove um not myself to people, but my my presence,
my presence in those spaces, and so I worked really
(09:00):
hard to accomplish and and my passion and taking care
of service members and families has always that's that's my value,
that's my intrinsic value. So that remained, and yet I
was dealing with these external forces that sometimes made that
value complex. Now that's interesting, and uh, for everybody that's listening,
(09:24):
they can tell you're clearly a super smart person. I
love your word usage of you know, you talk about barriers,
and so often people deal with barriers in life and
in multiple ways. But when you're thinking about military services,
certainly an entirely different ball game than what I may
experiences someone who's never been a part of that life.
(09:47):
Would you mind sharing a little bit about what those
barriers might have been or how did you you handle them,
because it's, as you mentioned, it's very complex situation. I
there were, but there are so many narratives to tell,
and I and I will I will point to the
ones that have been turning points for my way of
(10:09):
being and thinking. I recall as a Chaplin candidate and
having an n CEO, and I will say this our
a caveat, or preface it with this that not every
person in the military. I've had these ex science had
some really wonderful experiences, but some of these are really
tough and and to process um. And so this n
(10:33):
c O, I was, I was too received a rewarding.
This c O was responsible for typing up the paperwork
I'm in the room. He outlast as some people don't deserve,
you know, different things. Well, that was a time when
I was going to get out of the military, and
so I was okay with putting that aside, only to
(10:56):
find out that that n c O had not process
is my pay ford for me to get out, and
that UM I was still in the military, even got
promoted while I was on inactive reserve, which is what
he placed me in and which was a blessing in
disguise because I was still in the military. I got
to stay. Those years weren't good years but didn't count.
(11:17):
But it was that kind of she It was. I
was in the Air Defense artillery unit, by the way,
uh And not that those those service members are bad,
but I have to say this, we're in one and
I was there doing a time when the presence of
females was novice. It was like if if ever at all,
(11:43):
let alone a chaplain or chaplain candidate. And so I
was a part of a time when being things that
are unfolding now people were just whispering about maybe or
um had their their objections too. I've had plenty of
opportunities where individuals would try and sabotage certain aspects of
(12:04):
my career. I remember being on deployment and um I
deployed Da Kosovo and I was the only female chaplain.
So this was the first time the serving albaiting and
religious community would have been exposed to a female chaplain,
and before I even came in country, the task force
chaplain had to inquire of the religious leaders where they
(12:26):
comfortable having a conversation with the female job. We're talking
about the moms, um, And so it's like like in
other spaces, you would not need permission as a professional.
My colleagues didn't need permission, and then permission needed to
be asked of me, And so those were some of
(12:47):
the barriers. But they also taught me that my voice
and my presence matters in spaces, and I have to
do well, not to perform well to leave an impression
of see I told you, but to do well so
that other people who follow they have credibility after me.
(13:14):
I think this lines up for me, especially Memorial Day, UM,
And I apologize if I'm going segue Memorial Day coming up,
thinking about those African American service members who lost their
life and service. When I am dialogue with other veterans
or service members and to hear their narrative of the
(13:34):
things that they had to overcome during their times of service,
being called out their name and I don't mean buddy
fran Pal, being treated unfairly by their peers or in community,
when they when when they were out on off post
(13:55):
or even on post, and so when I hear their
near paratives and the hardships they had to experience and
the hardships I experienced. But over time things improve, um,
nonetheless the way it's paved. And so this is my
(14:17):
experience in the military is a part of a legacy
of those who have gone before me, long long before me,
prior to Vietnam and World War One and World to
all of those even during Civil War. Um, the legacy
goes back that far. And so I in my own
(14:38):
career was diligent about being the person that my ancestors conspect.
That's really interesting. I want to continue from there in
a moment right after a quick break. You know what's
so interesting about what you just said is it's it's
entirely bigger than you, completely and totally, and that's whether
(15:01):
it be and you, operating in your your capacity, obviously
your professional capacity, and what you're doing in the right
here and now, you are literally creating a trail for others.
And I think that's clearly what services about your fellow
man or woman ensuring that certainly there's space for them,
(15:22):
and we honor, honor, you for that, and certainly for
everyone that died uh in honor of their country. I
think this is like the greatest sacrifice you can ever give.
So I really really appreciate that, and I'm thankful for
your story. Now I know faith as played such an
important and exceptional part of your life. How does faith
(15:44):
play in your role in counseling and in by rolling counseling?
