November 5, 2025 • 52 mins
As family members panic without word from teens Vincent and Shelly, Vincent’s father heads out to search for the kids. Meanwhile, a local private investigator gets involved in the case 40-plus years later and starts stirring up the hornet’s nest, creating a groundswell of new information. Phelps steps into the fray to sort fact from fiction—before discovering things aren’t always what they seem.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Then you would go up to the hill, you know,
and the nickname of it was piss.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Hill, and everybody knew it.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Yeah, everybody knew it. Yes, Yeah, everybody that was on
the main drag cruising around. Yes, they would know where
that's at.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
In every murder case, we get the media's version of events,
the story law enforcement pushes out, and the narrative underneath
it all those involved actually lived. And how old are you?
Speaker 3 (00:36):
When were you born?
Speaker 1 (00:37):
I was born in nineteen sixty five, so am I'm
almost sixty. I'll be sixty next month.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
And you grew up in Weatherford for.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
The most part, Yeah, I grew up in Louisiana. My
dad was in the military, so I grew up in
partially in Louisiana. I got relatives there and then Texas. Yeah,
for basically Weatherford. Yeah, for most of my time. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
I'm calling this source Teddy. He doesn't want me to
use his real name. Offering anonymity to those living in
fear for decades allows them to speak freely. Teddy lived
in Weatherford in March nineteen eighty three. He was in
town on the night Shelley Colliflower and Vincent Tejerina. We're
(01:24):
out on their first card day in Vincent's father's nineteen
seventy nine Monte Carlo, and I understand there was an
area where quote unquote you would cruise.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
So you know this is like in the like from
the seventies from I was, you know, I cruised the
main drag from like seventy nine to around eighty two
ish eighty three ish, that's my high school years. And
it was in South Maine, Texas, which we have. You know,
most Texas towns have these courthouses, and it's usually the
(02:04):
downtown square area. But for us, where the cruise was
was South Maine, and it would go We have EYE
twenty that's out there. It's I twenty between the courthouse.
If you look at a map of weather for Texas,
so anywhere between the courthouse and South Main Street all
the way to I twenty and then that area there
(02:27):
would be the cruise.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Driving off the I twenty exit ramp, you'd head straight
toward downtown Weatherford, where at the end of that main
drag an elaborate courthouse building greet you welcomingly. We know
the kids were last seen along that strip near nine
pm to ten pm, somewhere in that neighborhood witnesses reported
(02:53):
seeing them at the Sonic and a few other local
hotspots for kids in town along North and South Main Street.
They seemed happy in a good mood out by themselves
for the first time.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
But on the end of the cruise were the specific
cruise there was a place they call Piss Hill, and
that's where kids It was kind of a it's still
there today. It's a like an electrical power plant type
thing with a fence going around it, and then on
the other side is kind of an open dirt field.
It's setting on the top of kind of a hill,
(03:38):
and that's where you would go to go hang out,
you know, while your cruise of the main drag, and
then you get kind of bored with that, and then
you go up on this hill. Guys would take a
leak or whatever, have a few drinks or whatever.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Hence the now iconic name of the place Piss Hill, and.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Then you go back to the main drag and cruise
the main drag because kids would go up there and
hang out. It's kind of a secluded place on top
of the hill.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Did you hang around Shelley and Vince in that kind of.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Crowd, I didn't know them until after, you know, I
think it was like only three to four days after
their murder is whenever I became familiar with them. However,
the night of I was cruising with a friend of
mine and we were in her car, and she happened
(04:32):
to have a black Monte Carlo.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Remember Vincent borrowed his father's green Monte Carlo. We know
for a fact that he picked Shelley up at Debbie
Billingsley's house at six thirty pm and they left around
six forty five pm. Two sources I spoke to say
they saw them on the strip at nine thirty pm.
(04:58):
One source claims they were up at piss Hill parked
near nine pm.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
And so I'm cruising the main drag around let's say,
do to do about seven point thirty to around midnightish,
Me and her kind of cruising the main drag, and
so the cars that she was in a I said,
an eighty something model Monte Carlo, seventy nine eighty eighty
two Monte Carlo. And we happened to notice other people
(05:28):
driving the similar Monte Carlo, and Vincent and Shelley they
happened to have a Monte Carlo. I thought the car
was black, but I've been told it was a different color.
But it was a dark color, so at night with
the street lights, it looked like it made the car
look like it was black. So to me, I've always
(05:48):
thought it was a black Monte Carlo, exactly the kind
of car we were driving around in. But there were
three Monte Carlos that looked identical, the one we were driving,
the one Shelley and Vincent were driving, and then there
was another one. I'm not sure who was driving that one.
So we did see. I did see Shelley and Vincent,
(06:09):
not knowing their names at the time. I did see
their car a couple of times because everybody made that
same loop going down the main drag. We make everybody
make that same cruise drag going up and down and
stuff like that, and every now and we pull into
parking lots and talk to friends and then go back
on the main drag and drive up and down the street.
(06:29):
And I've seen their car probably about time frame, if
you will, maybe from off and on, maybe seven thirty
to maybe nine thirty something like that, maybe ten thirty,
I'm not sure, that's kind of a timeframe. When I
did see them driving the main drag, if you will,
the cruise, the south main cruise.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
So and while you were up there, what time was it.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Well, we went to Piss Hill a couple of times.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
This comment is important. We are talking forty two years ago,
and Piss Hill was one of those places off the
main drag you'd circle back to at intervals throughout a
night of cruising. So the witness is coming forward to
explain that they saw the kids up there, could have
(07:24):
seen them at different times, and in a case like this,
a timeline becomes essential, which is why I wanted to
build it out right away.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Yeah, I can't say for sure, but we're there from
off and on. We may have gotten something to eat.
We cruised around, I know at one time around I
don't know. The times are this kind of so long ago,
probably about seven thirty, eight thirty, nine thirty we made
a stop there. So one time we stopped and then
(07:59):
we left, and then we went back up there again,
maybe one or two other times, so the timeframe would
be from seven thirty to midnight something to twelve thirty.
Maybe we were Okay, So there's an electrical power plant
up there, and it's fenced in it's still there today.
It was starting to rain, the storms were coming in,
(08:22):
and the clouds were coming in. The storms are coming in,
and me and lady friend I was with at the time,
we pulled in facing the west, which we're on top
of this hill, and we're watching the storms kind of
come into the you know, where we were at, and
(08:43):
I noticed some lightning strikes, I noticed some rain, and
we didn't go too far off because because of the mud,
you know, we didn't want to get into an area
that was muddy. And actually that little the road there
where whatever that road's called, I can't remember offhand. On
the opposite side is where I've seen some trucks four
wheel draw truck type trucks driving around over there, and
(09:04):
there would be cars coming in and out. It's real
dark up there at night, and you can't see. All
you can do is kind of see headlights, and the
only thing I could make out was like the trucks
in and out.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
That storm, the heavy rains and thunder, it's all going
to play an important role in re examining this case
and within what Teddy tells me. So let's go back
to that night. Teddy and his girlfriend are sitting in
that vehicle talking watching the storms roll in something of
(09:44):
a statewide pastime in the flatlands of Texas. They are
just across the street from a small parking area up
at Piss Hill where you could pull off for a
quick stop, which is actually on Cleeburn Avenue. The back
of the vehicle, Teddy is sitting in faces that pull
off the front of the vehicle, looking out into the horizon.
(10:07):
This pull off is a section of dirt and gravel
about half the size of a football field, maybe fifty
square yards long, half that wide. There's a telephone pole
to the back of the lot. Fields of foliage surrounding
three sides with a slight decline heading down toward Tin
(10:28):
Top Road, and what is a power plant across the
street where Teddy and his girl are sitting.
Speaker 4 (10:37):
We are.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
Up on the hill facing west and we're over there
by the electrical power plant side, which was kind of
had some gravel on the behind me. I was looking
through the rear view mirrors. I knew there were vehicles
coming in and out on the other side. And that
area over there is kind of a i'd say like
an open parking lot, an old abandoned school or some
(11:03):
kind of abandoned property. I'm not really sure what was
back there.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Across Cleeburne Avenue from the pis Hill pull off was
an old school. It's nothing but rubble now, but in
nineteen eighty three it was still a standing structure. Some
I have spoken to have speculated that Vincent and Shelley
could have actually parked over there first, behind the building,
(11:32):
because why park with your girl right there out in
the open if you had plans on getting frisky, which
we have to consider could have been part of their plan.
As Teddy and his girl are sitting watching the thunderstorm,
he hears.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Something and me and her are talking, and I hear
the rain coming in the lightning strikes and stuff like that.
So I start listening to the thunder. For whatever reason,
(12:12):
it's got kind of quiet, and all of a sudden,
the thunder started. Thunderstrikes were happening, and then the rain
would stop, then start raining stop, And then I was
listening to the thunder, and this is what caught my attention.
I'm sitting here listening to the thunder, and then I
hear I hear the what a what? The sound of
a thunder sounds like rumbling through the sky, and during
(12:38):
the same time as a thunderstrike. It seemed like I
was hearing gunshots like I would hear like i'd hear
the thunder, and then I'd hear like a gunshot, But
the gunshot was coming We're facing west, it was coming
across the street from it sounded like it was coming
behind where I was at, face on the east side,
(12:59):
or where I was at. And then I heard maybe.
