The Mirror Ball We Didn't Win

Kaitlyn wins Dancing with the Stars... Do Bachelorettes have an advantage?

Pretty Messed Up shares their thoughts and reveal who deserved to win.

Plus, have you see The Vow and Seduced? Catherine and India Oxenberg are sharing their story.

Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm pretty bad. Hey everybody, Welcome to another missing episode

(00:23):
of Pretty Messed Up on I Heart Radio. UM. Okay,
first and foremost before we dive into what went down tonight,
which we all know was the finale of d w
T is the UM we are doing something very fun tomorrow.
We are going to be live, doing this podcast live,

(00:47):
uncensored live. Holy shit. Who knows what's going to be said,
who knows how it's going to be said, But let's
just tell you guys right now. We have some great
guests joining us tomorrow. Justina Machado will be on. Jenna
We'll be on tomorrow, and Murkowsky and and my brother

(01:16):
from another mother, Mr Nick Geen Carter and possibly Nelly
will We'll see. I text him, we'll see if he
if he can make some time. But yeah, we're going
live tomorrow and there are tickets still available. Go get him,
get him now while they're hot, sizzling. Yeah. Literally, I

(01:40):
don't know that many people that have done this, so
this is gonna be fun. We're gonna be live. So
have you done a live yes? And by the way,
get your tickets on looped live dot com again. That
is Looped Live dot com What were you saying, Renee. Now,
have you done a live podcast? No, but I've shake
my ass live on televis and all the time. Yeah,

(02:02):
that's different. It's a different way of communicating. I'm actually
really nervous about it, guys, because for some reason, everything
I say makes headlines, so I need to not say
so much. I don't know. That's why. I think kind
of what we're looking for, I think people are gonna
log on for that. They want to hear what they
want to hear out of your mouth, all the stuff
that gets edited out normally exactly. Well, crap, thank god,

(02:25):
we just wrapped Dancing with the Stars. Speaking up, it's
I mean, talk about a crazy night tonight. Um God,
me and you a j though, we were like, okay,
so on top of me doing like a few numbers right.
I don't know if you guys saw it, but I
was in a little bit of the opening, which was
really crazy because it's the first time all the pros
were danced to get together again since this COVID thing

(02:46):
happened and we had the COVID officer. They're basically telling
us not to get our heart rate up and not
to sweat and you're talking to the number one sweater
over here. It's true. I will vouch for the miss
shar Bear sweat her ass off standing still. Do you mean,
like Julie, any levels of sweat, Like when I'm like,
my heart rate is up now, like it's not gonna happen,

(03:08):
like to dance moves and my heart rates up. But
it was so nice to be able to dance with
the professionals. Again, I have to say that that was
missing a little bit from the show. I agree. I
mean that's a big part of what I've seen in
previous seasons, where it's either all the pros dance together
and then like you said, the pros dance with other couples,

(03:31):
or like couples and couples danced together. Well, the married
couples stood like they danced together. Then he had me
and Brandon, who could be my son? Um, I'm just kidding,
I guess not that means I would have him. I
would have had him at eleven years old, that's really
I mean, it's it's shocking, but it does happen. And
his pants split in the middle of the number then
right him, Yeah, pants down the middle of renee, like

(03:55):
if he was not wearing underwear. I would have been
a that was was right behind us. Horrible. So you guys,
now that it's concluded, right, the season's concluded, is there
a part of you that's kind of glad that, Okay,
that's done. We could move on to other things, explore
a bunch of other stuff. How do you guys feel

(04:19):
for me? It's like the Olympics, It really I don't
know if you remember Jack Osborne comparing it to that
when we first for very first guest, Um, but yeah,
it's kind of like I think, now I'm going to
wake up and I be like, wait, I'm not going
to get any more calls about rehearsal or text messages
or emails, you know, like I get a hundred times
a day. So there's that, um weird, I guess withdrawal

(04:39):
from that, and then the holidays are coming up and
this whole you know, so I think it's gonna be
a different type of like like standstill for a second
because we're all going to be locked down. Probably is
it the same? Is it the same every year where
the holidays come right up every year to give you
something to focus on? Yeah? No, totally. Well yeah, end up.

(05:00):
I just bought a lot of lots of Christmas decorations
for no reason. That's my that's my addict in me.
It was either that or something not good. I mean, look,
I think, look, I've got nothing to compare it to.
But I think this was a fantastic season for you. Yeah,

(05:22):
it does. It's you know, I I know I made
a lot of friends. Um, you know, both on the
celeb side, on the pro side. Production. Um, it really
is like a family over there, and it's you know,
everybody loves what they're what what they're doing. Um, and
you know it's funny. I thought once we got the boot,

(05:46):
I thought, Okay, I'm waiting for this decompression thing, this
kind of detox thing to happen. And literally the rain
next morning, I was I was back in dad mode.
I was up at six thirty in the morning, and
I slept the best I'd ever slept. Here's when it
hit me. It hit me a week later is when
it hit me. At like two in the afternoon, I

(06:09):
was sitting on the couch. I was watching football, and
I watched the first four minutes and then I woke
up to the last three minutes. I missed the whole
damn game, and I'm like, but my body was finally like, dude,
you need to just go to sleep. Your body is
finally trying to catch up. But to be honest, I

