September 22, 2025 • 38 mins
Christina Tosi joins us for an open conversation about discovering her passion for cooking and baking, and the journey that led to the creation of Milk Bar. She shares how a love for cookie dough turned into a lifelong career, the challenges of starting a bakery from scratch, and the lessons learned during her early years in NYC kitchens. Christina reflects on the creative process, building a brand, and the persistence required to turn an idea into a business. From the joys of dessert to advice on resilience, this interview offers an authentic and behind-the-scenes look at Christina Tosi’s life, work, and the story behind Milk Bar.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hi, guys, welcome back to Post Run.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Hi. I am so excited to get into today's episode
with Christina TAUSI. If you guys don't know, Christina is
the founder of Milk Bar, and Milk Bar is an
iconic bakery here in New York City. She is one
impressive woman and I am just so excited for you
guys to get to know her. This is going to
be a little bit of a short episode, and that's
just because Christina had around twenty five to thirty minutes
(00:28):
with us after our run to sit down and do
this podcast. And if you like founder stories, especially female
founder stories, then I think you're gonna love today's episode.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
So excited for you guys to listen to it.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Let's get into today's episode with Christina.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Christina, welcome to Post.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
Her and high my gosh, I'm feeling amazing.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Well, I'm so excited to have you here, guys.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Christina and I just ran a couple miles in Williamsburg
and we ended at her infamous Milk Bar location there
in Williamsburg.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
There's like no greater feeling than going on a run
and then eating cookies and then being like cool, let's
just hang out in some lounge chairs and talk about life. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Well, you know, it's so funny. I've been telling you
this since we've met this morning. I've been a fan
of Milk Bar for so many years. You guys, you
started Milk Bar in two thousand and eight. It's so
impressive what you've built. And I love knowing that you're
a long distance runner.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
That's something I never knew, and I feel like I
wish I had known.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
Can I just say about long distance runners? When you
found another long distance runner, You're like, I can see
into your soul. I get you. Thank you for you,
and also we're gonna be connected forever because we're both
crazy enough to love the same thing.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
It's like, now I know why you're so successful.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
I still have you ever met?
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Truly. I mean one of my things is like I
wish I could ask in the interview process if people
were long distance runners, because a long distance runner is
the greatest hire you could ever make, because they have
kind of like the infinite game mindset and they just
you just never stop, You never say die, Like it's
not There's something about the longevity of going after something
(02:17):
you love and being able to live in discomfort because
you're here for the journey of it, You're here to
get somewhere. But also on long distance running, there's never
really a finish line. You're you're just obsessing over your
next long run.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
It's so true, and I feel like that shows up
so much in what you've built at Milk Bar and
how you guys have over the years continued to innovate
and guys, just a little preface, were doing a little
bit of a shorter episode today because Christina is going
back because she has an hour and a half long
tasting after this.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
We have so many great ideas on the bench in
Milk Bar. This is it's like the agony and the
ecstasy of it. We go at all of these different ideas,
whether like their flavors, store ideas, or format ideas, or
partnerships that we're working on, or because you just never
know how long it's going to take to nail a recipe.
(03:09):
That's the best part of baking and the hardest part
of baking. I think you just never know. You know
when it's done. We sort of have this like if
we're not obsessed with it, we can't expect you to be.
But you just don't know how long the process is
gonna take. And every week we do like an hour
and a half long dessert tasting, which is like so brilliant,
and you also for me, I have to remember to
(03:30):
paste myself because I love dessert so much. An hour
and I'm like, wait, we still have thirty more minutes
of things to taste, to tinker. And then it becomes
a little bit of this, like you want to make
sure your palette is bright and fresh and in the
right mindset. But it's also great to be a long
distance runner because there's always room for more dessert.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Yeah, it's so true.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
And I can't even imagine being in your tastings because guys,
today after our run, we sat and we had five
cookies was it? Five different cookie options? And I started
with the chocolage of cookie. If you guys know, you
know I love chocolate chip cookies. And after I had
the original gooey chocolatechip cookie, I was like, how could
it get better than this? And then every single one
after that, I was like, wait, was this better than
(04:11):
the chocolate chip cookie? So I can't imagine in your tastings,
because truly it must be like one great thing after
the next it's fun. What flavors are we hyper fixating on?
Speaker 3 (04:20):
Right now? We're going into the holiday season, which I
actually think is the hardest season to create and innovate
for because we are so conditioned to think about food
and nostalgia through the holiday season, Like it's fall, so
it must be apple or pumpkin or cinnamon or spice. Right, Okay,
(04:45):
it's like the Christmassy December era. Okay, it's gingerbread, it's eggnog,
it's peppermint, it's chocolate. We don't it's really actually hard
to get people out of those flavor boxes. So then
it becomes more of a challenge to go, Okay, what
haven't we thought of? What haven't we created? A little
bit like backing ourselves into a corner with these air
(05:06):
quoting because I do love these flavors, limited flavors of
the seasons. But that's really that also makes the job
really fun. But we're like hyper fixated in the fall
winter of it, and then we're also hilariously it's almost
like running a magazine where you're like, we're fixating on
Valentine's Day even though it is early fall at best
(05:28):
right now, Like we sweat a little bit. We switzed
a little bit outside on our run, you know, and
I'm already thinking like, okay, how do we really think
about like Valentine's Day in the right ways? But it's fun.
You get to think about, like what flavors is will
my future self and Kate's future self and everyone's future self,
what will we be excited about? What will we be
(05:49):
curious about? What will we want to like get up
and race out for dessert or race to order dessert
online to arrive at my doorstep? What will that be?
And that's really that's fun part of.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
The job to Yeah, it's like choose your own adventure.
You know what I was getting excited about as I
was walking through. We were at your storefront, which in
Williamsburg has this like massive what is it storage unit
basically in the back where you guys are making all
a lot of food and it's like a warehouse.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
I wouldn't know is there. That's the eleven thousand square
feet of space and it's everything from all of our
walk in fridges and freezers to where we do a
lot of our like distribution, to where we are and
d anything and everything that goes on the menu. Where
we shoot it like it's it really is like the
creative hub of Milk Bar, one of many, but a
(06:36):
really important one. And yeah, it's like, oh, it all happens.
The's the best part of living in New York City.
You're like, no matter where you walk, you're walking on
this beautiful, fun, sacred, exciting, energetic ground that someone creative
is doing something exciting and we'll share it with the world.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Yeah, and it's amazing.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
And I'm so excited to get into like what you
built and how you built it, because guys, Christina started
Milk Bar when she was twenty six years old. Can
you believe that everybody listening, what were you doing at
twenty six?
Speaker 1 (07:04):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
I don't know what I was doing, I guess, but
twenty six years old, you built this massive company. But
I just have to say really quickly, I saw a Leprechaun,
a little leprechan figurine in your warehouse, and I immediately
started thinking about Saint Patrick's Day. And then I think
I got a peep at the tasting table and I
don't know if this cookie will ever come out, but
there was something green and I was just immediately thinking
about I know, that's probably my gosh.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
St.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Christmas. But I was like Saint Patrick's Day.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
Oh my gosh, I love you. It's you are very
much the like, always looking for a spark and the like.
Any reason to celebrate a day is totally reasonable. Saint
Patrick's Day on my elementary school growing up was called Limbrook,
Home of the Leprechauns. So Saint Patty's Day was really good.
Are you Irish? I'm my Tozy. Tozy is Northern Italian,
(07:49):
like this red, it's like Swiss, yes, Alps.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
I wasn't sure what you were going to say, what
nationality you were going to say after you said schitzing,
because normally I'm married to somebody that's Jewish and like
his family's always saying schmid things, I'm like, it's Jewish.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Is you Italian? If you've been in.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
New York, if you've been in New York long enough,
you must know what schitzi is?
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Right?
Speaker 3 (08:05):
So true?
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Okay, So let's go back to the early days. So
you grew up in Ohio and you grew up in
a family that loved to bake and cook, right, So, like,
tell us a little bit about your childhood and then
how you ended up in New York City building milk bar.
Speaker 3 (08:18):
My mom and dad are both from Ohio. They were
both raised in Ohio, Midwest Columbia. Real big fan of Cincinnati.
My mom was from a small town between Columbus and Cincinnati,
like just small rural town. It's called Port William for sure,
the only port running through it is a very small creek.
But like dairy farmers, cattle farmers, soybean corn, just like
(08:40):
salt of the earth. And my dad from just outside
of Cleveland, Beria area. And I yeah, I was raised
with this just Midwestern sensibility, right, not fancy, not fussy.
We never like when you're going out to a restaurant,
and my mom's family, you're driving twenty minutes to go
to Wendy's, like a beautiful way, which means that everything
(09:02):
that you fuel your body with it happens at home.
It's at the table, right, And so you cook for
every meal because how else are you gonna, you know,
stay alive and feed your big family. And the matriarchs
in my family, so my grandma's, my aunts, my mom,
they love to bake. But we're talking like nothing fancy, right,
(09:23):
like oatmeal, cookies, rolls, in confection or sugar and brownies
and lemon bars like this apple pie, apple dumpling, salt
of the earth stuff, And that's where I definitely fell
in love with. I fell in love with baking and
the like making something bring it to life. But really
I fell in love with eating cookie dough, my grandma's
oatmeal cookie dough, and she would always make oatmeal cookies
(09:44):
because she's like, oh, maal cookies are healthier than chocolo
chip cookies, so naturally, I mean, are they who knows?
But like if Grandma says so, yes, yeah, And so
I really fell in love with baking because I fell
in love with eating cookie dough, like sneaking the cookie dough.
I didn't realize until much later in life was that
(10:05):
these other parts of being raised in this Ohio community
with baked goods was really we wouldn't eat dessert, like
every night, we would bake these things, and then our
baked goods would become like conduit for community in the
outside world. So we'd bring, you know, a plastic baggie
with a brownie in it to a neighbor that was sick,
(10:25):
or you know, a platter of these cookies or an
empty oatmeal container full of cookies to like the old
folks home or to the county fair or what have you.
And I didn't realize or understand or even quite acknowledge
that spirit of connectivity that the baked goods brought, and
like kind of the runner's high, right like a baker's
(10:45):
high when you give someone your baked goods, and like
the feeling and the emotion. I didn't realize that I
was obsessed with it until like long after you know,
went to college studied math in Italian. Was like, oh
my gosh, I have to be grown up now, I
have to like pay my own way. What does this
look like? And I was like, I don't actually want
a desk job. I want to make cookies for the
(11:06):
rest of my life, thinking that it was really just
so I can have an excuse to like be on
my feet, be creative, eat cookie dough. It wasn't until
I thought about really making it a business at milk
Bar that I was like, oh wait, it's so much
deeper than just loving cookie dough. Doesn't remove the fact
that I'm obsessed with cookie dough, but it's like so
much deeper. It was like hiding in plain sight the
(11:27):
whole time. Well, it's so true.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
And I love that you said, like the high that
you get from giving somebody the baked goods that you made, right,
And it's like when you make something that somebody eats
and says, wow, that was really good. It's like it's
like them saying this has stood out to me from
everything else I ate that day, Like that is a
really special thing.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
So it makes sense why you love that so much.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
And it's also, okay, here's my other like kicker on
top of that, because I do love to feed. I
love to cook, so I love to feed people in
general and your mom now, and yeah, exactly, the yeah
feed in the little for you, the big ones. Dessert specifically,
it's like it's not part of the food pyramid. It's
(12:07):
not three round meals. You do not have we have
to eat to stay alive. We don't have to eat dessert,
which is amazing. It means the dessert is an opt
in course. It is the opt in course. And when
you're opting in, I don't know, maybe you're opting in
because you had a really bad day and you're just
trying to like escape, or you had no OK day
and this is gonna make it better, or you had
(12:28):
a freaking rocking day and this is the cherry on top.
But there's something about this sliver of a moment that
we invite dessert into lives that is like all that
all the more special and poignant and emotional. And we
don't take that invitation in lightly at Milk Bar, I mean,
(12:48):
we don't take ourselves too seriously by any stretch of
the imagination, but like that, there's something in that part
of dessert that is awesome.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Yeah, because it's a conscious decision to have dessert right
and like to be the thing that somebody chooses to eat,
Like they're like, I really want a birthday, truffle.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
Yeah, what was the last time you were like I
want a birthday? You know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Like the last time I was like I want a birthday? Truffle.
I can tell you.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
I was living in West Village.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
I was subly sing room in my friend's apartment and
I was on one of my runs and we ran.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Past Milk Bar.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Actually, I did a run where I ran into Milk
Bar with somebody when I was doing an ice cream tour,
and that was the first time I had the Cereal
Milk Soft Serve ice cream. But after I think it
was after doing that run, I had said to Jeremy,
my husband, I was like, we need to go back
to Milk Bar in West Village, the West Village location
and get birthday truffles?
Speaker 3 (13:34):
Can I also say, Cereal Milk Soft Serve the best?
Are you ready for the best kept secret about Cerri
Milk's officer a whole portion of it. This is also
what I love about dessert. There's all these like kidden secrets.
A portion of Cereal Milk Soft Serve is one hundred
and forty five calories, Like everyone eats it in a
way that's like, oh, I really shouldn't be having you
know what I mean. It's like, no, the treat yourself
(13:55):
can really be like a treat yourself. And also the
like don't do that, don't let the other just like
release yourself to it and don't let the other voices
in your head do anything other than just like go away.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Also the names, the way you named your desserts, they're
just they bring again about this like sense of nostalgia
like everybody can think about I mean, unless you're like
a psycho when you don't eat your cereal with milk?
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Do you eat your cereal with milk?
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Thank god? Okay, but like everyone most people.
Speaker 3 (14:23):
People are eating cereal without milk.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Yes, some people do they put a little.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
I mean maybe if you're like trail mix on a
hike snack. I get that if you don't have milk totally.
But if you have milk and you're eating your cereal
without milk, are you? Are you eating it with melted
marshmallows and butter in a cereal treat form?
Speaker 2 (14:40):
Like?
Speaker 3 (14:40):
What how are you eating it?
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Guys? Please?
Speaker 2 (14:42):
Comm how are you eating your cereal? I know I'm
dousing mine in milk. Let's kind of bring it back. So,
post college, you studied mathematics and Italian, very different than
you know pursuing a career in the food industry, although
(15:03):
I could imagine that bits and pieces of those studies
do translate, especially math, into baking and cooking and getting
your ingredients right. When you first graduated, did you go
straight to the French culinary Institute?
Speaker 3 (15:15):
So my math Italian, which I think is like just
a good life lesson, I studied those two things. I
had no practical reason to study them other than they
were the classes that brought me joy, so like my
compass has always been my true north has always been
like what brings you joy? What makes you happy? And
in college I was like, what are the classes you
(15:37):
would take at seven am or eight am? And it
was always like oh math an Italian Like I would
get out of bed being like I love my life,
let's go, like, let's go to those classes. Only I
didn't really have a plan, like when you're sort of
like joy trailing, you're using joy is like, you know,
the thing that's paving your way. It doesn't always feel
like it comes together. But when I finished college, yeah,
(16:01):
I basically it was. It was always made very clear
to us being raised by these great parents. They were like,
we got you. We're gonna, you know, save up, We're
gonna we're gonna help with college. You have to be responsible.
You got this many years in college. Do not mess around,
like we worked really hard. And when you get out
you're an adult, so good luck, you know, like we
raised you right, We're not gonna make excuses. Only I
(16:24):
got out and was like, oh, so am I gonna
be an actuary or a translator? Like what is this?
And I kind of use that same like joy trail compass,
and just asked myself, like, okay, so what is I
have really passionate parents about what they do as a living,
(16:46):
and they're the kind of parents that you know did
the same job at the same place their whole career,
so they modeled for me this and so I was like, okay,
so you get one job for the rest of your
life and you have to be as passionate as they
were and do it every single day until it's time
to retire. And I was like, okay, so it's not
math and it's not Italian, and I was like, it's
(17:07):
bake cookies. That was the one answer that I had.
And I say it now and I almost say it
in a way that maybe is like, hmm, that's jokey,
but I was serious in my brain. I was like, Oh,
it's just bake cookies. It's that simple. And I didn't
think about how that sounded, and I didn't think about it,
and I kind of say it in a way where
I'm it's almost pejorative when I say it out loud now,
(17:29):
but I didn't think about it that way. I took
myself seriously, and I took that seriously. Only. I was like, okay,
so what is someone that make bakes cookies for a living?
What does that translate to as a profession. I was like, Oh,
it means you're a pastry chef. And if you're gonna
be a pastry chef, and you're gonna be the best
pastry chef because I'm not wasting my time in life.
I'm not middling. I don't live in middle middle land,
right Like. I want the most out of life and
(17:50):
I expect a lot out of myself and my time,
and if I'm gonna go for it, I'm gonna go
for it. So I was like, I'm gonna move to
New York City and I'm gonna go to the most
intense pastry show program and I'm going to be a
student by day and I'm going to work in the
best restaurants by by night. Because if I'm going to
do this, I'm going to go all the way in.