So the first time, I'm sitting there going well, that
thunder sounds odd, that sounds weird, and so I'm kind
of crouching down in the seat. The lady was with
girl at the time. I guess I didn't want to
startle she didn't notice it, and I think I may
have said something, hey, did you hear that? And she
(13:22):
didn't notice it, So I said, well, I don't want
to spook her. So she was sitting pretty low in
the seat already, and so I started kind of easing
down into the seat and I was really listening, and
then I heard it again. I heard like a thunder noise.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
In Texas, you grow up around firearms. You learn to
distinguish between the sound of a rifle and a pistol.
You know the sound of rolling thunder across the plains,
and it sure doesn't sound like a gunshot. That noise
was so distinctly different than the thunder that Teddy instinctively
(14:02):
crouched down in his seat, thinking somebody was firing a
weapon in their direction. He was certain of it.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
And then I heard what sounded like a gunshot, and
then I think I may have heard it maybe one
or two more times, and then that was it. Previously
on paper.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
Ghosts, this is not real.
Speaker 5 (14:34):
This is not real. You know, they're not my Kelly, no,
you know, and it's just like a oh, I cannot
even tell you what it feels.
Speaker 6 (14:44):
Shelling was fourteen, I mean in Vincent was sixteen, and
these were kids, and we're just trying to get answers
to the family and they've been denied any answers from whether
for a few days.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
He stayed there for a while.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
One o'clock rolls, around two o'clock. He goes out again,
looking again, and the next time we started with in
the funeral.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
My name is Emi William Phelps.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
I'm an investigative journalist and the New York Times bestselling
author of dozens of true crime books. This is season
five of Paper Ghosts. The Texas Team murders. Drive along
(15:47):
South Main Street, hang a right onto Bethel Road, and
you come to Tintop on your left. As you drive
up ten Top, you pass a field as the road
begins a brie incline. Maybe a quarter mile from there.
On the right is that massive power grid plan the
(16:08):
area where my source Teddy was parked with his girl
and heard what he believed to be three gunshots. It
looks like anywhere in the US dollarge dealership. It occurred
to me as I drove up tent Top, maybe more
as a father than some dude investigating a cold case,
(16:30):
that Vincent's dad, Vince Senior, must have gone through hell
during the early morning hours of March twenty sixth, nineteen
eighty three, as he set out looking for the kids
after they failed to show up at Debbie Billingsley's house
the previous night. Vincent Senior had to know in his
(16:53):
gut something was wrong, and that hell Vincent Senior went
through as he drove all over town looking for them,
would only get worse as the sun rose that early
morning and there was still no word from the kids,
And so you you spent a lot of time at
the Tejerina house, Am I right?
Speaker 7 (17:16):
We spent a lot of time with all family.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Yes, And so talk to me about that family dynamic,
the atmosphere, what you would do. Tell me a story
or two of how you would show love to each other.
Speaker 7 (17:29):
Well, we were obviously really close.
Speaker 4 (17:31):
We spent almost every single weekend together with not just
one family, but like four or five families together. We
would go to the lake, we would go over to Vincent's.
You know, he had a ranch. Well I considered it
a ranch because it was just you know, a whole
bunch of acreage and they had, you know, their blommables.
Speaker 7 (17:48):
That little Vincent was crazy for the Efatha.
Speaker 4 (17:53):
They had moved into a small little trailer until they
you know, he made enough money to build their house. So,
you know, he had his own construction or I think
it was a painting company.
Speaker 7 (18:07):
So he did a.
Speaker 4 (18:08):
Lot of work, you know for businesses in Weatherford and
they built their house. So when they built their house,
I used to go and spend more time with Lily
because she was my age and Vincent was I think
three years older than I was.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
I spoke to one of Vincent Tejerina's family members, who
doesn't want me using her name for fear of being
harassed or worse. She grew up with Vincent. Was there
on the day he left with Shelley on their first
card date, and will never forget the overwhelming panic that
(18:48):
ensued when word began to spread that the kids had
not come home. I asked her what kind of kid
Vincent was.
Speaker 4 (19:01):
He was very, very caring, very sweet. He was very protective,
you know, of his family. He honestly, he was an
enigma because he was a perfect ideal kid.
Speaker 7 (19:13):
You know. He helped his dad with the business.
Speaker 4 (19:15):
He was straighting student, he was in the martial arts,
He raised those cattle. He you know, helped raise his sisters.
It was there wasn't anything that he wouldn't do. He
was just very smart and sweet person.
Speaker 7 (19:29):
I was helping people.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Vincent Junior had the admiration of his peers, respected his
parents and elders, and had this unassailable love for his
baby's sister.
Speaker 4 (19:44):
Instance, he actually built this, you know house. My cousin
was like, oh, he does a house for me. Let
you know, she'd come over and see it. And so
I went over to see it, and she wasn't lying.
He was almost literally a small version of a house.
I had electric, it had blooming, but it was her
clubhouse that he made for her for her birthday.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Yeah. I was told that he loved her so much
that he took her everywhere he went.
Speaker 4 (20:08):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah he did because that.
Speaker 7 (20:11):
Was his little sister.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
He was protecting her always, and he just loved hanging out.
Speaker 7 (20:15):
He was just he has such a big heart, you know.
Speaker 4 (20:18):
And so if she went, then I would go, you know,
because I was, you know, with her as well, and
he was.
Speaker 7 (20:28):
You know, really caring. He would do anything for her.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
And did he talk about having any problems with anybody
in town, in school, et cetera.
Speaker 7 (20:37):
No, he never did, because nobody ever had a problem
with him.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
What about school? How how did that go for him?
Did he like it? Did he What did he want
to do when he grew up?
Speaker 7 (20:47):
Well, he had he had a lot of big dreams.
Speaker 4 (20:49):
He was going to help his father with his business,
so he could you know, expand and be a larger
business and help his father run that. That was his
dream to make sure that, you know, his family was
always taking care of So when Vincent was working, he
was working alongside him to build that dream. That's why
he started showing the Brahma bulls because he wanted to
(21:10):
make that extra money to put back into the family business.
He loved martial arts.
Speaker 7 (21:15):
I do remember that, and I started taking martial arts
just because he did, you know.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
And was he good at it?
Speaker 7 (21:22):
He was really good at it. Yes.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
And he could protect himself.
Speaker 7 (21:27):
Yes, or against one person.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Yes, big kid. Was he a big kid?
Speaker 7 (21:31):
No, he was not a big kid at all.
Speaker 4 (21:33):
He was I would probably say maybe five four and
I would probably say about one hundred and fifteen pounds
soaking wet. He was not a very big guy at all.
He was very small, sature.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
Does he talk about meeting Shelley at all with the
family or how does she come up?
Speaker 4 (21:57):
She came up because he had said that he was
making her out because she was afraid of something. She
was afraid of an ex boyfriend or something, and so
he wanted to go out and have fun with her
and make sure she had a nice time and kind
of like show her that there were nice guys out there.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
And so she was at the time he met her.
Was she was scared of one of her ex boyfriends?
Speaker 7 (22:20):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (22:21):
Did she name. Do you recall him?
Speaker 4 (22:24):
No, I wasn't there with that conversation, and he wasn't
one to drop names. He would just say that, you know,
he didn't She was nervous about some guy that she dated.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
For Vincent, his family and minorities in general. Living in
Weatherford at the time, there were other things to fear
in town, seemingly much darker than an angry ex boyfriend.
Speaker 4 (22:54):
The eighties and Weatherford was more like the fifties and
Weatherford or the fifties around the US, it was very
racially divided.
Speaker 7 (23:06):
When I went to school there, it was you were
pretty much ridiculed.
Speaker 4 (23:13):
From being anything other than white. So I would be called,
you know, racial names everyone in the count If you
were not white, you were just every other you know, slur.
Speaker 7 (23:25):
You could be known as.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
I'm sorry that. So so that that went on a
lot there.
Speaker 7 (23:31):
Oh, yes, it's known. It still goes on to day.
Speaker 4 (23:33):
I mean, honestly, if they did not want you in
the city, they would run you out.
Speaker 7 (23:39):
Period.
Speaker 4 (23:40):
We were just grandfathered in because we've been there since
this fifties and sixties, and so everyone that was you
know there from that time period they considered as tolerable,
so you know, we were kind of left alone as
long as you weren't put on the radar.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Was there violence against minorities at the time, My gosh, yes,
and talk to me a little bit about that, what
you've heard, what you've seen.
Speaker 4 (24:07):
Well, as from growing up, we used to always do
like go to the Sunshine like which is you know
now called Cartwright Park and we would go have family
picnics and things like that. But we were always told
never say when it gets dark. As soon as it
even starts to get dark, you leave immediately because that
was known to be where the KKK would come and
(24:28):
you know, do their nightly things or whatever meetings. So
if you were in the wrong place at the wrong time,
then you would.
Speaker 7 (24:34):
Get caught in that.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
And so the KKK was prevalent down there at the time.
Speaker 4 (24:40):
Oh yes, sheriff policies and the Sheriff's department and the
police department.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
This changes things for me and widens the suspect pool significantly.
And so you're saying there were members from law enforcement
in the KKK. Oh yes, Vincent Senior knew before the
(25:14):
clock struck midnight on March twenty sixth, nineteen eighty three,
when his son had not come home or called that
he needed to act. He could not simply sit around
and wait for someone else to do something, so he
took action almost immediately. There was no question about Vincent
(25:35):
Junior's integrity, honesty, and responsibility. If he had not come home,
there was a reason beyond his control.
Speaker 4 (25:45):
And so at ten he started calling people, you know,
all of the family. Hey, you've seen him, you know,
in town and you know we were asleep, so we
hadn't seen anything. But he checked with every single person
because that wasn't like him. He would not just be
you know, not there. He would have stopped somewhere to.
