Today with Jeff Vines

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
We're all clothed with Christ, no matter what color, We're
clothed with Jesus. Romans five tells us that God sees
us through the lens of community, how we treat one another,
that we are God's new community in the world.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
Today, Today, Today, Today, with Jeff Fines, pastor, apologist and
Bible teacher.

Speaker 3 (00:26):
Hello and welcome. This is Today with Jeff Fines. My
name is Bill. Thanks for joining me. And in this
episode we continue with Pastor Jeff from his Reset series
as he reads from Joshua chapter seven. It's a message
about serving God completely and speaking out against evil aimed
at our neighbors, about seeing all people through God's eyes

(00:49):
and loving them as God does. You can find all
the messages in this series wherever you listen to your podcasts.
Let's join Pastor Jeff now for the remainder of this message.

Speaker 1 (01:10):
Our entire world is filled with systemic corporate evil and racism,
the casts in system in India. Have you ever heard
of the untouchables. You can actually enact violence against a
race of people in India and not be held accountable
by the legal system. And there is tribal superiority even
in Africa, even in Zimbabwe, you have the Shonna who

(01:31):
make up the majority of the population. The minorities are
they into bele when needs arise, the indobles in bulaway
our shelf decide there's no money put into social programs,
in the food and the clothing and education. It's everywhere,
which makes me cringe when another part of the world
points the finger in America because it's so hypocritical. We

(01:52):
are living in a world of systemic racism and injustice.
The difference is we in America are supposed to do better.
Why because we claim to be based upon Judeo Christian values.
We say, love God and love your neighbor as yourself.
So while we christ Followers must repent for the sins

(02:13):
of our ancestors, whose system, to some degree we still.

Speaker 4 (02:17):
Live in, we can always rejoice in.

Speaker 1 (02:20):
The fact that we also have ancestors who truly followed
the way of Jesus, saw injustice and lived to defeat it.

Speaker 4 (02:29):
In fact, Christians throughout the.

Speaker 1 (02:30):
Centuries have been responsible for major movements against injustice, attempting
to right the ship when it has gone wrong, and that,
in fact, is my hope today. But it begins with
admitting that you and I are part of a systemic

(02:52):
corporate evil where racism is a reality. Remember what I said.
We define systemic year or racism by saying a system
that excludes and marginalizes people on the basis of race,
even though most people in the system are not intentionally
trying to do it. Can I just show you some
of my discovery. I have probably read over a thousand

(03:14):
pages in the last five days, and I have also
met with five distinct African American leaders in our community
and church members. Okay, A recent report tells us that
the racial wage gap is the widest it has been
in nearly four decades.

Speaker 4 (03:34):
Let me read to you a quote from Economic Indications.

Speaker 1 (03:37):
The wage gap today is worse now than it was
thirty six years ago, said Valerie Wilson, director of the
liberal leaning think tanks Program on Race, Ethnicity, and Economy,
and the report concludes that having a college degree actually
worsens the gap, counter to the idea that education is
the key to more equal society. The quote goes on

(03:58):
to say that while black male college students entering the
workforce in the nineteen eighties had less than a ten
percent disadvantage compared to whites, by twenty fourteen, similarly educated
black men started their first jobs at a deficit of
roughly eighteen percent.

Speaker 4 (04:13):
We were making headway.

Speaker 1 (04:16):
From the years of two thousand and eight till twenty sixteen,
things got progressively worse. Now, can I point out something
with no agenda here?

Speaker 4 (04:30):
It happened.

Speaker 1 (04:32):
When the Democrats were in power, Pastor Jeff, Why would
you say that you had me until then. I'm trying
to say to you that both parties, Republicans and Democrats,
used a black community as a means to their end,
but when they get into office, they do nothing about it.
You say, well, I don't think a black man should

(04:53):
get a job just because he's black.

Speaker 4 (04:54):
That's not what this article is saying.

Speaker 1 (04:57):
It's saying that if you have two people who have
the same qualifications, why does the white man get the
job a disproportionate amount of time. There's only one conclusion, folks,
A system that favors one race over another, a type

(05:18):
of internal bias that you may not even realize that
you have a discrimination on the basis of color. Do
you know, Jeremiah the prophet told us this woe to
him who builds his house without righteousness, and his upper
rooms without justice, who uses his neighbor's services without pay
and does not give him his wages.

Speaker 4 (05:38):
I was amazed to learn.

