The Missing Watch

A bold claim about a missing musical watch pits law enforcement against one another, as the ISP doubles down on its search for a truck-driving serial killer. Then, Phelps digs in and examines a lead from the earliest days of the investigation, hoping to discover why a key suspect was never arrested or charged.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Paper Ghosts is a production of iHeartRadio. Previously on Paper Ghosts.
Going down the highway between here and the next exit.
I talked myself in and out of calling the police
about a hundred times, and the last thought I had was,
if it was my daughter, I'd want to know. Back then,

(00:22):
my understanding was that to the extent that there were
any traces of DNA on anything like the blanket or
clothes or anything like that, the technology was such that
they just couldn't. It wasn't usable, right, There wasn't enough
of it. A lot of people were critical of the
publicity that was put out the States, and well, doesn't

(00:42):
it bother you? Yes, but I see her face, whether
I see it on a picture or whether I don't.
My name is em William Phelps. I'm an investigative journalist
and author more than forty true crime books. This is
season three Paper Ghosts in Plain Sight. Over the past

(01:11):
thirty years, a number of suspects have stood out in
Tammy Ziwiki's murder case. When I began my own investigation,
it was apparent that the semitruck driving serial killer types
who preyed upon young females in the late eighties and
early nineties were at the top of the list. There
was also Lonnie Dumott, the guy who found and helped

(01:33):
move Tammy's body from the roadside in Lawrence County, Missouri.
And then there was a lead that came in five
days after Tammy was reported missing in August of nineteen
ninety two. That tip from an eyewitness who said she
was driving eastbound on Interstate eighty when she saw a

(01:53):
man in a blue or green pickup truck parked behind
Tammy's car along the westbound side of the highway. It
was a lead that former ISP investigator and Marty McCarthy
believes was largely ignored. So what do we know about
this man? All slender, unshaven, just kind of disheveled, I

(02:17):
would say, And you've got to have ballpark hat, kind
of a typical denizen in a home, I mean, nondescriptive
in that sense. White guy. Marty believes to this day
that the guy driving that pickup truck is the best
suspect in Tammy's disappearance and murder. If you look at

(02:39):
all the details on paper, it's understandable why he appeared suspicious.
All the pieces seemed to fit when you break this
lead down, any investigator worth their weight would be drawn
to the guy. Still based on the sheer number of
tips about a white on my truck seen park near

(03:01):
Tammy's car, the esp was solely focused on finding an
eighteen wheeler, specifically one with rust colored stripes, essentially a
needle in a haystack. As the year came to an end,
Tammy's case had started to run cold. Then in early January,

(03:24):
a new call came into the tip line. Call comes
to the office from this woman who I don't know
if anybody recognized her or not, saying, hey, these people
they came to my office. It turned out the person
on the other end of the line was the same
woman who just four months earlier had called in the

(03:46):
tip about the blue or green pickup truck. She calls
back in, you know, and I gonna go out and
see her, and no one talked to her an intermediate
period of time. During this second call, the eyewitness claimed
that the man she had seen on the side of
the road with Tammy had actually shown up to her
place of work along with his wife. She has an

(04:07):
airy feeling about him from the get go. She told me,
this guy whoa I had my hair kind of went up. Guy,
it looks like the guy out of the road. Looks
like the guy she told me that, And I don't
think he obviously wouldn't have recognized her, but she was
somewhat free by that. He just kind of sits there,
Marty says. The person the eyewitness identified was a thirty

(04:30):
one year old man named Lonnie beer Brought, not to
be confused with Lonnie Dumott, the repairman who found Tammy's body. Rather,
this Lonnie Lonnie beer Brought was a former semitruck driver
and a convicted felon who had been ordered to serve
three concurrent twenty year sentences for armed robbery. He ended

(04:53):
up getting paroled in July nineteen ninety. Is a trucker
violent felon got a green pickup truck a few miles
from the scene. Lived in Sharkozi, sal Peru. According to
the esp the beer Brought family owned property about ten

(05:15):
miles from the stretch of highway in Sarcoxi, Missouri, where
Tammy's body was found. Sarcoxi wasn't a heavily traffic city
at the time, still isn't today. There are only about
fifteen hundred residents, and back in nineteen ninety two, the
only logical route off the highway to get to the
beer brought residents was Exit thirty three, the same exit