Speaker 7 (26:04):
Call, you know, and let him know, hey, am running
late or something like that. And you know, my uncle
also knew that you.
Speaker 4 (26:10):
Really don't want to be out that late, because only
bad things happened was after dark.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
The Ta Jerinas lived off of Tin Top Road to
the south. To get to Main Street, where Vincent Senior
knew the kids were going that night, you'd drive north
on Tin Top Road and go past Piss Hill. If
Vincent Senior is out specifically looking for his son, and
Vincent and Shelley were parked on piss hill. There could
(26:40):
be no way he'd miss seeing the vehicle as he
drove by that pull off throughout the night.
Speaker 4 (26:48):
So yeah, which I always found was really strange because
coming down that road where they were found, you, that
was the road that you came in and out from there.
Speaker 7 (27:00):
I mean, you couldn't really go any other way.
Speaker 4 (27:03):
So for him to come down that way and then
not see it the first time, Yeah, indicates to me
that the car was not there when he first passed.
And I do remember that there was a huge thunderstorm
that night, because I mean it woke me from a
dead sleep, you know, with all the you know, thunder.
Speaker 7 (27:21):
And humbling that was going on.
Speaker 4 (27:22):
Sure, and at that point, a lot of my uncles
and you know, the ones that actually could drive, were
out looking for him. My dad went to go look
for him because they were like, He's like, I'm worried,
I'm of something wrong.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Long past midnight, there was still no word and no
sign of Vincent or Shelley. If you recall Shelley's parents,
her mother Janetta and stepfather Ronnie, were away for the weekend. Neighbor,
family friend and babysitter, Debbie Billingsley had taken Shelley and
her sister Christie for those nights. So Janetta and Ronnie
(28:00):
are celebrating their anniversary and have no idea what is
going on back in town that Vincent Sor and his
family are in a panic driving around looking for the kids,
nor that Debbie, expecting Shelley to be back by eleven PM,
is beyond concerned herself.
Speaker 5 (28:24):
The next morning, at six o'clock, I think it was,
I got a call from Debbie and she said, Johnny,
the kids didn't come home last night. They were going
to get to go get something. She let them go
get something, you know, to drink, and she said, the
kids didn't come home last night. And I said, what
(28:45):
do you mean. She said, they didn't come home last night.
I said, okay, I'm on my way. So we leave
and I get home and we go to you know,
the gates, and there were cars everywhere.
Speaker 7 (29:11):
And so.
Speaker 5 (29:14):
Right, and I looked at Ronnie and he knew it
was something wasn't right, and he said, just sit here
a minute. And so his mother. At the time Ronnie
got out of the car, his mother's coming out of
the house and she's just booing and shaking her arms
(29:35):
and I knew it didn't Something.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
Was wrong when Vincent Senior drove past Piss Hill. Of course,
knowing how kids are, he searched that area to see
if they had parked and perhaps lost track of time.
It was a stormy night, so maybe their car broke
down or they got a flat. There were so many
(29:57):
scenarios that could have happened to make them late. But
Vincent Senior, looking carefully for his son and that Monte
Carlo he had let the boy borrow, drove by Piss Hill.
No one really knows what time this was, and he
did not see the vehicle anywhere. This will become an
(30:21):
important fact in my investigation later on, because it's clear
from those I spoke to that Vincent Senior was up
there searching again after midnight and he never saw the vehicle.
Just as the sun begins to pop over the horizon.
After driving around all night long and not finding the kids,
(30:43):
Vincent Senior takes another drive along Tin Top Road, once
again passing Piss Hill as he is heading home, somewhere
around five point thirty to six am, and this time
he sees the Monte Carlo sitting there by that telephone
pole just off Cleeburn Avenue, almost in the middle of
(31:06):
the pull off here is that unnamed tea Jerina family member.
Speaker 3 (31:12):
Once again, we.
Speaker 7 (31:14):
Received the call.
Speaker 4 (31:15):
I don't know when we received the call, but I
knew as soon as the phone rang that it wasn't good.
Speaker 7 (31:20):
And then I just hear my mom scream and she
falls to the ground.
Speaker 4 (31:24):
And then that's when we jump up and ask what
happened and she said that then so it.
Speaker 7 (31:30):
Was gone, and I was devastated.
Speaker 4 (31:36):
I mean, even that, for the years have passed, still haunting,
because there's no reason why a child should have been killed,
no reason in the world except through the eight that's
the only thing that would kill a child.
Speaker 7 (31:53):
There were babies.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
We know for certain.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
It was near six am then, since pulls up Cleeburn, Parks,
gets out of his vehicle and approaches the Monte Carlo.
There doesn't seem to be anyone around. The entire area
is muddy and wet from the overnight thunderstorms. As he
(32:20):
walks up to the driver's side door, he can see
his son slumped back against the seat, blood everywhere, one
of Vincent Junior's eyes actually hanging out of its socket.
Shelley is sitting in the passenger seat. There's some disagreement
(32:41):
over how Shelley's body was found, which we will unpack
later on. One version is that Shelley's head is leaning
against the closed window, blood dripping down the door. But
that is not how Vincent sor says he found them.
It's a fact both of these kids' bodies had been
(33:05):
staged and both were shot at point blank range. After
staying at the crime scene for several minutes, Vincent Senior
head straight to the closest house, uses their phone, gets
hold of police, then calls home and explains what he found.
(33:27):
How is you know the family? What is the family
doing at this time early morning?
Speaker 3 (33:32):
There?
Speaker 4 (33:33):
He told us where he was, where he was found,
and so we all drove up to the location where
the car was found, and we were all allowed to
walk around and just roam and just do all kinds
of stuff with the policeman sitting there, you know, allowing
us to taint everything that's around us.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
So you all are walking around the crime scene basically, yes,
do you see anything while you're up there?
Speaker 4 (33:56):
Yeah, we see the huge puddle of blood that's.
Speaker 7 (33:59):
You know, not inside of the car. I was the
one that found that.
Speaker 4 (34:05):
There was a light pole there and there was blood
on the lighthole, which I pointed out to my mom
and pulled it out to the police.
Speaker 7 (34:13):
It was just I couldn't believe.
Speaker 4 (34:16):
One even as a child, that we're allowed to be
walking around, you know, tainting evidence, you know, just like
a crime just happened here and we're allowed to walk
around and people were taking pictures, and it was just unbelievable.
And that's when I knew something was really wrong, because
why else would they want you to mess up the
(34:36):
crime scene, if only to cover themselves.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
And there was only one cop on the scene.
Speaker 4 (34:43):
The only one that I remember, so I mean I
I was devastated. There was too much going on.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
Sure, sure understandable. So you have two teenagers found brutally murdered,
shot in the head, and by six thirty am, only
one cop has responded to the scene, a man you'll
hear from soon. Obviously, nothing could prepare the families for
the news they received that morning. When Janetta and Ronnie
(35:15):
Calliflower returned home, Janetta locked herself inside the car. She
reckoned that if she didn't get out of the vehicle,
she couldn't hear the news that it wasn't real.
Speaker 5 (35:29):
So I just got down in the car, locked the
doors and I didn't want to get out because I
didn't want to hear you know, I don't you know, no, no, no,
everything's fine. So finally I do get out, and you know,
here's these people in my house and the detectives and.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
What Janetta and Ronnie were told about the murders only
led them to ask more questions, the most pressing being
who would want to kill two innocent children in such
a violent execution style manner? What could possibly be the motive?
(36:12):
Two police officers showed up at Janetta and Ronnie's house
at some point early that morning. Both officers explained to
the Collie Flowers what had happened, without going into great detail.
Speaker 5 (36:26):
Johnny, she was shot. Her and Vincent were both shot,
and of course I just lost it. And the other
sad part is Vincent's dad is the one that found them.
Speaker 3 (36:42):
Right.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
What did you feel like when you heard they were shot?
Speaker 3 (36:46):
What thoughts went through you?
Speaker 5 (36:48):
And it's not real? This is not real. This is
you know, and not my Shelley, No, you know, and
it's just like a oh, I cannot even tell you
what it feels like and it's like something has just
gotten hooked to your heart and just ripped it apart,
crushed it. I can't even tell you know, it's just
(37:10):
your being is just like gone that it's still that,
you know. Then you're in the shock.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
The investigation. Did you act? Did you talk about the
investigation at all?
Speaker 3 (37:21):
Or what's going on?
Speaker 2 (37:22):
Who did this?
Speaker 5 (37:25):
I asked you, and I said, okay, I want to
know how, And he said God, he said, they both
were shot and they have temple.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
I hate to say that this is just the first
of many lies that the family was told, because lie
is such a strong word, but both families, along with
law enforcement and others associated with the case, echoed this
same set intimate to me. The kids were not shot
(38:04):
in the temple, a fact that would take forty two
years to be unearthed publicly after report is dropped off
literally on the doorstep of a family member in late
twenty twenty four, by an anonymous person. On February fourteenth,
(38:33):
nineteen eighty three, just six weeks before the kids are murdered,
another couple, Lewis and Immajen Crips, were found murdered inside
their truck, which was submerged in Lake Weatherford, fifteen miles
east of Tintop Road. Both had been shot to death.
(38:55):
So now there are four murders, two couples within a
month and a half in this rather secluded small Texas town.
Speaker 3 (39:04):
Robert, How you doing? How you doing? I'm Matthew Robert Morton.
Nice to meet you. Man.
