September 30, 2021 • 25 mins
If someone had suggested just five years ago that the day would soon come when the majority leader of the U.S. Senate would co-sponsor a comprehensive bill to legalize marijuana federally, most people would have asked what that person was smoking. But that day has come, with New York’s Senator Chuck Schumer joining with New Jersey Senator Cory Booker and Oregon Senator Ron Wyden in circulating a draft Cannabis Administration & Opportunity Act they say will soon be introduced.
Senator Schumer took fifteen minutes this past Sunday morning to address my questions: Why is he so personally involved in this issue given everything else on his plate? What about first resolving the critical issue, on which most members of Congress already agree, of passing the Safe Banking Act to allow marijuana businesses to work with banks just like all other businesses do? How does he deal with the opposition from not just most Republicans but also a few of his Democratic colleagues as well as President Biden? Will the Senate take the next step on reforming drug sentencing laws? And, by the way, has the Senator ever smoked marijuana?
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Ethan Nadelman, and this is Psychoactive, a production
of iHeart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the show
where we talk about all things drugs. But any views
expressed here do not represent those of iHeart Media, Protozoa Pictures,
or their executives and employees. Indeed, as an inveterate contrarian,
(00:25):
I can tell you they may not even represent my own.
And nothing contained in this show should be used as
medical advice or encouragement to use any type of drug. Hello,
Psychoactive listeners. Today's guest is of a sort of different
(00:48):
sort than we normally have. It is Senator Chuck Schumer,
the New York state senator who is currently the Senate
Majority Leader, which makes him, you know, basically one of
the three most powerful politicians in America, together with Nancy Pelosi,
the Speaker of the House, and Joe Biden, the President.
(01:10):
So I have to say I felt very fortunate to
be able to get Senator Schumer on Psychoactive, but he
was willing, and I think it's interesting that in the
midst of everything else that's going on in the country,
with debt limits and infrastructure bills, and UH voting rights
and a host of other issues that for the Senate
Majority leader to take the time to talk about marijuana
(01:32):
is a bit stunning, and that's one of the reasons
I wanted to talk with him, and also to find
out more about what's going on from his perspective about
how marijuana reform proceeds at the congressional level. Now, most
of you you will already know that the notion of
legalizing marijuana, not just for medical purposes, but more broadly
is widely popular United States. Now the polar show of
(01:54):
the sixty of Americans saying it's time to legalize it,
to legally regulate marijuana. Eighteen states I think it is
now have legalized marijuana, including a whole bunch earlier this
year thirty seven I think of legalized medical marijuana. So
there's huge support for this stuff. You know, it seems
like this momentum is gonna be hard to stop. The
question people keep asking is what about the federal government?
(02:18):
What about Congress? Are we going to see an actual
federal legalization of one sort or another. Now we know
that Congress is always the last to move when it
comes to drug policy, and it starts with ballot initiatives
and goes to state legislatures, then eventually gets to Congress.
And we're in a challenging moment because, unfortunately for US
drug policy reformers, the President Joe Biden, is among the
(02:41):
worst Democrats when it comes to embracing either marijuana reform
or broader drug policy reform. He's kind of a diet
in the whole old drug warrior, and so that is
definitely one of the obstacles to moving forward. Now, most
of the action on marijuana reform has been, in fact,
almost all of it so far has been in the House.
(03:02):
You know, when I was running Drug Policy Alliance going
back fifteen years ago, every year we were trying to
get some amendment to basically have the federal government approved
medical marijuana. But then things began to move a lot
more quickly in recent years. But it's almost all on
the House side. So, I mean, there's all sorts of
bills out there, some introduced by Republicans, many more by Democrats.
As you would expect, there's sort of a partisan divide here,
(03:24):
with Democrats much more sympathetic, but a handful of Republicans
also being relatively good on this issue. While some Democrats
remained bad on the issue. The two big bills that
have been moving out of the House. One is something
called the Safe Banking Act, and the Safe Banking Act
basically is a bill intended to allow marijuana businesses to
(03:50):
basically access regular federally registered banks, to allow them to
you know, get credit from banks, to allow customers to
use credit cards. You know, all of this or the thing,
and everybody agrees it's important to get this passed. I
remember years ago at a forum in Denver, Colorado, and
former Governor hicken Looper from Colorado. Now the Senator was asked,
what's the most important thing the federal government can do,
(04:12):
and he said, to just clean up this whole banking issue,
because our folks in the merrijoa industry are at risk
by having to be so cash intensive. They're getting ripped
off by criminals. You know, this is not good for customers.
I mean, customers have to pay with cash, they can't
use a credit card. It's raising everybody's expenses. Everybody would
benefit from this thing, both the big players in the
(04:32):
industry as well as the smaller ones. In the House,
the Safe Banking Act has now passed five times. I
think it is typically as a standalone bill, most recently
in the In the Spring, I think all of the
Democrats voted in favor of it, and even a fifty
one of the Republicans voted in favor of it. And
then just last week Congressman Prolmer in Colorado got the
(04:56):
Safe Banking Act added to the National Defense Authors a
sh bill, the one that funds the Pentagon, the funds
all of America's military. That is something that actolutely has
to pass and that generally passes the bipartisan support. This
amendment will reduce the risk of violent crime in our communities.