Speaker 1 (05:41):
That some of the schools in our land who claim
those who stand up most loudly against racism and for equality,
and yet three percent three percent African American applications review
and accept it three percent. Will we Christ's followers have

(06:02):
eyes to see that some of our policies, whether intentional
or unintentional, will keep the black community struggling.

Speaker 4 (06:09):
For its life. Forget about thriving.

Speaker 1 (06:13):
They're simply trying to our brothers and sisters, Our Black
brothers and sisters are trying to survive, and we, the majority,
are part of that system, whether we want to be
or not, whether we admit it or not, and are
therefore to some degree liable. This is not a political issue,
it's a biblical one, but it does have political ramifications

(06:37):
because how does the Bible address this? The Gospel should
help us get beyond individualism into corporate care and concern
for all people. Romans five tells us that God sees
us through the lens of community, how we treat one another,
That we are God's new community in the world.

Speaker 4 (06:56):
So the question is what is this community going to
do to.

Speaker 1 (07:01):
Defeat systemic racism and corporate evil in our world, especially
in a democracy where we have power in voting, rites
and a voice.

Speaker 4 (07:12):
Isaiah one says.

Speaker 1 (07:13):
Learn to do good, seek justice, correct oppression, bring justice
to the fatherless, plead the widow's cause. The only way forward,
the only way is if all of us, black and
white get some sense of we together, that we in

(07:34):
the white community must begin to see the black community
as us, not them, because you will always fight for
your own. Paul saidingulations, So in Christ Jesus, you are
all children of God through faith. For all of you
were baptized into Christ. Have clothed yourself with Christ. Do
you see what he's saying. We're all clothed with Christ,

(07:56):
no matter what color, We're clothed with Jesus. When you
refuse to help a brother, you refuse to help Christ.
There is neither jeune nor gentile, neither slave nor free,
nor is there male or female. And you are all
wanting Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you
are abram seed and heirs. According to the promise, Paul

(08:19):
tells the church in Corinth, so that there should be
no division in the body, but that its parts should
have equal concern for each other. If one part suffers,
every part suffers with it. If one part is honored,
every part rejoices with it. You see, here's the problem.
You're guilty. I'm guilty to a degree. We all have
these biases. We got to come to terms. I've started

(08:42):
to ask the question, if that was my son, how
would I want him to be treated? And then it
dawned on me. He is my son, my son in
the faith, the sons and daughters and the bike community,
they are my children. And you say, yeah, but what

(09:04):
about those outside the church? And we're going to be
the good Samaritan. We're to pay the cost for banda
jing a wound? Can I say something at the same
time to this generation Jobs twelve twelve says, with aged
men is wisdom, and in length of days is understanding.

Speaker 4 (09:24):
You see me as old, Okay.

Speaker 1 (09:26):
The Bible says that since you see me as old,
that perhaps it would be wise for you to at
least take note of my words, because the only thing
worse than apathy is amnesia, and violence will get you nowhere.
History has shown us this again and again. Nelson Mendela
knew that, even though he had been punished for years
no good reason in prison, he forms the Reconciliation Commission.

(09:51):
Why because he knows that violence breathes violence. That is
the truth of humanity. Mendela said, you will achieve more
in this world through acts of mercy then you will
through acts of retribution. He also said resentment is like
drinking poison and then hoping that will kill your enemies.
Can I ask you who accomplish more widespread change than

(10:13):
any other leader in human history? The answer Jesus, How
did he do it? Sacrificial love? When I see policemen
engage in protesters, peaceful protesters, loud protesters, but peaceful, and
they kneel down before them to say to them, we

(10:35):
see you.

Speaker 4 (10:38):
That is the way forward. But when I see.

Speaker 1 (10:40):
People burning and looting in violence, here's what goes through
a policeman's mind. I will fight you. It is my job.
It's a matter of pragmatism. President mcgaby, Sorry, Cugabis, I
get confused here. He followed suit in Ruwana and he
invited people like Rick Waring and myself. Rick Roarn played

(11:02):
a huge role as well, and he invited the gospel
in why I ask Cogomi why the Christian worldview? And
the answer is because Christianity has the worldview of equality
and reconciliation, something you do not find in worldviews. But
the question is, even though we find it in theory,
do we find it in practice. It worked in Rwanda

(11:24):
because the Christ's followers began acting it out. Unfortunately it
was after the fact. There has to be a great repentance.
We have to acknowledge our sin of apathy and non action.

Speaker 4 (11:39):
If we hope to transform the nation.

Speaker 1 (11:42):
But I tell you, I am shocked when I hear
people that I respect think that you can change anything
with violence. What I say now, I say with the
utmost concern and love. Looting and burning buildings just confirms
the prejudice of many of your enemies. Protesting injustice by

(12:06):
destroying another life and another business that's in your own
community is nonsensical. That's like blowing up an abortion clinic
because of the injustice of murder.

Speaker 4 (12:16):
So let me get this straight.

Speaker 1 (12:17):
You murder to protest murder, Why on earth would you
destroy the businesses of people who've experienced just as much
injustice as you have. Violence never compels to a calls
it repels. Doctor Martin Luther King Jr. Said, in spite
of temporary victories, violence never brings permanent peace. You may

(12:37):
feel good about yourself in the short run, but in
the long run, you've done more damage. He also said
that we must not allow our creative protests to degenerate
into physical violence, yelling good, screaming, a little yeah anger.
I think so violence never. And I'm not saying this

(12:59):
to judge anybody's home. I'm saying this out of pragmatism.
You will not achieve your goal because the only thing
worse than apathy is amnesia. And the good news is
we live in a democracy. Most of us don't realize
the voice that we have. Our vote is a powerful thing.
We must take a good look at our local government,
our city councils.

Speaker 4 (13:18):
We must persuade them.

Speaker 1 (13:20):
We must elect leaders who will direct funding toward infrastructure,
not merely welfare. James one twenty two says, do not
merely listen to the word and so deceive yourselves. Do
what it says. Hearing is just not enough. Action has
to be taken, Okay, Pastor Jeff, all right, let me
think about this. This is a lot for me to

(13:40):
kind of digest. But what do you suggesting we do.
I'm glad you asked Number one. Use your voice and
your vote to bring change. Please speak up when you
see injustice. Vote for local leaders who will address a
broken social injustice system. Demand that they do. Let them
know we're watching, We see you two. Can you just

(14:04):
admit your bias, You're implicit bias as an employer, as
an employee, as a neighbor. Can you do some serious introspection?
Can I tell you something that just happened recently in
our own church. And I don't do this to shame anyone.
I do it to hope that this can be a
new day we can change. Recently, a Bible study in

(14:26):
our own church, in one of our home community groups,
there was a Bible study occurring. There was an African
American male who pulled up in a car outside the
Bible study. He was there because he was the father
of one of the young girls, picking her up. After
the study was completed, some of the people in the

(14:47):
house called the police because there was an American man
in a car waiting outside on the street. No, not
on our watch. Come on, we're better than this. It's
time don't get defensive. By the way, again, do you

(15:07):
know why we get defensive because we hate racism. We
love our country. We can't stand the thought that racism
is systemic, and we're embarrassed.

Speaker 4 (15:19):
But it's not enough. We have to do something.

Speaker 1 (15:25):
Pastors complain religiously, no pun intended, about people who come
into the church and they praise God and they shout
and they have a good, feel good experience, and then
as soon as they walk out, they go back to
their old way of life Monday to Saturday. The Black
community is weary of seeing us go to movies where

(15:50):
we celebrate the defeat of racism, but when we walk out,
no change, nothing's different. Can you admit your bias? Can
you use your voice? Can you practice hospitality to your neighbor.
We have members of the black community in our church
and we are growing by the week, and I am happy.

Speaker 4 (16:13):
Can you.

Speaker 1 (16:15):
Practice hospitality? Can you invite our brothers and sisters from
the black community into your home and get to know
them and listen to some of the issues and some
of the problems so that we may be made aware,
so that we can have equal treatment for all our
brothers and sisters in Christ. Can you practice hospitality to

(16:35):
your neighbor for can you deal with the wickedness in
your own heart? Can you realize sometimes you have the
tendency to say, you know, my life's going well.

Speaker 4 (16:44):
You know I don't really need.

Speaker 1 (16:45):
All this pressure. I got enough pressure. Can you deal
with the wickedness of apathy?

Speaker 4 (16:51):
Do you know?

Speaker 1 (16:51):
The verse that we've used often is to whom much
is given, much is required. You and I, as white people,
have definitely grown up in a system that favors us.
The sin is when we don't use the favor that
we've been given the responsibility that comes with it to

(17:13):
speak on behalf of those who are not being heard.
If you really love your son and daughter, if they
have no voice, you will speak on their behalf. The
virus we need in America is the one that spreads

(17:33):
every time we get near each other, the virus of love,
mercy and justice.

Speaker 4 (17:40):
For all I've been wondering, is this God's wake up
call to us?

Speaker 1 (17:47):
Has God perhaps permitted the virus and the racial turmoil
to show us that we will not be able to
survive as long as we are apart?