I'm a cannonball spirit kind of person. And so I
(18:13):
moved to New York City and enrolled in the French
Culinary Institute. I didn't know anyone. I told my parents
like right before I left, because I was like, there
are ten out of ten not gonna like this. My
mom is an accountant, most passionate accountant. This woman. Imagine
an accountant that brings you like gouey underbaked bar cookies
every time she does your taxes and tells you and
(18:35):
tells you it's going to be okay, and like gives
you a hug. That's her. And then my dad, you'll
love this was an agricultural economist setting dairy prices, Dairy Division,
Department of Agriculture. None of this made any sense, of course,
until I opened Milk Bar, and all of a sudden
I had an accountant and a real, real, real like
way into the dairy industry.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
Dad tell me where to get my mouk from.
Speaker 3 (18:59):
Basically, so moved to New York City, went to culinary
school by day, worked in fine dining restaurants by night.
Worked for free and fine dining restaurants first cause, to
be clear, when you have no experience, you have no experience.
And the premium that is put on experience is real
in New York City. And so I was like, I
(19:20):
will work for whomever for free until there's a paying
spot and until i'm actually you know, worth a paying spot.
And I got my foot in the door and I hustled,
I mean, I got my butt kicked and I hustled
at the same time, and I got I mean so
many great lessons of like humility. I mean, when you
(19:42):
work in restaurants, you're making mistakes in real time, out
loud for everyone to see, and it really character defining
on a bunch of different levels.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Oh yeah, And you know what I think is so
cool too about your journey is like I think by
having parents because I come from a similar situation. My
dad works in finance. My mom I'm always worked for nonprofits.
When you have parents that have very traditional jobs, even
if you want to do something that's a little bit
outside of the box from what your parents did, you
still are somebody that's capable of like knowing how to
stay in your lane and do what you need to
(20:14):
do to like be good at whatever you're doing. And like,
you know, obviously it's like we're always striving to be
the best, right It's like, but who knows if that's
actually gonna happen. But at the end of the day,
it's like, it's very cool knowing that you were like
I want to follow some somewhat of a traditional route,
within this untraditional career that I'm trying to carve out
for myself, and totally so. I like knowing the steps
that you took to hone your skills and learn from
(20:35):
the best.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
I was always raised to follow the rules right, to
be like an upstanding citizen. And what I realized as
I was as I'd gotten out of the house to
go to college, was I really learned how to play
by the rules, but to also figure out where the
lines were, like a little softer right, like how to
(21:00):
learn the rules and how to learn how and when
to break the rules while still living within the system
of rules. And I think that's a really big secret
to life on so many different levels. I think following
all the rules doesn't get you anywhere. I think you
have to learn the rules. You have to learn when
they're meant to be broken, when they can be broken,
how to define the you know what I mean. It's
(21:22):
all based on like context and definition. But it is
really interesting. I mean, I can only imagine what your
parents think about what you do. Right where there is
this beautiful part I'm now a parent, where you sort
of have to have the confidence of like, Okay, I've
been modeling to my family what the expectations are, but
(21:42):
what success ken and should look like. And you have
to really learn how to turn the volume down on
context anywhere else. Because they were certain that if I
didn't wear a suit to work, I was not going
to be successful in life, right Like it's very strange
to be like, I'm gonna go work not even minimum wage,
no wage, because I really believe in what I do,
(22:04):
and you just you have to really have the trust,
in the confidence as a parent, I think, to do
that and to just know that when it doesn't make
sense it will in life. Also, things that don't make sense,
it's okay that they don't make sense right now. You
just have to trust that you're on the path and
it all makes sense. It all comes around together in
the end, which is also so much of your story.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Yes it's so true, and I'll tell you at another time,
But my parents thought I was literally insane leaving my
agency job to go run with a tripod and film
with strangers on the streets of New York. And then
it's transpired into this thing that when I had first
started it, it wasn't an interview show. It was really
a vlog on the run and I was having so
much fun with it, and naturally it progressed into like, okay, well,
when you get your ten thousand hours in talking to
(22:47):
random strangers, you get pretty good at improv on the
spot with them, and then all of a sudden you're
having full blown interviews while running, and then now you're
doing a sit down podcast. It's like, you never know
what happens when you just follow that spark. And I
think that's so true for you, right, And let's talk
about the best piece of advice that you received from
it was David Chang. So David Chang Momufuku iconic New
(23:08):
York City food franchises.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Can I call it that? Is it a franchise?
Speaker 3 (23:12):
Restaurant? Restaurant grew, collection of restaurants, collection of restaurants. We
hate titles in the kitchen. I mean, we love titles
because you have to know the brigade of it, but
we're very like unfancy, unfussy people. We just want to
cook and feed people.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Yeah, but when I first learned about you, it was
through David Chang, So let's talk about how he was
instrumental in your life and then in Milk.
Speaker 3 (23:33):
Bar's growth and man Dave is like my brother still
to this day. He's the person that, like I would
do anything for. And also we can get in like
the most hilarious arguments about everything and nothing, which I
think that's when you have like a real friendship, you know,
a real kinship. What he was doing, I had worked
in these fine dining restaurants and I got I ended
(23:56):
up getting to like the top of the food chain
in them, and then I'd always find myself then looking
for another adventure, and I thought to myself, what is happening.
Your whole point is to be the best pastry chef,
like that's your goal, and then you get to the
top and you don't want to go any further. What's
going on? And I realized that I really missed the
simplicity of a baked good and the power. It's kind
(24:18):
of like a trojan horse into people's lives. Everyone knows
what a cookie is, everyone knows what a brownie is
or an ice cream, and there was something about the
simplicity of that format that didn't exist in fine dining.
So I ended up getting out of fine dining. But
I loved food, and I had met Dave because the
food industry like most industries, is infamously really tight knit
and really small, and Dave just needed help figuring out
(24:42):
what the heck was happening in his restaurants. He had
followed a similar career, gone into fine dining, culinary school,
find dining on the savory side, working for the best
savory chefs in America, and at the end of the
day he kind of gave it all up and had
opened this Ramen shop, and through tinkering, was just cooking
(25:04):
the food he wanted to cook. He was basically democratizing
savory food. It was, of course a noodle bar, but
it had a bunch of other random, delicious dishes on it.
And then he opened Sombar, very similar story. And what
he was doing he was cooking out loud. He was
breaking every rule that was quite frankly meant to be broken,
taking his craft from like very fine dining, savory culinary
(25:30):
terms and bringing it back to a very accessible, very
very entry level dining format. And I was just inspired
by that. Like, my favorite people that I ever worked
for were always people that were doing something that was different,
and from that, I was like just a sponge. I
want to be in this environment. I don't know why.
(25:51):
And then as I worked a little bit more and
a little bit more, was like, that's why, that's why
I learned. I learned, I learned and learn pick it up.
And what I realized through what Dave was doing democratizing
savory food, I was like, this is this is the
I'm drawn to this because this is what I'm looking for.
This is what I want to be doing in dessert
Land on bake goods Land, and Dave I was helping
(26:14):
him build restaurants and run operations Andy and n by day.
But like, if you're a baker, baker's got a bake
And so I would go home and bake right like,
I'd work crazy hours and then I'd go home in
the middle of the night and bake because it's just
like my expression. I'd come in. Also, if you're a baker,
you probably bake almost every day. You can't eat all
the bake goods yourself. There's only so much room in
your body, and you secretly love, secretly love to feed people.
(26:38):
And so I would just bring in whatever I had
baked the night before to work the next day, and
Dave would one day was just like I'm this, I'm done.
I'm done with you in true sibling land. And I
was like, I don't even know what you're talking about, dude,
what's with the attitude? And he was like, you so
clearly are meant to bake for a living, Like being
here is a waste of time. Basically like you should
(27:01):
open your own place. You know exactly what it is
in your head, I know, you know, and like basically
go And we found a spot right next to MoMA
Fuku Sambar that was an old laundromat and he was like, dude,
let's go, like this is you, this is your jumping
off point. And we got in so many screaming matches
about like he was on some work trip, came back.
We were about to open milk bar. I showed him
(27:21):
the menu and he was like what, like what is
a compost cookie? And why aren't the cakes frosted on
the sides. But also in a true way, it was
like I also know nothing about dessert, but I know
it tastes good, right, So I fed him, fed him
the cereal milk because ies bugged out of his head,
you know, And he was like, also, just go for it.
You know what else are you waiting for.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
It seems like from what you're saying, there was all
this positive momentum that really was like the tipping point
you were finally pushed into this direction of like, Okay,
we're launching milk Bar. I want to get into how
you named it milk bar and why, but first I
want to ask, like, did you ever have a rock.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
Bottom moment where you really so many rock bottom moments? Yeah?