Speaker 2 (39:16):
Getting law enforcement to go on record and talk about
Shelley and Vincent's case has been a challenge. Just accessing documents,
most of which should be public, has become impossible. Over
the past year. I took my denied freedom of information
request all the way up the chain to the Attorney
(39:39):
General's office and was for a third time denied even
the most basic paperwork associated with Vincent and Shelley's murders,
which says something to me. So that has forced me
to gather the information about the early investigation myself. On
(40:01):
a cold, wet, extremely windy morning in February twenty twenty five,
I met the first officer on the scene that morning
in nineteen eighty three, along with a few other people
instrumental in my investigation, in who you'll meet later in
the podcast. We parked on Piss Hill in the exact
(40:26):
spot where the officer came upon what was the most
gruesome murder scene he had ever encountered. Robert Hardin is
eighty seven years old. Today. He walks with a cane.
His face has the lines of a man who has
lived a long life and spent a considerable amount of time.
Speaker 3 (40:48):
In the sun.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
He sports a grey got He still smokes cigarettes. But
I'll say this, the guy is as sharp as a
thirty year old. As that wind whipped in a slight
drizzle began conditions eerily similar to that morning Robert Hardin
was up here so long ago. We talked about what
(41:13):
he found and how the call came in.
Speaker 3 (41:20):
Are you working the overnight shift or why?
Speaker 4 (41:24):
So?
Speaker 3 (41:24):
What happens a call? Who called? Do you do you
remember who called in?
Speaker 8 (41:27):
Yeah? Venture the boy.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
Daddy after he found the car, and so he calls in.
He finds the car. When you get here, what do
you see?
Speaker 8 (41:41):
Well, the car was silk here something new day, probably
in front of Jack Ball, and he was here. He
placeballformation me up here a little bit four six. I
don't know exactly what time now, but I got I
(42:04):
was supposed to get off for six. I got a
call to come up here just a few minutes from
four to six in the car report.
Speaker 3 (42:15):
And how was Vincent when you got here? What was
he doing?
Speaker 2 (42:18):
He was standing by the car when I got here,
Robert says, it was just before six am, so that
timeline seems to add up to what I have. When
he arrives, he sees Vincent Senior on the scene standing
by the vehicle.
Speaker 8 (42:38):
I got here first, I got there. It was walk
around the car, and like I said, the kid would
both laying in. See the girl land on the drivers
passing your side, and she was laying back against see
she was dressed. He was on the driver's side. She
(42:59):
was landing more to the door and the window on
the pastor's side, and he was on the buying steering wheel,
and he was leaning back against his seat. And when
I walked around the car long about here or.
Speaker 2 (43:13):
Somewhere, we made our way over to an area of
the lot that would have easily been seen by anyone
passing by on tin Top or Clee Burn. Robert Hardin
searched the ground with his eyes and then pointed to
a particular spot.
Speaker 3 (43:31):
A little put blood right on the ground. You on
the grounds were leaked out of the car.
Speaker 8 (43:37):
Were leaked out of the car and open the door
off ship. You know, I'm not sure they were. And
his hay was drastic scept his belt was undone, his
zipper on his fly.
Speaker 4 (43:58):
And.
Speaker 8 (44:00):
Of course I understand that that's all been changed. Vincent
redressful after he got here, so I don't have any
animals like before. But I pulled the car up in
here got up, and of course, Senor I got here
and walked around the car. I called for the corner
(44:21):
and the detectives to come out here and look at you.
I called a corner. It was Glenn Densmore and as
soon as he got here, Vincent Sr.
Speaker 3 (44:36):
I wanted to go.
Speaker 8 (44:37):
Tell his wife, you know what he'd found here.
Speaker 2 (44:41):
He didn't.
Speaker 8 (44:41):
He didn't want to go tell her, so he asked
me if I could go with him to his house,
and uh, after the corner and everybody got here, he
and I left.
Speaker 2 (44:53):
Glenn Dinsmore was the coroner. What will become important later
is that Robert claims vince Vin's pants were down and
that Shelley's head was leaning against the passenger side door window.
He then followed Vincent Senior home so he could help
explain to missus t Jerina what happened. The impression I
(45:16):
got from Robert was that Vincent Senior didn't want to
face his wife alone and explain to her that her
son had been murdered.
Speaker 8 (45:26):
Okay, and then I took him home and went in
and talked to his laugh and I came back. It
was right back to the play shade. I didn't come
back by here. I went to the PlayStation, checked out
and was about the last last I had anything to
(45:46):
do with it.
Speaker 3 (45:47):
Did they did they kind of push you all out
of it? I mean?
Speaker 4 (45:51):
Or well?
Speaker 7 (45:52):
Cool?
Speaker 8 (45:52):
I was just control when I wasn't an investigator and
sure everything like that. I was just controlling. You're telling
them one? Did I saw here? When I want to?
Speaker 1 (46:00):
After?
Speaker 8 (46:00):
Before I left, Grahamond Richard and Glendel.
Speaker 3 (46:07):
Let me ask you about the car now?
Speaker 2 (46:09):
Did it look like it was staged or or did.
Speaker 3 (46:13):
It look natural?
Speaker 1 (46:15):
Looked natural?
Speaker 3 (46:17):
And what was the weather like? It was raining, not
real hard, but it was raining.
Speaker 8 (46:24):
Graham?
Speaker 4 (46:24):
Was we you know.
Speaker 3 (46:30):
You know what?
Speaker 8 (46:30):
I I don't know when I got here. I've heard
several of the stories with the car parked over there
behind the building on that side, and there was a
deputy share before I got here, really yeah, before I got.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
Here really so deputies they would be Parker County from
the Sheriff's apartment.
Speaker 3 (46:51):
So just to be clear, I mean you worked for
Weatherford PDS. So okay, so the Sheriff's.
Speaker 2 (46:56):
Apartment you were, you were told what was here before
for you?
Speaker 3 (47:03):
Ah? Interesting, for I know.
Speaker 8 (47:08):
There was no call ever made to like how go
to call on j would be somebody saw witness for
sold two sharestaps you said.
Speaker 3 (47:20):
Up here wow? Wow.
Speaker 2 (47:24):
And so what Robert Hardin confirms is something I have
heard from numerous sources that even before the Weatherford Police
Department went out to the scene, and remember Vincent Senior
found the kids and called the Weatherford Police Department, Parker
County Sheriff's Department deputies had already been unseen but had
(47:48):
left before Robert arrived. But there is no record of
anyone calling it into the Sheriff's department. So how would
they even know the murders took place? I asked Robert
what his immediate thoughts were when he had a moment
(48:09):
to think about the crime scene and what might have happened.
Speaker 8 (48:13):
Well, at the time I thought that it was a
drug deal going bad.
Speaker 3 (48:18):
Jim, what made you think that, Well, the.
Speaker 8 (48:21):
Car that they were driving was we had a drug dealer.
That car looked like and I thought, you know, my
first thought was whenever, whenever Rogers got up here and
got thinking about it, you know that got that car.
Somebody saw that car and stopped like a drug dealer.
(48:41):
And it was like, you mean the kid. I don't
think the kids were involved anyway in anyway, you know,
in the car they were driving looked like this drug
dealer's car.
Speaker 2 (48:54):
That initial news of what Vincent Senior saw when he
approached the vehicle would soon change in a huge way.
Even Vincent's account would be called into question when new
facts later emerged. What Robert Harden witnessed when he first
arrived was not the original crime scene. I am very
(49:18):
confident of that the kids' bodies had clearly been moved.
But things become even murkier after I spoke to someone
who ran into Shelley and Vincent that night up on
Piss Hill and even spoke to them. What he has
(49:38):
to say is well, rather remarkable, throwing things and yet
another new direction.
Speaker 9 (49:48):
I'd had your beers and I need to feel real bad.
So we went up on the hill and I've seen
Vincent there in his car and I said, I will
you do a man, and he goes, oh, I'm just
out on a date, you know. And I was like, hey,
hell you young ladies.
Speaker 8 (50:05):
I don't meet you. Uh and then.
Speaker 9 (50:10):
All interested, probably watching words. And then next thing I know,
I see a super car pulled up and I'm walking
over to my car when the Trooper cars pulled up.
They pulled up behind Venfit and not theying you know,
you got them big jar head looking white boy in
(50:30):
the big change cowboy hat and all that. Now I'll say,
I'll look at dinner go from a distance, and I
was like, I had drunk and I didn't want to
come to him, so we shout out of it, like
about out of hell. And then uh, I guess I've
got I didn't see him go through town or nothing.
Speaker 2 (50:53):
Was it a Sheriff's department or was it Weatherford PD?
Speaker 8 (50:56):
Or it was chance to stay truthful.
Speaker 2 (51:10):
Check out my weekly podcast Crossing the Line with m
William Phelps, where I delve into a new missing person
and cold case murder each week. Wherever you get your
favorite shows coming up in the next episode of Paper goops,
there's no way.
Speaker 4 (51:29):
There's no way you're going to stop me from ever
finding out who murdered my child.
Speaker 5 (51:33):
I don't care.
Speaker 7 (51:33):
I will do into the diamond breath I have.
Speaker 1 (51:36):
That's scary stuff.
Speaker 10 (51:37):
It wouldn't be fair to say that we didn't have.
I mean, we obviously had a crime scene that was
worked out there on that, but with the amount of
time that elapsed, you almost experienced a similar thing there, right,
because the crime scene wasn't handled in nineteen eighty three
the way the quished is handled the day.
Speaker 5 (51:53):
Until one day are coming and I say, Okay, what's
going on, Johnny. I've been told we can't question that
it's the mayor. Something to do with the mayor.