I on function around the practice called psycho theological integration
and what that means incorporating psychology, theology or one's belief
system and bringing those clinical and spiritual worlds together. It's
really done by holding space. Buber has this ival concept
(16:09):
of the respect of the other. There's this mutual positive regard,
and so in that space is very different from being
a pastoral counselor. It's very different from being a Minister's
very different from being a clinical therapist because you are
enveloping all these worlds not based off of where you are,
but you're based it off of where is this person
(16:31):
that has allowed me to journey with him. So for
my for practice, that is how it I navigated it
can be. I've worked with everyone from Muslims to Wickens
to Spiritualists to Buddhists, Christians. So the spectrum of holding
(16:55):
space has nothing to do with one's denomination and has
to do with this author to human experience that we have.
I hold space for myself knowing that the work I'm
doing is for the greater good, and I am able
to then be present with the other, to connect with
them based off of what their needs are so that
(17:17):
they can do their work to become well. Wow, Okay,
let me ask you this question because as a faith
person and what I see is totally different than military, clearly.
And I've never served, uh And I want to say unfortunately,
because I think it's just such a great h a
great honor to serve. But have you noticed, as I've
(17:39):
seen across the country where there seems to be somewhat
of a marginalization around faith, people of faith, and this
usurping of of that that freedom of religious faith to
be able to state what you are, who you are,
and to embrace it. You know, in a lot of cases,
(18:00):
as people are looking to take God out of the constitution,
take them off the dollar bill, We've seen that occur
over the years. And I would argue that it seems
as though it's much more prevalent than it was previously.
Have you seen any of that in the military. Have
you felt as though, you know, you've seen people's roles,
whether it be you or someone else, marginalized because of
(18:21):
their commitment to faith or their exposing of it. UM
and the military is quite different. Chaplains are in the
military because we support the free exercise of religion. That
is our that is our one of our responsibilities to
ensure the free exercise of religion. And so the exposure
(18:43):
I've had with individuals of different denominations, my responsibility has
been to ensure that they have the space to practice.
I either perform or provide performinging. I perform according to
my tenants of faith UM as a Christian and provide me.
If I have a service member who's Buddhist or Wiccan
(19:03):
or Ish Khan, um whatever, then I am to ensure
that they have space and time to practice. The caveat
to that is as long as it doesn't interfere with mission.
And I've had to navigate that part for them. So
I've been more of an advocate to ensure, well, you know, Friday,
(19:27):
their prayers need to happen, and so what missions are
going on that allows space for individuals of practice or
sabbath or mass any of those any of those experiences.
So my responsibility, even food restrictions to ensure that those
(19:48):
things are accommodated for the service members. As it relates
to society at large transitioning out of the military, even
though I've serve dually, a lot of my mindset shifts
towards military structure. I find that individuals like to be
(20:10):
able to make their own choices about how they like
things to be, and it's not always about collective community consciousness.
So when it comes to this divisive stance around the
announcement respect of perspective of religions and removal of certain
(20:31):
things to create this unified structure, I go back historically
to the reason why things were established the way they
were from the beginning, and the individuals who are protesting
these things now did not have access or a voice
in those decisions. Now individuals have a voice, and they're
(20:51):
using that voice to articulate their preferences based off of
their individual selves, not the active often and so that
is in my mind how I'm able to navigate, Well,
you want this removed because you weren't a part of
decision making process. Of course you were not, And now
(21:12):
you have a voice that social justice. I can advocate
and speak for myself. That is what society says, in
a democratic society says, we have permission to do permission.
I use that very interestingly, of course, um, and so
people do it. So when it comes to this perspective
(21:33):
around how religions are fluid or not fluid, or diversified
or not diversisfied, what's accessible, what's not? Um, what is
labeled or not, it's about well, I wasn't a part
of the decision making process, so now I want to
be a part of it now. And it doesn't mean
(21:55):
systemically things will change. It just means that people now
have a voice and that and I appreciate that point
of view, uh, that they want to have a voice.
But it seems as though some of the voices of
because you just mentioned it is not the collective so
as someone who's uniquely disseminating whatever message that they feel
(22:15):
as most conducive to how they believe. But it feels
as though in some contexts that individuals are looking to
usurp a person's right to express their faith and we
this is clearly not all military. I'm never certain the military,
but in corporations, if you say like, oh, I'm a Christian,
(22:36):
I pray or and I know they're supposed to be No, uh,
you're you're you're not supposed to discriminate against individuals. But
we've seen where individuals have announced their faith and they've
been fired from jobs, or whereas we see that there
is a condemnation of certain belief systems, and so it's
(22:57):
it's it's just a very really interesting thing place right now.
