Are You Dealing With a Narcissist?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula is an expert on narcissism.  

She is a licensed clinical psychologist and Professor of Psychology at California State University, Los Angeles. She is here to explain what narcissism is and what can be done when you are dealing with someone who is a narcissist.

Plus, Cheryl gives an apology to a former Dancing with the Stars partner.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm pretty Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of Pretty

(00:20):
Messed Up on I Heart Radio. I'm your host Aji
McLean with my beautiful co host share Bear, Cheryl Burke,
and the dashingly handsome uh So. We have a great
show in store for you guys. Today we have a
very special guest. Welcome to the show. Dr Romani, Thank

(00:40):
you so much, thank you, thank you. My name is
a j Uh. My co hosts are Cheryl Burke and
Renee Alizondo. Welcome, Welcome to the Pretty Messed Up Podcast.
Just a little quick backstory, So all three of us
are in recovery. We are so burn We've all crashed

(01:01):
and burned uh some more than once, and we ended
up out the other side, and uh, we started to
do this podcast. You basically talk about UH and share
our experience, strength and hope, talk about recovery, talk about
life on life's terms, and really just talk about mental health. So,
um again, welcome to the show. And uh, I would

(01:24):
love for you to kind of tell all of our
listeners a little a little bit about yourself and UH
and what you specialize in. Yes, this is fascinating. Absolutely.
My name is Dr rominader Voss a lot. I am
a clinical psychologist. I'm a professor of psychology. I've been
a professor at cal State l A for twenty two years.
I am also an author. I've written three books. I

(01:45):
have a YouTube channel on narcissism where we get several
million views a month, which speaks to how compelling that
this topic is. And so a lot I'm a subscriber
of your YouTube channel. Thank you, Cheryl, thank you. So
I feel I'm very honored by that. And so my
work is really about educating people about mental health because

(02:07):
most people are never going to have access to psychotherapy
or go into therapy, whether for reasons of stigma or
lack of availability. But the reason I chose to focus
on narcissism is it's a topic that is completely under
addressed in the world of mental health. Nobody talks about it,
and yet once people understand it, they actually could really

(02:28):
avoid a whole world of hurt. And so it is
something that once you get it, this is not meant
because what I want people to do is get it
and then be able to set a boundary, and a
lot of people waste time and hope they think I
can love this person out of this I can change them.
They're going to change. They're not going to It's just
a pattern that's resistant to change. And people can waste

(02:50):
the entire lifetimes doing this and going through these toxic
cycles over and over again. So really it's sort of
like a a mission to get people to understand and
this and then, armed with that information, make better choices
in their family relationships, and their romantic relationships and their workplaces, friendships,
you name it. Um. I'm just so happy you're bringing

(03:11):
awareness to narcissism and narcissists because I I swear after
watching a few of your episodes on you on your
YouTube channel, I was like, oh wow, I've dated a
few narcissists and I've also danced with a few narcissists
in my lifetime, and it's it's um nice to be
able to I guess put a name to the um.

(03:32):
Would you call it abuse? I think that when you're
in a relationship with the narcissist, it does. It qualifies
it with something we call narcissistic abuse, which is a
sort of ongoing cycle of It's not how we traditionally
think of abuse. It can we can have violence involved,
but often not. It's very much emotional abuse where you're
manipulated and you're gas lighted and you're minimized, and you

(03:55):
just sort of quite you always live in a state
of doubt and always live in a state of anxiety,
and keep blaming yourself and thinking it's you and not them.
Dr Can you j D mind? Now? I was gonna
say so. Narcissism is a term that's thrown out willy
nilly by a lot of people. Someone's a little cocky,
Oh he's a narcissist. Can you define it for us?

(04:18):
Because I think there's a big difference between someone being
overconfident versus narcissistic personality disorder or however it's termed. Maybe
you could define it for us absolutely, because in fact,
being narcissistic is quite frankly, the opposite of confidence in
many ways. So to be a narcissist is to lack empathy,

(04:40):
to be entitled, arrogant, grandiose, constantly seeking validation and admiration,
to be very superficial, um, to be very controlling, to
be very prone to rage, especially when a person is
frustrated or disappointed. Um. There's also a real sensitivity to criticism,
but they can dish it they just can't take it,

(05:01):
And all of it is really coalesces around this sense
of insecurities. Are very ecocentric people who are deeply, deeply insecure.
So all of these defenses, the entitlement, the grandiosity, look
how great I am are all meant to be a
protection against this really deep core insecurity. And so that's
really what the dynamic is. So, yes, a narcissistic person

(05:25):
may look cocky, but a lot often don't. They actually
just look angry, or they just look unempathic. But the
reason they sometimes seem like the most confident person in
the room is because they're trying to overcomfidencate or charming.
Right damn, oh god, you're definitely partners. No, I'm the

(05:47):
furthest thing from But I will say this, I'm curious
because you know, look as an alcoholic and as a
drug addict. Um. You know, I wasn't born this way, okay, Um.
This was something that was learned, whether it was environment,
whether it was low self esteem you know, renee, and
I use a term piece of shit is um um,

(06:09):
you know. But I'm assuming in the case of narcissism,
it's the same thing. You're not born a narcissist. You're
not born a racist. You're not born These are all
things maybe by your environment, by your upbringing, by like,
you know, a lot of these these specific qualities that
you just named. Um. You know that grandiosity that insecurity

(06:32):
that have to be bigger than, have to be better
than um. Yeah, where do where do you believe in
your studies for so long that it actually stems from?
Do you think it is environment? Do you think it
is parental? Do you think it's nature or is it nurture?
Like what where does it really stem from? Do you
think it's developmental? It's it stems it's a social developmental issue.

