Chris Mitchell

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, this is Chris Mitchell. We're Dateline Jerusalem on Prey
dot com and this week I'm talking to my friend
Joshua Swanson, who is the editor in chief of Worship
Leader magazine. And first of all, josh Joshua, tell us
about yourself.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
Hey, Chris, thanks for having me on. It's good to
be with you. Well, I guess I'm a current resident
of Jerusalem. That's probably the most interesting thing about me
right now. Married to my incredible wife Rachel, who is
studying at Hebrew University archaeology. So she got me on
a student visa, so I get to live in the
Holy City for a year, which has been incredible.

Speaker 1 (00:35):
What's been What has that been?

Speaker 2 (00:37):
Like the cliche saying about like when you visit Israel
and you see the sites, the Bible comes alive. I
mean that that is definitely true. It's a cliche for
a reason, as they say, but never more apparent than
this last week or two weeks ago. I guess it
was last week during Holy Week. Man, it was really
special to be saying in Jerusalem reading the Gospels, tracking

(01:03):
the story of Jesus from Bethany across the Kidron Valley
up to the temple, flipping the tables, specifically paying attention
to the parables that he preached during Holy Week, and
then of course the Passion and the Death, the Resurrection,
and be able to actually see it from where I'm
living and walk the streets and meditate on it. I

(01:25):
was in the Old City on Saturday. I mean, it's
that was special. That was something that I recommend to
any Christian. You have to come to Jerusalem.

Speaker 1 (01:33):
For Holy Week.

Speaker 2 (01:34):
It is so special. So that has by far been
the most most special.

Speaker 1 (01:38):
Would you say that the Bible comes alive when you hear.

Speaker 2 (01:41):
I mean not even a yeah, yeah, like three D
in color for sure. The I mean just the Jerusalem limestone.
It's so different from any other city I've ever lived
in or really visited because of the colors and just
the you know, the stark contrast between the green and

(02:04):
the and the palm trees and the color of the
stone and everything being the same color. It's just that
alone is incredible.

Speaker 1 (02:11):
Yeah. Liz, my wife says that before you come to Israel,
reading the Bible is like reading it in black and white,
but after you come here, it's like reading it in color. Yes,
would you regree?

Speaker 2 (02:21):
She's correct, I confirm Liz knows what she's talking about.

Speaker 1 (02:27):
So, but you're the you're the editor in chief of
Worship Leader of magazine. What's that like and how long
have you been the editor in chief of that?

Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yeah, twenty twenty one. Uh, it was when I picked
up that position. It's it's a real honor and a
privilege to work with the artists of the church in
that way, to try and steward what the Holy Spirit
is doing in the in the in the worsh worship
movement around the globe, and talking to songwriters and artists
and getting to know practitioners in the local church. It's

(02:58):
a it's a real honor, and I get it to
sit in a really interesting seed and see very unique
things that a lot of people don't get to see
because of the people I get to hang out with.
So it's a real honor.

Speaker 1 (03:10):
One thing that really has struck me, and we've talked
about this before, is that from your position, you're in
contact with people worship leaders all over the world. I mean,
from every continent except Antarctic, I'm sure, or maybe not,
but you have a unique perspective to talk to these people,
see what they're creating and you can see and kind

(03:33):
of connect to the dots to see what Holy Spirit
is saying to these worship leaders all over the world.

Speaker 2 (03:39):
Yeah, it's really fun. So in the last month I
did a podcast interview with a worship leader in Oslo, Norway,
a worship leader in Leon, France, a worship leader in Lagos, Nigeria,
and a worship leader in Jerusalem, and another worship leader
in I think he was in London or Birmingham, and

(04:00):
so yeah, so all over the well then of course
Nashville after that, every few episodes you got to fit
back in and get Nashville back in there. But so
then talking to those people I ask a lot of
the same questions towards the end of the interviews because
I really am curious to hear what the Holy Spirit
is doing within their life and within their local context

(04:22):
and their local community.