By dealing in all cash, these businesses and their employees
(05:16):
become targets for robbery, assaults, burglaries, and more. Get At
the same time, there's an understandable resistance on the part
of many marijuana policy reformers to just letting this one
financial piece get fixed, even though would broadly benefit all
sorts of folks, both the big guys and the little guys,
(05:37):
while all of the other elements of marijuana reform from
taking it out of the Control Substances Act, descheduling it,
which is effectively legalization, and all of the restorative justice
aspects of this thing, and the expungement of criminal offenses,
all these sorts of things. And of course the leader
on this has been Corey Booker, the new Jersey Senator,
who has basically been saying, I don't want to see
(05:59):
this Safe Bank Act go through until we're addressing the
broader aspects of marijuana reform. I don't know about other
members of the Senate, but I will lay myself down
to do everything I can to stop an easy banking
bill that's gonna allow all these corporations to make a
lot more money off of this as opposed to focusing
on the restorative justice aspects. Also in the House, last year,
(06:22):
they pass something called the More Act. A big day
for the legalized marijuana movement in America, the U. S.
House of Representatives today passed a bill that would decriminalize weed.
It's the first time Congress has ever voted on the issue.
The bill would also erase nonviolent federal marijuana convictions, but
it stands no chance in the Senate, so it will
(06:44):
not become law. And the More Act is the comprehensive
marijuana legalization bill that includes all the key elements of
racial and social equity that we saw incorporated in the
New York state law and a range of other state laws.
It does include the safe banking provisions, but it includes
things like expunging past marijuana offenses. It includes things like
(07:07):
providing dedicated funding so that people who have been victimized
by the War on Drugs or otherwise discriminated against have
an opportunity to participate in the legal industry. It tries
to give a leg up to the smaller guys trying
to enter the industry, so the whole thing isn't just
overwhelmingly dominated by the big guys. This bill has been
out there in Congress for a few years. Last year,
(07:30):
almost everybody was shocked by the fact that the More
Act passed the House, and by a fairly substantial margin.
I mean, people thought this was gonna take years to happen.
And when people ask why did it past last year?
Part of it was that the Democrats had, you know,
some margin there, but they got some Republican votes a handful.
It's also the fact that this was in the wake
(07:51):
of what happened with George Floyd and the powerful reactions
throughout the country to the racism of the criminal justice system,
so that gave it a lift. Some people point out
the fact that the very powerful congressman from Massachusetts, Congressman
Neil who heads the House Ways and Means Committee, who's
not all that sympathetic a marijuana reform, but that he
didn't want to be a problem on this issue last
(08:13):
year because he was facing a challenge from the left.
Uh So, a whole range of variables. Now this year,
the More Act is being reintroduced. In fact, I think
it's gonna be this week the end of September when
it's gonna House Judiciary Committee is gonna start discussing it.
They're gonna start marking it up, making some revisions from
last year's one, And it's not clear it's gonna pass
(08:35):
this year. I mean, the Democrats lost a whole bunch
of seats in the election last year, so their margin
vera is less, some of the momentum has possibly been lost.
So we're gonna find out later this year whether their
votes are there, whether the Speaker, Nancy Pelosi wants to
put this thing to the full House to vote on.
Assuming it happens, I mean, then the question becomes what
(08:57):
does the Senate do now? On the Senate side, Schumer
and Senator Booker and Senator Widen from Oregon. They said
they don't want to see this banking stuff move forward
without having the broader legalization or at least some of
the broader legalization and the social equity racial equity provisions incorporated.
So a few months ago, those three senators decided to
(09:20):
introduce basically a marijuana legalization bills, not even a bill, actually,
it's just a draft bill and to get comments on it.
And there's an understanding that, you know, Democrats have fifty
votes fifty one if you count the Vice President. I
say that there's probably no more than forty of those
fifty Democratic senators who are clearly in favor. There's a
(09:41):
couple of Republicans, I mean, good old Rand Paul and
a few others who are sympathetic to legalization, but sometimes
they don't like the broader social and racial equity stuff.
So this thing is now out there, this legalization bill.
Nobody expects it to pass any time soon. So the
question on everybody's mind is what's gonna happen a safe
banking How fast is this broader legalization bill going to
(10:03):
pass now? Center Schumer is pivotal he's the majority leader.
He's decided to put his own name on this bill.
He's decided to vote the time and energy in the
midst of everything else. I've known uh Center Schumer a
little bit over the years we've interacted, and I have
to say he was among the worst Democrats, always supporting
(10:23):
mandatory miniums, tough on drugs, part of the drug war rhetoric,
kind of unapologetic about the whole thing. And he's begun
to shift, I mean, actually quite significantly, unsentencing reform. He's
become an advocate of repealing or reforming the mandatory minimums.
But the more remarkable thing is that he stepped forward
on marijuana reform. His shift is reflective of a broader
(10:45):
shift in the national consciousness and in the consciousness of
democratic politicians. So it was a Sunday morning. He was
in Homer's office in Brooklyn. I'm home on the Upper
West Side and us to New Yorkers. Got on the
phone for about fifteen minutes where I could ask them
all sorts of questions. Hi you Senator Schumer. Hello Ethan,
(11:11):
So listen. I know you're busy. Only got a few minutes,
so I'm just gonna jump right in with you. Okay, okay,
one sec. One sec. Guess justin I'm on it. I'm
on a yeah, it will do it in about ten minutes. Okay, okay, Ethan,
we gotta get going because I gotta be gone by
eleven thirty. So Senator Schumer, thank you ever so much
for joining me. So, first of all, I gotta ask you.
(11:32):
I mean, you're in the majority leader, you're dealing with,
got to raise the debt limit, this hospital of government, shutdown,
the bipartisan infrastructure bill, voting rights Trumpet's Republican Party, threatening
constitutional democracy. Why have you chosen to prioritize marijuana reform
this year? Well, first, you know, we can walk in
chew gum at the same time we have There's a
(11:52):
whole lot that has to be done. But I believe
strongly in this for so many reasons. First, the obvious
just view of freedom. You know, when marijuana was first
legalized or decriminalized in some of the early Western states,
everybody said, oh, you know, the sky is gonna fall,
crime will go up, drug use will go up. Neither
(12:13):
of those happened, and the American people realize this, Ethan.