(06:56):
So you know, the most likely culprit is people who
come There's a couple of different pathways, and at one
it's sort of in one one set of cases we
see people actually had rather traumatic origins. But more than anything,
we've see people who have childhood's characterized by inconsistency, instability,
parental unavailability. I'm not saying that their unavailability was up

(07:18):
because they were working. I'm saying they were emotionally unavailable.
They may have had all the money in the world,
have been home all the time. It's being emotionally unavailable, disinterested.
What you see are kids that are sometimes very overindulged materially.
They get stuff, they get trips, they live in a
nice way, but they're completely under indulged emotion. There's a

(07:39):
detachment from the so so like from the parental side
of things. You know, it's basically here, I'll buy you
this car, shut up, leave me alone, and you're kind
of have to fend for yourself. So it really is that,
you know, or maybe it's divorce or you know, kids
seeing like an abusive relationship, you know, like and like

(08:02):
the entertainment business that always want the validity somehow and
like having to always be on And do you find
that there's more narcissists in this type of business than
there are and others professions. The entertainment industry probably has
one of the higher proportions of narcissism because it's a
validation seeking industry. Right, It's all about look at me,

(08:22):
look at me, look at me. And while some people
may say, oh, I'm trying to give back, at the
end of the day, they want to be seen first,
and that's sort of an afterthought. You tend to see
less narcissism and helping professions. Right, so social workers and teachers,
you're going to see less of it there because those
aren't such heavy validation giving them compensated. I would say
the same about politics, politicians, that's got to be a

(08:46):
real close. Corporations, athletes, celebrities, yeah, uh huh and um,
and corporations corporate leaders. So bringing it back for a
second to outcoholism, h I think I think the jury
is still out whether or not you're born with alcoholism.
But so I just wanted to clarify that. But my

(09:09):
question is is too So let's say schizophrenia, right, is
that something you're born with or is it development untol
as well, So there's no mental illness out there you're
born with. Does that make sense? Every single mental illness
out there, even when there's a strong genetic component, it's

(09:32):
what we call an epigenetic involvement, meaning that alcoholism is
a great example. Addiction has a genetic component, schizophrenia has
a genetic component, component bipolar disorder. These are all mental
illnesses where the genetic component is actually not insubstantial. But
even still, every single person who has first degree relatives

(09:53):
with those mental illnesses don't go on to develop them.
In fact, there are identical twin pairs out there where
one person is an addict and one person is not
one that does not. So it's both. You have to
have both or you're never it's never going to be
purely genetic. That has never been sure. That's why I
was saying, I don't for for me again my opinion,

(10:15):
Like you said, Renee, the jury is still out. That's
why I don't feel I was born an alcoholic, but
I believe that something happened during my childhood or something
happened as I was getting older that I decided to
go down that path and it and it and it
took me hook line and seeker. I have seen families
that have, you know, alcoholic parents that they have two

(10:39):
or three kids. One of those kids ends up not
being an alcoholic. It could be the same thing about narcissism.
It could be the same thing. Like you're saying, it's
developmental as as a and it's you know, it is
based a lot about your environment. So doctor, you're saying
that the predisposition alone doesn't guarantee you're going to go

(11:00):
down that road. It's it's your nurturing, it's the the traumas,
all that stuff. You know. My question also is I'm
fascinated with this because I do believe that Western civilization
kind of fosters narcissism to a certain degree, almost almost
rewards it. That's reported in our in our Line of Sobriety,

(11:26):
it says that we just have to get honest if
we're going to find sobriety, if we're going to be
able to get sober and stay sober. It actually says
in our book, there are some who are constitutionally incapable
of being honest with themselves. Is a narcissist constitutionally in so,

(11:47):
how does the narcissist better themselves? Right? So that that
that that characterization of people who are constitutionally capable of
being honest with themselves, that feels like more of a
definition of narcissism than it does to me of addiction.
To be frank with you, and that constitutional incapacity to
be able to be vulnerable, because honesty with oneself is

(12:09):
actually vulnerability, isn't it. It's the willingness to be able
to face whatever is that thing that's bigger than you
and say I'm this, i I'm I can't do this.
I am not this, This is this is what I
you know, this is where I'm I'm weakest or more
most fragile, that inability to make that that um that
that sort of vulnerability known, because it's a core of shame,

(12:33):
isn't it. Because most narcissists are shame driven, and the
idea is that if the world ever sees their vulnerabilities,
their weaknesses, that then they will be completely overridden with shame.
So narcissist spend their lives trying to avoid that shame reaction. Well,
it's impossible to do because the first time someone calls
you out on stuff, and people are going to call
you on on stuff, it happens to all of us

(12:54):
every day. They keep flying into rage because they cannot
be honest with themselves because they really do feel that
that if they pull away the suit of armor that
they'll completely implode. Do narcissists go to therapy? Though? Like?
Do they actually? So? Why do they do that? If
they don't want to better themselves? They go to therapy
usually to handle an issue like they've just had a

(13:15):
break up, somebody filed a lawsuit, the career is not
going as well as they want. They're not getting what
they want right, and so they're hurt and they're sad
and they're angry. And sometimes it's a an ultimatum. A
spouse will say you get therapy or I'm out. You
keep cheating, you need to get therapy. So they But
usually every narcissistic person I've ever seen in therapy came

(13:37):
in because of a relational issue, and usually because a
relationship ended and they didn't want it to end, or
they were shocked because a partner actually cheated on them.
Usually they were the cheater and they were completely destabilized
by that, and so they come in for that, and
then it just basically becomes this entire victimized narrative of
how life has been terribly unfair to them. The first

(13:58):
time the therapists really pushed is hard for them to
do deep vulnerable work. That's often when they drop out.
A narcissist are about more likely to drop out of therapy.
Let me ask you, I'm just curious, Kenny ken a
can a narcissist be manufactured? Meaning like, for example, and
this is this my personal opinion, our previous president, Okay,

(14:24):
actions of narcissism, actions and and then and then narcissistic
reactions with his followers. Um, is that manufacturing other narcissists
by basically narcissist? Are you to become a narcissist? No? Okay,

(14:45):
So here's the thing. You're not going to make this
in adulthood. This is sort of where this person kind
of was pretty well, it's almost like jello. The jello
was mostly set by late adolescence. Okay, So if you
have a good, solid, kind forty year old, you're not
converting them over to the dark side right now. If
all of a sudden you gave that forty year old

(15:06):
endless riches and anything they ever wanted and say we're
your feet are never going to touch the ground, you know,
have cars and drivers and chefs. Maybe they'll become a
tiny bit entitled, but they'll they won't lose that core empathy.
The empathy is baked in. That's like, that's like you're
not going to get that out. So the people who
got manipulated by really um charismatic political leaders, those almost

(15:29):
have they their enablers. They're almost like cult members. They're
the ones who are following the leader blindly into the darkness,
and they're pretty much parroting what the narcissistic leader is saying,
but they definitely don't have the same muscle behind them.
I think though, a lot of people who are drawn
to those narcissistic leaders, I think a significant proportion or
narcissistic themselves, and I think the rest of them are

(15:52):
deeply insecure and just want something to blindly follow because
they it's almost like a parasitic relationship, like those fish
that swim at the whales and sharks take their food.
It's their parasites, and so they sort of pull the
power that the narcissistic leader is getting, and they feel
powerful because they're close or they're following the narcissist. You're saying, yeah,

(16:18):
I mean, would you say that it would actually maybe
happen to like kids, Like, for instance, I was sexually abused, right,
and I feel like I was groomed, And I feel
like that's the time to really brainwash in a way
somebody when you're in I don't know what, like four
through ten or whatever it is years of age. Um,

(16:38):
I'm just wondering if it's easier to do this to
little kids in a way so that you know they
do look up to adults and then they soon they
are basically looking up to these people who teach them,
you know, good or bad, it doesn't matter as far
as personality traits go. Is that something that like, if
your dad is a narcissist with you end up most
likely being a narcissist ya, So if you yes, exactly so,

(17:02):
narciss narcissistic parents either beget narcissistic kids or the most anxious,
sad you know, um, insecure kids. And more often than not,
narcissistic parents have anxious kids, not narcissistic kids. So when
you have a narcissistic parent is a really painful legacy
because you never feel like you're enough. They never see you,

(17:25):
they never hear you, they never notice you. And so
most kids, yeah, most kids walk out of that feeling
like they always spend their adulthood trying to measure up,
or they go after partners who are not interested in them.
They keep playing out that parental dynamic. So dr Um,
it sounds like all of your your books, your podcast,

(17:46):
or your YouTube channel is geared towards helping protect the
victims of narcissists, right, I would say that, Yet what
I'm trying to do is I'm trying to educate. I'll
be frank with you though, And now I do also
have um, I have videos that are actually like if I,
if you suspect your narcissistic, here's ten things you should
start doing right away. It's so that's what that's my

(18:10):
that's my question is is their hope for a narcissist? Right?
Like before you answer that question? So every narcissist is entitled,
but not everyone that's entitled is a true narcissist. So
for a true narcissist with the disorder, is their hope
for them? Is there? Have you seen evidence of someone

(18:31):
becoming less narcissistic because they did one through ten or
whatever treatment? Is there a treatment? You know? Okay? So
my sure, if I if you, if you forced me
in accordance that you have to give me a one
word answer. The answer is going to be no. But
I'm gonna tell you hope is on a continuum, right,
and changes on a continuum. So I have never seen

(18:56):
the level of change you would need to create a healthy,
sustainable intimate relationship. I have seen enough of a change
to make somebody a more tolerable coworker. Do you see
what I'm saying so that the high stakes of an
intimate relationship or even a close family relation, that sort
of shift in empathy and self reflection I haven't seen,

(19:18):
but are there are that One example of maybe making
a coworker more tolerable is that that they're kind of
faking it then at that point, or are they truly
changing at their core? I think that I think that
what they can what can happen is I'm not sure
how much of a core changed there is. I think
what you tend to see a bit more of is

(19:39):
a willingness to stop, be mindful, maybe take responsibility, acknowledge
like I can see which part of this is mine?
You got to remember one of the big problems with
narcissism is everything is so reflexive and reactive and quick.
They lash out, they blame other people. They don't think
about it. So I could be in therapy with them
and we'll have this pristine therapy room and there's no
stress in there and we can role play. But when

(20:01):
real life happens and they really get disappointed, they feel
like someone's not nice to them, or they feel like
their girlfriends not paying attention to them, that's when they
have that snapped the moment I have. I do believe
there's something I call a narcissistic rock bottom. And in
that rock bottom for narcissistic people, they take a look
around and everyone's gone. Their spouse has left, their kids

(20:22):
are no longer speaking to them, their careers are shot.
They are an older person living alone. Now. In still
those cases, those folks still blame the world all of
you make me sick, you know, versus the five percent
to say, maybe I need to take responsibility for the
fact that I'm the only one. That I'm the one

(20:42):
who's left standing. That's about how often. And I still
have to tell you. One of the most interesting cases
I ever had was a person very, very successful. So
this was not a person lacking money, so it wasn't
down and out in that way, but who got to
later life late sixties, had some of the most pre
eminent success you could imagine. And he then said, we
went did the work, and he said, you're telling me

(21:03):
to push back on my narcissism. I have to care
about what other people think. I have to listen to
what they say. I have to always be on with
this empathy, and I have to be present and then
he's like, Okay, I'm going to think about this, and
for another week. We'd worked together for a while and
he comes back. He's like, I can't do it. He's
I got filed for divorce. I I if I. He's like,

(21:24):
but here's what he said. I don't want to hurt
her anymore. He's like, I do I. He's like, I
can't stand listening to this. I don't are a little
stuff and like it doesn't matter to me. And he'd
been cheating on her, so he's like, he broke, he
got he filed for divorce, he left the woman he
was having an affair with, and he actually did manage
to make a little bit of inroads with his kids,
which was interesting. But he's like, I don't have what

(21:45):
it takes to have an intimate relationship. Because he's like,
I don't care. It's like I don't have the bandwidth
for this. And at my age he was sixty eight
at the time, like there's no way I'm going to
get there. And he said, but I don't want to
hurt people. So you know what, he's like, I'll hire
someone to have sex with me. I got plenty of friends.
I don't need this relationship thing, and like you just
defined my real father. He passed away two years ago. Um,

(22:06):
rest in peace. But he is exactly what you just said,
Like he could only sleep with a woman once. Um.
And he owned a bunch of strip clubs in Thailand,
and he lived in Thailand so that people wouldn't talk
back to him because he was a very successful lawyer
here in the Bay Area and he was known for
his um. Like he reminded me of Trump, you know, unfortunately,

(22:27):
And it's scary because after watching your videos, you know,
you're like, well you if you have a parent, But
mind you, I wasn't. I mean, I was close to him,
but it was more of a friendship, right because he
left when my parents divorced when I was too. So, like,
how much is there a chance that I'm a narcissist? No,
so I think that what a lot of people say, well,
he's got to run in families. No, not, like I said,
the majority of people who have narcissistic parents become insecure

(22:51):
and anxious and feel like they're not enough. Okay, but
they're open about that. So and interestingly, narcissists are also insecure, anxious,
and feel like you're not enough, but they overcompensate with
all this entitlement and grandiosity and arrogance. People people who
are not narcissistic, who are insecure and anxious, they just
be anxious and feel like you're not good enough and

(23:12):
get into unhealthy relationships and try to fix themselves and
fix other people. That's what they do, do you know,
I'm pretty sure. I know. I've known a few narcissists,
and what I find compelling is that they are the
wrecking ball, but they accuse everyone else of being the
wrecking correct correct, just just like how do you reach

(23:33):
someone like that? You don't and see that's things you
don't And and by the time someone gets into a
therapist office, like I said, they come in and they
almost are stood. They their grandiosity leads them to think
that the therapist has a magic wand to tell them
exactly the magical things to say to make everything go back.
And when we say no, this is time for you
to do a deep dive because you this is this

(23:56):
is a two way straight you contributed to this, or
we need to do the deeper word, they'll often pooh
the whole thing. They'll minimize the therapist like this is nonsense,
give me a pill, dog, like a very contemptuous and
dismissive of the whole process. So as a recovering addict,

(24:23):
and you know, obviously a lot of addicts, they were
the wrecking ball, just destroying things in their path all
throughout their disease um before they got sober. Do you
think that it is possible as an addict to have
narcissistic tendencies but never go full narcissism? Like, is is

(24:50):
it possible or no? So here's one of the biggest
struggles we have in substance. In the substance use area,
A significant proportion of addicts, substance people with substance use
disorders are narcissistic. Now that's on a continuum, right, and
this is why we have that revolving door through rehab.

(25:10):
The people who are narcissistic without substances, the vulnerability that's
laid bare, it ain't gonna work, so they're more likely
to relapse. I have worked with so many families where
there was a family member who was an addict. So
I was walking the family through the process and they're like, great,
they're gonna go into rehab, They're gonna come out they're

(25:31):
gonna be sober and everything's gonna be great. So because
they were tired of the anger and the lashing out
and the rage and the sensitivity and the hypocrisy and
the denial, the projectional they were sick of it. Family
member goes to rehab. They come out now they're sober
and angry and rageful and full of denial and projection,

(25:51):
like what is happening? And I said, oh, honey, you
know rehab in the world. I'm going to handle the
narth right. And that's the challenge now. I think that
narcissism really really drops the likelihood that long term sobriety
is going to be sustainable. It's really really challenging now
in in a significant proportion of people with histories of addiction,

(26:13):
they're not narcissistic. They find humility through the process of sobriety.
And in fact, when you look, for example, at the
step of making amends, that making amends is almost impossible
for a narcissistic person because if they're incapable of taking
responsibility for their wrongdoing, and it's such a critical step
in recovery of any kind, but they're incapacity to engage

(26:34):
with a program is really what because you're narcissistic, really
again makes long term sobriety almost impossible. And I'm sure
all of you have been in recovery. You know the
difference between an addict or or a person in sobriety
who is narcissistic and a person who's sober and it's not.
There's a world of difference both groups. We have in

(26:55):
our experience. I've been in the program for a long time.
It says the root of our problem is self centered
fear right, and so, but we watch people outgrow their
self centeredness through doing this step work that we do,
and a big part of it as being of service,
getting out of yourself. Right. But if we get back

(27:18):
to the narcissist, it's so you're saying a narcissist has
is incapable of um stays in denial. Like like everything
we're talking about right now, everything we're talking about right now,
all the symptoms, all the characteristics, all that stuff. They
could hear all that and think that's not me, or

(27:41):
or do they hear it and go why I feel
sorry for the narcissists, but that's not me, Like I'm
above that. Wow, you don't you don't reach them, and
that's why it's so, so so difficult to treat, and
why the people who fall in love with them or
are their family members, are so frustrated because they're saying,

(28:02):
I don't know what to do, and I have to
tell them. I pretty much give people two main principles,
radical acceptance and realistic expectations. This pattern is so rigid,
it's not likely to change. So if you're gonna love them,
you're gonna have to love them around this and don't
set yourself up for a fall. You've got to understand
that this is going to be limited. It doesn't go deep.
People who are narcissistic do not have the bandwidth for intimacy.

(28:24):
They look at relationships as a place to get their
needs met. They're what we call very instrumental relationships. They
view people as conveniences to bring them what they made,
whether that's power, pleasure, profit, whatever it is they need,
they're going to relationships for that. Once they're done with people,
they're done with it. So back in the day, back
in the day, I there was one person I thought

(28:45):
for sure was a narcissistic. It seemed to have zero
capacity for empathy, right, It didn't matter death, It didn't
matter dead dogs, whatever, They just didn't have it. And so,
but they could act like they're empathetic at times, and
I always felt like they were just trying to market themselves,

(29:07):
like self aggrandized by saying, oh, I felt so sorry
for this person, and then you realize you really didn't
because the thing you said after that contradicts that. So
my question quickly, my question quickly is are their gradations?
Could someone be a little empathetic just here and there,

(29:29):
you know, sprinkling here and their true empathy? So are
their gradations? Is there like a hardcore narcissist, and then
there's a mild n narcissists you're starting to like. So
narcissism is on a continuum, and at its lowest levels,
you really have that person who's just the annoying party
guest who kind of sort of talks about themselves too

(29:51):
much and makes everything about them and the sort of
holding cord and they're not harmful, but they're annoying. At
the highest, most stream levels, you're talking about people who
are machiavellian, almost seemingly psychopathic, and how and how cold
and calculating they are. But You've got to remember too,
that narcissism has subtypes of the different types of it.

(30:13):
What you when you classically what the kind of narcissists
were largely talking about now is what we call the
grandiose narcissists. These are the larger than life sort of
sales people, the impresarios. Look how great I am. Come
on and see my car, Let me show you my beach. Hold,
look how my girlfriend is. That's the grandiose narcissist. But

(30:34):
then there's something we call the covert narcissist, and the
covert narcissist is also called the vulnerable narcissists. These are
the folks that are really victimized. They feel like the
world is out to get them. They're very sullen, they're
very resentful, they're very brooding. They're not nearly as charming
and charismatic, and and they their entitlement comes out as

(30:55):
the sense of the world owes them something. They're mad
that they never got what they felt that they were
entitled to, and they're always just grumble, grumble, grumble at home.
Then there are the communal narcissists. The communal narcissists are
the people who actually put themselves out there and get
their validation by ostensibly doing good things in the world.
But the only reason they do good things in the

(31:17):
world is to get validated and be viewed as a hero.
But they're actually not very nice people behind closed doors.
The nice things they do are to get validation. Motives
their motive, it's it's entirely a motive. And but here's
the thing. It's not even just that a person can
say I like the validation of being a humanitarian, but

(31:37):
then they're nice to other people. That's not what we're
talking about. The communal narcissis is actually not nice to
other people. Like let's say they were running a charitable endeavor,
they'd be screaming and yelling at the poor volunteers, but
when they were on stage at the galla would be
totally dazzling. God. That's pretty much half the music industry. Yeah,
that's what we said at the beginning, right like it's

(31:58):
it's and the dance ball dance world, especially the men.
I must say. I mean, I know that there are
women narcissists out there for sure, but like you know,
it's it's all about the validity. Um, I have a question,
So how do you deal. Let's say you have a
family member, um who is a narcissist, how do you
deal with them? Like? How do you do that without?

(32:18):
What are you saying? I guess I always you know
you don't. I tell people, if it's very clear that
someone in your midst is very narcissistic and it's really
not amenable to change, don't engage, Like keep your engagement
very minimal and superficial. Goodness, this weather we've been having
is so warm. How you're doing with this heat? Like?
Can you imagine they painted their mailbox red? Who would

(32:40):
want a red mailbox? It's all superficial because the first
time you put yourself out there and talk about something
you're vulnerable about, they'll either be not paying attention or
have contempt for you, or make fun of you or fight. Yeah,
So I tell people, don't do that. Don't engage or
you're gonna get hurt. And unless you want, I mean,
because you're just gonna keep it's just going to be

(33:00):
a cycle that plays over and over. I'm just curious, really,
because when you were talking about the the high the
high profile, very very wealthy uh client that you had,
you know, by by them saying I want to get
out of this to basically protect these people that's showing empathy.

(33:24):
So then they're not cured necessarily, but they are in
turn showing some signs of of recovery in retrospect. So
then if somebody is let's say, on the lower end
of the narcissistic totem pole, per se, uh, do they

(33:49):
have a better chance of possibly being you know, yes,
being being recovered as opposed to the lost cause at
the top of the pole that there's just no chance
in hell for. So let's put this in a sobriety framework. Okay,
there's not a day that the three of you do
not commit to your sobriety, right, sobriety is not a

(34:12):
day and it's done and I'm finished. Every day you you,
you work your program every day. You're committed to sobriety.
Every day you realize this thing is bigger than you.
And whether you use mindfulness, whatever, and you you draw together, whatever,
you go to meetings, you work on it every day.
That same principle applies to people who are narcissistic. They

(34:35):
need every single day, every single conversation, every single interaction,
to pay attention. I need to value what this person
in front of me is saying, this person in front
of me is valuable. They are another human being. I
need to reflect on how my behavior is impacting them.
Every single time it doesn't happen. This is such again,
you all of you did it. It's possible, but you

(34:57):
do the hard work every day. Seventy percent of people
who go into substance use treatment will relapse. I think
if we had the equivalent of that for narcissistic people
would go backwards. It's just really, really hard. So when
a narcissist wants to do a therapy session or you're like,
don't waste your time, No, I don't. And I actually

(35:19):
have multiple narses. I I actually work with more narcissistic
clients than almost any therapist. I know. I'm fond of
these people. I actually am genuinely fine. Would I want
to be married to them? Hell? D you don't have
to answer the question. You have? No, I know you haven't.
Oh yeah, I have. None of us are immune because
we all have our vulnerabilities. And in my vulnerability, my

(35:41):
own backstory which led me to want to be seen,
it was very easy for me get sucked into love
bombing right and then I was like, yeah, I know
you know what you you romeny, you need to do,
you need to physician hell by self kind of thing.
But no, they they will never Um if if I
would not want these people to be my friends, does

(36:02):
that make sense. I'm fond of them the way I
would be fond of anything or anyone is vulnerable. I
see them doing the work I really do, and I
can call them out because I'll tell they're like, I
don't like what you're saying. I said, buddy, I gotta
wait with sponder patients. You want to go, I'll kill
in your spot like this, so don't do that. I
think I started dating my dad, which we're all narcissists,

(36:23):
so I think that's exactly what happened. Yeah, okay, do
you know I was gonna say, I do, unfortunately, have
history with someone that was very narcissistic. And what I
noticed was they're very manipulative, very crafty, and they love
to ensnare you in their web? Right, so they create

(36:47):
a web. And then suddenly it became you're the only
person I can talk to, You're the only person that
gets me. You're the only person, and all of a
sudden you're like, oh, man, I gotta be there for
this if I'm the only one. And but but in retrospect,
I could see and now now I could see it
a mile away when somebody is trying to manipulate me

(37:09):
to be their savior, you know, and I'm first A
I know I can't be. But I guess for me
the thing that that's really illuminating, Like I understand how
to protect someone from a narcissist, Like I protect myself
very well when I could see someone's manipulating me. But
I guess if if someone is like a top tier narcissist,

(37:35):
all we can do is create a distance between us
and them. Nothing we're going to say or do is
going to help them. No, why are you looking at me,
Renee while you're saying all this that's that's right? Isn't
that what a narcissist would say? Doesn't he have traits

(37:58):
of an no a J. Let's be clear, I've known
a J for over twenty years. Uh, You'll you'll have
a hard time finding people more empathetic than non judgmental
and non judgmental and empathetic. And to me, that's that's
what when I look for friends, not that I look

(38:18):
for them. But one of the deal breakers for me
is if someone doesn't have the capacity to empathize for
the less fortunate, I feel like we don't. We can't.
Really we were not going to get you know, correct
or they have or you know, we're gonna take that
one step further. It's not even not empathizing, it's also
having contempt. And that contemptuousness is a very classical part

(38:39):
of narcissism, almost like like that there's something so dehumanizing
about that, and that dehumanizing quality of narcissism is actually
quite dangerous, you know, not even an exam close relationships
is like, let's say, it can come off as snobbiness, Cheryl.
So it could be the sort of thing where you're
talking to someone and they're they're, um, you're telling them

(39:02):
your families maybe from a small town in the Midwest,
and say, hey, you know I'm going there. You want
to join me? And you know, we live in this
small town in the Midwest, and like, what is there
The only restaurant that eat there is like what Chili's? Yeah,
I don't think so like that. It's very like it's itchy.
I mean, it's one thing to make fun of it, like, oh,
I come from a town that. Yeah, I grew up

(39:26):
in a listen. I love going to all the small
town places, so when people make fun of it, it hurts,
you know, and also you know, I'm thinking of my
own self. That wasn't It's not sarcasm, it's contempt and
I know it. Like and you see this, it comes
out Renee made the comment before. Maybe it was I'm sorry,
Maybe it was a j that you you're not born
a racist, right. I would argue that almost every racist

(39:48):
out there is a narcissist because of their willingness to
just have no empathy for entire groups of people. So
it's the same kind of origin. Yeah, that makes a
lot more sense. It's interesting to me that that that. Again,
I had someone in my life that became contemptuous, like

(40:10):
you said, and today I called people like that vampires
because there seems like they're trying to steal your energy.
This particular person. If I said Spielberg, he would say
Francois Truffaux, If I said Scorsese, he'd say Fellini. But
it was always talking down to me to make me

(40:31):
feel less than he is, because he was feeling so
little that he was using me to kind of build
himself up. You're right today I don't. I look, I
have empathy for people, but I don't have a lot
of tolerance for people that talk down to people because
it's only designed to do one thing, to make you

(40:51):
feel bad. But it's all from insecurity, right, It's all
because the exactly it is they use everyone as their
own step lives us, you know, so they step on
our heads to lift themselves up. And that's not that's
not the grounds for a healthy relationship. And I think
Michael has always been not that. You know, everyone should
get out their pitchforks and hunt all the narcissisms. I've

(41:12):
got a few, rather understand, understand what they're about, what
they're made of, and that none of us are going
to be the ones to rescue them. So cut them
a wide berth and stop engaging with people who aren't
good for you because this is not good run. So
looking forward, right, let's say there are people it's baked

(41:32):
in the cake. It's it's just that's who they are now,
who they are. But A. J. And I are both parents, right,
we have young kids, both of us, and so what
can a parent do to not foster narcissism in your child.
A couple of things. You want to create a family

(41:53):
environment that is that is um full of consistency, predictability,
and emotional availability. And by that I mean I don't
care how hard people are working in the time you're
with your child. You're lucky, guys, you're present with them.
When your child is disappointed, you don't try to fix it,
but you let them cry it out. You never ever

(42:15):
shame emotion, whatever emotion a child is saying, like you
don't you never say don't feel that way. You don't
need to feel that way. Say sweetie, tell me more
about that. Let them cry it out, let them see
your tears, let them see your vulnerability, especially as father's
children need to see men's vulnerability. And boys so often
get the message and I have their emotions shamed. This

(42:36):
entire epidemic of narcissism, so much of it is in
a shaming emotion and men, and we have to allow
boys to show emotion and not pathologize that emotion. I
think it's allowing. It's loving children unconditionally, not filling the
need to steer them in a specific direction of their interests.
If the kid doesn't want to play soccer, don't say, well,

(42:57):
what's wrong with your throuder? That's fine, you're out that
way to harness what interests them and cultivate those interests.
Don't judge your child. I mean, this all seems so
basic and fundamental, But in order to be that kind
of a parent, you need to be in touch with
You have to be willing to be vulnerable. You have
to be willing to be vulnerability, especially in the Asian,

(43:19):
in the Asian American culture. My mother's Filipina, you know,
it's not something that they show right. So and then
with my father being a narcissist, it's all I had
to really learn um that vulnerability equals courage and not weakness. Correct, correct,
And I was where I grew up in a South
Asian family, there's a lot of a g iman. You're

(43:39):
an immigrants child, the aspirational bar is so hot. You
you don't want your kids to have had the struggle
as you did. And so there's very much you have
to do this. You have to do this, and if
you don't do this, then you failed, you know, versus
I have the luxury having, you know, having done those
hard yards with my own children to say this is
you know, my job as your mom is to always

(44:00):
give you a soft place to land. That's me and
the rest is for you and this is always here.
You go take the risks. We want to raise kids
who are willing to walk far away from the nests
with their hearts full of empathy and with a really
strong sense of self. How do you feel about this,
like next this next generation, this new generation of you

(44:21):
know kids you know now well not the tiktoker's but no,
but even still people that actually are not staying silent anymore,
people that have a voice, people that have a emotional
connection to each other. Um, do you feel like where
we're headed with this new generation that there may be

(44:42):
less of the of this narcissistic epidemic or do you
think that's it's it's it's kind of throwing darts in
the dark. It's just gonna keep happening and it's never
gonna just subside, which which I'm more worried than not worried.
And I'll tell you why. We have created a world

(45:04):
where validation has become not only everything, but it's become
bread and butter at this point. And what I have
to say social media has become a very dangerous place
because not only does it leave a lot of young
people feeling deeply insecure and wondering if they measure up.
Self worth is being measured in followers and likes and

(45:24):
validation and all of that versus this building of a
you know, a strong core sense of self. And then
you know again they grew up with it. Now, I
have to say, as I look at kids who grow
up with it, one thing that my my own daughter
sometimes costume me. They're like, you know, you've got to stop,
you know, sounding the warning bell all the time. Mom.
We grew up with this. We're not getting ourselves worth

(45:46):
from this. This is how we communicate, you know. She's like,
my daughter will say, this girl is so beautiful. Mom.
I don't look like her. I don't feel bad about me,
but I'm really happy that she's pretty. Inch's having a
good time. And I was like, you're drown any But
she grew up with it. She grew up with this
intry right. But I have to say that social media
for vulnerable kids is getting to be a dicey spot.

(46:09):
I do have to go to your point, though, A
J and I really agree, and you said something very
wise there, and that this is a generation that is
giving more permission to emotional connection, right, that they're actually
being more open with emotion. We're seeing more conversations about
mental illness. I think that we're destigmatizing some of this.
People therapy is becoming more normal, normalized, and larger and

(46:29):
larger spots of people. So I think, for as much
as I'm pessimistic at times, there's also an optimism. So
I think we're gonna have to see where this all lands.
But the challenge is is that too many of the
spaces in our world is are incentivizing I And look,
I totally agree. I've always had this weird fantasy in
the back of my mind, and I know in my

(46:52):
gut that it would be anarchy. But it's still an
interesting thought. If all social media we're turned off for
twenty four hours, just twenty four hours, every single possible Facebook,
all of it, Snapchattgram, all of it, twenty four hours,

(47:15):
how would we as a society handle it? How could
we could we actually handle communication face to face or
on the phone or you know what I mean like?
Or would it literally turned into World War five? In
the quarantine twenty four hours. We do because listen, I

(47:37):
think we could take I think what what you're suggesting
is fascinating. It's not for subgroups, but the whole population,
you know, I have to say. I mean, think of
how news got transmitted through the world when we were children, right, Like,
we didn't hear about things that were happening in other
random places, So it would I do think it would
rattle many people. I also think that the way people
interact with their phones is almost quite addictive. They're con

(48:00):
something just sort of picking it up, like they're just
like it's something they're jones in for. Like it's like
a kind of a squirrely kind of all my thumbs, yes,
exactly exactly. And yet and yet it's become such it's
been so tight and becomes so tied into what people do.
But I have no problem with it being tied into

(48:20):
how people work. My problem with it is that it's
getting tied into people's sense of self work. That's when
we've gone to the card generation. Maybe is the worst off.
If you think about now that you said that, doctor,
you know, um, because before when I started dancing the stars,
there was no such thing as social media. It was
message boards, and you know, it was my mother forwarding
me like oh well, he said, she said great. But

(48:41):
then and then now, because we were born before the
social media generation, I think we look more for validity
through maybe the likes than your daughter, for instance. Correct. Correct.
And there's actually research that shows that people over forty
five or fifty actually use social media in a less
skilled way and more of a parent let me get

(49:01):
validation than people who are younger, who it almost became
like they're they're called digital natives. Actually, those children who
go up with it, they're like, we're just using it
as to like I'm amazed when I watched my daughter
quick quick snapchat this, Like they're just communicating about really
banal things. It's not about self forth, Like it's a
way I might even say, pick up some milk, you know,
like it really has that feel to it versus this big,

(49:24):
heavy Because in our generation, all of a sudden, for people,
for the first time, they're able to get validation this way.
I think actually more people over fifty messed up their
marriages on social media than people under thirty. Do you
know something you said It's so true. Everything you said
is so true. But that's one thing that stood out

(49:45):
is that it's it's become sort of monetized. Right. So
there's there's a PBS documentary called The Like Generation, and
they kind of delve into all of this stuff, but
it even black me Or did a whole thing where
the whole currency is how many subscribers do you have?

(50:05):
How many thumbs up likes do you have? And I do.
This isn't the first time we've talked about on the podcast.
I am very concerned the next generation. I see it happening.
I see people obsessed with how many followers they have,
you know, and then it seems okay, as long as
your followers keep growing, take away those followers. These people

(50:28):
are going to go into deep depression. They may because
it's because they've been it's become again that sense of
self worth, and it has, yes, right if they're reliant
on it, But it also robs a person of a
certain authenticity. Right. You've created this false self and you
have to then live in this false self. And we
know that from a mental health standpoint, living in your

(50:49):
false self is a really unhealthy place to live. Think
about social media also as a breeding ground for narcissism.
I mean, I mean it is literally you're you're feeding it. Uh,
you're feeding the beast by you know certain people, how
they are on their on their social media, what what

(51:11):
they do to get that attention and continue to do
and get bigger and bigger with you are literally building
a small or are huge narcissistic army of followers. Um,
have you ever seen two narcissists married all the time
all the time? Are they perfect for one another or no?
Not at all? So what ends up happening is when

(51:32):
two narcissists get married, it's it's a These relationships tend
to be very volatile. Um, they really go well as
long as everything's going like almost like they're even kill
or everyone sort of stays in their lane. But when
one person starts succeeding more than the other, somebody always cheats. Right,

(51:52):
one succeeds, the other one cheats. It's like a formula.
And so really because they're trying to they're they're jealous
of the partner that's doing and whether people who are
narcissistic have a lot of fears of abandonment. So this
idea that one person is doing better than them, but
you'll always see like as long as things are kind
of motoring along and they're well matched, but by and
large that much ego and that much need for validation,

(52:15):
Like there's you know, narcissistic relationships run on narcissistic supply.
At some point, you know, you can't just want. It
can't work because there's not both people can't always be
feeding each other. One needs more than the other, but
if one does better than the other, it's over. Both
parents were narcissist and had a kid, would they be
for sure narcissist a narcissist. No. If to narcissists had

(52:35):
a child, that child could run the risk of being
extraordinarily anxious they actually were. Also, that child would have
a high risk for addiction, because I think they'd probably
try to self soothe through either medication or drugs alcoholic.
Yet just quickly, my fear comes from one specific example

(52:57):
someone a J and I both know we won't say
her name, but she stayed at at my house with
my wife and my daughter for a month, and she's
she's on Instagram and and it's all all in with this,
the validation, external validation, the sort of the sexiness and
whatnot right. And then one day what was she was

(53:19):
living with us, she came um back home and she said, uh,
this guy asked me out on a date at the bank.
And I said, oh cool. She goes, No, you don't understand.
He hasn't even seen my Instagram. And that's when for
me the alarm bells went off, like, oh my god,
you're defining your existence, yourself worth. You cannot believe that

(53:42):
this guy would in person ask you out without seeing
your your curated, photo shopped, well lit presentation to the world.
That's for me. This was about five years ago, and
that's when the alarms went off for me. I just went, whoa, yeah,
it's it's a it's a it's a real scary thing.

(54:04):
But um, listen, we would love to keep going and talking.
I'm not gonna stop. We're not gonna stop. We're going
to keep going with you guys. But unfortunately we we
do have to have to wrap up. But Dr Romany, you,
I mean, wow, this is it's it really is such

(54:24):
an interesting, such an interesting it is and and difficult
to It's tragic because I did. I couldn't put a
name to what my dad was until just right now.
So thank you. At least that actually helps um with
a lot of closure, you know, and doctor truly watching
all of us right now, we all have so many questions,

(54:46):
and that's not always the case in our podcast. Like
I know for a fact, we could keep going the
rest of the day with this because it really I
think it's a it is a sort of what's the
word I'm looking for. It's a sort of tumor in society,
do you know. And and so thank you for bringing

(55:06):
light to this sort of thing, my pleasure. I hope
we can do it again someday. Yes, thank you so much,
Thank you again, thanks for having me. Thank you so
take care. Cheers bye bye now, cheers, bye bye. So, dude,
I had no idea. I thought my dad was just
an ass, But he's a narcissist. He was rest in

(55:29):
peace if you think all narcissists are asses, but not
all asses are not narcissists, you know. But my father,
I'm telling you, he is exactly what he is. What
she was explaining about that man who was sixty three,
that's exactly my father. They're very good at emotional abuse,
they really are. And I know it's crazy, Like I

(55:51):
never realized how many now, you know, listening to the
actual you know, medical breakdown of all the of all
the character trae to what a true narcissist is man
hundred YouTube channel. Man, my god, it's crazy. There's so
many people that I just thought they were assholes. I

(56:14):
didn't think anything about, Wow, maybe they could be a narcissist.
I never thought that. Now, Oh yeah, I do. I
think I'm a narcissist. Huh. I don't think, like, what,
how do I answer this? No, And not to make
light of it, but I tried to imagine a circle

(56:34):
of narcissists like narcissist Anonymous and just pissed. But I've
got it worse. It's all about me. Well, listen, guys,
we're gonna take a quick break and then when we
come back, we are going to get to one of
our favorite parts of the show, reading your emails and

(56:55):
answering some questions. So stay tuned here on Pretty Messed
Up on our Heart Radio. All right, you guys, So, uh,
we are back from break and we have a very

(57:17):
very interesting question. Uh and this is from Anonymous, so
we have no idea who it's from. So this is
a question for all of us. Um, making amends are
a very important step in the twelve steps. Who do
you all currently? Oh an amend's or an apology to

(57:39):
let's start with you? Renee? Well, I think I don't
own amends to anybody right now, I've I've made my mends.
And what we were taught to do is that, well,
well it is, and and if there's a new one,
we're also taught when we were wrong, promptly amitted it.

(58:01):
Right So if along the right now, I don't know
amends to anybody. But if later on today I were
to speak to someone in in a way that they
didn't deserve, I would as quickly as possible say to them,
I owe you and amends you didn't. You didn't deserve
for me to talk to you that way, right, I won't.

(58:21):
I'll do my best for it not to happen again.
Although these days I don't talk to people in a
way where I feel badly. If I have to put
my foot down, I don't lose sleep over it. If
if let's say, it's justified for me to say, hey,
you know what, when you did this, it hurts my feelings.
Um it's different, you know if so? Anyways, I don't

(58:45):
owe amends to anyone today, but scary when you do
when you do right, like when you have to say
that and have the courage to say I'm sorry if
I hurt you or right. So the whole process is
trying to get rid of what we what we say,
piece to shit is um right, like doing things being
the wrecking ball, no longer being that person anymore. When

(59:07):
you're wrong, promptly admit it and we make amends often
on the spot, you know, um, unless it can hurt
someone else. Well, yeah, that's a whole different thing. When
when you're going when you're going through the steps, there
is a part that says and unless when to do

(59:27):
so would injure them or others, some of those things
you've just gotta go, like confess to your sponsor or
a priest or something like that, because the way my
sponsor put it, you know, it's like you don't want
to take the rock off your chest and put it
on someone else's chest. Do you understand even if it

(59:49):
was just a joke, Well no, Look, if if there's
jokes but they're taking wrong, it's nice to be able
to clarify them. You know, you're right, that's really yeah, well,
you know, I'm actually on my YouTube channel. You can
obviously see more of my apology there. But I am

(01:00:09):
the one thing that I feel like I truly regret
and I want to make amends with is Iron Zerring. Um.
I was completely out of line. Here's a little backstory.
A few years ago and I did a podcast where
you know, they were asking me who my favorite partner
was and who did I hate the most, and I

(01:00:30):
answered Iron zer Ring and I said something along the
lines of I'd rather slit my wrists than dance with
Iron zer Ring again. And you know, I would say,
there's no excuse there was, you know, no, no matter
if it was a joke or not. I know it
hurt him, and I know it hurt him and his family,
and it was a big deal. And people still continue

(01:00:53):
to ask me the same question, like wanting me to
answer it the same way. UM, And I'm here to
say sorry. I truly am so sorry for um for
being so um inconsiderate and just talking trying to basically

(01:01:15):
get a reaction, you know, and putting him as my
punching bag. Really, you know, at the end of the day,
when someone does Dancing with the Stars, especially as celebrity. Um,
they are already going on the show being vulnerable. And
just because you know, maybe I don't necessarily, let's say,

(01:01:35):
we don't get along for a couple of days, you know,
I just took it to that next level of just nastiness.
And I was so nasty and um, and I'm here
to publicly apologize to Ian and his family. And I
know it hurt him because he actually went up to
Tony davilaani Um, one of the O G dancers who's
no longer in the show, but they had a flight

(01:01:56):
just out of coincidence together and they were sitting next
to each other, and he was explaining to Tony how
hurt he was, and he didn't understand because he thought that,
you know, we were good. And I even wrote great
things about Iron's earing in the book, Um that I
wrote a long time ago, and so it must have
come out like out of left field for him a
little bit. Um. And I know that people are still

(01:02:18):
trying to get me to say that, but you know,
I lost a lot of respect for myself, UM when
I said that, and um, it haunts me to this day.
You know, Well, Cheryl, we all say things to be
sarcastic to try to be funny. Sometimes they don't doesn't
go well right in your case, it's something that bothers you.

(01:02:38):
Have you ever been able to talk to him in person? No,
I haven't had the courage. That's why I asked you
about that. Here's if you don't mind unsolicited advice. UM,
I would pick up the phone. I would call him
and to say there's something that I've been wanting to
tell you in person, and I'll tell you that. Here's

(01:03:00):
the trick. You cannot do it with expectations of how
he's going to respond. You're not doing it. That's but
that's when I get too scared. See, you do it
because it's the right thing to do, right. And when
we do amends, sometimes they go well and sometimes they don't.
But what at least you do is I tried to

(01:03:21):
write it and you're then then you could let it
go right, Then you could let it go. UM. I
would imagine that it would be a very welcomed call. Yeah,
do you know? And and I think that, well, I'm
sure you could get in touch with them, and I
just think you'll end up feeling better. I'm sure you

(01:03:44):
know you're right because I can say it all I
want now, and then I can say it all I
want on my YouTube channel. But I'm still not really
making amends until like, all right, you're not really going
directly to the source, right, But I think it's awesome
that you're mentioning it on this podcast, and it's just
who I am. Right, I'm not a malicious person and
I never was. You're not, and it's but I definitely

(01:04:06):
did it for validity because it was like a you know,
it was just because of the I don't even know.
There's no excuse. I just did. I did it, and
I am on the moment. Yeah, that's that is the
beautiful part in all of this is that we all
make mistakes, right. We got to get back to that
I made a mistake. I'm not a mistake. And the
way we rectify some of these things is we call

(01:04:26):
the person and we tell them how we feel and
if it's sorry that you said it, and own your
part of it. You've already done it. On the podcast today,
you were You're trying to get a reaction, You're trying
to be funny, you're trying to be sarcastic, and and
it's bothered you ever since. Yeah, I don't even think
I should say that. I think there's just no excuses,

(01:04:48):
you know, like I just I am. I'm truly sorry.
You know, Yeah, I think that would go a long ways.
I think you will too. As far as me I,
I I have a lot of amends to make. Um,
I'm not quite there yet in my in my twelve
step program. I know that I will have an amends tomorrow.

(01:05:09):
I already know this that I will have to apologize
to Rene for whooping his ass on the golf course.
So I already know that did you guys play golf
without me? But tomorrow and tomorrow? Well he The thing is,

(01:05:30):
he had he got a twusome at a different course,
so like literally he had. It's only him and I
and other friends are pissed at us to the golf
all the time that he made a tosome reservation. Can
you wear my outfit? At least? I think he would
look good in that sweater for sure. I've been down

(01:05:52):
and you know, it's almost like like we're in the
actual tanktop. All right, you guys, listen, Thank you all
so much again. Thank you to our amazing guest Dr
rominey Um. Thank you so much. To all of you
that are listening to the show, please hit that subscribe button,
give us five stars like you always graciously do. Thank

(01:06:13):
you so much, and uh we will be talking to
you all next week, so you'll be safe out there.
God blessed and talk talk for now. Bye bye. Follow
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