Speaker 2 (52:14):
Paper Ghost Season five is written and executive produced by
me and William Phelps. Script consulting by iHeartMedia Executive producer
Catherine Law, Production by TOC Boom Productions, Audio mastering and
mixing by Brandon Dickert. The series theme number four four
(52:35):
to two is written and performed by Thomas Phelps and
Tom Mooney.
Then you would go up to the hill, you know,
and the nickname of it was piss.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Hill, and everybody knew it.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Yeah, everybody knew it. Yes, Yeah, everybody that was on
the main drag cruising around. Yes, they would know where
that's at.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
In every murder case, we get the media's version of events,
the story law enforcement pushes out, and the narrative underneath
it all those involved actually lived. And how old are you?
Speaker 3 (00:36):
When were you born?
Speaker 1 (00:37):
I was born in nineteen sixty five, so am I'm
almost sixty. I'll be sixty next month.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
And you grew up in Weatherford for.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
The most part, Yeah, I grew up in Louisiana. My
dad was in the military, so I grew up in
partially in Louisiana. I got relatives there and then Texas. Yeah,
for basically Weatherford. Yeah, for most of my time. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
I'm calling this source Teddy. He doesn't want me to
use his real name. Offering anonymity to those living in
fear for decades allows them to speak freely. Teddy lived
in Weatherford in March nineteen eighty three. He was in
town on the night Shelley Colliflower and Vincent Tejerina. We're
(01:24):
out on their first card day in Vincent's father's nineteen
seventy nine Monte Carlo, and I understand there was an
area where quote unquote you would cruise.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
So you know this is like in the like from
the seventies from I was, you know, I cruised the
main drag from like seventy nine to around eighty two
ish eighty three ish, that's my high school years. And
it was in South Maine, Texas, which we have. You know,
most Texas towns have these courthouses, and it's usually the
(02:04):
downtown square area. But for us, where the cruise was
was South Maine, and it would go We have EYE
twenty that's out there. It's I twenty between the courthouse.
If you look at a map of weather for Texas,
so anywhere between the courthouse and South Main Street all
the way to I twenty and then that area there
(02:27):
would be the cruise.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Driving off the I twenty exit ramp, you'd head straight
toward downtown Weatherford, where at the end of that main
drag an elaborate courthouse building greet you welcomingly. We know
the kids were last seen along that strip near nine
pm to ten pm, somewhere in that neighborhood witnesses reported
(02:53):
seeing them at the Sonic and a few other local
hotspots for kids in town along North and South Main Street.
They seemed happy in a good mood out by themselves
for the first time.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
But on the end of the cruise were the specific
cruise there was a place they call Piss Hill, and
that's where kids It was kind of a it's still
there today. It's a like an electrical power plant type
thing with a fence going around it, and then on
the other side is kind of an open dirt field.
It's setting on the top of kind of a hill,
(03:38):
and that's where you would go to go hang out,
you know, while your cruise of the main drag, and
then you get kind of bored with that, and then
you go up on this hill. Guys would take a
leak or whatever, have a few drinks or whatever.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Hence the now iconic name of the place Piss Hill, and.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Then you go back to the main drag and cruise
the main drag because kids would go up there and
hang out. It's kind of a secluded place on top
of the hill.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Did you hang around Shelley and Vince in that kind of.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Crowd, I didn't know them until after, you know, I
think it was like only three to four days after
their murder is whenever I became familiar with them. However,
the night of I was cruising with a friend of
mine and we were in her car, and she happened
(04:32):
to have a black Monte Carlo.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Remember Vincent borrowed his father's green Monte Carlo. We know
for a fact that he picked Shelley up at Debbie
Billingsley's house at six thirty pm and they left around
six forty five pm. Two sources I spoke to say
they saw them on the strip at nine thirty pm.
(04:58):
One source claims they were up at piss Hill parked
near nine pm.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
And so I'm cruising the main drag around let's say,
do to do about seven point thirty to around midnightish,
Me and her kind of cruising the main drag, and
so the cars that she was in a I said,
an eighty something model Monte Carlo, seventy nine eighty eighty
two Monte Carlo. And we happened to notice other people
(05:28):
driving the similar Monte Carlo, and Vincent and Shelley they
happened to have a Monte Carlo. I thought the car
was black, but I've been told it was a different color.
But it was a dark color, so at night with
the street lights, it looked like it made the car
look like it was black. So to me, I've always
(05:48):
thought it was a black Monte Carlo, exactly the kind
of car we were driving around in. But there were
three Monte Carlos that looked identical, the one we were driving,
the one Shelley and Vincent were driving, and then there
was another one. I'm not sure who was driving that one.
So we did see. I did see Shelley and Vincent,
(06:09):
not knowing their names at the time. I did see
their car a couple of times because everybody made that
same loop going down the main drag. We make everybody
make that same cruise drag going up and down and
stuff like that, and every now and we pull into
parking lots and talk to friends and then go back
on the main drag and drive up and down the street.
(06:29):
And I've seen their car probably about time frame, if
you will, maybe from off and on, maybe seven thirty
to maybe nine thirty something like that, maybe ten thirty,
I'm not sure, that's kind of a timeframe. When I
did see them driving the main drag, if you will,
the cruise, the south main cruise.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
So and while you were up there, what time was it.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Well, we went to Piss Hill a couple of times.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
This comment is important. We are talking forty two years ago,
and Piss Hill was one of those places off the
main drag you'd circle back to at intervals throughout a
night of cruising. So the witness is coming forward to
explain that they saw the kids up there, could have
(07:24):
seen them at different times, and in a case like this,
a timeline becomes essential, which is why I wanted to
build it out right away.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Yeah, I can't say for sure, but we're there from
off and on. We may have gotten something to eat.
We cruised around, I know at one time around I
don't know. The times are this kind of so long ago,
probably about seven thirty, eight thirty, nine thirty we made
a stop there. So one time we stopped and then
(07:59):
we left, and then we went back up there again,
maybe one or two other times, so the timeframe would
be from seven thirty to midnight something to twelve thirty.
Maybe we were Okay, So there's an electrical power plant
up there, and it's fenced in it's still there today.
It was starting to rain, the storms were coming in,
(08:22):
and the clouds were coming in. The storms are coming in,
and me and lady friend I was with at the time,
we pulled in facing the west, which we're on top
of this hill, and we're watching the storms kind of
come into the you know, where we were at, and
(08:43):
I noticed some lightning strikes, I noticed some rain, and
we didn't go too far off because because of the mud,
you know, we didn't want to get into an area
that was muddy. And actually that little the road there
where whatever that road's called, I can't remember offhand. On
the opposite side is where I've seen some trucks four
wheel draw truck type trucks driving around over there, and
(09:04):
there would be cars coming in and out. It's real
dark up there at night, and you can't see. All
you can do is kind of see headlights, and the
only thing I could make out was like the trucks
in and out.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
That storm, the heavy rains and thunder, it's all going
to play an important role in re examining this case
and within what Teddy tells me. So let's go back
to that night. Teddy and his girlfriend are sitting in
that vehicle talking watching the storms roll in something of
(09:44):
a statewide pastime in the flatlands of Texas. They are
just across the street from a small parking area up
at Piss Hill where you could pull off for a
quick stop, which is actually on Cleeburn Avenue. The back
of the vehicle, Teddy is sitting in faces that pull
off the front of the vehicle, looking out into the horizon.
(10:07):
This pull off is a section of dirt and gravel
about half the size of a football field, maybe fifty
square yards long, half that wide. There's a telephone pole
to the back of the lot. Fields of foliage surrounding
three sides with a slight decline heading down toward Tin
(10:28):
Top Road, and what is a power plant across the
street where Teddy and his girl are sitting.
Speaker 4 (10:37):
We are.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
Up on the hill facing west and we're over there
by the electrical power plant side, which was kind of
had some gravel on the behind me. I was looking
through the rear view mirrors. I knew there were vehicles
coming in and out on the other side. And that
area over there is kind of a i'd say like
an open parking lot, an old abandoned school or some
(11:03):
kind of abandoned property. I'm not really sure what was
back there.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Across Cleeburne Avenue from the pis Hill pull off was
an old school. It's nothing but rubble now, but in
nineteen eighty three it was still a standing structure. Some
I have spoken to have speculated that Vincent and Shelley
could have actually parked over there first, behind the building,
(11:32):
because why park with your girl right there out in
the open if you had plans on getting frisky, which
we have to consider could have been part of their plan.
As Teddy and his girl are sitting watching the thunderstorm,
he hears.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Something and me and her are talking, and I hear
the rain coming in the lightning strikes and stuff like that.
So I start listening to the thunder. For whatever reason,
(12:12):
it's got kind of quiet, and all of a sudden,
the thunder started. Thunderstrikes were happening, and then the rain
would stop, then start raining stop, And then I was
listening to the thunder, and this is what caught my attention.
I'm sitting here listening to the thunder, and then I
hear I hear the what a what? The sound of
a thunder sounds like rumbling through the sky, and during
(12:38):
the same time as a thunderstrike. It seemed like I
was hearing gunshots like I would hear like i'd hear
the thunder, and then I'd hear like a gunshot, But
the gunshot was coming We're facing west, it was coming
across the street from it sounded like it was coming
behind where I was at, face on the east side,
(12:59):
or where I was at. And then I heard maybe.
So the first time, I'm sitting there going well, that
thunder sounds odd, that sounds weird, and so I'm kind
of crouching down in the seat. The lady was with
girl at the time. I guess I didn't want to
startle she didn't notice it, and I think I may
have said something, hey, did you hear that? And she
(13:22):
didn't notice it, So I said, well, I don't want
to spook her. So she was sitting pretty low in
the seat already, and so I started kind of easing
down into the seat and I was really listening, and
then I heard it again. I heard like a thunder noise.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
In Texas, you grow up around firearms. You learn to
distinguish between the sound of a rifle and a pistol.
