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June 29, 2020 61 mins

It's the very first episode of our show about books that have been getting the Hollywood treatment! Our first read: Normal People by Sally Rooney, now a series on Hulu. Read along with us! Or don't — this isn't English class, we won't tell.

In the first part of our discussion, we talk Marianne at high school, and why we'll never forgive Connell for not taking her to Debs.

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(Our next book will be I Know This Much Is True by Wally Lamb if you want to read along)

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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hey there. This is Danish sports and this is Popcorn
Book Club from My Heart Radio, a show where four
of my smartest and funniest friends gathered together to talk
about books that are getting the Hollywood treatment. This episode,
we're talking about the many ways that Sally Rooney's Normal
People has gotten under our skin. And I realized that

(00:25):
it's like, oh, I am projecting my own relationships and
passed onto the Connells that I've encountered. And so then
when he was this living, breathing other person that was
also like very handsome, it was like, oh, I could
fix him and with an Irish accent that's very important.

(00:46):
Oh this is gonna be so much fun. All right,
let's get to it. Today we're talking about Normal People,
which just feels like it became this giant trendy book
obviously by Sally Rooney, very young Irish author and now
a critically acclaimed Hulu series. And I'm joined today by
uh my lovely co hosts Jennifer Wright, who's a brilliant

(01:09):
author of the hilarious books It Ended Badly and Get
Well soon. Hi Jenny, Hi, it's nice to be here.
And what is your experience with Sally Rooney and or
Normal People? Did you read it for the first time
for this Oh, I read Normal People for the first
time for this book club, so it was my first
Sally Rooney read. Um. I loved it. I think it

(01:31):
is a beautiful book about a terrible, terrible, terrible relationship.
And UM, I wish people would stop talking about how
like this is so romantic. No, it's not. Their relationship
needs to end. Um. And I hate columns, so I
look forward to talking about that. But they're cute. But
they're good looking, Jennifer, did you think about that? I

(01:51):
did think about how they're both very hot, especially in
the TV show, and it is normal to want to
smush hot people's faces together like Barbie dolls and make
them kiss. But um, but I do not think it
is enough to make it a good relationship. We also
have Karama down Qua, an amazing actor and writer. Karama,

(02:12):
what were your first impressions of Normal People? I gotta
say I I asked, are these normal people? Because I don't.
But I did enjoy the book. Um, I would have
loved a quotation mark somewhere in there. There were no
quotation marks for any of the dialogue. That is a
me issue that has no bearing on the content of

(02:34):
the book, but I thought it was a well written
portrayal of a very messy relationship. I think I hate
Connell a little less than everybody else. I don't like him,
but I don't hate him, and I do think that
he does demonstrate growth, which I'm really excited to talk
about important discussions. We also have Tian Tran, a amazing
comedian and actor. Tian First Impressions of Normal People. Oh well,

(02:57):
this was the first time I've read a Sally Rooney
and I did text Dana as I was reading it
that it gave me a straight nightmare. Um, I woke
up one morning thinking that I was straight, and it's
like I had a dream that I was straight. I
am not, and truly, truly, being straight is the nightmare.
Telling it was not straight. This is not the nightmare

(03:19):
since I was living a lie in my dream, but
I did. I really enjoyed it as a as like
a very well written piece about a terrible relationship, but
it really does feel like a straight nightmare to me.
And finally we have Melissa Hunter, who's an amazing writer, actor, comedian,

(03:41):
multi hyphen It of every every variable, every every hyphen
I can think of, Melissa, what was your experience with
normal People? Oh my god. First of all, thank you
so much for all of those hyphens and enthusiasm. So
this is the second time I've read Normal People. I
read it last summer. Uh, and you don't get you

(04:01):
don't get bonus points was um, but it was interesting
also reading it for a second time and in conjunction
watching the show, UM, it felt like on second read,
I didn't like connall more. But also it brought to

(04:21):
me it felt like every one of my teenage to
early twenties relationships that I had, and so it made
me feel really happy that I am beyond the Marianne
conall years of my life. And uh made me feel like,
oh wow, we all kind of hate each hate ourselves
when we're young, and that's so hard all the time.

(04:45):
And it made me feel sad for younger people and
some of us still I believe in you, Dana. Just
a quick note about this podcast. We are going to
get into spoilers and a full discussion. I mean, you
don't necessary really have to have read the book to
and hopefully enjoy it and understand it. I mean, plenty

(05:06):
of people sit through English classes without reading the book.
But uh, we are going to get into spoilers with
the understanding that you you are familiar with the ending
and have gotten there. The first step would be just
sort of discussed the plot of the book in broad strokes. Gramma,
you want to take sort of the first leg of
how you would describe maybe like the first act of
the book. Sure, yeah, Marianne Sheridan and Connell Waldron are

(05:31):
these two teens. Marianne is not attractive by the standards
of her school because she doesn't wear makeup. That is
literally what they say in the book, which I found
very offensive as someone who didn't wear makeup in high
school but was still very hot. No one knew but
I knew. Well, I think we also should clarify that

(05:52):
I think Marianne is objectively hot, but you know, that
could also be the TV if the cation of the book,
it could be that she was not intended to be
objectively hot. But see I say about the TV ification
of that character. But I actually think this is the
important first conversation to have because I have been reading

(06:13):
people having the take like, oh, she's too attractive, where
I did read it assuming that she always was attractive.
She gets to college, people are like, yes, that is
a conventionally attractive person, and just in high school, because
she's like weird in her personality, people don't see that.
Like I will say, in my high school there were

(06:34):
um people who were like genuinely gorgeous who my mom
would always be like, do you know who's beautiful that
so and so girl? And she'd be like, oh, she's
so weird, like bla, no, but you were beautiful, Like
I do think that girls in high school have very
weird standards of attractiveness that are not objective, pretty pretty standards. Yes, yes, absolutely, yeah.

