March 10, 2022 • 53 mins
Whom do you call when you’re having a “bad trip,” or just need to process a psychedelic experience that’s now behind you? The Fireside Project is a psychedelic peer support line, co-founded by Hanifa Nayo Washington and Joshua White, that has been well received in the rapidly growing psychedelic community. I was curious to learn how and why it emerged, how’s it going, why Hanifa thinks there are no “bad trips," and the role of psychedelics in the Black community.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
M Hi. I'm Ethan Natalman and this is Psychoactive, a
production of my Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is
the show where we talk about all things drugs. But
any views expressed here do not represent those of my
Heart Media, Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed,
(00:22):
heed as an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they
may not even represent my own and nothing contained in
this show should be used as medical advice or encouragement
to use any type of drouth. One of the most
(00:43):
popular episodes the Psychoactive to date has been the one
where I invited my friend Julie Holland to service my
co host and answer questions with me from you the audience.
So we're going to record another one of those episodes,
and we need your questions. Leave us a voicemail with
a question as detailed as possible at one eight three, three, seven,
(01:04):
seven nine sixty, or you can record a voice memo
and send it to Psychoactive at protozoa dot com. I'm
sure it's going to be a great second go with this. Hello,
Psychoactive listeners. I find myself these days doing more episodes
about psychedelics, and I think part of that is just
(01:24):
I'm so fascinated by everything that's going on in that area.
Part of it was just attending to conferences on psychedelics
in Miami and New York at the latter part of
One of the more remarkable people I met at these
conferences is a woman named Hanifa Nio Washington. She's the
co founder and chief strategy officer of the Fireside Project,
(01:47):
which is the Psychedelic Piers Support Line, which just sounds
like a great idea to me. It's been written up
in Rolling Stone, Forbes, Esquire, a whole bunch of other places. Hanifa,
thanks so much for joining me today. Thank you. I'm
so having to be here with you. Ethan. Yeah, it's
good to be doing this. You know, we had to
keep postponing for all sorts of reasons. I'm glad to
finally have you on here. So let me just start
(02:10):
off when I heard about what you were doing and
met you and the Psychedelic Peer Support Line. Obviously, I'm
doing episodes about all the sort of research studies and
the researchers who are looking at psychedelics and people are
doing ketamine assisted psychotherapy, but you're really operating at a
different level with the people you're talking about in a
psychedelic peer support line are essentially people who are doing
(02:32):
this outside the research setting, doing it quite illegally, even
if it's nobody's or almost nobody' getting arrested for anymore.
So I wanted to ask you what exactly is this
line doing? Who are the people calling? What do they
understand is going to happen when they call the line? Sure? Yeah,
So Fire syd Project runs and operates the Psychedelic Peer
Support Line, and this line is really for anybody who
(02:55):
is actively tripping, anybody who's a facilitator or in the
psychedelic space, holding space for others and wanting to support
and understand processing their trip afterwards. So we're are supporting
people who are actively tripping, we're s supporting people who
are supporting other people tripping, and we're supporting people who
are seeking to process or integrate any past trip. So
(03:18):
that trip could be last night, or could be a
trip that happened twenty years ago. And this is a
service that is free, This is a service that is confidential.
We feel as we move into this next psychedelic space,
in history. Here, as we legalize and decriminalize, we have
to have risk reduction and support. Without risk reduction, the
(03:41):
decrim movement and legalization, it's maybe taking a step backward
or moving itself into risky spaces, and so we also
want to help support people understand psychedelic uses happening. Though
we do not condone the use of illegal substances or
want people to be partaking any legal activities, we know
that people are using more and more, sometimes for the
(04:02):
first time, and often now in these COVID times, people
are alone in their apartments wanting to seek healing and relief,
and we know folks are having more access to it,
and so at any time, if someone has a phone
and is in a headspace enough while they are working
with psychedelics or afterwards, you can call six to Fireside
from three o'clock PM to three am specific time, and
(04:26):
an amazing volunteer will be there to support you either
through call or text, and we provide emotional support. We're
not replacing emergency services, we're not replacing medical services, and
we are getting folks calling in. We've just reached a
fillar mark, which is amazing, and about of our calls
are people who are actively in a psychedelic experience, and
(04:49):
I'm roughly about sixty year cent or so of the
other calls for folks who are integrating our processing and
past experience. We also get people calling in like print calls,
we get people wanting information and something that's outside of
the scope of our line is supporting people pre trip.
So if someone wants to call in and has a
(05:09):
question about well how much should I take and can
I mix these two things together and where should I
do this and where can I get this, we don't
provide that type of support. So we're really supporting people
during and after and really not wanting anyone to be alone.
We see ourselves as a safety net ensuring that anybody
who's actively tripping, anybody who needs support afterwards, has at
(05:29):
least somewhere to call to be supported and without judgment.
We are seeing people calling from all over the nation.
We are a nationwide service. We have people calling from
east coast, west coast, midwest, four corners, all over. We're
getting calls from all regions of the country. And we definitely,
(05:50):
like many people, have our eyes and hearts and organ
and are going to be really doing a big push
in doing outreach there as organ moves into three with
implementing Measure one on nine. And if you just explain
to our audience what Measure one on nine in Oregon
is the ballot initiative one on nine And Oregon makes
it legal for there to be psilocybin therapy facilities and facilitators,
(06:16):
so folks will be able to open clinics or facilities
that support patients with the use of psilocybin. So this
measure really is going to have a big impact on
access to psychedelic therapy with psilocybin as well as impacting
the entire ecosystem around that in terms of patients coming in, education, awareness, growers,
(06:38):
and et cetera. Let me ask you this, So tell
me more about the volunteers. Have all of them done psychedelics?
Have all of them had at least one bad trip?
Have all or many of them previously worked on support
lines suicide hotlines? And are the types of hotlines like that?
How do you decide who's deciding whether somebody can be
a volunteer or who are you rejecting? What can you
(07:00):
tell me? Yeah, when we first started, we were unsure
who all wild apply for this type of position. It
is a volunteership. We invite people to volunteer for a year.
We invite people to volunteer for a four hour shift
every week at the same time, and we've had over
four and fifty people apply for what it is to
(07:20):
be about seventy slots, and we are really looking for
folks who have various lived experiences, different identities, and who
ultimately ethan really understand the value of peer support that
is forced and foremost not everybody has done every or
has experience with every single psychedelic out there. Right, I
(07:43):
think it's important that it is uplift and say there's
no monolitht psychedelic experience. Everyone has different reactions to different
substances and chemicals and amounts and things like this. But ultimately,
in our volunteers, we are looking for people who, if
I was having a really challenging trip experience when I
called in or we're texted in, is this person able
(08:05):
to reflect to me and listen to me and hold
me an unconditional care and non judgment. So we really
encourage our volunteers to hang their credentials at the door.
We're not looking for one type of volunteers so we
do a four day training with our volunteers and it's
really focused on removing the ego or removing the self
(08:29):
out of the way. We're not wanting to fix people
or to guide them. We're not shamans. And in a
way like this for really peers and peers who have
had their own experiences, their own life altering experiences or
transformational experiences, be that with psychedelics or not, and really
are ready to beat with someone in their journey. And
(08:53):
so we're with them, we're side by side. We're not
guiding them to change or not be in a space
that might be challenging, but we're there to listen, to
reflect that, to support, to ask questions that matter. And
it's a really special and I would say sacred experience
to hold that space for others. And so our volunteers
(09:14):
also come from all over the world. We accept volunteers
from all different countries of people in Germany and Australia,
the UK and Canada, and all across the United States,
all different ages, all different lived experiences and identities. Some
folks are deep in the psychedelic space. Some people are
students and teachers, mothers and parents. So we really don't
(09:38):
have one type of stereotype or type of character we're
looking for. But really, at the end of the day,
it's about is this person able to hold space? Can
they be with someone in their experience, whether that experience
is challenging or euphoric, and are they able to also
grow and be open to growth and feedback and learning
(10:00):
along the way. Is it safe to assume that all
of the volunteers have had psycholo experiences? Are almost all
it's safe to say that all of our volunteers have
had transformative life experiences, whether they're psychedelic or not. That's
our volunteers. They apply. The application process is pretty extensive.
It's the application has a lot of narrative. So we're
(10:21):
asking questions about mindfulness, We're asking questions about people's experiences
with life changing and spiritual experiences. We're asking people questions
about how they hold space for others, and also about
their basic background education, more history and things like this.
And so when we say pure support, we mean that
people who get at people who understand, yes, people have
(10:43):
had their own psychedelic experiences and or other spiritual or
transformational experience. Because I would think that if I was
calling such a line. I'd want somebody who has the
types of skills and background and disposition understand that you're describing.
I'd also, you know, hope that person had their own,
you know, share of bad trips so they could on
(11:03):
some level empathize. Obviously, bad trips take all sorts of directions.
I think about two of the bad trips that I had.
By and large, mushrooms have been my favorite psychedelic and
most of the experiences have been very good and sometimes
memorable for decades thereafter. But I think about two where
I fell into a sort of really you know, deep depression.
(11:26):
I've never really struggled with depression that much, but when
I read about her talk about having they'll sometimes describe
it as like there's black edges around everything, the dark
side of you can't see the light, you can't see
the joy. It's all of that. And I handled those experiences.
I think one time I was at myself. One time
went with a partner, but I didn't really have somebody
who was trained to tell me out of that, and
(11:47):
I used two different approaches. The first time was I
had some M d m A on hand, and when
I went into a very dark space, I just took
the M D M A and that kind of helped
lifted from a dark place into a light place. And
the second time it happened was really dark, was on
a beach and everything was looking like like death and dark,
(12:10):
and I know you can't run away from a bad trip,
and so in that time what I did was I
almost envisioned the bad trip as being like this big
ominous wave that I couldn't run away from, and where
I had no alternative but to dive into the belly
of this big dark wave. And I literally, like in
my body, I dived into the sand, but figuratively went
(12:31):
deep into that wave, and and at work that came
out the other side and the depression lifted, and it
also it became almost like a one eighty where what
had been dark and ugly and ominous and all of
a sudden was becoming beautiful and enlightened. Those are my
own experiences. I've told that to people when somebody's asking
(12:52):
in advance, like what happens if it goes in a
dark place. Those are the types of advice I give.
But I want to wonder what you think of the
advice I gave, and whether that's ever the sort of
advice that your volunteers would be getting. Wow, thanks so
much for sharing your experience. That sounds really powerful and
similar to some experiences. But I've also had and I think, yeah,
this concept of the only way out is through, right,
(13:16):
It's like, this is happening, it's normal, and we're going
to get through it. Just so just keep taking the
breath of the time, step at a time, and just
keep going. And so absolutely that advice is something similar
to what we would share the line and have shared
on the line. And what's so powerful too is and
you may have heard that in your life of work,
(13:38):
in your time. We don't believe in bad trips, and
we are also not like the Bad Trip hotline. So
we're support line and so we provide emotional support and
care for folks. And so it's really about listening. So
if you get called and with this experience you had
or something, I would be listening to you, I would
reflect back to you what I heard you say. I
(13:59):
would share with you. Yes, this feeling of darkness is
a normal feeling that people experience with psilocybin, and that
you're okay and that you're going to move through this
experience I think that when we talk about bad trips,
we associate darkness with negativity, with feeling uncomfortable with bad
(14:20):
and there's so much growth and potential and learning and
possibility in that darkness and in that challenge and in
that resistance. Really is what that is. And so when
we allow, and like you said, just allow and just
go into it, it's magical and beautiful and powerful the
(14:41):
alchemy and the transmutation that can happen. And so I
think that people call the line when they are in
challenging spaces. People call the line when they are in
a youth for work space and just want to know
that someone's there with them and that they're tethered right
to some sense of grounding and reality, and it's really
(15:02):
quite powerful. I'm really still sitting with what you shared,
and I just really appreciate it. We'll be talking more
after we hear this ad. I downloaded your app, the
(15:24):
fireside a Project app, and I looked at the website
and I noticed that some of it he's emphasizing as
you start off by saying we're here to offer emotional support,
and then a lot of it looks a bit like
it is written by a lawyer saying it's not medical,
it's not therapeutic, we're not a suicide hipeline. Here's all
the things we're not doing. So there's the requisite language
that a lawyer puts there to say, how are your
ass and all this sort of stuff, and you have
(15:45):
to also be upfront with people. But I'm curious when
it goes into a very difficult place. Have there been
people who have called the line since you started a
year or so ago who have really been having suicidal
ideation or where they'vevolunteer has been worried that this was
beyond what they were either equipped or allowed to deal with. Yes, yes,
(16:08):
there absolutely have been suicide audition calls on the line,
and our volunteers do go through a four day training
and there are things that are inside the scope of
what we do and there are things that are outside
of the scope. It's so interesting that you picked up
on that. There's this sort of two b sides of
what we're saying in our communication to the world, which
(16:28):
is we're here promotional support, we're here for you, We're
glad you're here, and then there's the got to cover
your ass. These are the hard lines. The other founder
is background is a lawyer. So interesting, it's just a
reality that we face right now. We do have to
be really cleared up front that we're not medical professionals,
that we are not emergency support staff, and we have
(16:48):
processes within our protocols to pause calls or stop calls
and transfer them out if they are moving into space
where it feels like the Suicide Prevention hot and for example,
needs to be referred to or urgency services. And it
has been growing and a challenge because our volunteers are
very empathetic for the most part and very wanting to help,
(17:12):
and it's not always a hun percent clear is this
called moving to a space where this is outside of
the scope. Is this person who's exhibiting suicidal ideation do
they have the means? Are they just saying that they
feel suicidal? So there's a lot of gray area there,
and we really are very conservative when it comes to
that because we want people to have the care that
(17:34):
they need by professionals or by people who can support them.
And so we have had to transfer calls outside of
the scope of our line, and we're thankful the National
Suits of Prevention Hotline. We're thankful for the crisis text line,
and that we have the means to also within the
technology do live transfers to emergency services as well. Now
(17:56):
tell me that we're the volunteers, some of them are
going through the very conversations. What is happening in terms
of they're processing it themselves. Are there periodic kind of
group conversations among the volunteers to process some of the
conversations they've had, are their therapists who have volunteered to
assist the volunteers and processing what they had to deal with?
(18:18):
Or what's the cumultive learning experience for the volunteers once
you've done this ten times to what extent is there's
some collaborative process and therapeutic process having among and for
the volunteers. That's awesome. Question is so interesting. As the
line launched in April, we went from a very low
call volume and now we're you know, each week you're
getting more and more calls, more texts coming through, and
(18:41):
different types of calls and starting to notice patterns and
repeat callers and things like this. So we're really learning
a lot as we go. Without our volunteers the support
learn when existence so thankful for them and there's a
lot of support during the shift. So volunteer comes in
when they log in there at home or in a quiet,
safe place, they log into the system and then there
with a team during their shifts. So there's two to
(19:04):
three other volunteers with them, and then there's a supervisor
and so the supervisors there to support the volunteers, and
so there are updates that the supervisor gives folks, but
they're also like listening to two calls if the volunteer
needs kind of support, they're giving feedback about their approach
and also debriefing with either the individual volunteer or with
(19:28):
the whole squad. So if there was a challenging call
and the volunteer needs sort of one on one support,
the supervisor that's on duty does that, and then if
it makes sense it feels right, the whole team during
that time will debrief what was going on. And we've
had community meetings where we bring and invite the entire
community of volunteers together to share how things are going
(19:50):
on the line, to share new protocols, just be witnessed
as they share in process what some of the experiences
have been like for them on the line. We are
moving in the space where We've actually just brought on
a clinical consultant who's going to be available for individuals
but also to support us building and fortifying our protocols
as well. And there are spaces where we offer ongoing training.
(20:16):
We offer looks like a once a month ongoing training.
It's different things, and sometimes it's some of our volunteers
offering their expertise and they're really building the communities. One
of our volunteers offers yoga sessions, there's a meditation session
you can drop into, and so as we grow, we're
going to be really building that tool kit of support
(20:36):
for our volunteers. Before I turned to asking you about
the Zendel Project, which is the second carm aduction project
at Burning Man, the last question I wanted to hit
you with was when you think about the experiences you've
had as a volunteer taking calls, are there one or
two that really stand out that you keep coming to
mind in terms of being particularly intense or profound, or
(20:59):
would you feel you made an unusual difference or were
transformed by being in an experience with somebody going from
love this question, there are two calls that kind of
stick out for me. One is one of the first
calls that actually came into the line. So on our
opening day April fourteen one, the first session, it was
(21:20):
all three of the founders. We were on shift together
that day, and the first call that I got it
was just amazing. So the line opened at like three
o'clock that day and maybe up three fifteen or so,
a call came in and it was my first call,
and there was something just like really euphoric about like,
my goodness, one minute ago, like this didn't exist and
(21:41):
now people know about it and our calling in for support.
And I talked to this young man who's out in
Seattle and he was processing of heroes dose on psilocybin
that he had experienced two nights before. And it was
really powerful to remember my training, to be in that
reflective space and to be with this person as they
(22:04):
were just remembering and walking through and trying to understand.
And what was powerful about it was one just being
so proud of like, wow, we created this thing and
people are calling, but also the power of listening without
interjecting my opinions or thoughts or how powerful that was
for him. And after about twenty minutes, I really just listened.
(22:26):
I asked maybe one or two questions, and at the
end of the call, of which he sort of motivated,
he was like, this has been great and I feel
so much better and thank you so much. I feel
like it's very powerful for him to know that I'm
not being judged and I'm not crazy. And I can't
tell you when I'm reading the call logs, because our
voluntaries fill out callogs after each call summarizing what they
(22:48):
did and what was going on. How many people sort
of say this, and we get testimonials right back, people
saying I felt hurt and seen, and I didn't feel
judge and I didn't feel like a bad person. So
it just felt really amazing to do that. And the
other call was maybe a couple of months ago. I
took a call from a young woman who was in
(23:08):
Texas and she was a facilitator and so she worked
at a facility doing retreat work and she was a spaceholder,
and she had a heck of a weekend. There was
a runner, there was drama going on with staff, and
she just was like, I need to talk to somebody.
And so it was amazing that she found out about us,
(23:30):
since she knew we were here and that I could
sit and provide support and offer my insights to a spaceholder,
someone who's other holding space for other people, and that
felt really remarkable and special to me. Thanks for sharing
those stories. I saw it that you and the others
have arranged for Fireside project to be evaluated by a
(23:50):
team at University of California, San Francisco, and so I
wonder are there any preliminary results is yet from that
evaluation and when will a more complete suation be forthcoming? Yes,
so we're so blessed to be able to work with
UCSF and Dr Joseph's A Mario who is on our board,
and also having the support of Dr Rachel Yehuda. I
(24:13):
think that there are definitely poliminary numbers coming out of
that study. So we have, like we said, after each call,
we do send out a post call survey, and that's
what the study is based on. We have about two
and thirty or so responses, and from that we know
that of folks who call in or text in feel
(24:35):
supported and seen. We know that we are impacting folks
calling the e er or if it wasn't for Fireside,
I'm about thirty of those folks said they would have
gone to the r called. And what's interesting about that
is that when we're on the call with folks, we
(24:58):
don't necessarily know how intense things are for folks, you know,
they're not sharing that with us. So they get those
numbers back is pretty powerful, and then we know the
rough amount of who's calling in, who's actively tripping, and
then what substances or psychedelics folks are using. For the
most part, more than seventy of folks who are calling
or six are folks who are working with psilocybin. And
(25:21):
then it goes like psilocybin lsd m DM iwaska and
then the others, And there's hope. I think that the
results of the study will be coming out, I think
before the summer. How about d m T. I'm curious.
You read about people to take this fifteen minute blast
to the universe and feel like lifetimes and they come
(25:41):
back and some don't feel like they're getting back to
baseline or anything approaching it for quite a while. Have
you handled any calls like that or do you know
of other volunteers who have. We have definitely taken some
calls for people who have ingested d m T in
various ways and there are a lot of people who
asked this question a lot will I ever be normal again?
(26:02):
Or will I come back? It's been two weeks or
it's been a couple of days, and I just don't
feel like I did before. And so we're not gonna
lie to people and say, yes, you're fine, everything's okay,
and you are going to return back to normal exactly
the way you were before. We really try to ask
questions about how do you want to feel, and let's
talk about what was the experience like and what are
you noticing? And I think that there are a lot
(26:26):
of people also doing these things alone by themselves and
not with a sitter or with a group. And again,
it feels super important for the support line to be
there to help people at least sit and reflect. And honestly,
that's in my opinion, having that time to sit and
reflect and to be in a place of questioning and
(26:48):
exploring is where the growth happens, and it also releases
people from the worry. When I met you a few
months ago, it's at Miami Wonderland Psychelis conference, around the
same time I met your co founder White, the lawyer
turned the Psychedelic Peers support founder. So tell me about
the origins of that relationship and how this project came
about in the first place. So Josh and I met
(27:10):
in out at a place called black Rock City, Burning
Men in and just a funny, strange story of how
the desert brings people together. But one of my very
good friends, her sister, is friends with Josh, and so
my friend and I went to go visit her sister's
(27:32):
camp and there was like a small gathering and in
that gathering, Josh was there and that's where we met.
And we were with a group of about I don't
know it twelve or fifteen people, and we all decided
that we were going to ride our bikes out to
the playa. And it was at night and folks are
delighting in various things, and we are on our bikes
(27:55):
were riding out to the playa, and it became very
very intense for a bunch of folks, including myself, And
so there was a fraction of us who decided we
were to go back to camp because we just couldn't
be out there. It's just people are just like whizzing
by on bikes and everything's glowing. And this is my
first time to Burning Man by the way, six of us,
we ride our bikes back to camp and just you know,
(28:18):
are grounding, getting in tune with our set and setting,
making sure we felt safe and grounded. And can I
assume you were under the influence of psychelics during this
bike right at night? You can assume yes, okay? And
so we come back to camp, and so I was
there with Josh and we were just just connecting and
holding space for each other as we explored consciousness and whatnot.
(28:42):
And that was our kind of first real connection. And
then we saw each other a few times over the
course of the week a burning man exchanged information and
then played a like wicked game phone tag. For about
a year and last summer we reconnected around the concept
of what became Fireside Project. Josh is a lawyer and
(29:05):
also worked many years on a support line or a
crisis line in San Francisco and thing it's called the
talk line where I want to say, six or seven
years a long time, and he really had the idea
of if there was a support line for psychedelics, and
what would it also mean to ensure that this type
(29:28):
of service is available for all people and helped too
broad in the psychedelic community, and we had all types
of conversations for several months. First we were meaning like
every two weeks, and it was like once a week,
and then it was like we were talking every day
and just really moving this idea forward and officially joined
(29:50):
forces as co founders. I want to say, it was
like August or September something of toy. So what was
it about your background that brought you to this and
to this connection with Josh. Was it about a deep
background in psychedelics or in helping to heal people or
where were you coming from on this? My interest in
(30:12):
this was I saw the need for something like this,
and also a deep part of who I am is
helping to create healing spaces, so helping to create spaces
of healing and wellness. In twenty nineteen, I found out
a project called One Village Healing, which is a bypox
centered wellness platform, And so we're doing reiky, we're doing meditation,
(30:32):
we're doing talk groups, we're doing art therapy, and now
moving towards teaching and educating on psychedelic wellness. And I've
always had a mind and a heart for what I
would call sacred activism, and so really helping to support
creating spaces, creating the means and the infrastructure for folks
(30:54):
to have access to what brings them alive, and to
also name and call out the systems and obstructions that
deter or get in the way of people being most alive. So,
at my heart of hearts, I am what I always say,
a sacred activists. How would you define sacred activism? To me,
sacred activism is using and utilizing the gifts, the innate gifts,
(31:19):
the tools that one has two support deliberation and healing
for all and doing that without wanting to seek gain
or accolades or awards, but because it's the right thing
to do with your life force. And so for me,
that includes organizing, it also includes design elements. I'm a
(31:44):
Rickey Master practitioners also supporting active as well as facilitating,
so I facilitate on all types of different levels, but
really bringing groups together and ensuring that people feel hurt
and seeing that there's a way for ideas also to
be ideated and then moved into action. You've talked about
(32:04):
sacred activism, but in terms of what you think about
sacred activism, what's the role of the psychaelics to me,
sacred activism is not something that I like made up.
It's a term that's been used. And when we talk
about the sacred, we're talking about like spirit, and we're
talking about interconnectedness, and I'm talking about seeing beyond my
(32:29):
lifetime and understanding that there's impact on an energetic level
of what a legacy and like what we do and
how that might show up years and generations from now.
And in my experience within the psychedelic space, it is
for me been psychedelics that have opened my eyes and
(32:52):
heart two that type of reality and work, and that
have helped me see and feel that I have bigger
work to do that's not just for me, and that's
not about building a career, but it's about helping to
(33:14):
support the world and the planet and the humanity generations on.
I read in looking at your background that you spent
quite a number of years some years ago working at
and ultimately directing a project called Amistad America. And Amistad
was the famous the slave ship back in the eighteen
thirties or forties where the Africans who have been slaved
(33:38):
overthrew the captain and the sailors and landed up sailing
into the US and being captured, and somehow the Amistade
showed up in my early years as an academic writing
about the internationalization from the law enforcement, and it was
a remarkable moment when other governments were trying to extradite
the Africans who had revolted, and this thing went to
the U. S. Supreme Court, and it was one of
(33:59):
the I think more elevated moments in the history of
the abolition movement, with the Supreme Court actually ruled in
favor of the Africans who had been enslaved. But I
wonder what was that Amistad American project and what was
the connection, if you can think about this, between your
work on that and the work that you're doing now. Yes,
(34:19):
thank you for going there and bringing that forward. I
love history and I love the process of remembering that
we are all here, that we're all equal, and that
we're here to live our fullest lives. And my time
with Amiston was remarkable and intense, to say the least.
(34:40):
And I was a part of the crew for many years.
So I was a cook and one of the head
educators and became the director of education and then the
enterim executive director towards the end, and I really believed
in the mission of Amiston America, which was about utilizing
(35:01):
the ship. So it was a replica of Amistad Lamistad,
and the ship was the US Coasts certified, had all
the modern day things, a crew of fifteen and literally
its goal was to transverse the triangle of trade in
real time and along the way to teach about the
history of Alamistad and also to talk about how racism
(35:25):
and white supremacy exists still today and help people remember
their role in combating and fighting that. And so we
selled all over The ship sells to England, it's selled
to Serra Leone, It's selled throughout the Caribbean, to South Carolina,
all the way up and down the Eastern seaboard up
to Nova Scotia. At really teaching this history thousands of
(35:48):
people every year. And I do see my life when
I look back at my life and the experiences that
I've had, that it is moving in a direction towards
in my own personal life, be the more free, having
more liberation, helping people to have that, and not forgetting
that there are disparities, not forgetting for whatever privileges one
(36:09):
might have that there is bigger work to do and
that it's all of our responsibility to move that forward,
and that for me it is like what we should
be up to. And so I carry the work of
liberation from my work with Amastad. For sure, it have
carried that into my own personal work and into the
(36:32):
work that I've done for about seven or ten years
now around working with nonprofits and community serving organizations to
support those organizations to be better, to help people understand
what power disparities are happening within their organization and how
to reimagine and reconstruct the those systems. So I've done
(36:54):
a lot of work around diversity, equity and systems change work,
and I feel I get to bring my Ricky mastership,
I get to bring my facilitation, I get to bring
my liberation work. I get to bring my art and
design work into this psychedelic arena. Something that I kept
hidden for a long time from my loved ones and
(37:16):
my community members. I didn't share that I have had
psychedelic experiences that I sit in ceremony that it's a
part of my healing and I'm wanting to as part
of my work with Fireside Project, help people understand, particularly
brown and black folks and those who have been traditionally
marginalized in this country, that there is possibility and for
(37:37):
deep healing with psychedelics, and that it is available, that
it is possible, and that it is our history right
and it is our our birthright to it. So we're
really helping or have a vision to help broaden the
arena or broaden who is in the psychedelic space. So
we have plans for launching an equity plan this year,
(37:59):
just very citing, so are volunteers who are coming from
under resource communities or traditionally marginalized communities will have access
to an equity fund to continue to further their education
and training within the psychedelic space. We are also launching
an Affinity Cohort program which will be volunteers who come
(38:23):
from the bipop communities as well as the veterans, military
veterans and trance communities to be on call for integration
calls for people who come from those identities. We know
people aren't a monolith identity, but it's our step forward
and offering choice and power sharing and so those folks
(38:45):
will support people who share those identities. So, say you've
had a psychedelic experience, and you really want to integrate,
and you really want to talk to somebody who shares
with that identity. So as a black woman, I want
to talk to somebody who's black. I now, you know
that we're going to be launching this in June, can
call or text and say, hey, I would like to
speak with someone from this identity to do an integration call.
(39:08):
That's going to be available, and that's just the beginning.
We also want to again resource those volunteers to have
access to the Equity Fund so that if they want,
they can continue their training and education within the psychedelic space,
so they can be leading research, so they can be
become facilitators, so they can be writing the books, so
they can be writing the articles, and really expanding who
(39:31):
is in the psychedelic space, because right now it is
predominantly why predominantly male lead. And I know in my
heart that the people who have suffered a lot, and
maybe the most in this country are those who are
coming from communities that are enslaved, communities that were persecuted,
communities that don't have wealth. And it is a deep
(39:53):
desire to ensure that their pathways for as many of
those people to have access us too, psychedelics and the
healing that egg can offer. Let's take a break here
and go to an agg If you look at the
(40:21):
latest local ballot initiatives to decriminalize psychedelics. Two of the
places that happened, we're in d C, which is half black,
and Detroit, which I guess is where you're from, which
is three quarters black. So you know, you put these
popular initiatives and people are voting for them, and you're
beginning to see some famous black people more like in sports,
(40:42):
I mean Mike Tyson with his Toad medicine experience, the
or the NBA star lamar Ow talking about his experience
with some of this sort of stuff. So we're beginning
to see it. Why has there been this kind of
psychedelics renaissance emerging? And I oftentimes credit Rick Doblin and
Maps and all their work, and I credit that their
network of researchers who are doing this sort of stuff.
(41:03):
And then I credit also, I think Michael Pollen with
this kind of breakthrough crossover book that many people have
never done psycholics are reading. But I've been thinking about it.
The other key thing is when you have guys like
podcast hosts like Joe Rogan or Tim Ferris or Sam Harris,
who have huge reach, each reaching different communities, but millions
tensibly as the people, and people are just tuning into
(41:24):
them because they like listening to these guys in their guests.
Is there anybody out there in a prominent way among
black media folk who are doing what's ay Rogan or
Harris or Ferris are doing or anything resembling that as yet,
because it seems that might make a significant difference, I
would have to say no, not yet. Anyway, there's a
(41:45):
carefulness that I believe that black folks have to have
when transversing things that are illegal. So there's a privilege
right that we don't have or don't act upon when
it comes to openly talking about the use and using
psychedelics because of their legal status. And so I know
(42:05):
that there's also a very healthy underground that, in my
experience is full of brown and black folks who have
whole systems and networks and are providing support, are growing,
are distributing, are sitting in ceremony. So there's a I think,
a desire to see more people above ground who aren't
(42:26):
sort of holding the banner. And I think that there
are and has been historically people of color utilizing psychedelics
for a long time, but people aren't just out about it.
They're not on the radio or writing articles are being
public because of the legalities. The work that you're doing
(42:47):
and a few others are doing is very important. And
I see some of the folks who black people who
go to Burning Man are talking out a bit. And
I saw Jada Pinkett Smith doing an interview right about
her psycholics use, so the words getting out and I
understand what you're saying about the reservations, right. The fact
that blacks have been dispersonally targeted by the drug war
and more vulnerable all makes sense. But nonetheless, I think
(43:09):
sometimes in the way that Michael Pollen played a key role,
or you think about the role that Michelle Alexander when
she wrote her book The New Gym Crow. It was
other people who been making similar arguments, but Michelle stood
out with a book the right time, the right place,
the right person, framing the argument in a way that
put it together that really is catapulted things forward. I
(43:30):
remember when Black Lives Matter emerged a number of years ago.
One of the things that was so inspiring for me
is that I saw it from where I was sitting
as almost one of the first sort of black civil
rights manifestations that was fully embracing more or less the
totality of drug policy reform and becoming our uninhibited allies
on drug policy reform. Now, the psychelic piece wasn't really
(43:50):
part of that discussion, but I think we need that
sort of weaving together of different strands of drug policy reform,
social justice, criminal justice with the psychedelics area. Yes, when
I was first coming into a butt like into this
space or people wanting me to speak and whatever, and
I would get these questions about what do we need
to do to have more brown and like people in
(44:11):
the psychedelic movement and how's the movement? And I was like,
what movement? There's a psychedelic movement. It was very curious
language to me, because when I think about movement work,
I was like, has this movement been going on since
the sixties? Like when't this movement start? And who's leading in?
What are the objectives and what are we asking for.
I think that there's a lot of different lenses and
(44:34):
a lot of different opinions about what the psychedelic spaces
or movement or indra street people are putting it in
all these different buckets, and so I think that there's
a lot to be said around how do we really
move things forward in an active way and help to
amplify the objectives of all the goals of these different pieces.
(44:55):
To me, ultimately, all movements are one movement. It's about liberation.
Everything is moving people toward greater liberation, greater freedom, greater
access to be resourced to be healthy, whole and happy.
And yes, I'm all about how do we pull in
psychedelics into the conversation when we're talking about social justice
so that it's not taboo or dangerous, but actually as
(45:19):
a tool for our well being as round and black
folks in this country. I mean, I tell you when
people would ask me who is the drug policy reform movement,
and one of my answers to that would be, it's
the people who are there, and it's your showing up
in this space in the last year or two is
making a difference and other people beginning to show up.
And I think we think about indigenous folks, we think
(45:40):
about Native Americans in Peyote, we think about ayahuasca and
Latin American all of this. There's also with Eboga and
the weety tradition in West Africa. So it's not as
if this is entirely alien. In fact, some of this
tradition comes from the same part of the world where
many African Americans who came here in shackles originally came from.
All of our people come from land folks. We all
(46:04):
come from folks who had tribes. We all come from people. Literally,
Like why we created Fireside project of the name is
that for millennia people have been gathering around the fireside
in ceremony and healing in community. We all come from
people who utilized medicine, plant medicines, whether they be psychedelic
or not, for our healing and our advancement. And so
(46:27):
it's a reclamation. And we live in a global society now,
so we don't have to just be like, Okay, you
came from this country or these regions and so you
can only use this. But it's like, how do we
have reciprocity, like you're lifting, how do we acknowledge our
roots and understand that like this isn't foreign or alien
to us. And there's so much around education that needs
to be done in a deep and powerful way about
(46:49):
undoing from the war on drugs and not just facts
and figures, but like and as somatic and in our body.
And then how do we build true relationship again with
psychedelics in a way that is helpful to us and
for generations to come. Yeah. Yeah, I feel optimistic about
where this is headed. And I just thinking especially on
(47:09):
the issue of more black people showing up and being
part of this in the way that you have, and
then some of the major figures in sports and entertainment
making a difference. I do hope a book is going
to be forthcoming one of these years about Black people
in psychedelics that be early begins to tie it all
together in terms of the ways that you've been doing.
In our conversation when you were speaking, the person who
(47:31):
came to my mind immediately. I saw her speak a
couple of times, and I'm so grateful in my life
is Dr Droid de Grew. Her work has been really
foundational to how I view and think about systems and
how they can change. And I remember her talking and
she was sharing a story, and one of the things
(47:52):
that she shared was like, you gotta find your lane
doing movement work and system stage work, Find your lane
and stay there, any lane, and stay in it, and
then just go. And I think about that often. I
think about that often as a resentering, as fuel um
(48:13):
to continue my sacred activism. And I think about, Okay, now,
what if I don't stay in my lane? What if
I want to go in this lane over here? I
want to be in this lane over So see if
I'm swerving and switching lanes every five minutes or whatever?
Am I also been laboring someone else? Am I slowing
down the movement because I can't decide what lane I
(48:36):
want to be in and how I want to contribute?
And so for me, I think about, there has been
war and turmoil for humanity from the beginning, however far
you want to go back, And I think where we
are now, I truly believe that we need constant resiliency work,
(49:02):
physical resilience, spiritual resilience to stay. If you're showing up
to change, if your eyes are open and you can
see that these systems are broken, how do we build
new ones? How do we build access? And so for me,
I think those who have decided to be in the
space of a psychedelic healing and psychedelic wellness. No, it's
(49:26):
not a luxury to me. It is about creating awareness
and pathways in access and educating people about not only
the science of psychedelics but also about how they can
help and support in the long term ones spiritual and
physical resilience. And it's also about this idea of coalition
(49:49):
building and no, that psychedelics aren't a monolith, that they
must work in tandem with other tools and with other movements.
And I'm someone who can do many things well and
have struggled, and I've been that person swerving on the
highway between lanes, the highway of life. I want to
do this, I want to do this, do this, And
so I feel like I have arrived in a very
(50:13):
outweigh about being an advocate and an activist for access
to healing spaces, including psychedelics or use of psychedelics. And
I think if I had advice for other people who
are listening, it's be aware that systems are broken and
ship's fucked up, and that there's work to do. Choose
what work you want to do and do it well
(50:34):
and keep yourself fortified and healthy. Good parting words ANIFA
to listen. Thanks so much, I'm going to send in
my contribution to Fireside Project now that you've been on here,
and I just want to wish you and your co
founder Josh White, and all the volunteers and others involved
with this project more power to you. I hope it
grows and grows beautifully. I hope the evaluations come back
(50:55):
powerfully and the word gets out, and I hope you
find yourself leading and helping people enter this space who
just a year or two ago would not have imagined
entering it, but really need to be, and that good
things will happen there. So thank you, thank you. If
you're enjoying Psychoactive, please tell your friends about it, or
(51:19):
you can write us a review at Apple Podcasts or
wherever you get your podcasts. We love to hear from
our listeners. If you'd like to share your own stories,
comments and ideas, then leave us a message at one
eight three three seven seven nine sixty that's eight three
three psycho zero, or you can email us at Psychoactive
(51:40):
at protozoa dot com, or find me on Twitter at
Ethan Natalman. You can also find contact information in our
show notes. Psychoactive is a production of I Heart Radio
and Protozoa Pictures. It's hosted by me Ethan Nadelman. It's
produced by no h'm osband and Josh Stain. The executive
producers are Hillen Golden, Ari Handel, Elizabeth Geesus and Darren
(52:03):
Aronotsky from Protozoa Pictures, Alex Williams and Matt Frederick from
My Heart Radio and me Ethan Edelman. Our music is
by Ari Blucien and Especial thanks to a Brio, s
F Bianca Grimshaw and Robert BP. Next week, join me
(52:29):
for my conversation with Professor Philippe Bouguas, the brilliant and
courageous ethnographer who studied drug users and drug dealers for
almost forty years, including almost twenty hanging out with crack
dealers in East Haarlem in Philadelphia. Every single large and
even small American city has a phenomenon of a of
(52:52):
a racially and class divided set of segregated poverty, and
that is not normal. I wanted to show what its
effect is on the people scrambling to survive. Subscribe to
Cycleactive now see it, don't miss it.
M Hi. I'm Ethan Natalman and this is Psychoactive, a
production of my Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is
the show where we talk about all things drugs. But
any views expressed here do not represent those of my
Heart Media, Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed,
(00:22):
heed as an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they
may not even represent my own and nothing contained in
this show should be used as medical advice or encouragement
to use any type of drouth. One of the most
(00:43):
popular episodes the Psychoactive to date has been the one
where I invited my friend Julie Holland to service my
co host and answer questions with me from you the audience.
So we're going to record another one of those episodes,
and we need your questions. Leave us a voicemail with
a question as detailed as possible at one eight three, three, seven,
(01:04):
seven nine sixty, or you can record a voice memo
and send it to Psychoactive at protozoa dot com. I'm
sure it's going to be a great second go with this. Hello,
Psychoactive listeners. I find myself these days doing more episodes
about psychedelics, and I think part of that is just
(01:24):
I'm so fascinated by everything that's going on in that area.
Part of it was just attending to conferences on psychedelics
in Miami and New York at the latter part of
One of the more remarkable people I met at these
conferences is a woman named Hanifa Nio Washington. She's the
co founder and chief strategy officer of the Fireside Project,
(01:47):
which is the Psychedelic Piers Support Line, which just sounds
like a great idea to me. It's been written up
in Rolling Stone, Forbes, Esquire, a whole bunch of other places. Hanifa,
thanks so much for joining me today. Thank you. I'm
so having to be here with you. Ethan. Yeah, it's
good to be doing this. You know, we had to
keep postponing for all sorts of reasons. I'm glad to
finally have you on here. So let me just start
(02:10):
off when I heard about what you were doing and
met you and the Psychedelic Peer Support Line. Obviously, I'm
doing episodes about all the sort of research studies and
the researchers who are looking at psychedelics and people are
doing ketamine assisted psychotherapy, but you're really operating at a
different level with the people you're talking about in a
psychedelic peer support line are essentially people who are doing
(02:32):
this outside the research setting, doing it quite illegally, even
if it's nobody's or almost nobody' getting arrested for anymore.
So I wanted to ask you what exactly is this
line doing? Who are the people calling? What do they
understand is going to happen when they call the line? Sure? Yeah,
So Fire syd Project runs and operates the Psychedelic Peer
Support Line, and this line is really for anybody who
(02:55):
is actively tripping, anybody who's a facilitator or in the
psychedelic space, holding space for others and wanting to support
and understand processing their trip afterwards. So we're are supporting
people who are actively tripping, we're s supporting people who
are supporting other people tripping, and we're supporting people who
are seeking to process or integrate any past trip. So
(03:18):
that trip could be last night, or could be a
trip that happened twenty years ago. And this is a
service that is free, This is a service that is confidential.
We feel as we move into this next psychedelic space,
in history. Here, as we legalize and decriminalize, we have
to have risk reduction and support. Without risk reduction, the
(03:41):
decrim movement and legalization, it's maybe taking a step backward
or moving itself into risky spaces, and so we also
want to help support people understand psychedelic uses happening. Though
we do not condone the use of illegal substances or
want people to be partaking any legal activities, we know
that people are using more and more, sometimes for the
(04:02):
first time, and often now in these COVID times, people
are alone in their apartments wanting to seek healing and relief,
and we know folks are having more access to it,
and so at any time, if someone has a phone
and is in a headspace enough while they are working
with psychedelics or afterwards, you can call six to Fireside
from three o'clock PM to three am specific time, and
(04:26):
an amazing volunteer will be there to support you either
through call or text, and we provide emotional support. We're
not replacing emergency services, we're not replacing medical services, and
we are getting folks calling in. We've just reached a
fillar mark, which is amazing, and about of our calls
are people who are actively in a psychedelic experience, and
(04:49):
I'm roughly about sixty year cent or so of the
other calls for folks who are integrating our processing and
past experience. We also get people calling in like print calls,
we get people wanting information and something that's outside of
the scope of our line is supporting people pre trip.
So if someone wants to call in and has a
(05:09):
question about well how much should I take and can
I mix these two things together and where should I
do this and where can I get this, we don't
provide that type of support. So we're really supporting people
during and after and really not wanting anyone to be alone.
We see ourselves as a safety net ensuring that anybody
who's actively tripping, anybody who needs support afterwards, has at
(05:29):
least somewhere to call to be supported and without judgment.
We are seeing people calling from all over the nation.
We are a nationwide service. We have people calling from
east coast, west coast, midwest, four corners, all over. We're
getting calls from all regions of the country. And we definitely,
(05:50):
like many people, have our eyes and hearts and organ
and are going to be really doing a big push
in doing outreach there as organ moves into three with
implementing Measure one on nine. And if you just explain
to our audience what Measure one on nine in Oregon
is the ballot initiative one on nine And Oregon makes
it legal for there to be psilocybin therapy facilities and facilitators,
(06:16):
so folks will be able to open clinics or facilities
that support patients with the use of psilocybin. So this
measure really is going to have a big impact on
access to psychedelic therapy with psilocybin as well as impacting
the entire ecosystem around that in terms of patients coming in, education, awareness, growers,
(06:38):
and et cetera. Let me ask you this, So tell
me more about the volunteers. Have all of them done psychedelics?
Have all of them had at least one bad trip?
Have all or many of them previously worked on support
lines suicide hotlines? And are the types of hotlines like that?
How do you decide who's deciding whether somebody can be
a volunteer or who are you rejecting? What can you
(07:00):
tell me? Yeah, when we first started, we were unsure
who all wild apply for this type of position. It
is a volunteership. We invite people to volunteer for a year.
We invite people to volunteer for a four hour shift
every week at the same time, and we've had over
four and fifty people apply for what it is to
(07:20):
be about seventy slots, and we are really looking for
folks who have various lived experiences, different identities, and who
ultimately ethan really understand the value of peer support that
is forced and foremost not everybody has done every or
has experience with every single psychedelic out there. Right, I
(07:43):
think it's important that it is uplift and say there's
no monolitht psychedelic experience. Everyone has different reactions to different
substances and chemicals and amounts and things like this. But ultimately,
in our volunteers, we are looking for people who, if
I was having a really challenging trip experience when I
called in or we're texted in, is this person able
(08:05):
to reflect to me and listen to me and hold
me an unconditional care and non judgment. So we really
encourage our volunteers to hang their credentials at the door.
We're not looking for one type of volunteers so we
do a four day training with our volunteers and it's
really focused on removing the ego or removing the self
(08:29):
out of the way. We're not wanting to fix people
or to guide them. We're not shamans. And in a
way like this for really peers and peers who have
had their own experiences, their own life altering experiences or
transformational experiences, be that with psychedelics or not, and really
are ready to beat with someone in their journey. And
(08:53):
so we're with them, we're side by side. We're not
guiding them to change or not be in a space
that might be challenging, but we're there to listen, to
reflect that, to support, to ask questions that matter. And
it's a really special and I would say sacred experience
to hold that space for others. And so our volunteers
(09:14):
also come from all over the world. We accept volunteers
from all different countries of people in Germany and Australia,
the UK and Canada, and all across the United States,
all different ages, all different lived experiences and identities. Some
folks are deep in the psychedelic space. Some people are
students and teachers, mothers and parents. So we really don't
(09:38):
have one type of stereotype or type of character we're
looking for. But really, at the end of the day,
it's about is this person able to hold space? Can
they be with someone in their experience, whether that experience
is challenging or euphoric, and are they able to also
grow and be open to growth and feedback and learning
(10:00):
along the way. Is it safe to assume that all
of the volunteers have had psycholo experiences? Are almost all
it's safe to say that all of our volunteers have
had transformative life experiences, whether they're psychedelic or not. That's
our volunteers. They apply. The application process is pretty extensive.
It's the application has a lot of narrative. So we're
(10:21):
asking questions about mindfulness, We're asking questions about people's experiences
with life changing and spiritual experiences. We're asking people questions
about how they hold space for others, and also about
their basic background education, more history and things like this.
And so when we say pure support, we mean that
people who get at people who understand, yes, people have
(10:43):
had their own psychedelic experiences and or other spiritual or
transformational experience. Because I would think that if I was
calling such a line. I'd want somebody who has the
types of skills and background and disposition understand that you're describing.
I'd also, you know, hope that person had their own,
you know, share of bad trips so they could on
(11:03):
some level empathize. Obviously, bad trips take all sorts of directions.
I think about two of the bad trips that I had.
By and large, mushrooms have been my favorite psychedelic and
most of the experiences have been very good and sometimes
memorable for decades thereafter. But I think about two where
I fell into a sort of really you know, deep depression.
(11:26):
I've never really struggled with depression that much, but when
I read about her talk about having they'll sometimes describe
it as like there's black edges around everything, the dark
side of you can't see the light, you can't see
the joy. It's all of that. And I handled those experiences.
I think one time I was at myself. One time
went with a partner, but I didn't really have somebody
who was trained to tell me out of that, and
(11:47):
I used two different approaches. The first time was I
had some M d m A on hand, and when
I went into a very dark space, I just took
the M D M A and that kind of helped
lifted from a dark place into a light place. And
the second time it happened was really dark, was on
a beach and everything was looking like like death and dark,
(12:10):
and I know you can't run away from a bad trip,
and so in that time what I did was I
almost envisioned the bad trip as being like this big
ominous wave that I couldn't run away from, and where
I had no alternative but to dive into the belly
of this big dark wave. And I literally, like in
my body, I dived into the sand, but figuratively went
(12:31):
deep into that wave, and and at work that came
out the other side and the depression lifted, and it
also it became almost like a one eighty where what
had been dark and ugly and ominous and all of
a sudden was becoming beautiful and enlightened. Those are my
own experiences. I've told that to people when somebody's asking
(12:52):
in advance, like what happens if it goes in a
dark place. Those are the types of advice I give.
But I want to wonder what you think of the
advice I gave, and whether that's ever the sort of
advice that your volunteers would be getting. Wow, thanks so
much for sharing your experience. That sounds really powerful and
similar to some experiences. But I've also had and I think, yeah,
this concept of the only way out is through, right,
(13:16):
It's like, this is happening, it's normal, and we're going
to get through it. Just so just keep taking the
breath of the time, step at a time, and just
keep going. And so absolutely that advice is something similar
to what we would share the line and have shared
on the line. And what's so powerful too is and
you may have heard that in your life of work,
(13:38):
in your time. We don't believe in bad trips, and
we are also not like the Bad Trip hotline. So
we're support line and so we provide emotional support and
care for folks. And so it's really about listening. So
if you get called and with this experience you had
or something, I would be listening to you, I would
reflect back to you what I heard you say. I
(13:59):
would share with you. Yes, this feeling of darkness is
a normal feeling that people experience with psilocybin, and that
you're okay and that you're going to move through this
experience I think that when we talk about bad trips,
we associate darkness with negativity, with feeling uncomfortable with bad
(14:20):
and there's so much growth and potential and learning and
possibility in that darkness and in that challenge and in
that resistance. Really is what that is. And so when
we allow, and like you said, just allow and just
go into it, it's magical and beautiful and powerful the
(14:41):
alchemy and the transmutation that can happen. And so I
think that people call the line when they are in
challenging spaces. People call the line when they are in
a youth for work space and just want to know
that someone's there with them and that they're tethered right
to some sense of grounding and reality, and it's really
(15:02):
quite powerful. I'm really still sitting with what you shared,
and I just really appreciate it. We'll be talking more
after we hear this ad. I downloaded your app, the
(15:24):
fireside a Project app, and I looked at the website
and I noticed that some of it he's emphasizing as
you start off by saying we're here to offer emotional support,
and then a lot of it looks a bit like
it is written by a lawyer saying it's not medical,
it's not therapeutic, we're not a suicide hipeline. Here's all
the things we're not doing. So there's the requisite language
that a lawyer puts there to say, how are your
ass and all this sort of stuff, and you have
(15:45):
to also be upfront with people. But I'm curious when
it goes into a very difficult place. Have there been
people who have called the line since you started a
year or so ago who have really been having suicidal
ideation or where they'vevolunteer has been worried that this was
beyond what they were either equipped or allowed to deal with. Yes, yes,
(16:08):
there absolutely have been suicide audition calls on the line,
and our volunteers do go through a four day training
and there are things that are inside the scope of
what we do and there are things that are outside
of the scope. It's so interesting that you picked up
on that. There's this sort of two b sides of
what we're saying in our communication to the world, which
(16:28):
is we're here promotional support, we're here for you, We're
glad you're here, and then there's the got to cover
your ass. These are the hard lines. The other founder
is background is a lawyer. So interesting, it's just a
reality that we face right now. We do have to
be really cleared up front that we're not medical professionals,
that we are not emergency support staff, and we have
(16:48):
processes within our protocols to pause calls or stop calls
and transfer them out if they are moving into space
where it feels like the Suicide Prevention hot and for example,
needs to be referred to or urgency services. And it
has been growing and a challenge because our volunteers are
very empathetic for the most part and very wanting to help,
(17:12):
and it's not always a hun percent clear is this
called moving to a space where this is outside of
the scope. Is this person who's exhibiting suicidal ideation do
they have the means? Are they just saying that they
feel suicidal? So there's a lot of gray area there,
and we really are very conservative when it comes to
that because we want people to have the care that
(17:34):
they need by professionals or by people who can support them.
And so we have had to transfer calls outside of
the scope of our line, and we're thankful the National
Suits of Prevention Hotline. We're thankful for the crisis text line,
and that we have the means to also within the
technology do live transfers to emergency services as well. Now
(17:56):
tell me that we're the volunteers, some of them are
going through the very conversations. What is happening in terms
of they're processing it themselves. Are there periodic kind of
group conversations among the volunteers to process some of the
conversations they've had, are their therapists who have volunteered to
assist the volunteers and processing what they had to deal with?
(18:18):
Or what's the cumultive learning experience for the volunteers once
you've done this ten times to what extent is there's
some collaborative process and therapeutic process having among and for
the volunteers. That's awesome. Question is so interesting. As the
line launched in April, we went from a very low
call volume and now we're you know, each week you're
getting more and more calls, more texts coming through, and
(18:41):
different types of calls and starting to notice patterns and
repeat callers and things like this. So we're really learning
a lot as we go. Without our volunteers the support
learn when existence so thankful for them and there's a
lot of support during the shift. So volunteer comes in
when they log in there at home or in a quiet,
safe place, they log into the system and then there
with a team during their shifts. So there's two to
(19:04):
three other volunteers with them, and then there's a supervisor
and so the supervisors there to support the volunteers, and
so there are updates that the supervisor gives folks, but
they're also like listening to two calls if the volunteer
needs kind of support, they're giving feedback about their approach
and also debriefing with either the individual volunteer or with
(19:28):
the whole squad. So if there was a challenging call
and the volunteer needs sort of one on one support,
the supervisor that's on duty does that, and then if
it makes sense it feels right, the whole team during
that time will debrief what was going on. And we've
had community meetings where we bring and invite the entire
community of volunteers together to share how things are going
(19:50):
on the line, to share new protocols, just be witnessed
as they share in process what some of the experiences
have been like for them on the line. We are
moving in the space where We've actually just brought on
a clinical consultant who's going to be available for individuals
but also to support us building and fortifying our protocols
as well. And there are spaces where we offer ongoing training.
(20:16):
We offer looks like a once a month ongoing training.
It's different things, and sometimes it's some of our volunteers
offering their expertise and they're really building the communities. One
of our volunteers offers yoga sessions, there's a meditation session
you can drop into, and so as we grow, we're
going to be really building that tool kit of support
(20:36):
for our volunteers. Before I turned to asking you about
the Zendel Project, which is the second carm aduction project
at Burning Man, the last question I wanted to hit
you with was when you think about the experiences you've
had as a volunteer taking calls, are there one or
two that really stand out that you keep coming to
mind in terms of being particularly intense or profound, or
(20:59):
would you feel you made an unusual difference or were
transformed by being in an experience with somebody going from
love this question, there are two calls that kind of
stick out for me. One is one of the first
calls that actually came into the line. So on our
opening day April fourteen one, the first session, it was
(21:20):
all three of the founders. We were on shift together
that day, and the first call that I got it
was just amazing. So the line opened at like three
o'clock that day and maybe up three fifteen or so,
a call came in and it was my first call,
and there was something just like really euphoric about like,
my goodness, one minute ago, like this didn't exist and
(21:41):
now people know about it and our calling in for support.
And I talked to this young man who's out in
Seattle and he was processing of heroes dose on psilocybin
that he had experienced two nights before. And it was
really powerful to remember my training, to be in that
reflective space and to be with this person as they
(22:04):
were just remembering and walking through and trying to understand.
And what was powerful about it was one just being
so proud of like, wow, we created this thing and
people are calling, but also the power of listening without
interjecting my opinions or thoughts or how powerful that was
for him. And after about twenty minutes, I really just listened.
(22:26):
I asked maybe one or two questions, and at the
end of the call, of which he sort of motivated,
he was like, this has been great and I feel
so much better and thank you so much. I feel
like it's very powerful for him to know that I'm
not being judged and I'm not crazy. And I can't
tell you when I'm reading the call logs, because our
voluntaries fill out callogs after each call summarizing what they
(22:48):
did and what was going on. How many people sort
of say this, and we get testimonials right back, people
saying I felt hurt and seen, and I didn't feel
judge and I didn't feel like a bad person. So
it just felt really amazing to do that. And the
other call was maybe a couple of months ago. I
took a call from a young woman who was in
(23:08):
Texas and she was a facilitator and so she worked
at a facility doing retreat work and she was a spaceholder,
and she had a heck of a weekend. There was
a runner, there was drama going on with staff, and
she just was like, I need to talk to somebody.
And so it was amazing that she found out about us,
(23:30):
since she knew we were here and that I could
sit and provide support and offer my insights to a spaceholder,
someone who's other holding space for other people, and that
felt really remarkable and special to me. Thanks for sharing
those stories. I saw it that you and the others
have arranged for Fireside project to be evaluated by a
(23:50):
team at University of California, San Francisco, and so I
wonder are there any preliminary results is yet from that
evaluation and when will a more complete suation be forthcoming? Yes,
so we're so blessed to be able to work with
UCSF and Dr Joseph's A Mario who is on our board,
and also having the support of Dr Rachel Yehuda. I
(24:13):
think that there are definitely poliminary numbers coming out of
that study. So we have, like we said, after each call,
we do send out a post call survey, and that's
what the study is based on. We have about two
and thirty or so responses, and from that we know
that of folks who call in or text in feel
(24:35):
supported and seen. We know that we are impacting folks
calling the e er or if it wasn't for Fireside,
I'm about thirty of those folks said they would have
gone to the r called. And what's interesting about that
is that when we're on the call with folks, we
(24:58):
don't necessarily know how intense things are for folks, you know,
they're not sharing that with us. So they get those
numbers back is pretty powerful, and then we know the
rough amount of who's calling in, who's actively tripping, and
then what substances or psychedelics folks are using. For the
most part, more than seventy of folks who are calling
or six are folks who are working with psilocybin. And
(25:21):
then it goes like psilocybin lsd m DM iwaska and
then the others, And there's hope. I think that the
results of the study will be coming out, I think
before the summer. How about d m T. I'm curious.
You read about people to take this fifteen minute blast
to the universe and feel like lifetimes and they come
(25:41):
back and some don't feel like they're getting back to
baseline or anything approaching it for quite a while. Have
you handled any calls like that or do you know
of other volunteers who have. We have definitely taken some
calls for people who have ingested d m T in
various ways and there are a lot of people who
asked this question a lot will I ever be normal again?
(26:02):
Or will I come back? It's been two weeks or
it's been a couple of days, and I just don't
feel like I did before. And so we're not gonna
lie to people and say, yes, you're fine, everything's okay,
and you are going to return back to normal exactly
the way you were before. We really try to ask
questions about how do you want to feel, and let's
talk about what was the experience like and what are
you noticing? And I think that there are a lot
(26:26):
of people also doing these things alone by themselves and
not with a sitter or with a group. And again,
it feels super important for the support line to be
there to help people at least sit and reflect. And honestly,
that's in my opinion, having that time to sit and
reflect and to be in a place of questioning and
(26:48):
exploring is where the growth happens, and it also releases
people from the worry. When I met you a few
months ago, it's at Miami Wonderland Psychelis conference, around the
same time I met your co founder White, the lawyer
turned the Psychedelic Peers support founder. So tell me about
the origins of that relationship and how this project came
about in the first place. So Josh and I met
(27:10):
in out at a place called black Rock City, Burning
Men in and just a funny, strange story of how
the desert brings people together. But one of my very
good friends, her sister, is friends with Josh, and so
my friend and I went to go visit her sister's
(27:32):
camp and there was like a small gathering and in
that gathering, Josh was there and that's where we met.
And we were with a group of about I don't
know it twelve or fifteen people, and we all decided
that we were going to ride our bikes out to
the playa. And it was at night and folks are
delighting in various things, and we are on our bikes
(27:55):
were riding out to the playa, and it became very
very intense for a bunch of folks, including myself, And
so there was a fraction of us who decided we
were to go back to camp because we just couldn't
be out there. It's just people are just like whizzing
by on bikes and everything's glowing. And this is my
first time to Burning Man by the way, six of us,
we ride our bikes back to camp and just you know,
(28:18):
are grounding, getting in tune with our set and setting,
making sure we felt safe and grounded. And can I
assume you were under the influence of psychelics during this
bike right at night? You can assume yes, okay? And
so we come back to camp, and so I was
there with Josh and we were just just connecting and
holding space for each other as we explored consciousness and whatnot.
(28:42):
And that was our kind of first real connection. And
then we saw each other a few times over the
course of the week a burning man exchanged information and
then played a like wicked game phone tag. For about
a year and last summer we reconnected around the concept
of what became Fireside Project. Josh is a lawyer and
(29:05):
also worked many years on a support line or a
crisis line in San Francisco and thing it's called the
talk line where I want to say, six or seven
years a long time, and he really had the idea
of if there was a support line for psychedelics, and
what would it also mean to ensure that this type
(29:28):
of service is available for all people and helped too
broad in the psychedelic community, and we had all types
of conversations for several months. First we were meaning like
every two weeks, and it was like once a week,
and then it was like we were talking every day
and just really moving this idea forward and officially joined
(29:50):
forces as co founders. I want to say, it was
like August or September something of toy. So what was
it about your background that brought you to this and
to this connection with Josh. Was it about a deep
background in psychedelics or in helping to heal people or
where were you coming from on this? My interest in
(30:12):
this was I saw the need for something like this,
and also a deep part of who I am is
helping to create healing spaces, so helping to create spaces
of healing and wellness. In twenty nineteen, I found out
a project called One Village Healing, which is a bypox
centered wellness platform, And so we're doing reiky, we're doing meditation,
(30:32):
we're doing talk groups, we're doing art therapy, and now
moving towards teaching and educating on psychedelic wellness. And I've
always had a mind and a heart for what I
would call sacred activism, and so really helping to support
creating spaces, creating the means and the infrastructure for folks
(30:54):
to have access to what brings them alive, and to
also name and call out the systems and obstructions that
deter or get in the way of people being most alive. So,
at my heart of hearts, I am what I always say,
a sacred activists. How would you define sacred activism? To me,
sacred activism is using and utilizing the gifts, the innate gifts,
(31:19):
the tools that one has two support deliberation and healing
for all and doing that without wanting to seek gain
or accolades or awards, but because it's the right thing
to do with your life force. And so for me,
that includes organizing, it also includes design elements. I'm a
(31:44):
Rickey Master practitioners also supporting active as well as facilitating,
so I facilitate on all types of different levels, but
really bringing groups together and ensuring that people feel hurt
and seeing that there's a way for ideas also to
be ideated and then moved into action. You've talked about
(32:04):
sacred activism, but in terms of what you think about
sacred activism, what's the role of the psychaelics to me,
sacred activism is not something that I like made up.
It's a term that's been used. And when we talk
about the sacred, we're talking about like spirit, and we're
talking about interconnectedness, and I'm talking about seeing beyond my
(32:29):
lifetime and understanding that there's impact on an energetic level
of what a legacy and like what we do and
how that might show up years and generations from now.
And in my experience within the psychedelic space, it is
for me been psychedelics that have opened my eyes and
(32:52):
heart two that type of reality and work, and that
have helped me see and feel that I have bigger
work to do that's not just for me, and that's
not about building a career, but it's about helping to
(33:14):
support the world and the planet and the humanity generations on.
I read in looking at your background that you spent
quite a number of years some years ago working at
and ultimately directing a project called Amistad America. And Amistad
was the famous the slave ship back in the eighteen
thirties or forties where the Africans who have been slaved
(33:38):
overthrew the captain and the sailors and landed up sailing
into the US and being captured, and somehow the Amistade
showed up in my early years as an academic writing
about the internationalization from the law enforcement, and it was
a remarkable moment when other governments were trying to extradite
the Africans who had revolted, and this thing went to
the U. S. Supreme Court, and it was one of
(33:59):
the I think more elevated moments in the history of
the abolition movement, with the Supreme Court actually ruled in
favor of the Africans who had been enslaved. But I
wonder what was that Amistad American project and what was
the connection, if you can think about this, between your
work on that and the work that you're doing now. Yes,
(34:19):
thank you for going there and bringing that forward. I
love history and I love the process of remembering that
we are all here, that we're all equal, and that
we're here to live our fullest lives. And my time
with Amiston was remarkable and intense, to say the least.
(34:40):
And I was a part of the crew for many years.
So I was a cook and one of the head
educators and became the director of education and then the
enterim executive director towards the end, and I really believed
in the mission of Amiston America, which was about utilizing
(35:01):
the ship. So it was a replica of Amistad Lamistad,
and the ship was the US Coasts certified, had all
the modern day things, a crew of fifteen and literally
its goal was to transverse the triangle of trade in
real time and along the way to teach about the
history of Alamistad and also to talk about how racism
(35:25):
and white supremacy exists still today and help people remember
their role in combating and fighting that. And so we
selled all over The ship sells to England, it's selled
to Serra Leone, It's selled throughout the Caribbean, to South Carolina,
all the way up and down the Eastern seaboard up
to Nova Scotia. At really teaching this history thousands of
(35:48):
people every year. And I do see my life when
I look back at my life and the experiences that
I've had, that it is moving in a direction towards
in my own personal life, be the more free, having
more liberation, helping people to have that, and not forgetting
that there are disparities, not forgetting for whatever privileges one
(36:09):
might have that there is bigger work to do and
that it's all of our responsibility to move that forward,
and that for me it is like what we should
be up to. And so I carry the work of
liberation from my work with Amastad. For sure, it have
carried that into my own personal work and into the
(36:32):
work that I've done for about seven or ten years
now around working with nonprofits and community serving organizations to
support those organizations to be better, to help people understand
what power disparities are happening within their organization and how
to reimagine and reconstruct the those systems. So I've done
(36:54):
a lot of work around diversity, equity and systems change work,
and I feel I get to bring my Ricky mastership,
I get to bring my facilitation, I get to bring
my liberation work. I get to bring my art and
design work into this psychedelic arena. Something that I kept
hidden for a long time from my loved ones and
(37:16):
my community members. I didn't share that I have had
psychedelic experiences that I sit in ceremony that it's a
part of my healing and I'm wanting to as part
of my work with Fireside Project, help people understand, particularly
brown and black folks and those who have been traditionally
marginalized in this country, that there is possibility and for
(37:37):
deep healing with psychedelics, and that it is available, that
it is possible, and that it is our history right
and it is our our birthright to it. So we're
really helping or have a vision to help broaden the
arena or broaden who is in the psychedelic space. So
we have plans for launching an equity plan this year,
(37:59):
just very citing, so are volunteers who are coming from
under resource communities or traditionally marginalized communities will have access
to an equity fund to continue to further their education
and training within the psychedelic space. We are also launching
an Affinity Cohort program which will be volunteers who come
(38:23):
from the bipop communities as well as the veterans, military
veterans and trance communities to be on call for integration
calls for people who come from those identities. We know
people aren't a monolith identity, but it's our step forward
and offering choice and power sharing and so those folks
(38:45):
will support people who share those identities. So, say you've
had a psychedelic experience, and you really want to integrate,
and you really want to talk to somebody who shares
with that identity. So as a black woman, I want
to talk to somebody who's black. I now, you know
that we're going to be launching this in June, can
call or text and say, hey, I would like to
speak with someone from this identity to do an integration call.
(39:08):
That's going to be available, and that's just the beginning.
We also want to again resource those volunteers to have
access to the Equity Fund so that if they want,
they can continue their training and education within the psychedelic space,
so they can be leading research, so they can be
become facilitators, so they can be writing the books, so
they can be writing the articles, and really expanding who
(39:31):
is in the psychedelic space, because right now it is
predominantly why predominantly male lead. And I know in my
heart that the people who have suffered a lot, and
maybe the most in this country are those who are
coming from communities that are enslaved, communities that were persecuted,
communities that don't have wealth. And it is a deep
(39:53):
desire to ensure that their pathways for as many of
those people to have access us too, psychedelics and the
healing that egg can offer. Let's take a break here
and go to an agg If you look at the
(40:21):
latest local ballot initiatives to decriminalize psychedelics. Two of the
places that happened, we're in d C, which is half black,
and Detroit, which I guess is where you're from, which
is three quarters black. So you know, you put these
popular initiatives and people are voting for them, and you're
beginning to see some famous black people more like in sports,
(40:42):
I mean Mike Tyson with his Toad medicine experience, the
or the NBA star lamar Ow talking about his experience
with some of this sort of stuff. So we're beginning
to see it. Why has there been this kind of
psychedelics renaissance emerging? And I oftentimes credit Rick Doblin and
Maps and all their work, and I credit that their
network of researchers who are doing this sort of stuff.