So we have much broader support than we have ever
had from libertarians, from people who are all over the spectrum.
Even South Dakota voted in a referendum to legalize this year.
So that's number one. Number two is just the pain
that this brings. I mean, a young man, young woman,
(12:34):
usually of color, uh is caught with a little bit
of marijuana in their pocket and they act like they've
been selling a whole lot of heroine half the time
because of the over criminalization of the law, and getting
rid of that is very, very important, as well as
expunging records. So there's so much justice here, and this
is gonna take a while. No one thought we'd snap
our fingers and get it all done. When Senator Widen
(12:55):
Booker and I introduced the legislation, we called it sort
of a studied bill. We want to hear people's opinions,
and right now we're building support. It's going to take
a little while. Obviously, we need to get sixty votes, right, Okay, Well,
this ray is an important question. So the Center, i
think is never voted on marijuana before, but the House
has voted a lot of marijuana, and in particular, in
addition to the More Act, which they approved last year,
(13:17):
and they're gonna start considering again this week. Um, there's
the Safe Banking Act, right, that's past the House five
times in the spring. Democrats voted in favor, over half
the Republicans vote in favor. Kinsman Pearl Mutter just had
added it to the National Defense Authorization Act. So why
not let this thing move forward while the long term
process of the legalization bill, uh, you know, needs to
(13:39):
work yourself through. Senators Booker, Widen and I have come
to agreement that if we let this bill out, it
will make it much harder and take longer to pass
comprehensive reform. We certainly want the provisions similar to the
Safe Banking Act in our bill, but to get more
moderate people, to get some Republicans, to get the financial
services industry behind a company inhensive bill is the way
(14:01):
to go. It's the right thing to do, is comprehensive reform.
That's what we believe in. All the pain that's been
suffered by so many people for so long will not
be alleviated because banks can now do some funding of
the growing and processing of marijuana, and so we think
that the quickest way to get it all done is
do it together. If you let just the banking provisions pass,
(14:25):
it will make it much harder to get more Republicans
and more conservatives on the bill. We're trying to create
a coalition for comprehensive reform. So let me play a
bit of Devil's advocate here, because on torn on this
issue myself. But in point of fact, right, you know,
the legalization thing, I mean, the More Act going through
the Congress last year is almost like a magical moment
where everything came together and even the activists were surprised
went through so fast. So the question to hear is,
(14:48):
you know, I hear people say, well, it's gonna be
the fact cats, the big guys who are gonna benefit
the most from safe banking and dollar wise, that's true,
but proportionally it's probably the little guys, including some of
the ones we want to help through all the social
racial equity stuff, who are going to benefit. Isn't there
a maneuver here we're perhaps safe banking gets combined with
some elements of your legalization bill, Ethan, We would look
(15:10):
at that if we could, you know, I mean, we
have said our bills to study bill, and we're looking
for suggestions and changes, and certainly you know, we're not
saying the bill has to be exactly as is, but
to just allow the banking bill through, I think is
that is there a way through this whole National Defense
Authorization Act to add on some of the social equity,
the expungement, those sort of provisions to the state banking thing.
(15:33):
When you guys get the Conference committee, well it's it's
you know, look, everything should be explored and if people
on in the Senate can add some things on, that
would make it more of a paliative. But again, um,
I think I don't want to bargain against myself here.
We need comprehensive reform. That's what we need. We need,
we need legalization, and um we're gonna fight hard that
(15:56):
way with our friends in the banking industry who want
of fun things. We get that, and we're fine with that,
and I agree some of that would flow by the way,
But if you don't have real provisions in the bills, um,
that makes sure that funding wherever it comes from, whether
it's through taxes and government or through banking, gets to
the communities who are hurt the most. You know, the
(16:17):
way water goes downhill and it's going to go to
all of the easy, fat cat, more well to do people,
So you've got to be really careful about that. That's true,
But the fat cats do a better access to capital,
and I have been able to work around this stuff
they do, they do. Look, I'm not arguing against the specifics.
I'm just telling you that it's my view that if
we if we are in range of getting comprehensive reform,
(16:40):
and we're making great progress, and remember, as majority leader,
I can determine what's put on the floor. McConnell said
he'd never put a legalization or decriminalization bill on the floor.
I will when we get the votes and build the coalition,
and the Banking Act will be part of that coalition. Right,
But you've got a lot of Reclinton Democrats. I mean
you look at it's not just Feinstein has always been
ter a go on this stuff. But you got Mansion,
(17:01):
you know, you got you got Tester in Montana, you
got to New Hampshire, all of them. Right, Ethan, this
isn't gonna pass unless we get bipartisan support. And I
would urge your listeners. You know these days Republicans are
more open to this. You heard what I said about
South Dakota before. But you've got the libertarian folks on
board at sixty what is it, sixty eight percent of
Americans are in favor of legalization. Don't think because people
(17:25):
from the certain senators from some states were opposed two
years ago that they might not be able to be
with us now. Well, well, sen so I gotta ask
you this question. I remember years ago you and I talking.
I was always kind of frustrated because I saw you
as a kind of you know, knee jerk promondatory minimum,
a little too sympathetic the drug war. But on marijuana,
even many years ago, you seem kind of softer, more
(17:47):
open minded on this, and I have to ask you,
apart from the broader rational issues, to be against marijuana prohibition.
I mean, you started college in the late sixties early seventies.
What was your experience with marijuana back then? Where you
somebody who smoked a kay usually in your younger years. No,
you know, I never smoked marijuana myself, never ever, ever, ever, Um,
But uh, you know, I I believe that just because
(18:11):
I didn't, I want to. This is people should make
their choices and not have the government, particularly in a
crazy bus system and criminal justice system impose it. Well,
I must say. I mean, you know, I was in
the minority at college who didn't smoke it, although more
people didn't than you think. We were once at dinner
table at senior year and somebody said, you know, I
(18:32):
never I never smoked weed, and a bunch of people
me either. Me either, but a lot did. Don't get
me wrong. Well, now you're living in the one state
where it's legal to walk down the street of the
sidewalk and light up a joint and the cops campust you.
So U the opportunity is still there, and you know
the biggest increase. And I was always sympathetic. You're right.
I was always sympathetic to the legalization decriminal but now
a majority leader. That's why I put in the bill
(18:55):
this and move it. And I'm gonna put a lot
of effort into this. I know we have other things
to do in the next month or so. This is
gonna be a longer campaign than that, but I'm going
to keep working at it until we get it done. Ethan,
We'll be talking more after we hear this ADM. There's
(19:23):
an outed in the daily news today from some guy
who just got a prison at thirty years, and he says, look,
here's an opportunity Schumer can move forward on the broader
sentencing reform. You know that first step back that reduced
mandatory minimums. Now we can make it retroactive. Is that
going to happen sometime soon? Well, I can't tell you that.
I've supported the First Step Act, and I've supported, I've encouraged.
I'm for the Justice and Policing Act, which would deal
(19:45):
with you know, the racism and discrimination that's been in
law enforcement for so long. And I'm also, um, I
am also for lots of different provisions that would take
the first step back there further, Absolutely, do you have
regrets about some of mandatory miniums you supported years ago? Look,
you know the world's change ethan crime was a huge
(20:05):
issue back then. It was tearing the communities apart, it
was dividing people. The world changed, and um, you know
you have to change with it right now. Those laws
are far too restrictive and should be changed. Even then,
I was for an escape valve where people could make
an appeal away from mandatory sentence, but New Gangridge took
(20:27):
that out of the bill. Okay, well, here here's the
question of you. Then everybody's freaking out with understandable reasons
now about fentenel, But some of what the politicians are
doing from the Biden administration, it's almost bipartisan, is reacting
to federal the same way we did to Crack thirty
years ago with a total freak out, enhanced penalties, mandatory miniums,
you know, criminalized first, asked questions later. So the question is,
(20:47):
we know that mandatory miniums don't really work here. We
know that most of the people being caught up in
those things are low level people. Sometimes they don't even
know fentinels in what they're selling. They're all their majority
black and brown. Can we be assured that whatever happens
with fentinyl coming out of the Congress is not going
to include mandatory minnows. Look, we have to learn, we
have to learn from our experience, and we have to
(21:08):
draft these things carefully and not panic. I agree with that.
And when it comes to Republicans, I remember, you know,
good old Rand Paul was one of the first Republicans
out in favor of this thing. I'm kind of disgusted
with his support for Trumpism these days. For a guy
who's a libertarian to support Donald Trump. Is it's despicable.
It's absolutely it's despicable. You know. On the other hand,
(21:28):
I look at a guy like grass Lee, who was
a real drug ward dinosaur years ago, but now it
looks like Key and Durban have almost become a team
and trying to move forward some sensible reform. I mean,
how do you understand Grassley's transition? Is the world is
changing and as mentioned earlier, crime was rampant back in
the nineties and it is no longer. There are also
(21:48):
a lot better ways to deal with criminalization. I'm trying
to put into this Reconciliation bill community alternatives to violence.
It's a very important thing to do. And you know,
we learned, we learned how to do things better and
smarter and more humanely as you go forward, and we
have to learn in many of these ways. Okay, last question,
So you know, the only thing it was heartbreaking to
(22:10):
me in the Democratic primaries. I mean, obviously I support
Joe Biden. I wanted to be a great president, but
he was the worst of all the Democrats in the
in the primaries on these marijuana issue, on broader drug issues,
he seems like almost like fine Stein sort of stuck
in the mud, old drug warrior, not sympathetic to legally
regulating marijuana, slow and sentence before him. Have you talked
to him about these issues anytime this year? Do you
(22:32):
get any read from him? Yeah? I look, he's been
preoccupied with a lot of stuff. But I am going
to lobby him heavily on this issue. And uh, you know,
I've had a few conversations, but not many, but it
will increase. Mm hmm. Okay, Senator, Well listen, I really
appreciate your taking the time. You know, please do whatever
you can to save the world from the threats to
constitutional democracy from Republican Trumps. Um. We're trying, man, We're
(22:55):
fighting the fight. We got many fronts we're fighting on.
But God gave me a lot of energy, so I'm
firing away. And I do appreciate your stepping out in
Your leadership on marijuana reform has been bold. You were
there for some years now. It makes a real difference.
Thank you, Senator. Psychoactive is a production of I Heart
Radio and Protozoa Pictures. It's hosted by me Ethan Naedelman.
(23:19):
It's produced by Kacha Kumkova and Ben Cabrick. The executive
producers are Dylan Golden, Ari Handel, Elizabeth Geesus and Darren
Aronovski for Protozoa Pictures, Alice Williams and Matt Frederick for
I Heart Radio, and me Ethan Naedelman. Our music is
by Ari Belusian and a special thanks to a Vivit Brio,
Sef Bianca Grimshaw and Robert Beatty. If you'd like to
(23:42):
share your own stories, comments or ideas, please leave us
a message at eight three three seven seven nine sixty.
That's one eight three three Psycho zero. You can also
email us as psychoactive at Protozoa dot or find me
on Twitter at Ethan Nadelman. And if you couldn't keep
(24:04):
track of all this, find the information in the show notes.
Next week we'll be talking with Leonard Picard, who allegedly
was the greatest producer of illicit LSD in world history,
spent twenty years in a maximum security prison, and somewhat
(24:27):
miraculously was released just this year. Your reputation as being
the biggest or one of the biggest producers of LSD
in global history, can you say, well, yep, that's true,
or are you in a position where it's really hard
to you know, own that at this point, or whether
maybe it's actually actually not true. Well, the government's um
(24:49):
primary witness stated that the lab I he alleged I
was responsible for producer about a kilogram a month for
twenty years, but or set to me is quite fanciful.