I mean what I've learned about myself is the way
my brain works is I do have the answers, but
I oftentimes won't part of myself won't let myself see
that I know the answers, So I need pushes, Like
Dave was definitely like the push. I was like, Ash,
he's calling me on it.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Talk about an amazing mentor though that you know, the
best mentors are the ones that tell you that don't
hold you.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
Back from one hundred percent one hundred percent. I mean
my husband even was like, we're in love, we're gonna
get married, and I'm like, oh, yeah, you're right, Okay,
that's probably you know what I mean? Like, I live
in La La land in my head and I need
those forces that really like ground me and help me
sort of like mark where I am in life. But
(28:47):
I mean my rock Bottoms are everything from like working
my way up and fine dining restaurants and like you're
eating humble pie day in and day out. You're getting
no sleep. It's demoralizing, and you just have you can't
let any of the other voices in your head out.
You just have to be like try again. I mean,
it's a long distance running mentality. Just go at it again.
I'll just go on another run. I'll get a little
(29:09):
bit better tomorrow, right, like the it's not the end
of the world. I'm I was raised by a mom
who is like the best mom and also really embarrassing,
like the kind of mom that like, you know, that
kind of mom that like cheers too loud across country races,
that kind of mom. And I think she just also
raised me to be uncomfortable being embarrassed, and so no
matter what the professional embarrassment was, it was like, Okay,
(29:32):
that's fine, that's fine. I'm just uncomfortable. It's no big deal.
But I mean rock Bottom were like, you know, the
first year of Milk Bar, just like sleeping at the bakery,
you know, like getting no hours of sleep, asking for
help having no money, you know, like all the things
that you do, and yet at the same time it
also all made sense or maybe said differently. I never
(29:53):
questioned it because I think when you're when you set
yourself on a path, you really have to let yourself
be on a path and you have to just keep going.
You have to just keep going, like every day, every
hour is an opportunity to just advance and to just
believe in like the stacking mentality of like you stack
it up, it's little by little by little, by little
(30:13):
by little.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
Was milkbur an instant success when you guys opened a
kind of.
Speaker 3 (30:18):
I remember opening day November fifteenth, two thousand and eight.
I remember I had like gone home to like take
a thirty minute shower and walk my dog and be
like okay, I got to turn around and come back
in the middle of the night and start baking cookies
and in in and I remember, I mean this was
before social media. People were still using blackberries, Like the
iPhone wasn't a thing, not in the way that it
(30:39):
is now. People were there was no Google Maps, you
know what I mean, Like, I think you're probably using
map quest or something. And I remember there was a
line out the door and around the corner as I
was going to open the gate, and I remember thinking,
who are these people? Where are they coming from? They
don't know who I am, they don't know us, they
haven't even they don't even know what they're waiting in
line for the beauty of New York line by the way,
(31:01):
Still that still rings true, But you know, I think
I was really smart and strategic about using Momofuku as
my launch pad. And what people knew about MoMA Fuku
and the East Village was like you were gonna get
loud food, loud flavors. There was a boldness, there was
a heartbeat to it, right, like it was real and
it was emotional, and you could tell that we were
(31:21):
leaving everything that we had on the plate every day,
every service. And so I think people were cute up
out of curiosity. But what was unclear was whether people
would understand like what is cereal mom? Would they be
down for like a dense gouey underbaked pie. Would they
want ground coffee and pretzels and potato chips and coffee
(31:42):
in their cookie? Right? Like I remember one woman being like,
where are the cakes that Oprah's talking about? Are her
favorite cakes and I'm like, they're right there, and she's
like they look like spaceships, whereas they're not frosted on
the sides. Are they done yet? And being like, no, yeah,
they're done. Would you like a slice? You know that
sort of thing, and very quickly we just we got
a lot of love really quickly, and I think that
(32:05):
really helped contextualize who we were and what we were
trying to do, and it gave people a way to
understand what we were doing and to embrace it and
to just come by and taste it. I mean, I
think with any food, tasting is believing you can't read
about food. You have to eat it, you have to
be there, you have to witness it, you have to
see it, you have to smell it, and you have
(32:26):
to take a bite to really get it. And they
got it. But I also think the democratization of dessert
right like, everything that we do at Milk Bar still
is like it's a cookie, it's a cake, it's a
Piet's ice cream. So the leap of faith is not
in format. They're all formats that you know and love
and are really safe and ideally help make you feel
(32:47):
like yourself they bring you back, they bring you forward.
It's in how we do it, the texture, the flavor,
the flavor stories, what we make possible in the formats
and flavors that makes it really fun and curious and contagious.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
That's what I was gonna say.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
It's like you guys at Milk Bar have really redefined
traditional desserts, you know, and have blown people away with
everything that you just mentioned, from the texture is what
they taste like to just everything that you guys do.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
What is cereal milk?
Speaker 3 (33:18):
Cereal milk is an ice is a soft serve ice
cream that we sell the Milk Bar, and it tastes
like what's left in your bowl after you eat all
the cereal.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
Aut But when you're pouring it into coffee, Yes, what
is that?
Speaker 1 (33:29):
Is that like a milk?
Speaker 3 (33:31):
Yeah? So we toast corn flakes, not because I think
cornflakes are the best cereal. To be clear, everyone has
a favorite cereal. I have many favorite cereals, but it's
it is the flavor of kind of all of the
flavor of the idea of cereal milk. So we toast
the cereal and then we make basically a giant bowl
of cereal. So thing honey shrunk the kid's moment. We
(33:52):
pour milk over it and it washes the flavor of
the cereal into the milk below. But cereal milk is
kind of the reason that milk is called milk bar.
I had made it as like a plate of dessert
for one of the moment Fuku restaurants. I had this
idea and was eating it with Dave and we were like, oh,
this is a thing, and I was like, it's cereal milk.
(34:14):
Like he was like, what's it called. I was like,
it's cereal milk, And it really for me was the
it's more than baked goods. And my idea for milk
Bar early on was before we opened, was a modern
day take on a dairy queen with like a bakery
smushed in right, So like this sort of roadside custard stand,
(34:37):
soft dairy queen, soft serve machine, roadside attraction, meshed with
all of my favorite bake goods that I thought the
world needed in their lives, and so sort of like
dairy queen, milk Bar kind of like lived in that
same sort of naming convention, and I liked that it
was sort of simple and non specific, but also clear.
(34:58):
You know, I think great name.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Do that, Yeah, they do. I mean milk.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
It's such a good name, and I mean it's yeah,
it's very sensory in a way too, Like everybody knows
what milk tastes like, you know what I mean. And
it's kind of just this word that evokes like a
certain feelings, like hard to explain, but it's just it's good.
Speaker 3 (35:15):
It's textural, yeah, or there's a viscosity in a creamy stay.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
Yes. Yes, it's like it's nostalgic, which is like a
play on kind of a lot of stuff that you
guys do at Milkbark.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
I said this to you on the run.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
I think one of the most impressive things that you've
done is not only are you obviously an incredibly skilled chef, baker, cook,
like all of the things, and you've studied at the
highest level for you know, the high dining and fine
dining whatever you want to call it, but you've also
created this incredible brand that is now is it international
or just national?
Speaker 3 (35:45):
Yeah, I guess it's international. Most of our presence is
here in the US, right.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
So it's so cool to be able to sit across
from you and just like the business woman that you are.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
It's amazing.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
You've written books, you've hosted shows, you've you know, won
so much any awards for what you do. It's just
it's so impressive. You're a mom, You're really doing it all.
So it's just I could talk to you for hours.
Speaker 3 (36:08):
Until our next run, my friend, until our next we'll
go on a lot. We'll go on like a half
marathon run, and then we'll really can you know what.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
I'll let you know when I'm in Nashville and maybe
we do a longer interview.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
Then, oh, I love that.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
Maybe maybe our run ends with you like teaching me
how to bake on the.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
Cookies you we should do a bake club together. That's
really it.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
Okay until then, until then, what's a piece of advice
Christina that you have for our listeners today.
Speaker 3 (36:34):
Here's the best advice that I live my day, week, month,
year life with. And it's the secret to life is
always having something to look forward to. And that can
be big, but it can also be small, like things
that I'm looking forward to last night, things I was
looking forward to. I get to go on a run
(36:55):
and call it work. Then I get to eat cookies
and call it work, then I get to hang out
with you know. It's it is really celebrating these it's
really getting excited about little or big things that are
on your near or super far out horizon and like
milking it, like getting it, really getting excited about it,
because when you're in it, you experience it and appreciate
(37:17):
it so much more. And then no matter, you're gonna
have this in a day. Those waves are so easy
to ride, the highs and the lows are so easy
to ride because you're like, Oh, I know what's coming
up that I'm excited about. I'm not bothered by this.
I'm not bothered by a little turbulence. Thank you sing much?
Speaker 2 (37:34):
All right, guys, thanks for listening to Post Run High
with Christina. Why don't you stop buy milk bar after
this episode and fuel yourself up with some cookies or
cake or pie.
Speaker 3 (37:45):
Oh I brought you a slice of the pumpkin coffee
ca cake from the bakery. Let us go eat it.