(06:32):
was No. I wasn't depressed, but I will say I
miss I missed, Like I know this is gonna sound
wrong with no, I don't miss that. Um No, I'm
just kidding. I miss the like having a purpose type thing.
Not that I don't have a purpose being a father
and a husband, but there was a purpose in my

(06:55):
life for me individually, and the routine exactly. There was
something yeah, and like so that I do miss um
do you know what's funny? But yeah, I mean it's
with Circle the Wagons, which is the group that we
you know, every day we talked about our recovery and
different things, and we were all on the ride, you know,

(07:16):
we were vicariously every Monday, we knew we're going to
watch the show and we're rooting for you in the dada.
And so for me, it was like, yes, I was disappointed.
I feel like you got bounced, you guys got bounced early.
But I'm also relieved, like I don't have to bite
my nails every Monday, you know, every every Monday. I'm like,

(07:39):
come on, come, but you were on that roller coaster
ride with us, Like Monday through Thursday was hell, Like
it was starting the next dance and then like thinking
you're never going to get it. But like tonight, like
seeing that it was only two dances again, that's so weird,
right you guys, we have four dances normally for I know,
and so I was like, damn, we could have done

(08:01):
that in the bag, but you know because like like
you said, we do our samba again. Well, what was
your favorite freestyle a j out of all four freestyles tonight? Um,
my my personal favorite just because I'm a huge gene
Kelly fan was singing in the rain. Um, that was

(08:22):
number one for me. And then Justina was a really
close second. She just came out like when she had
multiple Justina's up on the screen, Like that was the
Beyonce reference that I gave them for your weekend with
the Backstreet Boys. But like I was like, oh, I'm
so happy to see that they can do it though,
you know what I mean, Like at first I was
like maybe, but that's what I wanted for the boys. Yeah,

(08:45):
I mean killed it. By the way, though I agree,
I also loved Caitlin's. Though Caitlin's was also good on TV.
It looks really good. Yeah, but look again, I this
is congratulations to Caitlin and Arda. Congratulations she was. She
was a sweetheart when she and yeah, she really really

(09:06):
went through it. And so did Artem, you know, being
a new father. Artem has never won Dancing with the
Stars before and he's been on for so many years.
Personally from a dancer's point of view, I know it's
about the celebrity, but I think we all we're really
for either Artem or Sasha because they both of them
have never went before. I mean, look, I I'm sure
a lot of people fans of the show, we're all

(09:29):
in the back of their mind going it's gonna be
need and I think needs. Lowest score the entire season
was a twenty four or six. That was his lowest score.
The only thing I can relate to is the fact
that like one Pablo is, it was very similar except
we didn't make the final. However, we are lowest score
was a nine right the whole season, and then to

(09:51):
not make the final or to not win when you
know you came went out there and you did like
one of the best freestyles, you know what I mean,
Like you didn't do anything to not but like you said,
this this comes this tonight is all about Americans. It's
all about the audience voting. Well, they tied everybody except
fine with your score, yes, but it's really the voting.

(10:12):
When you tie everybody, it's the voting period. Oh yeah,
of course, Um you know. But look, I really was
in the back of my mind thinking this could really
go four different ways. I didn't think it's going to
be between one or two or there is one that's
definitely gonna win. In my mind, I like, Okay. The

(10:34):
reason of the controversy is probably happening right now as
we speak on social media is because a Bachelorette one
last season as well Alan Now her name is Hannah,
and she's also come from the Bachelorette world, And so
I was just talking small talk with Dina and we
were just like talking about how it would be so
nice to see Artum like when Um Sasha as well,

(10:57):
because they've never won before but they've done the show along.
And then I'm like, but if you know, if Caitlin
does win, have you thought of maybe not casting a
bachelorette next season, you know, because then you don't want
people to start making this conspiracy theory that anyone who's
an ABC talent is going to But what happened to
the bachelor's Why can't they dance? And we've had a few,

(11:19):
but they have two left feet, every single one of them. Yeah,
Nick who was a bachelor a few years ago, Yeah,
we had to. We tried teaching him choreography to impress
some of the girls. Nick was his name. I don't
remember his last like Nick Carter was on the Bachelors, Like,
how did I miss this? But yes, Melissa Ryecroft, I
don't know if you if you even watched All Stars,

(11:40):
but she did All Stars and dance with Tony Devilani
and she was also a bachelorette and also one also,
So okay, so three bachelorettes have one yes, so imagine
if there's one more ques. But imagine the pressure on
the next bachelorette. Why can I say that we've had

(12:03):
a lot of bachlors they can't dance for the All Stars? Does?
Whoever does it? Are? Are they back with their same partner? Well?
I had four of my partners on for All Stars,
but I am at Smith requested me personally to like
he said he would only do All Stars if I
danced with him. Drew Leah had to dance with Anna Trevinskaya,

(12:23):
Jill Marini dance with Peter Murgatroyd and who was I
think that was it and then it was Emmett. Yeah
that was it. Not four or three. Okay, So it's
not like you always dance with your previous partner. Unfortunately
there's only one of share Beer. Yes that is true,
but they seemed to be fine dancing with the other girls,
which is totally fine. But mind you, All Stars didn't