Speaker 4 (18:00):
You know?

Speaker 1 (18:00):
John Wooden, amazing coach, said that your day is not
complete until you do something for someone who cannot repay you.
Will you speak for those who have no voice. Our schools,
our universities, our politicians, our social programs, our justice system
has let our brothers and sisters down. Let it not

(18:21):
be said in the coming generation that the church let
the black community.

Speaker 4 (18:27):
Down as well.

Speaker 1 (18:30):
One final thing, there are so many people talking about
social injustice right now. That's a good thing, but you
know what's bad, there's so much smugness and self righteousness
in their attitude. Yes, we Christians must get alongside people
and listen. We have a broken criminal justice system. In fact,
I personally believe that the hatred toward police is systematic

(18:54):
of a great problem of disease, and that is the
justice system needs overhauling. There are so many good police,
these men and women who are part of that system,
and it's broken and it's putting them in harm's way. Unfortunately,
an awful lot of people who talk about systemic racism
are incredibly self righteous. I can't believe what I'm seeing

(19:14):
by this generation. What's it called cancel culture? In other words,
if you don't agree with me and everything I say
and I do mean everything, then go away. I'll defriend you,
I'll put you out of my social media side. Do
you know what that's called right? When you do that,
that's called a dictatorship, When you remove anyone who disagrees

(19:36):
with you, do you realize what you're doing. You're discriminating
against someone who's not like you. You're doing the very
thing that you say you're standing against.

Speaker 4 (19:48):
And where's the dialogue?

Speaker 1 (19:50):
If we don't do this, if we separate ourselves, if
we only flock together with birds of the same feather,
how on earth will we hear one another?

Speaker 4 (19:58):
How can we move forward? Be careful? Perception matters.

Speaker 1 (20:05):
I had coffee with a friend, a couple of friends
of mine this past week. Now, I don't necessarily agree
with everything that we talked about. In fact, in one case,
I believe that there's a little pie in the sky
going on of how you think things operate. However, we
were able to learn some things from each other. Iron
sharpening iron. One of my friends that I have a

(20:28):
great respect for, looked me in the eyes and I
thought he was about.

Speaker 4 (20:32):
To pry, and see that speaks volumes.

Speaker 1 (20:34):
He wasn't angry, he was deeply wounded, and he said,
Pastor Jeff, so far your words are not enough. There
needs to be more. When he said that, I thought
of Mother Teresa, the years she spoke at the Harvard graduation,
and this old, wrinkled dressed in white Albanian woman decided

(20:58):
she would talk about abstinence the Harvard grads and they
booed her.

Speaker 4 (21:03):
How do you boom Mother Teresa? Right?

Speaker 1 (21:06):
What they didn't know is waiting behind the columns were
some children that have obviously they were older now, but
they have been rescued by Mother Teresa on the streets
of Calcutta. When they heard the booing, they thought the
speech was over and they were there to surprise her
after the speech. So they came running out onto the stage,
and she knelt down in the middle, and she loved
and hugged and they hugged her, at which point the

(21:27):
Harvard grads gave her a standing ovation. Why because they
had seen her hands. My friend's comment reminded me, until
the black community seized my hands, my words are useless.
And then I remembered the words of Martin Luther King Jr.

(21:49):
Who said, in the end, we will remember not the
words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.
And that's why I preach this message this weekend to
the black community. To my brothers and sisters, I say,
please stay, we love you, we see you.

Speaker 4 (22:15):
You are our family. Father.

Speaker 1 (22:18):
I pray that this message as it goes out, will
be heard, that the words will be judged by a
heart that people know if there's anything that I've said
that's been offensive, I pray the Holy.

Speaker 4 (22:35):
Spirit will use these words.

Speaker 1 (22:39):
To convict where conviction needs to take place, to forget
where there needs to be the process of forgetting.

Speaker 4 (22:48):
And grace.

Speaker 1 (22:50):
That we would not miss the bigger point that we
have brothers and sisters in our community that are suffering,
that are struggling, and may we move beyond flowery language
into acts of service. May we stop by the side

(23:11):
of the road, listen to the story and bandage the
wound in Christ Jesus.

Speaker 3 (23:23):
You've been listening to Today with Jeff Fines. Next time
we'll bring you a new message from pastor Jeff. You
can listen to more messages like this. Just search for
Today with Jeff Fines wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 4 (23:38):
You met me

Speaker 2 (23:56):
Today Today Today, Today with Jeff Fines