There you go?
Speaker 2 (37:50):
Alrighty, thanks for listening to Post Run High. If today's
episode moved you, please share it with a friend and
make sure you subscribe if you don't already, I'll see
you guys next week not
Hi, guys, welcome back to Post Run.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Hi. I am so excited to get into today's episode
with Christina TAUSI. If you guys don't know, Christina is
the founder of Milk Bar, and Milk Bar is an
iconic bakery here in New York City. She is one
impressive woman and I am just so excited for you
guys to get to know her. This is going to
be a little bit of a short episode, and that's
just because Christina had around twenty five to thirty minutes
(00:28):
with us after our run to sit down and do
this podcast. And if you like founder stories, especially female
founder stories, then I think you're gonna love today's episode.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
So excited for you guys to listen to it.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Let's get into today's episode with Christina.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Christina, welcome to Post.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
Her and high my gosh, I'm feeling amazing.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Well, I'm so excited to have you here, guys.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Christina and I just ran a couple miles in Williamsburg
and we ended at her infamous Milk Bar location there
in Williamsburg.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
There's like no greater feeling than going on a run
and then eating cookies and then being like cool, let's
just hang out in some lounge chairs and talk about life. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Well, you know, it's so funny. I've been telling you
this since we've met this morning. I've been a fan
of Milk Bar for so many years. You guys, you
started Milk Bar in two thousand and eight. It's so
impressive what you've built. And I love knowing that you're
a long distance runner.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
That's something I never knew, and I feel like I
wish I had known.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
Can I just say about long distance runners? When you
found another long distance runner, You're like, I can see
into your soul. I get you. Thank you for you,
and also we're gonna be connected forever because we're both
crazy enough to love the same thing.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
It's like, now I know why you're so successful.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
I still have you ever met?
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Truly. I mean one of my things is like I
wish I could ask in the interview process if people
were long distance runners, because a long distance runner is
the greatest hire you could ever make, because they have
kind of like the infinite game mindset and they just
you just never stop, You never say die, Like it's
not There's something about the longevity of going after something
(02:17):
you love and being able to live in discomfort because
you're here for the journey of it, You're here to
get somewhere. But also on long distance running, there's never
really a finish line. You're you're just obsessing over your
next long run.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
It's so true, and I feel like that shows up
so much in what you've built at Milk Bar and
how you guys have over the years continued to innovate
and guys, just a little preface, were doing a little
bit of a shorter episode today because Christina is going
back because she has an hour and a half long
tasting after this.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
We have so many great ideas on the bench in
Milk Bar. This is it's like the agony and the
ecstasy of it. We go at all of these different ideas,
whether like their flavors, store ideas, or format ideas, or
partnerships that we're working on, or because you just never
know how long it's going to take to nail a recipe.
(03:09):
That's the best part of baking and the hardest part
of baking. I think you just never know. You know
when it's done. We sort of have this like if
we're not obsessed with it, we can't expect you to be.
But you just don't know how long the process is
gonna take. And every week we do like an hour
and a half long dessert tasting, which is like so brilliant,
and you also for me, I have to remember to
(03:30):
paste myself because I love dessert so much. An hour
and I'm like, wait, we still have thirty more minutes
of things to taste, to tinker. And then it becomes
a little bit of this, like you want to make
sure your palette is bright and fresh and in the
right mindset. But it's also great to be a long
distance runner because there's always room for more dessert.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Yeah, it's so true.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
And I can't even imagine being in your tastings because guys,
today after our run, we sat and we had five
cookies was it? Five different cookie options? And I started
with the chocolage of cookie. If you guys know, you
know I love chocolate chip cookies. And after I had
the original gooey chocolatechip cookie, I was like, how could
it get better than this? And then every single one
after that, I was like, wait, was this better than
(04:11):
the chocolate chip cookie? So I can't imagine in your tastings,
because truly it must be like one great thing after
the next it's fun. What flavors are we hyper fixating on?
Speaker 3 (04:20):
Right now? We're going into the holiday season, which I
actually think is the hardest season to create and innovate
for because we are so conditioned to think about food
and nostalgia through the holiday season, Like it's fall, so
it must be apple or pumpkin or cinnamon or spice. Right, Okay,
(04:45):
it's like the Christmassy December era. Okay, it's gingerbread, it's eggnog,
it's peppermint, it's chocolate. We don't it's really actually hard
to get people out of those flavor boxes. So then
it becomes more of a challenge to go, Okay, what
haven't we thought of? What haven't we created? A little
bit like backing ourselves into a corner with these air
(05:06):
quoting because I do love these flavors, limited flavors of
the seasons. But that's really that also makes the job
really fun. But we're like hyper fixated in the fall
winter of it, and then we're also hilariously it's almost
like running a magazine where you're like, we're fixating on
Valentine's Day even though it is early fall at best
(05:28):
right now, Like we sweat a little bit. We switzed
a little bit outside on our run, you know, and
I'm already thinking like, okay, how do we really think
about like Valentine's Day in the right ways? But it's fun.
You get to think about, like what flavors is will
my future self and Kate's future self and everyone's future self,
what will we be excited about? What will we be
(05:49):
curious about? What will we want to like get up
and race out for dessert or race to order dessert
online to arrive at my doorstep? What will that be?
And that's really that's fun part of.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
The job to Yeah, it's like choose your own adventure.
You know what I was getting excited about as I
was walking through. We were at your storefront, which in
Williamsburg has this like massive what is it storage unit
basically in the back where you guys are making all
a lot of food and it's like a warehouse.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
I wouldn't know is there. That's the eleven thousand square
feet of space and it's everything from all of our
walk in fridges and freezers to where we do a
lot of our like distribution, to where we are and
d anything and everything that goes on the menu. Where
we shoot it like it's it really is like the
creative hub of Milk Bar, one of many, but a
(06:36):
really important one. And yeah, it's like, oh, it all happens.
The's the best part of living in New York City.
You're like, no matter where you walk, you're walking on
this beautiful, fun, sacred, exciting, energetic ground that someone creative
is doing something exciting and we'll share it with the world.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Yeah, and it's amazing.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
And I'm so excited to get into like what you
built and how you built it, because guys, Christina started
Milk Bar when she was twenty six years old. Can
you believe that everybody listening, what were you doing at
twenty six?
Speaker 1 (07:04):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
I don't know what I was doing, I guess, but
twenty six years old, you built this massive company. But
I just have to say really quickly, I saw a Leprechaun,
a little leprechan figurine in your warehouse, and I immediately
started thinking about Saint Patrick's Day. And then I think
I got a peep at the tasting table and I
don't know if this cookie will ever come out, but
there was something green and I was just immediately thinking
about I know, that's probably my gosh.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
St.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Christmas. But I was like Saint Patrick's Day.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
Oh my gosh, I love you. It's you are very
much the like, always looking for a spark and the like.
Any reason to celebrate a day is totally reasonable. Saint
Patrick's Day on my elementary school growing up was called Limbrook,
Home of the Leprechauns. So Saint Patty's Day was really good.
Are you Irish? I'm my Tozy. Tozy is Northern Italian,
(07:49):
like this red, it's like Swiss, yes, Alps.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
I wasn't sure what you were going to say, what
nationality you were going to say after you said schitzing,
because normally I'm married to somebody that's Jewish and like
his family's always saying schmid things, I'm like, it's Jewish.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Is you Italian? If you've been in.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
New York, if you've been in New York long enough,
you must know what schitzi is?
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Right?
Speaker 3 (08:05):
So true?
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Okay, So let's go back to the early days. So
you grew up in Ohio and you grew up in
a family that loved to bake and cook, right, So, like,
tell us a little bit about your childhood and then
how you ended up in New York City building milk bar.
Speaker 3 (08:18):
My mom and dad are both from Ohio. They were
both raised in Ohio, Midwest Columbia. Real big fan of Cincinnati.
My mom was from a small town between Columbus and Cincinnati,
like just small rural town. It's called Port William for sure,
the only port running through it is a very small creek.
But like dairy farmers, cattle farmers, soybean corn, just like
(08:40):
salt of the earth. And my dad from just outside
of Cleveland, Beria area. And I yeah, I was raised
with this just Midwestern sensibility, right, not fancy, not fussy.
We never like when you're going out to a restaurant,
and my mom's family, you're driving twenty minutes to go
to Wendy's, like a beautiful way, which means that everything
(09:02):
that you fuel your body with it happens at home.
It's at the table, right, And so you cook for
every meal because how else are you gonna, you know,
stay alive and feed your big family. And the matriarchs
in my family, so my grandma's, my aunts, my mom,
they love to bake. But we're talking like nothing fancy, right,
(09:23):
like oatmeal, cookies, rolls, in confection or sugar and brownies
and lemon bars like this apple pie, apple dumpling, salt
of the earth stuff, And that's where I definitely fell
in love with. I fell in love with baking and
the like making something bring it to life. But really
I fell in love with eating cookie dough, my grandma's
oatmeal cookie dough, and she would always make oatmeal cookies
(09:44):
because she's like, oh, maal cookies are healthier than chocolo
chip cookies, so naturally, I mean, are they who knows?
But like if Grandma says so, yes, yeah, And so
I really fell in love with baking because I fell
in love with eating cookie dough, like sneaking the cookie dough.
I didn't realize until much later in life was that
(10:05):
these other parts of being raised in this Ohio community
with baked goods was really we wouldn't eat dessert, like
every night, we would bake these things, and then our
baked goods would become like conduit for community in the
outside world. So we'd bring, you know, a plastic baggie
with a brownie in it to a neighbor that was sick,
(10:25):
or you know, a platter of these cookies or an
empty oatmeal container full of cookies to like the old
folks home or to the county fair or what have you.
And I didn't realize or understand or even quite acknowledge
that spirit of connectivity that the baked goods brought, and
like kind of the runner's high, right like a baker's
(10:45):
high when you give someone your baked goods, and like
the feeling and the emotion. I didn't realize that I
was obsessed with it until like long after you know,
went to college studied math in Italian. Was like, oh
my gosh, I have to be grown up now, I
have to like pay my own way. What does this
look like? And I was like, I don't actually want
a desk job. I want to make cookies for the
(11:06):
rest of my life, thinking that it was really just
so I can have an excuse to like be on
my feet, be creative, eat cookie dough. It wasn't until
I thought about really making it a business at milk
Bar that I was like, oh wait, it's so much
deeper than just loving cookie dough. Doesn't remove the fact
that I'm obsessed with cookie dough, but it's like so
much deeper. It was like hiding in plain sight the
(11:27):
whole time. Well, it's so true.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
And I love that you said, like the high that
you get from giving somebody the baked goods that you made, right,
And it's like when you make something that somebody eats
and says, wow, that was really good. It's like it's
like them saying this has stood out to me from
everything else I ate that day, Like that is a
really special thing.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
So it makes sense why you love that so much.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
And it's also, okay, here's my other like kicker on
top of that, because I do love to feed. I
love to cook, so I love to feed people in
general and your mom now, and yeah, exactly, the yeah
feed in the little for you, the big ones. Dessert specifically,
it's like it's not part of the food pyramid. It's
(12:07):
not three round meals. You do not have we have
to eat to stay alive. We don't have to eat dessert,
which is amazing. It means the dessert is an opt
in course. It is the opt in course. And when
you're opting in, I don't know, maybe you're opting in
because you had a really bad day and you're just
trying to like escape, or you had no OK day
and this is gonna make it better, or you had
(12:28):
a freaking rocking day and this is the cherry on top.
But there's something about this sliver of a moment that
we invite dessert into lives that is like all that
all the more special and poignant and emotional. And we
don't take that invitation in lightly at Milk Bar, I mean,
(12:48):
we don't take ourselves too seriously by any stretch of
the imagination, but like that, there's something in that part
of dessert that is awesome.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Yeah, because it's a conscious decision to have dessert right
and like to be the thing that somebody chooses to eat,
Like they're like, I really want a birthday, truffle.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
Yeah, what was the last time you were like I
want a birthday? You know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Like the last time I was like I want a birthday? Truffle.
I can tell you.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
I was living in West Village.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
I was subly sing room in my friend's apartment and
I was on one of my runs and we ran.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Past Milk Bar.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Actually, I did a run where I ran into Milk
Bar with somebody when I was doing an ice cream tour,
and that was the first time I had the Cereal
Milk Soft Serve ice cream. But after I think it
was after doing that run, I had said to Jeremy,
my husband, I was like, we need to go back
to Milk Bar in West Village, the West Village location
and get birthday truffles?
Speaker 3 (13:34):
Can I also say, Cereal Milk Soft Serve the best?
Are you ready for the best kept secret about Cerri
Milk's officer a whole portion of it. This is also
what I love about dessert. There's all these like kidden secrets.
A portion of Cereal Milk Soft Serve is one hundred
and forty five calories, Like everyone eats it in a
way that's like, oh, I really shouldn't be having you
know what I mean. It's like, no, the treat yourself
(13:55):
can really be like a treat yourself. And also the
like don't do that, don't let the other just like
release yourself to it and don't let the other voices
in your head do anything other than just like go away.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Also the names, the way you named your desserts, they're
just they bring again about this like sense of nostalgia
like everybody can think about I mean, unless you're like
a psycho when you don't eat your cereal with milk?
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Do you eat your cereal with milk?
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Thank god? Okay, but like everyone most people.
Speaker 3 (14:23):
People are eating cereal without milk.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Yes, some people do they put a little.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
I mean maybe if you're like trail mix on a
hike snack. I get that if you don't have milk totally.
But if you have milk and you're eating your cereal
without milk, are you? Are you eating it with melted
marshmallows and butter in a cereal treat form?
Speaker 2 (14:40):
Like?
Speaker 3 (14:40):
What how are you eating it?
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Guys? Please?
Speaker 2 (14:42):
Comm how are you eating your cereal? I know I'm
dousing mine in milk. Let's kind of bring it back. So,
post college, you studied mathematics and Italian, very different than
you know pursuing a career in the food industry, although
(15:03):
I could imagine that bits and pieces of those studies
do translate, especially math, into baking and cooking and getting
your ingredients right. When you first graduated, did you go
straight to the French culinary Institute?
Speaker 3 (15:15):
So my math Italian, which I think is like just
a good life lesson, I studied those two things. I
had no practical reason to study them other than they
were the classes that brought me joy, so like my
compass has always been my true north has always been
like what brings you joy? What makes you happy? And
in college I was like, what are the classes you
(15:37):
would take at seven am or eight am? And it
was always like oh math an Italian Like I would
get out of bed being like I love my life,
let's go, like, let's go to those classes. Only I
didn't really have a plan, like when you're sort of
like joy trailing, you're using joy is like, you know,
the thing that's paving your way. It doesn't always feel
like it comes together. But when I finished college, yeah,
(16:01):
I basically it was. It was always made very clear
to us being raised by these great parents. They were like,
we got you. We're gonna, you know, save up, We're
gonna we're gonna help with college. You have to be responsible.
You got this many years in college. Do not mess around,
like we worked really hard. And when you get out
you're an adult, so good luck, you know, like we
raised you right, We're not gonna make excuses. Only I
(16:24):
got out and was like, oh, so am I gonna
be an actuary or a translator? Like what is this?
And I kind of use that same like joy trail compass,
and just asked myself, like, okay, so what is I
have really passionate parents about what they do as a living,
(16:46):
and they're the kind of parents that you know did
the same job at the same place their whole career,
so they modeled for me this and so I was like, okay,
so you get one job for the rest of your
life and you have to be as passionate as they
were and do it every single day until it's time
to retire. And I was like, okay, so it's not
math and it's not Italian, and I was like, it's
(17:07):
bake cookies. That was the one answer that I had.
And I say it now and I almost say it
in a way that maybe is like, hmm, that's jokey,
but I was serious in my brain. I was like, Oh,
it's just bake cookies. It's that simple. And I didn't
think about how that sounded, and I didn't think about it,
and I kind of say it in a way where
I'm it's almost pejorative when I say it out loud now,
(17:29):
but I didn't think about it that way. I took
myself seriously, and I took that seriously. Only. I was like, okay,
so what is someone that make bakes cookies for a living?
What does that translate to as a profession. I was like, Oh,
it means you're a pastry chef. And if you're gonna
be a pastry chef, and you're gonna be the best
pastry chef because I'm not wasting my time in life.
I'm not middling. I don't live in middle middle land,
right Like. I want the most out of life and
(17:50):
I expect a lot out of myself and my time,
and if I'm gonna go for it, I'm gonna go
for it. So I was like, I'm gonna move to
New York City and I'm gonna go to the most
intense pastry show program and I'm going to be a
student by day and I'm going to work in the
best restaurants by by night. Because if I'm going to
do this, I'm going to go all the way in.
I'm a cannonball spirit kind of person. And so I
(18:13):
moved to New York City and enrolled in the French
Culinary Institute. I didn't know anyone. I told my parents
like right before I left, because I was like, there
are ten out of ten not gonna like this. My
mom is an accountant, most passionate accountant. This woman. Imagine
an accountant that brings you like gouey underbaked bar cookies
every time she does your taxes and tells you and
(18:35):
tells you it's going to be okay, and like gives
you a hug. That's her. And then my dad, you'll
love this was an agricultural economist setting dairy prices, Dairy Division,
Department of Agriculture. None of this made any sense, of course,
until I opened Milk Bar, and all of a sudden
I had an accountant and a real, real, real like
way into the dairy industry.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
Dad tell me where to get my mouk from.
Speaker 3 (18:59):
Basically, so moved to New York City, went to culinary
school by day, worked in fine dining restaurants by night.
Worked for free and fine dining restaurants first cause, to
be clear, when you have no experience, you have no experience.
And the premium that is put on experience is real
in New York City. And so I was like, I
(19:20):
will work for whomever for free until there's a paying
spot and until i'm actually you know, worth a paying spot.
And I got my foot in the door and I hustled,
I mean, I got my butt kicked and I hustled
at the same time, and I got I mean so
many great lessons of like humility. I mean, when you
(19:42):
work in restaurants, you're making mistakes in real time, out
loud for everyone to see, and it really character defining
on a bunch of different levels.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Oh yeah, And you know what I think is so
cool too about your journey is like I think by
having parents because I come from a similar situation. My
dad works in finance. My mom I'm always worked for nonprofits.
When you have parents that have very traditional jobs, even
if you want to do something that's a little bit
outside of the box from what your parents did, you
still are somebody that's capable of like knowing how to
stay in your lane and do what you need to
(20:14):
do to like be good at whatever you're doing. And like,
you know, obviously it's like we're always striving to be
the best, right It's like, but who knows if that's
actually gonna happen. But at the end of the day,
it's like, it's very cool knowing that you were like
I want to follow some somewhat of a traditional route,
within this untraditional career that I'm trying to carve out
for myself, and totally so. I like knowing the steps
that you took to hone your skills and learn from
(20:35):
the best.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
I was always raised to follow the rules right, to
be like an upstanding citizen. And what I realized as
I was as I'd gotten out of the house to
go to college, was I really learned how to play
by the rules, but to also figure out where the
lines were, like a little softer right, like how to
(21:00):
learn the rules and how to learn how and when
to break the rules while still living within the system
of rules. And I think that's a really big secret
to life on so many different levels. I think following
all the rules doesn't get you anywhere. I think you
have to learn the rules. You have to learn when
they're meant to be broken, when they can be broken,
how to define the you know what I mean. It's
(21:22):
all based on like context and definition. But it is
really interesting. I mean, I can only imagine what your
parents think about what you do. Right where there is
this beautiful part I'm now a parent, where you sort
of have to have the confidence of like, Okay, I've
been modeling to my family what the expectations are, but
(21:42):
what success ken and should look like. And you have
to really learn how to turn the volume down on
context anywhere else. Because they were certain that if I
didn't wear a suit to work, I was not going
to be successful in life, right Like it's very strange
to be like, I'm gonna go work not even minimum wage,
no wage, because I really believe in what I do,
(22:04):
and you just you have to really have the trust,
in the confidence as a parent, I think, to do
that and to just know that when it doesn't make
sense it will in life. Also, things that don't make sense,
it's okay that they don't make sense right now. You
just have to trust that you're on the path and
it all makes sense. It all comes around together in
the end, which is also so much of your story.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Yes it's so true, and I'll tell you at another time,
But my parents thought I was literally insane leaving my
agency job to go run with a tripod and film
with strangers on the streets of New York. And then
it's transpired into this thing that when I had first
started it, it wasn't an interview show. It was really
a vlog on the run and I was having so
much fun with it, and naturally it progressed into like, okay, well,
when you get your ten thousand hours in talking to
(22:47):
random strangers, you get pretty good at improv on the
spot with them, and then all of a sudden you're
having full blown interviews while running, and then now you're
doing a sit down podcast. It's like, you never know
what happens when you just follow that spark. And I
think that's so true for you, right, And let's talk
about the best piece of advice that you received from
it was David Chang. So David Chang Momufuku iconic New
(23:08):
York City food franchises.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Can I call it that? Is it a franchise?
Speaker 3 (23:12):
Restaurant? Restaurant grew, collection of restaurants, collection of restaurants. We
hate titles in the kitchen. I mean, we love titles
because you have to know the brigade of it, but
we're very like unfancy, unfussy people. We just want to
cook and feed people.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Yeah, but when I first learned about you, it was
through David Chang, So let's talk about how he was
instrumental in your life and then in Milk.
Speaker 3 (23:33):
Bar's growth and man Dave is like my brother still
to this day. He's the person that, like I would
do anything for. And also we can get in like
the most hilarious arguments about everything and nothing, which I
think that's when you have like a real friendship, you know,
a real kinship. What he was doing, I had worked
in these fine dining restaurants and I got I ended
(23:56):
up getting to like the top of the food chain
in them, and then I'd always find myself then looking
for another adventure, and I thought to myself, what is happening.
Your whole point is to be the best pastry chef,
like that's your goal, and then you get to the
top and you don't want to go any further. What's
going on? And I realized that I really missed the
simplicity of a baked good and the power. It's kind
(24:18):
of like a trojan horse into people's lives. Everyone knows
what a cookie is, everyone knows what a brownie is
or an ice cream, and there was something about the
simplicity of that format that didn't exist in fine dining.
So I ended up getting out of fine dining. But
I loved food, and I had met Dave because the
food industry like most industries, is infamously really tight knit
and really small, and Dave just needed help figuring out
(24:42):
what the heck was happening in his restaurants. He had
followed a similar career, gone into fine dining, culinary school,
find dining on the savory side, working for the best
savory chefs in America, and at the end of the
day he kind of gave it all up and had
opened this Ramen shop, and through tinkering, was just cooking
(25:04):
the food he wanted to cook. He was basically democratizing
savory food. It was, of course a noodle bar, but
it had a bunch of other random, delicious dishes on it.
And then he opened Sombar, very similar story. And what
he was doing he was cooking out loud. He was
breaking every rule that was quite frankly meant to be broken,
taking his craft from like very fine dining, savory culinary
(25:30):
terms and bringing it back to a very accessible, very
very entry level dining format. And I was just inspired
by that. Like, my favorite people that I ever worked
for were always people that were doing something that was different,
and from that, I was like just a sponge. I
want to be in this environment. I don't know why.
(25:51):
And then as I worked a little bit more and
a little bit more, was like, that's why, that's why
I learned. I learned, I learned and learn pick it up.
And what I realized through what Dave was doing democratizing
savory food, I was like, this is this is the
I'm drawn to this because this is what I'm looking for.
This is what I want to be doing in dessert
Land on bake goods Land, and Dave I was helping
(26:14):
him build restaurants and run operations Andy and n by day.
But like, if you're a baker, baker's got a bake
And so I would go home and bake right like,
I'd work crazy hours and then I'd go home in
the middle of the night and bake because it's just
like my expression. I'd come in. Also, if you're a baker,
you probably bake almost every day. You can't eat all
the bake goods yourself. There's only so much room in
your body, and you secretly love, secretly love to feed people.
(26:38):
And so I would just bring in whatever I had
baked the night before to work the next day, and
Dave would one day was just like I'm this, I'm done.
I'm done with you in true sibling land. And I
was like, I don't even know what you're talking about, dude,
what's with the attitude? And he was like, you so
clearly are meant to bake for a living, Like being
here is a waste of time. Basically like you should
(27:01):
open your own place. You know exactly what it is
in your head, I know, you know, and like basically
go And we found a spot right next to MoMA
Fuku Sambar that was an old laundromat and he was like, dude,
let's go, like this is you, this is your jumping
off point. And we got in so many screaming matches
about like he was on some work trip, came back.
We were about to open milk bar. I showed him
(27:21):
the menu and he was like what, like what is
a compost cookie? And why aren't the cakes frosted on
the sides. But also in a true way, it was
like I also know nothing about dessert, but I know
it tastes good, right, So I fed him, fed him
the cereal milk because ies bugged out of his head,
you know, And he was like, also, just go for it.
You know what else are you waiting for.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
It seems like from what you're saying, there was all
this positive momentum that really was like the tipping point
you were finally pushed into this direction of like, Okay,
we're launching milk Bar. I want to get into how
you named it milk bar and why, but first I
want to ask, like, did you ever have a rock.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
Bottom moment where you really so many rock bottom moments? Yeah?
I mean what I've learned about myself is the way
my brain works is I do have the answers, but
I oftentimes won't part of myself won't let myself see
that I know the answers, So I need pushes, Like
Dave was definitely like the push. I was like, Ash,
he's calling me on it.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Talk about an amazing mentor though that you know, the
best mentors are the ones that tell you that don't
hold you.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
Back from one hundred percent one hundred percent. I mean
my husband even was like, we're in love, we're gonna
get married, and I'm like, oh, yeah, you're right, Okay,
that's probably you know what I mean? Like, I live
in La La land in my head and I need
those forces that really like ground me and help me
sort of like mark where I am in life. But
(28:47):
I mean my rock Bottoms are everything from like working
my way up and fine dining restaurants and like you're
eating humble pie day in and day out. You're getting
no sleep. It's demoralizing, and you just have you can't
let any of the other voices in your head out.