(12:45):
do well. I don't think. I don't know if they'll
ever do that again. When was the last one that
you guys had The last and only time we had it,
which was a few years ago. So it's so it's
not like a thing that's happened a couple of times.
It's not like, Okay, after nine seasons and the ten season,
they do All Stars. But what they need to do
is they need to do like a show on the
celebrities that got their time cut off short, like a J. McLean. Yeah,

(13:10):
that's what I was going to say, what number were
you guys booted? We were nine, so we were I
think seventh seven, So they should do seventh, you know,
a bunch of seven. Just once that ended, like if
they got an injury like Jewel did. She did the show,
but she only got to the training period because she
had an injury. Hope Solo her achilles popped, you know,

(13:33):
like stuff like that. Ray Lewis um except you know
a j you better choose me. Yes, I you know
it's funny. I actually watched video. It was never mind.
I think it was your video on your YouTube channel
talking about the worst you've missed me. Yes, I have

(13:55):
no but it was talking about some of the worst
injuries on the show. And I saw when Homeboy jacked
up his arm. Crazy. Oh my god. I got a
free trip out of it though Cheryl, Hey, Cheryl worked
through her. She fell right on her head right back up.
I don't know if you saw. I don't know if

(14:16):
you saw Wendy Williams, but she slammed my ass the
other day. Literally did not even like she thought that.
I went to the hospital and she the ambulance came
and then she thought I cried. I was like well,
first of all, Wendy, I didn't cry. She also said
I was forty insulted. Oh my goodness. And she's like, oh,
you slept with all your partner's right, or like you

(14:37):
slept with Rick. I'm like what because she was like right,
But I've done her show before, so I did her
show seven years ago and she was you know, she
definitely was not Cheryl. What hurt more your head when
you hit it or when she said you were right?
That hurt more? I say in my head a few times,
I'm good. Yeah, I just think it's funny tonight because

(14:59):
you were I think you were down getting ready to
uh perform with I think Caitlin and uh Posh was
sitting next to me and they were showing all the
highlights of the whole season for everybody, and he was
on his phone and he looks up right when they
cut to you falling, and he like went oh, and

(15:24):
like his face was like an utter shot. Just well yeah, well,
because you're like where they put it in the edit
was just so so random tonight. I wasn't Mike. That
was loud, happy, happy happy. They showed the thumb tonight tonight, Yeah,
tonight it's part of the highlights. Yea, I know, but

(15:50):
so everybody. What is everyone doing for Turkey Turkey Day?
I think we need to talk more about the finale.
I know it might be a little sensitive, but I'm kidding.
I'm gonna talk about the finale for Thanksgiving. How Rene's
dog just dropped the biggest bomb right now? That is

(16:11):
inside the house. Well he's no, not actual foot, No, no, no,
it might as well be in my mouth. He's sitting. God,
I don't I can't smell it where I am. Clearly
we know that I'm COVID free because I could smell

(16:32):
that as if it were in my mouth. When you
have COVID, you don't smell dogs. You can't smell, you
smell or taste. I could smell that. That's one of
the biggest symptoms. I think I've lost that a while,
so I smell it now. Dude, it's our big dog
actually had diarrhea and just shut all over the master bedroom.

(16:54):
Oh my god, on the steps at least steps. My
poor OspA is the last week now. Yeah, he's fourteen,
so I get it. But I'm I'm considering doggie diapers.
We we actually had him, remember a bella. Remember that
we had a hundred and eighty pound massive a j

(17:17):
lived right almost next door to me at the time.
And you know, it's sad when they start getting to
a certain age and they you know, they can't control themselves.
And that's the type of diarrhea that was happening in
our master as well. He's really old. Now you have
a You have a friend cheat too, though, don't you?
I do? And she's a little rascal. She's like her mother.

(17:38):
Do you know that all the sort of snout challenged
dogs like like a friend cheap that and they also
they're stinky, so cute. They are cute. She's a girl. Now.
Now my husband and I are trying to like, I
think we need to spade her, just saying, but he
wants to like, basically, if I live on a farm,

(18:02):
what did you want to meet her with one of
his iguanas? Can you imagine that would be interesting? All right, listen,
we'll take a break and when we come back, we
have two very special guests, So we'll be back in
just a second. We actually have some very very special

(18:30):
guests today on joining us on the show. Uh India
and her mom, Catherine Uxenburg. How are you guys doing
you welcome We've been We've been so excited for this podcast,
so you're very welcomed here. Thank you. I know I

(18:52):
was telling my mom a little bit about ages angle
and what you guys are interested in, and we're really
excited to talk about it because there's so many similarities
and it's important survival. Oh yeah, well it's not. It's

(19:13):
an absolute pleasure to have you guys joining us today. Um.
You know, uh, this this whole story is just I
came and wrap my brain around it, like it's just
you can't make this kind of ship up, Like you
just can't. You can't write it, you can't make it up,
and it's it's insane that it is an actual reality. Um.