(05:39):
where Tammy's body was found. More importantly, Lonnie beer Brott
also had family five hundred miles away in Peru, Illinois,
the neighboring town from where Tammy went missing. He was
from that area as well, and the ISP confirmed that
on the day Tammy vanished August twenty third, nineteen ninety two,

(06:00):
beer Brott was just minutes from the spot on I
eighty where she was last seen. I've done this long time,
and I just thought, whoa bingle. I can't say everybody
else did, but how many coincidences can there be? Here?
So they decided to go down the whole task force
to Missouri, and for whatever reason, I didn't get a

(06:23):
signed to go down there. I don't know why. I'll
take who knows. I didn't care. I had some stuff
to do here, and they took as I recall, they
took a lot of physical evidence out of there. Did
they bring him in for questioning? They come back and
they bring him in, interview him, take his blood, take

(06:45):
all the samples, DNA all this kind of ship. At
the time, Marty was actually out in the field assigned
to handle other parts of the Ziwiki investigation, so the
responsibility of documenting and chasing leads fell on other members
of the task force, including one of Marty's colleagues, who
questioned Lonnie beer Brott at the station. So he says, yeah,

(07:07):
I interviewed him. He's just spacing as hell. He's just like,
doesn't say anything, and it was just kind of a
space cadet type of thing which happened. Meantime, while he
is there at the State Police, incomes his brother and
makes a big scene saying, hey, where's you got my brother?

(07:29):
What are you doing? What are you making a big
scene in the State Police about where he's supposed to be,
which always interesting. Newspapers reported that beer Brott's wife and
d laws were interviewed. Investigators searched through the beer Brott's
trash and reviewed their phone records. But before anyone on
the task force could further pursue their strongest lead yet,

(07:53):
Marty and his colleague were hit with a surprising development
all of a sudden in February, they walk in were
dissolving the task force fifteen sixteen. Guy. They had been
taken from other districts. There's other cases building up. Commanders
are saying blah blah, blah blah. I can understand that,
and we've been there for a number of months. But here,

(08:15):
in my view, we get the best lead we've ever had.
By early nineteen ninety three, the fourteen member task force
investigating Tammy's murder had completely disbanded, citing a lack of
progress as the main reason. Investigators vowed to follow any
additional leads as they came in, but the number of

(08:35):
law enforcement working the case was significantly cut. To me,
it's a clear example of the department's mismanagement early in
this investigation. Why take a team of seasoned investigators chasing
a lead their supervisor deemed one of the most relevant
off the case. This always bugged me, but I'm told

(08:56):
no one in certain terms to stay out of this case,
and I do because I know what those will do.
By May of nineteen ninety three, eight months after Tammy
Ziwiki's murder, police said they had followed up on more
than six hundred and fifty leads and twenty five hundred
truck sightings to no avail. A police spokesperson at the

(09:18):
time said they just ran out of leads. Because of this,
the Illinois State Police did something it hadn't yet done.
Investigators publicly released a list of items belonging to Tammy
that were missing from her car and person when her
body was found. Among them Tammy's pair of round, wire

(09:40):
framed eyeglasses, a woman's watch that played rain drops keep
falling on My head, a pair of gray A six
running shoes, a large brown faux alligator skin purse, Tammy's
driver's license, and her cannon EOS thirty five millimeter camera
and lens. The spokesperson noted that the ISP had been

(10:03):
aware of the missing items all long, but quote, we
have no new suspects and no new leads, so it
doesn't matter anymore. Quote their hope that someone had purchased
one of the items at a pawn shop or would
see one of them and call in. After Marty McCarthy

(10:31):
was removed from the task force in nineteen ninety three,
he eventually became the commander of the ISP's the vision
of internal investigations for all state employees in the Chicago area.
All along he never stopped thinking about what happened the
Tammy's at wiki. When he retired in two thousand and one,

(10:54):
he amped up his involvement in the case and became
determined to find out more about the man in the
pickup truck. He believes that Lonnie beer Brott was that
man and had something to do with Tammy's murder. Marty
eventually connected with Tammy's mom to share his theory and

(11:14):
discuss the investigation. For him, it was about getting this
Ziwicki family the answers they deserved and following evidence he
believed had been overlooked. I'm up in Michigan on vacation.
I'm playing tennis with my wife and I stopped. I said, God,
damn it, I just can't live with this. So what
are you doing? We're playing tennis? I cannot live with

(11:35):
this bad. I gotta do something. I gotta call missus Wickie,
just driving me crazy. I go call her and I said, Hello,
it was Morney McCarthy. Blah blah blah. I said, I said,
have you ever heard of Lonnie beer brod No, although
she wasn't happy with the investigation at that time, I said, well,
Lonnie beer rot was a suspect in this case, a

