October 5, 2023 • 41 mins
Shane and Marty welcome Viktor Hovland’s swing coach, Joe Mayo, to the pod to discuss his return to golf, how TrackMan has impacted golf instruction, his approach to teaching, and his relationship with the Norwegian superstar.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The guys from Ping. They've kind of showed me how
much the equipment matters. I just love that I can
hit any shot I kind of want.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
We're gonna be able to tell some fun stories about
what goes on here to help golfers play better golf.
Speaker 3 (00:11):
Welcome back to the Pink Proving Grounds Podcast.
Speaker 4 (00:13):
I'm Shane Bacon.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
That is Marty Jertsen, who apparently maybe just got a haircut,
looks really high and tight right now.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
My friend who summertime in Phoenix been been rough Shane,
So yeah, you gotta keep it short in the summertime.
Speaker 4 (00:25):
No reason to be messing with it. We got exciting
guests today.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
A man that is also in a worn climate right now,
Joseph Mayo joining us, instructor of an instructor for discovery
properties based out of the summit in Las Vegas. And
another of a person much smarter than I am. So Joseph,
we appreciate you taking a little.
Speaker 4 (00:46):
Bit of time.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
And I was reading that you saw a track man
for the first time and it kind of opened up
your brain to this new world and that's how you
got back into golf. Can you take us back to
that moment when you first saw track Man and how
it kind of opened up this world that is now
your life.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Absolutely, and first of all, thank you guys for having me.
I appreciate it. I got out of golf and around
two thousand because I was so frustrated that, you know,
there was no way to measure anything, there was no
way to answer questions, there was no way to validate anything.
And I got out of golf and I thought nothing
of it. I never thought that I would be a
(01:27):
part of golf again. And I can't remember exactly where
we were, but my father was a cancer patient, still is,
and we were in a physicians off at some point
and I picked up some type of a golfing magazine,
don't remember what it was, and I heard about TrackMan
to Opper Radar, and that really really made me go, Wow,
maybe this is what I've been looking for. There was
(01:49):
a doctor and a caesiologist here in Las Vegas that
knew me and liked me, and he believed in my abilities.
I don't know why, but he did. And he said, hey,
let's get a track Man. I'm like, wow, sure, let's
go ahead and do that. I've got five hundred bucks
in my checking account, so let's go ahead and get one.
There were twenty six thousand dollars and we got that thing.
(02:11):
And you know, at that time, there are no there's
no Internet forums, there's no user's manual. I mean, you're
on your own. It's sink or swim. So I just
plopped that bad boy down and I just let everybody
come hit shots for me. And I started seeing all
these patterns and began putting together ball flight, if you will.
And I started to notice that, you know, no disrespect
(02:33):
to those of the past, but I began to see
that what we believe to be true was not true.
And the golf ball did not start on the club path.
It started, you know, as you guys know, basically where
the face is pointed, not one hundred percent, but basically.
And I took that and I started putting videos on
the internet, I don't know, twenty ten and some people
(02:57):
saw those videos. Brant Waite, you guys know, PJ tour
player saw it, and we developed a friendship and literally
it changed my life.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Joe, I think you're kind of like a pioneer. You're
you're you're the early adopter of track man using three D.
You know, I think I'm a PJ of America member.
Now I know the PGA of America knows that they
had to they have to level up their ballfly laws,
so to speak, and everything that was taught there. You've
influenced a lot of folks in using you know, kind
(03:26):
of bringing in three D problem solving. You know, you've
kind of taken that scientific method and applied it to golf.
I think that's one of the things you've inspired so
many not only helped so many golfers, but inspired a
lot of golf teachers to open their eyes to that.
So I feel like you've reached a lot of folks.
Who were some of the other teachers. I know you
(03:47):
just talked about figuring out a lot of this on
your own because there was no instruction, Manuel, But who
are some of the teachers, PhDs, academics, whoever, Because you
have not been afraid to, you know, reach out and
make a phone call and ask questions. That's what I
love about you. Who are some of those folks that
have helped you along this journey level up your knowledge?
Speaker 1 (04:04):
That is a great question. I have bugged you guys
at ping As you know, for the last ten years
you have been an invaluable resource. Paul would I just
I called Paul to hear his accent. You know, I
don't really care what he says. I want that sexy
accent that he's got. Eric Hemrinson there of course also
(04:25):
doctor Soshil Mackenzie. I have bugged the daylights out of him,
Doctor Young hou Kwan down in Dallas, Texas. I've bugged
him about biomechanics as well. And I'm sure I'm leaving
others out, But I don't ever want to make it
sound like I did this on my own, because that
is absolutely not true. And you guys at ping have
been an invaluable resource and I really appreciate your help
(04:47):
and support over the last ten years.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
Joe, I was interested in something you said. You said
when you started to dive into TrackMan numbers, everything that
had been kind of thought about in terms of the
golf swing was either incorrect or maybe misevaluated, or maybe
it was just simply wrong.
Speaker 4 (05:05):
What was wrong.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
About the way we thought about the way golfers hit it,
pros hit it, and what have you changed in terms
of the minds of some of the people in and
around golf instructors, professional golfers that you feel like is
now something everybody agrees on or believes that, well, believe.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
It or not. I don't think we still have a consensus.
People will still send me screenshots of people on the internet,
you know, saying hit down to make it go up,
which we know is that's silly. That doesn't happen. The
ball starts on the club path, which we know that
doesn't happen except in very very specific cases. And I
don't think it still starts on the path. It might
(05:44):
become fifty to fifty or fifty five to forty five,
but without question, the number one ball flight issue was
the golf ball starts where the path of the club
is and it curves towards the face, and that is
dead wrong. As we know, that's absolutely backward. Which it
starts basically where the face is pointed, and it actually
curves away from the club path assuming your face hit.
(06:06):
And I think one of the biggest revelations of track
Man for the masses, and it should be the biggest revelation,
is how the angle of attack, the angle of attack
can be judge, jury and executioner. And I remember, oh
my god, twelve years ago this is twenty twenty three.
Right guys. Twelve years ago minimum when I did a
(06:29):
video where I said, if your angle of attack changes
from down of you know, I eat iron to driver
and you're trying to hit the same shot, you cannot
be aimed in the same place. Yes, when you start
thinking of the three dimensional aspect of ballflight, the three
dimensional aspect of the club movement. You know, we've been
(06:50):
told for one hundred years that you got to have
good grip, good stance, good posture, but you got to
have good alignment. And I don't know what good alignment
is because the best players in the world are aimed
all over the place. Yeah, And I'd like to give
just a quick, quick, little synopsis if if someone wants
to hit a nice little draw with a seven iron
(07:12):
right handed golfer, Well, we know that the club phase
needs to be pointed somewhere right of the flag at
impact to start it there, and we know the club
path needs to be slightly right of that phase to
make it curved back to the hole. That's what we know. Well,
ball sitting on the ground and with a seven iron
it should be that means that golf club is going
to be moving down toward that golf ball, but it's
(07:33):
going to be moving out to the right some amount,
and that out helps us produce the path that we
need to hit a draw. It does. So what I'm
getting at is, with that seven iron, it's very reasonable.
It's it's very plausible for the golfer to have good
old fashioned straight railroad track alignment because the down helps
(07:54):
the out, which helps the draw. Next thing, you know,
he goes to the next te box, he tees up
a driver to hit that same draw. Well, not his
angler attack is up. Let's say it's up to it,
which is very plausible as well. He and not have
that same alignment because with the seven iron, that down
produced the out, which helped him. But now with the driver,
(08:15):
the up produces a leftward path, which does not help him.
So now you got to ask yourself two questions. A.
Are we going to change his upward angle of attack?
And I would say, heck no, not with modern golf,
not with the modern equipment. No, we want to launch
this thing in the air. That's that's a good thing.
It's a healthy thing. So if we're not going to
(08:38):
change the angle of attack being upward, how are we
going to defeat the leftward club path, which is actually
our enemy. The answer is, we're going to aim to
the right, and we're and this is what I say.
I've been saying it for ten years. You have to
aim right enough to counteract the left created by the up.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Yeah, Joe, I think like roar, he's a good example
of that. You see him aim and you've seen him
am as irons with rail look like railroad, and then
he gets to the driver and you know, looks like
he's am in thirty yards right.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Sometimes Victor Hovin comes along and just throws the monkey
bench and the whole darn thing. He aims right, hits cuts.
I mean, so there you go. You know, you've got
Roy Mackworth, what is he in the world rankings now
number three and he's aimed to the right and drawing it.
You got Victor number four in the role aim and
right and cutting it. You're like, oh my god, what's
going on. So at the end of the day, the
(09:29):
bottom line is this, In my opinion, every modern instructor
not only should know this stuff, in my opinion, he
must know this stuff. He must understand the three dimensional
travel of that golf club.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Joe I think it's pretty fun with Victor. You know,
we had him on the podcast. We talked to him,
you know, between Olympia Fields and when he won that
Tour championship, and he was describing some of his best
iron shots and working the ball all shifting his baseline,
shifting his alignments. I mean, what is it like to
have a player like Victor that's really adopted understanding three
(10:08):
D geometry, three D delivery, but then he can bring
it onto the course with his feels. You know, how
do you marry having that technical side of things with Okay,
I'm an athlete.
Speaker 4 (10:17):
I got to hit this shot.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
I'm winning the biggest tournament in the world.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Well, first of all, Victor is an extremely intelligent kid
out of golf. He's very inquisitive, and I've always believed
that the sign of intelligence is not what you say
that you know, it's the questions that you ask. And
Victor is an extremely good question asker, and he keeps
me on my toes. And I'll be completely honest with you.
(10:42):
Working for Victor's demanding because he wants answers now, he
actually wants them five minutes ago, and he wants correctness.
And you if you not that I have how, but
I can tell you if you try to slot something
by him that just doesn't pass must or you're gonna
hear about it. And so he's a smart kid, which
is good for me, because you know me, guys, I
(11:04):
like to get a little technical with times and talk
about wrist angles and tilts and all that kind of
good stuff, and he loves it. He's that stuff like candy.
But at the end of the day, make no mistake
about it. What you have seen out of Victor the
last two weeks, specifically, what you've seen this year, It's
not been some magical, mythical golfing phenomenon that I've been
(11:29):
brought that I've brought him through teaching. You're just simply
dealing with a Ferrari. You're dealing with an absolute world
class primetime player. And as I said in an interview I
did a few days ago Withgitor International, all he needed
was a little good math and a little good science.
This is what I told Victor when we started. I said,
(11:51):
with your talent level, with your ability level, if my
information is correct, if what I'm telling you is correct,
then we must see results. There can be no other way.
And if we're not seeing results, then most likely what
I'm telling you is not valid. And guys, not to
fluff my feathers. But what I have told him to do,
(12:14):
he has caught on to it immediately. You guys have
seen the results. The golfing world has seen the results.
And one last little snippet, we did not be in
short game until Riviera on Tuesday. He had a photo
shoot on Monday. We started on Tuesday and he and
his caddy, Shay were standing there and his agent, butler
(12:38):
Butler Melnott were standing there with me, and I looked
at him and I said, guys, this isn't going to
take long. This ain't gonna take long. And I'm not
so sure they believe me, but I believe not in
what I'm saying. I believe that he could do it.
And as you guys have heard me say before, anybody
that can take a four iron and put it on
(12:59):
the back of the ball at one hundred and five
miles an hour and hit a shot dead straight from
two hundred and fifty yards away to a flag, don't
tell me he can't chip a golf ball. Don't tell
me that he can't pitch a golf ball because I
don't accept that theory. I don't accept that hypothesis that
this kid can't chip a golf ball. Yeah, and now
(13:20):
the world is seeing that he can. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Joe kind of reminds me a little bit of you know,
Tiger had those struggles a little bit with chipping. It's
not a confidence thing. He doesn't need. He doesn't need
like a sports psychologist. He needs like mechanics. He needs
to improve the kinetics, you know what I mean, what
he's feeling. So give a little overview there of those
changes in the three D delivery and maybe some of
(13:44):
the angular rates right of victor short game, you know,
before and after some of these changes that were making
you know, angle of attack, delivery, things of that nature.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Well, first and foremost it is my opinion, I stress
opinion that people are bad shippers, or they become bad
shippers because they hit the ground too soon and or incorrectly.
And Victor Palvin was a living embodiment of hitting the
ground too soon and hitting it incorrectly. He had them
(14:14):
both going on. He had double whammies. And the more
he would stick it in the ground and the more
he would lay the sod over it, and the more
he would flob it, the more he believed he was
too steep. Yeah, I'm not engaging the bounce. Oh my god,
I've heard engaged the bounce for two million times. I've
heard that. And he believed that he was too steep.
Well as Marty, as you know, that was absolutely incorrect.
(14:37):
And all things being equal, a steep angle of attack
moves the low point more forward. And if the low
point is more forward or shall we say contact with
the ground, because contact with the grounds not thisssarily your
low point. I'm just trying to keep it simple for
our viewers our listeners. So as the angle of attack
becomes more steeper, all things being equal, the low point
(14:57):
becomes more forward. Well, if the low point or the
contact point with the ground is more forward, then that
means I'm not chili dipping it anymore. That means I'm
not fatting it anymore. It means I'm catching ball first,
And make no mistake about it. When you are trying
to chip at the PJ tort well, when you're trying
to chip at any level, if you cannot accurately predict contact,
(15:20):
if you cannot accurately predict the speed of the ball
off of that face, you cannot chip, and you sure
cannot chip at the tour level. So what I did
was I said, no, you're not too steep or too shallow.
We started moving the angle of attack dramatically more down.
When he came to me, his angle of attack on
a chip or a pitch was three or four degrees down,
(15:41):
and now it's twelve. He can stand there and rip
them all day long with his eyes closed now, because
what the technique has allowed him to do is catch good,
solid contact with a high frequency, which allows him to
predict what the ball is going to do before he
hits it. And if you think about it in common
(16:03):
sense terms, that's that's that's that's the good sauce. That's
that's the secret to chimping is being able to predict
what the ball is going to do. Uh. And with
that steep angle attack, now that low point is dramatically
more forward, which increases the probability of a solid hit.
That's all he needed, guys. And unfortunately he was told, well,
you can't shift if your wrist angles like that going back.
(16:26):
Well we know that's true because Jordan Spied does it,
and Dustin Johnson does it, and Brooks Koepka does it.
And the last time I checked, they're all major champions.
They were all normal in the world. When I showed
him those videos of those guys doing that, there was
like a light bulb moment. He was like wow, because
all this time he had been trying to roll that
(16:46):
risk in the backswing cup cup that wrist. No one
had ever said, no, no, no, no, no no no. Let's
get the bottom vector of spin loft, which for the
viewers out here, that's the angle of attack. Let's work
on the bottom vector, which moves the low point forward,
which allows you to predict contact. Because Marty, this is
(17:08):
what I believe to be true when we're talking spin loft.
And you know, Victor had that little spin loft thing
on the interview the other day. He said he learns
spin loft. Well, as we know, spin loft is just
an angle. You got the angle attack on the bottom,
you got the dynamic loft on the top. In my opinion,
the bottom vector is where the money's made. Anybody can
have a good top vector. I can just just open
the face that points the top vector up in there.
(17:32):
Just open the face, yep. But bottom vector that's where
the money is made, and that was his problem, and
in my opinion, it is the problem when people cannot
chip and pitch. They don't have the low point or
the contact point with the ground far and a forward.
Therefore they're hitting the ground too soon and then they're
hitting it incorrectly. And after about ten thousand unsuccessful attempts,
(17:56):
then you start doing things to not hit the ground,
and that's when this thing can get sideways quickly.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
Yes, yeah, Joe, I was just gonna ask, how did
you and Victor? How did you guys get in contact?
Like what was that initial introduction like to start to
work together.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
I called him he needed to loan me money? When
not to play poker with? I needed a loan, So
that's what I called him, though, I'm just kidding. I'm
just kidding.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
Hey, listen, now you can call him and I think
he'd probably give you that loan pretty quick.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
No, he won't give it to me, or he'll charge
me twenty percent interest. So no, he's no. The Bank
of Hobblood is closed up. Not getting in there. I've
known Victor now five years, give or take. Met him
when I went to Oklahoma State coach Bratton and coach
Darr out there had me out there to do a
little chatting with them. I met him, I met him
(18:47):
Ben and we stayed in contact. But Victor contacted me
in late twenty nineteen, I believe it was October. He
sent me his swings and I did a video analysis
like this. He was like a twenty minute analysis where
I was pre to him and guys, this is the
honest truth. Sent that video analysis to coach Brighton, coach
Dharr because I wanted complete transparency. I wanted everyone to
(19:08):
hear what I was saying to this kid. I told him,
if I'm not mistaken, I told him five times in
that video, stay away from golf instruction, stay away from golf,
including me. Stay away. You are going bleat. It's a
matter of time. And I said, you need a good
caddy and a good lawyer, not a good golf bro.
(19:30):
So he decided to come out and see me in
November of twenty nineteen and we went out to TPC
Summerlin and he just put on a ball hitting exhibition.
He's hitting four irons off the ground, He's barely touching
the turf, launching this thing two forty straight as you
can point. He put out the driver and he's hitting
it out there three hundred and twenty yards with a
(19:51):
two yard cut. And when it was over, he said,
what do you think. I think that you don't need
a golf instructors. What I think? And we went back
to my house that night and I had a little
bourbon and I said, Victor, you're a great kid. I
want to be your friend. And I said, if if
you want to drink bourbon, if you want to play poker,
(20:12):
that's fine. I'm your guy. But we're not going to
do golf instruction. We're not gonna do that. So as
an instructor, guys, As an instructor, I knew that I
had a generational talent sitting in front of me. I
knew that I had a player sitting in front of
me that quote unquote could take me places. He could
he could take me places. I was not going to
(20:35):
have that. I was not going to allow that. He
did not need my help. He did not need instruction,
in my opinion. And I told him no. And that's
a factual statement. If you asked Victor, he'll tell you that.
And then he went on his way. And fast forward
to December, he calls me and says, Joe, would you
take a look at some swings? And I did, and
(20:57):
when I saw them, I hit rid. I'll immediately, I said, Victor,
what on earth is going on? And I gave him
some preliminary thoughts on what to do. He was not
extending his nearly fast enough. We'll just keep it there
to make it short and sweet. Had some success, comes
(21:18):
out to see me in Las Vegas. We go out
to the Summit Club and when he called me in December,
his angle of attack with a seven n iron was
almost nine degrees down, eight and a half degrees down.
And as I said five minutes ago, when that angle
of attack is down, that's trying to push the path
to the right. He's trying to get cuts pass moving
(21:40):
to the right. And the more he tried to swing
out into the left, the more the angle of attack
went down, which the path went to the right. He
was a cat chasing its tail. He couldn't get the
path left of the face. When he comes out to
Vegas and I get him to extend his hips, angle
of attack goes to four degrees down immediately, and now
he can get the path over to the left of
(22:01):
the face and start cutting the ball. But the big
deal was I sent him down to Dallas, Texas to
see my good friend John Sinclair and Marty. I know
you know John, and I trust John Sinclair implicitly when
it comes to three D capture, specifically with AMM three D,
which in my opinion, as of today, it's the best.
(22:23):
It's the best we have today, and John is the
best with that. And never forget what I'm about to
say for you instructors out there, if you ever are
fortunate enough to teach a player of this caliber, you
must get three D. You must because the camera will
lie to you, your eyes will lie to you, and
if you didn't need three D, there would be no
(22:44):
such thing. But I knew that dealing with Victor and
dealing with a player of this caliber, I had to know.
I sent him down there. My suspicions were confirmed, not
to say, wow, Joe, you're right, but fisions were confirmed
which allowed me to then proceed further down the road
(23:04):
of helping him. And there is no way, no way
that I'm going to touch the golf swing of a
player at this level without knowing what I'm doing, and
the way to know what you're doing is to get
to three D.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
Yeah, Joe, I like to think about that as like,
you know, maybe you you fall, you got an injury
on your arm, it looks bruised, let's take an X ray.
That might be what you can do with your launch monitor.
But then you got to get an MRI, right, and
then you know, so that's kind of the spectrum. You know,
you're not going to treat that without getting the MRI.
(23:40):
And that's that's where I think, you know, the future
is very bright for the everyday golfer because more and
more that technology is coming right and we're using things
like learnings from our focal our three D motion system,
which is very focused on what the club is doing,
and passing along insights from there to the everyday golfer.
(24:00):
One interesting thing Joe I wanted to ask you about
Victor was he has the lowest you know, there's a
lot of different ways we can define closure rate, but
he has the lowest closure rate of any of our
tour players we've measured. This means like coming in from
P six chaft parallel to the ground to impact, that
face is already relatively square and it's only closing like
(24:24):
twenty degrees from P six to impact, where we know
one of our other tour players it might be forty
to fifty degrees right in there. Right, what is the
relation between Victor's unique wrist angles and that closure rate?
And then my relate to that, to that Joe is like,
you know, how do you tie what he does in
his full swing to his short game? And maybe that
can that could come second to that that question, Well.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
The first answer touching on right closure, yes, he is.
When Johnston Claiter measure is the lowest I've ever measured
in John's statabase is probably two hundred players, two Hunred
tour players. Yeah, I want to make it perfectly clear.
I had nothing to do with this right of QUI stuff.
I had nothing to do with that. Yeah, I'm not
so certain any instructor alive can touch into that. As
you know, Marty, rate of closure is a touchy subject
(25:08):
how it's measured. Yes, but let's be fair, let's be honest.
There are world class players who have a high rate
of closure. Yes, there are, uh and the key word
is rate. So if you look at a player that
has this this big swivel after impact, that doesn't mean
they had a high rate of closure because they could
(25:30):
have been closing this thing all the way down, which
means the rate is not quick. The rate was slow.
The total amount of closure was great, but the rate
of closure was high. But as far as Victor is concerned, Marty,
I had nothing to do with it. How he learned
to do that?
Speaker 2 (25:52):
Go ahead, Marty, because yeah I could could Yeah, I
could just be how he grew up playing and and
what what those risk conditions are, and how that kind
of relates. I think related to that, Joe would just be,
you know, and you talked about his wrist angles and
what you've seen given him permission to play with a
certain risk condition in his short game. Has that helped
Mary now that he's performing so good with short game
(26:16):
and full swing together at the same time.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
I think it's absolutely critical because as I told you before,
you know, everyone wanted him to roll that form and
cut that wrist that's one hundred eighty degrees against his DNA.
How are you supposed to step up on a green
at Augusta, Nashal on Sunday at the Masters and roll
your form, cut your wrist, roll the face wide open,
and hit a chip shot off of that tight line
(26:40):
on national television trying to win a green jacket. It's
not gonna happen. And as I said, when he saw
the videos of Dustin Brooks and Jordan, it gave him
the freedom mentally to say, wait a minute, this is okay. Yeah,
And this is what I told him. I said, if
you want the face open, just open the darn thing
in address. Just just let it. Lay it wide open
(27:01):
on the bunker, lay it flatten the bunker opened the
face of a dress. And I think, without question, part
of his success of being able to pick up on
this stuff was I did not tamper anyway with grill
for rotations and wrist angles. I did not so any
of the little finite moves that he's making that's on him.
Speaker 4 (27:22):
Yeah, I didn't touch it, Joe.
Speaker 3 (27:23):
I was interested in something you said earlier about the
golf swing, like when we first started about how there's
so many unique ways to do this now and how
we're learning so much more about the golf swing. There
was a time, you know, around the two thousands with Tiger.
It was Tiger, it was Adam Scott, and it was
this perfect move, right, everybody's got to have this perfect move.
(27:44):
Are we going towards a world where the best in
the world's golf swings are all going to look relatively different,
considering guys like Victor can kind of do it in
a different way than a Rory does it or a
Brooks does it and be just as effective.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
I don't think we're gowing that direction. I think we're
already there. We've always been there. Jack Nicholas and Lee
Trevino looked nothing alike nothing, and Roy looks nothing like Victor.
Victor has a little John Romney stuff going on, and
you're just a little bit. The only thing they've got
in common is are holding on to a golf club
getting the ball. I think now with three d uh
(28:22):
and with information being released, it's helping the instructor understand
what's going on and say, you know what, it's okay
to be different. And I'm just gonna go on the
record right now with Victor hoven Uh. Anybody that tampers
with that gross motor pattern, that overall gross motor pattern,
(28:44):
that signature that he has, you should be horse whipped
because you are looking at a world class machine. And guys,
what I've done with him has been minimalistic, and I
just tried to put him back to what he used
to be. That's all, nothing more. And I want to
stress the credit goes to the kid. Yeah, involvement in
(29:04):
this was you know, like I said, just a little
bit of math, just a little bit, but yeah, that
is that you're looking at a finely tuned machine. And
I also want to say, if we had a clone
of Victor, if we had Victor A and Victor B
and they're both standing on the range hitting balls, and
Victor B cosmetically looks like Victor A, that doesn't mean
(29:28):
Victor B is going to play like Victor A. The
cosmetics are just that part of it. When we start
talking about kinetics, then you've got to ask yourself, what
about the emotional component that Victor has to play golf
under this tremendous pressure. There's not an instructor on the
face of this earth that can teach that.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
Joe, I want to talk a little bit about friction.
So you mentioned Victor's more down now and he's getting
more predictability out of his shots. So in my mind,
from the physics of it, it's it's a double win.
It's you get more predictability of where he's going to
land that club or the low point or the interaction
between the ball and the face. And the other one
(30:08):
that compounds that and adds to it is you get
better predictability of the coefficient of friction. Yeah, so we
kind of define that as MEW. We've talked about this
this thing MEW. Victor and I, Me and you and
Victor have this funny running joke going about it. But
the more you hit down, the less time you have
to pick up water debris, get grasp between the ball
and the face. He's also switched to our glide wedges,
(30:30):
so we have really we have a hydro pearl finish
which sheds the water. It's hydrophobic and this type of stuff. Overall,
we're just kind of compounding the alignments with having a
better predictability of the friction. And I think that's also
as a player, what's put you at ease, right, it's
that unpredictability that can kind of drive you crazy with
(30:51):
the short game, right one hundred.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Percent, Marty Well said, because think of it like this
guy is because now that he can predict contact, now
that the bottom of vec or is doing its job,
now he can predict spin loft, which, as we know,
the spin loft predicts ball speed and spin rate.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
And what's amazing, guys, is this he now finds himself
swinging the club faster and the ball's going slower. Ye. Yes, ah.
And I remember long ago when I was on Twitter,
back in the old track man Maestro days, good lord,
I made a tweet long long ago and I said,
the expert golfer knows how to speed the ball up
(31:31):
in the long game and slow it down in the
short game. Yes, the poor golfer slows it down in
the long game and speeds it up in the short game.
Speaker 4 (31:41):
They do.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
And the key for this is we want you know, obviously,
there's times in a short game where you want the
ball kind of hot and running. There's times when you
don't want it spending a lot, I get it. But
generally speaking, in the short game, we want slow balls.
We want slow ball speed, we want high spin generally speaking.
And as you said, Marty, that comes from friction and
(32:03):
it comes from spin loft. And now he has both.
And when a player of Victor's talent level, when they
get out there and they do this, you know, a
few hundred times a few thousand times, and he sees
the predictability.
Speaker 4 (32:19):
It's game on.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
I want to bring up something that's topical to the
top to friction, which is Shane. Shane is on a
golf heater himself right now. He just he just played
in the USAM at Cherry Hills a few weeks ago
and just made a hole in one. And what is it,
Shane the Connecticut Midam recently. Yeah, Yeah, tell us about
your hole in one, what club you hit? What was
(32:41):
the yard age? Did you see the ball up or not?
Because this kind of relates to that friction topic.
Speaker 4 (32:45):
Yeah, I mean friction was involved. It was.
Speaker 3 (32:49):
It was kind of like a little shorty Part three
was about one hundred and twenty yards and I ted
up sand wedge and ripped it back into the hole.
So it was one of the holes in one you
dream of hitting that actually spin back in Joe. But yeah,
I got a lot of Yeah, got a lot of
got a lot of spin off of tea. I feel
like some of the time when you tee it up,
(33:09):
maybe I don't rip it back as much because I'm
not hitting down into it. But you obviously would would
would know more about that than I would.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
Well be careful when you just say it comes from
hitting down into it. It comes from not only the
hitting down part, but the loft. Remember, you got to
get the spin loft to open up. But when you
put the ball on the tee, you highly increase the
probability of clean contact, which means you highly increase the
probability of the friction, which that's where the spinner is
gonna come from. So the viewers or the listeners need
(33:38):
to be cautioned that hitting down in and of itself
is not the answer, because remember spin loft has two components.
You got the down and you got the loft. I could,
I could. I could hit down more and just take
the loft with me. I need to hit down more
and get the loft. I need to open that angle up.
I need to open that thing up. Right there, you go.
(33:58):
Need to open that spin loft angle up. And when
you do that with friction, you're going to get that
high spin rate, no question about it.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
Yeah, that's one of the fun things about that topic
of spin loft Mountain Joe, is that the cleaner the friction,
so the better your lie. You're off a tee, your
zoysia a lot of folks out there get fit or
evaluate equipment indoors. Right, you have really clean contact, then
your maximum spin or the peak of that spin loft
mountain is gonna be when your spin loft is much
(34:28):
much greater. Right, that's where you can get tons of
spin off of tea correct. But then chip, you know,
normal chipping and short game and this kind of goes
back Shane, I kind of thought of that topic of Shay.
Victor's caddy talked about the wind being light and variable
r give some nightmares. Well, I think reading your lie
around the greens, you got light and variable friction. You know,
(34:50):
it's kind of light and variable wind, and that's where
a lot of that short game in predicting the lie,
reading the lie in Joe, I think that's where you've
done magic with Victor, getting to hit more down, get
more clean contact, more predictable friction, a higher percentage of
the time.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
Yes, one hundred percent at the end of the day.
What I think the viewer needs to understand going back
is if we can increase the probability of clean contact. Agree,
if we can increase the probability of that and we
(35:24):
have you know, a good ball and we have clean grooves,
if we can increase the probability of the clean hit,
assuming that we know how to manipulate spin loft, that's
all this is. That's all this is. And and with
Victor getting him to understand that he was too shallow,
the low point was actually back, not forward. And you know,
(35:47):
with him, when he hit the ground behind the ball
about two thousand times in a row, what's he going
to do? He started actually leaning the shaft forward right
to not hit the ground. Well, when you lean the
shaft too far forward, now you start closing the spin
loft down because the bottom vector's not down enough and
(36:11):
you're delofting the club, so you're shutting spin loft down. So,
as you know, Marty, even if you do get clean
contact with a shut down spin loft.
Speaker 4 (36:21):
The spin's gone, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (36:23):
And he's throwing fastballs, which we don't want. So he
either had flubs or chips or he had fastballs, and
neither one of those are in a good situation when
you're playing on the PGA tour.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
Yeah, in those chips where the speed comes out way
hotter than your brain you know, has wired up to do.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
Think about the fear and anxiety when that happens to
you under the high schools of pressure, think about that.
Now your brain is spinning out there, and now you're like, oh,
dear God, don't miss a green. So I mean, guys,
this this short game stuff, it goes on. It transcends
all the way back through the bag. No question.
Speaker 4 (36:59):
Yeah, Joe had a question.
Speaker 3 (37:00):
Victor was telling us when we interviewed him that he
is into playing poker right now. If you've got a
chance to play any poker with him or seen him
in action and houses game.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
He is. He has improved dramatically. He has. The Only
thing about Victors he's a little impatient. He likes acting
and now with his bank role playing for playing for
five hundred dollars is not. It doesn't keep his interest
like it should.
Speaker 3 (37:23):
He's hanging around with tens that he doesn't need to be.
It's just like it's fine.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
He meant about a thirty thousand dollars buy in one
night at Bolajo, and we're going to see what he's got.
Speaker 3 (37:31):
Joe, I had I had another question for you. I
know you're into sports memorabilia. What's your what's your kind
of golden goose at home? Right? Now what do you
What do you have or what have you purchased that
your favorite item?
Speaker 1 (37:42):
Oh my god, I modestly, guys, I think I have
a museum caliber pieces. I yeah, I've got I've got
the jersey that Tom Brady wore Bucks versus Eagles in
October of twenty twenty one. I bought that directly from
Tom's charity himself. I've got Peyton Manning's AFC championship jersey
(38:03):
that he wore to beat the Patriots to get to
the Super Bowl and end that he threw his final
NFL touchdown because he did not throw one in the
Super Bowl. Yep, Peyton saw How the hell did you
get that? And I know people, Peyton, I know people.
So I've got I've got some really really good pieces
and it's just been a hobby of mine. I enjoy
the history behind it. But believe it or not, guys,
(38:25):
some of my most important pieces are the three victories,
the shirt that Victor was wearing on Sunday at Memorial
at BMW, and the Tour Championship. I have all three
of those. So those are three great the great pieces
that I'm that I'm very proud of, very.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
Special to Joe, I want to give you a nod.
I want to say. I want to say, I think
the whole golf industry owes you, you know, credit, because
you can't teach all the golfers out there, but you
you've helped push us at ping you. You know, Victor
asked you a question. You get stumped, you call us,
we get stumped. Somebody's got to keep researching. It's kind
of the synergy that we have right of keeping pushing
(39:01):
us on the R and D side. And I think
you've influenced a lot of the golf instructors out there,
and so I just want to thank you for your
help to Victor, but also helping level up all the
golf industry. You and Grant Waite early adopters, a tract
man and being practitioners, I think has really helped a
(39:22):
lot of us. And and we appreciate everything you've done
for the industry and you're doing for Victor right now.
So thank you for coming on and spending time with us, Joe,
and sharing a little insights about you know, this this
great athlete that we've had the pleasure to watch here lately.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
It's been incredible and as I said before, I appreciate
your guy support over the last ten years. So I
know I've bugged the daylights out of you. Paul doesn't
even answer the phone anymore. What I call it goes
straight to voicemail, no more answering. He'll call back in
a week or so. But now there's no more answering
with Paul. I think I've burned that bridge. I bugged
him so much, but no, Paul is very kind. But
(39:57):
at the end of the day, guys, this has been
a pleasure for me and I have learned just as
much from Victor as he has learned from me. And
you know, full disclosure, I've never had a player that
is going to be potentially number in the world one day.
I've never had a kid that can do what this
kid can do. Yeah, for all of you old college
(40:20):
basketball fans out there, there was a famous coach called
His name was Adolph Rupp. He coached the Kentucky Wildcats
long ago. He had a great statement and he said,
you don't win to Kentucky derby riding a mule. Don't
ever forget that. So if you want, I tell people,
if you want to become a great tour instructor, find
yourself a great tour.
Speaker 3 (40:39):
Player, and Victor Hovelin is definitely that. Joseph Mayo really
appreciate the time. Very interesting conversation, not just on the
golf side, but the memorabilia stuff is fascinated as well.
Speaker 4 (40:51):
I'm I'm now like looking behind.
Speaker 3 (40:53):
You in your video in your world saying I wonder
what that image is, I wonder what's signed there.
Speaker 4 (40:58):
So we really appreciate the time.
Speaker 1 (41:01):
Those back there are photographs from signed photographs from different
actors from different movies and TV shows, and that's that's
what that is.
Speaker 3 (41:09):
Love it awesome, awesome, Thank you so much for the time.
Speaker 4 (41:12):
We really appreciate it. This is the Ping Proving Grounds Podcast.
The guys from Ping. They've kind of showed me how
much the equipment matters. I just love that I can
hit any shot I kind of want.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
We're gonna be able to tell some fun stories about
what goes on here to help golfers play better golf.
Speaker 3 (00:11):
Welcome back to the Pink Proving Grounds Podcast.
Speaker 4 (00:13):
I'm Shane Bacon.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
That is Marty Jertsen, who apparently maybe just got a haircut,
looks really high and tight right now.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
My friend who summertime in Phoenix been been rough Shane,
So yeah, you gotta keep it short in the summertime.
Speaker 4 (00:25):
No reason to be messing with it. We got exciting
guests today.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
A man that is also in a worn climate right now,
Joseph Mayo joining us, instructor of an instructor for discovery
properties based out of the summit in Las Vegas. And
another of a person much smarter than I am. So Joseph,
we appreciate you taking a little.
Speaker 4 (00:46):
Bit of time.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
And I was reading that you saw a track man
for the first time and it kind of opened up
your brain to this new world and that's how you
got back into golf. Can you take us back to
that moment when you first saw track Man and how
it kind of opened up this world that is now
your life.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Absolutely, and first of all, thank you guys for having me.
I appreciate it. I got out of golf and around
two thousand because I was so frustrated that, you know,
there was no way to measure anything, there was no
way to answer questions, there was no way to validate anything.
And I got out of golf and I thought nothing
of it. I never thought that I would be a
(01:27):
part of golf again. And I can't remember exactly where
we were, but my father was a cancer patient, still is,
and we were in a physicians off at some point
and I picked up some type of a golfing magazine,
don't remember what it was, and I heard about TrackMan
to Opper Radar, and that really really made me go, Wow,
maybe this is what I've been looking for. There was
(01:49):
a doctor and a caesiologist here in Las Vegas that
knew me and liked me, and he believed in my abilities.
I don't know why, but he did. And he said, hey,
let's get a track Man. I'm like, wow, sure, let's
go ahead and do that. I've got five hundred bucks
in my checking account, so let's go ahead and get one.
There were twenty six thousand dollars and we got that thing.
(02:11):
And you know, at that time, there are no there's
no Internet forums, there's no user's manual. I mean, you're
on your own. It's sink or swim. So I just
plopped that bad boy down and I just let everybody
come hit shots for me. And I started seeing all
these patterns and began putting together ball flight, if you will.
And I started to notice that, you know, no disrespect
(02:33):
to those of the past, but I began to see
that what we believe to be true was not true.
And the golf ball did not start on the club path.
It started, you know, as you guys know, basically where
the face is pointed, not one hundred percent, but basically.
And I took that and I started putting videos on
the internet, I don't know, twenty ten and some people
(02:57):
saw those videos. Brant Waite, you guys know, PJ tour
player saw it, and we developed a friendship and literally
it changed my life.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Joe, I think you're kind of like a pioneer. You're
you're you're the early adopter of track man using three D.
You know, I think I'm a PJ of America member.
Now I know the PGA of America knows that they
had to they have to level up their ballfly laws,
so to speak, and everything that was taught there. You've
influenced a lot of folks in using you know, kind
(03:26):
of bringing in three D problem solving. You know, you've
kind of taken that scientific method and applied it to golf.
I think that's one of the things you've inspired so
many not only helped so many golfers, but inspired a
lot of golf teachers to open their eyes to that.
So I feel like you've reached a lot of folks.
Who were some of the other teachers. I know you
(03:47):
just talked about figuring out a lot of this on
your own because there was no instruction, Manuel, But who
are some of the teachers, PhDs, academics, whoever, Because you
have not been afraid to, you know, reach out and
make a phone call and ask questions. That's what I
love about you. Who are some of those folks that
have helped you along this journey level up your knowledge?
Speaker 1 (04:04):
That is a great question. I have bugged you guys
at ping As you know, for the last ten years
you have been an invaluable resource. Paul would I just
I called Paul to hear his accent. You know, I
don't really care what he says. I want that sexy
accent that he's got. Eric Hemrinson there of course also
(04:25):
doctor Soshil Mackenzie. I have bugged the daylights out of him,
Doctor Young hou Kwan down in Dallas, Texas. I've bugged
him about biomechanics as well. And I'm sure I'm leaving
others out, But I don't ever want to make it
sound like I did this on my own, because that
is absolutely not true. And you guys at ping have
been an invaluable resource and I really appreciate your help
(04:47):
and support over the last ten years.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
Joe, I was interested in something you said. You said
when you started to dive into TrackMan numbers, everything that
had been kind of thought about in terms of the
golf swing was either incorrect or maybe misevaluated, or maybe
it was just simply wrong.
Speaker 4 (05:05):
What was wrong.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
About the way we thought about the way golfers hit it,
pros hit it, and what have you changed in terms
of the minds of some of the people in and
around golf instructors, professional golfers that you feel like is
now something everybody agrees on or believes that, well, believe.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
It or not. I don't think we still have a consensus.
People will still send me screenshots of people on the internet,
you know, saying hit down to make it go up,
which we know is that's silly. That doesn't happen. The
ball starts on the club path, which we know that
doesn't happen except in very very specific cases. And I
don't think it still starts on the path. It might
(05:44):
become fifty to fifty or fifty five to forty five,
but without question, the number one ball flight issue was
the golf ball starts where the path of the club
is and it curves towards the face, and that is
dead wrong. As we know, that's absolutely backward. Which it
starts basically where the face is pointed, and it actually
curves away from the club path assuming your face hit.
(06:06):
And I think one of the biggest revelations of track
Man for the masses, and it should be the biggest revelation,
is how the angle of attack, the angle of attack
can be judge, jury and executioner. And I remember, oh
my god, twelve years ago this is twenty twenty three.
Right guys. Twelve years ago minimum when I did a
(06:29):
video where I said, if your angle of attack changes
from down of you know, I eat iron to driver
and you're trying to hit the same shot, you cannot
be aimed in the same place. Yes, when you start
thinking of the three dimensional aspect of ballflight, the three
dimensional aspect of the club movement. You know, we've been
(06:50):
told for one hundred years that you got to have
good grip, good stance, good posture, but you got to
have good alignment. And I don't know what good alignment
is because the best players in the world are aimed
all over the place. Yeah, And I'd like to give
just a quick, quick, little synopsis if if someone wants
to hit a nice little draw with a seven iron
(07:12):
right handed golfer, Well, we know that the club phase
needs to be pointed somewhere right of the flag at
impact to start it there, and we know the club
path needs to be slightly right of that phase to
make it curved back to the hole. That's what we know. Well,
ball sitting on the ground and with a seven iron
it should be that means that golf club is going
to be moving down toward that golf ball, but it's
(07:33):
going to be moving out to the right some amount,
and that out helps us produce the path that we
need to hit a draw. It does. So what I'm
getting at is, with that seven iron, it's very reasonable.
It's it's very plausible for the golfer to have good
old fashioned straight railroad track alignment because the down helps
(07:54):
the out, which helps the draw. Next thing, you know,
he goes to the next te box, he tees up
a driver to hit that same draw. Well, not his
angler attack is up. Let's say it's up to it,
which is very plausible as well. He and not have
that same alignment because with the seven iron, that down
produced the out, which helped him. But now with the driver,
(08:15):
the up produces a leftward path, which does not help him.
So now you got to ask yourself two questions. A.
Are we going to change his upward angle of attack?
And I would say, heck no, not with modern golf,
not with the modern equipment. No, we want to launch
this thing in the air. That's that's a good thing.
It's a healthy thing. So if we're not going to
(08:38):
change the angle of attack being upward, how are we
going to defeat the leftward club path, which is actually
our enemy. The answer is, we're going to aim to
the right, and we're and this is what I say.
I've been saying it for ten years. You have to
aim right enough to counteract the left created by the up.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Yeah, Joe, I think like roar, he's a good example
of that. You see him aim and you've seen him
am as irons with rail look like railroad, and then
he gets to the driver and you know, looks like
he's am in thirty yards right.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Sometimes Victor Hovin comes along and just throws the monkey
bench and the whole darn thing. He aims right, hits cuts.
I mean, so there you go. You know, you've got
Roy Mackworth, what is he in the world rankings now
number three and he's aimed to the right and drawing it.
You got Victor number four in the role aim and
right and cutting it. You're like, oh my god, what's
going on. So at the end of the day, the
(09:29):
bottom line is this, In my opinion, every modern instructor
not only should know this stuff, in my opinion, he
must know this stuff. He must understand the three dimensional
travel of that golf club.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Joe I think it's pretty fun with Victor. You know,
we had him on the podcast. We talked to him,
you know, between Olympia Fields and when he won that
Tour championship, and he was describing some of his best
iron shots and working the ball all shifting his baseline,
shifting his alignments. I mean, what is it like to
have a player like Victor that's really adopted understanding three
(10:08):
D geometry, three D delivery, but then he can bring
it onto the course with his feels. You know, how
do you marry having that technical side of things with Okay,
I'm an athlete.
Speaker 4 (10:17):
I got to hit this shot.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
I'm winning the biggest tournament in the world.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Well, first of all, Victor is an extremely intelligent kid
out of golf. He's very inquisitive, and I've always believed
that the sign of intelligence is not what you say
that you know, it's the questions that you ask. And
Victor is an extremely good question asker, and he keeps
me on my toes. And I'll be completely honest with you.
(10:42):
Working for Victor's demanding because he wants answers now, he
actually wants them five minutes ago, and he wants correctness.
And you if you not that I have how, but
I can tell you if you try to slot something
by him that just doesn't pass must or you're gonna
hear about it. And so he's a smart kid, which
is good for me, because you know me, guys, I
(11:04):
like to get a little technical with times and talk
about wrist angles and tilts and all that kind of
good stuff, and he loves it. He's that stuff like candy.
But at the end of the day, make no mistake
about it. What you have seen out of Victor the
last two weeks, specifically, what you've seen this year, It's
not been some magical, mythical golfing phenomenon that I've been
(11:29):
brought that I've brought him through teaching. You're just simply
dealing with a Ferrari. You're dealing with an absolute world
class primetime player. And as I said in an interview I
did a few days ago Withgitor International, all he needed
was a little good math and a little good science.
This is what I told Victor when we started. I said,
(11:51):
with your talent level, with your ability level, if my
information is correct, if what I'm telling you is correct,
then we must see results. There can be no other way.
And if we're not seeing results, then most likely what
I'm telling you is not valid. And guys, not to
fluff my feathers. But what I have told him to do,
(12:14):
he has caught on to it immediately. You guys have
seen the results. The golfing world has seen the results.
And one last little snippet, we did not be in
short game until Riviera on Tuesday. He had a photo
shoot on Monday. We started on Tuesday and he and
his caddy, Shay were standing there and his agent, butler
(12:38):
Butler Melnott were standing there with me, and I looked
at him and I said, guys, this isn't going to
take long. This ain't gonna take long. And I'm not
so sure they believe me, but I believe not in
what I'm saying. I believe that he could do it.
And as you guys have heard me say before, anybody
that can take a four iron and put it on
(12:59):
the back of the ball at one hundred and five
miles an hour and hit a shot dead straight from
two hundred and fifty yards away to a flag, don't
tell me he can't chip a golf ball. Don't tell
me that he can't pitch a golf ball because I
don't accept that theory. I don't accept that hypothesis that
this kid can't chip a golf ball. Yeah, and now
(13:20):
the world is seeing that he can. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Joe kind of reminds me a little bit of you know,
Tiger had those struggles a little bit with chipping. It's
not a confidence thing. He doesn't need. He doesn't need
like a sports psychologist. He needs like mechanics. He needs
to improve the kinetics, you know what I mean, what
he's feeling. So give a little overview there of those
changes in the three D delivery and maybe some of
(13:44):
the angular rates right of victor short game, you know,
before and after some of these changes that were making
you know, angle of attack, delivery, things of that nature.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Well, first and foremost it is my opinion, I stress
opinion that people are bad shippers, or they become bad
shippers because they hit the ground too soon and or incorrectly.
And Victor Palvin was a living embodiment of hitting the
ground too soon and hitting it incorrectly. He had them
(14:14):
both going on. He had double whammies. And the more
he would stick it in the ground and the more
he would lay the sod over it, and the more
he would flob it, the more he believed he was
too steep. Yeah, I'm not engaging the bounce. Oh my god,
I've heard engaged the bounce for two million times. I've
heard that. And he believed that he was too steep.
Well as Marty, as you know, that was absolutely incorrect.
(14:37):
And all things being equal, a steep angle of attack
moves the low point more forward. And if the low
point is more forward or shall we say contact with
the ground, because contact with the grounds not thisssarily your
low point. I'm just trying to keep it simple for
our viewers our listeners. So as the angle of attack
becomes more steeper, all things being equal, the low point
(14:57):
becomes more forward. Well, if the low point or the
contact point with the ground is more forward, then that
means I'm not chili dipping it anymore. That means I'm
not fatting it anymore. It means I'm catching ball first,
And make no mistake about it. When you are trying
to chip at the PJ tort well, when you're trying
to chip at any level, if you cannot accurately predict contact,
(15:20):
if you cannot accurately predict the speed of the ball
off of that face, you cannot chip, and you sure
cannot chip at the tour level. So what I did
was I said, no, you're not too steep or too shallow.
We started moving the angle of attack dramatically more down.
When he came to me, his angle of attack on
a chip or a pitch was three or four degrees down,
(15:41):
and now it's twelve. He can stand there and rip
them all day long with his eyes closed now, because
what the technique has allowed him to do is catch good,
solid contact with a high frequency, which allows him to
predict what the ball is going to do before he
hits it. And if you think about it in common
(16:03):
sense terms, that's that's that's that's the good sauce. That's
that's the secret to chimping is being able to predict
what the ball is going to do. Uh. And with
that steep angle attack, now that low point is dramatically
more forward, which increases the probability of a solid hit.
That's all he needed, guys. And unfortunately he was told, well,
you can't shift if your wrist angles like that going back.
(16:26):
Well we know that's true because Jordan Spied does it,
and Dustin Johnson does it, and Brooks Koepka does it.
And the last time I checked, they're all major champions.
They were all normal in the world. When I showed
him those videos of those guys doing that, there was
like a light bulb moment. He was like wow, because
all this time he had been trying to roll that
(16:46):
risk in the backswing cup cup that wrist. No one
had ever said, no, no, no, no, no no no. Let's
get the bottom vector of spin loft, which for the
viewers out here, that's the angle of attack. Let's work
on the bottom vector, which moves the low point forward,
which allows you to predict contact. Because Marty, this is
(17:08):
what I believe to be true when we're talking spin loft.
And you know, Victor had that little spin loft thing
on the interview the other day. He said he learns
spin loft. Well, as we know, spin loft is just
an angle. You got the angle attack on the bottom,
you got the dynamic loft on the top. In my opinion,
the bottom vector is where the money's made. Anybody can
have a good top vector. I can just just open
the face that points the top vector up in there.
(17:32):
Just open the face, yep. But bottom vector that's where
the money is made, and that was his problem, and
in my opinion, it is the problem when people cannot
chip and pitch. They don't have the low point or
the contact point with the ground far and a forward.
Therefore they're hitting the ground too soon and then they're
hitting it incorrectly. And after about ten thousand unsuccessful attempts,
(17:56):
then you start doing things to not hit the ground,
and that's when this thing can get sideways quickly.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
Yes, yeah, Joe, I was just gonna ask, how did
you and Victor? How did you guys get in contact?
Like what was that initial introduction like to start to
work together.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
I called him he needed to loan me money? When
not to play poker with? I needed a loan, So
that's what I called him, though, I'm just kidding. I'm
just kidding.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
Hey, listen, now you can call him and I think
he'd probably give you that loan pretty quick.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
No, he won't give it to me, or he'll charge
me twenty percent interest. So no, he's no. The Bank
of Hobblood is closed up. Not getting in there. I've
known Victor now five years, give or take. Met him
when I went to Oklahoma State coach Bratton and coach
Darr out there had me out there to do a
little chatting with them. I met him, I met him
(18:47):
Ben and we stayed in contact. But Victor contacted me
in late twenty nineteen, I believe it was October. He
sent me his swings and I did a video analysis
like this. He was like a twenty minute analysis where
I was pre to him and guys, this is the
honest truth. Sent that video analysis to coach Brighton, coach
Dharr because I wanted complete transparency. I wanted everyone to
(19:08):
hear what I was saying to this kid. I told him,
if I'm not mistaken, I told him five times in
that video, stay away from golf instruction, stay away from golf,
including me. Stay away. You are going bleat. It's a
matter of time. And I said, you need a good
caddy and a good lawyer, not a good golf bro.
(19:30):
So he decided to come out and see me in
November of twenty nineteen and we went out to TPC
Summerlin and he just put on a ball hitting exhibition.
He's hitting four irons off the ground, He's barely touching
the turf, launching this thing two forty straight as you
can point. He put out the driver and he's hitting
it out there three hundred and twenty yards with a
(19:51):
two yard cut. And when it was over, he said,
what do you think. I think that you don't need
a golf instructors. What I think? And we went back
to my house that night and I had a little
bourbon and I said, Victor, you're a great kid. I
want to be your friend. And I said, if if
you want to drink bourbon, if you want to play poker,
(20:12):
that's fine. I'm your guy. But we're not going to
do golf instruction. We're not gonna do that. So as
an instructor, guys, As an instructor, I knew that I
had a generational talent sitting in front of me. I
knew that I had a player sitting in front of
me that quote unquote could take me places. He could
he could take me places. I was not going to
(20:35):
have that. I was not going to allow that. He
did not need my help. He did not need instruction,
in my opinion. And I told him no. And that's
a factual statement. If you asked Victor, he'll tell you that.
And then he went on his way. And fast forward
to December, he calls me and says, Joe, would you
take a look at some swings? And I did, and
(20:57):
when I saw them, I hit rid. I'll immediately, I said, Victor,
what on earth is going on? And I gave him
some preliminary thoughts on what to do. He was not
extending his nearly fast enough. We'll just keep it there
to make it short and sweet. Had some success, comes
(21:18):
out to see me in Las Vegas. We go out
to the Summit Club and when he called me in December,
his angle of attack with a seven n iron was
almost nine degrees down, eight and a half degrees down.
And as I said five minutes ago, when that angle
of attack is down, that's trying to push the path
to the right. He's trying to get cuts pass moving
(21:40):
to the right. And the more he tried to swing
out into the left, the more the angle of attack
went down, which the path went to the right. He
was a cat chasing its tail. He couldn't get the
path left of the face. When he comes out to
Vegas and I get him to extend his hips, angle
of attack goes to four degrees down immediately, and now
he can get the path over to the left of
(22:01):
the face and start cutting the ball. But the big
deal was I sent him down to Dallas, Texas to
see my good friend John Sinclair and Marty. I know
you know John, and I trust John Sinclair implicitly when
it comes to three D capture, specifically with AMM three D,
which in my opinion, as of today, it's the best.
(22:23):
It's the best we have today, and John is the
best with that. And never forget what I'm about to
say for you instructors out there, if you ever are
fortunate enough to teach a player of this caliber, you
must get three D. You must because the camera will
lie to you, your eyes will lie to you, and
if you didn't need three D, there would be no
(22:44):
such thing. But I knew that dealing with Victor and
dealing with a player of this caliber, I had to know.
I sent him down there. My suspicions were confirmed, not
to say, wow, Joe, you're right, but fisions were confirmed
which allowed me to then proceed further down the road
(23:04):
of helping him. And there is no way, no way
that I'm going to touch the golf swing of a
player at this level without knowing what I'm doing, and
the way to know what you're doing is to get
to three D.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
Yeah, Joe, I like to think about that as like,
you know, maybe you you fall, you got an injury
on your arm, it looks bruised, let's take an X ray.
That might be what you can do with your launch monitor.
But then you got to get an MRI, right, and
then you know, so that's kind of the spectrum. You know,
you're not going to treat that without getting the MRI.
(23:40):
And that's that's where I think, you know, the future
is very bright for the everyday golfer because more and
more that technology is coming right and we're using things
like learnings from our focal our three D motion system,
which is very focused on what the club is doing,
and passing along insights from there to the everyday golfer.
(24:00):
One interesting thing Joe I wanted to ask you about
Victor was he has the lowest you know, there's a
lot of different ways we can define closure rate, but
he has the lowest closure rate of any of our
tour players we've measured. This means like coming in from
P six chaft parallel to the ground to impact, that
face is already relatively square and it's only closing like
(24:24):
twenty degrees from P six to impact, where we know
one of our other tour players it might be forty
to fifty degrees right in there. Right, what is the
relation between Victor's unique wrist angles and that closure rate?
And then my relate to that, to that Joe is like,
you know, how do you tie what he does in
his full swing to his short game? And maybe that
can that could come second to that that question, Well.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
The first answer touching on right closure, yes, he is.
When Johnston Claiter measure is the lowest I've ever measured
in John's statabase is probably two hundred players, two Hunred
tour players. Yeah, I want to make it perfectly clear.
I had nothing to do with this right of QUI stuff.
I had nothing to do with that. Yeah, I'm not
so certain any instructor alive can touch into that. As
you know, Marty, rate of closure is a touchy subject
(25:08):
how it's measured. Yes, but let's be fair, let's be honest.
There are world class players who have a high rate
of closure. Yes, there are, uh and the key word
is rate. So if you look at a player that
has this this big swivel after impact, that doesn't mean
they had a high rate of closure because they could
(25:30):
have been closing this thing all the way down, which
means the rate is not quick. The rate was slow.
The total amount of closure was great, but the rate
of closure was high. But as far as Victor is concerned, Marty,
I had nothing to do with it. How he learned
to do that?
Speaker 2 (25:52):
Go ahead, Marty, because yeah I could could Yeah, I
could just be how he grew up playing and and
what what those risk conditions are, and how that kind
of relates. I think related to that, Joe would just be,
you know, and you talked about his wrist angles and
what you've seen given him permission to play with a
certain risk condition in his short game. Has that helped
Mary now that he's performing so good with short game
(26:16):
and full swing together at the same time.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
I think it's absolutely critical because as I told you before,
you know, everyone wanted him to roll that form and
cut that wrist that's one hundred eighty degrees against his DNA.
How are you supposed to step up on a green
at Augusta, Nashal on Sunday at the Masters and roll
your form, cut your wrist, roll the face wide open,
and hit a chip shot off of that tight line
(26:40):
on national television trying to win a green jacket. It's
not gonna happen. And as I said, when he saw
the videos of Dustin Brooks and Jordan, it gave him
the freedom mentally to say, wait a minute, this is okay. Yeah,
And this is what I told him. I said, if
you want the face open, just open the darn thing
in address. Just just let it. Lay it wide open
(27:01):
on the bunker, lay it flatten the bunker opened the
face of a dress. And I think, without question, part
of his success of being able to pick up on
this stuff was I did not tamper anyway with grill
for rotations and wrist angles. I did not so any
of the little finite moves that he's making that's on him.
Speaker 4 (27:22):
Yeah, I didn't touch it, Joe.
Speaker 3 (27:23):
I was interested in something you said earlier about the
golf swing, like when we first started about how there's
so many unique ways to do this now and how
we're learning so much more about the golf swing. There
was a time, you know, around the two thousands with Tiger.
It was Tiger, it was Adam Scott, and it was
this perfect move, right, everybody's got to have this perfect move.
(27:44):
Are we going towards a world where the best in
the world's golf swings are all going to look relatively different,
considering guys like Victor can kind of do it in
a different way than a Rory does it or a
Brooks does it and be just as effective.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
I don't think we're gowing that direction. I think we're
already there. We've always been there. Jack Nicholas and Lee
Trevino looked nothing alike nothing, and Roy looks nothing like Victor.
Victor has a little John Romney stuff going on, and
you're just a little bit. The only thing they've got
in common is are holding on to a golf club
getting the ball. I think now with three d uh
(28:22):
and with information being released, it's helping the instructor understand
what's going on and say, you know what, it's okay
to be different. And I'm just gonna go on the
record right now with Victor hoven Uh. Anybody that tampers
with that gross motor pattern, that overall gross motor pattern,
(28:44):
that signature that he has, you should be horse whipped
because you are looking at a world class machine. And guys,
what I've done with him has been minimalistic, and I
just tried to put him back to what he used
to be. That's all, nothing more. And I want to
stress the credit goes to the kid. Yeah, involvement in
(29:04):
this was you know, like I said, just a little
bit of math, just a little bit, but yeah, that
is that you're looking at a finely tuned machine. And
I also want to say, if we had a clone
of Victor, if we had Victor A and Victor B
and they're both standing on the range hitting balls, and
Victor B cosmetically looks like Victor A, that doesn't mean
(29:28):
Victor B is going to play like Victor A. The
cosmetics are just that part of it. When we start
talking about kinetics, then you've got to ask yourself, what
about the emotional component that Victor has to play golf
under this tremendous pressure. There's not an instructor on the
face of this earth that can teach that.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
Joe, I want to talk a little bit about friction.
So you mentioned Victor's more down now and he's getting
more predictability out of his shots. So in my mind,
from the physics of it, it's it's a double win.
It's you get more predictability of where he's going to
land that club or the low point or the interaction
between the ball and the face. And the other one
(30:08):
that compounds that and adds to it is you get
better predictability of the coefficient of friction. Yeah, so we
kind of define that as MEW. We've talked about this
this thing MEW. Victor and I, Me and you and
Victor have this funny running joke going about it. But
the more you hit down, the less time you have
to pick up water debris, get grasp between the ball
and the face. He's also switched to our glide wedges,
(30:30):
so we have really we have a hydro pearl finish
which sheds the water. It's hydrophobic and this type of stuff. Overall,
we're just kind of compounding the alignments with having a
better predictability of the friction. And I think that's also
as a player, what's put you at ease, right, it's
that unpredictability that can kind of drive you crazy with
(30:51):
the short game, right one hundred.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Percent, Marty Well said, because think of it like this
guy is because now that he can predict contact, now
that the bottom of vec or is doing its job,
now he can predict spin loft, which, as we know,
the spin loft predicts ball speed and spin rate.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
And what's amazing, guys, is this he now finds himself
swinging the club faster and the ball's going slower. Ye. Yes, ah.
And I remember long ago when I was on Twitter,
back in the old track man Maestro days, good lord,
I made a tweet long long ago and I said,
the expert golfer knows how to speed the ball up
(31:31):
in the long game and slow it down in the
short game. Yes, the poor golfer slows it down in
the long game and speeds it up in the short game.
Speaker 4 (31:41):
They do.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
And the key for this is we want you know, obviously,
there's times in a short game where you want the
ball kind of hot and running. There's times when you
don't want it spending a lot, I get it. But
generally speaking, in the short game, we want slow balls.
We want slow ball speed, we want high spin generally speaking.
And as you said, Marty, that comes from friction and
(32:03):
it comes from spin loft. And now he has both.
And when a player of Victor's talent level, when they
get out there and they do this, you know, a
few hundred times a few thousand times, and he sees
the predictability.
Speaker 4 (32:19):
It's game on.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
I want to bring up something that's topical to the
top to friction, which is Shane. Shane is on a
golf heater himself right now. He just he just played
in the USAM at Cherry Hills a few weeks ago
and just made a hole in one. And what is it,
Shane the Connecticut Midam recently. Yeah, Yeah, tell us about
your hole in one, what club you hit? What was
(32:41):
the yard age? Did you see the ball up or not?
Because this kind of relates to that friction topic.
Speaker 4 (32:45):
Yeah, I mean friction was involved. It was.
Speaker 3 (32:49):
It was kind of like a little shorty Part three
was about one hundred and twenty yards and I ted
up sand wedge and ripped it back into the hole.
So it was one of the holes in one you
dream of hitting that actually spin back in Joe. But yeah,
I got a lot of Yeah, got a lot of
got a lot of spin off of tea. I feel
like some of the time when you tee it up,
(33:09):
maybe I don't rip it back as much because I'm
not hitting down into it. But you obviously would would
would know more about that than I would.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
Well be careful when you just say it comes from
hitting down into it. It comes from not only the
hitting down part, but the loft. Remember, you got to
get the spin loft to open up. But when you
put the ball on the tee, you highly increase the
probability of clean contact, which means you highly increase the
probability of the friction, which that's where the spinner is
gonna come from. So the viewers or the listeners need
(33:38):
to be cautioned that hitting down in and of itself
is not the answer, because remember spin loft has two components.
You got the down and you got the loft. I could,
I could. I could hit down more and just take
the loft with me. I need to hit down more
and get the loft. I need to open that angle up.
I need to open that thing up. Right there, you go.
(33:58):
Need to open that spin loft angle up. And when
you do that with friction, you're going to get that
high spin rate, no question about it.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
Yeah, that's one of the fun things about that topic
of spin loft Mountain Joe, is that the cleaner the friction,
so the better your lie. You're off a tee, your
zoysia a lot of folks out there get fit or
evaluate equipment indoors. Right, you have really clean contact, then
your maximum spin or the peak of that spin loft
mountain is gonna be when your spin loft is much
(34:28):
much greater. Right, that's where you can get tons of
spin off of tea correct. But then chip, you know,
normal chipping and short game and this kind of goes
back Shane, I kind of thought of that topic of Shay.
Victor's caddy talked about the wind being light and variable
r give some nightmares. Well, I think reading your lie
around the greens, you got light and variable friction. You know,
(34:50):
it's kind of light and variable wind, and that's where
a lot of that short game in predicting the lie,
reading the lie in Joe, I think that's where you've
done magic with Victor, getting to hit more down, get
more clean contact, more predictable friction, a higher percentage of
the time.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
Yes, one hundred percent at the end of the day.
What I think the viewer needs to understand going back
is if we can increase the probability of clean contact. Agree,
if we can increase the probability of that and we
(35:24):
have you know, a good ball and we have clean grooves,
if we can increase the probability of the clean hit,
assuming that we know how to manipulate spin loft, that's
all this is. That's all this is. And and with
Victor getting him to understand that he was too shallow,
the low point was actually back, not forward. And you know,
(35:47):
with him, when he hit the ground behind the ball
about two thousand times in a row, what's he going
to do? He started actually leaning the shaft forward right
to not hit the ground. Well, when you lean the
shaft too far forward, now you start closing the spin
loft down because the bottom vector's not down enough and
(36:11):
you're delofting the club, so you're shutting spin loft down. So,
as you know, Marty, even if you do get clean
contact with a shut down spin loft.
Speaker 4 (36:21):
The spin's gone, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (36:23):
And he's throwing fastballs, which we don't want. So he
either had flubs or chips or he had fastballs, and
neither one of those are in a good situation when
you're playing on the PGA tour.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
Yeah, in those chips where the speed comes out way
hotter than your brain you know, has wired up to do.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
Think about the fear and anxiety when that happens to
you under the high schools of pressure, think about that.
Now your brain is spinning out there, and now you're like, oh,
dear God, don't miss a green. So I mean, guys,
this this short game stuff, it goes on. It transcends
all the way back through the bag. No question.
Speaker 4 (36:59):
Yeah, Joe had a question.
Speaker 3 (37:00):
Victor was telling us when we interviewed him that he
is into playing poker right now. If you've got a
chance to play any poker with him or seen him
in action and houses game.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
He is. He has improved dramatically. He has. The Only
thing about Victors he's a little impatient. He likes acting
and now with his bank role playing for playing for
five hundred dollars is not. It doesn't keep his interest
like it should.
Speaker 3 (37:23):
He's hanging around with tens that he doesn't need to be.
It's just like it's fine.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
He meant about a thirty thousand dollars buy in one
night at Bolajo, and we're going to see what he's got.
Speaker 3 (37:31):
Joe, I had I had another question for you. I
know you're into sports memorabilia. What's your what's your kind
of golden goose at home? Right? Now what do you
What do you have or what have you purchased that
your favorite item?
Speaker 1 (37:42):
Oh my god, I modestly, guys, I think I have
a museum caliber pieces. I yeah, I've got I've got
the jersey that Tom Brady wore Bucks versus Eagles in
October of twenty twenty one. I bought that directly from
Tom's charity himself. I've got Peyton Manning's AFC championship jersey
(38:03):
that he wore to beat the Patriots to get to
the Super Bowl and end that he threw his final
NFL touchdown because he did not throw one in the
Super Bowl. Yep, Peyton saw How the hell did you
get that? And I know people, Peyton, I know people.
So I've got I've got some really really good pieces
and it's just been a hobby of mine. I enjoy
the history behind it. But believe it or not, guys,
(38:25):
some of my most important pieces are the three victories,
the shirt that Victor was wearing on Sunday at Memorial
at BMW, and the Tour Championship. I have all three
of those. So those are three great the great pieces
that I'm that I'm very proud of, very.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
Special to Joe, I want to give you a nod.
I want to say. I want to say, I think
the whole golf industry owes you, you know, credit, because
you can't teach all the golfers out there, but you
you've helped push us at ping you. You know, Victor
asked you a question. You get stumped, you call us,
we get stumped. Somebody's got to keep researching. It's kind
of the synergy that we have right of keeping pushing
(39:01):
us on the R and D side. And I think
you've influenced a lot of the golf instructors out there,
and so I just want to thank you for your
help to Victor, but also helping level up all the
golf industry. You and Grant Waite early adopters, a tract
man and being practitioners, I think has really helped a
(39:22):
lot of us. And and we appreciate everything you've done
for the industry and you're doing for Victor right now.
So thank you for coming on and spending time with us, Joe,
and sharing a little insights about you know, this this
great athlete that we've had the pleasure to watch here lately.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
It's been incredible and as I said before, I appreciate
your guy support over the last ten years. So I
know I've bugged the daylights out of you. Paul doesn't
even answer the phone anymore. What I call it goes
straight to voicemail, no more answering. He'll call back in
a week or so. But now there's no more answering
with Paul. I think I've burned that bridge. I bugged
him so much, but no, Paul is very kind. But
(39:57):
at the end of the day, guys, this has been
a pleasure for me and I have learned just as
much from Victor as he has learned from me. And
you know, full disclosure, I've never had a player that
is going to be potentially number in the world one day.
I've never had a kid that can do what this
kid can do. Yeah, for all of you old college
(40:20):
basketball fans out there, there was a famous coach called
His name was Adolph Rupp. He coached the Kentucky Wildcats
long ago. He had a great statement and he said,
you don't win to Kentucky derby riding a mule. Don't
ever forget that. So if you want, I tell people,
if you want to become a great tour instructor, find
yourself a great tour.
Speaker 3 (40:39):
Player, and Victor Hovelin is definitely that. Joseph Mayo really
appreciate the time. Very interesting conversation, not just on the
golf side, but the memorabilia stuff is fascinated as well.
Speaker 4 (40:51):
I'm I'm now like looking behind.
Speaker 3 (40:53):
You in your video in your world saying I wonder
what that image is, I wonder what's signed there.
Speaker 4 (40:58):
So we really appreciate the time.
Speaker 1 (41:01):
Those back there are photographs from signed photographs from different
actors from different movies and TV shows, and that's that's
what that is.
Speaker 3 (41:09):
Love it awesome, awesome, Thank you so much for the time.
Speaker 4 (41:12):
We really appreciate it. This is the Ping Proving Grounds Podcast.
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