You know the sound of rolling thunder across the plains,
and it sure doesn't sound like a gunshot. That noise
was so distinctly different than the thunder that Teddy instinctively
(14:02):
crouched down in his seat, thinking somebody was firing a
weapon in their direction. He was certain of it.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
And then I heard what sounded like a gunshot, and
then I think I may have heard it maybe one
or two more times, and then that was it. Previously
on paper.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
Ghosts, this is not real.
Speaker 5 (14:34):
This is not real. You know, they're not my Kelly, no,
you know, and it's just like a oh, I cannot
even tell you what it feels.
Speaker 6 (14:44):
Shelling was fourteen, I mean in Vincent was sixteen, and
these were kids, and we're just trying to get answers
to the family and they've been denied any answers from whether
for a few days.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
He stayed there for a while.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
One o'clock rolls, around two o'clock. He goes out again,
looking again, and the next time we started with in
the funeral.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
My name is Emi William Phelps.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
I'm an investigative journalist and the New York Times bestselling
author of dozens of true crime books. This is season
five of Paper Ghosts. The Texas Team murders. Drive along
(15:47):
South Main Street, hang a right onto Bethel Road, and
you come to Tintop on your left. As you drive
up ten Top, you pass a field as the road
begins a brie incline. Maybe a quarter mile from there.
On the right is that massive power grid plan the
(16:08):
area where my source Teddy was parked with his girl
and heard what he believed to be three gunshots. It
looks like anywhere in the US dollarge dealership. It occurred
to me as I drove up tent Top, maybe more
as a father than some dude investigating a cold case,
(16:30):
that Vincent's dad, Vince Senior, must have gone through hell
during the early morning hours of March twenty sixth, nineteen
eighty three, as he set out looking for the kids
after they failed to show up at Debbie Billingsley's house
the previous night. Vincent Senior had to know in his
(16:53):
gut something was wrong, and that hell Vincent Senior went
through as he drove all over town looking for them,
would only get worse as the sun rose that early
morning and there was still no word from the kids,
And so you you spent a lot of time at
the Tejerina house, Am I right?
Speaker 7 (17:16):
We spent a lot of time with all family.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Yes, And so talk to me about that family dynamic,
the atmosphere, what you would do. Tell me a story
or two of how you would show love to each other.
Speaker 7 (17:29):
Well, we were obviously really close.
Speaker 4 (17:31):
We spent almost every single weekend together with not just
one family, but like four or five families together. We
would go to the lake, we would go over to Vincent's.
You know, he had a ranch. Well I considered it
a ranch because it was just you know, a whole
bunch of acreage and they had, you know, their blommables.
Speaker 7 (17:48):
That little Vincent was crazy for the Efatha.
Speaker 4 (17:53):
They had moved into a small little trailer until they
you know, he made enough money to build their house. So,
you know, he had his own construction or I think
it was a painting company.
Speaker 7 (18:07):
So he did a.
Speaker 4 (18:08):
Lot of work, you know for businesses in Weatherford and
they built their house. So when they built their house,
I used to go and spend more time with Lily
because she was my age and Vincent was I think
three years older than I was.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
I spoke to one of Vincent Tejerina's family members, who
doesn't want me using her name for fear of being
harassed or worse. She grew up with Vincent. Was there
on the day he left with Shelley on their first
card date, and will never forget the overwhelming panic that
(18:48):
ensued when word began to spread that the kids had
not come home. I asked her what kind of kid
Vincent was.
Speaker 4 (19:01):
He was very, very caring, very sweet. He was very protective,
you know, of his family. He honestly, he was an
enigma because he was a perfect ideal kid.
Speaker 7 (19:13):
You know. He helped his dad with the business.
Speaker 4 (19:15):
He was straighting student, he was in the martial arts,
He raised those cattle. He you know, helped raise his sisters.
It was there wasn't anything that he wouldn't do. He
was just very smart and sweet person.
Speaker 7 (19:29):
I was helping people.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Vincent Junior had the admiration of his peers, respected his
parents and elders, and had this unassailable love for his
baby's sister.
Speaker 4 (19:44):
Instance, he actually built this, you know house. My cousin
was like, oh, he does a house for me. Let
you know, she'd come over and see it. And so
I went over to see it, and she wasn't lying.
He was almost literally a small version of a house.
I had electric, it had blooming, but it was her
clubhouse that he made for her for her birthday.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Yeah. I was told that he loved her so much
that he took her everywhere he went.
Speaker 4 (20:08):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah he did because that.
Speaker 7 (20:11):
Was his little sister.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
He was protecting her always, and he just loved hanging out.
Speaker 7 (20:15):
He was just he has such a big heart, you know.
Speaker 4 (20:18):
And so if she went, then I would go, you know,
because I was, you know, with her as well, and
he was.
Speaker 7 (20:28):
You know, really caring. He would do anything for her.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
And did he talk about having any problems with anybody
in town, in school, et cetera.
Speaker 7 (20:37):
No, he never did, because nobody ever had a problem
with him.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
What about school? How how did that go for him?
Did he like it? Did he What did he want
to do when he grew up?
Speaker 7 (20:47):
Well, he had he had a lot of big dreams.
Speaker 4 (20:49):
He was going to help his father with his business,
so he could you know, expand and be a larger
business and help his father run that. That was his
dream to make sure that, you know, his family was
always taking care of So when Vincent was working, he
was working alongside him to build that dream. That's why
he started showing the Brahma bulls because he wanted to
(21:10):
make that extra money to put back into the family business.
He loved martial arts.
Speaker 7 (21:15):
I do remember that, and I started taking martial arts
just because he did, you know.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
And was he good at it?
Speaker 7 (21:22):
He was really good at it. Yes.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
And he could protect himself.
Speaker 7 (21:27):
Yes, or against one person.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Yes, big kid. Was he a big kid?
Speaker 7 (21:31):
No, he was not a big kid at all.
Speaker 4 (21:33):
He was I would probably say maybe five four and
I would probably say about one hundred and fifteen pounds
soaking wet. He was not a very big guy at all.
He was very small, sature.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
Does he talk about meeting Shelley at all with the
family or how does she come up?
Speaker 4 (21:57):
She came up because he had said that he was
making her out because she was afraid of something. She
was afraid of an ex boyfriend or something, and so
he wanted to go out and have fun with her
and make sure she had a nice time and kind
of like show her that there were nice guys out there.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
And so she was at the time he met her.
Was she was scared of one of her ex boyfriends?
Speaker 7 (22:20):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (22:21):
Did she name. Do you recall him?
Speaker 4 (22:24):
No, I wasn't there with that conversation, and he wasn't
one to drop names. He would just say that, you know,
he didn't She was nervous about some guy that she dated.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
For Vincent, his family and minorities in general. Living in
Weatherford at the time, there were other things to fear
in town, seemingly much darker than an angry ex boyfriend.
Speaker 4 (22:54):
The eighties and Weatherford was more like the fifties and
Weatherford or the fifties around the US, it was very
racially divided.
Speaker 7 (23:06):
When I went to school there, it was you were
pretty much ridiculed.
Speaker 4 (23:13):
From being anything other than white. So I would be called,
you know, racial names everyone in the count If you
were not white, you were just every other you know, slur.
Speaker 7 (23:25):
You could be known as.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
I'm sorry that. So so that that went on a
lot there.
Speaker 7 (23:31):
Oh, yes, it's known. It still goes on to day.
Speaker 4 (23:33):
I mean, honestly, if they did not want you in
the city, they would run you out.
Speaker 7 (23:39):
Period.
Speaker 4 (23:40):
We were just grandfathered in because we've been there since
this fifties and sixties, and so everyone that was you
know there from that time period they considered as tolerable,
so you know, we were kind of left alone as
long as you weren't put on the radar.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Was there violence against minorities at the time, My gosh, yes,
and talk to me a little bit about that, what
you've heard, what you've seen.
Speaker 4 (24:07):
Well, as from growing up, we used to always do
like go to the Sunshine like which is you know
now called Cartwright Park and we would go have family
picnics and things like that. But we were always told
never say when it gets dark. As soon as it
even starts to get dark, you leave immediately because that
was known to be where the KKK would come and
(24:28):
you know, do their nightly things or whatever meetings. So
if you were in the wrong place at the wrong time,
then you would.
Speaker 7 (24:34):
Get caught in that.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
And so the KKK was prevalent down there at the time.
Speaker 4 (24:40):
Oh yes, sheriff policies and the Sheriff's department and the
police department.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
This changes things for me and widens the suspect pool significantly.
And so you're saying there were members from law enforcement
in the KKK. Oh yes, Vincent Senior knew before the
(25:14):
clock struck midnight on March twenty sixth, nineteen eighty three,
when his son had not come home or called that
he needed to act. He could not simply sit around
and wait for someone else to do something, so he
took action almost immediately. There was no question about Vincent
(25:35):
Junior's integrity, honesty, and responsibility. If he had not come home,
there was a reason beyond his control.
Speaker 4 (25:45):
And so at ten he started calling people, you know,
all of the family. Hey, you've seen him, you know,
in town and you know we were asleep, so we
hadn't seen anything. But he checked with every single person
because that wasn't like him. He would not just be
you know, not there. He would have stopped somewhere to.
Speaker 7 (26:04):
Call, you know, and let him know, hey, am running
late or something like that. And you know, my uncle
also knew that you.