(11:57):
very strong suspect in this case. I just wanted to
know if you knew, and if you didn't know, I
wonder why. And I personally believe he should be pursued.
And she said, I agree with you. I'm on your side.
And we took off for like twenty years together. And
as talking to people as part of his own investigation,

(12:18):
Marty made a point of reaching out to the eyewitness
who led investigators to beer Brought in the first place.
He trusted her account and deemed her to be extremely
credible because her husband was a prominent member of the
law enforcement community. It was during one of their meetings
in the early two thousands that Marty claims the eyewitness

(12:39):
revealed new details to him about her encounter with the
beer Brought family a decade earlier, details which shifted his
investigation into high gear. As he explains it, the eyewitness
said she found herself engaged in conversation with Lonnie beer
Brott's wife on the day they came into her workplay

(13:00):
in nineteen ninety three. Missus bear Rock is talking. Lonnie's
sitting there morrows and the wife is rattling on and
she starts talking about Lonnie gave me this watch. It
plays a musical tune, and she kind of showed it
to me, and and you were seeing it, and I

(13:20):
couldn't see it on it like that. She didn't play
a tune for me, so I go, holy shit, Holy shit.
It's important to note that the eyewitness did not mention
a watch in her statement to the police. It wasn't
until nearly a decade later, during her meeting with Marty,

(13:42):
and long after it was publicized that Tammy's watch was missing,
that she told the story of Lonnie's wife wearing one.
How many fucking watches play a tune. I want to
know what that tune is. Let's find out. If that
is rain drops, that's the killer to me. Just that's it.
And all we gotta do is find that out. Here's

(14:05):
Tammy's mom, Joanne. Do you remember the type of watch
she was wearing. Did the watch play that song rain
gain drops keep falling on my head? She was wearing
that watch for sure? Yeah. And did it have a
green watch band? Do you remember? I don't remember for sure.
Grein was her favorite color, so I'm sure it was

(14:27):
a green watch band. It was just a simple watch.
It wasn't anything fancy. If I remember her saying she
needed a watch to keep todd because she had to
move from one place to another set but you recall
it playing rain drops keep falling on your head. During

(14:48):
the latter part of twenty twenty one and throughout twenty
twenty two, I made repeated attempts to reach out to
the eyewitness to verify Marty's story about the watch. She
never re bonded. What worries me about her information is
that I'm hearing its secondhand and have no convincing way
to corroborate it. She seems credible, but it's important to

(15:13):
note that the beer brought identification, the watch story, and
the sighting of the pickup truck all come from her
and her alone. What I have been able to verify
through police documents is that the eyewitness did call the
IP Task Force in January nineteen ninety three. She said

(15:33):
the Beer Brought's visit to her workplace occurred the previous
month in December, and that Lonnie's wife did most of
the talking for him. That the couple was originally from
the LaSalle County area of Illinois, but as of December
nineteen ninety two, had still maintained property in Lawrence County, Missouri.
Here's Tammy's brother, Todd Zuwiki. Obviously, over time, we've had

(15:57):
some people who look like plausible suspects. You know, there
was the whole story with Lonnie beer Brought and the
watch in the life. You know, kind of not quite
clear what that evident, you know, where that all led,
but that was who a lot of people thought was
the most pausible suspect. Marty says. The witness also told
him something he'd never heard before. That after the esp

(16:22):
paid a visit to the Beer brought residence and brought
Lonnie in for questioning, Lonnie and one of his brothers
showed up to the witness's place of work upset. The
next day or very soon after that, they both show
up unannounced. She's scared. Who called the police? Who called?
Who told us son of my brother? You know, it
made a big scene there, and that kind of thing

(16:42):
to me. Oh shit, Now, I'm not even sure the
state police knows that second part. But my view was,
I I haven't I can't write a police report. I'm retired.
I called the States Attorney and he said, oh yes,
sah but I said, I'll be right, I'll come done
her right now. So I sit out there in his
waiting room for an hour, about an hour, and I'm

(17:04):
being blown off. So I go to the sectarise, Hey,
look here's the deal. Well he's in there with a meeting.
I gotta say, yeah, okay, fine, I'm gonna go over
to the newspaper with this information. I'm gonna give this something.
He didn't want to talk to. Be fine, I'll be
over the newspaper he comes out. Marty's next move would
turn him into a polarizing figure. He made good on
his promise to contact the media. If you google Tammy's case,

(17:28):
you'll see his name all over it. He's been very
critical of how the ISP handled the investigation. Unfortunately, I
can't interview Lonnie beer Abrod. He died in two thousand
and two while serving time in prison on unrelated charges.