You just have to be like try again. I mean,
it's a long distance running mentality. Just go at it again.
I'll just go on another run. I'll get a little
(29:09):
bit better tomorrow, right, like the it's not the end
of the world. I'm I was raised by a mom
who is like the best mom and also really embarrassing,
like the kind of mom that like, you know, that
kind of mom that like cheers too loud across country races,
that kind of mom. And I think she just also
raised me to be uncomfortable being embarrassed, and so no
matter what the professional embarrassment was, it was like, Okay,
(29:32):
that's fine, that's fine. I'm just uncomfortable. It's no big deal.
But I mean rock Bottom were like, you know, the
first year of Milk Bar, just like sleeping at the bakery,
you know, like getting no hours of sleep, asking for
help having no money, you know, like all the things
that you do, and yet at the same time it
also all made sense or maybe said differently. I never
(29:53):
questioned it because I think when you're when you set
yourself on a path, you really have to let yourself
be on a path and you have to just keep going.
You have to just keep going, like every day, every
hour is an opportunity to just advance and to just
believe in like the stacking mentality of like you stack
it up, it's little by little by little, by little
(30:13):
by little.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
Was milkbur an instant success when you guys opened a
kind of.
Speaker 3 (30:18):
I remember opening day November fifteenth, two thousand and eight.
I remember I had like gone home to like take
a thirty minute shower and walk my dog and be
like okay, I got to turn around and come back
in the middle of the night and start baking cookies
and in in and I remember, I mean this was
before social media. People were still using blackberries, Like the
iPhone wasn't a thing, not in the way that it
(30:39):
is now. People were there was no Google Maps, you
know what I mean, Like, I think you're probably using
map quest or something. And I remember there was a
line out the door and around the corner as I
was going to open the gate, and I remember thinking,
who are these people? Where are they coming from? They
don't know who I am, they don't know us, they
haven't even they don't even know what they're waiting in
line for the beauty of New York line by the way,
(31:01):
Still that still rings true, But you know, I think
I was really smart and strategic about using Momofuku as
my launch pad. And what people knew about MoMA Fuku
and the East Village was like you were gonna get
loud food, loud flavors. There was a boldness, there was
a heartbeat to it, right, like it was real and
it was emotional, and you could tell that we were
(31:21):
leaving everything that we had on the plate every day,
every service. And so I think people were cute up
out of curiosity. But what was unclear was whether people
would understand like what is cereal mom? Would they be
down for like a dense gouey underbaked pie. Would they
want ground coffee and pretzels and potato chips and coffee
(31:42):
in their cookie? Right? Like I remember one woman being like,
where are the cakes that Oprah's talking about? Are her
favorite cakes and I'm like, they're right there, and she's
like they look like spaceships, whereas they're not frosted on
the sides. Are they done yet? And being like, no, yeah,
they're done. Would you like a slice? You know that
sort of thing, and very quickly we just we got
a lot of love really quickly, and I think that
(32:05):
really helped contextualize who we were and what we were
trying to do, and it gave people a way to
understand what we were doing and to embrace it and
to just come by and taste it. I mean, I
think with any food, tasting is believing you can't read
about food. You have to eat it, you have to
be there, you have to witness it, you have to
see it, you have to smell it, and you have
(32:26):
to take a bite to really get it. And they
got it. But I also think the democratization of dessert
right like, everything that we do at Milk Bar still
is like it's a cookie, it's a cake, it's a
Piet's ice cream. So the leap of faith is not
in format. They're all formats that you know and love
and are really safe and ideally help make you feel
(32:47):
like yourself they bring you back, they bring you forward.
It's in how we do it, the texture, the flavor,
the flavor stories, what we make possible in the formats
and flavors that makes it really fun and curious and contagious.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
That's what I was gonna say.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
It's like you guys at Milk Bar have really redefined
traditional desserts, you know, and have blown people away with
everything that you just mentioned, from the texture is what
they taste like to just everything that you guys do.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
What is cereal milk?
Speaker 3 (33:18):
Cereal milk is an ice is a soft serve ice
cream that we sell the Milk Bar, and it tastes
like what's left in your bowl after you eat all
the cereal.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
Aut But when you're pouring it into coffee, Yes, what
is that?
Speaker 1 (33:29):
Is that like a milk?
Speaker 3 (33:31):
Yeah? So we toast corn flakes, not because I think
cornflakes are the best cereal. To be clear, everyone has
a favorite cereal. I have many favorite cereals, but it's
it is the flavor of kind of all of the
flavor of the idea of cereal milk. So we toast
the cereal and then we make basically a giant bowl
of cereal. So thing honey shrunk the kid's moment. We
(33:52):
pour milk over it and it washes the flavor of
the cereal into the milk below. But cereal milk is
kind of the reason that milk is called milk bar.
I had made it as like a plate of dessert
for one of the moment Fuku restaurants. I had this
idea and was eating it with Dave and we were like, oh,
this is a thing, and I was like, it's cereal milk.
(34:14):
Like he was like, what's it called. I was like,
it's cereal milk, And it really for me was the
it's more than baked goods. And my idea for milk
Bar early on was before we opened, was a modern
day take on a dairy queen with like a bakery
smushed in right, So like this sort of roadside custard stand,
(34:37):
soft dairy queen, soft serve machine, roadside attraction, meshed with
all of my favorite bake goods that I thought the
world needed in their lives, and so sort of like
dairy queen, milk Bar kind of like lived in that
same sort of naming convention, and I liked that it
was sort of simple and non specific, but also clear.
(34:58):
You know, I think great name.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Do that, Yeah, they do. I mean milk.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
It's such a good name, and I mean it's yeah,
it's very sensory in a way too, Like everybody knows
what milk tastes like, you know what I mean. And
it's kind of just this word that evokes like a
certain feelings, like hard to explain, but it's just it's good.
Speaker 3 (35:15):
It's textural, yeah, or there's a viscosity in a creamy stay.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
Yes. Yes, it's like it's nostalgic, which is like a
play on kind of a lot of stuff that you
guys do at Milkbark.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
I said this to you on the run.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
I think one of the most impressive things that you've
done is not only are you obviously an incredibly skilled chef, baker, cook,
like all of the things, and you've studied at the
highest level for you know, the high dining and fine
dining whatever you want to call it, but you've also
created this incredible brand that is now is it international
or just national?
Speaker 3 (35:45):
Yeah, I guess it's international. Most of our presence is
here in the US, right.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
So it's so cool to be able to sit across
from you and just like the business woman that you are.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
It's amazing.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
You've written books, you've hosted shows, you've you know, won
so much any awards for what you do. It's just
it's so impressive. You're a mom, You're really doing it all.
So it's just I could talk to you for hours.
Speaker 3 (36:08):
Until our next run, my friend, until our next we'll
go on a lot. We'll go on like a half
marathon run, and then we'll really can you know what.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
I'll let you know when I'm in Nashville and maybe
we do a longer interview.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
Then, oh, I love that.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
Maybe maybe our run ends with you like teaching me
how to bake on the.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
Cookies you we should do a bake club together. That's
really it.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
Okay until then, until then, what's a piece of advice
Christina that you have for our listeners today.
Speaker 3 (36:34):
Here's the best advice that I live my day, week, month,
year life with. And it's the secret to life is
always having something to look forward to. And that can
be big, but it can also be small, like things
that I'm looking forward to last night, things I was
looking forward to. I get to go on a run
(36:55):
and call it work. Then I get to eat cookies
and call it work, then I get to hang out
with you know. It's it is really celebrating these it's
really getting excited about little or big things that are
on your near or super far out horizon and like
milking it, like getting it, really getting excited about it,
because when you're in it, you experience it and appreciate
(37:17):
it so much more. And then no matter, you're gonna
have this in a day. Those waves are so easy
to ride, the highs and the lows are so easy
to ride because you're like, Oh, I know what's coming
up that I'm excited about. I'm not bothered by this.
I'm not bothered by a little turbulence. Thank you sing much?
Speaker 2 (37:34):
All right, guys, thanks for listening to Post Run High
with Christina. Why don't you stop buy milk bar after
this episode and fuel yourself up with some cookies or
cake or pie.
Speaker 3 (37:45):
Oh I brought you a slice of the pumpkin coffee
ca cake from the bakery. Let us go eat it.
There you go?
Speaker 2 (37:50):
Alrighty, thanks for listening to Post Run High. If today's
episode moved you, please share it with a friend and
make sure you subscribe if you don't already, I'll see
you guys next week not
Host
Kate Mackz
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