But I do remain under federal supervision, and I must
maintain my position under oath at federal trial that the
(25:12):
allegations are our millerad government conjecture. Subscribe to Cycleactive now
see it, don't miss it.
Hi, I'm Ethan Nadelman, and this is Psychoactive, a production
of iHeart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the show
where we talk about all things drugs. But any views
expressed here do not represent those of iHeart Media, Protozoa Pictures,
or their executives and employees. Indeed, as an inveterate contrarian,
(00:25):
I can tell you they may not even represent my own.
And nothing contained in this show should be used as
medical advice or encouragement to use any type of drug. Hello,
Psychoactive listeners. Today's guest is of a sort of different
(00:48):
sort than we normally have. It is Senator Chuck Schumer,
the New York state senator who is currently the Senate
Majority Leader, which makes him, you know, basically one of
the three most powerful politicians in America, together with Nancy Pelosi,
the Speaker of the House, and Joe Biden, the President.
(01:10):
So I have to say I felt very fortunate to
be able to get Senator Schumer on Psychoactive, but he
was willing, and I think it's interesting that in the
midst of everything else that's going on in the country,
with debt limits and infrastructure bills, and UH voting rights
and a host of other issues that for the Senate
Majority leader to take the time to talk about marijuana
(01:32):
is a bit stunning, and that's one of the reasons
I wanted to talk with him, and also to find
out more about what's going on from his perspective about
how marijuana reform proceeds at the congressional level. Now, most
of you you will already know that the notion of
legalizing marijuana, not just for medical purposes, but more broadly
is widely popular United States. Now the polar show of
(01:54):
the sixty of Americans saying it's time to legalize it,
to legally regulate marijuana. Eighteen states I think it is
now have legalized marijuana, including a whole bunch earlier this
year thirty seven I think of legalized medical marijuana. So
there's huge support for this stuff. You know, it seems
like this momentum is gonna be hard to stop. The
question people keep asking is what about the federal government?
(02:18):
What about Congress? Are we going to see an actual
federal legalization of one sort or another. Now we know
that Congress is always the last to move when it
comes to drug policy, and it starts with ballot initiatives
and goes to state legislatures, then eventually gets to Congress.
And we're in a challenging moment because, unfortunately for US
drug policy reformers, the President Joe Biden, is among the
(02:41):
worst Democrats when it comes to embracing either marijuana reform
or broader drug policy reform. He's kind of a diet
in the whole old drug warrior, and so that is
definitely one of the obstacles to moving forward. Now, most
of the action on marijuana reform has been, in fact,
almost all of it so far has been in the House.
(03:02):
You know, when I was running Drug Policy Alliance going
back fifteen years ago, every year we were trying to
get some amendment to basically have the federal government approved
medical marijuana. But then things began to move a lot
more quickly in recent years. But it's almost all on
the House side. So, I mean, there's all sorts of
bills out there, some introduced by Republicans, many more by Democrats.
As you would expect, there's sort of a partisan divide here,
(03:24):
with Democrats much more sympathetic, but a handful of Republicans
also being relatively good on this issue. While some Democrats
remained bad on the issue. The two big bills that
have been moving out of the House. One is something
called the Safe Banking Act, and the Safe Banking Act
basically is a bill intended to allow marijuana businesses to
(03:50):
basically access regular federally registered banks, to allow them to
you know, get credit from banks, to allow customers to
use credit cards. You know, all of this or the thing,
and everybody agrees it's important to get this passed. I
remember years ago at a forum in Denver, Colorado, and
former Governor hicken Looper from Colorado. Now the Senator was asked,
what's the most important thing the federal government can do,
(04:12):
and he said, to just clean up this whole banking issue,
because our folks in the merrijoa industry are at risk
by having to be so cash intensive. They're getting ripped
off by criminals. You know, this is not good for customers.
I mean, customers have to pay with cash, they can't
use a credit card. It's raising everybody's expenses. Everybody would
benefit from this thing, both the big players in the
(04:32):
industry as well as the smaller ones. In the House,
the Safe Banking Act has now passed five times. I
think it is typically as a standalone bill, most recently
in the In the Spring, I think all of the
Democrats voted in favor of it, and even a fifty
one of the Republicans voted in favor of it. And
then just last week Congressman Prolmer in Colorado got the
(04:56):
Safe Banking Act added to the National Defense Authors a
sh bill, the one that funds the Pentagon, the funds
all of America's military. That is something that actolutely has
to pass and that generally passes the bipartisan support. This
amendment will reduce the risk of violent crime in our communities.
By dealing in all cash, these businesses and their employees
(05:16):
become targets for robbery, assaults, burglaries, and more. Get At
the same time, there's an understandable resistance on the part
of many marijuana policy reformers to just letting this one
financial piece get fixed, even though would broadly benefit all
sorts of folks, both the big guys and the little guys,
(05:37):
while all of the other elements of marijuana reform from
taking it out of the Control Substances Act, descheduling it,
which is effectively legalization, and all of the restorative justice
aspects of this thing, and the expungement of criminal offenses,
all these sorts of things. And of course the leader
on this has been Corey Booker, the new Jersey Senator,
who has basically been saying, I don't want to see
(05:59):
this Safe Bank Act go through until we're addressing the
broader aspects of marijuana reform. I don't know about other
members of the Senate, but I will lay myself down
to do everything I can to stop an easy banking
bill that's gonna allow all these corporations to make a
lot more money off of this as opposed to focusing
on the restorative justice aspects. Also in the House, last year,
(06:22):
they pass something called the More Act. A big day
for the legalized marijuana movement in America, the U. S.
House of Representatives today passed a bill that would decriminalize weed.
It's the first time Congress has ever voted on the issue.
The bill would also erase nonviolent federal marijuana convictions, but
it stands no chance in the Senate, so it will
(06:44):
not become law. And the More Act is the comprehensive
marijuana legalization bill that includes all the key elements of
racial and social equity that we saw incorporated in the
New York state law and a range of other state laws.
It does include the safe banking provisions, but it includes
things like expunging past marijuana offenses. It includes things like
(07:07):
providing dedicated funding so that people who have been victimized
by the War on Drugs or otherwise discriminated against have
an opportunity to participate in the legal industry. It tries
to give a leg up to the smaller guys trying
to enter the industry, so the whole thing isn't just
overwhelmingly dominated by the big guys. This bill has been
out there in Congress for a few years. Last year,
(07:30):
almost everybody was shocked by the fact that the More
Act passed the House, and by a fairly substantial margin.
I mean, people thought this was gonna take years to happen.
And when people ask why did it past last year?
Part of it was that the Democrats had, you know,
some margin there, but they got some Republican votes a handful.
It's also the fact that this was in the wake
(07:51):
of what happened with George Floyd and the powerful reactions
throughout the country to the racism of the criminal justice system,
so that gave it a lift. Some people point out
the fact that the very powerful congressman from Massachusetts, Congressman
Neil who heads the House Ways and Means Committee, who's
not all that sympathetic a marijuana reform, but that he
didn't want to be a problem on this issue last
(08:13):
year because he was facing a challenge from the left.
Uh So, a whole range of variables. Now this year,
the More Act is being reintroduced. In fact, I think
it's gonna be this week the end of September when
it's gonna House Judiciary Committee is gonna start discussing it.
They're gonna start marking it up, making some revisions from
last year's one, And it's not clear it's gonna pass
(08:35):
this year. I mean, the Democrats lost a whole bunch
of seats in the election last year, so their margin
vera is less, some of the momentum has possibly been lost.
So we're gonna find out later this year whether their
votes are there, whether the Speaker, Nancy Pelosi wants to
put this thing to the full House to vote on.
Assuming it happens, I mean, then the question becomes what
(08:57):
does the Senate do now? On the Senate side, Schumer
and Senator Booker and Senator Widen from Oregon. They said
they don't want to see this banking stuff move forward
without having the broader legalization or at least some of
the broader legalization and the social equity racial equity provisions incorporated.
So a few months ago, those three senators decided to
(09:20):
introduce basically a marijuana legalization bills, not even a bill, actually,
it's just a draft bill and to get comments on it.
And there's an understanding that, you know, Democrats have fifty
votes fifty one if you count the Vice President. I
say that there's probably no more than forty of those
fifty Democratic senators who are clearly in favor. There's a
(09:41):
couple of Republicans, I mean, good old Rand Paul and
a few others who are sympathetic to legalization, but sometimes
they don't like the broader social and racial equity stuff.
So this thing is now out there, this legalization bill.
Nobody expects it to pass any time soon. So the
question on everybody's mind is what's gonna happen a safe
banking How fast is this broader legalization bill going to
(10:03):
pass now? Center Schumer is pivotal he's the majority leader.
He's decided to put his own name on this bill.
He's decided to vote the time and energy in the
midst of everything else. I've known uh Center Schumer a
little bit over the years we've interacted, and I have
to say he was among the worst Democrats, always supporting
(10:23):
mandatory miniums, tough on drugs, part of the drug war rhetoric,
kind of unapologetic about the whole thing. And he's begun
to shift, I mean, actually quite significantly, unsentencing reform. He's
become an advocate of repealing or reforming the mandatory minimums.
But the more remarkable thing is that he stepped forward
on marijuana reform. His shift is reflective of a broader
(10:45):
shift in the national consciousness and in the consciousness of
democratic politicians. So it was a Sunday morning. He was
in Homer's office in Brooklyn. I'm home on the Upper
West Side and us to New Yorkers. Got on the
phone for about fifteen minutes where I could ask them
all sorts of questions. Hi you Senator Schumer. Hello Ethan,
(11:11):
So listen. I know you're busy. Only got a few minutes,
so I'm just gonna jump right in with you. Okay, okay,
one sec. One sec. Guess justin I'm on it. I'm
on a yeah, it will do it in about ten minutes. Okay, okay, Ethan,
we gotta get going because I gotta be gone by
eleven thirty. So Senator Schumer, thank you ever so much
for joining me. So, first of all, I gotta ask you.
(11:32):
I mean, you're in the majority leader, you're dealing with,
got to raise the debt limit, this hospital of government, shutdown,
the bipartisan infrastructure bill, voting rights Trumpet's Republican Party, threatening
constitutional democracy. Why have you chosen to prioritize marijuana reform
this year? Well, first, you know, we can walk in
chew gum at the same time we have There's a
(11:52):
whole lot that has to be done. But I believe
strongly in this for so many reasons. First, the obvious
just view of freedom. You know, when marijuana was first
legalized or decriminalized in some of the early Western states,
everybody said, oh, you know, the sky is gonna fall,
crime will go up, drug use will go up. Neither
(12:13):
of those happened, and the American people realize this, Ethan.
So we have much broader support than we have ever
had from libertarians, from people who are all over the spectrum.
Even South Dakota voted in a referendum to legalize this year.
So that's number one. Number two is just the pain
that this brings. I mean, a young man, young woman,
(12:34):
usually of color, uh is caught with a little bit
of marijuana in their pocket and they act like they've
been selling a whole lot of heroine half the time
because of the over criminalization of the law, and getting
rid of that is very, very important, as well as
expunging records. So there's so much justice here, and this
is gonna take a while. No one thought we'd snap
our fingers and get it all done. When Senator Widen
(12:55):
Booker and I introduced the legislation, we called it sort
of a studied bill. We want to hear people's opinions,
and right now we're building support. It's going to take
a little while. Obviously, we need to get sixty votes, right, Okay, Well,
this ray is an important question. So the Center, i
think is never voted on marijuana before, but the House
has voted a lot of marijuana, and in particular, in
addition to the More Act, which they approved last year,
(13:17):
and they're gonna start considering again this week. Um, there's
the Safe Banking Act, right, that's past the House five
times in the spring. Democrats voted in favor, over half
the Republicans vote in favor. Kinsman Pearl Mutter just had
added it to the National Defense Authorization Act. So why
not let this thing move forward while the long term
process of the legalization bill, uh, you know, needs to
(13:39):
work yourself through. Senators Booker, Widen and I have come
to agreement that if we let this bill out, it
will make it much harder and take longer to pass
comprehensive reform. We certainly want the provisions similar to the
Safe Banking Act in our bill, but to get more
moderate people, to get some Republicans, to get the financial
services industry behind a company inhensive bill is the way
(14:01):
to go. It's the right thing to do, is comprehensive reform.
That's what we believe in. All the pain that's been
suffered by so many people for so long will not
be alleviated because banks can now do some funding of
the growing and processing of marijuana, and so we think
that the quickest way to get it all done is
do it together. If you let just the banking provisions pass,
(14:25):
it will make it much harder to get more Republicans
and more conservatives on the bill. We're trying to create
a coalition for comprehensive reform. So let me play a
bit of Devil's advocate here, because on torn on this
issue myself. But in point of fact, right, you know,
the legalization thing, I mean, the More Act going through
the Congress last year is almost like a magical moment
where everything came together and even the activists were surprised
went through so fast. So the question to hear is,
(14:48):
you know, I hear people say, well, it's gonna be
the fact cats, the big guys who are gonna benefit
the most from safe banking and dollar wise, that's true,
but proportionally it's probably the little guys, including some of
the ones we want to help through all the social
racial equity stuff, who are going to benefit. Isn't there
a maneuver here we're perhaps safe banking gets combined with
some elements of your legalization bill, Ethan, We would look
(15:10):
at that if we could, you know, I mean, we
have said our bills to study bill, and we're looking
for suggestions and changes, and certainly you know, we're not
saying the bill has to be exactly as is, but
to just allow the banking bill through, I think is
that is there a way through this whole National Defense
Authorization Act to add on some of the social equity,
the expungement, those sort of provisions to the state banking thing.
(15:33):
When you guys get the Conference committee, well it's it's
you know, look, everything should be explored and if people
on in the Senate can add some things on, that
would make it more of a paliative. But again, um,
I think I don't want to bargain against myself here.
We need comprehensive reform. That's what we need. We need,
we need legalization, and um we're gonna fight hard that
(15:56):
way with our friends in the banking industry who want
of fun things. We get that, and we're fine with that,
and I agree some of that would flow by the way,
But if you don't have real provisions in the bills, um,
that makes sure that funding wherever it comes from, whether
it's through taxes and government or through banking, gets to
the communities who are hurt the most. You know, the
(16:17):
way water goes downhill and it's going to go to
all of the easy, fat cat, more well to do people,
So you've got to be really careful about that. That's true,
But the fat cats do a better access to capital,
and I have been able to work around this stuff
they do, they do. Look, I'm not arguing against the specifics.
I'm just telling you that it's my view that if
we if we are in range of getting comprehensive reform,
(16:40):
and we're making great progress, and remember, as majority leader,
I can determine what's put on the floor. McConnell said
he'd never put a legalization or decriminalization bill on the floor.
I will when we get the votes and build the coalition,
and the Banking Act will be part of that coalition. Right,
But you've got a lot of Reclinton Democrats. I mean
you look at it's not just Feinstein has always been
ter a go on this stuff. But you got Mansion,
(17:01):
you know, you got you got Tester in Montana, you
got to New Hampshire, all of them. Right, Ethan, this
isn't gonna pass unless we get bipartisan support. And I
would urge your listeners. You know these days Republicans are
more open to this. You heard what I said about
South Dakota before. But you've got the libertarian folks on
board at sixty what is it, sixty eight percent of
Americans are in favor of legalization. Don't think because people
(17:25):
from the certain senators from some states were opposed two
years ago that they might not be able to be
with us now. Well, well, sen so I gotta ask
you this question. I remember years ago you and I talking.
I was always kind of frustrated because I saw you
as a kind of you know, knee jerk promondatory minimum,
a little too sympathetic the drug war. But on marijuana,
even many years ago, you seem kind of softer, more
(17:47):
open minded on this, and I have to ask you,
apart from the broader rational issues, to be against marijuana prohibition.
I mean, you started college in the late sixties early seventies.
What was your experience with marijuana back then? Where you
somebody who smoked a kay usually in your younger years. No,
you know, I never smoked marijuana myself, never ever, ever, ever, Um,
But uh, you know, I I believe that just because
(18:11):
I didn't, I want to. This is people should make
their choices and not have the government, particularly in a
crazy bus system and criminal justice system impose it. Well,
I must say. I mean, you know, I was in
the minority at college who didn't smoke it, although more
people didn't than you think. We were once at dinner
table at senior year and somebody said, you know, I
(18:32):
never I never smoked weed, and a bunch of people
me either. Me either, but a lot did. Don't get
me wrong. Well, now you're living in the one state
where it's legal to walk down the street of the
sidewalk and light up a joint and the cops campust you.
So U the opportunity is still there, and you know
the biggest increase. And I was always sympathetic. You're right.
I was always sympathetic to the legalization decriminal but now
a majority leader. That's why I put in the bill
(18:55):
this and move it. And I'm gonna put a lot
of effort into this. I know we have other things
to do in the next month or so. This is
gonna be a longer campaign than that, but I'm going
to keep working at it until we get it done. Ethan,
We'll be talking more after we hear this ADM. There's
(19:23):
an outed in the daily news today from some guy
who just got a prison at thirty years, and he says, look,
here's an opportunity Schumer can move forward on the broader
sentencing reform. You know that first step back that reduced
mandatory minimums. Now we can make it retroactive. Is that
going to happen sometime soon? Well, I can't tell you that.
I've supported the First Step Act, and I've supported, I've encouraged.
I'm for the Justice and Policing Act, which would deal
(19:45):
with you know, the racism and discrimination that's been in
law enforcement for so long. And I'm also, um, I
am also for lots of different provisions that would take
the first step back there further, Absolutely, do you have
regrets about some of mandatory miniums you supported years ago? Look,
you know the world's change ethan crime was a huge
(20:05):
issue back then. It was tearing the communities apart, it
was dividing people. The world changed, and um, you know
you have to change with it right now. Those laws
are far too restrictive and should be changed. Even then,
I was for an escape valve where people could make
an appeal away from mandatory sentence, but New Gangridge took
(20:27):
that out of the bill. Okay, well, here here's the
question of you. Then everybody's freaking out with understandable reasons
now about fentenel, But some of what the politicians are
doing from the Biden administration, it's almost bipartisan, is reacting
to federal the same way we did to Crack thirty
years ago with a total freak out, enhanced penalties, mandatory miniums,
you know, criminalized first, asked questions later. So the question is,
(20:47):
we know that mandatory miniums don't really work here. We
know that most of the people being caught up in
those things are low level people. Sometimes they don't even
know fentinels in what they're selling. They're all their majority
black and brown. Can we be assured that whatever happens
with fentinyl coming out of the Congress is not going
to include mandatory minnows. Look, we have to learn, we
have to learn from our experience, and we have to
(21:08):
draft these things carefully and not panic. I agree with that.
And when it comes to Republicans, I remember, you know,
good old Rand Paul was one of the first Republicans
out in favor of this thing. I'm kind of disgusted
with his support for Trumpism these days. For a guy
who's a libertarian to support Donald Trump. Is it's despicable.
It's absolutely it's despicable. You know. On the other hand,
(21:28):
I look at a guy like grass Lee, who was
a real drug ward dinosaur years ago, but now it
looks like Key and Durban have almost become a team
and trying to move forward some sensible reform. I mean,
how do you understand Grassley's transition? Is the world is
changing and as mentioned earlier, crime was rampant back in
the nineties and it is no longer. There are also
(21:48):
a lot better ways to deal with criminalization. I'm trying
to put into this Reconciliation bill community alternatives to violence.
It's a very important thing to do. And you know,
we learned, we learned how to do things better and
smarter and more humanely as you go forward, and we
have to learn in many of these ways. Okay, last question,
So you know, the only thing it was heartbreaking to
(22:10):
me in the Democratic primaries. I mean, obviously I support
Joe Biden. I wanted to be a great president, but
he was the worst of all the Democrats in the
in the primaries on these marijuana issue, on broader drug issues,
he seems like almost like fine Stein sort of stuck
in the mud, old drug warrior, not sympathetic to legally
regulating marijuana, slow and sentence before him. Have you talked
to him about these issues anytime this year? Do you
(22:32):
get any read from him? Yeah? I look, he's been
preoccupied with a lot of stuff. But I am going
to lobby him heavily on this issue. And uh, you know,
I've had a few conversations, but not many, but it
will increase. Mm hmm. Okay, Senator, Well listen, I really
appreciate your taking the time. You know, please do whatever
you can to save the world from the threats to
constitutional democracy from Republican Trumps. Um. We're trying, man, We're
(22:55):
fighting the fight. We got many fronts we're fighting on.
But God gave me a lot of energy, so I'm
firing away. And I do appreciate your stepping out in
Your leadership on marijuana reform has been bold. You were
there for some years now. It makes a real difference.
Thank you, Senator. Psychoactive is a production of I Heart
Radio and Protozoa Pictures. It's hosted by me Ethan Naedelman.
(23:19):
It's produced by Kacha Kumkova and Ben Cabrick. The executive
producers are Dylan Golden, Ari Handel, Elizabeth Geesus and Darren
Aronovski for Protozoa Pictures, Alice Williams and Matt Frederick for
I Heart Radio, and me Ethan Naedelman. Our music is
by Ari Belusian and a special thanks to a Vivit Brio,
Sef Bianca Grimshaw and Robert Beatty. If you'd like to
(23:42):
share your own stories, comments or ideas, please leave us
a message at eight three three seven seven nine sixty.
That's one eight three three Psycho zero. You can also
email us as psychoactive at Protozoa dot or find me
on Twitter at Ethan Nadelman. And if you couldn't keep
(24:04):
track of all this, find the information in the show notes.
Next week we'll be talking with Leonard Picard, who allegedly
was the greatest producer of illicit LSD in world history,
spent twenty years in a maximum security prison, and somewhat
(24:27):
miraculously was released just this year. Your reputation as being
the biggest or one of the biggest producers of LSD
in global history, can you say, well, yep, that's true,
or are you in a position where it's really hard
to you know, own that at this point, or whether
maybe it's actually actually not true. Well, the government's um
(24:49):
primary witness stated that the lab I he alleged I
was responsible for producer about a kilogram a month for
twenty years, but or set to me is quite fanciful.
But I do remain under federal supervision, and I must
maintain my position under oath at federal trial that the
(25:12):
allegations are our millerad government conjecture. Subscribe to Cycleactive now
see it, don't miss it.
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