(07:00):
But I also one of those things that did bother
me a little bit about the depiction of her in
high school was maybe it was just my high school,
but I'm pretty sure that people would be really excited
if a fellow classmate told a teacher that they had
nothing to learn from and then walked out of the room,
Like that would automatically make you a badass, at least

(07:22):
were I went to school, and people would have really
respected it. And it's very bizarre to me that in
this school everybody's like, oh, don't pay any attention to her. Sir,
she's weird and we don't like her. Why are made
the teacher's sigh. Maybe it's Ireland. Maybe the Irish people
are any Irish listeners. It's not the worst stereotype about

(07:45):
Irish people, but they respected teachers, teachers too much. It
did remind me, I have to say, it reminded me
of the pilot episode of Veronica Mars. Veronica is sort
of characterized in that same way, where she's very rude
to teachers and she's just kind of like life's a
bit and then you die. Direct quote from Baron Mars,

(08:07):
my favorite show, which I'll just mentioned many times through podcast.
I'm sure the important thing of Veronica Mars is she
is Kristen Bell objectively gorgeous. Yes, But however, Dana counterpoint,
she was popular Veronica Mars. This might turn into a
Veronica Marks Enough podcast soon. Um, but she was popular. Yes, yes,

(08:29):
you only need to watch seasons one and two and
then the movie. You don't need to watch season three
or season four writing Yes, no, season one is a perfect,
a perfect season of television. Although she does wear seven jeans,
which really bothered me because she was poor and I
couldn't afford seven jeans, and I'm like, how is it

(08:50):
that you get like a variety of seven genes when
they were like Kristen Bell, they just give you free things.
Oh okay, I always just assume Duncan bought them for her.
You know what. We need to move on. But it's
too early. So my frustration with the Mary like I

(09:10):
bought it in the book the TV. I think the
actress is amazing. I think she is so conventionally beautiful
that it is distracting. Um But I I felt like,
if you are beautiful and rich and also have a
confident attitude in my high school, you are just popular
no matter what you do, even if you reject it. Um.

(09:33):
I I imagined her as like the kind of beautiful
that high school kids do not understand yet, you know,
of like the cool, off kilter beautiful that like becomes
the models in four years, you know. But so that
made more sense to me. That's true. That's that's where

(09:54):
my brain was at two of Like, you know, in
high school, all the popular girls that were like the
hot popular girls had a very conventional like cheerleaders set
it that like I didn't necessarily gravitate towards or like
understand necessarily, but knew that in my brain that was
like conventionally attractive or as now I see some of

(10:15):
the high school, like some of my nerdy your friends,
those of us who were like in orchestra or would
be like considered weird. Um, we're all hot now, Definitely
I think I was. I was picturing that too, where
it's like, especially in my high school, it was a
very materialistic culture, and it's like if you didn't flat

(10:35):
iron your hair and wear ug moods and tuck your
jeans into your ug boats and where your north face jacket, like,
you just more non considered attractive no matter what your
face looks like. It's like if your face had flat
ironed hair on either side of it, they're like, great,
you passed. Um. So I feel like the only person
here whose high school probably would have reacted the same way.

(10:57):
I feel like if somebody went off on a teacher,
people be like, oh my god, because I feel like
it is a deviation from a norm where it's like,
even if you don't respect your teacher, it's just like
you're making waves. Can you just calm the f down,
like just really step back. And they would have said
calmed the f down. They wouldn't, And the way that

(11:22):
Conal's friends teased Marianne was very much like, oh, they
also think she's hot and they want to have sex
with her, but they resent her because she doesn't. She
isn't interested in them. That at one point he says like,
if he thought he had a chance with you, he
wouldn't say those things. Yeah, yeah, that's fully it. So

(11:43):
I think, like, yeah, the TV show, for however, it's portrayed.
You know, she is very conventionally attractive. But I do
think the book never tries to make the case that
Marianne isn't beautiful. She just doesn't subscribe to like the
high school conventions. She doesn't want makeup of course, so
you know, you know all she needs to just take
off her glasses and let her ponytail down and we

(12:04):
have a prop queen in her hands, or she's Superman,
either way one or the other. This is Popcorn Book
Club for My Heart Radio. Just gonna take a quick break.
We'll be right back. Okay, we're back with Popcorn Book Club. Uh, Tian,

(12:28):
do you want to take the next step? Sort of
the plot? We have the two players, so we have
where did we leave off plot wise? Literally, she does
not wear makeup? We have mary Han did she she
doesn't wear makeup? Did we talk about the fact that
Conal's mother is the housekeeper for mary Anne's family. So

(12:48):
you're setting up this like class divide. Uh? And they
start secretly Conal and mary Anne starts secretly sleeping with
each other, and Conal kind of is too embarrassed to
admit that this is happening and makes her keep it
a secret. And she is so happy to obey and
like be dominated in that moment to keep it a secret. Yeah,

(13:11):
so that is their high school dynamic. And I think
that's sort of like the first section of the book,
which is marian genuinely being attracted and loving and adoring
Connel in this way. He's sort of presented us like
he's good at sports, he's popular, he's well liked. Um,
and Uh, they have this sort of secret intimacy that's

(13:32):
more honest than any other relationship we sort of see
even among his friends. Jen, what did you make of
of Marianne and Connell in high school? Well, Uh, Connell
does not take her to debbs, which I had to
google is like the Irish equivalent of taking someone to prom.
He takes another girl to prom despite the fact that

(13:53):
he's sleeping with Marianne and like corother mean is girl
the worst mean girl? Yes? And then at Debs found
out that nobody really would have cared if he had
taken Maryanne. They could have been walking around holding hands
in school the whole time and nobody would have really

(14:16):
given it a second thought. And anyhow, that was the
point at which I decided that I hated Conal. And
in Connell's defense, at this point, uh, everyone in high
school is mean and dumb. Oh yeah, but it's your
last mental high school. You're never going to see those
people again, Like there's ever a time to just say
it's then you can take anybody you want to prob Um. Yeah,

(14:40):
you're going away to college in Dublin. You're not going
to keep hanging out with the same people you hung
out with in high school. For me, the most gutting
part of the Deb's conflict, which I think we should
definitely talk more about, is when she's like, did you
consider taking me to Deb's And he's like no, and
he's like I wish I had, which just I mean
that honesty is important, but this idea that it was

(15:02):
just out of the realm of even possibilities that he
would not subscribe to, like the normal progression of like
what was supposed to happen, which is the popular guy
goes with the popular girl to the dance, Like, but
he wasn't even creative enough to even contemplate in his
wildest fantasies to publicly go on a date with the

(15:22):
girl that he is sleeping with, Like I'm not at
go into fantasies a bit, turning into like carries prom night,
like the worst possible version of the possible. But he
didn't even think about that. It was like you told
him to eat paper. He was like, no, that's not
what you do, Like, I don't understand that, Melissa, what's
your take? Well, I was gonna say not to get

(15:43):
too far ahead, but that moment feel like when he says,
I didn't consider it, but I wish I had feel
so emblematic of all the chapters of their relationship, like
when he gets another, when he gets he gets a
girlfriend and that like breaks her heart and she's in love.
He says he's in love with her, and and at
the end like he's never at any point considers her,

(16:05):
considers that they could be in a real relationship. Like
from Deb's onward, each chapter it felt like he never
even considered it. He just takes this relationship for granted,
even even if he doesn't mean to. And it's like,
it's heartbreaking. It's just a dynamic that they're in that
they can't get out of. The thing that destroys me
is that Marianne keeps going along with it. And I

(16:28):
think that's because her home life is a terribly abusive
home life. But with the exception of not talking to
him after Debs for a little while, she keeps letting
him continue to do this to her over and over
throughout the book. And at any point he could just
decide to treat this woman he keeps sleeping with nicely.

(16:49):
He could just decide that she's a real person who
has real feelings. It shouldn't be that hard. The real tragedy,
and I think it's something a lot of women have
dealt with, and that's maybe why it's resonated. This book
has resonated so much with so many people about relationships.
Is like kindness in chunks, you you can you like gather,

(17:10):
you can hoard it like nuts, and then you can
dole it out through the winter. So if someone is
kind to you in moments of intimacy, and you're like,
they're kind to me, they love me, and then even
if publicly they're cruel to you or they're cruel to
you in terms of their behavior, in terms of like,
you know, the relationship itself, you can still keep going
back to those moments of kindness. It's like your first

(17:31):
it's like her first real you know, intimate relationship with someone,
like you really even hold onto that even more because
you're not comparing it to anything else. You have no
other kind of standard if you're like getting any sort
of kindness or like, so, because I remember in my
first love that like I would look at bad behavior

(17:52):
as just like, oh, just a blip in the like
overall arc of our relationship, not seeing that it was
like a terrible pattern to neck it could be better.
Like That's why I think she keeps going back because
like model, you have a model and he's her very
first kiss. Also, Melissa, I think that's important her family.

(18:14):
Do you have feelings sort of about how her family
affects her relationship with Connor? The family was so awful.
I mean, that relationship without with her brother Alan was
just like one of the most stressful things I've read
in a long time, because it's the kind of abuse
that is like, it's like that I'm not touching you

(18:35):
kind of abuse. It's like, just like, even though it
does become escalate to physical, he still never like lays
a hand on her. He throws a beer bottle in
her direction, He like punches the door open, Like it's
interesting to me that, like his fist never hits her face.
But it's still so horrifically abusive. And because of that,

(18:56):
she like doesn't feel like she deserves sympathy, you know,
Like I think because she has money, she feels like
she doesn't deserve sympathy or you know, any kind of kindness.
And her mother being so detached from it and forgiving
of Alan, it just feels like her self worth, she

(19:17):
didn't have a chance and her only The sad thing
is it's like the only way she could have a
chance is either with a good friend or a good
romantic partner. And the closest thing she ever got with Connell.
I do like that she has a good friend in college.
Shout out to good Leslian relationship. I want to say,

(19:42):
if we are allowed to swear on this on this podcast,
or if it's like a PG thirteen and we get
one F word, I'm gonna I'm gonna say fuck Alan. Yeah,
I'm gonna use it. Oh my god, that is also
Funck Jamie, we are now rare. Yeah, Peggy too, but

(20:04):
yeah is the worst he is literally. Know, What's what's
very insidious about Peggy's character is that she sort of
positions herself as this like women's advocate and as this
friend and in her person and she just is zero

(20:26):
percent of those things at the time. Yeah, yeah, you know.
I think that actually sort of gets into a meta
discussion that I really wanted to have. Um, I will
jump back in the plot because I think, you know,
this transition from high school to college is very important.
But in a meta world, Santally Rooney books have sort

(20:47):
of become a feminist status symbol sort of in the
sense that I feel like her books in terms of
an esthetic and who they're popular with, are so of
like the New York or tote bag of literature at
the moment. Do you think that is in line with
what the book is about or do you think people

(21:07):
are projecting on it or am I totally off base? No?
I think you're I think there is actually a met
a meta thing at the very end of the book
that I highlighted that was exactly that. Because this is
her second book, right, Yeah, so it says it was
cultures class performance literature fetishized for its ability to take

(21:30):
educated people on false emotional journey so that they might
afterwards feel superior to the uneducated people whose emotional journeys
they like to read about. All books ultimately or marketed
as status symbols, and all writers participated to some degree
in this marketing. Obviously. I don't think she thinks her
books are you know, empty or like the first paragraph,

(21:52):
but it is interesting that she talks about them being
status symbols because her first book was sort of that
status of But like you're saying, like there, I saw
them on Instagram before I heard what they were about.
You know, do you think Sally Roney wrote that paragraph
because she is aware of that in terms of her
own book, or is she just does she just have

(22:14):
that feeling? I like to think aware, felt very self aware.
I feel like it's some from column A some from
column B, and to me, that reads a somebody who
wants to escape that, but also is aware that their
structures in place that make it very difficult to be
successful and still escape that. I mean, there are benefits.

(22:37):
It's a obviously, it's a very privileged position. Sally Rooney
as she isn't a She is a conventionally attractive, young
white woman writing about young conventionally attractive white people falling
in love like she, and she has skyrocketed to enormous success,
so she she still has critical success and commercial sense,

(23:00):
which yes, yes, it's not like a Nora Robert's book,
which I think fits into the same category of she
is writing about romances between conventionally attractive people, perhaps with
a beautiful backdrop of Ireland, but um, those relationships and
with people getting married or kissing on a beach, and
therefore they are very different than the relationships and Sally

(23:22):
Rooney is talking about. Sally Rooney is in a very
rare and exalted position, and I it's yeah, this is
this is the big question of literary theory is is
it is it an interesting question or even one worth
having to read the book through that lens? Or should
we just read the text as a text. I mean,

(23:44):
I don't think text exists just as text. That's the thing.
I mean, everything is text. The world that we live
in is text, and you have to sort of take
that as part of it when you are examining and
analyzing it. Well, yeah, because it is interesting reading the
book a second time. And then I was watching I

(24:05):
watched the first half of the series, and my understanding
of Connell felt different each time I read it, and
also um watching the show, I felt way more sympathetic
towards Connell, and I realized that it's like, oh, I
am projecting my own relationships and passed onto the Connals

(24:29):
that I've encountered. And so then when he was this living,
breathing other person that was also like very handsome, it
was like, oh, I could fix him. And with an
Irish accent. I read the whole book in an Irish accent.
I would read portions of it out loud to myself
in my in my room at my mom's house. And

(24:53):
can you do an Irish accent? No. I sounded like
a cross between a dairy girl and the like Lucky
Charms Lepreca. It was heretious, it was truly awful, but
it did make the Irish accents less disarming. When I
was watching Melissa, when you were talking about projecting, that
hit me in the chest because I read Sally Rooney's
first book, which is about a girl in college, you know,

(25:16):
getting in a relationship with a slightly older man, and um,
that one. I feel like I projected a ton on
and uh and I feel and looking back, I was like, Oh,
I like that one better. And I was like, oh,
did I like that one better? Just because I personally
put more into it compared to like I didn't have
like an extended high school romance. So here is my theory,

(25:39):
and take it as you will, and I'm putting it
out for the discussion. I sort of think with Sally
Rooney's writing style, which is very sparse but the details
are really vivid, um that she is the literary equivalent.
And I say this as both a fan of Taylor
Swift and a fan of Sally Reiney genuinely sort of

(26:00):
the literary equivalent of Taylor Swift songs, which Taylor Swift
songs I think account for their success and longevity because
the details are specific, but you can imagine whatever your
relationship is upon the song like yeah, like I feel
like because Sally Rooney right, and that really sparse like

(26:21):
no quotation mark style, and you know the scenes are
are um like scalpel, precise scalpel, yeah, precise. Um. People
can can fill it in with their own heartbreaks. I
would agree with that, And I think that it's very

(26:43):
important to say that I like Taylor Swift despite all
of my efforts not to. I enjoy her music a lot,
and I do think that it does speak to something
inside of all of us where it's like, oh, yeah,
this is this could be me, even if it isn't.
You know. I feel like I go through relationships where
like every phase of the relationship will have a Taylor song,

(27:06):
Taylor Swift song that I will project on that period
of the relationship. Oh absolutely. I once texted a guy
that I was like, I can't do this anymore because
this is starting to feel like a Taylor Swift song
and I needed to stop. It was specifically starting to
feel like Style from her album, and I did not
like that. When they start to feel like Style, you
gotta you, gotta pull the eggs in, gotta bounce, got

(27:29):
a bound. I mean, did you feel like your enjoyment
of this book hinged on personal experience. Jennifer Oh, I mean,
I think, yeah, I think it's a really easy book
to project yourself into, especially if you have ever had
a dysfunctional relationship in your early twenties. And I think
a lot of women have been in a place where you, yeah,

(27:53):
where you think, well, you know, he's really nice to
me sometimes. So maybe if I just ask for nothing
emotionally for the entirety of this relationship, everything will work
Oude And one of the things that I did find
I disliked a little bit about the ending of this
book was it seemed to confirm this notion that if

(28:15):
you ask for nothing emotionally for five years, eventually the
man you're sleeping with will threatened to beat up your
abusive brother, which, frankly, I feel like if you had
a broken nose and you went out to any bar
anywhere in America, and by the way, you're also you're
beautiful in this situation. You're a beautiful young woman and

(28:37):
you're weeping, and you say, my abusive brother broke my nose.
Every man in that bar would run to that house
to beat up your brother, because it is finally an
opportunity for a man to beat someone up and still
be a good guy. That is so smart and also
a perfect transition to another question I had for the group.

(29:00):
Sally Rooney describes herself as a Marxist, and I thought
it was kind of interesting to Karaen was making a
face which we'll get to, but I did think it
was sort of interesting too. Then re examine the book
through a Marxist lens in terms of I saw people
on Twitter talking about like, oh, is it feminists that

(29:20):
you know Connell is always standing up for her and
you know, beating beating up you know, her brother, and
and you know, defending her at school and against you know,
people who were a physical threat to her. And I
was thinking that, like from a Marxist perspective, which is
the idea that people have different ability, skills and resources
to share with other people, that this book is secretly

(29:42):
sort of advocating for that, where what Marianne has is
like wealth and status at certain points of her life,
like when he needed a place to stay for the
summer and didn't have a place to stay, It's like,
wouldn't it be better if she shared that resource with him?
And then what he has is physical strength and that
I know you're gonna get there, and that she has

(30:04):
this physical strength, and it's like, oh, well, you know
she sometimes needs a physical barrier. And uh so that
was just a thing that I was teasing out the
idea of, like, Okay, well, if she's calling herself a
Marxist publicly, is that something that we think exists in
the book? Karama to explain the face, I well, the
face was just that I didn't know that and that
was surprising information to me. But it just to address

(30:27):
specifically what you brought up about. Marianne has this home
that her grandmother owns in Dublin, so she's not in
campus housing or anything like that. She's not paying rent
to our knowledge, and Connall has lost his job over
the summer and wants to stay in Dublin but can't
unless he has a place to stay where he doesn't
have to pay rent. He doesn't ask her, And this

(30:50):
is part of the major issue for me in this
relationship in this book, is that they are always talking
across from each other, like not they're not talking to
each other, talking past each other and seeing it on
film because I know, I said in our email threat
that I wasn't going to watch the Hulu show, but
I watched the entire It was very engaging. Good job Hulu, uh,

(31:17):
and good job actors also, you did great. But I
found that seeing it on screen was so much more
Inferiah and seeing it from their different perspectives too, and
seeing what they're reading into the conversation as opposed to
what it's like the connotation versus the denotation, and it's

(31:38):
like you need to just pay attention to what the
other person is saying and then ask wow up questions. Genuinely,
I think they all needed therapy, and it was not
introduced as a concept in this book until very late
in the game, too late and someone for it to happen.
It's almost like a little bit pride and prejudice in
the sense to like if the characters could communicate their

(31:59):
misunderstand things and say what they're feeling, like a good
long conversation could work it out. But because of who
the characters fundamentally are as people, they can't have those
conversations because they are fundamentally people who will not have
conversations like that. It's also like a multicam sitcom like
that's the premise of most jokes in sitcoms. Are like

(32:20):
two people talking about different things and they think, like,
I thought we were talking about grocery shopping, but I'm
talking about how I want to have sex with you,
and it's like, well that eggs means something different. I
also have a theory that in the Boy is Mine,
the song by Brandy and Monica, they're not talking about
the same boy because they never say his name. You

(32:43):
know his name? Oh yeah, I know his name. And
if they just said one to three and then said
the name at the same time, it probably would have
been a different guy. And they also have moved on
and been friends with each other. Dan, what is your
feeling on the Marxist interpretation of resources and and or
asking for resources? Well, in looking in reading this book
and looking up things about it, yeah, I think someone

(33:05):
had interpreted that like it was like Marxism into the
heart right. It's like everyone is have Connal and Marianne
each have their resources that they can contribute to like
the nation state of this relation, and that like in
working together they could come to like a successful country

(33:26):
of a relationship if they were just to be able
to like balance the resources of wealth and emotional i
Q and like their intelligence into their relationships. So that's
that I do see where people are pulling that and
putting that, projecting her being like a self identified Marxist
like into this into this book. Yeah. I think Also

(33:50):
one place where I really noticed it was when they
get the scholarships. It was such an indictment of Marianne's
like class privilege that she didn't understand why she didn't
deserve one too, and she really saw it as the
status symbol for her intelligence, right, and then one of

(34:12):
her friends didn't get it, and it was like, oh,
I'm sad they didn't get it, and Conall's like they
didn't need it. It's like, well it would have been good,
you know, for for her like self confidence, and it's
like no, Conall literally needs it so he can still
go to school there. And then talking about like the
kids that are serving them this food that are the
same kids, same students. That's where I felt like it

(34:36):
was a lot was examined and that was all lost
in the show. I don't want to say lost in
the show. It's a different medium and there are certain
things that just aren't going to translate well. On screen.
And that's one of the beauties of having these different
options available to us is that we get this rich
inner life and this inner thought process when we're reading
the book. And I did miss that in watching the show.

(34:59):
And I'm missed their email exchange in watching the show
because when she was abroad in um Sweden, Sweden, when
she was abroad in Sweden, and they had this like
long email exchange that really spoke to me and my
personal experience. They tie out him calling her a deer.

(35:22):
I like, when a deer. It was cute. I will
say one thing that I got from the show that
I didn't like necessarily pick up on in the book
is like, maybe it's a little on the nose, but
the idea that she's sort of emotionally shutting down and
then she goes to Sweden, which is a very cold
and sparse Scandinavian place, and I think that that is

(35:43):
something conveyed very visually um well in the show, to
mirror your outside and your inside. Also, something that the
show gave me that the book did not is how
hot they are there and they have chemistry, they have
physical chemistry. Then in him holy shit. One another thing

(36:05):
because I was reading like a few interviews with Sally Rooney,
because I do think like she is an interesting person
because she's become such like a cultural figure, and the
interview she said, I'm just I'm gonna read this quote
because it's something that I've I've written books, and obviously
not anything compared to the critical acclaim or commercial success

(36:26):
of Sally Rooney, but I just I want to feel
how this feels in my mouth to say it. Um,
A lot of critics have noticed that my books are
basically nineteenth century novels but dressed up in contemporary clothing,
which is a good that would be very nice for
critics to say, Um, I don't. I don't know if
I felt that. To me, it feels very modern. I

(36:50):
can definitely see that because I've always thought there is
something very mercenary about Jane Austen's novels. They're not really love.
They're really about social class, and they're who you marry
and how that impacts you financially. And I think, um,
I did not know she was a self identified Marxist,
but I think if there is any barrier to their relationship,

(37:13):
and again, I do not think it is that much
of a barrier for these very attractive young white people
who are going to the same college. Um, it is
a social class in this novel, But isn't interesting because
in high school he doesn't want to publicly be seen
with her and he's the one who has the social

(37:34):
class that one could then like argue would benefit from
being created with her. But isn't it. I mean, I
think the social class issue because this isn't the nineteenth
century where it's like her being rich doesn't wouldn't affect
them actually being a couple. That is never like an
obstacle to them being a couple, Isn't it? To me?

(37:55):
What felt very pride and prejudice was the idea that like,
these are two very ideful people or have personal limitations
that prevent them from having the conversation they need to have. Yeah,
they're not speaking their emotional truths. And I feel like
that is kind of what it is in Jane Alison novels,
Like they're speaking around me and they never get to

(38:17):
it until like the very end. Um But I I
do think it is a barrier like it it felt
like the biggest like the class both in high school,
with Connell being having the higher social class, and then
in college, you know, they still it was still kind
of a secret and it yes, people wouldn't have cared

(38:41):
about it, but it is still built up in their
heads and some way care actually because there are people
who comment on him and they're like, oh, is he
even smart, which was just like very yes. His accent.
That's that's the thing that I feel like takes where
class really comes into focus, is that he's from like
the boonies of Ireland. That he has like an accent

(39:03):
and clothing that identify him as the clothing not so much.
On the show, he was very well dressed and yeah, yeah,
you're listening to popcorn book clip from My Heart Radio.
We're just going to take a quick break. I won't
be right back, so we're back with popcorn book clip

(39:30):
for my Heart Radio. I think this is a good
This is a good transition. Now back into slightly the
plot where we're at. We're taking roundabout ways, which is
how conversation should go. I think, um, Melissa, do you
want to pick up post debs? He did, He didn't
ask her to Deb's. Lorraine rightfully got mad at him
and we did sort of skip that and I want

(39:52):
to right about and she's like, I need to get
out of the car otherwise I'm want to say things
I were grats give us. So the other important part
of when he doesn't invite her to the debs is
she drops out of school, so she I mean, she graduates,

(40:14):
but she does it from home. So it was like
the final straw. She couldn't be in that school anymore.
And and he Conall kept on trying to get in
touch with her, and she would not respond. Also, Conad
would not apologize because he's an idiot. Um. And then
we follow Connall the next fall at school at first

(40:35):
and he's having a hard time fitting in. He's going
home every weekend because he doesn't have any friends yet.
And he gets invited to one party and by this
guy Gareth Garrett or Gareth, and he's like kind of
a cool guy on campus. Everybody knows he sucks. He's brilliant,

(40:57):
kind of a pretentious nineties bore. Yeah, I think kind
of sucks. He was a Nazi apologist, so yeah, he sucks.
Um and he gets she gets the party. Gareth is like,
you should come in my girlfriend. She's all she's also

(41:19):
from Sligo. And then Lo and behold, it's Marianne. And
Marianne has her college glow up, the thing every nerdy
girl in high school always dreamed of having. Um. This
is the fantasy moment for all of us. She cuts
her hair I think a little shorter and wears eyeliner,
so that's the big glow up. And she's very happy
to see him. She's been and she now has friends.

(41:41):
She's the popular one, she has the cool boyfriend. She's
surrounded by friends or paying attention to her. Very cool.
She smokes. Now she's a bad girl and she's Sandy
at the end of yes. And they start chatting and
she invites him into her friend circle, like maybe they

(42:01):
can just be friends, and so that happens for a while,
and then she realizes she really wants to have sex
with him again, and so she breaks up with Gareth
boring Nazi apologist Gareth, and uh they start having secret
sex again, but this time it's kind of her secret
rather than his secret. But then the devastating thing is

(42:24):
when she when he asked, like to do any of
your friends know, and she's like no. It's like, are
you embarrassed? And she's like, yeah, I'm embarrassed. Of and
ashamed of how you treated me and that I took it. Yeah, Um,
is that if I keep going? Or is that? I
think that's that's funny to discuss Jennifer a lot. Jennifer,

(42:45):
what is your what is your feeling there? I mean, look,
he also still won't touch her in public, like, he
refuses to do any kind of public displace of affection
with her, um, even though she is clearly more popular
than him in college at this point and doing very well. Um.

(43:05):
I think he still sees her the way he saw
her when she was in high school. And I think
the tragedy is that she still sees herself that way
as well. That um, for this entire book, she will
still see herself as someone who is considered like an
ugly girl and who maybe doesn't does her love because
her family, if I expressed love at all, expressed it

(43:26):
in terrible ways, Like I don't recall any portion of
the book where I see anything that is recognizable to
me as a fetchan coming from any member of her family.
So yeah, maybe she gravitates back towards him in part
because he still sees her the way she sees herself.
And I think that the family thing is really spot

(43:49):
on because her mom is so cold and cruel to
her and ignores the abuse of her brother. And the
fact that it did feel like in those quiet moments
of intimacy that Connell did see her, you know, in
those isolated moments of when they were together, and that
probably was the closest she felt to being seen in
her childhood or you know, young adulthood. That it then

(44:13):
then is tied to this feeling of genuine shame where
it's like the best she could hope for was conditional
affection from this person who was ashamed to be with
her in public, which is a really painful thing. Correct.
I feel like this is another plug for therapy because
the touch, well know, the physical touch thing actually really
stood out to me because I am familiar with I'm

(44:37):
not saying I like I am big on them, but
the love languages, the five love languages, one of which
is physical touch, and when people are in relationships sometimes
their love languages are different. And it felt like mary
Anne was like a big why don't you touch me? Person,
He's just like, oh, I don't know. And I feel
like if they had a conversation, perhaps with a therapist,

(45:00):
then they could really tease out why that was an issue.
And I read something somewhere I cannot set my source,
I'm so sorry, but I read something that said the
love languages that we crave are the ones that we
didn't get from our families as we were growing up.
So I think it's really interesting that physical touches one
for Marianne, and that becomes a big point in their

(45:23):
relationship because even as um I think Melissa was saying,
even as she's being abused by her family, she's not
being touched. Yeah, it's a coldness. It's like a shut
off abuse. Yeah. Well it also feels at one point
it's not touching. Okay, it's but it's not touching. It

(45:49):
also felt so egregious the the lack of Connall's physical
touch in terms in public, Like I it felt like
any human would be in a relationship would be upset,
like they didn't like want to hold hands ever, or
like touch, like that that moment in the pool when

(46:10):
he like touches her legs and it's like she's so
starved for it and it makes me so sad. But
it also felt like to your therapy point is like
Connell's sense of their intimacy is so wrapped up in
shame of like he was always so ashamed by his
attraction to her and felt like it was perverse in

(46:33):
high school, and then it's like the secret, and so
it feels like any kind of sharing of that intimacy
in public and through touch would be is too shameful
to there's so much shame surrounding it. Again, therapy would
help that. I also see that as like just him

(46:54):
being very like emotionally manipulative, Like even though he's so shamed,
I think he deeply knows like how wrong he was
to have like made her keep it a secret in
high school and the fact that he really never gets
to he does at some point apologize, but it's not
till like she has already started sleeping with him again

(47:17):
in college and they've like kind of gotten back into
their old ways of having sex and not being like
affectionate in public. But two, if he really knows her
and sees her the way that he himself convinces himself
that he sees her, she would know. He would know
that she would like want that sort of physical touch,
and I want that sort of affection and to like

(47:40):
withhold it and be weird about it is like emotionally manipulative.
I will say that type of validation is something that
I feel like I have dealt with in relationships were
like I just keep coming back to my last big relationship.
A massive fight for us was that I wanted to
post pictures of online and he wouldn't let me. Um,

(48:04):
which you know, He's like, I'm a very private person,
and I get that, but I, if you know anything
about me, like sort of lived my life a little publicly,
like obviously not a full version of myself, like a
facade of me, and so it felt very important for me,
like it wasn't real until it was like on the internet,
which is my own twisted, distorted brain. That's not how
the world works. But like that was a legitimate argument

(48:25):
we had where he's like, but I'm here, I'm holding
your hand. I've met your friend like you've met my friends,
and I'm like, yeah, but why you know, it felt
secret if it wasn't on the internet, which is different
obviously from Marianne's physical touch, but uh, look at me
projecting on it. Yeah. Well, I mean I think everybody
ideally wants to be with someone who is proud to

(48:48):
be with them and happy to be with them. And I, UM,
I love showing off pictures of me and my husband because, um,
I'm proud of him, and I think we look cute
together and I love him, UM, And I think he
feels the same way about me. He probably posts many
more pictures of me than I post of him. I
will say, I will say Daniel knows he shot above

(49:11):
his weight class on that one. It's very smart to
brag about being married. Do you a very beautiful woman?
He is the most beautiful creature in the world to me. Um,
I love him so much. And Daniel podcast, can Sally
or Andy just write about you guys relationship? Okay? That's um.

(49:35):
I think you know, I am in a very happy relationship.
And that was something that I thought about a lot
in this book. And I wish she had had a
better friend, because I feel like if she had had
like maybe a slightly older friend or a friend who'd
been like a good relationship for a long time. You
can kind of gently hold someone's hand and saying it

(49:58):
seems strange that he never wants to touch you in public,
and it's okay that you feel weird about that. Like
that is that's unusual. UM say, I will say Joanna,
I feel like was her best friend throughout the show,
not in terms of like, oh my god, bff, but
just in terms of quality. She was the best friend.

(50:19):
And I think that Joanna kind of handled it correctly
in terms of like gently supporting but clearly not like
very pro the negative relationships in her life, because there
is the sort of tendency when you call out somebody's
toxic relationship or negative relationship that they will push you
away because they're so invested in the relationship. And Joanna

(50:42):
was there to continue to gently nudge her and say like, hey,
you know, Sweden, this guy Lucas, and Sweden's a bit
just be careful, okay, have a good time. You know.
Lucas is an interesting transition to something else I wanted
to talk about, which is um the world of b
DSM a little bit um And one thing that I
was interested in the dynamic of is one thing that

(51:05):
I've uh noticed as a not someone who's in that community,
but someone who has you know, gotten a normal social
thing is it seems like those dynamics, like a domination
or submission dynamic, happens in during sex in the bedroom
in these clearly uh constrained environments and rules, and then

(51:28):
when it's over, you're back to being very affectionate and
loving and give each other after care, after care, after
It's very important not seeing that in any of this.
That's what I was saying, where it's like, I in theory,
I understood why Marian would gravitate towards that world where
you can play and explore those dynamics in a safe

(51:48):
space and then afterward be with a loving, caring partner. Um.
But that is sort of the opposite of things we get,
which is someone who is very cold and very cruel
to her in the world and outside and then only
shows any intimacy or tenderness during sex of course, So

(52:09):
it's like, is like a weird bizarro version of a
b DSM relationship. I just I just would say that
I don't particularly love that sort of stereotype or trope
that someone like damaged woman or someone who has damaged
or abused turns to b d s M as a
way to fill a void, because I don't think you

(52:29):
necessarily play out in that like that kink doesn't come
out of like neurosis all the time. It can come
from just like wanting to like have that sexual liberation
and playing with power dynamics in a different way. So
I found that to be a little kind of disappointing
to see that that is how this particular community or

(52:49):
kink community is being portrayed again as like some iconic
line and I love it. Sorry interrupting, I had to
deliver that lie. No, but yeah, I just found that

(53:10):
to be like wishing there was more nuance in that
self discovery that she is exploring this kink and like
into in the world of d s M and like
losing having it be placed on the fact that she was,
you know, looking to it because she had abusive relationship
relationships at home felt like a missed opportunity and I

(53:32):
will exploration of it. I think that they really could
have portrayed it with more nuance and with a version
of aftercare, which seems like the version of Lucas that
I kind of wanted, Like Lucas did seem to to
care for her and I and Lucas seemed very experienced
in this world. He sort of had the paraphernalia and
I didn't get that at all from him. I wish

(53:54):
that Lucas had been uh, the sort of then mirror
opposite of And it was also interesting that like she
shied away and pulled away when he was like, you know,
I love you, or he said something tender and that
was what got her, And it was kind of like
you're saying to him, like kind of disappointing that you
there could have been an opportunity there to see how

(54:18):
someone was different outside of the rules in which UM
in the sexual sort of space. Yeah, Jennifer, what was
your UM? I do not think anything about this book
or show is an advertisement for how things are supposed
to work. Yeah, I do not think a relationship. I

(54:38):
do not think it is a good depiction of how
good b DSM roleplay would go. But I also think
it's really important that in I don't think this is
her kick UM in the book, when she first starts
talking about how like I let him tie me up, UM,
I think it's Connal who asked her do you like him?
And she's like, I don't know. Maybe, UM. It doesn't

(55:00):
feel like, oh, this is a side of my sexuality
that I've been really into and it really gets me off,
and I want to explore that it feels like the
only experience of love she has is to feel submissive
to another person's will and to go along with what
somebody else wants her to do, and that's what she's
head was connal, and she's trying to figure out how

(55:21):
to get that feeling back in her other relationships when
she doesn't feel so in love with these people that
she'll do whatever they want her to. And maybe a
way for her to capture that again is to be
physically tied up and to have to submit to them. Yeah. Well,
there is so much talk in the book of Connell's

(55:41):
power over her, and I mean, over and over and
over again, how he's so repulsed by the power he
has over her and overwhelmed by it and needs it,
and towards the end he talks about how like that
is all he wants, is like he doesn't even care
about his own life, but he cares about his effect

(56:02):
on mary Anne. And it is this sort of emotional
control that you're right, that she's like searching for. And
you know, one thing I noticed in the book that
I feel like a lot of young women can relate
to our young people, is like I understand why she

(56:23):
keeps going back to Connal because all of the other
men are worse that she dates. You know, we keep
talking about this model of like she tries this relationhip Connall,
Connad breaks her heart, she dates Gareth, who's a boring
Nazi apologist, and then she's like, Okay, I want to
go back to Connal, and then Jamie and then the
Swedish guy. It's like it's all in comparison, and so

(56:47):
you understand why she again and again returns to this
better than those relationships relationship. That is a really interesting
dynamic between Connal and Marianne. That it is even if
they're not engaged in B D S M sex, which
they're not. You know what, she brings it up and
he's not into that and he balks. He has genuine

(57:09):
power over her both. He has physical strength. He could
dominate her physically. He's the one who could protect her physically,
and he has the emotional power. Because she loves him
so much, she would do anything he wants. She I mean,
would humiliate herself and that she you know knows that
based on her behavior in high school. She can look

(57:29):
back on that and be like, wow, I I was
willing to do this for that guy, Karama, what was
your what was your thought on that? I? Um, well,
m hmm. I didn't love the continued um return so
to speak to the talk about power and his power

(57:50):
over her, and it just kind of if, I mean,
it didn't feel good. It felt like it was a
bad thing, and everybody kept talking about it kind of
like it was a good thing. I don't know, like
when I feel like Maryanne would talk about it like,
you know, I do anything you want me to, and
I'm like, don't tell him that's like, yeah, some of

(58:13):
your cards, girl, it's not good. No, it's not good.
And I'm like, you're a human being, You're not a sim.
Like he doesn't get to control you should be if
you were, if you were the good friend, you would
need to tell her that she's a human being, not
a sim. Don't flout in the pool. If he could
delete the climb ramp, you'll drown. Oh my gosh, that's

(58:36):
super fun to do that to sim's I'm a psychopath.
It's fine. But what I did. I wanted to loop
back and talk about Lucas again really quickly, because I
feel like Lucas was the biggest change in the book
for the show for me. Uh, And I've talked about
things that I felt like I missed from the book
that we're not in the show or couldn't translate properly

(58:56):
into the show. But I feel like Lucas as a
character was the biggest deviation, so to speak, a deviation
from the book, because not just because they changed his race,
which I was fine with because there are Scandinavians of
color and I thought that was lovely that they did
that and address that, but also the fact that in

(59:17):
the book it's not it's not a loving, sort of
kind relationship, and then she tries to break up with
him and then he's like, oh, okay, if you want
me to be mean to you, I can be mean
to you. It's actually it sort of starts cold, and
then when he begins to warm up, that's when she
freaks out. So it's not like it was an agreed
upon coldness like it is in the show. And there's

(59:40):
just something really interesting about that decision to make it
mary Anne's agency to make this relationship cold as opposed
to seeking somebody out who sees in her that she
wants that, instead of her explicitly expressing it, and she
didn't explicitly express much throughout the show in terms of
being in relationships, and I found it interesting that they

(01:00:03):
made Lucas the one character where she actually actively did that.
I think it goes into what Jennifer said really articulately,
this idea that Connal had that power over her and
she was trying to seek ways of replicating that with
people that she didn't have that organic, natural feel with,

(01:00:24):
you know what I mean, Like she needed a physical
she needs physical hand restraints with Lucas in a way
that she wouldn't with Conna, right, But she does try
to get that with Connal at a certain point, which
was a very heart wrenching scene for me watching it.
It was so much worse watching it than reading it.

(01:00:48):
That's our show for the week. Thank you so much
for listening. I'm Danish Schwartz and you can find me
on Twitter at Danis Schwartz with three z's. You can
follow Jennifer Wright at Jen Ashley Right, Ramadannqua is at
Karama Drama, Melissa Hunter is at Melissa f tw and
Tan Tran is smart enough to have gotten off Twitter,
but she is on Insta at Hank Tina, our executive

(01:01:10):
producer is Christopher Hasiota's and we're produced and edited by
Mike John's. Special thanks to David Wasserman and of course
to Sally Rooney for giving us the story to begin with.
Next week, we'll pick up right where we left off
with normal people and things are really heating up. I
just wanted to know what you guys thought about that
for those of you who watched the show and got
to the naky parts. At the risk of sounding like

(01:01:33):
the creepiest pervert and the entire world, I'm so excited.
Here we go. Popcorn Book Club is a production of
I Heart Radio.
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