Speaker 1 (04:23):
And that is.

Speaker 2 (04:25):
Probably the most unique aspect of what I get to do.
They all talk about similar struggles within the local church,
and you would think, you know, that's kind of universal
in terms of just the struggle of being a Christian
right now in our very very non Christian secular world.
But what's really cool is the songwriting piece. And I've

(04:45):
been trying to figure out so I kind of uncovered
this before I read it in scripture. And what it
is is that essentially the Holy Spirit downloads to our
songwriters around the globe the same thing. So COVID or
just after COVID, everybody was singing Revelation four or Revelation six,
like it was over and over and over and over.

(05:07):
Cast your crowns, Cast your crowns, Holy, Holy, Holy. It
was like we all needed to be reminded of who
God was. And it was songs all over the globe
that we're talking about the aspects of God right which
pre pandemic. It was all personal relationship. Lord, I need you,
and Lord, I need you to work in my life
and I need your healing and which we still need
those things. But it was like the whole globe was reacting.

(05:28):
And now with everything going on in the world, all
the songwriters and this was again Leon France, Oslo, Norway,
and Sindme Dela in Legos, Nigeria specifically, those three specifically
said to me that they're writing songs about the return
of Christ. I was like, what I'm like talking to
this Legos Nigerian amazing songwriter sin me Deli look her up.

(05:51):
She's fantastic sin si n me delea me d e
l e so good sind me delli she I was like, so,
what are you writing about? I'm thinking she's gonna you know,
who knows. She's like, you know, I really think that
Jesus is coming back any day now. I'm writing songs
about Jesus return. And I'm sitting in Jerusalem looking at
the Temple mount going, oh my god, it's gonna be.

(06:13):
I've been in a front row seat if you're right. Well,
and then this is kind of a long explanation, Chris,
but I've been thinking a lot about this and then
I finally found it what I'm experiencing in scripture, which
I've read this before, but it's in second Chronicles twenty five.
So David and the commanders of the army set apart
for the service the sons of Asaff Hayman Jeduthan, who

(06:35):
were to prophesy, accompanied by liars, harps and symbols. So
David had was setting apart. The worshippers in front of
the army right to go ahead of them, and their
role was first to prophesy. So he understood back when
he was organizing worship leaders for the first time, he

(06:59):
understood that their first role is to prophesy, and in
order to prophesy, you have to hear from the Lord.
So what is the modern songwriter for the church? I
think they're first Chronicles twenty five to one. I think
they're the voice of prophecy for the church.

Speaker 1 (07:17):
So are these songwriters right now in Legos or Oslo
or wherever prophesying the return of Jesus.

Speaker 2 (07:27):
Yes, yes, they are.

Speaker 1 (07:32):
Well that's profound.

Speaker 2 (07:34):
I mean, there's no other way to say it. Yes,
I can't really expand on that. I mean, that is
exactly what they're writing about. They're having dreams, They're waking
up in the middle of the night thinking about Jesus return.
I talked to another amazing worship leader, she's here in Jerusalem,
and she said, I just had a dream and it
keeps coming back that I woke up in the middle
of the night and I ran out and looked at

(07:56):
the Temple mount and he had come back. And I
felt a sense of combination of joy obviously and then
sorrow because there were so many things that I didn't
do to prepare. Right, it's that old saying of the
thief in the night. Right, So she had that sense,
but that I just had that conversation just before Paysock,

(08:17):
just before passover.

Speaker 1 (08:19):
Well, how do you think if the return of the
Lord is so nigh, how should we prepare?

Speaker 2 (08:25):
That's so good, We'll start with doing some worship.

Speaker 1 (08:29):
Right.

Speaker 2 (08:30):
The good friend of mine was explaining the stations of
the Tabernacle, and I had never really understood it from
his perspective, but he's you know, he talks about and
this is actually biblical as well. I was just reading,
like I said, the story of Passion Week, and I
believe it's in Matthew, want to say, twenty six just
before Jesus and the disciples when they leave the Last Supper.