(17:48):
When Marty sought out Lonnie in the years after he retired,
the state's attorney explained that Lonnie had passed away and
that interest in him as a suspect fizzle. Marty told
me he didn't understand why investigators had not pursued beer
Brott more aggressively even after his death. He even pleaded

(18:08):
with the prosecutor to pursue a case, but was told
protocol required the state police to bring the case forward
for prosecution, something they never did. What I said, these
guys are not going to bring this case. They don't
believe it. And this was the information. You don't have
to believe me. Go get this information. No, I doesn't
work that way. Why now, I said, get a grand
jury in here. I just couldn't believe it. As I

(18:35):
began to look into every aspect of the early investigation,
one of the first things I did was identify who
exactly was responsible for following up on the eyewitnesses tip.
Turns out it was an ISP investigator named Bill Hamill, who,
like Marty, was a member of the Task Force. Folks

(18:57):
I've spoken to describe Hamill as a respect of guy
and a thorough investigator, but Marty believes Hamil dropped the
ball on this one. On the official tip sheet, which
I obtained from a source, there's a hand drawn star
next to the eyewitness's name. It was put there, according

(19:17):
to Marty, by an IP supervisor and was meant for Hamil.
Marty claims the star in and of itself was important.
Marty says. The eyewitness told him that no one reached
out to her after she called in the initial tip,
and that by the time investigators finally got around to
interview in Lonnie Beer brought months later, he could have

(19:40):
destroyed crucial evidence. By then. All I know is that
they found the vehicle a pickup truck. It had been
sold and cleaned, and they do a crime scene on that.
They find his house. He has sold it, cleaned it
and left. To clarify, Beer brought wife's Toyota pickup truck

(20:01):
was blue. Still, did the ISP miss a crucial window
of opportunity to connect the Lonnie Beer brought the Tammy's murder?
That tip was followed up on. Every single tip is documented,
every single one. Jeff Padilla, a retired ISP lieutenant who

(20:22):
you've heard in previous episodes, is adamant at the department
followed up on every credible lead that came in. They
had to. It was not only part of their job
but standard policy. There was a pickup truck recovered and analyzed,
but the information related to the pickup truck didn't coincide,

(20:44):
and basically it was eliminated. Padilla told me there was
and still is evidence that was never publicly released, evidence
that helped the ISP way how seriously they viewed Lonnie Beer,
brought as a suspect, already says once he heard the
eyewitnesses watch story, he sprung into action and went further

(21:05):
up the chain of command. I called out there and
talked to this guy's supervisor, Hamil supervisor. He didn't know
any about the case. He's a new guy. I said, hey,
you know, this woman is whitness. He hasn't been interviewed
in ten goddamn years. Now there's new information. You got
to send somebody out there to talk to her. I said, well,
you see, okay, guess who he said, hail. So Hamil

(21:28):
goes out there at interviews, and the whole contain already
I talked to her about this. The whole thing is
McCarthy should have nothing to do with this. He's he's retired,
he's got don't know anything about this. The whole thing
was a downer on me. What information he got, I
don't know. Did she give him the watch story. I
presume she did, but I never saw that report. But

(21:50):
he's already got a blown out. It's a watch Watch.
You know, he just blown this thing off, and if
he wrote a report of that, I never saw it.
I tracked down Bill Hamil late twenty twenty two. He's
long since retired and now lives in the South with
his wife. I spoke with them both and found the
couple to be kind and more than willing to be

(22:11):
on the podcast, But a medical condition prevented Bill from
consenting to a formal interview with me. Because of that,
I worried about his recollections and felt it would be
unethical to air any part of our conversation. I've driven

(22:39):
down highways, and I've worked over and I've seen remote
canyons and places along the way where a guy could
pull over his vehicle and as a right circumstance, walk
out there and get rid of whatever he wanted, and
get back in his vehicle and drive off. Keith Hunter Jesperson,
otherwise known as as the Happy Face Killer, was a

(23:02):
semi truck driving serial killer who bound, raped, and strangled
eight women while criss crossing the country between nineteen ninety
and nineteen ninety five. What was the farthest distance you
ever traveled and the longest period of time you ever
traveled with a body in your truck the longest period

