October 16, 2025 • 40 mins
Entertainment has always moved culture—but what happens when brands step in as co-creators? Michael Sugar, the Academy Award-winning producer behind Spotlight and founder of Sugar23, joins Christian to discuss his new partnership with the Ad Council, why mental health is at the center of his storytelling agenda, and how great content can bridge purpose and profit while inspiring cultural shifts
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Welcome to Possible Now Stories of Possibilities, the podcast where
we dive into the leadership frameworks, bold ideas and personal
stories shaping the future of marketing, technology and leadership. There's
the reason the best films stay with us long after
the credits role. They don't just entertain, They shift culture,
(00:26):
They change conversations, and they make us see the world differently.
That's the power of storytelling, and it's also where the
future of marketing, media, advertising and culture is heavy. I'm
Christie Much and this is Possible Now Stories of Possibilities,
the podcast where we explore bold ideas and the leaders
reshaping business, creativity and technology. And today I have the
(00:51):
honor of welcoming someone who embodies that vision. Michael Sugar
is an Academy Award winning producer of Spotlight. He's brought
us acclaimed series like the Netflix hit Thirteen Reasons Why,
the Nick, Collateral, Beauty, and Maniac, and through his company
Sugar twenty three, he's building a creative powerhouse that expands
(01:14):
far beyond Hollywood into publishing, podcasting, digital and now brand
storytelling at the very highest level. Michael is more than
a producer. He's a cultural architect, a visionary who's blurring
the line between entertainment and marketing, between art and commerce,
between purpose and profit. He has been nominated for multiple
(01:36):
Emmys and Golden Globes, has received two Television Academy Honor
and so many more, and today we get to step
into his world. Welcome Michael Sugar.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Thank you for having me. I appreciate that introduction. I'm
really excited.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
To talk Michael. Before we dive really into the details
of storytelling. Then and now, please can you tell us
how you ended up up in Hollywood. Give us some
background about the last I don't know ten twenty thirty
years of your activities in Hollywood.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
I've always wanted from as long as I can remember,
to tell stories. My brother and I used to play
studio as kids, and I think this was because I
was so moved by the movies and shows that I
experienced as a child, and so I went to school
always with the same sense of my future, which was
(02:29):
that I was going to make movies. I even went
to law school knowing that I wasn't going to practice law,
and so when I started in Hollywood, I was like
anyone with a dream, just trying to figure out my
way and I think really accidentally fell into talent management
(02:50):
as my entry point. So I started representing writers, directors, actors,
and they were mostly undiscovered people. In fact, at the
beginning they were entirely underscore governed artists, and started making
my way with them. What ended up happening, you know,
maybe twenty years ago, is I saw the opportunity to
start producing. It was always my passion to be on
(03:12):
the set, involved in the creativity, rather than just visiting
an actor or a director who was doing their movie.
And so that sort of second chapter for me was born.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Awesome, that's a great story, Michael. I mean, this is
not the end of the story for show. There many
more to come. But if you're life up to this
point were turned into a film, into a movie not
produced by you but by someone else, what should be
or what could be the title of that movie? Can
you imagine?
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Wow? That's a tough question to answer in real time, Christian,
but I think maybe dream it and build it. That's
a good choice. That's a good choice. That's not a
very good catchy title for a movie. As a producer,
I would strike that title. But I think ostensibly, what
I'm trying to say is I've really always tried to
(04:03):
do things that haven't been done before in the industry
that has lived a certain way for a long time.
So I think that the sort of key moments in
my career and the key transformations were connected to moments
of disruption and the need to change systems that were working.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
So let's talk about storytelling. And because you decided to
expand significantly into a new form of content a while ago,
that is not what we typically think about as branded
content or marketing spend, right, What could you see in
this evolving entertainment and advertising business landscape that not many
others could foresee?
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Well, I think, first of all, I didn't invent this.
There are many others that have been doing this long
before me, so I won't take any credit for that
disruption at all. And what you said was interesting. You
said a new form of content, but I actually think
it's the same form of content. What I'm really trying
to do differently is a new relationship between those that
(05:08):
have paid for that content for decades and the audience
that has consumed that content. Right, So what I'm focused
on is not making shows and movies for brands. I'm
focused on making shows and movies with brands for the
purpose of the brand values, the brand ethos, whatever the
brand is trying to solve for being much more interconnected
(05:32):
to the outcome than has otherwise been offered to them
in the past in the form of pure integration or
renting thirty seconds against someone else's content. So it's not
new content at all that we're trying to create. We're
trying to make the kinds of content audiences are used
(05:53):
to loving and consuming and devouring with passion, and have
the brands be behind them, notably behind them with great attribution,
but not necessarily in them per se. Integration, of course
is important when it's authentic, But what we think is
more important is that the people who love the content
(06:14):
that love the brand for giving it to them, and
it creates a new relationship.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
So the different stages of storytelling and where it is today,
do you think that there's something radically different compared to
the past, or if there's any kind of development you
can see what is the reason behind? Is it the
influence of technology in today's time? Is it audience expectations
or the change of behavior? What could it be?
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Well, the reason I love your conference so much is
because you've brought together worlds that are normally separate, and
they aren't separate. Let's start with technology. Streaming changed Hollywood, right,
we know this to be the case, but it also
changed the relationship between advertisers and the consumer through the
(07:05):
medium that Hollywood has created. So let's start with technology.
There's been a change the disintermediation of advertisers. The move
away from linear television into streaming or at least another
place for an audience to go, has created a friction
for advertisers. That friction has also created problems for the
(07:27):
linear programmers because they're unable to sell the inventory at
the price points they were able to spend before, which
creates a problem for the entertainment industry because the economics
have shrump. And so the way that I look at
where we are, and this is my long way of
answering your short question why now, is that every stakeholder
(07:51):
in this system has been forced to reconcile the change
and adjust. The advertisers need to reach an audience that
is far more fragmented than it's ever been. Hollywood, it's
well reported, is struggling because there's just not as much
(08:12):
opportunity as there was five, ten, fifteen years ago, and
the audiences are so hungry for good content amongst the
noise that what's happened recently, and again I'm not the
person who invented this at all, but what's happened is
that there is a new embrace of this change of
(08:37):
relationship because it solves for every leg of the stool.
And I think that's why we're having success, because advertisers
need a new lane to reach its consumer. Distributors. When
I say distributors, I mean the premium streamers and broadcasters
need help with their content because it's been, as you know,
(09:00):
a cold war and a proliferation of content, and that
becomes expensive. And the audience is still crave what they've
always craved, which is really great content. And so I
think that's why we've landed in this almost perfect storm
of opportunity for brands to enter Hollywood this way.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
So you perfectly described the situation of now. But can
you already see the next level of storytelling or the
next kind of format of storytelling which will break into
the mainstream, which we can't see yet.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
I mean, I don't know that. What I'm working hard
at and my team is working at is going to
change storytelling per se. I think storytelling from the beginning
of time has always been can I tell you something
that captures your attention long enough and moves you deeply
enough to connect to it, right, And that's whether you're
(09:55):
around a campfire or you're behind a television or a
movie screen. That's through line of storytelling. So I don't
think that will ever change, and I don't think that
even changes with the proliferation of AI. I think at
the end of the day, good stories are good stories,
regardless of the medium books, this podcast, for example. But
(10:15):
I think what is going to change is the way
that audiences connect to the brands that have always paid
for that audience, right. And so what I've seen happen
is an acceptance of brands telling stories. I mean, look
(10:37):
at Amazon for example. Right when I speak to brand leaders,
they would love to be on Amazon or Apple because
they think of them as distributors. But Amazon and Apple
are brands that recognized rightly in my mind that storytelling
through entertainment is the ultimate loyalty program. Because I'm quite
(11:00):
sure that any Jasse and Tim Cook are not looking
at the revenues from entertainment as a force multiplier in
the growth of their business per se. But it's an
entry point into a loyalty and an embrace of that brand.
So to me, that's where it's going. That's the change.
And I think audiences are savvy. They don't want to
(11:22):
be sold to. We paid to skip commercials rather than
watch them. But nobody objects to going to watch the
Lakers at Crypto dot com arena. They don't stop watching
an F one or NASCAR race because there's a brand
on the car hood. And they'll still watch a soccer
team or football as you call it, when there's a
(11:45):
brand on the jersey. So if we can create the
same thing with films television, and I should be really clear,
that's not the only way the brand would show up
in our model, it's just the first place. But I
think audiences are comfortable as long as they of the
content they're getting.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
That's a very interesting point. Let's follow up on this
quickie you've said. I've seen it in an interview. You
said that advertisers once bought the right to interrupt stories,
and now storytelling itself seems to be the ad itself.
What new creative muscles does that demand from both Hollywood
and brands. Let's focus a bit more on the brand side.
You know, that's quite interesting how brands needs to adjust
(12:24):
and change their perspective into this.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Yeah, I mean, I think the way that this works.
And I'm glad you asked this question because there are
folks out there that dismiss Hollywood going to brands as
a money grab and in some cases that's a well
earned phrase, because Hollywood has often gone to brands when
they just need some extra money. That's not what we do.
(12:50):
I think what is really important is that we start
with brand. We start with becoming fluid with what the
brand is trying to solve. What's the demographic they want
to reach, what's the audience they care about. What do
they want the audience to feel about the brand and
know about the brand that they don't already know, and
(13:11):
how we can use this medium to send that message.
So it starts with a deep study of what a
brand is trying to do, and we dive deeply with
our brand partners early on to understand what's keeping the
c suite up at night, what are the things you're
trying to solve for At scale, we take that brand
fluency and we combine it with a Hollywood fluency. We
(13:32):
understand what sells in Hollywood. We understand what moves talent
to the IP. We understand what good IP is and
what not so good IP is. And then we try
to make a match between great IP and a brand
who would benefit from that relationship to that IP. And
then the final piece of the puzzle, and this is
(13:54):
the biggest piece of the puzzle, and it's something that
I think is uniquely suited to us. But also look
at how we can take something that's great that we
could maybe sell to Netflix and make it perfect for
a brand that we're working with by changing something in
the creative. That's our creative piece of this matchmaking. So
(14:15):
it takes three things just to recap it. We need
brand fluency, we need Hollywood fluency, and we have that
in our teams. And then our creative piece of the
puzzle is how can we make something that's almost right
exactly right? Because most brand leaders will tell you, and
they certainly have told me, when we advertise against another
(14:37):
show or we integrate into another show, there's like ten
or twenty percent of it we wish wasn't there. It's
not exactly right. For our brand that one scene later
on that's a little off brand for us. Well, by
bringing the brains in early, it's less expensive. They have
an outsized creative impact on that, and they have financial
(14:59):
upside in our model. So that ten or twenty percent
that may not just be right for them, we can
make right.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
You also said that brands can now become a full
fledged creator of film and TV, and the CMO, of
course is driving this. So what's the biggest mindset shift
a CMO has to make before stepping into Hollywood? Credibly?
And what kind of role do you see for CMO?
Is it kind of executive producer? Is it to be
a sponsor of that movie?
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Great question. Cmos are storytellers, they are producers. They come
up with an idea, they have to make that idea
fully fleshed, they have to raise the money like a producer,
and they have to find an audience. So they are
storytellers intrinsically. I think the challenge that we face and
(15:52):
I really hope that more cmos are given the freedom
to think this way, and many thankfully have, is they
are judged on quarterly KPIs time is of the essence,
speed is everything, and making movies and TV shows takes
more time than making a thirty second commercial. There's just
(16:13):
no way around that. And so the first thing they
have to shift in their mindset is expectation of delivery
of timetable in one quarter. It's just not generally going
to happen. Sometimes we get something that's more baked, and
a brand can plug in in an appropriate way. We've
done that for sure, but generally speaking, if a brand
(16:34):
wants to author from the beginning, they have to buy
into this is going to take a little bit more
time than they're used to. The second thing that they
have to buy into is that this is a brand
over time play more than a product in this quarter play.
And so I don't really think that this is the
(16:54):
best way in most cases to sell a product in
Q four, but it's the best way to sell the
brand for the next five years. And so that's the
next mind shift, the last thing, or there's many other things,
but the last thing on my mind, yeah, is that
they need to unlearn the desire or the need to
(17:15):
be in every frame of something for it to benefit
a brand. And the irony is they know this because
of other media, right, Like I referenced a stadium earlier.
You know, Crypto dot Com spent I think seven hundred
million dollars to put its name on a stadium. But
they're not in Every time Lebron James shoots a free
(17:36):
throw or Lizzo does a concert, they're not talking about
Crypto dot Com. But everyone that walks through those doors
knows that that's who opened those doors for them. So
I think it's a little bit of unlearning and also
understanding and belief that if it's excellent and people love it,
(17:57):
and this is crucial, there's enough attribution to the brand
that's clear to the audience. It's a wing yeah, right,
because if you ask this is an unscientific test. But
my suspicion is if you asked one hundred people on
the street who made the Avengers, I would say a
(18:17):
great majority would say Marvel. But Marvel is not in
one frame of the Avengers other than at the top.
It's not a no one drinks some Marvel, or eats
some Marvel, or wears a Marvel. It's just clear that
Marvel gave the audience that thing, and it creates value
(18:38):
to Marvel. And I think the same could be true
the same is true for Amazon and Apple. Right, Apple
gets all the credit for the shows it puts on
its platform, as does Amazon, but it's not heavily branded
within the shows. So I think that's another big buy in.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
You mentioned the RII. You know that that brands and
cemos needs to away from that perspective. What is the
new RAI in this world, in the brand driven storytelling world,
If it's no longer clicks and impressions.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
Well, ultimately it is clicks and impressions in a new form.
And certainly I don't think they have to move off
of ROI. That's crucial. There has to be ROI, absolutely,
But I think the challenge is some marketers feel like
they have to see the data ahead of time to
prove the concept, which is totally fair and reasonable in
(19:31):
certain advertising media. I think what's difficult now, But I
think in three years when we do this podcast, we
can refer to this and say, well, that was you
were right about that, I hope, or maybe I'll be wrong.
But we know for a fact that entertainment moves culture.
We know for a fact that entertainment shifts consumer behavior.
(19:52):
That's why advertisers buy ads against it and that's why
advertisers integrate into it. But it's impossible to predict what's
cultural phenomenon because by definition, a phenomenon only happens by accident.
So when The Queen's Gambit came out on Netflix, the
chess industry benefited exponentially by accident. When Paul Giamatti in
(20:18):
Sideways said f murlou in that movie, Murleau as a
category suffered immensely. We've seen what F one has done
with Drive to Survive. We knew even Back to the Future,
which was one of my favorite movies. I talk about
it all the time. It launched the skateboarding industry. These
are all accidents that happened. But what we're trying to
(20:41):
do is manufacture accidents. We're trying to create something that
will move culture. And by virtue of the fact that
we are the makers and our partners, we partner with
fifty to one hundred other producers by the way, they
make hits, so you mitigate that risk that it will
not be seen. But if you author something that becomes
(21:02):
a phenomenon, then you get all the benefit. And that's
the advantage. Right. If Mattel had made Queen's Gambit they
could have had an outsized return on its chess game boards,
then the whole category did.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Michael, how often do you experience attention, let's say, between
brand goals and storytelling integrity? And how do you manage that?
Do you teach brands in a way that they might
adjust their brand goals to make it more aligned with
the integrity of a story.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
If you ask me what has surprised me most about
this last few years, where I have lived and breathed
brands every day, the most surprising thing is how wonderful
the relationship has been between the sort of traditional Hollywood
storytellers and brands. The presumption that it will be full
(22:08):
of friction has not proven to be true at all,
because the entry point is almost based on this acceptance
that the brand makes the product better than any Hollywood
storyteller ever could the product the brand sells, and that
the people we're bringing to these projects make shows and
(22:29):
movies better than any brand could. And so we're agreeing
from the beginning that both sides do something better. And
then what we really work on is what's going to
work best for the brand that also works best for
the creative. So it's not like a commercial shoot where
(22:51):
you have a creative agency in the brand telling the
director exactly where to place the product in the shot.
We're not finding that so far. Ever. What we found
is that the brand is saying that sixteen year old
brother in this show, could he be eighteen because we're
(23:11):
focused on college more than high school and we'd love
him to be going into college instead of becoming a
senior in high school. Well, that's no problem because that
doesn't change our creative at all. Could it be set
in this city instead of that city? So we're finding
things that are not controversial to the creative people, and
(23:31):
because the brand is behind it from the beginning, we're
not forcing an integration at the end. We're not forcing
an integration when the show is already being made and
we need a liquor company to come in and put
some drink in some movie star's hand. We're doing it
from the very beginning. So the integration has become far
more authentic. So we've not found that friction at all.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Hey, let's move on and talk about your company, Sugar
twenty three. By the way, maybe I miss it completely,
but I Sugar twenty three.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
The story about Sugar twenty three is really I'll give
you some of the story, but the headline is when
I decided to start the company, I had investors that
supported me from my previous company, Anonymous Content, and they
really felt it was important that my name was in
the company.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
I actually would have preferred and would preferred not to
have my name in the company. But it's at least
it sounds like, you know, it's a noun. So Sugar
is okay, and twenty three is my lucky number. And
I had to decide pretty quickly what the name of
the company was going to be. So it's not as
mysterious and wonderful a story as it could be. But
ostensibly I had about twenty four hours to decide, and
(24:42):
I had to use my name, so I just threw
in my lucky number, got it. It also coincided with
I started the company exactly twenty three years after I
started in the entertainment industry.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Okay, that's your lucky number. So Sugar twenty three has
become much more than a production company. As I said
in my intro, you expanded into podcasts, publishing, digital and brands.
Was that the strategy from day one, from the beginning
on or did the business evolve more like a story itself.
Was it the plan from the day one?
Speaker 2 (25:13):
No, the plan from day one didn't involve brands at all.
In fact, it was my hope to not actually work
with brands too much when I started this company because
I saw this friction in having worked on so many
commercials at anonymous content. I always wanted to have a
multimedia company because I believe storytellers have different stories to
(25:33):
tell and sometimes they live on different media. Right. You
look at the directors that make movies that now make television,
world class directors and an actors. Right. I was very
involved in True Detective, which was really one of the
first shows alongside House of Cards, where a list movie
stars were appearing in television, which now is quite the norm.
(25:57):
But brands was not something that I thought I was
going to do. And just to be clear, brands is
almost my singular purpose right now, bringing brands into this
new relationship. So the whole company is a brand forward company. Right.
We don't have a brand division like many other Hollywood
companies have. We have a full team of about fifty
(26:22):
people that are singularly focused on bringing entertainment to audiences
and bringing brands into that conversation. Well, of course, Netflix
and Apple and Paramount are brands, so we still service
traditional entertainment, but the entire company focuses on the agendas
(26:43):
of the brands we serve. So our production team, which
is normally a Hollywood facing team, is the production team
for our brand partners. It's not like a separate unit
within the company. We all work together to figure out
the best opportunities.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
Looking back, at least into recent years, was there a
culture moment you missed to produce or you wish Sugar
twenty three had produced? Was there anything you said, oh
that was a missing opportunity for us?
Speaker 2 (27:12):
Oh, of course, every Well sometimes they're not actually opportunities.
But you know, I look at things that are successful
all the time and have envy and you know, I
wish that I had been involved with it. You know,
certainly even right now you look at Kpop and what's
going on with Netflix and their success, and yeah, Look,
you always have missed opportunities when you're a producer of
(27:34):
entertainment because it's not always just on the page, right,
It's it's not always clear from an idea or a screenplay,
and then sometimes it's just the right actor that came
around that makes it what it is. I love your question,
but I also don't like your question because I really
(27:54):
try not to ever look back with regret for missed opportunities,
because I'm a big believer that a closed door opens
another one. And I don't know what benefit there is
in licking my wounds because I didn't make something. But
generally I'm pretty convicted when I see something, and so
I don't live with a lot of regret at all.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
Good Good. There was a news recently, I think it
was last week about you and AD Council. So let's
talk about that new partnership you created with the AD Council.
It's about AD Council Entertainment. Please give us some background
what it means and how you're mixing now social impact
and scripted storytelling. How do you see mission driven entertainment
(28:35):
shaping both Hollywood and brand marketing now over the next decade.
So tell us a bit more the idea behind and
what we can expect in the next couple of weeks
a month.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
I would say, among many of my achievements in life,
like this is something I'm about as excited for as
anything else I've ever done. As you know, the AD
Council has been around for a long time eighty years
and has been behind some of the most moving and
impactful campaigns ever, you know, starting early on as Smoky
(29:05):
to Bear, you know, all the other campaigns that have
really brought attention to the issues that face our country.
And there are always a lot of issues to solve.
So the Eye Council has been an incredible force with
the support of brands and Hollywood together and the media
to make change through PSAs and billboards and pamphlets and
(29:30):
all the other myriad resources. And that's really important that
the AD Council has created to give people hope for
a better future. And on my side of the equation,
I've always been drawn towards telling stories that move people
to change as well. Right, Spotlight was a good example
(29:51):
of a movie that was certainly meant to be entertaining
on its surface, and we didn't make it to change
some of the institutional corruption in the Catholic Church, and
certainly we didn't want to attack the Catholic Church as
an institution, but there was some institutional change that was
needed and frankly was made because of that movie. Thirteen
(30:14):
reasons why again another show. We didn't set out to
be dogmatic or preachy about the issues facing kids in
our country. We knew it was going to tackle that issue,
but it became a sensation in this country, you know.
I think something like forty or fifty thousand high schools
sent letters to every parent talking about the show. So
(30:37):
I've always been drawn to stories that have entertainment on
the surface and import underneath. So when Lisa Sherman and
I got to talking about an affect Christian, you were
very nearby, sitting a table away. When we had this
first conversation. I remember it well. We started thinking about, well,
wait a second, if we're trying to move the world
(30:58):
through content, why not do it through the kind of
content that people invite into their home rather than pay
to skip and or in addition to that, I should say,
because that's still a very important part of how they
communicate to the audience, but to add a layer through
long form entertainment just made so much sense. And so
I'm really excited about it. And we're already getting bombarded
(31:23):
with opportunities from throughout Hollywood and sports and music who
are coming to us, and as Lisa and I have
said a few times like we are not meant to
be the only producers of entertainment for AD Council. Sugar
twenty three is really just here to be a conduit
for all of the storytellers that have something to say
that might be right to partner with the AD Council.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
So everybody can join. Obviously who's interested.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
In everyone is welcome, but more the better.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
What a great project can you imagine about a social
issue in today's time? You would like to jump immediately
on it, you know, and want to create a story
and put do use the story about it? Is there
one dedicated topic you would like to start immediately on it?
Speaker 2 (32:05):
The Eye Council, you know, every year has votes on
the issues that they're going to focus most on, and
there's also evergreen topics. So there's about twenty or so
pillars I would say to answer your question are at
least first core target is the availability and value of
(32:26):
mental health resources and focusing on the epidemic of loneliness
and the mental health crisis that we are clearly having
in this country and throughout the world right now. And
so what we're looking to do is and we have
a number of things in development already with it or
the Eye Council that tackle some of those issues. But
you know, how do we frame those conversations in a
(32:48):
way that is very digestible to an audience, right And
one of the things that we're really excited about is
there's just so much coming me in on that subject,
but also focused on a number of other issues that
are of great importance not only to the AD Council,
but I think to most people, which is like, how
(33:08):
can we agree on on gun violence? Whether we agree
on guns, I think we agree a lot more on
how they should be used and finding a place where
we can agree to agree instead of agree to disagree.
So there's a number of pillars that we're focusing on,
but mental health is for now principle among them.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
That's great, It's an amazing partnership when I've read about it,
you know, and of course we're also close to AD Council.
We hope we play our part, you know, to supporting
their gender. Everybody's our gender. One more question here in
this area, how does success look like for mission driven storytelling?
I mean, I'm sure we're not talking necessary about watts.
I mean warts can help, you know, to bring awareness
(33:54):
and reach seeing a cultural shift. What could be the outcome,
you know, to say that was successful, that wasn't so successful.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
I think the outcome for the AD Council in particular
is to create shows, movies, documentaries that stir the conversation
in the direction that it intends, which is, how do
we move things to a better place by creating a
more scaled awareness, by creating more skilled awareness of the
(34:24):
resources that are available, by normalizing the conversation. You know,
we talked about drunk driving a lot the Plate Against
Drinking and Driving, and you know, all of the great
work that so many organizations did, including AD Council, around
people not you know, not drinking and driving and friends
not letting friends drive drunk. But one of the most
(34:45):
impactful moments in that awareness was in the show Cheers
where Norm was going to leave and Sam the bartender
took his keys, right, you can't drive, I'm going to
take your keys. Because it normalized is it in a
medium that felt very comfortable and familiar. So I think
success will be measured by do we get an audience,
(35:07):
does that audience move in a direction towards positivity through that,
you know, audience and you know, awards, Like you said,
that's not what drives anybody. I don't think, certainly, not
in this equation. But you're right to say that awards
make a difference when they come because it creates much
(35:27):
more awareness.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
I crossed the fingers for a lot of great outcome,
and I'm really looking forward to see that, saying you
work happening. Let's look into the future for a second.
You know, imagine Sugar twenty three in the year of
twenty thirty. So in five years time or less, do
you want to be known more as a Hollywood company
that worked with brands or as a place where brands
(35:50):
became Hollywood.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Well, I want to be known for doing good things,
doing good work, and doing it in a good way
with humanity and grace, which is a through line in
our business model. I think the legacy is one and
the same. Whether it's me bringing Hollywood to brands, or
(36:14):
me bringing brands to Hollywood, or certainly being a part
of that, I'm not the only one doing it. If
we make great stories that move the world to a
better place, that's what I want to be known for.
But I do believe that this is a moment in
time in the advertising industry and in a media industry
(36:35):
at large, that there needs to be a rebirth and
a revamp. I think no one argues that it's not
working as it used to on any side. So I
want to be known as the bridge, not one side
or the other.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
And while you doing this, you're obviously wearing a couple
of different hats, right, You're a producer, you're a CEO,
founder and mentor an entrepreneur. What else? More importantly, if
you have to choose one of those heads, which one
would it be?
Speaker 2 (37:05):
Wow? Well, my most important hat is being a father
and being a dad and being a husband. And I
think the way that I try to lead a company
as a CEO and being a producer, you're really just
the CEO of an individual project, and you're an entrepreneur.
(37:26):
And by the way, I think those of us that
have kids feel like we're CEOs and employees and entrepreneurs
every day. Yeah, I think the hat that I like
to wear the most is the hat that lets me
inspire others the most. And the way that I do that,
I think best is just by modeling it. It's the
same way that I always tell my son like or
(37:49):
think about parenting that way for me. You can tell
your kid, or you can tell a colleague how to
do something, but most people were being told how to
do anything because we just have this predisposition against being
told to do anything. But when you see it happening,
when you replicate it happening, I think that's when you
(38:12):
can impact the real result. So I guess of all
of those hats, CEO is probably my favorite thing because
it puts me in a place of responsibility for others.
I think entrepreneur feels almost too self serving for me,
although certainly I consider myself entrepreneurial, but I think that
(38:33):
no person is able to do it alone. So what
I like about being a CEO is that my job
is really in service of other people, not myself.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
And whatever had you choose, what I can say is
not just based on today's conversation, because we know each
other for some time now. You're an amazing person with
an amazing story behind. So thank you so much for
sharing this with me and the audience today. Mike, is
there any other topic which we missed that you feel
it's important to mention?
Speaker 2 (39:03):
No, none at this moment. I appreciate that. I just
want to say that what you have created has created
possibility for me. You've also been a bridge between the
worlds that have always been colliding and need to coalesce.
So it's really an honor to be part of this incredible,
(39:24):
ambitious dream of yours in any form and experiencing what
you have built firsthand is amazing, and to be able
to talk to you one on one like always is
also inspiring. So I'm deeply grateful for the opportunity.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
Michael. Thank you so much also for reminding all of
us that the future of marketing may not look like
an ad at all, but more like a story you
know worth remembering. Thank you for bringing this and your
vision to our audience and to everybody out there. Keep
telling both stories, keep challenging old models, and keep turning
possibilities into reality. I see you soon back here at
(40:02):
Possible Now. Thank you, Thank you, Thanks for tuning in everyone.
Once again. I'm your host, Christian Mohre. If you have
a question or suggestion to me, reach out send me
d M on LinkedIn. If you're curious to learn more
about Possible, sign up for our newsletter, or if you
want to join us at the Possible Show in Miami
visit Possible event dot com. Possible Now is a co
(40:25):
production of iHeartMedia and Possible. Our executive producers are Ryan
Martz and Yasmin Melndez. Our supervising producer is Meredith Barnes.
Special thanks to Colleen Lawrence Mack from our programming team.
Our theme music is composed by Anthony Keatacoli. For more
podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart app Purple Podcast, or
(40:46):
wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to Possible Now Stories of Possibilities, the podcast where
we dive into the leadership frameworks, bold ideas and personal
stories shaping the future of marketing, technology and leadership. There's
the reason the best films stay with us long after
the credits role. They don't just entertain, They shift culture,
(00:26):
They change conversations, and they make us see the world differently.
That's the power of storytelling, and it's also where the
future of marketing, media, advertising and culture is heavy. I'm
Christie Much and this is Possible Now Stories of Possibilities,
the podcast where we explore bold ideas and the leaders
reshaping business, creativity and technology. And today I have the
(00:51):
honor of welcoming someone who embodies that vision. Michael Sugar
is an Academy Award winning producer of Spotlight. He's brought
us acclaimed series like the Netflix hit Thirteen Reasons Why,
the Nick, Collateral, Beauty, and Maniac, and through his company
Sugar twenty three, he's building a creative powerhouse that expands
(01:14):
far beyond Hollywood into publishing, podcasting, digital and now brand
storytelling at the very highest level. Michael is more than
a producer. He's a cultural architect, a visionary who's blurring
the line between entertainment and marketing, between art and commerce,
between purpose and profit. He has been nominated for multiple
(01:36):
Emmys and Golden Globes, has received two Television Academy Honor
and so many more, and today we get to step
into his world. Welcome Michael Sugar.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Thank you for having me. I appreciate that introduction. I'm
really excited.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
To talk Michael. Before we dive really into the details
of storytelling. Then and now, please can you tell us
how you ended up up in Hollywood. Give us some
background about the last I don't know ten twenty thirty
years of your activities in Hollywood.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
I've always wanted from as long as I can remember,
to tell stories. My brother and I used to play
studio as kids, and I think this was because I
was so moved by the movies and shows that I
experienced as a child, and so I went to school
always with the same sense of my future, which was
(02:29):
that I was going to make movies. I even went
to law school knowing that I wasn't going to practice law,
and so when I started in Hollywood, I was like
anyone with a dream, just trying to figure out my
way and I think really accidentally fell into talent management
(02:50):
as my entry point. So I started representing writers, directors, actors,
and they were mostly undiscovered people. In fact, at the
beginning they were entirely underscore governed artists, and started making
my way with them. What ended up happening, you know,
maybe twenty years ago, is I saw the opportunity to
start producing. It was always my passion to be on
(03:12):
the set, involved in the creativity, rather than just visiting
an actor or a director who was doing their movie.
And so that sort of second chapter for me was born.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Awesome, that's a great story, Michael. I mean, this is
not the end of the story for show. There many
more to come. But if you're life up to this
point were turned into a film, into a movie not
produced by you but by someone else, what should be
or what could be the title of that movie? Can
you imagine?
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Wow? That's a tough question to answer in real time, Christian,
but I think maybe dream it and build it. That's
a good choice. That's a good choice. That's not a
very good catchy title for a movie. As a producer,
I would strike that title. But I think ostensibly, what
I'm trying to say is I've really always tried to
(04:03):
do things that haven't been done before in the industry
that has lived a certain way for a long time.
So I think that the sort of key moments in
my career and the key transformations were connected to moments
of disruption and the need to change systems that were working.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
So let's talk about storytelling. And because you decided to
expand significantly into a new form of content a while ago,
that is not what we typically think about as branded
content or marketing spend, right, What could you see in
this evolving entertainment and advertising business landscape that not many
others could foresee?
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Well, I think, first of all, I didn't invent this.
There are many others that have been doing this long
before me, so I won't take any credit for that
disruption at all. And what you said was interesting. You
said a new form of content, but I actually think
it's the same form of content. What I'm really trying
to do differently is a new relationship between those that
(05:08):
have paid for that content for decades and the audience
that has consumed that content. Right, So what I'm focused
on is not making shows and movies for brands. I'm
focused on making shows and movies with brands for the
purpose of the brand values, the brand ethos, whatever the
brand is trying to solve for being much more interconnected
(05:32):
to the outcome than has otherwise been offered to them
in the past in the form of pure integration or
renting thirty seconds against someone else's content. So it's not
new content at all that we're trying to create. We're
trying to make the kinds of content audiences are used
(05:53):
to loving and consuming and devouring with passion, and have
the brands be behind them, notably behind them with great attribution,
but not necessarily in them per se. Integration, of course
is important when it's authentic, But what we think is
more important is that the people who love the content
(06:14):
that love the brand for giving it to them, and
it creates a new relationship.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
So the different stages of storytelling and where it is today,
do you think that there's something radically different compared to
the past, or if there's any kind of development you
can see what is the reason behind? Is it the
influence of technology in today's time? Is it audience expectations
or the change of behavior? What could it be?
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Well, the reason I love your conference so much is
because you've brought together worlds that are normally separate, and
they aren't separate. Let's start with technology. Streaming changed Hollywood, right,
we know this to be the case, but it also
changed the relationship between advertisers and the consumer through the
(07:05):
medium that Hollywood has created. So let's start with technology.
There's been a change the disintermediation of advertisers. The move
away from linear television into streaming or at least another
place for an audience to go, has created a friction
for advertisers. That friction has also created problems for the
(07:27):
linear programmers because they're unable to sell the inventory at
the price points they were able to spend before, which
creates a problem for the entertainment industry because the economics
have shrump. And so the way that I look at
where we are, and this is my long way of
answering your short question why now, is that every stakeholder
(07:51):
in this system has been forced to reconcile the change
and adjust. The advertisers need to reach an audience that
is far more fragmented than it's ever been. Hollywood, it's
well reported, is struggling because there's just not as much
(08:12):
opportunity as there was five, ten, fifteen years ago, and
the audiences are so hungry for good content amongst the
noise that what's happened recently, and again I'm not the
person who invented this at all, but what's happened is
that there is a new embrace of this change of
(08:37):
relationship because it solves for every leg of the stool.
And I think that's why we're having success, because advertisers
need a new lane to reach its consumer. Distributors. When
I say distributors, I mean the premium streamers and broadcasters
need help with their content because it's been, as you know,
(09:00):
a cold war and a proliferation of content, and that
becomes expensive. And the audience is still crave what they've
always craved, which is really great content. And so I
think that's why we've landed in this almost perfect storm
of opportunity for brands to enter Hollywood this way.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
So you perfectly described the situation of now. But can
you already see the next level of storytelling or the
next kind of format of storytelling which will break into
the mainstream, which we can't see yet.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
I mean, I don't know that. What I'm working hard
at and my team is working at is going to
change storytelling per se. I think storytelling from the beginning
of time has always been can I tell you something
that captures your attention long enough and moves you deeply
enough to connect to it, right, And that's whether you're
(09:55):
around a campfire or you're behind a television or a
movie screen. That's through line of storytelling. So I don't
think that will ever change, and I don't think that
even changes with the proliferation of AI. I think at
the end of the day, good stories are good stories,
regardless of the medium books, this podcast, for example. But
(10:15):
I think what is going to change is the way
that audiences connect to the brands that have always paid
for that audience, right. And so what I've seen happen
is an acceptance of brands telling stories. I mean, look
(10:37):
at Amazon for example. Right when I speak to brand leaders,
they would love to be on Amazon or Apple because
they think of them as distributors. But Amazon and Apple
are brands that recognized rightly in my mind that storytelling
through entertainment is the ultimate loyalty program. Because I'm quite
(11:00):
sure that any Jasse and Tim Cook are not looking
at the revenues from entertainment as a force multiplier in
the growth of their business per se. But it's an
entry point into a loyalty and an embrace of that brand.
So to me, that's where it's going. That's the change.
And I think audiences are savvy. They don't want to
(11:22):
be sold to. We paid to skip commercials rather than
watch them. But nobody objects to going to watch the
Lakers at Crypto dot com arena. They don't stop watching
an F one or NASCAR race because there's a brand
on the car hood. And they'll still watch a soccer
team or football as you call it, when there's a
(11:45):
brand on the jersey. So if we can create the
same thing with films television, and I should be really clear,
that's not the only way the brand would show up
in our model, it's just the first place. But I
think audiences are comfortable as long as they of the
content they're getting.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
That's a very interesting point. Let's follow up on this
quickie you've said. I've seen it in an interview. You
said that advertisers once bought the right to interrupt stories,
and now storytelling itself seems to be the ad itself.
What new creative muscles does that demand from both Hollywood
and brands. Let's focus a bit more on the brand side.
You know, that's quite interesting how brands needs to adjust
(12:24):
and change their perspective into this.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Yeah, I mean, I think the way that this works.
And I'm glad you asked this question because there are
folks out there that dismiss Hollywood going to brands as
a money grab and in some cases that's a well
earned phrase, because Hollywood has often gone to brands when
they just need some extra money. That's not what we do.
(12:50):
I think what is really important is that we start
with brand. We start with becoming fluid with what the
brand is trying to solve. What's the demographic they want
to reach, what's the audience they care about. What do
they want the audience to feel about the brand and
know about the brand that they don't already know, and
(13:11):
how we can use this medium to send that message.
So it starts with a deep study of what a
brand is trying to do, and we dive deeply with
our brand partners early on to understand what's keeping the
c suite up at night, what are the things you're
trying to solve for At scale, we take that brand
fluency and we combine it with a Hollywood fluency. We
(13:32):
understand what sells in Hollywood. We understand what moves talent
to the IP. We understand what good IP is and
what not so good IP is. And then we try
to make a match between great IP and a brand
who would benefit from that relationship to that IP. And
then the final piece of the puzzle, and this is
(13:54):
the biggest piece of the puzzle, and it's something that
I think is uniquely suited to us. But also look
at how we can take something that's great that we
could maybe sell to Netflix and make it perfect for
a brand that we're working with by changing something in
the creative. That's our creative piece of this matchmaking. So
(14:15):
it takes three things just to recap it. We need
brand fluency, we need Hollywood fluency, and we have that
in our teams. And then our creative piece of the
puzzle is how can we make something that's almost right
exactly right? Because most brand leaders will tell you, and
they certainly have told me, when we advertise against another
(14:37):
show or we integrate into another show, there's like ten
or twenty percent of it we wish wasn't there. It's
not exactly right. For our brand that one scene later
on that's a little off brand for us. Well, by
bringing the brains in early, it's less expensive. They have
an outsized creative impact on that, and they have financial
(14:59):
upside in our model. So that ten or twenty percent
that may not just be right for them, we can
make right.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
You also said that brands can now become a full
fledged creator of film and TV, and the CMO, of
course is driving this. So what's the biggest mindset shift
a CMO has to make before stepping into Hollywood? Credibly?
And what kind of role do you see for CMO?
Is it kind of executive producer? Is it to be
a sponsor of that movie?
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Great question. Cmos are storytellers, they are producers. They come
up with an idea, they have to make that idea
fully fleshed, they have to raise the money like a producer,
and they have to find an audience. So they are
storytellers intrinsically. I think the challenge that we face and
(15:52):
I really hope that more cmos are given the freedom
to think this way, and many thankfully have, is they
are judged on quarterly KPIs time is of the essence,
speed is everything, and making movies and TV shows takes
more time than making a thirty second commercial. There's just
(16:13):
no way around that. And so the first thing they
have to shift in their mindset is expectation of delivery
of timetable in one quarter. It's just not generally going
to happen. Sometimes we get something that's more baked, and
a brand can plug in in an appropriate way. We've
done that for sure, but generally speaking, if a brand
(16:34):
wants to author from the beginning, they have to buy
into this is going to take a little bit more
time than they're used to. The second thing that they
have to buy into is that this is a brand
over time play more than a product in this quarter play.
And so I don't really think that this is the
(16:54):
best way in most cases to sell a product in
Q four, but it's the best way to sell the
brand for the next five years. And so that's the
next mind shift, the last thing, or there's many other things,
but the last thing on my mind, yeah, is that
they need to unlearn the desire or the need to
(17:15):
be in every frame of something for it to benefit
a brand. And the irony is they know this because
of other media, right, Like I referenced a stadium earlier.
You know, Crypto dot Com spent I think seven hundred
million dollars to put its name on a stadium. But
they're not in Every time Lebron James shoots a free
(17:36):
throw or Lizzo does a concert, they're not talking about
Crypto dot Com. But everyone that walks through those doors
knows that that's who opened those doors for them. So
I think it's a little bit of unlearning and also
understanding and belief that if it's excellent and people love it,
(17:57):
and this is crucial, there's enough attribution to the brand
that's clear to the audience. It's a wing yeah, right,
because if you ask this is an unscientific test. But
my suspicion is if you asked one hundred people on
the street who made the Avengers, I would say a
(18:17):
great majority would say Marvel. But Marvel is not in
one frame of the Avengers other than at the top.
It's not a no one drinks some Marvel, or eats
some Marvel, or wears a Marvel. It's just clear that
Marvel gave the audience that thing, and it creates value
(18:38):
to Marvel. And I think the same could be true
the same is true for Amazon and Apple. Right, Apple
gets all the credit for the shows it puts on
its platform, as does Amazon, but it's not heavily branded
within the shows. So I think that's another big buy in.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
You mentioned the RII. You know that that brands and
cemos needs to away from that perspective. What is the
new RAI in this world, in the brand driven storytelling world,
If it's no longer clicks and impressions.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
Well, ultimately it is clicks and impressions in a new form.
And certainly I don't think they have to move off
of ROI. That's crucial. There has to be ROI, absolutely,
But I think the challenge is some marketers feel like
they have to see the data ahead of time to
prove the concept, which is totally fair and reasonable in
(19:31):
certain advertising media. I think what's difficult now, But I
think in three years when we do this podcast, we
can refer to this and say, well, that was you
were right about that, I hope, or maybe I'll be wrong.
But we know for a fact that entertainment moves culture.
We know for a fact that entertainment shifts consumer behavior.
(19:52):
That's why advertisers buy ads against it and that's why
advertisers integrate into it. But it's impossible to predict what's
cultural phenomenon because by definition, a phenomenon only happens by accident.
So when The Queen's Gambit came out on Netflix, the
chess industry benefited exponentially by accident. When Paul Giamatti in
(20:18):
Sideways said f murlou in that movie, Murleau as a
category suffered immensely. We've seen what F one has done
with Drive to Survive. We knew even Back to the Future,
which was one of my favorite movies. I talk about
it all the time. It launched the skateboarding industry. These
are all accidents that happened. But what we're trying to
(20:41):
do is manufacture accidents. We're trying to create something that
will move culture. And by virtue of the fact that
we are the makers and our partners, we partner with
fifty to one hundred other producers by the way, they
make hits, so you mitigate that risk that it will
not be seen. But if you author something that becomes
(21:02):
a phenomenon, then you get all the benefit. And that's
the advantage. Right. If Mattel had made Queen's Gambit they
could have had an outsized return on its chess game boards,
then the whole category did.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Michael, how often do you experience attention, let's say, between
brand goals and storytelling integrity? And how do you manage that?
Do you teach brands in a way that they might
adjust their brand goals to make it more aligned with
the integrity of a story.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
If you ask me what has surprised me most about
this last few years, where I have lived and breathed
brands every day, the most surprising thing is how wonderful
the relationship has been between the sort of traditional Hollywood
storytellers and brands. The presumption that it will be full
(22:08):
of friction has not proven to be true at all,
because the entry point is almost based on this acceptance
that the brand makes the product better than any Hollywood
storyteller ever could the product the brand sells, and that
the people we're bringing to these projects make shows and
(22:29):
movies better than any brand could. And so we're agreeing
from the beginning that both sides do something better. And
then what we really work on is what's going to
work best for the brand that also works best for
the creative. So it's not like a commercial shoot where
(22:51):
you have a creative agency in the brand telling the
director exactly where to place the product in the shot.
We're not finding that so far. Ever. What we found
is that the brand is saying that sixteen year old
brother in this show, could he be eighteen because we're
(23:11):
focused on college more than high school and we'd love
him to be going into college instead of becoming a
senior in high school. Well, that's no problem because that
doesn't change our creative at all. Could it be set
in this city instead of that city? So we're finding
things that are not controversial to the creative people, and
(23:31):
because the brand is behind it from the beginning, we're
not forcing an integration at the end. We're not forcing
an integration when the show is already being made and
we need a liquor company to come in and put
some drink in some movie star's hand. We're doing it
from the very beginning. So the integration has become far
more authentic. So we've not found that friction at all.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Hey, let's move on and talk about your company, Sugar
twenty three. By the way, maybe I miss it completely,
but I Sugar twenty three.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
The story about Sugar twenty three is really I'll give
you some of the story, but the headline is when
I decided to start the company, I had investors that
supported me from my previous company, Anonymous Content, and they
really felt it was important that my name was in
the company.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
I actually would have preferred and would preferred not to
have my name in the company. But it's at least
it sounds like, you know, it's a noun. So Sugar
is okay, and twenty three is my lucky number. And
I had to decide pretty quickly what the name of
the company was going to be. So it's not as
mysterious and wonderful a story as it could be. But
ostensibly I had about twenty four hours to decide, and
(24:42):
I had to use my name, so I just threw
in my lucky number, got it. It also coincided with
I started the company exactly twenty three years after I
started in the entertainment industry.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Okay, that's your lucky number. So Sugar twenty three has
become much more than a production company. As I said
in my intro, you expanded into podcasts, publishing, digital and brands.
Was that the strategy from day one, from the beginning
on or did the business evolve more like a story itself.
Was it the plan from the day one?
Speaker 2 (25:13):
No, the plan from day one didn't involve brands at all.
In fact, it was my hope to not actually work
with brands too much when I started this company because
I saw this friction in having worked on so many
commercials at anonymous content. I always wanted to have a
multimedia company because I believe storytellers have different stories to
(25:33):
tell and sometimes they live on different media. Right. You
look at the directors that make movies that now make television,
world class directors and an actors. Right. I was very
involved in True Detective, which was really one of the
first shows alongside House of Cards, where a list movie
stars were appearing in television, which now is quite the norm.
(25:57):
But brands was not something that I thought I was
going to do. And just to be clear, brands is
almost my singular purpose right now, bringing brands into this
new relationship. So the whole company is a brand forward company. Right.
We don't have a brand division like many other Hollywood
companies have. We have a full team of about fifty
(26:22):
people that are singularly focused on bringing entertainment to audiences
and bringing brands into that conversation. Well, of course, Netflix
and Apple and Paramount are brands, so we still service
traditional entertainment, but the entire company focuses on the agendas
(26:43):
of the brands we serve. So our production team, which
is normally a Hollywood facing team, is the production team
for our brand partners. It's not like a separate unit
within the company. We all work together to figure out
the best opportunities.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
Looking back, at least into recent years, was there a
culture moment you missed to produce or you wish Sugar
twenty three had produced? Was there anything you said, oh
that was a missing opportunity for us?
Speaker 2 (27:12):
Oh, of course, every Well sometimes they're not actually opportunities.
But you know, I look at things that are successful
all the time and have envy and you know, I
wish that I had been involved with it. You know,
certainly even right now you look at Kpop and what's
going on with Netflix and their success, and yeah, Look,
you always have missed opportunities when you're a producer of
(27:34):
entertainment because it's not always just on the page, right,
It's it's not always clear from an idea or a screenplay,
and then sometimes it's just the right actor that came
around that makes it what it is. I love your question,
but I also don't like your question because I really
(27:54):
try not to ever look back with regret for missed opportunities,
because I'm a big believer that a closed door opens
another one. And I don't know what benefit there is
in licking my wounds because I didn't make something. But
generally I'm pretty convicted when I see something, and so
I don't live with a lot of regret at all.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
Good Good. There was a news recently, I think it
was last week about you and AD Council. So let's
talk about that new partnership you created with the AD Council.
It's about AD Council Entertainment. Please give us some background
what it means and how you're mixing now social impact
and scripted storytelling. How do you see mission driven entertainment
(28:35):
shaping both Hollywood and brand marketing now over the next decade.
So tell us a bit more the idea behind and
what we can expect in the next couple of weeks
a month.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
I would say, among many of my achievements in life,
like this is something I'm about as excited for as
anything else I've ever done. As you know, the AD
Council has been around for a long time eighty years
and has been behind some of the most moving and
impactful campaigns ever, you know, starting early on as Smoky
(29:05):
to Bear, you know, all the other campaigns that have
really brought attention to the issues that face our country.
And there are always a lot of issues to solve.
So the Eye Council has been an incredible force with
the support of brands and Hollywood together and the media
to make change through PSAs and billboards and pamphlets and
(29:30):
all the other myriad resources. And that's really important that
the AD Council has created to give people hope for
a better future. And on my side of the equation,
I've always been drawn towards telling stories that move people
to change as well. Right, Spotlight was a good example
(29:51):
of a movie that was certainly meant to be entertaining
on its surface, and we didn't make it to change
some of the institutional corruption in the Catholic Church, and
certainly we didn't want to attack the Catholic Church as
an institution, but there was some institutional change that was
needed and frankly was made because of that movie. Thirteen
(30:14):
reasons why again another show. We didn't set out to
be dogmatic or preachy about the issues facing kids in
our country. We knew it was going to tackle that issue,
but it became a sensation in this country, you know.
I think something like forty or fifty thousand high schools
sent letters to every parent talking about the show. So
(30:37):
I've always been drawn to stories that have entertainment on
the surface and import underneath. So when Lisa Sherman and
I got to talking about an affect Christian, you were
very nearby, sitting a table away. When we had this
first conversation. I remember it well. We started thinking about, well,
wait a second, if we're trying to move the world
(30:58):
through content, why not do it through the kind of
content that people invite into their home rather than pay
to skip and or in addition to that, I should say,
because that's still a very important part of how they
communicate to the audience, but to add a layer through
long form entertainment just made so much sense. And so
I'm really excited about it. And we're already getting bombarded
(31:23):
with opportunities from throughout Hollywood and sports and music who
are coming to us, and as Lisa and I have
said a few times like we are not meant to
be the only producers of entertainment for AD Council. Sugar
twenty three is really just here to be a conduit
for all of the storytellers that have something to say
that might be right to partner with the AD Council.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
So everybody can join. Obviously who's interested.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
In everyone is welcome, but more the better.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
What a great project can you imagine about a social
issue in today's time? You would like to jump immediately
on it, you know, and want to create a story
and put do use the story about it? Is there
one dedicated topic you would like to start immediately on it?
Speaker 2 (32:05):
The Eye Council, you know, every year has votes on
the issues that they're going to focus most on, and
there's also evergreen topics. So there's about twenty or so
pillars I would say to answer your question are at
least first core target is the availability and value of
(32:26):
mental health resources and focusing on the epidemic of loneliness
and the mental health crisis that we are clearly having
in this country and throughout the world right now. And
so what we're looking to do is and we have
a number of things in development already with it or
the Eye Council that tackle some of those issues. But
you know, how do we frame those conversations in a
(32:48):
way that is very digestible to an audience, right And
one of the things that we're really excited about is
there's just so much coming me in on that subject,
but also focused on a number of other issues that
are of great importance not only to the AD Council,
but I think to most people, which is like, how
(33:08):
can we agree on on gun violence? Whether we agree
on guns, I think we agree a lot more on
how they should be used and finding a place where
we can agree to agree instead of agree to disagree.
So there's a number of pillars that we're focusing on,
but mental health is for now principle among them.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
That's great, It's an amazing partnership when I've read about it,
you know, and of course we're also close to AD Council.
We hope we play our part, you know, to supporting
their gender. Everybody's our gender. One more question here in
this area, how does success look like for mission driven storytelling?
I mean, I'm sure we're not talking necessary about watts.
I mean warts can help, you know, to bring awareness
(33:54):
and reach seeing a cultural shift. What could be the outcome,
you know, to say that was successful, that wasn't so successful.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
I think the outcome for the AD Council in particular
is to create shows, movies, documentaries that stir the conversation
in the direction that it intends, which is, how do
we move things to a better place by creating a
more scaled awareness, by creating more skilled awareness of the
(34:24):
resources that are available, by normalizing the conversation. You know,
we talked about drunk driving a lot the Plate Against
Drinking and Driving, and you know, all of the great
work that so many organizations did, including AD Council, around
people not you know, not drinking and driving and friends
not letting friends drive drunk. But one of the most
(34:45):
impactful moments in that awareness was in the show Cheers
where Norm was going to leave and Sam the bartender
took his keys, right, you can't drive, I'm going to
take your keys. Because it normalized is it in a
medium that felt very comfortable and familiar. So I think
success will be measured by do we get an audience,
(35:07):
does that audience move in a direction towards positivity through that,
you know, audience and you know, awards, Like you said,
that's not what drives anybody. I don't think, certainly, not
in this equation. But you're right to say that awards
make a difference when they come because it creates much
(35:27):
more awareness.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
I crossed the fingers for a lot of great outcome,
and I'm really looking forward to see that, saying you
work happening. Let's look into the future for a second.
You know, imagine Sugar twenty three in the year of
twenty thirty. So in five years time or less, do
you want to be known more as a Hollywood company
that worked with brands or as a place where brands
(35:50):
became Hollywood.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Well, I want to be known for doing good things,
doing good work, and doing it in a good way
with humanity and grace, which is a through line in
our business model. I think the legacy is one and
the same. Whether it's me bringing Hollywood to brands, or
(36:14):
me bringing brands to Hollywood, or certainly being a part
of that, I'm not the only one doing it. If
we make great stories that move the world to a
better place, that's what I want to be known for.
But I do believe that this is a moment in
time in the advertising industry and in a media industry
(36:35):
at large, that there needs to be a rebirth and
a revamp. I think no one argues that it's not
working as it used to on any side. So I
want to be known as the bridge, not one side
or the other.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
And while you doing this, you're obviously wearing a couple
of different hats, right, You're a producer, you're a CEO,
founder and mentor an entrepreneur. What else? More importantly, if
you have to choose one of those heads, which one
would it be?
Speaker 2 (37:05):
Wow? Well, my most important hat is being a father
and being a dad and being a husband. And I
think the way that I try to lead a company
as a CEO and being a producer, you're really just
the CEO of an individual project, and you're an entrepreneur.
(37:26):
And by the way, I think those of us that
have kids feel like we're CEOs and employees and entrepreneurs
every day. Yeah, I think the hat that I like
to wear the most is the hat that lets me
inspire others the most. And the way that I do that,
I think best is just by modeling it. It's the
same way that I always tell my son like or
(37:49):
think about parenting that way for me. You can tell
your kid, or you can tell a colleague how to
do something, but most people were being told how to
do anything because we just have this predisposition against being
told to do anything. But when you see it happening,
when you replicate it happening, I think that's when you
(38:12):
can impact the real result. So I guess of all
of those hats, CEO is probably my favorite thing because
it puts me in a place of responsibility for others.
I think entrepreneur feels almost too self serving for me,
although certainly I consider myself entrepreneurial, but I think that
(38:33):
no person is able to do it alone. So what
I like about being a CEO is that my job
is really in service of other people, not myself.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
And whatever had you choose, what I can say is
not just based on today's conversation, because we know each
other for some time now. You're an amazing person with
an amazing story behind. So thank you so much for
sharing this with me and the audience today. Mike, is
there any other topic which we missed that you feel
it's important to mention?
Speaker 2 (39:03):
No, none at this moment. I appreciate that. I just
want to say that what you have created has created
possibility for me. You've also been a bridge between the
worlds that have always been colliding and need to coalesce.
So it's really an honor to be part of this incredible,
(39:24):
ambitious dream of yours in any form and experiencing what
you have built firsthand is amazing, and to be able
to talk to you one on one like always is
also inspiring. So I'm deeply grateful for the opportunity.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
Michael. Thank you so much also for reminding all of
us that the future of marketing may not look like
an ad at all, but more like a story you
know worth remembering. Thank you for bringing this and your
vision to our audience and to everybody out there. Keep
telling both stories, keep challenging old models, and keep turning
possibilities into reality. I see you soon back here at
(40:02):
Possible Now. Thank you, Thank you, Thanks for tuning in everyone.
Once again. I'm your host, Christian Mohre. If you have
a question or suggestion to me, reach out send me
d M on LinkedIn. If you're curious to learn more
about Possible, sign up for our newsletter, or if you
want to join us at the Possible Show in Miami
visit Possible event dot com. Possible Now is a co
(40:25):
production of iHeartMedia and Possible. Our executive producers are Ryan
Martz and Yasmin Melndez. Our supervising producer is Meredith Barnes.
Special thanks to Colleen Lawrence Mack from our programming team.
Our theme music is composed by Anthony Keatacoli. For more
podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart app Purple Podcast, or
(40:46):
wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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