(19:37):
You know, myself and Renee are both fathers. We both
have daughters. Um, so when I heard about this and
I read about this and watched the show, I was just,
you know, it just made my entire skin crawl, you know,
because again being a father with two beautiful girls, it

(19:57):
absolutely terrifies me that these types of things and for me,
I'm so into the studying of mental health and like
I'm all about motivational speakers. And like I like, I
love Tony Robbins, I love you know you name it,
and so like when it comes. When I saw The Bow,
I saw the first like five episodes and it was

(20:19):
just like, oh my god, like this is exactly what
I am attracted to. Like, I love I love the
study of the brain. I love trying to be the
better version of myself that I could be, and I
just I could. It was kind of like a hit
close to home. So do you want to tell us
about just like I guess the beginning stages of it.
All I know you guys went together first? Was that it? Yeah,

(20:41):
we did. And how did you find out about it? Well,
so a trusted friend who we didn't realize until retrospect
that she was recruiting us, but I did notice she was.
But she was somebody who had recommend that other things
in the Lost and that we had tried and it

(21:02):
sounds great. So we didn't and so she wasn't. There
wasn't really any alarm going off. It was just she
was really wanting us to go to the intro and
that wasn't a red flag, but I think it should have. Well,
what she kept saying was this program is going to
change your life of all the things I've ever done.
And she was sort of a new age, cutting edge friend.

(21:22):
This is the thing that was the turning point, and
she was so enthusiastic. And then we drove to the
intro together and she got off and she gave a
testimonial at the intro and in the room. There are
a lot of people that we recognize, people who was
in the busy, entertaining entrepreneurs, successful, people that gave it
the room automatic, credible and that at the end of
the day. I mean, when someone tells you this will

(21:45):
change your life for the better, who wouldn't want to go? Listen,
write and then do that? You know and trust? Right, Well,
that's going to make it more inviting obviously, because you
you know, there's familiar faces, you feel instantly comfortable, and
like you said, maybe you should have thought that that
was a red flag, but why why the world would
you like your absolute Usually people are trusting of each other.

(22:08):
I mean, obviously we've learned to be more vigilant and
look for these things now that we know that, but
prior to that, nobody teaches you to look for these
types of things. And you don't want to live like that.
You don't want to live questioning, right, you're walking on
eggshells throughout your life and not being able to trust anyone,
even your closest friends. I mean, and that's that's yeah.

(22:29):
And the three of us, the three of us here
were in recovery, right, so we was substance abuse, and
and so normally when we meet people that are in
recovery and they tell you their harrowing story, uh, it's
nice to see them in front of you knowing they
survived it, right. So that's what's really nice that to

(22:50):
be able to see both of you as survivors, both
of you people who made it through the fire and
lived to tell about it. And then now you get
to maybe warn other people what to look for. H
I mean honestly, So, Kather and I have a question
for you. When did you start to get I guess
cold feet? Like, when did you what was the turning

(23:11):
point for you? Oh God, I outlined this whole thing
in my book, but this is a long process. But
I I was a student, and to differentiate you could
take classes as a student, and then there was this
aggressive recruitment to become a coach, which was no longer
just using it as a tool to program, but making

(23:32):
it a full time lifestyle. And that was already a
red flag for me. I was uncomfortable with the aggressive recruiting.
I wasn't. I had done a lot of self help,
so I'd never win this. Yeah, but that wasn't I

(23:52):
didn't see that until we were already in the programs.
So they don't start to show you these things until
you're in, or you hey, or in my case in
daw specifically, which was the really nefarious sorority with underneck Yam,
they didn't. It was all a bait and switch. They
give you one thing and then it ends up being

(24:13):
completely the opposite. But you're already too compromised or either
you know, too innocent to really as a student initially.
I mean, I think we took a different path because
I was recruited, I was targeted to be a coach,
and then they kept flattering me, you should be your coach,
You're so natural. I mean, I grew up in l right,

(24:34):
I wasn't lucky to be right. Oh yeah, Well that
started to happen systematically, but really it started it started
day one beginning. So this is what we didn't understand
until looking back, is that we sat down wanting this
to be a bonding experience to five days together. And
we sat together and a coach came up and grabbed

(24:55):
India and said, you know what, she's going to feel
so much more comfortable sharing, opening up her heart, not
in front of her mom. So I was like, okay, well,
I want I want WASH's best for my daughter, and
if it's not sharing the experience, but it's going to
be better for her separated from me. But what we
didn't know this was actual predatory strategic Yes, do you

(25:17):
know I've I've always been interested. I'm fascinated, i should say,
by cults and how they work right, how they're able
to seduce someone, and and one thing that always blown
me away is how they're able to do it with
very smart people. Do you know where you at first
from a distance, you want to believe that, uh, you'd

(25:40):
have to be super malleable that. In fact, I'd read
a story once where a reporter set out to expose
this cult. So he had to you know, he had
to pretend to join in the process. He joined. Wow, right,
this this was a guy who went into to expose them.

(26:01):
I can't remember this story wild World Country. I thought, yes, yes,
I remember, I watched everything Watch that's an insane everything. God,
So did you watch these post getting out or not?
What I was in? Are you kidding me? There? India? Like?
Were you there? Seven days a week? I lived? I

(26:23):
was actually commanded to relocate to all them. It was
all many New York And like you're saying, there are
a lot of really smart people. I mean, we had
a whole Harvard contingency within Next. So we're not looking
at on educa. I think one of the assumptions is

(26:43):
that you have to be naive or young or you know.
I mean, there is a certain week. Don't really prey
on weakness. They're looking for people who are really resourceful
that they can use and they probably do teach like
great things that a lot of other people do teach
is that how they lure you in, right, they have.
So the thing that was really clever, and what made

(27:05):
Next a more modern in my opinion, is that they
used the front of self help to conceal all the
other things that they were doing behind it was the
trojan horse. Yeah, exactly, see it until you were far
too far gone, and usually you people who are really
committed moved to Albany. Have you guys seen Seduced yet

(27:28):
or yes, have you watched just that I've only I've
only seen them out, but I haven't seen but I
can't wait to see it. I'm like, that's definitely very next.
One of the things that I do want to mention
that hopefully we'll have time to, is that I have
many years and twelve step programs and one of the
people who was my mentor and getting her out is

(27:49):
this guy Greg Hanley Sober Living Santos, which rehabs very well.
I just what I It was so fascinating for me,
the difference um a drug intervention versus a cult intervention.
And if we have a second before they ended, I
just want to because you know, I remember that now

(28:11):
because I know Greg Agent. I know Greg very well,
and I remember when he was telling that this was
going on. Wow, it all comes full circle. Do you know?
I have to say, you know they don't always end well,
these things, right, I mean, you guys are too young
to remember the Heaven's Gate. Do you remember Heaven's Gate? Well,

(28:35):
Heaven's Gate. I had a home down in Ranches's n
f A when this happened, so Heaven's Gate for the
young ones. Here. It was a cult of very smart
people that believed that the hail Bob comment that was
going to pass a close orbit was a mother ship
and the only way they could get on this mother

(28:55):
ship was to die. So thirty thirty eight or thirty
nine people, I can't remember, all drank Sinai or whatever
it was. And so this was not far from my house,
and so they all covered themselves in purple. Yeah, a purple,
this like shiny satin thing, and and that's how they

(29:16):
were discovered, all of them thinking they went I mean,
I don't know. Maybe they did get on the mother ship,
but I don't think so. Then. Um, but my point
is this, it could have turned out so much work.
Thank god you're here and we in the show too,

(29:37):
just to show the similarities of all of these cults
and really what ryan game is and some of master
manipulators or predator like a Keith Raineering, you don't know
what the game is, but they were trained. So he
labels himself as like this brilliant man. Right, Keith would
refer to himself as this, like I don't even know

(29:58):
the exact quote, but like and so did you were
used directly in contact with him from the day you
guys went in together, or you didn't even know who
he was. That's also strategic. Yeah, he was called the
Van Guard. Everyone hails the Van God. He's responsible for
this creation. That's so crazy, it's so gross. Yet no

(30:18):
contact with him for the very long time before and unbelievable. Honestly,
you guys, what's funny is this technique works in business too, right, Like,
we were doing something with Coca Cola and we went
to one floor in Georgia and Atlanta, and then you
go with that group to the next floor that group,

(30:41):
and by the time you meet the CEO of Coca Cola,
you're like, you're just so glad to be there, you know. Perfect.
And that was another thing that Maxium did very well
is that they had their own internal propaganda going very strong.
So by the time that you met Keith or nan see,
you already felt sort of reverential. But sure. So Nancy

(31:03):
is the woman in the video, Oh yeah, you get arrested. Yep,
she did. So, So I have a question because this
has been Yes, so this is something I've been I've
been wanting to ask, which like, just because I'm just

(31:24):
thinking out of just fear in my head for anyone
else that may, ever God forbid, experienced something as catastrophic
as this. Are you worried that there's anyone left that
is still convinced, still has that mindset that would want
to continue this even though Keith is going, you know

(31:44):
what I mean, like he's there, there are who are loyal.
See that people sent support letters to the sentencing unbelievable
and it was I mean I read my victim impact
state it then, but they had fifty six people. And
then there's also a whole group which they call them

(32:06):
that they call them the Nexium five, and they're really
loyal to keep still in there. I mean, it's really
sad to watch because it's like SOX five. I mean,
that's that's very reminiscent of of Charles Manson with the
whole with with the five girls, you know, I mean,
it's the sort of fascinating part of it is is

(32:30):
how deliberate and how slow it evolves, how how little
by little they're they're programming you, right, I mean, for
lack of a better term, they're programming you to the
extent that fifty six people are still like in it
to win it somehow, right. I'm glad that you're able
to look at them and feel sorry for them, you know, Yeah,

(32:51):
I do because some of those people were my friends.
And I remember when I was like then, and I
remember how closed I was and how it was I
was in capable of seeing reality as it was because
I was so stuck inside this bubble of what they
were indoctrinating us. To believe that. It took me a
really long time, and it was super rigorous process of

(33:12):
unwinding the programming that I still fight against today. How long?
How long? What is that? What does that entail? Exactly?
How that programming? I mean, I left in two thousand
eighteen in July, and we're looking at what almost two
and a half year, almost three years? So, and I

(33:34):
fighted every day, and I constantly need to like redirect
my thoughts. I have to dismiss the negative programming. I
have to be aware of my triggers. I sometimes have
panic attacks or yeah, oh yeah, I'm a big I mean,
I think therapy is key, and I've tried a whole