(23:22):
of time. Did you ever have to a body for
a couple of days for example? No, No, one never did.
Um maybe one hundred and fifty miles two in a
mile and the body was what in the cab with you?
And why did you hold on to the body for
that long looking for a place to put it. That's

(23:45):
one of hundreds of conversations I've had with jess Person
while he serves three consecutive life sentences at Oregon State Penitentiary.
And basically, a killer instant is based upon your comfort zone,
and this is my comfort zone is a tool to
use and murder. I first connected with him in twenty
ten after looking into his murder cases and studying the

(24:08):
crimes of those like him. There's been closed the area.
It's like it's like my visers fell into a hole.
Jesperson is not and has never been, a suspect in
Tammy Ziwiki's murder. But as I continued my investigation, it
was hard not to think back to the conversations I
had with him. To me, it was WoT the game

(24:31):
to the fact that I'll just see whether or not
discussing get in my truck or not. How he rationalized
his horrific crimes and managed to evade law enforcement for
as long as he did. Nobody who I was. Nobody
had an idea if I even existed in the third place.
And of course, if evil happens and someone must be

(24:51):
responsible to why not waying to go to me? I know?
The trail of murder left behind by a truck driver
like jesperson offers valuable insight into Tammy's case. From the start,
police investigating Tammy's murder looked at the possibility that a
semitruck driver killed and dumped her body somewhere along their

(25:13):
truck route, and for what it's worth, it's a strong theory.
Several well known serial killers were operating at the time.
In June nineteen ninety two, just two months before Tammy
was murdered, three women forty seven year old Cheryl Leavitt,
nineteen year old Susie Streeter, and eighteen year old Stacy McCall,

(25:35):
disappeared from Cheryl's home, about thirty miles from where Tammy's
body was found. The women were more famously known as
the Springfield Three, and to date they have not been
found What's more, Susie and Stacy were young and blonde
like Tammy. Were the cases connected. Here's Tammy's brother Todd's wiki.

(26:03):
Most of the time, when you hear these stories come out,
it's these interstate truckers who also kind of live on
the fringe of society and move around, and you know,
nobody really knows that much about them or where they
go and when they go. There there were other truckers
who would come up. Bruce Mendenhall was a name I recall.
Bruce Mendenhall was a trucker from southern Illinois who became

(26:26):
a solid suspect for esp investigators. Mendenhall was known as
the truck stop killer because he preyed upon vulnerable women,
mainly hitchhikers and women hanging around truck stops. He was
arrested in Tennessee in two thousand and seven when he
was fifty six, and seemed to tick many of the
boxes in Tammy's case. After his arrest, Mendenhall even confessed

(26:50):
to six murders in several states. Tammy's was not one
of them. Still, with guys like Mendenhall, it's difficult to
fully know how much they'rewithholding from authorities. For example, in
twenty twenty one, a decade after Mendenhall had already been

(27:11):
convicted of murder, he was connected by DNA to another
murder beyond the sixth he had been tied to. What
I have kind of reconciled myself too, was the idea
that if this was the typical profile of a sort
of a transient trucker or somebody like that who lived

(27:33):
on the edge of society, I've just assumed by this
point the guy's probably dead or jail for something else,
or died in jail for something else, or something like that.
It's just not the kind of person who I would
expect to have still been around and alive to be
an active suspect and that sort of thing. At least
that's been my working assumption. Here's former LaSalle County State's

(27:56):
Attorney Brian Town with the state police followed a lot
of lead with regard to serial killers, you know, that
have been caught throughout the country that may have had
ties to our area at that time frame, and all
of those leads turned up nothing. Every time police thought
they had a trucker who might have been responsible for

(28:17):
Tammy's murder, the evidence wasn't there to back it up.
In one instance, a forty five year old truck driver
from Colorado, William James Banister, was arrested in July nineteen
ninety three for attempting to kill a fourteen year old girl.
Law enforcement found bloody clothes, including under garments, in the

(28:38):
cab of his truck and thought they might be Tammy's,
but Banister was ultimately cleared. This scenario happened over and
over again in Tammy's case. Investigators thought they had a
solid lead on a trucker who fit the bill, only
to rule them out be a blood, DNA or circumstantial evidence.

(29:02):
I made a point to ask Brian town about Marty
McCarthy's theory on Lonnie beer Brod. It was important to
me to understand what other investigators thought about Marty's dogged
pursuit of the man he believed to beat Tammy's killer.
Now you know Marty McCarthy correct, Oh, yes, how would
you describe Marty enthusiastic? I would dedicated, always pursuing the truth,

(29:32):
but you know, at times maybe a little bit too
talkative during the course of a bending investigation. I mean
Marty blamed Bill Hamill for a lot of the problems
early on in this investigation when you look at some
of the mistakes that were made, and mistakes are made

(29:53):
in every investigation. I'm not trying to hammer anybody here.
I'm just saying that, you know, and I know that
mistakes are made and every investigation. It's just a nature
of human beings. Sure, and he blamed Hamil for a
lot of that. What would you say to that, Well,
you know, Master Sergeant McCarty was he was very interested

(30:15):
in this case. He was very almost consumed by this case.
He was revealing information to the family and to the
public that really hurt law enforcement's efforts to maintain a
proper investigation and the integrity the investigation. And I can't

(30:36):
speak to his motives. I sincerely don't know what the
grudge was between McCarty and Hamil, except to say that
in thirty years in law enforcement, I can say that
you know, every police department, and including the State police,
they have their their moments where you know, one person
isn't too happy with another and and they're they're very

(30:56):
critical of one another. It's a it's a it's a
very emotional profession, and you know, sometimes you know, those
emotions get in the way. I'm solely focused on the truth.
There's been too much misinformation within Tammy's a wiki's case.

(31:17):
Part of the process included running down any holes in
Marty's narrative. For me, anything and everything I could learn
about Lonnie beer Brought felt important, if for no other
reason than to finally clear his name in the court
of public opinion. If beer Brought was a noteworthy suspect
and could be circumstantially connected to Tammy's case, I needed

(31:40):
to understand how it fit and why the guy was
never charged. And for that I needed to find and
interview one person, Lonnie beer Brott's ex wife. So I
made calls, sent emails, left messages, and even knocked on

(32:01):
her door. And while I waited for her to respond,
another name kept nagging at me. One that came up
again and again as I spoke to members of law
enforcement and others who closely watched Tammy's case. Lonnie Demot
the other Lonnie, the guy who found Tammy's body and

(32:25):
claimed that he had helped police carry it from the
ditch to the roadside. Some were skeptical of Lonnie's narrative,
including the administrators of the who Killed Tammy ziwiki Facebook group.
The first post he made was in September of twenty twenty,
says I'm Lonnie Dumot. I'm the one who found Tammy.

(32:47):
Patrick Jones, the creator of the Facebook group, says Lonnie
Dumot's online behavior in recent years has raised a number
of red flags. He came in, he was posting like
a son of a bitch, and then people were all
of a sudden, everybody was asking the questions like you
wouldn't believe, and he's answering them. I asked them. A

(33:08):
million questions come to mind. How did you see anything
strange or out of place? Was there any tire tracks?
How was it lighting at the scene? Just curious, and
he just disappeared. I think he wanted to confess to something.
In my opinion that he wants to say, Hey, here's
what happened. As it turned out, armchair sluice weren't the

(33:31):
only people interested in Lonnie Damot's version of events that day. Hi,
mister Damot, money and there's with the FBI at a
job in Missouri. And when you have an opportunity, did
you please give me a call back. Thank you, mister
Damont on the next episode of Paper Ghosts. The reasons

(33:55):
given for him coming off the highway depends on what
source you read, so we have some discrepancies as to
what actually was going on there. Well, I think you know.
I mean, it's always easy to tell the truth right
when you start making up stories. It'll change over time.
I mean, if you know, if I told you'll lie
today and you came back to me five years later,

(34:17):
I'm asking the same question, I may not respond the
same way. The direction we went thereafter was because of
the information we had received. I don't think that he's
been rolled out by the law enforcement, but I think
he's got something to do with it. It's just too coincidental.

(34:38):
If you are enjoying Paper Ghosts, please listen to my
other podcast, Crossing the Line with em William Phelps, where
I use the same storytelling elements you've heard in Paper
Ghosts and cover missing person and murder cases. Paper Ghosts
is written and executive produced by me and William Phelps
and iHeart executive producer Christina Everett. Additional writing by our

(35:03):
supervising producer Julia Weaver. Our Associate producer is Darby Masters,
audio editing and mixing by Christian Bowman and Abu zafar Our.
Series theme number four four two is written and performed
by Thomas Phelps and Tom Mooney. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,

(35:26):
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows.