How Paul Rabil, The GOAT of Lacrosse, Changed The Sport Forever

What does it take to be one of the greatest athletes of all time and build your own professional league from scratch? In this episode, lacrosse legend and PLL co-founder Paul Rabil opens up about the mental, physical, and emotional toll of chasing greatness — and the philosophy that got him through it. From reframing pain, embracing failure, and building a league when the sport was breaking down, to managing pressure and dreaming big while working small, this conversation dives deep into elite athlete mindset, creative leadership, and the future of pro sports. Whether you're a sports fan, creator, or entrepreneur, there’s a lesson here for you.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
What is Up? Runner Gang, Welcome back to Post run High.
Today's episode is a really special one for me. We're
sitting down with Paul Rabel. He's not only one of
the greatest lacrosse players of all time, but he's also
a trailblazing entrepreneur who has completely reshaped the sport. If
you're new here, this podcast is all about inspiring conversations
that start with movement, because we believe movement opens people

(00:26):
up in ways nothing else does. And today we kicked
things off with a run through the streets of New
York before sitting down to talk. This episode means a
lot to me personally. I grew up in North Jersey
in a lacrosse focused family, and some of my fondest
memories growing up are training in the backyard for hours
on end with my brothers and my dad and my mom.
Both of my brothers went on to play Division one

(00:47):
lacrosse at Yale and they won a national championship together.
So this sport was a huge part of my life.
But I did end up tearing my ACL twice in
back to pack years, which forced me to walk away
from the sport, but I never stopped being a fan
Paul was one of the first athletes I ever looked
up to, and getting to share this conversation with him
about resilience, reinvention, and building something that last felt like

(01:09):
a full circle moment. In this episode, we talk about
his early life, what drove him to become the best
in the world, how he built the PLL from scratch
with his brother, and what keeps him pushing forward even
after retirement from the game. Before we dive in, just
a quick ask if Post Run High has been meaningful
to you, It would mean a lot if you left
us a review or shared this episode with a friend.

(01:30):
All right, let's get our post Run High going. Paul Rabel,
Welcome to Post Run High.

Speaker 2 (01:44):
I'm so happy to be here. What a great run.

Speaker 1 (01:46):
We just had such a great run.

Speaker 2 (01:50):
If I want to take a nap or if I
want to talk, is.

Speaker 1 (01:52):
Your post Run High going or would you rather post
run rot Right now.

Speaker 2 (01:56):
Post Run High, let's discuss.

Speaker 1 (01:58):
So Paul and I ran about a mile in Brooklyn.
It's yeah, maybe, actually you know what I actually think.
So for when you first started walking, not to call
out Paul for walking, No, I'm just kidding. When we
first started walking and I had to fix my hair
that was probably about a mile. So I feel like
we did like one point seven.

Speaker 2 (02:16):
Jimmy, what do you think? Two over under? One point
one point five? Hey, I'll take it one point five.
I wanted to lift mm hm, and you wanted to run,
and I'm your guests that we're going to run.

Speaker 1 (02:27):
So this podcast theme is all about movement, So let's
first talk a little bit about physically. What does movement
look like in your life right now? Oh?

Speaker 2 (02:36):
Well, I wish I was doing more of it, if
I'm being honest, because I'm working seven days a week
with the Poll because we're in season now and it's
wall to wall, so I intentionally put my phone on
Do not Disturbed when I wake up in the morning
to get lemon juice and alcalize and make a coffee
and try to read a chapter of a book before
the inevitable storm comes, which is you know, league team players, marketing, sponsorship,

(03:02):
ticket sales, venue travel, and that comes with the territory.
So I feel really blessed to be able to do
that on a day to day. But what's been challenging
is not being able to train and use my body
the way that I did for twenty eight years while
I was playing, and then fourteen years professionally. Is I
honestly feel like I communicate and I flow through physical activity.

(03:25):
I love sport, I love lifting it, and I love
running and sprinting. So I have to fix that admittedly,
but it is We're built to move.

Speaker 1 (03:36):
I feel like the hardest part of being an athlete
that has played at the level that you've played at
is you love sports so much and moving your body,
but the wear and tear on your body is so
incredible when you play at that level totally, and it
does not set you up for success later in life
after you stop playing, because your body has I mean,
I'm sure, just so many injuries that you're constantly nursing, and.

Speaker 2 (03:59):
Totally, I think the primary or the guarantee in sport
is that there's going to be pain, and it's about
how we persist and respond and grow from it. And
the pain can be as small as missing a shot,
can be losing a game. It can be getting injured,
it can be getting traded. All these things come and

(04:20):
they cause so much pain. But in sport you get
to respond right away, which sometimes in life and our
careers we don't so you get this immediate feedback loop
and this opportunity to first take accountability, which I think
is so important to get right, because I tried to
write about this in my book, that if you reframe

(04:43):
pain and build a relationship with it and know that
on the other side of it is going to be
the sunlight. What's important to get right is that to
get to the sun you have to take accountability, and
you have to look at yourself and understand why you
miss shot, why you lost that game, why you might
have been injured, and then you have to put in
the work to respond, and that's when your foundation enlarges.

(05:08):
And most of us when we go through pain, and
myself included early on, sulked and regretted and ruminated and
I should have done this, and you're just living in
the past. And then the other side of it again,
it's jumping into the future. So you just have to
be present. And so that that's one of so many
lessons I've learned in sport.

Speaker 1 (05:27):
When you're moving your body. Now, do you still feel
like you are constantly making yourself push through pain or
are you sometimes holding yourself accountable and being like, you
know what, Like I think I need to take a
little bit of a reset right now.

Speaker 2 (05:41):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean I think I think that
you know, in life, we evolve, and when I was
an athlete, it was very much about improvement and being
the best version of myself physically and mentally on the
field such that the team could win. Now that I'm retired,
I have to evolve that mindset into what is my routine,

(06:03):
what is my work ethic, what is my best version
to help the team win? Now it's probably more intellectual now,
and it's more soft skills like management and patience and motivation.
And so I wrote about this lesson I learned from
a coach when I was at a recruiting camp when
I was in eighth grade, and he asked a pool

(06:25):
of lacrosse players who wanted to be great that question,
who wants to play at the next level? Who wants
to get a scholarship? Raise your hand? We all did,
and he goes, I'll tell you how you can do that.
You have to shoot one hundred shot to day, and
if you do that from this day forward through your
senior year in high school, I guarantee you'll get a
scholarship to the Division one program. Of your choice, and
that felt really attainable. Then he said, but here's the

(06:49):
caveat you can't miss a day, and that's so easy
to do in life because of holidays or weather or injury,
and you have to find a way in the cross.
There aren't very many goals if you especially if you
live in the middle of the country on the coast.
You be able to find some at local park and
reck fields. But I used to make goals and I'd
shoot against a fence at a backstop of a baseball

(07:11):
park and always find a way. And so stringing that
along into what I do, now, what are my hundred shots? Like,
It's not going out on the field and shooting one
hundred shots against the net. That's not helping me grow
the poll or write a book or produce a show.
So figuring out those one hundred shots, I'm sure you

(07:32):
have a version of that in your career.

Speaker 1 (07:34):
The coolest thing about movement is when people think of
it in the literal sense. They think about the physical activity,
which we just did, right we went for a run.
And then I think about movement mentally, emotionally and really
movement on this pursuit of greatness and you've been. Your
career in life has been such a testament to the
power of just keeping going and the success that you've

(07:57):
been able to achieve through doing that. So I would
love to start this podcast off by just going back
to the beginnings of who Paul was and where he
grew up and where you know you got your start.

Speaker 2 (08:09):
Sure, So, I grew up in a neighborhood called Whetstone
and Montgomery Village of Maryland, and I have an older
brother and younger sister and two amazing parents who never
pushed us to high achieve I never thought about really
like what success meant. They were very spiritual people who
cared about family and exploring passions, and so for us

(08:35):
in a household where my dad grew up playing basketball,
it was always like exploring different sports. I did some theater,
I played some music, but ultimately sport was felt like
my calling. So I played soccer or basketball, played a
little bit of baseball, a little bit of football, track
and field, swimming, and that was such a I'm so
grateful for that because I think today a lot of

(08:56):
kids in sports, they're being pushed and pressurized to be great,
and what has to happen first because I told you
that story about in eighth grade, but I started playing
in six What has to happened first is you have
to have fun and you have to explore, you know,
the movement and the love for what you do. And
I stumbled on lacrosse somewhat later because my neighbor gave

(09:18):
me a backup stick and he was my best friend.
So I went on on the team, and I really
struggled with it, but that pursuit of learning a new skill,
and you know, with the help of my mom, who
would drag me to practice because I actually at the
time is really mature and hated that I wasn't good
at it, and then I was failing at it, so

(09:38):
she pushed me along. And then at some point you
reach that tipping point and you acquire a new skill,
and then you're going to find out if you love
it or not. And I found out pretty quickly that
I loved lacrosse, and that carried me through most of
my life. And lacrosse now is giving me an education,
it's giving me relationships, it's given me opportunity far more
than I ever could have imagined.

Speaker 1 (09:58):
It's crazy to see everything unfold and I'm excited to
unpack it today and really tell your story, because it's
just amazing everything you've been able to do yourself in
the sport and now what you're doing for the sport
and beyond and the other passions that you're pursuing, and
it's just really it's so interesting and just like a
testament to you. I grew up playing lacrosse, right. I

(10:19):
grew up in Burton County, New Jersey. Lacrosse was like
the sport there, and I have two brothers that played
lacrosse at Yale. They won a national championship. And growing
up playing travel sports, I knew that Maryland was obviously
super competitive. Like whenever we would have our club tournaments
and play against the girls in Maryland, we knew it
was going to be a tough game. So for you
to come in and start playing at what twelve years old,

(10:42):
when you're in sixth grade, what was it like starting
to play alongside some of these other players that had
been playing with their parents who also played lacrosse right
until starting at maybe six or seven.

Speaker 2 (10:55):
Yeah, it's a good question because there's this titleist performance.
Since to study that, say, as the kids stop playing
sport or they quit for three reasons. One they're not
having fun, two the skill is too difficult, and three
as they're outsized because kids grow at all different sizes
at different speeds, and a lot of times you're lumped
in a team based on your age, but you may

(11:16):
have a guy who's so much bigger than you get
pushed over and not having fun. You quit. So entering
a sport being behind at the skill level of most
of the kids around my team, I could have turned
over and quit, and that's why I brought up my mom.
She kept me in it. And then I use my
mind and creativity, you know. I think about work ethic
for pro athletes quite a bit, and sort of like

(11:38):
the monotony and lacrosse. You probably notice, like hitting the wall,
just pass against the wall for hundreds and hundreds of
reps a day and then taking the same shot over
and over and over again. And if you look at
a good piece of scripted or unscripted sports content on
Netflix or ESPN plus whatever it is, these stories do
everything but really tell what's actually going on, which is

(12:00):
visually boring. The athlete going to the gym every day,
bench pressing, squatting, passing against the wall, I mean thousands
and thousands of times. So what they do is you
tell the narrative about the person and things that they
do away from the field, drive to survive, et cetera.
So I use my creativity to get out on the
practice field to try to improve and catch up to

(12:22):
my peers and a shorter amount of time that it
took them to get the skill that they were out
at that moment. And I noticed in hindsight that I
would just practice differently and I sort of use the
wall as a canvas. My mom was an art teacher,
and I loved the idea. She told me to sort
of explore painting outside the lines. And a player now,

(12:43):
for example, I think he does that in the NBA
is Kyrie Irving. He's in the same rules, on the
same size core as everyone, but he just kind of
flows differently. And that was that was a secret of mine,
is trying to, you know, paint outside the lines, within
the discipline and the consistency of working every day, and

(13:05):
that's what helped me close the gap.

Speaker 1 (13:07):
I love knowing that you have such a creative mind
also in how you see the world. And it's interesting
knowing that your mom was an art teacher, like I
definitely had more of a creative brain that I had
like a math and science type of brain. And when
I think back to to like when I was playing
lacrosse or playing basketball, whatever the sport was, I always
felt like I could see the field or see the
court very well. And obviously I played at such a

(13:29):
different type of level than you was so recreational. But
I'm wondering, like, do you think having this creative mind
that you definitely operate in right, Like you're a storyteller,
you're a writer, you're a producer. Do you think that
helped you in lacrosse? Yeah, let's paint that picture.

Speaker 2 (13:42):
Yeah. I mean even today with the poll, I think
most of what I do is think about the art
of storytelling. And I remember when we were raising money,
we went to this investor and owner of the Golden
State Warriors and he owned some casinos and amazing entrepreneur
that was grew up playing lacross and Peter Gruber. And
I remember telling Peter when we were pitching him on

(14:03):
how we could make pro lacrosse great?

Speaker 1 (14:07):
Was it?

Speaker 2 (14:08):
Sports is entertainment? It's a finsic managed to say about
WWE and I studied the WWE growing up, and I'm like, oh, yeah,
they tell these great stories. It's like it's like Shakespeare,
except you know, in a ring and Peter goes, no,
it's not entertainment, it's show business. And it changed my
mind because I was like, holy shit, like it's actually
bigger than just entertaining. In media, there's all different means

(14:30):
of where at the time sports wasn't but it is
today where you see scripted and unscripted television, film, documentaries,
doc series, books, podcasts, social media, live events with your
network partner, and it's about how you can invite the

(14:50):
viewer on any size screen, any given moment, into the
game through the narrative of the players, the stakes, the suspense,
the surprise, sometimes the comedy, and then at the end
you know that it's the best form of content because
the ending hasn't been written yet, so you're like, fuck,

(15:11):
what's gonna happen? And that's what makes sports so compelling
for a viewer and why I think it's the last
standing firewall for a pointment watching television and advertising. So
I'm blessed and really lucky that I had a creative
mom and a creative dad, and you know that when
I was playing lacrosse, we didn't have a network partner,
so people couldn't watch the games unless they subscribe to

(15:34):
Lack Sports Network at the time. And so I then
got into social media to tell the story of what
a professional lacrosse player was doing during a day to day,
a week to week basis, what it meant to compete
and win and lose. And I launched a YouTube channel,
then I launched a podcast, and it was like, Oh,
for someone who's not classically trained in storytelling, that's an advantage. Sometimes.

(15:59):
I try to carry that with me every day.

Speaker 1 (16:01):
One of the things that I wanted to talk to
you about was the content strategy. So it is so
cool hearing what you just said. And it seems like
when you were creating content about yourself as an athlete,
showing like what a lacrosse player's life is like on
the field off the field, and you are such a
good content creator. Did you know in the back of
your head, I'm educating people on this sport more so

(16:23):
than like just showing myself.

Speaker 2 (16:25):
Yeah, I think there's a difference between self promotion and
telling someone about your passion or what you love to do.
And the creator economy, and whether you're an influencer, you're
athlete or an entertainer, author in the middle of it,
whatever it is. As long as authentically you're telling your

(16:45):
audience or an audience something that you love to do,
that you genuinely care about, then that unlocks the freedom
too for me publish. And there have been plenty of
times where because of sort of the zeitgeist of attention
and fame and all this, where you start like self

(17:05):
criticizing and maybe go down the path of publishing something
that doesn't feel right, feels a little grabby, feels a
little breathy, and you know immediately when it gets published
you can fill it in your gut anyway. It might
go archive it or whatever, but you're like, that wasn't right.
But it takes reps, just like sport, it's like podcasting
to figure that out. And there's a lot of paralysis,

(17:28):
I think today and now, like what was new media
for me? And I was an early adopter because when
I graduated from Hopkins in two thousand and eight, Instagram
hadn't launched yet, and Facebook just rolled out fan pages,
and Twitter came out two years later, and YouTube was
full of cat videos. It was it was just it
was different, and so I never got on social personally.

(17:48):
I got on always professionally. My friends in the next
generation they've adopted social personally, and then if they get
to a place where they want to build a career
around it, there's friction, you know, because everyone's out to
make fun of each other and a lot of ways
these social platforms like aggregate trolls and negative commentary and
stuff like that. So really, I say all that because

(18:10):
you're finding your core as a creator or a manifestor
and sharing what it is that you care about is
all that matters.

Speaker 1 (18:30):
I know we're gonna have a lot of parents listening
to this, So hey, parents listening, Let's talk about your
journey to Hopkins. You go from twelve years old starting
to play lacrosse. Four years later, you're making the varsity
team at your public school. You eventually transferred to a
private school that excelled in athletics. Right, what was the
high school that you transferred into and what was the
reason that you went there and how did that kind

(18:51):
of like sharpen you athletically.

Speaker 2 (18:52):
Well, I went to a private school that my mom
taught at in Montgomery Village all the way through eighth grade,
and then I couldn't wait to go to public school
and like spend time with my neighborhood friends. And I
was on the lacrosse team at the time, and our
coach was the assistant basketball coach, and then he'd missed
some practices. My brother was on the team, so a

(19:13):
lot of our spring practices were sort of captain's practices. Anyway,
and I was starting to excel at the game, and
there was a coach that came to me that inevitably
became my next high school coach that said asked me,
do you think you played college lacrosse? And that moment,
I thought I think I could. So I went and
had a conversation with my parents and we consulted around

(19:36):
like the best path forward. So I ended up transferring
to Damatha, which is sort of the lowest priced private
school in the state of Maryland, and I was given
an athletic scholarship, and in a way, I went in
my sophomore year and I felt like I was twelve
years old again playing lacrosse for the first time, where

(19:56):
the team was so good and I wasn't going to
start and they had eleven Division One recruits, and I
just went back to the wall in that canvas and
envisioned sort of the motor skills of Andy Gallagher and
Billy Looney and Keigan Wilkinson and like the star offensive
players on that to Maatha team at the time, and

(20:17):
I tried to emulate it. And I just worked and
worked and worked and worked, and then by the time
the spring came around, I was starting on the midfield
and then I progressed. So that was my story and transferring.
It was a really hard decision, and I find the
hardest decisions in life are ones that aren't very clear.
You know, I probably could have played college lacrosse had

(20:39):
I stayed at Wakins Mill, and it's likely that I
could be sitting here with you today had I stayed there.
And I also am pleased with the decision that I made.
I had another decision like that in college, and then
I had another decision like that in pro and leaving
a job that I had to try to become full
time in lacrosse. I had another decision like that in
my relationship. I was once married and then I went
through a divorce, and there's as humans, we want definitive answers,

(21:07):
and they're not there. So the more in tune we
can be with our instincts, the better our inner circle
is of friends and advice. We can get more open
we are to feedback and then ultimately just being decisive.
And there's a saying that Jeff Bezos has which is
disagree and commit, and that doesn't often happen even at

(21:28):
the PLL where we disagree and commit, but it gives
you license to be like, Okay, what's most important is
you commit to a decision and you see it through
and you let go of any hindsight Monday morning quarterback,
any regret, and on the other side of it, there's
no blame. It's not healthy to go back and be like,
you know, if de matha didn't work for me, to

(21:49):
go back and be like mom, dad. You know, you
guys said this. You told me it was a good idea.
That doesn't do anyone any service disagree, commit or agree
and commit or decide quickly commit it.

Speaker 1 (22:00):
I mean, what's so cool too about you is like
there's so many kids like you said before, I love it.
You know what, You're such a good We put guys
the way the way Paul will like answer a question
and then go off in this like really eloquent direction
and then kind of come back to if you're like okay,
so Danatha, right, you know it's amazing. I mean it
makes sense why you're us.

Speaker 2 (22:21):
The segment TV is not you could.

Speaker 1 (22:24):
Get into segment TV. But what I'm hearing from you
is like this obsession, right, And I think, what's so cool?
And I get obsessed with things too, And obviously you
took it to a whole other level. So I don't
want to compare myself at all. But growing up, I
was the type of kid that my mom would literally
give us drills in the backyard to do every single day,

(22:45):
and I loved playing wallball, and like my favorite memories
are being in the backyard with my dad playing lacrosse,
learning how to do the rocker step. With the rocker
step your your step.

Speaker 2 (22:55):
I stepped rockerly, do you know what I'm talking about?

Speaker 1 (22:58):
Where you kind of like go.

Speaker 2 (23:00):
I actually did it out of the midfield where I was.
You know, typically a rocker step is for an attack
man when you're coming around the bench and then you
rocker and get the defender lean in the direction that
you hesitated and then you come around and shoot, and
I would actually carry up top and rocker and keep
going down the alley and shoot.

Speaker 1 (23:14):
So yes, And the amount of times I think it
was was it you that started that? No, no, I don't.
I forget who it was.

Speaker 2 (23:20):
I can really take credit for any move. Maybe a
swim move, yeah, maybe like a really you know, very
fundamental off hip shot on the run down the alley. Yeah,
I like to swim, maybe because I swam growing up.

Speaker 1 (23:33):
Well, I joke. So the amount of times my dad
practiced the rocker step behind the goal and like actually
in my highlight tip that you guys can see on YouTube,
there's a video of me doing it, and it was
just the coolest feeling ever, actually, like nailing it. Isn't
that the best feeling when you're younger and you practice
something over and over and over again in your backyard
and then you do it in a game in your life.

Speaker 2 (23:50):
It felt like an hour ago when I was thinking
about how do I help Kate Cold open this, I'm
gonna say I want to lift and then I'm going
to down to do a race and I'm going to
try to fooler and get ahead, start and.

Speaker 1 (24:04):
You nailed it.

Speaker 2 (24:05):
Felt good, Yeah, felt good.

Speaker 1 (24:07):
First first first try. The first try is always the
best for sure.

Speaker 2 (24:10):
Always.

Speaker 1 (24:11):
But I want to talk about this idea of obsession
because we talked about this earlier on, like when a
lot of kids signed up for sports. It's like when
you started in lacrosse, you were like, I want to
do what my friends are doing. My neighbor gave me
the stick, he's playing lacrosse. I should play lacrosse. I
want to be with my friends, socialized, whatever. But you
got to the point where you were like, I want
to get so good at this that I'm playing like
the top players on this team. So when you're a

(24:32):
sophomore in high school, like what was your north star?

Speaker 2 (24:36):
I mean it's a great question because you were also
asking I think I like sort of weaved around it
like advice to parents and things of that nature. And
so parents that are listening that have a son or
daughter that's playing a sport or in the arts or
what have you, if you want them to excel, you know,
first check yourself like is this you living out your

(24:59):
life through them? Who wants to excel? Is at them?
Or is it you? And then move to I think
the most important thing. What you're asking, are they obsessed?
Do they love it? Can they not put the stick down?
And then your job is to actually penny in the
age help guide them through that obsession. So for me,

(25:19):
I was so obsessed with lacrosse that practice wasn't a thing.
And I noticed for my peers they were practicing because
their coach told them to practice. I was practicing because
I just loved lacrosse. And I would be against the
wall at night and my dad would come home from
work and he would pull to the side and turn
on his headlights so I could keep seeing and playing.

(25:40):
And that was like example of just what is a
determining factor if you're a parent, Is your kid out there?
Do they truly love it? That's one, And then number
two is take a pretty objective eye into how they're performing.
You know, like I get a lot of parents that

(26:02):
come to me and about like, hey, my son, my daughter,
they want to play Division one lacrosse, And my first
question is how are they playing now? And are they
one of the best players on their midfield line? Do
they start? Are they one of the best players on
the team when they play games? Are they one of
the best players on the field. Are they one of
the best players in the league, in the city, in

(26:22):
the state, in the country. And it's shocking how big
the delta is between desire to play Division one lacrosse
and a kid just not being ready yet to pursue
that path of being recruited. And so it's not like, Okay,
you give me all the answers. They're saying they're not

(26:43):
the best on the team or the city, or you're
the state or the country. Doesn't mean they can't be.
But your question to me should be how can they improve?
Not how can they play Division one lacrosse? Right? And
so we skip a lot of steps. So think about
where your daughter, where your son is, focus on how
they can be because recruiting is kind of like a
first date. You sort of have one shot, and so

(27:05):
you don't want to put yourself out in front of
a coach until you feel like you're at your best.
So work really hard, improved, be the best version of yourself,
and then take that and see if you want to
play at the next level.

Speaker 1 (27:17):
We both have talked to a lot of athletes. You're
an athlete yourself, greatest of all time lacrosse players.

Speaker 2 (27:21):
Right, go on.

Speaker 1 (27:25):
But I feel like that's a common thread, right, Like
I when I was interviewing Gabby Thomas, gold medalist Olympic runner, right,
she was saying to me that her favorite thing about
the sport is the training, and actually racing is the
cherry on top.

Speaker 2 (27:38):
It's an amazing mindset. And Gabby's really astute, Like she
studies the psychology of sport, and you have to be
at the absolute pinnacle of the mind and body to
play in the Olympics, because she'll train her entire life
and then within Olympics for four years for ten seconds,
you know, and like you have to have mental fortitude

(28:03):
and for for Gabby to get there, you have to
embrace the grit the training. Lebron James says the same thing.
Just fall in love with the process, not the outcome.
The games are. I had a team former TEAMOSA coach
is now the coach of the New York Atlas, and
Mike Presler when I was twenty four playing on his

(28:27):
team and starting at midfield wearing ninety nine. He would
come to me before games to go Paul script has
already written that would allow my shoulders to relax and
just go play because I would sometimes naturally, when you're
playing in a world championship for a gold medal, you're
so outcome focused. Are we gonna win a We're gonna lose?
What's the score? How am I playing minute by minute,

(28:47):
second by second? Get the fuck out of that mindset,
focus on the work.

Speaker 1 (28:52):
What does your mental prep look like? Gabby talked a
lot about visualization. What went into your mental prep.

Speaker 2 (28:57):
Before mental prep is preparation, and that's work and studying
and doing role playing, going back to the field of
creativity or thinking about scenario planning in the world of business.
But preparation isn't just about like what the task forthcoming
is for me? What does what separates I think great

(29:21):
you know artists or athletes to prepare is they also
work on what could possibly come yet unseen, and so prepare.
Then then once you have the preparation done through the
practice and the work, then it's about getting the mind right.
And Gabby references that or other great athletes, which is,

(29:41):
how do you calm the mind? How do you make
sure your body feels good? You know, all of the
hundreds of thousands of thoughts settle in before high achieving
high performance happens. So what I would do and I
spent a lot of time as a sports psychologist, guy
John Elliott, who was sports psychologists and Major League Baseball

(30:02):
in the NBA with Team USA, and he opened up
my whole routine. I used to show up at games
two hours early to mentally prepare, and then I started
showing up four and a half hours early. And the
reason why I was like, Okay, I was a captain
of my team and I was a high performer. And
to be a captain, you have to cater to your teammates.
And when they show up two hours before, that's time

(30:22):
with not time for yourself. So get there early, simple
like fundamental shift. Get their early work on yourself, go
through your physical preparation, your mindset, and then when the
team comes, you're there as a leader. So I changed
the timeframe and then what I'd do is I used
to take a pregame nap. He was like, cut the nap.
And the reason why he asked me that is do
you nap during the rest of the week. I was

(30:42):
like no, And he was like, so, whyould younap before
a game? It seems pretty risky. I was like, because
I'm nervous or whatever, and got a long time to
wait for the stop. So go for a walk, do
something you enjoy, go to cinema. And then I would
bring a notepad and I'd pack an extra lunch because
I'd be at the locker room four before. So there's
the emotionality of like what helps you as a high performer,

(31:05):
And then there's the tactics and having a good support
system therapist, sports psychologist, a teammate, a coach who can say, like, tactically,
what can we do to change this environment so you
feel better? Is important.

Speaker 1 (31:18):
You were on a podcast The Deal with Jason Kelly
and a Rod and I think you guys were talking
a little bit about sports psychology and I loved what
you and a Rod called it. You called it performance training.

Speaker 2 (31:28):
Essentially, it's about framing and we do it naturally as
humans and we don't realize that's what we're doing, but
it's so important to develop that skill. The other side
of the coin is the phrase right, So, especially when
you're faced with challenges, it's looking those challenges dead on
and understanding why, taking accountability and doing the work and

(31:50):
then you have to reframe and that's like the positive outlook,
what are we going to get out of this?

Speaker 1 (31:54):
Right?

Speaker 2 (31:55):
So the business faces a challenge. Instead of going it's
not working, you recognize that challenge to make change, and
then if the change is right, you come on the
other end and then you actually are glad that that
challenge happened. So a reframe. I joke sometimes because Martin
SCORSESEI is my favorite director, and he did The Irishman

(32:16):
and Robert de Niro totally strange comparison, said that he
paints houses and he was basically like a hitman, right,
And I often think that I work in a frame
shop and I frame pictures for a living, and that's
a good thing. You want to make sure that you're
constantly wrapping all of the challenges and life's unexpected circumstances

(32:40):
with positivity.

Speaker 1 (32:41):
Yeah, you know, my first job actually was working in
a frame shop.

Speaker 2 (32:45):
Was it look at that if you sit around with
another person long enough and you're present and you're conscious
and you connect as beans were the same. And I
believe in our psychic abilities, and I had no idea
about you that you were you know it worked at

(33:05):
a frame shop for your first job. We're kind of
in flow.

Speaker 1 (33:18):
Let's talk about recruiting. I liked on the deal how
you were saying how lacrosse now is just like fundamentally
different than it was when you were in the process
of recruiting. But why Hopkins and how did getting recruiting
there come to be? And were you considering other schools?
What was that process?

Speaker 2 (33:35):
Like, Well, Hopkins was sort of fourth or fifth on
my list of choices.

Speaker 1 (33:40):
What was number one?

Speaker 2 (33:41):
North Carolina? My dad went to the University of North Carolina.
I've had twenty two relatives that have gone through Chapel Hill,
and you know, I idolized Michael Jordan and Dean Smith
and then Bill Guthridge, and like I wanted to go
to basketball games every other night and just generally like
I went to basketball camp when I was younger. And

(34:03):
then it sort of moved through the ACC because if
you'd watched March Madness with your dad and like Carolina
gets knocked off, then you support the other ACC school.
So I looked at Virginia and then now Syracuse is
in it in the ACC, but was different than in
Maryland and Duke and then Hopkins, and I didn't like
Hopkins for a couple of reasons. It was local, and

(34:24):
I had this sort of urge as any teenager would
to go out and move somewhere else. But they had
also been the number one team in the country for
the last four years with number one classes, And the
note that I was getting from my friends and parents
and lacrosse commentators is that if you go to Hopkins,
you're gonna have to wait till your junior year to play.

(34:44):
And then I met Dave Petromala, who was my head
coach eventually my head coach, and the way that he
recruited and built relationships was extraordinary, and I just I
just cared about this man, and I aligned with what
he stood for his core values, and I felt that
he was being honest to me. I remember him cutting

(35:06):
out a newspaper clipping and whiting out the name of
the player who scored the game winning goal in the
previous year in the championship game, and wrote my name
in there. And he was telling me that I was
going to play and have an impact on the team
my freshman year, and everyone else was telling me that
he was full of shit and that they had all
these great players and he just wanted to keep stacking classes.

(35:27):
But I believed him and you know, when we would
talk on a recruiting call every week, because they could
call once a week, we'd talk for an hour some
time an hour and a half. I didn't think much
of it as a seventeen year old at a time,
but now as an almost forty year old, I look
back and like, if I'm going to call a sixteen
or seventeen year old, it's probably ten minutes maybe at best.
The hell am I going to talk about? But that's

(35:48):
how most of my recruiting calls went. I'd get a
call from Carolina and Syracuse, Virginia Duke, and we talked
for twelve minutes. And Petra was so invested in his players,
and that's why the team was so good. And I
ended up changing my entire sort of plan and they
went from number five to number one, and I decided

(36:08):
and committed, and it was the best decision I'd made.

Speaker 1 (36:12):
That's such a testament to who he was as a
person to like take it. I mean, also, he could
tell that you were going to be this rock star.
I think that was pretty clear by the time you
were junior senior in high school. So he obviously saw
something in you. But just that he gave you that
type of attention. Also, it's rare to have like those
types of role models in your life, and like when
you get to have one as your coach, it's like

(36:33):
so much more impactful. What would your advice be to,
you know, college athletes starting their freshman seasons?

Speaker 2 (36:40):
I wish I had a better answer for you, because
I don't know it, and I don't think anyone knows it,
which makes sports so fascinating. But what I believe to
be true for me is that I dream big and
I work small, and dreaming big is scary, and dreaming
big also means articulating those dreams. I think a lot

(37:02):
of those kids in the room when we were in
eighth grade had their hands up, because who doesn't want
to play Division one lacrosse on a full scholarship if
that's the sport of your choice? But what do you
do after that? Right? And there is a small, only
a small segment of people that actually have these speculative

(37:23):
ambitions to be the best. It's not for everyone, and
it's pretty lonely, and it's fucking hard and it doesn't
get easier. But if you have that dream, you might
as well embrace it and part of I think what
deters people from embracing is today's environment of social media
and the negativity and the calling out by even your

(37:45):
own peer group. But part of the path of dreaming
big is articulating that dream. And I used to tell
people I want to be the best. I used to
tell people I wanted to be a four time first
team All American and win four Street National championships. And
I didn't do either of those, but I had to
say it to stand a chance to accomplish it. And
then you tuck those dreams away and you work small,

(38:05):
and that's the hundred shot today. That's you know, sometimes
measuring yourself up against the work ethic of the senior
captain on the team, and like, are they showing up?
I'm show up earlier. I used to study Michael Jordan,
and that was his thing is he would always challenge,
at any age, the best player in the court to
a one on one after practice. And that's scary for

(38:28):
a lot of people because what's on the other side
of losing that game? You lose all your confidence. You're
not who you thought you were. People are afraid of competition,
and so you have to embrace that and that comes
with building a relationship with failure, which is inevitable, and
then just keep fucking going. And uh, that's what I did.

(38:49):
I went to Hopkins and I was told by a
lot of people I wouldn't start. Petro didn't, by the way,
did not guarantee me that I would start. He just
knew that I could contribute to the team. And I
didn't start in Game one. And then in Game three,
we were at Syracuse in the Dome, down seven to
one at halftime, and I was playing second line midfield
and he goes, Paul, You're playing first line midfield the
second half, and I scored four goals and we won

(39:11):
in overtime, and I started for the rest of my career.
So it's just being opportunistic and being hungry for it and.

Speaker 1 (39:19):
Having that confidence and knowing that you can do it,
and like being able to rise to the occasion, you know,
one hundred.

Speaker 2 (39:24):
Percent, and confidence comes from your preparation and your mindset.

Speaker 1 (39:27):
That was in two thousand and five. You were a freshman.
Right two thousand and five, Hopkins wins the national championship,
You're on the team. Pretty incredible high for a kid
that's saying I'm going to win four national championships. You're
probably thinking we're far enough strong.

Speaker 2 (39:41):
Yeah, and we're not going to lose because that year
we went undefeated as well, So it was like, Okay,
I'm going to finish my four year career undefeated in
four national didn't come close to that.

Speaker 1 (39:50):
I was at the game when it was Hopkins versus
Syracuse in the National Championship where Syracuse won. But I
have pictures of myself like in a Hopkins church here,
so I'm supporting you. Wow, isn't that crazy? We would go,
oh my, like my whole life was in those early years.
My dad would take us to all the Final four tournaments.

Speaker 2 (40:08):
Fun so fun. Ah, just a great celebration of the sport.
The Final four is.

Speaker 1 (40:12):
Yeah. Well, two thousand and five, you guys win the
national championship. You also went in two thousand and seven.
I have a few questions here. First, I want to know,
like what did the evolution of Paul look like in
those years? How did your game change? And like did
you become more of a leader on the team.

Speaker 2 (40:29):
Yeah, more and more competitive And I got my big
pop in competitive juice from Petro. He's still probably the
most competitive man I've ever been around. And then he
paired me when I was a freshman with our senior
captain and won the tourt on that year, which is
our Heisman Trophy of lacrosse, and that's Kyle Harrison. Even

(40:49):
on my recruiting visit, I stayed with him as a junior,
and typically on recruiting visits you stay with freshmen. So
Petro always put me to that standard. And I remember
even in the off season doing Brent's next to Kyle,
lifting with Kyle, and then I was playing with Kyle.
So when Kyle graduated, I was like, Okay, I gotta
be Kyle. And that was a shift in leadership because

(41:12):
as a freshman on a team you can just play,
and as a sophomore and now thwarted in the position
of best on the team, you need to lead. And
that was a struggle. And I still feel like leadership
is today and no one ever gets it right. You
just it's a journey, and so you learn different things

(41:32):
along the way. And I would say a difference between
college and then as I got into pro and now
as an entrepreneur and the stuff that I do today,
my temperament has shifted each time in college, it was
very much like high demanding of teammates at all costs,
and that was pretty ruthless, and that carried on through

(41:54):
probably my three or first four years in the pros
where you know, I'd fight teammates in practice sometimes if
they weren't meeting my expectations and what I knew as
someone who experienced success early because of others, it took
to be great, so the standards really high. Go back
to Michael Jordan, like trying to emulate him. He fought

(42:16):
teammates in practice and it was like if you weren't
at his standard, you were out, and then that wears
on you. And so like the part two of leadership
was as I got probably the middle of my pro career,
and that's when I was introduced to John Elliott as
a sports psychologist, and I shifted more towards being hyper
competitive and compassionate and understanding that not all players on

(42:41):
the team, even at the pro level. This is in
the NBA, the NFL, the pl the NHL are alphas
at one point they were, but you need even in business,
you need A players, B players, C players because if
you have a bunch of A players, no one's going
to do the b work, which is a lot of
the support work and sort of like the gritty stuff,
getting tough ground balls, taking wings of face offs, making

(43:04):
the right first pass right a lot. If you have
a bunch of a players all want the ball and
they're sick, you have one ball and six offensive players,
it's not gonna work. So a general and wider understanding
calms you down. And now, professionally, outside of playing, my
leadership I would say is is focused on being present

(43:25):
and supportive, still competitive and motivational, but you know, keeping
the moments of grabbing teammates by the collar and saying
like let's go and firing them up, because if I'm
in that position now, it means I haven't brought on
the right people at the company. And fortunately we've done

(43:45):
a good job of that, so I actually get a
lot of push from them.

Speaker 1 (43:49):
I remember being in high school and being even just
like at track practices and when I was a freshman,
I was varsity cross country, varsity track, varsity lacrosse, and
I remember my winter track season, I was doing drills
with this girl. We were doing like a running I
don't even know exercise, I guess, and I took everything
I did seriously because I didn't know any better. And

(44:09):
I remember she said something where she kind of embarrassed
me in front of like all these girls, and I
was this young girl where I just assumed everybody tried hard,
but she ended up getting kicked out of the practice
for kind of putting me down for trying hard. And
I just like the way you said it because it
was definitely a common theme for me in sports where
if people weren't trying hard enough, I would get like
frustrated because you just want people to care as much

(44:31):
as you do, and at the end of the day,
nobody's going to care.

Speaker 2 (44:34):
I heard I heard Travis Scott say this once in
an interview, but he was basically lamenting on You're going
to make fun of me for trying hard. You're gonna
make fun of me for caring. Fuck you.

Speaker 1 (44:45):
Isn't it crazy that it's a common experience though with
high achievers.

Speaker 2 (44:48):
Yeah, you will face that and ask yourself like core,
you know, core roots of integrity, that running your system
is not trying hard the way No, so as people.

Speaker 1 (45:12):
That both love UNC. I've got a fiance that went
to UNC that was like my dream school when I
was playing lacrosse. You loved unc. I've got brothers that
beat Duke in one national championship. There's just nothing better
than beating Duke.

Speaker 2 (45:23):
I mean, yeah, I guess I got a head start
with my dad because we supported Chapel Hill and the
tar Heels, and like you hated the Cameron crazies and
you just felt Duke d ok and so it's an
easy opponent to dislike. And then I grew up in Maryland,
so the Terrapins at the time with Gary Williams, they
were going against the JJ Redxs of Ward, who's a
wonderful human being and coach k is one of the

(45:46):
greatest coaches of all time in any sport.

Speaker 1 (45:48):
They're just so good at everything.

Speaker 2 (45:50):
It's just one of the things. It's like human nature.
And I it's interesting, like with all the sort of
sports psychology and therapy and all the resetting I had
to do in my life and match that with being
in the business of sport for a living, is it
actually pulled back from fandom, which is ironic given that
like Fantom is the heartbeat of what we do. But

(46:12):
I love Duke, and I love Hopkins, and I love Carolina,
and I love Maryland, and I get where everyone's coming from.

Speaker 1 (46:20):
It's just that that collegiate mindy.

Speaker 2 (46:22):
But it felt good. It felt good at the time
to kick their ass.

Speaker 1 (46:25):
Yeah, you got that's the winner mentality and you okay, Well,
after college you start playing in the MLL, But you
also had a real estate job, right, You played in
the MLL for eleven seasons before starting your own professional league.
What were the foundational or like fundamental things that were
going on in the MLL that you were like, we

(46:46):
need to change.

Speaker 2 (46:47):
Yeah, well, because I had a job in real estate,
that was like point number one as to why or
what MLL needed to change. Is like no one really
talked about it. And the fact that I was one
of the top players in the country and just coming
off national championship games and playing in front of half
a million people on TV and fifty thousand people in

(47:10):
a stadium and not thinking about professional something's wrong there.
Then you look at why I couldn't. My rookie wage
was six thousand dollars. So by the time I got
through that singular focus of college and shifted into pros
and I was drafted to play at the time for

(47:30):
the Boston cannons. I had taken this job so I
could actually have income. I moved back home with my
parents so I could focus on my practice and becoming
better against that same wall I grew up against. And
then within sort of six months and the adoption of
social media and the challenge that I was given by

(47:51):
my first agent who told me, you know, the peak
moment is behind us. It was your senior year on
that national championship stage. Let's try to get as much
three year sponsorship income as we can. YadA YadA. I
was like, okay, you're not for me. We parted ways,
and that was that challenge that I needed to be like,
all right, I'm gonna prove this wrong. And I left

(48:13):
my job in real estate and I got back to center,
which was I love this game. I want to be
the best player in the league. I want to be
the best player in the world. I want to be
one of the best players to have ever played this game.
I need to focus on it. And so the storytelling
and the creativity led to would inevitably be that income

(48:35):
that I'd lost by leaving my job, which was sponsorship dollars.
So I got to deal with under armour and then
Red Bull and GoPro, and then I switched over to
New Balance, and I was telling stories across YouTube and
Instagram and Facebook and Twitter, and then I started doing
commercials and it was an extraordinary experience. But what was

(48:56):
sort of the cloud hanging over us is as I
was growing and sort of defying the odds of what
my first agent told me, the pro game was actually
getting worse. The crowds were shrinking, and the network deal
went away, and sponsorships were minimalizing, and weirdly, participation in

(49:22):
the college game kept growing. And then I looked across
the aisle and MLS was growing and USC was growing.
Was like, why not lacrosse? Not classically trained as an entrepreneur,
didn't have my MBA. But I began scratching my head.
And my brother, who was working in Silicon Valley at
the time, was looking to potentially leave his software company

(49:43):
that he was running on the revenue side and start
something new. And we sat together and we talked about lacrosse,
and neither of us had any pro sports operating background,
but that was fuel and we had probably three years
of conversations with MLL owner, with venture capitalists, with NBA,

(50:04):
NFL commissioners and learned and we built this hypothesis that
tied wide pro lacrosse hadn't worked with why we thought
it could, and we began to quietly take that out
to market. But the ultruism behind it was in the
lesson that I was learning through leadership at that stage
of my life, which was sharing and the growth that

(50:26):
you get through numbers. And so if there were more
full time professional acrosse players that could afford to do
it like I was because of sponsorship and media, well
let's create a bigger and better platform for them to
do that and watch the sport growth.

Speaker 1 (50:39):
What I love about what you said at the beginning
of that was you were having this incredible experience personally
getting all these incredible sponsorships. Paul Rabel was becoming this
massive icon of the sport and in just athletics. But
you literally said to yourself, well, if the league itself
is dying, I don't care about my personal brand. And
I think that speaks so much to your care during

(51:00):
just how much you love the sport.

Speaker 2 (51:01):
Thank you. Yeah, And I would say, like I've transitioned
more into a host and to a curator, and I'm
still on screens, but I'd like to think that I'm
on screen articulating different messages. When I was doing it
early on, it was about, you know, me as a

(51:22):
professional lacrosse player, and the work I was doing in
lacrosse obviously permeated through whatever medium I was on because
that was what I was doing. And now on screen
talking about the POLL, the history of the sport, the
future of the sport, the Olympics, the men's and the
women's game, the stars in both of those games, and
that's that's a new sort of experience for me. And

(51:48):
I like the art of presenting and storytelling and I
hope that I'll always be fortunate enough to do it.

Speaker 1 (51:54):
When you were first starting out the PLL, would you
say your edge was that you were the best player
in the MLL and one of the best players in
the game, and so you were able to successfully recruit
people to come play for the PLL.

Speaker 2 (52:08):
Yeah, it goes back to relationships, and it's the questions
apropos to the earlier one you asked about Petro, which was,
you know, the relationship that you build are the most
important in any business, and the trust and the relationship
you abuild your audience as a creator or podcaster, an
author is more important than the content on the pages

(52:29):
or what comes through the mic. And I didn't know
that I was going to start a new league with
my brother, But what I was focused on was building good, sound,
healthy competitive relationships with my peers, my teammates, and my competitors.
And we were butt heads on the field, but there's
this level of mutual respect that you have, and because

(52:50):
I was doing it off the field, they trusted that
I could sort of meet the promises that we were
putting out to them, that we could do it with them.
And had we not had that inside or what an
investor would say, is your unfair advantage? Right? Great venture
capitalists will say they look for founders that exhibit ABC

(53:13):
and hard and soft skills, but more importantly, do they
have an unfair advantage? Otherwise you're just competing. And I
think our time, at the time, our unfair advantage was
our relationship with the players, and the Achilles heel of
the former league was that we were all under one
year contracts, so in effect, we could sign people overnight
and start a new league. Can't do that in the
NBA or the NFL. Right now, the contract terms are staggered.

(53:36):
You could start a competitive league, but you're not going
to get everyone at once, and we pretty much literally
got everyone at once. We got one hundred and forty
guys overnight.

Speaker 1 (53:48):
We just took them hundred.

Speaker 2 (53:50):
All of our contracts expired, including myself, so I was
doing it with them, which was part of the relationship.

Speaker 1 (53:54):
How did the MLL feel about the PLL. Were they like,
what the heck is going on?

Speaker 2 (54:00):
Yeah? They didn't like our.

Speaker 1 (54:01):
Best player is taking our best player.

Speaker 2 (54:03):
Yeah, they were livid. They were really pissed. But in
fairness to us, we in our original goal was to
try to build a new league with MLO. So we
went in with capital to them and said, we can
buy you, we can invest in you, here's our plan.
And understandably so I often think back of if I

(54:23):
was the investor looking at Paul and Mike Rabel coming
into the room that had no sports experience, that had capital,
that said they could build a better mouse trap, I
would have said too risky, they don't know.

Speaker 1 (54:33):
I'd say no, not the mouse trap analogy?

Speaker 2 (54:36):
Yeah, yeah, And so it was sort of like that.
That was the mindset, So I get it, but I
was pissed, and you know, sort of the more you know,
the more you don't. Was the was the unveil of like, Okay,
they told us no, they told us now again, they
told us no a third time. But each of those times,
we've learned more and what else can we learn and

(54:57):
let's go out and explore. And we got to that
place pretty quickly. That's why our business model shifted too.
And we were learning from why MLL failed. We weren't
just blaming, you know, they just don't know what they're doing. No,
we were learning what the audience wanted, how small the
audience was, what we could do differently, and we were
presenting that all in stealth mode, is what an entrepreneur

(55:17):
would say, because in an industry that's really public facing,
like sports, you can get competitive and litigious and like
really difficult, so you have to do things quietly. And
it's like when the Baltimore Colts moved out of Maryland,
it was overnight, and so that's what it felt like
with the PLL. We kind of pulled the players overnight

(55:38):
and we were all under nda and then it happened
and everyone said we're going to fail. And we kept.

Speaker 1 (55:43):
Building and You're not just a former lacrosse player and
the best lacrosse player of all time. The future of
the sport is in your hands. Do you feel that pressure?

Speaker 2 (56:00):
Pressure? I feel pressure, and I think it's because I
care so much about the game and I realize that
I'm really fortunate to be in a leadership position to
actually impact change. And so the pressure is are we
doing the right things? Are we taking the right bets?
Are we being measured? Are we also being ambitious? Are

(56:21):
we doing this with integrity? Are we communicating with everyone?
Does everyone feel seen? Cross players to casual fans that
were bringing in a lot of pressure. But then I
tell myself and remind myself that this game was a
gift from the creator. It was built in spirituality. It
was known as the medicine game. The harder you play,

(56:42):
the greater the medicine. It was used to solve conflict,
and then it was used in exhibition where the people
from the Anadoga nation called it de honti quajis, which
means they bump hips. Turton in mohawk means little brother
of war and bigataway is another name for lacrosse. It's

(57:02):
called the net game, so which within each of those
original names of the sport that we played today called
lacrosse is a different intent, and so you can calm
your nerves if you ever feel pressure in whatever it
is you do, by thinking about the history and those
who came before you, and how fortunate we are to

(57:23):
be where we are today.

Speaker 1 (57:24):
I think there's like a common thread thread with successful people,
especially ones that I've interviewed, like yourself, where it's like,
even in the face of hard times where people are
telling you no, the people that come out on top
and succeed are the ones that just keep going. And
you and your brother just kept going, learning along the way,
and now you could literally do anything. In twenty twenty,
the PLL and the MLL ended up merging. Was that

(57:46):
an emotional experience.

Speaker 2 (57:47):
It was, it was and it was really important. So
we ended up turning around and merging with Major League
Lacrosse in twenty twenty after sort of the bubble seasons
of playing during the pandemic, and that helped resolve the
conflict that existed within lacrosse fans and the zeitgeist of lacrosse.
It also gave us at the time twenty years of

(58:11):
pro lacrosse history to bolt onto our broadcast and begin
telling stories and consolidating stats of players who've done both
and players who retired. You never have to play in
the PL. So we announced the Professional Lacrosse Hall of
Fame for the first time where we could recognize those
first players in two thousand and two thousand and one,
and that was so important and something that I'm really

(58:35):
grateful for.

Speaker 1 (58:35):
Yeah, it's amazing to be able to merge a new
league with the history of an old league and just
the commonality of everybody loves the sport. So it's like,
you want the sport to win. Where do you see
lacrosse going? Like, what is the future of the sport
in your mind?

Speaker 2 (58:50):
Well, I want, speaking of dreaming big, I want to
be a top five team sports league in North America.
And so we all know the Big four, the NBA,
the NFL, the NHL in Major League Baseball, and then
you have MLS. Then you have like individual sports like
the UFC. You have the emergence of the WNBA and
a team sports side in the NWSL and super competitive.

(59:13):
But you have to set those big dreams and they
have to work small. For me, you know, I look
at other ways to grow. I call them third doors,
but getting lacrosse back into the Olympics is going to
be really advantageous for the sports growth. Getting a documentary
done on the PLL called Fate of a Sport, writing
a book called The Way of the Champion, doing a
series right now with ESPN called Rabeles Places, I'm working

(59:34):
on a motion picture. And then the last third door
i'd say is like participation, so access, getting more sticks
in hands and goals on field, and you do that
through a nonprofit approach, you can through it through public lobbying.
Right now, there's twenty eight states, Nevada being the most
recent that sanctioned high school boys and girls across which

(59:56):
gets us our equipment. So we talked about when we
were running such as we can can try and play
and fall in love before we buy. So I'm going
to flip the other twenty two states, and that takes
a lot of public and lobbying efforts. Those things actually
help the PLL and the WL grow, and I anticipate

(01:00:17):
over the next three to four years us bringing on
owners of teams that in building stadiums or inhabiting existing stadiums.
Continuing with our network partner in ESPN and growing the
visibility of the sport and all of that you got
to get right. So it is really like trying to

(01:00:39):
boil the ocean. But we have an amazing team, We
have a great mission, we have company values that are
core and align with us as individuals, and yeah, I
think we're going to do it.

Speaker 1 (01:00:51):
I think you're going to do it too. I'm a
big fan of the sport. I come through from a
lacrosse family. My dad didn't play lacrosse growing up, my
mom didn't play lacrosse, but they just fell in love
with it. My dad still goes to a lot of
the college games. He loves going to the Final four tournament.
I mean, he's just such a fan. He wears his
Yello cross polo proudly, and he's very involved with this
organization called Harlem Lacrosse. So for people that and parents

(01:01:13):
out there that love the sport not only for their kids,
but also just for future generations, what can we be
doing to continue educating people on the sport and making
it more accessible.

Speaker 2 (01:01:24):
It's a great question. I would say two things, because
at a high level, I would love this to tell
people give him instructions or manuals. But like, I'm lucky
enough to be paid to work alongside great people whose
responsibility is to grow the PLLWL in the game at large,
and that takes a lot of work and resilience. So

(01:01:49):
if people do want to chip in, like your dad
and like yourself, I would say two things. One sort
of metaphorically that helped me is that give your backup
stick to someone who's never played before, like my neighbor
did to me, introduce him to the game. It could
be through a stick, it could be through watch, telling

(01:02:10):
them to watch the poll, bringing them to a game.
And then the other thing I would say would would
be to invest in the community. Invest in your community.
And if you're a parent and you want to, you know,
be an assistant coach or volunteer coach. You know my
dad did that. My dad was our swimming coach, our
basketball coach, our soccer coach, and sort of touch lacrosse

(01:02:34):
not still still learning the rules now he'll get mad
at me for that.

Speaker 1 (01:02:38):
But didn't he send you an email before like all
of your games.

Speaker 2 (01:02:41):
Every single game. He was just an amazing man.

Speaker 1 (01:02:44):
I would literally have those framed yeah, in my hallway
in my home.

Speaker 2 (01:02:47):
Oh so good. Yeah, he would. He would write me
an email all the way through my pro career, so
college and pro before every game and give me, you know,
insights and his thoughts, and he would be nervous and
then he'd say a prayer at the end of the email.
So yeah, I would say, give your backup, stick to
a friend, watch the PLL, watch the WL, and contribute

(01:03:12):
to the community.

Speaker 1 (01:03:23):
You're a writer, your producer, You're working on so much
even outside of just lacrosse. So five, ten, twenty years
from now, where do you want to be and what
do you want your legacy to be.

Speaker 2 (01:03:34):
I want to keep storytelling and I want to keep
trying new things. And so twenty years from now, I
hope to still be involved in the PL and the WL.
I hope that it is a top sport in America
that's continually played in the Olympics. And I hope that

(01:03:54):
I am also going to be venturing into new things
that are big and scary, like directing, producing, writing more.
But ultimately kind of going back to what my parents
did for me, is be spiritual and care about family.
So be a good partner, be a good father. That

(01:04:17):
is that's our legacy. If there is a legacy that
we can leave.

Speaker 1 (01:04:21):
I have to tell you this really quickly as we
wrap up. When I was in sixth grade, I wrote
a letter to myself. It was an assignment my teacher
had us do. And in the letter we wrote where
we see ourselves in ten fifteen years. And in that
letter I wrote, I said, you know, you're going to
be a D one lacrosse player and you're going to
be on the cover of Lax magazine standing next to

(01:04:42):
your two brothers right now. That did not happen. Obviously,
my life took me in a different direction. But I
do have to say I am sitting in front of,
proudly in front of one of the best, if not
the best lacrosse player of all time, and I just
have to say, I think my twelve your old self
is freaking out right now.

Speaker 2 (01:05:01):
Oh you're so sweet. You're so sweet. And I had
a similar experience when I was twelve, but I don't
want to He's like.

Speaker 1 (01:05:11):
But I did go on the cover of Black Sun.

Speaker 2 (01:05:13):
No, no, no, it was different. I actually in art
class we were doing portraits and I decided to go
more abstract, and I drew myself as a WWE Superstar
with the People's eyebrow of the Rock because I was
obsessed with and I wanted to meet the Rock, and
when I met the Rock, that felt like manifestation. So

(01:05:35):
is such a powerful thing. I appreciate you saying that,
and I would respond by saying, you're doing far bigger
and greater things, and it's been really fun to spend
time together and watch you continue to do what you do.

Speaker 1 (01:05:48):
That's a wrap on today's episode. Huge, thank you for
listening all the way through. If this conversation resonated with you,
it would mean a lot if you took a moment
to rate and review our show and share it with
a friend. Also, don't forget to subscribe to our YouTube
channel at kate max, where you can watch all the
video versions of our episodes, and lastly, follow the show
at post run High and me at Kate max on

(01:06:10):
Instagram to stay up to date on everything we've got
going on. We've got so many more incredible guests and
powerful stories coming your way. So I'll see you guys
next week.