(08:53):
Just as they're leaving the Last Supper, it says that
they sing a hymn and then they go to the garden.
And so I think that's the order. It starts with worship.
We should all be in a posture of worship, in
a posture of praise, preparing our hearts, because that's what
we're going to do for eternity, right, And I think

(09:13):
that's step one is prepare your heart, be in a
posture of worship and praise, be in constant worship. I'm
not talking about for all those of you out there
listening that we're like, well, I can't sing. Well, I'm
not even talking about that. You know, praise and worship
doesn't have to be singing, right, It's really a way
we view the world, a way we look at the world.

(09:34):
It's a posture that we carry. We can speak praise
and worship. We can read scripture, we can read Psalms
as a way of worshiping. We can encourage someone as
a way of worshiping, we can intercede for someone as
a way of worshiping. And so I would just encourage
all of us to be in that mindset.

Speaker 1 (09:52):
Well, we have, I guess, an advantage in a way.
I mean, we're sitting in my office right now and
we're looking over at the MoU of all of us.
Your apartment has an even more spectacular view. But what
would you say to people that are so far away,
you know, and how same idea, same way they can prepare?

Speaker 2 (10:14):
Well, yeah, so I'll bring it back around to Simmy Dele.
So she's a songwriter that writes mostly about nature, a
lot of her songs that she writes are about finding
God in nature. It's a beautiful thing that she's got
going on. Where she started as a scientist and she
thought that that's where she was going to end up,

(10:34):
and God actually brought her over to songwriting and becoming
an artist. And a lot of her songs are about
finding God in nature, finding God and the sound of
a bird singing, finding God in the breeze if it
breeze as it, you know, rustles through the tree leaves.
And I think that's really profound. So wherever we are,
we can look out our window and see God's creation

(10:55):
and we can find it.

Speaker 1 (10:57):
So how can people find out more about Worship Leader
magazine and and what you do?

Speaker 2 (11:02):
Oh thanks Chris. Yeah, worship Leader dot com is our
is our u r L. Worship Leader dot com is
our r L and uh. We have a really cool
podcast called The Walk, which is a devotional podcast for worshippers.
So it's basically devotionals by the artists of the church.
So those are two ways that you can find us,
but mostly worship Leader dot Com.

Speaker 1 (11:23):
Another big thing that's coming up is Pentecost or Shove
a Wote, which is Hebrew for weeks and they there's
something that you are part of, and tell us about that.

Speaker 2 (11:36):
Yeah, this is based in I'm going to steal this
from my very good friend Les Moyer. Les is a
legendary music and our guy. He's responsible for bringing Waymaker.

Speaker 1 (11:49):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (11:49):
He and a few others are responsible for bringing Waymaker
to the world, which also came out of Nigeria. Uh
Sinach wrote that song. But his favorite psalm is Psalm
for verse three, and it says he put a new
song in my mouth, a song of praise to our God.
Many will see in fear and put their trust in
the Lord. And he has devoted his life to ensuring

(12:13):
that the world sees the Lord through the New Song.
And as a part of that mission in his life,
we've been connected with a group called Empowered twenty one,
which came out of RU and several other evangelism groups.
Really all got together a few years back and said,
you know what, whatever we disagree on when it comes

(12:35):
to theology, we can all agree on the fact that
Jesus is the Way, the truth in the life, and
no one comes to the Father except through him. So
let's rally around spreading the gospel. Let's take the next
ten years, so from now, which is this started in
twenty twenty three, until twenty thirty three, when which will
be the two thousand year anniversary of Christ death, let's

(12:57):
spread the gospel to all eight billion people in the world.
So you've got evangelism, You've got the Four Square Church,
You've got Baptist World Alliance, you've got International Prayer Connect,
you've got Global Evangelism, Evangelist Alliance, Campus Crusade for Christ.

(13:17):
Why wham I mean, it just goes on and on
and on. Integrity Music, of course you version has involved
our magazine, Worship Leader, magazine, Salmi's Mission. So a bunch
of organizations that have rallied around this idea and for
us our part on the worship side, myself, Jonathan Brown,
who's the chief global officer at Integrity Music, Werner Natchigal

(13:38):
who's a very good friend from the Go movement in Berlin,
Jonathan John Shabbaglin from Palmi's Mission, and Les all rallied
around the idea of let's get out of the church
on Pentecost Sunday or Pentecost weekend. People aren't coming to
the church. People that need to hear the good news
of Jesus. Are just not walking into a church, or
at least most of them aren't. Where are they there?

(14:00):
Out in the streets, and worship does shift the atmosphere
wherever you take it. So the idea is simple. We're
calling our worship teams from every local church to pick
up their guitars and walk out onto the street on
Pentecost Saturday. So the Saturday before Pentecost, which is June seventh,
get out on the streets. Rally or in your neighborhoods,

(14:22):
in your towns, find a town square, a corner, grab
a few friends, grab the guitar, grab some prayer leaders
and evangelists and sing Waymaker out on the streets and
sing a worship set list. You know, take an hour
and just worship in public and see what God does
as a way for us to shift the atmosphere that weekend,

(14:43):
as a way for us to usher in the Holy Spirit,
as a way for us to allow the Holy Spirit
to do what He does so well, which is to
introduce people to Jesus.

Speaker 1 (14:52):
Does this mean that the fields are white under harvest?
That's good.

Speaker 2 (14:56):
Yeah, Let's go sing a song and see what what
the Lord.

Speaker 1 (15:00):
Does, what kind of reaction have you had in times
past when people do go out on the streets.

Speaker 2 (15:06):
You know, Chris, that's another movement that's really happening around
the globe. Ryan Horton is one that I think of
in New York City. There's an entire missionary organization in
Belgium where it's a worship mission and all they do
is worship on the street. It's people are starting to

(15:28):
realize like, oh yeah, of course, like these words that
I am singing are truth, most of them are coming
from scripture, and so it's really working. Of course, there's
resistance and there's uncomfortableness and all of that, but it's
really working, and it's starting to pick up momentum where
people are realizing like this is really can worship can

(15:48):
be used as a weapon, and that weapon can defeat
darkness and bring white into any space, like.

Speaker 1 (15:54):
You said, actually change the atmosphere there on the streets
or is it like it does even at a church? Right?

Speaker 2 (16:00):
And then people walk through that atmosphere and they go,
why am I feeling this way? Why am I attracted
to this? What is this?

Speaker 1 (16:06):
And that's a.

Speaker 2 (16:07):
Huge open door for all of us to do what
we're commanded to do, which is to tell people about Jesus.

Speaker 1 (16:13):
So you would have worshipers there as well as people
who could pray with people who could evangelize people.

Speaker 2 (16:19):
That's exactly right, that's and that is the vision is
to try and bring all of the giftings that we
have within the church right intercession and prayer, worship, song,
prayer of course, and evangelism. Those who really have a
gift of breaking down barriers and going right to the
heart and sharing the gospel. Bring them together and bring

(16:41):
them out on the streets and not be afraid of
going into society and bringing the light.

Speaker 1 (16:48):
So if as a pastor out there listening, worship leader,
how would they find out more information?

Speaker 2 (16:54):
Thank you? Yes, go movement, Go movement dot world, and
you'll find the worship tab there and you can sign
up for a street corner. You can sign up for
a city in a street corner and say hey, I'm
going to be here. That way other Christians can find
out about your efforts and join you. But that's all
we're asking. Go world, Go movement dot world.

Speaker 1 (17:18):
Well, it's exciting, that's not that far away. It's just
a few weeks away. What else is on your heart.