Speaker 4 (26:10):
Really don't want to be out that late, because only
bad things happened was after dark.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
The Ta Jerinas lived off of Tin Top Road to
the south. To get to Main Street, where Vincent Senior
knew the kids were going that night, you'd drive north
on Tin Top Road and go past Piss Hill. If
Vincent Senior is out specifically looking for his son, and
Vincent and Shelley were parked on piss hill. There could
(26:40):
be no way he'd miss seeing the vehicle as he
drove by that pull off throughout the night.
Speaker 4 (26:48):
So yeah, which I always found was really strange because
coming down that road where they were found, you, that
was the road that you came in and out from there.
Speaker 7 (27:00):
I mean, you couldn't really go any other way.
Speaker 4 (27:03):
So for him to come down that way and then
not see it the first time, Yeah, indicates to me
that the car was not there when he first passed.
And I do remember that there was a huge thunderstorm
that night, because I mean it woke me from a
dead sleep, you know, with all the you know, thunder.
Speaker 7 (27:21):
And humbling that was going on.
Speaker 4 (27:22):
Sure, and at that point, a lot of my uncles
and you know, the ones that actually could drive, were
out looking for him. My dad went to go look
for him because they were like, He's like, I'm worried,
I'm of something wrong.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Long past midnight, there was still no word and no
sign of Vincent or Shelley. If you recall Shelley's parents,
her mother Janetta and stepfather Ronnie, were away for the weekend. Neighbor,
family friend and babysitter, Debbie Billingsley had taken Shelley and
her sister Christie for those nights. So Janetta and Ronnie
(28:00):
are celebrating their anniversary and have no idea what is
going on back in town that Vincent Sor and his
family are in a panic driving around looking for the kids,
nor that Debbie, expecting Shelley to be back by eleven PM,
is beyond concerned herself.
Speaker 5 (28:24):
The next morning, at six o'clock, I think it was,
I got a call from Debbie and she said, Johnny,
the kids didn't come home last night. They were going
to get to go get something. She let them go
get something, you know, to drink, and she said, the
kids didn't come home last night. And I said, what
(28:45):
do you mean. She said, they didn't come home last night.
I said, okay, I'm on my way. So we leave
and I get home and we go to you know,
the gates, and there were cars everywhere.
Speaker 7 (29:11):
And so.
Speaker 5 (29:14):
Right, and I looked at Ronnie and he knew it
was something wasn't right, and he said, just sit here
a minute. And so his mother. At the time Ronnie
got out of the car, his mother's coming out of
the house and she's just booing and shaking her arms
(29:35):
and I knew it didn't Something.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
Was wrong when Vincent Senior drove past Piss Hill. Of course,
knowing how kids are, he searched that area to see
if they had parked and perhaps lost track of time.
It was a stormy night, so maybe their car broke
down or they got a flat. There were so many
(29:57):
scenarios that could have happened to make them late. But
Vincent Senior, looking carefully for his son and that Monte
Carlo he had let the boy borrow, drove by Piss Hill.
No one really knows what time this was, and he
did not see the vehicle anywhere. This will become an
(30:21):
important fact in my investigation later on, because it's clear
from those I spoke to that Vincent Senior was up
there searching again after midnight and he never saw the vehicle.
Just as the sun begins to pop over the horizon.
After driving around all night long and not finding the kids,
(30:43):
Vincent Senior takes another drive along Tin Top Road, once
again passing Piss Hill as he is heading home, somewhere
around five point thirty to six am, and this time
he sees the Monte Carlo sitting there by that telephone
pole just off Cleeburn Avenue, almost in the middle of
(31:06):
the pull off here is that unnamed tea Jerina family member.
Speaker 3 (31:12):
Once again, we.
Speaker 7 (31:14):
Received the call.
Speaker 4 (31:15):
I don't know when we received the call, but I
knew as soon as the phone rang that it wasn't good.
Speaker 7 (31:20):
And then I just hear my mom scream and she
falls to the ground.
Speaker 4 (31:24):
And then that's when we jump up and ask what
happened and she said that then so it.
Speaker 7 (31:30):
Was gone, and I was devastated.
Speaker 4 (31:36):
I mean, even that, for the years have passed, still haunting,
because there's no reason why a child should have been killed,
no reason in the world except through the eight that's
the only thing that would kill a child.
Speaker 7 (31:53):
There were babies.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
We know for certain.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
It was near six am then, since pulls up Cleeburn, Parks,
gets out of his vehicle and approaches the Monte Carlo.
There doesn't seem to be anyone around. The entire area
is muddy and wet from the overnight thunderstorms. As he
(32:20):
walks up to the driver's side door, he can see
his son slumped back against the seat, blood everywhere, one
of Vincent Junior's eyes actually hanging out of its socket.
Shelley is sitting in the passenger seat. There's some disagreement
(32:41):
over how Shelley's body was found, which we will unpack
later on. One version is that Shelley's head is leaning
against the closed window, blood dripping down the door. But
that is not how Vincent sor says he found them.
It's a fact both of these kids' bodies had been
(33:05):
staged and both were shot at point blank range. After
staying at the crime scene for several minutes, Vincent Senior
head straight to the closest house, uses their phone, gets
hold of police, then calls home and explains what he found.
(33:27):
How is you know the family? What is the family
doing at this time early morning?
Speaker 3 (33:32):
There?
Speaker 4 (33:33):
He told us where he was, where he was found,
and so we all drove up to the location where
the car was found, and we were all allowed to
walk around and just roam and just do all kinds
of stuff with the policeman sitting there, you know, allowing
us to taint everything that's around us.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
So you all are walking around the crime scene basically, yes,
do you see anything while you're up there?
Speaker 4 (33:56):
Yeah, we see the huge puddle of blood that's.
Speaker 7 (33:59):
You know, not inside of the car. I was the
one that found that.
Speaker 4 (34:05):
There was a light pole there and there was blood
on the lighthole, which I pointed out to my mom
and pulled it out to the police.
Speaker 7 (34:13):
It was just I couldn't believe.
Speaker 4 (34:16):
One even as a child, that we're allowed to be
walking around, you know, tainting evidence, you know, just like
a crime just happened here and we're allowed to walk
around and people were taking pictures, and it was just unbelievable.
And that's when I knew something was really wrong, because
why else would they want you to mess up the
(34:36):
crime scene, if only to cover themselves.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
And there was only one cop on the scene.
Speaker 4 (34:43):
The only one that I remember, so I mean I
I was devastated. There was too much going on.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
Sure, sure understandable. So you have two teenagers found brutally murdered,
shot in the head, and by six thirty am, only
one cop has responded to the scene, a man you'll
hear from soon. Obviously, nothing could prepare the families for
the news they received that morning. When Janetta and Ronnie
(35:15):
Calliflower returned home, Janetta locked herself inside the car. She
reckoned that if she didn't get out of the vehicle,
she couldn't hear the news that it wasn't real.
Speaker 5 (35:29):
So I just got down in the car, locked the
doors and I didn't want to get out because I
didn't want to hear you know, I don't you know, no, no, no,
everything's fine. So finally I do get out, and you know,
here's these people in my house and the detectives and.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
What Janetta and Ronnie were told about the murders only
led them to ask more questions, the most pressing being
who would want to kill two innocent children in such
a violent execution style manner? What could possibly be the motive?
(36:12):
Two police officers showed up at Janetta and Ronnie's house
at some point early that morning. Both officers explained to
the Collie Flowers what had happened, without going into great detail.
Speaker 5 (36:26):
Johnny, she was shot. Her and Vincent were both shot,
and of course I just lost it. And the other
sad part is Vincent's dad is the one that found them.
Speaker 3 (36:42):
Right.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
What did you feel like when you heard they were shot?
Speaker 3 (36:46):
What thoughts went through you?
Speaker 5 (36:48):
And it's not real? This is not real. This is
you know, and not my Shelley, No, you know, and
it's just like a oh, I cannot even tell you
what it feels like and it's like something has just
gotten hooked to your heart and just ripped it apart,
crushed it. I can't even tell you know, it's just
(37:10):
your being is just like gone that it's still that,
you know. Then you're in the shock.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
The investigation. Did you act? Did you talk about the
investigation at all?
Speaker 3 (37:21):
Or what's going on?
Speaker 2 (37:22):
Who did this?
Speaker 5 (37:25):
I asked you, and I said, okay, I want to
know how, And he said God, he said, they both
were shot and they have temple.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
I hate to say that this is just the first
of many lies that the family was told, because lie
is such a strong word, but both families, along with
law enforcement and others associated with the case, echoed this
same set intimate to me. The kids were not shot
(38:04):
in the temple, a fact that would take forty two
years to be unearthed publicly after report is dropped off
literally on the doorstep of a family member in late
twenty twenty four, by an anonymous person. On February fourteenth,
(38:33):
nineteen eighty three, just six weeks before the kids are murdered,
another couple, Lewis and Immajen Crips, were found murdered inside
their truck, which was submerged in Lake Weatherford, fifteen miles
east of Tintop Road. Both had been shot to death.
(38:55):
So now there are four murders, two couples within a
month and a half in this rather secluded small Texas town.
Speaker 3 (39:04):
Robert, How you doing? How you doing? I'm Matthew Robert Morton.
Nice to meet you. Man.
Speaker 2 (39:16):
Getting law enforcement to go on record and talk about
Shelley and Vincent's case has been a challenge. Just accessing documents,
most of which should be public, has become impossible. Over
the past year. I took my denied freedom of information
request all the way up the chain to the Attorney
(39:39):
General's office and was for a third time denied even
the most basic paperwork associated with Vincent and Shelley's murders,
which says something to me. So that has forced me
to gather the information about the early investigation myself. On
(40:01):
a cold, wet, extremely windy morning in February twenty twenty five,
I met the first officer on the scene that morning
in nineteen eighty three, along with a few other people
instrumental in my investigation, in who you'll meet later in
the podcast. We parked on Piss Hill in the exact
(40:26):
spot where the officer came upon what was the most
gruesome murder scene he had ever encountered. Robert Hardin is
eighty seven years old. Today. He walks with a cane.
His face has the lines of a man who has
lived a long life and spent a considerable amount of time.
Speaker 3 (40:48):
In the sun.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
He sports a grey got He still smokes cigarettes. But
I'll say this, the guy is as sharp as a
thirty year old. As that wind whipped in a slight
drizzle began conditions eerily similar to that morning Robert Hardin
was up here so long ago. We talked about what
(41:13):
he found and how the call came in.
Speaker 3 (41:20):
Are you working the overnight shift or why?
Speaker 4 (41:24):
So?
Speaker 3 (41:24):
What happens a call? Who called? Do you do you
remember who called in?
Speaker 8 (41:27):
Yeah? Venture the boy.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
Daddy after he found the car, and so he calls in.
He finds the car. When you get here, what do
you see?
Speaker 8 (41:41):
Well, the car was silk here something new day, probably
in front of Jack Ball, and he was here. He
placeballformation me up here a little bit four six. I
don't know exactly what time now, but I got I
(42:04):
was supposed to get off for six. I got a
call to come up here just a few minutes from
four to six in the car report.
Speaker 3 (42:15):
And how was Vincent when you got here? What was
he doing?
Speaker 2 (42:18):
He was standing by the car when I got here,
Robert says, it was just before six am, so that
timeline seems to add up to what I have. When
he arrives, he sees Vincent Senior on the scene standing
by the vehicle.
Speaker 8 (42:38):
I got here first, I got there. It was walk
around the car, and like I said, the kid would
both laying in. See the girl land on the drivers
passing your side, and she was laying back against see
she was dressed. He was on the driver's side. She
(42:59):
was landing more to the door and the window on
the pastor's side, and he was on the buying steering wheel,
and he was leaning back against his seat. And when
I walked around the car long about here or.
Speaker 2 (43:13):
Somewhere, we made our way over to an area of
the lot that would have easily been seen by anyone
passing by on tin Top or Clee Burn. Robert Hardin
searched the ground with his eyes and then pointed to
a particular spot.
Speaker 3 (43:31):
A little put blood right on the ground. You on
the grounds were leaked out of the car.
Speaker 8 (43:37):
Were leaked out of the car and open the door
off ship. You know, I'm not sure they were. And
his hay was drastic scept his belt was undone, his
zipper on his fly.
Speaker 4 (43:58):
And.
Speaker 8 (44:00):
Of course I understand that that's all been changed. Vincent
redressful after he got here, so I don't have any
animals like before. But I pulled the car up in
here got up, and of course, Senor I got here
and walked around the car. I called for the corner
(44:21):
and the detectives to come out here and look at you.
I called a corner. It was Glenn Densmore and as
soon as he got here, Vincent Sr.
Speaker 3 (44:36):
I wanted to go.
Speaker 8 (44:37):
Tell his wife, you know what he'd found here.
Speaker 2 (44:41):
He didn't.
Speaker 8 (44:41):
He didn't want to go tell her, so he asked
me if I could go with him to his house,
and uh, after the corner and everybody got here, he
and I left.
Speaker 2 (44:53):
Glenn Dinsmore was the coroner. What will become important later
is that Robert claims vince Vin's pants were down and
that Shelley's head was leaning against the passenger side door window.
He then followed Vincent Senior home so he could help
explain to missus t Jerina what happened. The impression I
(45:16):
got from Robert was that Vincent Senior didn't want to
face his wife alone and explain to her that her
son had been murdered.
Speaker 8 (45:26):
Okay, and then I took him home and went in
and talked to his laugh and I came back. It
was right back to the play shade. I didn't come
back by here. I went to the PlayStation, checked out
and was about the last last I had anything to
(45:46):
do with it.
Speaker 3 (45:47):
Did they did they kind of push you all out
of it? I mean?
Speaker 4 (45:51):
Or well?
Speaker 7 (45:52):
Cool?
Speaker 8 (45:52):
I was just control when I wasn't an investigator and
sure everything like that. I was just controlling. You're telling
them one? Did I saw here? When I want to?
Speaker 1 (46:00):
After?
Speaker 8 (46:00):
Before I left, Grahamond Richard and Glendel.
Speaker 3 (46:07):
Let me ask you about the car now?
Speaker 2 (46:09):
Did it look like it was staged or or did.
Speaker 3 (46:13):
It look natural?
Speaker 1 (46:15):
Looked natural?
Speaker 3 (46:17):
And what was the weather like? It was raining, not
real hard, but it was raining.
Speaker 8 (46:24):
Graham?
Speaker 4 (46:24):
Was we you know.
Speaker 3 (46:30):
You know what?
Speaker 8 (46:30):
I I don't know when I got here. I've heard
several of the stories with the car parked over there
behind the building on that side, and there was a
deputy share before I got here, really yeah, before I got.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
Here really so deputies they would be Parker County from
the Sheriff's apartment.
Speaker 3 (46:51):
So just to be clear, I mean you worked for
Weatherford PDS. So okay, so the Sheriff's.
Speaker 2 (46:56):
Apartment you were, you were told what was here before
for you?
Speaker 3 (47:03):
Ah? Interesting, for I know.
Speaker 8 (47:08):
There was no call ever made to like how go
to call on j would be somebody saw witness for
sold two sharestaps you said.
Speaker 3 (47:20):
Up here wow? Wow.
Speaker 2 (47:24):
And so what Robert Hardin confirms is something I have
heard from numerous sources that even before the Weatherford Police
Department went out to the scene, and remember Vincent Senior
found the kids and called the Weatherford Police Department, Parker
County Sheriff's Department deputies had already been unseen but had
(47:48):
left before Robert arrived. But there is no record of
anyone calling it into the Sheriff's department. So how would
they even know the murders took place? I asked Robert
what his immediate thoughts were when he had a moment
(48:09):
to think about the crime scene and what might have happened.
Speaker 8 (48:13):
Well, at the time I thought that it was a
drug deal going bad.
Speaker 3 (48:18):
Jim, what made you think that, Well, the.
Speaker 8 (48:21):
Car that they were driving was we had a drug dealer.
That car looked like and I thought, you know, my
first thought was whenever, whenever Rogers got up here and
got thinking about it, you know that got that car.
Somebody saw that car and stopped like a drug dealer.
(48:41):
And it was like, you mean the kid. I don't
think the kids were involved anyway in anyway, you know,
in the car they were driving looked like this drug
dealer's car.
Speaker 2 (48:54):
That initial news of what Vincent Senior saw when he
approached the vehicle would soon change in a huge way.
Even Vincent's account would be called into question when new
facts later emerged. What Robert Harden witnessed when he first
arrived was not the original crime scene. I am very
(49:18):
confident of that the kids' bodies had clearly been moved.
But things become even murkier after I spoke to someone
who ran into Shelley and Vincent that night up on
Piss Hill and even spoke to them. What he has
(49:38):
to say is well, rather remarkable, throwing things and yet
another new direction.
Speaker 9 (49:48):
I'd had your beers and I need to feel real bad.
So we went up on the hill and I've seen
Vincent there in his car and I said, I will
you do a man, and he goes, oh, I'm just
out on a date, you know. And I was like, hey,
hell you young ladies.
Speaker 8 (50:05):
I don't meet you. Uh and then.
Speaker 9 (50:10):
All interested, probably watching words. And then next thing I know,
I see a super car pulled up and I'm walking
over to my car when the Trooper cars pulled up.
They pulled up behind Venfit and not theying you know,
you got them big jar head looking white boy in
(50:30):
the big change cowboy hat and all that. Now I'll say,
I'll look at dinner go from a distance, and I
was like, I had drunk and I didn't want to
come to him, so we shout out of it, like
about out of hell. And then uh, I guess I've
got I didn't see him go through town or nothing.
Speaker 2 (50:53):
Was it a Sheriff's department or was it Weatherford PD?
Speaker 8 (50:56):
Or it was chance to stay truthful.
Speaker 2 (51:10):
Check out my weekly podcast Crossing the Line with m
William Phelps, where I delve into a new missing person
and cold case murder each week. Wherever you get your
favorite shows coming up in the next episode of Paper goops,
there's no way.
Speaker 4 (51:29):
There's no way you're going to stop me from ever
finding out who murdered my child.
Speaker 5 (51:33):
I don't care.
Speaker 7 (51:33):
I will do into the diamond breath I have.
Speaker 1 (51:36):
That's scary stuff.
Speaker 10 (51:37):
It wouldn't be fair to say that we didn't have.
I mean, we obviously had a crime scene that was
worked out there on that, but with the amount of
time that elapsed, you almost experienced a similar thing there, right,
because the crime scene wasn't handled in nineteen eighty three
the way the quished is handled the day.
Speaker 5 (51:53):
Until one day are coming and I say, Okay, what's
going on, Johnny. I've been told we can't question that
it's the mayor. Something to do with the mayor.
Speaker 2 (52:14):
Paper Ghost Season five is written and executive produced by
me and William Phelps. Script consulting by iHeartMedia Executive producer
Catherine Law, Production by TOC Boom Productions, Audio mastering and
mixing by Brandon Dickert. The series theme number four four
(52:35):
to two is written and performed by Thomas Phelps and
Tom Mooney.
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