(33:54):
variety of them to see what worked for me, because
some didn't it was a lot of trial and but
initially it was really just my mom listening to me
and having these floods of memories come back. But that
took distance from times. So you have nightmares and and
you wake up in a cold sweat, that kind of thing.
Sometimes I have insomnia. I mean, it's gotten better over

(34:17):
time because I'm I'm less startled by it now because
I kind of know what's happening, whereas before I actually
thought I was losing my mind right right, It's like
doing interviews like this, um doing interviews like this. Is
it a trigger? Or is it? Does it help? Is it? There?
A few times? Sometimes it's therapeutic because I feel like

(34:38):
I'm not being attacked or questioned. But there are times
where there's people who are a little harsh and insensitive,
and that that is painful. I mean, I'm a person's
just crazy how people are feelings. Some people do that
just for ratings, for that they just want to get
a rise. And you know, but what you're both doing

(34:58):
is a testament to so many need people out strength.
You guys are you guys are survivors. Courage, courage, strength,
and it's it's it's what's needed and it's what's needed
that people need to hear. People need to be aware
of what is going on out there. And by the way,
like you don't even think any of this would happen
right to you, and especially just being in the business

(35:19):
as well, you're just like, oh no, everyone's perfect in
the Hollywood industry. And it's like, you know, we're human,
like you said, India, you know, we we we have
a saying that we like to say it's the spiritual
path or the psycho path. And and because we've all
been on the psychopath and for us, for us, for

(35:41):
us a path party of one depending on the moment
of the day. Right. But but so uh coffee yeh.
Prayer and prayer and meditation is a part of what
I do. She's hitting me because I think part of
my recovery has been coming back to myself spiritually and

(36:04):
that was kind of like the last layer that I
actually felt like me again, and I love it. I
felt like I could connect to something that was bigger
than myself and that really gave me a lot of
so so I would say, you know, the old the
old adage, whatever doesn't kills you makes you stronger, right,

(36:26):
It seems I see a strengthen you. I see the
lights on in your eyes, and I imagined back then,
you must people must have seen you. It's just almost
like robotic you did. Yeah, they told me I looked
like a zombie. I like nothing in my eye. I
mean I was also on a starvation. I was unlimited sleep.

(36:49):
They were doing a lot of things that are typical
of mind controlled tactics which they were spinning as positive
for me, which were actually really hurting me and many
other women. I mean, I'm I'm just one, but there
are many I have. I have a question, I mean
knowing knowing the end result as far as Keith goes, like,
are you is that is that enough closure for you?

(37:13):
Like the end result for what happened? Or is that
or or or basically will there never be enough closure?
Like you know what I mean, Like, I mean, what
what his sentences and whatnot? I mean, is that enough
for you to really continue to heal? Or you know
what I mean? Yeah, I know what you mean. And

(37:35):
I think that's a good question because I went in
I went into this um sentencing and I knew I
wasn't going to get anything from him because he's a
true socio. He does not have empathy. He can't try
on being somebody else. He's incapable. So I knew that
anything that I read was really for me and my

(37:57):
own closure, and so I put it all out there
in my words, and I actually looked at him in
the eyes several times when I wanted to make points,
and after I left, I actually felt really calm, like
I had gotten it out of my system, and I
do feel like justice is served. I mean, a hundred
and twenty years is a statement that is but you

(38:19):
will never back our time, but it is something and
it's absolutely you know, I am not the same at all.
But I got sexually molested when I was a little girl,
and we put my molester behind bars, and there was
something about I was so young. I was like nine
years old when I testified, right, So it was just

(38:41):
like there was something though about that calmness I can
relate to in a weird way, you know, Like it
was the first night that I slept without being like
tortured in my head totally, because sometimes I go to
sleep and I started thinking about things you are being
afraid and I actually called my mom and I was
like I went to bed and I didn't have a nightmare, right, Yeah,

(39:02):
And there's something about it, and it's like for me,
I've just been going through this like forgiveness stage, which
is just so and I've just had to like kind
of figure out it's not it's not forgiving him, it's
forgiving myself, you know. And so um, that for me
felt very you know, just relief, just lots of luggage. Yeah,
and so are you do you and the other girls

(39:25):
are in communication or some of the so the people
that have left MAXI um, and I was close to
some I still have a relationship with. I consider a
couple of them best friends. The people who are still
loyal I don't communicate with or it's very very simple
communication because just for my own protection, I got to

(39:46):
keep distance from that because you never know, and they
use a lot of strategies to try extract information. It's
not worth it. Excudent your friends clothes, keep your enemies
closer kind of a mentality. Yeah, I mean I wanted,
I wanted to get back. I think again, for my

(40:06):
personal experience, being able to see the glass half full, right,
even having gone through really terrible things, right, And I
think the beauty of what you've been through. Not that
anything is beautiful about the actual indoctrination that, but the
fact that you could today you have a voice now

(40:29):
that can make a difference with people, you know. And
so to me, the silver lining that I always look
for is that this has made you a lot stronger,
and it's made you you know, I'm sure you've had
to look in where to find out who you really are,
and that is half the goal in life. Oh totally.

(40:49):
I mean I definitely had a crash course, so I
have learned a lot, and you didn't sign that. I
even wrote wrote a book about it, because for a
time I couldn't even talk about these things. So I
ended up writing which was super helpful, and I called
it still Learning, which I think was really I need

(41:09):
to read that book. We're all still having always every day,
you know. Yeah, it's a it's a it's a daily thing,
but it isn't you know. It is interesting how you
guys said, it's very very parallel with like the world
that we're in with recovery and with you know, mental
health and whatnot, because again, you know, you you fall

(41:33):
into these these you know, traps in these these mindsets
that you know what you're what you're doing, or what's
being asked of you, is it's okay, it's acceptable. And
then before you know it, in the blink of an eye,
you're so deep into it that you're so far down
the rabbit hole like that you that you just can't

(41:54):
even call your way back out. And you're obviously surrounded
by people that continue to bring you down, bring you down,
bring you down, until you finally get to that place where,
like you said, now you've now you have that spiritual
connection back again, which is which is a huge thing.
I mean the twelve step program. I mean, hats off

(42:14):
to mama. Yes, Mama bear always taking care. You know,
that's you know, moms are awesome. Moms are awesome period.
Let's just say that mom's role. Okay, let's just get that. Yes, yes, yeah,
I'll tell you it was prayer and faith through absolutely. Catherine.
Did you film something um in Gregg's Beach House guests? Yeah? Help?

(42:44):
You were there, so yes, I was gonna ask you
if you remember that and help just yeah, And I
was just remembering looking at you, why you look so familiar?
You helped because I was helping a rescue of a
sex trafficking victim, which was why I started the foundation
that Indian I and I was going to talk. Yes,

(43:05):
I just it kind of all hit me at one time.
We'll wait to wait a minute. What she said Greg's name?
I was like, wait, is there another Greg Hanley or
is it the same one that we that we know?
This guy looked really familiar. I'm like, oh, yeah, he
was filming with me with Calum. We were planning his rescue. Yeah,
and we did rescue her. Yeah. Tell tell a j

(43:28):
and Cheryl about that a little bit, because that was
another nutty story. I was doing that because I was
so frustrated she wouldn't let me rescue her to rescue somebody,
so child definitely she had our moment. So what happened
was Greg told me a little bit about that he

(43:48):
had rescued one young woman from a sex trafficking ring
in Little Beach and he said he was about to
go rescue another young woman and and I said, well,
you need help and he said yes. So that's how
that happened. But there were mafia involved, there was all
kind it was, yes, So it was really serious. In fact, Greg,

(44:09):
when we were filming how the suitcase and He's like,
I can't get on a plane because they threatened to
kill me. Remember, so I helped organize a rescue through
a p I who drove from Florida to Metal Beach
and we got her out. We got her on a
plane where I just said, if you can get her
on a plane and get it to my rehab, I
will take care of her. So I orchestrated the whole rescue.
So can we just for a second, can we just

(44:31):
for a second focus on that. Who rescues people like
Sealed Team six? You know what I mean? Like that
is amazing, just went in, We got got It's just
and and again. I remember Greg was worried because he
was saying, I'm dealing with some like heavy hitter mafia.

(44:52):
What were they Russian mafia or something. I don't want
to speak out of turn, but now I'm in trouble.
It was Greg who actually identified Nexium as a criminal organization,
which is why. So it was it was him who
gave me my strategy. He said, disrupt, disrupt, disrup, contact

(45:12):
the media, contact the FBI. Everything he told me to do,
I did. He said, tough, Loup, don't give her a penny.
You got it. I mean, he was my he was
my coach throughout. So admirable that you. I mean, and
now your daughter's here. You're here right in front of us,
surviving all that madness. Like I said, one thing I
say is I didn't have to turn out this way.

(45:34):
That makes me more grateful for whatever reason. You know,
every time I say to myself something good happens, I
always say, it didn't have to happen this way. It did,
and it makes me more grateful. It could have went sideways. Yeah,
so I did it for a while. But I'm just
so impressed with how present you are India, like you
like myself now than so. I'm really grateful to have

(45:57):
my life back. I mean, like I think, the craziest
thing to say. I never thought that it was something
that I would have to fight for. And I just
feel like, I don't know, it's it's gonna make me pry,
but sometimes just the simplest of things move me so much.
You you just really like what you said. You just
learned to really appreciate what matters, and what matters is

(46:19):
your family and and just having love in your life.
And you're newly married, right, I actually have owngage congratulations,
very lovely man who's a chef, which is that's amazing,
isn't that heaven? That's like the perfect that's the perfect
setup right there. There's no excuse, no excuse for like

(46:40):
the best meals ever period always. And I'm a so
that's one of the things that we bought. That's so great.
I'm so happy for you. Really, it's so great to
see you living in yes, like living in gratitude, which
is which is something that's very hard for people to do,
especially going through something as traumatic. But to live in
gratitude and to persevere and to and to have such

(47:03):
a rock solid best friend partner sitting right there next
to you, Seal Team six right there on the same
team than we are. Not we were always working on
the same team as far as I was concerned. Full circle. Yeah,
thank you for telling your story. I'm sure you're helping

(47:24):
so many people seduced inside. The next um Colt airs
Sundays at nine pm Eastern Pacific time on Stars and
the Stars app Um. Okay, so thanks to Catherine in

(47:46):
India for being our guest today and everyone please check
us out on looped live dot com and it's not
too late. To get your tickets, so make sure you
get them now. We're excited, Yes, we are ated. Hey. Also,
just so everybody knows, we actually did a nice little
photo shoot with our new merch that you guys need
to go check out as well. That's right, because it

(48:08):
was the quickest photo shoot, which meant that it was
a great photo shoot exactly. It was fun. It was fun,
so fun, and it was the first time Renee and
I ever met. So check out the BTS footage on
go to my my fan threads dot com slash pretty
messed up to check out the new merchandise. And they're
super cute. Girls. You got crop sweaters and beanies, pink beanies.