Speaker 2 (17:26):
Just encouragement. Be encouraged. The times may seem dark, or
the world may seem as if as the media would
like to tell you, social media would like to tell
you that things are not going our way as Christians,
but it couldn't be further from the truth. I just
read an article the other day that gen z is
more interested in the Bible and in church, and more

(17:50):
open to going to church than any generation in recent history.
So there is a huge movement of God happening around
the globe. So be encouraged. You're on the right team.

Speaker 1 (18:00):
Do you see revival coming?

Speaker 2 (18:01):
Oh? Yes, yes, Lord bring revival.

Speaker 1 (18:04):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (18:05):
So I've been working heavily in the United Kingdom as
well in Europe. I have a real passion for that region,
and I have a lot of close friends up in
those regions, and it feels as if the regions where
there is more oppression is likely where the revival will
come from. So I'm not one to place bets, but
if I was a betting man and I was betting

(18:28):
on revival, which seems kind of weird, I don't think
I would advise that, but I feel like it's going
to come from there. I'd be like, it's going to
come out of Europe or come out of the UK.

Speaker 1 (18:38):
Some people could get discouraged or about the situation as
it is right now in the UK or in Europe
in particular. There's adherents of another religion that had been
oppressing some things. But there's hope.

Speaker 2 (18:56):
There're so is hope. A good friend of mine. His
name is Antony, and of course he's a proper British gentleman,
so his nickname is Tiggy, and I just I'm like,
why aren't Americans as cool as people.

Speaker 1 (19:09):
In the UK.

Speaker 2 (19:10):
People in the Brits are so much cooler thin us.
So my friend Tiggy said to me, you know, Joshua,
something about us Brits when our backs up against the wall.
He said, we don't really pay much attention until our
backs up against the wall, right case in point World
War two, Then we buck up and we fight, fight, fight,
And I was like, okay. He's like, and that's what's
happening with the church in the UK right now. He says,

(19:32):
we're getting squeezed and people are strying to realize their
back is up against the wall and they're going to
start fighting. And I don't mean physically fighting, but I
mean standing for spiritually fighting, thank you, and standing for
the truth and standing for the Word of God and
not being afraid to be a Christian and to proclaim
the truth.

Speaker 1 (19:48):
So well, in particular, I mean the UK, if you
put it this way, has deep wells of revival that
goes back hundreds years, hundreds of years. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (19:57):
Well, and our American friend end as an American you
and I right, we forget where we got our faith.
There are big brothers and sisters. If it weren't for
the UK, and it weren't for those believers coming across
on those boats, we wouldn't have our Christian faith. So
you're absolutely right, and it has. It has a beautiful
history of revival, a beautiful history of correcting history, right,

(20:20):
like what we're leading on slavery, on the anti slavery movement,
and yeah, the Welsh Revival and Bangor Abbey and there's
there's there's just so many great, great revivals that have
come out of that island tonight, and I'm ready for
the next one.

Speaker 1 (20:35):
Do you see in the worship world less emphasis on
performance and more emphasis on worship?

Speaker 2 (20:44):
Now you're gonna get me in trouble Chris hot button
topic if you're into worship, Yeah, because because they don't
see that. I don't see enough of that. I see
that too much of our and it's not necessary rely
the fault of our community. Right, You're a young, amazing,

(21:05):
god gifted, talented artist, songwriter and you love Jesus and
you want to sing about Jesus. Well, what do you do? Right?
What's the system that we currently have in place for you? Well,
you serve at your church and then you realize, well,
I think I have a call to the nation.

Speaker 1 (21:18):
So what do you do?

Speaker 2 (21:19):
You go to Nashville and you get plugged into a
system that is a secular business model.

Speaker 1 (21:24):
Right.

Speaker 2 (21:24):
I have so many amazing friends in Nashville, So I'm
not ripping on Nashville or the system, but in the end,
it is a secular system.

Speaker 1 (21:32):
Right.