(41:03):
And then I credit also, I think Michael Pollen with
this kind of breakthrough crossover book that many people have
never done psycholics are reading. But I've been thinking about it.
The other key thing is when you have guys like
podcast hosts like Joe Rogan or Tim Ferris or Sam Harris,
who have huge reach, each reaching different communities, but millions
tensibly as the people, and people are just tuning into
(41:24):
them because they like listening to these guys in their guests.
Is there anybody out there in a prominent way among
black media folk who are doing what's ay Rogan or
Harris or Ferris are doing or anything resembling that as yet,
because it seems that might make a significant difference, I
would have to say no, not yet. Anyway, there's a
(41:45):
carefulness that I believe that black folks have to have
when transversing things that are illegal. So there's a privilege
right that we don't have or don't act upon when
it comes to openly talking about the use and using
psychedelics because of their legal status. And so I know
(42:05):
that there's also a very healthy underground that, in my
experience is full of brown and black folks who have
whole systems and networks and are providing support, are growing,
are distributing, are sitting in ceremony. So there's a I think,
a desire to see more people above ground who aren't
(42:26):
sort of holding the banner. And I think that there
are and has been historically people of color utilizing psychedelics
for a long time, but people aren't just out about it.
They're not on the radio or writing articles are being
public because of the legalities. The work that you're doing
(42:47):
and a few others are doing is very important. And
I see some of the folks who black people who
go to Burning Man are talking out a bit. And
I saw Jada Pinkett Smith doing an interview right about
her psycholics use, so the words getting out and I
understand what you're saying about the reservations, right. The fact
that blacks have been dispersonally targeted by the drug war
and more vulnerable all makes sense. But nonetheless, I think
(43:09):
sometimes in the way that Michael Pollen played a key role,
or you think about the role that Michelle Alexander when
she wrote her book The New Gym Crow. It was
other people who been making similar arguments, but Michelle stood
out with a book the right time, the right place,
the right person, framing the argument in a way that
put it together that really is catapulted things forward. I
(43:30):
remember when Black Lives Matter emerged a number of years ago.
One of the things that was so inspiring for me
is that I saw it from where I was sitting
as almost one of the first sort of black civil
rights manifestations that was fully embracing more or less the
totality of drug policy reform and becoming our uninhibited allies
on drug policy reform. Now, the psychelic piece wasn't really
(43:50):
part of that discussion, but I think we need that
sort of weaving together of different strands of drug policy reform,
social justice, criminal justice with the psychedelics area. Yes, when
I was first coming into a butt like into this
space or people wanting me to speak and whatever, and
I would get these questions about what do we need
to do to have more brown and like people in
(44:11):
the psychedelic movement and how's the movement? And I was like,
what movement? There's a psychedelic movement. It was very curious
language to me, because when I think about movement work,
I was like, has this movement been going on since
the sixties? Like when't this movement start? And who's leading in?
What are the objectives and what are we asking for.
I think that there's a lot of different lenses and
(44:34):
a lot of different opinions about what the psychedelic spaces
or movement or indra street people are putting it in
all these different buckets, and so I think that there's
a lot to be said around how do we really
move things forward in an active way and help to
amplify the objectives of all the goals of these different pieces.
(44:55):
To me, ultimately, all movements are one movement. It's about liberation.
Everything is moving people toward greater liberation, greater freedom, greater
access to be resourced to be healthy, whole and happy.
And yes, I'm all about how do we pull in
psychedelics into the conversation when we're talking about social justice
so that it's not taboo or dangerous, but actually as
(45:19):
a tool for our well being as round and black
folks in this country. I mean, I tell you when
people would ask me who is the drug policy reform movement,
and one of my answers to that would be, it's
the people who are there, and it's your showing up
in this space in the last year or two is
making a difference and other people beginning to show up.
And I think we think about indigenous folks, we think
(45:40):
about Native Americans in Peyote, we think about ayahuasca and
Latin American all of this. There's also with Eboga and
the weety tradition in West Africa. So it's not as
if this is entirely alien. In fact, some of this
tradition comes from the same part of the world where
many African Americans who came here in shackles originally came from.
All of our people come from land folks. We all
(46:04):
come from folks who had tribes. We all come from people. Literally,
Like why we created Fireside project of the name is
that for millennia people have been gathering around the fireside
in ceremony and healing in community. We all come from
people who utilized medicine, plant medicines, whether they be psychedelic
or not, for our healing and our advancement. And so
(46:27):
it's a reclamation. And we live in a global society now,
so we don't have to just be like, Okay, you
came from this country or these regions and so you
can only use this. But it's like, how do we
have reciprocity, like you're lifting, how do we acknowledge our
roots and understand that like this isn't foreign or alien
to us. And there's so much around education that needs
to be done in a deep and powerful way about
(46:49):
undoing from the war on drugs and not just facts
and figures, but like and as somatic and in our body.
And then how do we build true relationship again with
psychedelics in a way that is helpful to us and
for generations to come. Yeah. Yeah, I feel optimistic about
where this is headed. And I just thinking especially on
(47:09):
the issue of more black people showing up and being
part of this in the way that you have, and
then some of the major figures in sports and entertainment
making a difference. I do hope a book is going
to be forthcoming one of these years about Black people
in psychedelics that be early begins to tie it all
together in terms of the ways that you've been doing.
In our conversation when you were speaking, the person who
(47:31):
came to my mind immediately. I saw her speak a
couple of times, and I'm so grateful in my life
is Dr Droid de Grew. Her work has been really
foundational to how I view and think about systems and
how they can change. And I remember her talking and
she was sharing a story, and one of the things
(47:52):
that she shared was like, you gotta find your lane
doing movement work and system stage work, Find your lane
and stay there, any lane, and stay in it, and
then just go. And I think about that often. I
think about that often as a resentering, as fuel um
(48:13):
to continue my sacred activism. And I think about, Okay, now,
what if I don't stay in my lane? What if
I want to go in this lane over here? I
want to be in this lane over So see if
I'm swerving and switching lanes every five minutes or whatever?
Am I also been laboring someone else? Am I slowing
down the movement because I can't decide what lane I
(48:36):
want to be in and how I want to contribute?
And so for me, I think about, there has been
war and turmoil for humanity from the beginning, however far
you want to go back, And I think where we
are now, I truly believe that we need constant resiliency work,
(49:02):
physical resilience, spiritual resilience to stay. If you're showing up
to change, if your eyes are open and you can
see that these systems are broken, how do we build
new ones? How do we build access? And so for me,
I think those who have decided to be in the
space of a psychedelic healing and psychedelic wellness. No, it's
(49:26):
not a luxury to me. It is about creating awareness
and pathways in access and educating people about not only
the science of psychedelics but also about how they can
help and support in the long term ones spiritual and
physical resilience. And it's also about this idea of coalition
(49:49):
building and no, that psychedelics aren't a monolith, that they
must work in tandem with other tools and with other movements.
And I'm someone who can do many things well and
have struggled, and I've been that person swerving on the
highway between lanes, the highway of life. I want to
do this, I want to do this, do this, And
so I feel like I have arrived in a very
(50:13):
outweigh about being an advocate and an activist for access
to healing spaces, including psychedelics or use of psychedelics. And
I think if I had advice for other people who
are listening, it's be aware that systems are broken and
ship's fucked up, and that there's work to do. Choose
what work you want to do and do it well
(50:34):
and keep yourself fortified and healthy. Good parting words ANIFA
to listen. Thanks so much, I'm going to send in
my contribution to Fireside Project now that you've been on here,
and I just want to wish you and your co
founder Josh White, and all the volunteers and others involved
with this project more power to you. I hope it
grows and grows beautifully. I hope the evaluations come back
(50:55):
powerfully and the word gets out, and I hope you
find yourself leading and helping people enter this space who
just a year or two ago would not have imagined
entering it, but really need to be, and that good
things will happen there. So thank you, thank you. If
you're enjoying Psychoactive, please tell your friends about it, or
(51:19):
you can write us a review at Apple Podcasts or
wherever you get your podcasts. We love to hear from
our listeners. If you'd like to share your own stories,
comments and ideas, then leave us a message at one
eight three three seven seven nine sixty that's eight three
three psycho zero, or you can email us at Psychoactive
(51:40):
at protozoa dot com, or find me on Twitter at
Ethan Natalman. You can also find contact information in our
show notes. Psychoactive is a production of I Heart Radio
and Protozoa Pictures. It's hosted by me Ethan Nadelman. It's
produced by no h'm osband and Josh Stain. The executive
producers are Hillen Golden, Ari Handel, Elizabeth Geesus and Darren
(52:03):
Aronotsky from Protozoa Pictures, Alex Williams and Matt Frederick from
My Heart Radio and me Ethan Edelman. Our music is
by Ari Blucien and Especial thanks to a Brio, s
F Bianca Grimshaw and Robert BP. Next week, join me
(52:29):
for my conversation with Professor Philippe Bouguas, the brilliant and
courageous ethnographer who studied drug users and drug dealers for
almost forty years, including almost twenty hanging out with crack
dealers in East Haarlem in Philadelphia. Every single large and
even small American city has a phenomenon of a of
(52:52):
a racially and class divided set of segregated poverty, and
that is not normal. I wanted to show what its
effect is on the people scrambling to survive. Subscribe to
Cycleactive now see it, don't miss it.
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