And I was really interested in knowing if you had
any personal experiences with that in the military, which you
kind of went into. So thank you for mentioning that.
And I'm hoping and praying that it will never be
a time where a person serving in the military can't
proudly announce their faith. And you know, I'm a Christian
(23:21):
just like you are. And I think it's so important
that faith plays a pardon everything that we do, whether
it be professional or personally. It makes all the difference
in the world in my viewpoint, in per my experience,
well to to say how prevalent or how significant is
on our id tags or some people will call them
dog tags are religious preferences listed on our with our
(23:46):
SOLF security number, our name, and blood type. So is
your religious not your denominational preference? And I would sadly
say the reason that is listed on there is that
in case of a loss, that the corporate rights can
be given to you in your passing. So there's a
huge consideration of what faith means to military personnel, even
(24:12):
at death. So that's how that's the extent that diversity
and the understanding. But again the practice as long as
it does then interfere with mission, that's the practice. We
can talk about other aspects of religion, uh of where
(24:34):
people served in the military and how that impacts them.
I've had those experiences with individuals and the bias and
discrimination that comes with that, and what that means for
other cultures or even those of other cultures who serve
in the military, and and those practices of discrimination based
(24:56):
off of the way one looks or the way one speaks,
or being called a trigger because of a deployment experience.
So those things are real as well. So the it's
really um and I think I'm being very over generalizing
um this message, but I'm trying to be very clear
(25:19):
that it's not all, it's some, but it is there.
And the unfortunate part about the it's not all or
some is the the some sometimes control the conversation because
they're the vocal minority. And those are the people who
who are written about, who are reported on. And I'm
talking about reporting from a journalistic standpoint, and we we
(25:42):
were begin to think that maybe there is a change
is occurring in the in the military service. But I
pray and hope that we'll see a continuation of a positive,
faith based experience, being able to be who you are
and not have to change for the sake of what
a few may think or say. So I appreciate that.
(26:04):
Thank you for explaining that to us. Now, we know
veterans across the country are dealing with a lot of
issues from jobs, mental health, homelessness, and we're talking about
folks who have already left the service. And we see
signs where we are on the free you know, leaving
the freeway exiting off where somebody may say I'm a veteran,
or people are on the street where they're veteran veteran
(26:28):
hats and they're asking for change, or they're homeless or
whatever the case may be. And there's a lot of
people who feel very patriotic around helping UM individuals like
that and helping veterans broadly speaking, are those general principles
should we apply in terms of help helping them? What
should we be thinking about when we're talking about Memorial Day?
(26:50):
How can we serve those who have given everything for
our freedom? How can we better serve them? Um? So
I'm just gonna get to answer the Latin like the
latter part, and maybe that will be inclusive of the
other parts um that you spoke on. I believe that
(27:13):
in terms in terms of how can we serve veterans
who have given everything for us? How can we honor them?
Because we've seen a lot of folks who are dealing
with homelessness, mental issues. Uh you see them on the
corner with science and that they're veteran and they need help.
How can we honor their sacrifice as they fall for
(27:34):
our freedom? Or rather your sacrifice, you all sacrifice, I
should say so. So I have I have mixed positions
about that from a personal lens and from a professional one. Okay, Um,
from a professional lens, it's um individuals who who served
(27:59):
and so served well or not so well, they still served,
and they are there due the respect of service and
the benefits they're entitled to because of that service, whether
it be through the v A, communal support, veteran service organizations,
et cetera. Then there are some who, by life chance,
(28:25):
make choices that impact the life of other people. And
so my bias and that is to what extent are
those individuals They're eligible for the benefits they're eligible produced service,
(28:46):
but how to what extent are they eligible for the
support of community? And this is probably leaning in a
lot of different directions. Service member us, like everybody else,
while we serve, we're also human beings. We are also
(29:06):
citizens of this country. And while we have the respect
of service, we still have to follow the protocols, the laws,
the system, et cetera. We don't. We don't get away
with things just because of service. So when it comes
(29:30):
to the impact of mental health, when it comes to
the impact of homelessness, when it comes to the impact
of job loss, incarceration, all those um things that impact
service members just like everybody else, it's what is the
(29:51):
individual's narrative that brings them into the space. And I
think first the first thing to help is to understand
the story, to find out if help is necessary, because
there are times when help is not necessary but desired,
(30:16):
and then there are times when help is necessary, and
then there are times when help is deserved. And then
there's times when you're entitled to And I'm not talking
about entitlement in terms of privilege, I mean like entitlement
to be VA benefits, entitlements too, you know, um VA,
homelown benefits, et cetera. And so I always encourage people
(30:40):
find out what the person's narrative is, understand their story,
not from a place of judgment, but from a place
of unconditional positive regard. To be the listener, not to
do anything or to fix anything, but to simply engage.
(31:07):
Just to engage, and then you'll understand what needs are unmet.
But you'll only know those specifically when you ask. So
for women veterans, the assumptions around women veterans in their service, well,
(31:27):
some of our health care needs are different from our
male counterparts. So to assume that women veterans need the
exact same healthcare right or the exact same services, and
wanting a community wanted to do something without asking what
is the need, what is the support um Sometimes the
(31:55):
need for homeless women veterans are different from male veterans.
Sometimes the mental health issues where women veterans are different
than male veterans, And so it's about asking the question
to find out what resources are necessary and deserved and
(32:19):
if support can be rendered. I want to pick up
from there in a moment, but first let's go to break,
you know. And that's that's such a I don't think
a lot of people take time to kind of think
about that, to engage on that level, because it's almost
(32:41):
like you're just passing by someone on the street and
you thank them for their service and you try to
help them out with whatever you have in your pocket.
So it's it's on a very micro level in terms
of that level of engagement. People a lot of times
don't even take the time to say, hey, you know,
how did how did you get how did you get here?
(33:03):
No one, no one. Not many people take that time
to do that. Not understand your point in terms of hey,
sometimes in those situations, you can have a veteran that's
dealing with mental health issues and they don't want to help.
They're just they're on the street, just like you see
a lot of folks generally in the state of California
anywhere else with homelessness. In the state of california's about
(33:25):
a hundred and fifty thousand people, and some folks just
choose to be in those set of circumstances. There's other
than others that need help. But according to Military Times,
there's about thirty seven thousand homeless veterans um and that's
as that number is as recent as this year, that
who need help. But then you see individuals who come
(33:46):
into the country and in some cases illegally, and there's
billions of dollars being spent um for them to take
care of them. But it doesn't seem to be that
same level of urgency for those those who actually serve
the country. Is that something that you've noticed. I think
(34:07):
that um organism of MEMBIS say agencies, let me say
agencies tend to rely on the systems that they put
in place to support those of us who serve. Like
the v A administration, they like you can go to
the Viet Well, not everybody is eligible for VA benefits,
and so sometimes I think that the aside is, well,
(34:30):
we have services for veterans already, we have programs for
veterans already, and so the space created and systems created
to support veterans, then UM, they have to do their
diligence to ensure that these veteran pandemics, if you will,
(34:52):
or veteran concerns or issues that are prevalent are reduced,
thus leaving time for other people to to be concerned
about UM, immigration, all the other aspects that that you
you speak of. And so I think that's what happens, UM,
(35:12):
that it's kind of a pass off to the v
A or other systems in place. UM, homelessness among that
veteran population, UM, as you stated, has grown. And I
would say also, then if you consider during Vietnam, the
(35:37):
Vietnam era, how service members were treated when they came home,
in addition to the segregation that still existed in the country,
and to say, well there they want to stay on
the street, Well, you didn't receive me, then, so why
why should I go and get your help now? And
I know, I know I've worked with quite a few
(35:58):
Vietnam veterans who have that statement. When I came home,
I had to throw my uniform in the garbage because
of how people treated me or African American veterans, the
discrimination that they dealt with in returning home, and so
why would I if I am home with why would
(36:19):
I want to go to a system that has already
abandoned me? And pity there and and and the point
of and I understand that period of time were certainly
in a much different period of time. However, however, even
the referencing of the v A, we know how the
(36:40):
v A was really failing veterans for many years. People
people said, hey, we need to we're not getting the
adequate care or that we should be getting at the
v A v A hospital system or the v A
system generally speaking. And that was one of the things
that needed to be fixed. And I think that fixing
(37:00):
of it came around tween I believe it was. And
I'm sure there's still much more work to be done,
no no doubt about that. But do you feel, uh,
in your opinion the current VA system is effective at
providing the care that our veterans need. It depends on
which VIA you go to. And I'm not gonna lie
(37:21):
about that. I'm talking as a veteran now. I have
heard so many stories, um from fellow veterans whether they're
clients or colleagues, about the va system and how they
function to operate when I've had my own share of experiences,
believe it or not, UM, So I think that it
(37:46):
depends on the administration at that particular v A and
how they operate. That does make a huge difference, UM
in the type of service. Now, how service improved over time?
I would say from my own experiences and use of
the v A, it has changed quite dramatically. I'm quite
(38:10):
a bit UM to the degree where if providers are available,
UM they have community care where you can see a provider,
a civilian provider, but UM be a connected provider in
the community to receive services. Did they have that prior
to to I think this they started with the Choice
(38:32):
program a few years ago. This was after I came
back from deployment, so this is before they didn't have this.
So you're talking about level of care, quality of care,
waiting time. Do I have appointments that I can't get
into until August and it's May Yes, I do absolutely
that happens. UM. Is it the failure of the system
(38:56):
or that them lacking care? I don't think it's a
lack of care. I think it's just how administrations are
able to maintain uh, theirs, their systems, their staff, UM
and what's happening UM. So there are two different parts.
There's the administrative part and then there's the care of
(39:16):
the veteran when they're entering in that space. Am I
respected in care for when I go to the v A,
when I go to my appointments in women's health and
ignore all the other things, I'm okay when I received good,
great care from my providers. Have there been times whe
(39:38):
I didn't receive quality service? Absolutely, And that's where they
have patient advocates and you can enquire and inform and
let them know about a service or something that does
not meet UM, your expectation as as a veteran. So there,
while the system really had some issues, I do see
(40:05):
some progress being made in terms of the care I receive.
I do have other colleagues who are not getting the
same care, and I'm I'm an advocate, and so I say,
you can ask for the services that you need. You
can inquire, you can educate this provider on military culture
because sometimes they don't know UM. You can correct them
(40:29):
if some statement is made that impacts your care. So
there are these layers around the systems that do exist.
The other part to what you're saying are the veterans
that are in the spaces with other veterans right and
(40:49):
sometimes the that behavior or what occurs is not managed
and creates other issues or other problems. But um again,
you have advocates in the space that you can report
to to ensure you're kept safe or if you have
concerns around those, as much as you do with the staff. Now,
(41:12):
if you could reform the system, the v a system,
that is what reforms which you you make. I would
make reforms to better care for women veterans, better holistic
care for women veterans. Military sexual trauma seems to be
(41:33):
the buzzword that lingers around we're talking about women veterans.
That's not the only type of care that is necessary
for women that as some of us have really high
functioning careers, um and and professions which require us to
maintain a certain level of what we call in a
(41:54):
military operation tempo very heightened and so to understand and
what have military service impacts not just the sexual trauma survivor,
but the combat veteran, the person who witnessed trauma, heard
about trauma, UM all those other things, especially women veterans,
(42:16):
is significantly important. I would add those pieces to the administration,
not just for women veterans, but for maale veterans as well,
because sometimes that's missed. UM. I will offer an aspect.
I would include an aspect of holistic care, which includes
not just trauma treatment but basic life reentry, if you will.
(42:40):
I as a veteran, I serve I also have PTSD
and from complex traumas connected to the military, and it
isn't It has become very important to me that individuals
are aware that while one might be diagnosed, the diagnosis
(43:04):
is not a frame of reference for who they are
and they're being uh. In fact, people are still able
to function in a very specific way in their careers.
And so I would offer to the v A programs
or services or can have them consider how do we
support those individuals as well, because that's often the stereotype
(43:29):
goes that if you're a veteran with PTSD, then you
are like this. And I think I'm very clear that
I'm a veteran with PTSD, and I have a service dog,
and I function like this and so right and and
I can articulate well, and I can advocate for myself,
(43:51):
and I can do all of those high functioning things.
I still have PTSD, and don't let the diagnosis treat
allow you to treat me less. And throughout our country,
our country's history, those who have been diagnosed with PTSD,
they are in some respects treated like their throwaway's, like
(44:13):
you're unable to fully function and be a part of
our society. It's almost like, oh man, it's sadly person
at p PTSD. When you know, you look at places
like Chicago where there's and obviously military services the print,
but there's a lot of people who are walking around
with PTSD and don't even know it. Mm hmmm. Yeah.
(44:34):
It's community trauma, you know, as you know impacted by that,
I mean exposure to violence. PTSD is not just what
you did about what you witnessed and also heard. So
I don't think people understood the criterion of PTSD um
they were also understand and by curious trauma and all
(44:55):
those other aspects of it. So there are many layers
two to this and to your questions like what would
I infuse into the v A system. I would infuse that, like,
let's do some community work around people understanding and understanding
PTSD and this in this wholeness, not just in the
part where you're a veteran you went off the combat.
(45:16):
Yes you have PTSD, but other people who experience other
types of trauma have to work really hard to prove
that those are their traumas. What interesting dichonomy that is
being in those spaces? Well, before I let you go,
I wanted to ask you, because we're family and you've
seen me since obviously I was a little kid. Uh,
(45:39):
what if you could give people who are listening, because
folks are interesting interested in you know, my background, how
I grew up, and of course I talked about it
in the book Taking for Granted, But what would you
say about me then and now? What would your your
overarching concise analysis be. M I I'm gonna pause on
(46:06):
this because my heart just fluttered out of out of
my love for you and my respect for your path
and your journey. And I think people assume a lot
and take for granted, not not to pull away from
your book, but to plug it. Um for granted, um
(46:32):
your story and your why, you're why. I'm privy to
the why and to the story. So I get that,
I get the whole picture that is you. Um, but
people who meet you and are impressed and you do
(46:53):
have a lasting impression. But to feel the energy of
your story behind how you move and how you function,
and how you operate and why you move and why
you operate and why you function the way that you do.
It's not because you are your story. It's because you
(47:16):
have a story to tell. And I assume that sometimes
people either will want to put you in the past
with your narrative or in the presence of where they
want you to be or see you, and you are
living in your now and to experience you and your now.
(47:36):
That is what gives great honor to these authentic connections
that you have with others where they begin to understand
a little bit more of you as you permit them to.
That they respect your journey, which includes your story, but
they're also open to the next chapters as you have
(47:58):
them be not the way they need you to be.
And I think that knowing how proud you are and
not in pride of who you are as a person,
and in always discovering your becoming to honor that not
(48:19):
as an insecurity, that is the value that's driven by
your longing for more, more growth, more understanding, more wisdom,
and to share that with others who are open to
receiving it with open arms, not close fist like they're
wanting to fight you for it. Um. And so I've
(48:41):
seen how you've been with family, I've seen how you've
been with me in my journey with trauma and PTSD,
and I can say you're a delicate heart, um, and
you're a golden smile and the sun that shines through
you that like that shines through you. I hope people
(49:03):
always see that and respect it and not make assumptions
about it, and honor you, your narrative, your story, your
journey for that. But you have grown into this beautiful soul.
You've always had a beautiful soul, but you've grown into
this very strong man of substance. And that makes me proud. Wow,
(49:31):
that was that was pretty profound. Thank you, Thank you
for sharing. And I feel like I just went to
counseling with Dr Ola Antonia. Thank you for everything you
you mean to me, and you've been with me through
some of the more interesting phases of life. And I
appreciate your love, your commitment to always pushing me forward
(49:56):
and just being someone that I count on is one
of my closest and years. So I love you so much.
Thank you for joining me as such an honor to
have you on here, and thank you for all all
of what you do for yourself and your fellow veterans.
Thank you for joining out Loud with Gianno called Weell.
(50:24):
I want to thank dr Oland Antoyan Haines again for
a great interview. If you're enjoying the show, please leave
us a review and radis for fos stars on Apple Podcasts.
If you have any questions for me, please email me
at The out Loud at Ginger Street sixty dot com
and I'll try to answer them in our episodes. And
please sign up for my monthly newsletter at Ginger Street
sixty dot com Slash out Loud. You can also follow
me on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and palmer at Giano Caldwell.
(50:46):
And if you're interested in learning more about my story,
you please pick up a copy of my bestselling book
title Taken for Granted, How Conservatism Can Win Back to
Americans The Liberalism Failed. Special things to our producer John Cassio,
researcher Aaron Kleinman and executive do so. There's Debbie Myers
and speaker new Gingwich, all part of the Inglish three
sixty network.
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