Speaker 2 (21:33):
Then the labels have profit motivations, not heart motivations. Now
that doesn't mean all the people that work there are
that way, not at all. In fact, I've met the
most sincere, amazing people. But I do feel like it's
time for a little bit of let's say, revival within
the worship space, where we invent new more kingdom focused

(21:53):
ways of getting our songs out to the world that
are less motivated by CCLI top top ten lists and
more motivated just by a song that I wrote for Jesus,
you know. And quick history lesson for those of you
listening that love nineties worship. A lot of nineties worship

(22:14):
was written. Almost all the big songs nineties worship, you know,
Matt Redman's stuff, Darling checksh out to the Lord. All
of those songs were written for a local congregation. They
weren't written for the global church. But God decided that
these songs were for the global church, and they kind
of got plucked out of obscurity and brought to the
global church for one reason or another. Well, that's not

(22:36):
what's happening now. Songwriters are sitting in rooms writing songs
that they hope will be the next song for the
global church, because we've built this highway for that, this
system for that, which I don't think is the right
motivation for writing songs to the Lord. I think the
right motivation is something's happening in my local church and
God has put something on my heart to write about
related to that or something in my personal life, and

(22:58):
I'm just going to do that without a spectations.

Speaker 1 (23:01):
I think you mentioned before that Shout to the Lord
was actually grew out of a crisis in the church, well, in.

Speaker 2 (23:08):
A crisis in Darlene's life. You know, Darlene and Mark
were at literally at the end of their rope. You know,
they were going through a bankruptcy there. I don't know
if it was a full bankruptcy, but they were having
financial troubles, they were having family troubles, they were having
church troubles. This is this is long, very early on
in Hillsong history. And she wrote that song as a

(23:31):
declaration to say, I don't care what happens. I'm going
to shout to the Lord. I'm going to proclaim his goodness.
And man did she ever she shouted really loud. The
whole world, The whole world hurt her. I've never been
in an environment before like that where I was sitting
in a conference and there was only three or foreigner people,

(23:52):
but Darlene was there, and and the speaker was talking,
and and of course Darlene was sitting there, and so
he made some joke about shout to the Lord, and spontaneously,
just the whole audience just started singing shout.

Speaker 1 (24:06):
To the Lord.

Speaker 2 (24:07):
I'm like, what that must be like for her? Wherever
she goes, people are like, shout to the Lord. I mean,
that's awesome, pretty.

Speaker 1 (24:15):
Special, Joshua. Any final thoughts?

Speaker 2 (24:18):
God bless you, God bless your ministry here, Chris and
what CBN does. We love you guys and are so
proud of how you've been standing for Israel and holding
this ground here in Israel, So way to go.

Speaker 1 (24:31):
Keep it up.

Speaker 2 (24:32):
And for those of you listening that haven't been to Israel,
what are you waiting for? Get over here. It's amazing,
it's life changing. And yeah, anyone listening that is a
songwriter or a prayer leader, an evangelist, please think about participating.
We're trying to get one hundred million people saved.

Speaker 1 (24:50):
In one weekend. You want to close this in prayer.

Speaker 2 (24:53):
I'd love to Father, thank you just for this moment
where we can share stories and testimonies that hopefully encourage
and hopefully point back to you. And I pray that
we've done that here today. I bless all the listeners
that you would stern them revival, that you would stern
them a boldness to share their faith, and that you

(25:16):
would bless us all and keep us all safe in
these end times moments, these end times days. I pray
this all in Jesus name.

Speaker 1 (25:23):
Am amen. And finally, how do they get a hold
of Worship Leader magazine and this effort on Pentecost?

Speaker 2 (25:31):
Yes, so it's worship Leader dot com and then the
pentecost is go Movement dot world and you'll see the
worships app. But if you get confused, just go to
worship Leader dot com and hit me up.

Speaker 1 (25:45):
Joshua Swonson. Great to be with you.