(48:31):
The beanie is just like the softest thing I've worn
on my head as far as a beanie, it's totally
it's like a pillow on your head. It is like, yeah,
it's like a freaking knapsack on your head. No, it
looks really cute on your head. Yeah. Well, listen, thank you,
Thank you guys so much for tuning in and listen. Everybody,

(48:53):
be safe this holiday. Everybody chill with your fans, trying
not to do any traveling. Be safe and smart and
have a very very happy Thanksgiving. Yes, unless you're spitting gravy. Yeah, exactly,
And to both of you guys to share bear happy Thanksgiving.

(49:18):
Let's just go around and talk about how grateful we
are about one thing, Yes, for each other. Well on
all kidding the side, do you guys? My wife and
I last night was we're talking about how freaking fortunate
we are. Do you know what I mean? There's there's
a lot of people suffering out there right now. You know,

(49:38):
we're going into a second shut down. A lot of
these restaurants aren't going to survive. They barely survived the
first one. And you know, we we do and at
night we her and I do talk about you know,
there are people that are separated right now, you know,
in cages. You know, I hate to say it, but

(50:00):
we know where our daughters are. You know, a j
you know where your daughters are there you're talking about
Carole Basket again, No, I'm talking about I'm talking about
at the border. You guys were six hundred and something kids,
they don't they got separated from their parents. And I
think I know where my daughter is. She's upstairs right now,
safe and sound. And I mean there's so much to

(50:23):
be grateful for you guys, and a lot of people
are going through divorce depression, like, yeah, you're right, Cheryl,
that's there's a lot of stuff going on, and the
fact that I get to look forward to every Monday
usually I'm going to see you guys. We're gonna talk,
We're gonna laugh. We've talked about how laughter gets us
through things. I know I'm gonna laugh. You know, Cheryl

(50:44):
always says something you don't know, so smart only knows,
Lord only knows what's going to come out, and you too,
a j well, I mean, I'm just the funny guy.
What can I say. I'm just in all round funny guy.
But yeah, this is gonna be a really I mean, look,

(51:05):
we haven't my family hasn't had a really big, big
Thanksgiving in years because now I've got my own family,
so it's usually limited to about five of us. But
you know, again, everybody out there to be safe, be safe,
and uh, you know, be thankful. Cook. Have you guys
ever fried at Turkey? Absolutely not, But I do have

(51:27):
a just game changers. You injected with all kinds of
stuff and then because you don't blow yourself up, yeah,
you don't do that. But okay, sure, sure, On needs
to play catch up. But I think next week, I
think the three of us should discuss the undoing, because

(51:48):
she's been watching you my god, don't talk about last
night night yet she has just put on your seatbelt
last night, just a freaking I get a call this
morning FaceTime, right, I get a FaceTime No, no, no, no,
it's a j he. I turned it on and he's like,

(52:12):
oh my god, because that's you need to talk about
what the fun will just happen the undoing. I sent
him a text because I watched. No, I'm not gonna
say anything other than I sent him a text saying,
oh m f g right, and then he got home.
I don't know what time he got home last night,

(52:33):
but this morning he facetimes me. I'm half of Hebeny
just goes, oh my god, how early did you watch?
Is that like your morning news? What watching that show? No? No, no,
we watch it on Sunday soon as it's no no, no,
no no no. My wife and I him and Britt

(52:54):
beat me and my wife to the punch. But then
last night I thought I thought Rochelle was going to
be done. And she's like, I'll watch it, and then
by the end of it, she was like, what mind you?
This is what I don't like about that is not
on Netflix is that you can't just watch the whole
you can binge it out. But it's smart. But there's
something kind of cool about that too, though. It makes

(53:15):
you want to say, what the hell? I don't like
waiting a week, but but you also it paces out
for you and there's only one more episode. It sucks
a j thought there was two more episodes. I forgot.
This was the fifth episode. I forgot it came out
every Sunday. So now I've got something to look forward
to tonight and I can't wait to not sleep for
the third night. Oh yeah, I think we're going forward.

(53:37):
We should pick one of these top shows and then
discuss them. You know, it's just everyone's I'm just going
to call her, Yeah, I'll yeah, I'll just call Nicole
Kimmon or I'll call you grant to grant. Okay, I'll
go to your grant. I'll call David Kelly. Okay, listen
to you guys. We'll see you guys tomorrow live for

(53:59):
Pretty Messed Up. We'll see you guys tomorrow. Tune in
next time. I'm Pretty Messed Up on I Heart Radio
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or subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts.