May 5, 2025 • 35 mins
If anyone saw Michelle’s divorce coming, it was her manager, Ben Gaynor. In this episode, he explains how he witnessed the demise of her relationship in real time, and the moment he realized she was better off with Aaron. Plus, he addresses the accusations against Michelle, why he calls her season one demeanor ‘robotic,’ and why he no longer represents her ex as a client.
Meanwhile, Michelle touches on living without affection from her husband for years and the effects the lack of intimacy left behind.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey guys, welcome back to the Pursuit of sassiness. So
today I'm joined by my manager, my friend, and my
unlicensed therapist, Ben Gaynor.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Welcome Ben, Thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Michelle.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
I'm so excited that you're here today.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
I'm excited too. I'm a podcast listener. This is my
first podcast guest experience. So amazing, so excited. Nobody had
rather do it with than you.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
I know, we talk every single day, and I never
knew that we were going to be this close.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
And this is how it works working with a manager.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
I didn't know that at all. I have a lot
of clients in different relationships with all of them, and
you've really turned into not just a great client to
work with, but really one of my good friends.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Yeah. I agree too, So tell us. Do you remember
how we first met?
Speaker 3 (00:52):
Yes, my business manager, John mccoley, awesome guy and mentor
in a lot of ways to me, met Jesse at
the gym and sent me an email and said I
met Sky. Him and his wife have been cast on
a new vander Pump series. Are you interested in having
a meeting? And funny enough, I was literally watching vander
Pump when that message came in I got very into
(01:14):
reality TV in the last three or four years and
pivoted my business to manage more reality TV stars like you. Yeah,
and it was perfect timing, So I was really excited.
I was excited to hear more about the show and
excited to meet both you and Jesse.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Yeah. I remember you walking in and we didn't really talk.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
I think I was at your house for like two,
maybe even three hours. Yeah, we probably spent five minutes
together that day. If if that you were with Isabella,
we might have had a drink together, and that's about it.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
But I had a good meeting with Jesse. We talked
for two hours. Was very interested in working with you guys.
And I came back for a follow up meeting about
a week or so later, and I met Jesse outside.
We walked to the chateau and I didn't even see
you for that meeting. Yeah, And then Jesse called me
a couple days later told me that you guys were
gonna sign with me, and I was very excited, but
(02:10):
I still hadn't really gotten to meet you or gotten
to know you or anything. And that continued for the
first couple months of us working together. I had most
of my dialogue through Jesse. He would keep me updated
and have conversations with you, I assumed behind closed doors.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Yeah, in season one, I remember him always calling you
and you would text me like, if you need anything
or have any questions, please reach out, And I actually
never did.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
In the beginning, I.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Would spend hours on the phone with Jesse. We would
talk for five ten minutes about the show, and then
next thing I knew, we were on talking about golf
for talking about literally anything. So I was getting more
and more I don't want to say confused, but I
was getting more like I don't know Michelle and she's
about to go on this show, and I don't know
(02:58):
who she is, what she's about, her life, her backstory,
her goals and dreams. After season one had wrapped, Jesse
called me one day and told me that you guys
were separating, and I'm not gonna lie like it kind
of made sense just based off my dynamic with you
guys and seeing you guys like it did kind of
make sense. But in the moment, I was even more
(03:23):
confused because I was unsure of if Michelle was going
to still want me to represent her. I had what
I thought was a great relationship with Jesse at the time,
and I just wasn't sure if Michelle was going to
feel comfortable moving forward with me, if she was interested,
if she even liked me. It was really that day
that our friendship and business relationship grew and took form.
(03:45):
From that moment, having an individual dialogue with Michelle, one
that didn't run through her soon to be ex husband,
allowed me to learn about her and learn about things
that I was not going to see on the season,
that I was not going to see from an hour
long meeting, but really starting to get to know Michelle
and what makes Michelle Michelle well.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
I just felt like I didn't really have a voice
for a very long time, and it was really whatever
Jesse wanted.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
It's how it was, and at the time I didn't.
That wasn't my thought process at the time. But in
retrospect that makes a ton of sense. Even after signing
with me, we started to take lawyer meetings ahead of
your TV show, and those ran through Jesse as well,
so all that made sense. I did not think anything
(04:35):
of it in the moment, but as I learned more
and more about you guys, as our relationship grew, it
made more and more sense.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
So were you excited?
Speaker 1 (04:44):
How did you feel knowing that you were now going
to represent two reality stars who were no longer together.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
Well, let's go a little bit backwards, because when I
first met you, guys, I was really excited to be
meeting people at the beginning of their journey. You didn't
have eight years on vander Pump like some of your
cast members did, and this was a new playbook for you.
This was a new way to promote your business, to
promote yourselves, and to be yourself on TV. So I
(05:15):
was really excited to be in early ground floor. The
show hadn't even started production yet, but I saw the
reality TV personality in Jesse. I saw the big personality,
the way he dresses, and it made sense for reality TV.
What made me so interested in you was how unreality
(05:37):
TV you were and how little you knew. You didn't
know anybody's names outside of your friend group. You didn't
know the shows, you didn't know the networks, and I
thought that was going to be very interesting on the Valley.
The Valley has a cast of people that have been
on reality TV before. In seeing how you were going
to fit in to a group of friends that you're
organically friends with, but in a world with these cam
(06:00):
that you have never experienced. I was very interested to
see what that was like for you, and.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
I've mentioned that in the past, like I truly have
never watched any sort of reality.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
Team underplay it like when we talk and stuff like
you underplay how little reality TV you watched prior to
the show. That's I think a really interesting thing. But
you really had no basis, no housewives, no outside of
what Dancing with the Stars.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Yeah, and a little bit of million dollar listing a
decade ago.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
You didn't know any of these people. So that was
really fun for me and different because that's not always
the case when somebody's looking for a manager in reality TV.
Oftentimes they've known the players been on a TV show,
And that wasn't you.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
Yeah, I didn't understand the process. I didn't understand how
you know, how much you film, how much it's cut.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
Like, you didn't understand how ruthless it can be at times.
And it's fun and it's awesome for us viewers to watch,
but for you guys who are actually putting your life
out there, it's ruthless. Sometimes it's very ruthless. I mean
I just don't think you understood that going into it necessarily,
and that was also in some ways what made you
so interesting. But a Bravo show is not an easy
(07:17):
show to step into right away, especially with people that
know the games and know the producers and know how
these things take shape.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Oh yeah, and I was definitely naive about it. I
mean I didn't go into it, you know, having a
script in my head of how I was going to
act and how it is going to be, because I
know other people who are like that, and I just
went into it like completely.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
Ediz Douse, Yes, And from my position, that makes it
very interesting to watch you season one, you know, just
like you. I read the comments as well, and I
know that people said you were a robotic and stuff,
and at the time I didn't really understand that because
I know Michelle and I know how big your personality
(08:00):
is and how funny you are. But then I rewatched
season one and I did get what people were saying.
And as I took a step back and realized, I
realized that you were truly going through so much in
your personal life and your professional life, and some people
(08:21):
internalize things. And I watch you, and I watch you
now as somebody that was internalizing more than I even imagined.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Yeah, I kept everything to myself and I didn't like imagine,
you're just you have whatever job. I'm a real estate agent.
The only thing I knew is to show houses and
to sell houses. And I go from that to all
of a sudden, I have cameras on me, and I
just have to be myself and have all of these storylines.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
Absolutely, And when you watch Million Dollar Listening, and I
know that that was an inspiration to you moving to
Los Angeles in the first place, and how you got
your career start as a real estate agent. But I
could see you operating on a show like Million Dollar
Listing in a way different way when you're talking about houses,
when you're showing houses. I saw you when we were
filming Selling Sunset, like you're in your element. And I
(09:13):
know heading into the show, you thought that there was
going to be a little more of your element, a
little real estate. And it's hard to film your personal life.
You're behind closed doors life, the stuff that nobody really
is ever supposed to see. It's that much harder when
you're contemplating and deciding whether or not you're going to
stay in that marriage, and I don't think you realized
(09:33):
how difficult it was going to be to have cameras
in your house while you didn't even know if you
wanted to stay in that house.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Yeah, it's one of the hardest things I think anyone
can do. I mean, how many people are willing to
do something like that to show the world that you
are unclear if you're going to stay in a marriage
or not.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
Knowing everything you know now and where your marriage headed
and where you're still in that process and everything. Would
you have signed up to do it?
Speaker 1 (09:59):
Still?
Speaker 2 (10:00):
No, I wouldn't.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
Do you regret signing up to do it in the
first place?
Speaker 1 (10:06):
A part of me does yes, because I never got
to tell my story and people didn't understand where I
was coming from, and people don't know me. You know,
Jackson Brittany, they've seen their relationship before they got married,
so they have a very clear understanding or more understand like,
what their dynamic and their relationship was like.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
And the Internet, not to mention, the Internet also has
a better understanding of who Jacks and Brittany are because
they've seen them for six years. So when they're jumping
to conclusions in the comment thread, they at least have
a little bit more information.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Yeah, they have some sort of background. I was with
Jesse ever since twenty fifteen. Nobody has any background of
what my relationship was like during marriage. Nobody got to
see that. So when you don't see something and you
don't know something, and you just see the end of
my marriage, like of course, you just think I'm this robotic,
(11:05):
quiet person because I was very unhappy.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
And on a reality show that films you in the moment,
there's no way to go back in time, and there's
no way to tell the good, the bad, and the
ugly from your first six years together or your first
seven years together. They can only on a reality TV
show enter in in the moment, and the moment in
which they entered was a really difficult moment for anybody,
(11:31):
let alone somebody who had no idea what these cameras
and what these microphones were going to pick up. I agree,
now you know, And that's also like part of this
experience and journey. And although nobody gets to see that
backstory and nobody gets to see those first six years,
everybody gets to see these next years and where you
are currently, And that's partially what's so exciting for me
(11:54):
is season one is such a small glimpse of time.
We're now on season two. We're gonna move on and
keep going, hopefully, and people will get to see where
this story goes. Right now, it's there's no conclusion. We
don't know what's next for you. We don't know what's
next for you in business, in your relationships with Isabella, everything.
(12:14):
But that's what's so fun is we get to not
watch it.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
And I'm excited too about that part about the new adventure,
the new chapter in my life. And I do feel
more comfortable and I'm learning, and I do have a
lot of close friends that are on the show, so
that part I do like.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
So far from the season, do you think what you're
seeing in yourself is more representative of who you are?
Do you feel like you still wish that you found
more of your voice this season.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
I think it's both.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
I definitely am more open and try to be myself,
but for some reason, it's just who I am. Like
sometimes you know, I rewatch it. I'm rewatching it now
and I'm like, I should have opened up more and
I should have said something, and I'm like, in my
mind because I am private, and I don't just like
(13:04):
blurt everything out, and I take things into consideration.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
But you do replay things in your head a lot,
and you replay conversations and wish maybe, oh, if I
could have done that again, I would have done it differently. Absolutely,
But do you feel so far this season who you're
seeing is a good representation of where you are in
your life right now?
Speaker 2 (13:22):
I think so. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
The only thing is I had an apartment and I
didn't realize that I wasn't allowed to film at my apartment,
so you don't really get to see the dynamic of
me as a mother and I have Isabella fifty percent
of the time, and.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
That apartment was just you and Isabella.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Yeah, it was just.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
Her and I for a year, So that entire second
season I was not allowed to film with her. So
that's why you get to see a lot of Jesse
and Isabella filming at his home, but you don't get
to see us unfortunately.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
That makes sense. But now you live with Aaron, right.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Yes, we just moved in together.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
I wanted to live on my own for a year
and so I did, and it was just you know,
Aaron lives nearby as well, and it just made sense,
and we're very you know, we have a very strong relationship,
so and actually Isabella wanted to move in, so it
was just like a group decision, and therefore I moved
in about two months ago.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
That's awesome for me. This really is a representation from
where you are in your life because I see you
in moments and I've seen a few scenes of you
so happy when you're with Aaron. You guys really just
bounce off of each other. And I also see the
(14:39):
negative sides of where you are, where you're still going
through your divorce process. That is not an easy divorce
process at all. And although you can be happy with five, six, seven,
twenty five things that are going on your life, there
are still things that are difficult. There are still things
that are weighing on you. And I think this roller
coaster of Michelle is really just accurate to what I
(14:59):
see in your personal life. That you have good days,
you have bad days, there are things you're so excited about,
and there are things that you're still struggling through.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Yeah, I mean, I love the whole Arin dynamic. I
really wanted to show everybody that I moved on and
that I am very happy and I have a healthy relationship,
and you know I love them, So why not show
my life When.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
I'm with you and Erin? I can feel and see
all of that, like you don't even have to say it,
like you know, it's just it's a parent And that
just kind of brings me back to when I first
met you. Guys, you never told me that you were unhappy.
You never told me what you were contemplating. But seeing
these two different versions of you really does show me
(15:42):
what you were dealing with in your marriage because you
were so different. And now I see what you're like
when you're happy, and it's two different people.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Oh, it's really crazy to think that. It's like you're
one person, but you're completely different. Depending on who you're with,
they can bring you down or they can lift you up.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
And that can also change over time that someone who
at one point brought you up can start to be
the person who brings you down. And as unfortunate as
that is, I think you're not the only one on
your cast that is learning that.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
Yeah, so you clearly know everything that's happening in my
life every day.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Yeah, we talk a lot, talk.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
We text.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
You know, my day to day basis, what is it
like to actually watch it on TV?
Speaker 2 (16:29):
The way it's played.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
Out, It's very difficult to watch sometimes because Michelle is
my friend, and any reality TV show, there's going to
be accusations, there's going to be things said that are
not easy to hear. But I want Michelle to start
to know that you're more than just the show as well,
and people in the comments, like, they will make snap
(16:51):
judgments about you based off things that they hear on
a TV show that are true, that are untrue, And
I just want you to become more comfortable with knowing
that you can be more than just what people see
on a TV show, and what they see doesn't have
to make you feel like they're not seeing the full Michelle.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Yeah, and that's something that I'm navigating as well, because.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
Of course I'm you're getting better.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
I see some of the comments, like, it's very hard
to have strangers comment on my life and not know
the full story.
Speaker 3 (17:22):
You just have to remember, and this is hard to do.
You have to remember that they're strangers and that you
know in your heart who you are, and your friends
and your people and your daughter and your family know
who you are. And unfortunately we can't control what happens
on the TV show and how it's perceived in social
media and stuff. But I know the real Michelle. You
(17:44):
know the real Michelle, and I want you just to
always keep that in mind.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Yeah, and I do feel that way, And I just
surround myself with people who love me and are great inspirations.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
And by seasons three, four or five, you'll stop reading
the comments.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
I don't know if that'll happen. And how do you
like working with reality TV people?
Speaker 3 (18:05):
Reality TV is kind of my favorite type of talent
to represent. I really just feel like because they get
to be themselves and show themselves on TV, you can
really highlight things that make these people so interesting, and
not just talents that they have in being able to
play a character, but really finding what makes somebody interesting
and why we'd want to watch them on TV in
(18:26):
the first place. It can also be really hard to
manage people on reality TV because it is their real life,
and sometimes good TV and their real life they don't
always add up. Sometimes negative things happen in people's personal
lives that lead to good TV, so there is a
constant balancing act that goes on between wanting to help
(18:48):
the client make sure the TV show is continuing to
be a success, while also wanting to protect the client
from being portrayed in a certain way on that TV show.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
That must be a really hard job.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
I can only imagine, like the amount of work you
do for just me, and you have to do that
with multiple clients.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
It can be hard, but it can also be like
so much fun, Like they're with you like this podcast,
getting to work with you on this podcast, getting to
work with you on season one of the Valley, season two,
like those things are really really fun. When you're going
through a divorce and that's on TV, it can also
be a lot because I know how much a divorce
(19:29):
would weigh on you if you weren't on a TV show,
and then reliving things, seeing things, having other people put
their opinions into it. I've never been married, and I've
never been divorced, but I can only imagine how difficult
that is. So when I find myself in a position
like this, it does become it does become a lot
(19:50):
of work in a really fun and interesting way, but
in a way that's not always fun for the client.
So there's a balancing act between the TV show, personal
lives and remembering that both things need to be successful
for the whole thing to work.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
So I have an interesting question, what was it like
for you to work with Jesse and I once we split?
Speaker 3 (20:13):
That might have been the hardest thing I've ever done
at work. That was a very difficult situation. And you know,
I think we've all seen on TV show you guys
don't see eye to eye on a lot of the
things that happened. And being in the middle of two
people that was really difficult. Wanting to protect all of
(20:33):
my clients, but hearing things and seeing things and making
my own opinion along the way, it becomes very convoluted
and confusing. Yeah, I now only represent you, and I'm
really happy to be continuing to represent you. Ever since
I feel like we had that conversation, I started to
get to know you. You've been one of my favorite clients
(20:55):
to work with. A lot of people told me this
when you guys were getting separated in the first place.
A lot of my business friends and colleagues said, really
hard to represent two people getting a divorce. Good luck.
I wouldn't do it.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
If I were you, I would I would say the
same thing.
Speaker 3 (21:10):
Yep. And now after living it. They were all right,
every single one of them was right. Yeah, in a
divorce where two people don't see eye to I, there's
going to be conflict.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Now.
Speaker 3 (21:18):
As your manager and friend, I can't always protect both people.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
And I appreciate that because I thought that, but I
didn't want to force anybody into any decision. So I
just continued to work with you, and I loved how
professional you were. I knew that you know, you weren't
telling me anything about Jesse, so you had the.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
Same Yeah, of course, not like everything. And that's what
starts to become so hard is and as I had
separate relationships with both of you guys, and as my
relationship with you was growing, it became harder and harder
to have conversations on the other side that were not
always positive towards you. So it just became harder for
me to do. As I became better friends with you,
(21:59):
as we had more and more projects that we were
working on together, it just became a really tough situation
that long term was not going to be able to
work out.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Yeah, well, I'm glad we're working together, and I feel
like there's so much that we're eye to eye on.
We want so much more in the future to oh
you doing.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
I have so many, so many, so many, like just
dreams and ideas for you. You're so reserved. When you
scream and get mad, it like catches everybody by surprise.
I want to see you like in a horror movie
or something. I want to see you screaming your head
off or getting your head ripped off or something. I
think that'd be so funny for you, because you're so internal.
(22:40):
I want to see that like external movement that I
never even thought of that. I think it would be
so funny me.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
In a scary movie, you a.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
Horror movie, you in a frantic like SVU scene like.
I just think that would be so such a funny
side of you.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
I actually love that idea.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Let's yeah, definitely add that to the list.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
So, if you could choose.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
One moment from the show to be replayed for the
world to see, which would it be.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
I think I would have to go with multiple scenes,
the scenes of you and Scott your life coach. I
think before people knew that you guys were separated, I
don't think they played as emotionally and as heartbreaking honestly
as they do to me now. I think a lot
of people have talked about in the comments that you
(23:27):
made this decision lightly and that you moved really quickly
and you gave up on your marriage. And I think
that in those scenes with Scott, we got to see
somebody who was deciding, somebody who was torn, somebody who
was hurt. I think you mentioned to him once that
you hadn't been sexually attracted in a very long time,
(23:48):
and just hearing that, I know that happens to couples
of all ages, couples that have been together for three years,
couples that have been together for thirty years, but hearing
that just is heartbreaking because I can't imagine what it
would be like to be in a marriage and to
not be attractive, to not feel those feelings, and that
just must be like insanely difficult to deal with. And
(24:10):
I think that the Scott scenes show a raw and
emotional version of you that we rarely saw in season one.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Well, that was one of the hardest scenes I had
to do for myself. I was literally I remember like
holding my breath and trying not to like shake and
not cry.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
Well, it's a really tough conversation to have, very hard
and then you add cameras and people that you don't
know who are watching it happen, and it's a very
real conversation that you needed to have, but doing it
on camera is scary and difficult.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
It was very scary, It was very hard, and so
I was holding my tears and that was a big
moment for me to express out loud, because it's like, yes, obviously.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
I'm married him.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
I think he was a handsome person, but it's not
about physical looks, because a lot of people actually tell
me that, like, oh he's so handsome or he looks
better or whatever, and that's not the case. It's about
love and it's about respect and how somebody treats you.
And when somebody is constantly diminishing you, belittling you, just
(25:23):
not caring about you, and then just like completely stops
with giving compliments any sort of affection, then that takes
a toll on you as a wife.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
Like absolutely, And you know, it's back to this conversation
we've had about showing the world your real life. Nobody
really has to explain to the outside world why they're
attracted to somebody, why they're not attracted to somebody, and
putting that on TV and conveying that and then having
(25:54):
people weigh in on why aren't you feeling a certain way?
Must be really difficult because you, as a strong, independent woman,
can decide who you're attracted to and for what reasons
and what attracts you.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
Yeah, and there's only so much that a man or
a woman can take when somebody constantly just doesn't want
to show you any emotion day after day, when that
is the only person you're supposed to be physical with,
it takes a toll on yourself and your mental well
being because it's like the person that I married and
that I love doesn't want to give me a hug
(26:30):
or a kiss, or give me a compliment or you know,
sleep with me.
Speaker 3 (26:34):
Be sure, it made you play things in your head
what you aren't doing correctly, and I don't know, correct
me if I'm wrong, But that could make a woman
question their body, question their looks, and that's just a
really unfair position for you to be in.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
Absolutely, And that's why I think me and Brittany can
relate in a lot of ways because we were married
to men that treated us a certain way, and we
we were by their side for a long long time.
Even after being treated that way.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
But for you, a lot of this stuff is happening
behind closed doors, and I know that makes it very
difficult for you. I don't know if you'd want it
the other way. I don't know if you would want
everything so public and some of these things, I think,
Oh no, I don't.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
And I feel bad that Brittany has to go through
something like that. It's already hard as it is, and
I can't imagine like what she's going through is even
though I can relate, Like I know, it's that much harder.
Speaker 3 (27:41):
It's hard to find a silver lining in a divorce
and stuff. But is there a little silver lining of
having somebody who's been so supportive to you and somebody
who you've been so supportive to Is it a little
comforting knowing that you're not the only one going through
something like this. You don't have to feel like you're alone,
(28:02):
and that a good friend of yours also does somewhat understand.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
Yeah, And that's what I love about Brittany. It's like,
sometimes I don't have to explain a situation. She already
knows and she gets it. All I have to say
is a sentence, and she's like ugh, and so of course,
like there is another layer of bond between us because
we are going through something very difficult.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
I'm not trying to compare whatsoever.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
I know people think that I was trying to compare.
What I was trying to say is that Jesse is.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Very out there and he does.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Pretend to be a certain way, So it's hard for
people to really truly know who he is and what
happened between closed doors.
Speaker 3 (28:47):
A lot of the things that you say, there's no
way of showing that, there's no way of proving that, sure,
you said it happened. I can believe you. That doesn't
mean that the whole outside world is going to say
that's how it happened. So we're all always going to
be dealing with that, and I just think that it's
letting go of You don't need everybody to agree with you.
I just always want you to carry that with you
(29:08):
and know that you don't have to convince everybody you
know the truth in your heart.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
I do know the truth.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
Yeah, we all do.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
That was a glimpse of what my marriage was like.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
Like it's normal for two parents to have different opinions.
What I didn't feel was as normal was how the
dynamic and conversation went once you guys had different opinions.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
Yeah, we were never on the same page.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
He was just very aggressive and Barry didn't have the patience.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
It just seemed it seemed to me like when you
guys would have a disagreement, someone was just going to
end up making a concession, probably you. But it never
seemed like there was a dialogue or discussion about why
you wanted to do something differently or why he wanted
to do something differently. And I think that that goes
(29:57):
a long way in showing where you guys were in
your marriage. If you're not going to be able to
have a conversation about how to teach Isabella how to
ride a bike, you're not gonna be able to have
conversations about all the other things you need to to
continue to be married together.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
What do you think my biggest growth moment has been
since starting The Valley, You've.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
Had a million because you were so green. It was
like everything was a milestone for you at the beginning,
first episode and first time joining a podcast of somebody else's.
I really do think it's this podcast for you because
it's so unlike anything that you would have thought you
were ever gonna do. You are a shy and reserved person,
(30:44):
and being on reality TV is already different enough for
you to come and sit down in front of a
microphone and really bear your life and bear what's going
on in your new relationship, what happened in your old relationship.
I think that was a huge step for you. I'm
proud of you for taking that step. And we're so
early on in this podcast, and I just think that
(31:04):
you're going to continue to grow and grow and.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Grow every day.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
I'm doing something uncomfortable, and I say that because it's true,
Like this is what my fifth podcast, and it's still
not natural for me, and it's a lot of you're starting.
Speaker 3 (31:19):
So much more natural. I mean seriously, I listen to
them and I was here when you recorded your first episode,
and hearing the most recent one, it's it's just been
four or five episodes, but you're already so different, Like
I can't imagine what you're going to be like in
a year.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
Yeah, I'm excited.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
I'm just really hard on me, on myself as a person,
I think, and I'm learning that.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
That's something that I've learned about you. You're a perfectionist,
Like you really put a ton of pressure on yourself
in terms of real estate, the reality TV stuff you
want to do outside of it in the entertainment world,
and I love that, Like you are a true go
getter and hearing and learning. I didn't know that you
reached out to Ryan directly to get your job there,
(32:03):
Like that totally made sense because that's the type of
person you are. I know, you're in the DMS talking
to people whose podcasts you'd love to be on, brands
that you'd love to work at, and I think that's
so refreshing to work with somebody that is out there
trying to hustle for themselves and not just wait for
somebody to hand them something.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
Yeah, it's just something I've always done in part of
who I am. If I'm going to do something, I'm
going to do it all out. And I always have
bigger and bigger dreams that I want to accomplish. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
No, to me, this is just the beginning.
Speaker 3 (32:36):
Yeah, I know it's sometimes like sometimes I have to
tell you, right, let's slow it down a little bit.
We're not there yet. But I love it, Like you're
not going to get anywhere in anything without swinging for
the fences sometimes and the fact that you're willing to
take that leap of faith sometimes. I know a million
people who would have considered this reality show and ultimately
(32:59):
decided not to do it, or considered having a podcast
and ultimately deciding not to do it. I actually thought
that you might have been one of those people that
ultimately decided not to do the podcast. But I'm so
glad you did, and I'm so glad that you were
sharing more and more each week. And I think people
are gonna be surprised. There's gonna be a lot of
(33:20):
stuff they learn in the next few weeks that I
don't think everybody's expecting. I'm excited for people to continue
on this journey, just like I'm gonna be.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
I mean, I can't wait for everybody to continue watching.
And so I just asked you about what you saw
on my biggest growth was, But what about my biggest
weakness or frustration.
Speaker 3 (33:42):
I don't want to call this a weakness, because I
think it's very natural for anybody, But I do think
that something that I would love to work through is
not being so concerned about what blogs and fan pages
and Bravo meme pages, not being so sensitive or not
(34:04):
worrying as much about what they say. At the end
of the day. Any TV show, any reality TV show,
you want people talking about it. Sometimes they say good things,
sometimes they say bad things. But I do want you
to just remember that it's a TV show and you
don't always have to win. No, you don't always have
to I get it.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
I just get frustrated. I'm like, that's not the truth,
that's not how it went.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
And eventually we're gonna let go and we're just gonna
know that that's okay.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
Yeah, well, thank you again for.
Speaker 3 (34:35):
Coming on, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
I have so much to do because I have to
get ready for the reunion tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (34:42):
Yeah, we need to go talk about that. We need
to go. We need to go. Let's go have lunch.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
Yeah I know.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
But I'm going to be as vulnerable and as honest
and open as possible, and I just hope that everybody
appreciates that.
Speaker 3 (34:58):
I think they will. That's all you can do. Be yourself,
tell the truth, and the rest will fall into place.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
Okay, let's go have lunch.
Hey guys, welcome back to the Pursuit of sassiness. So
today I'm joined by my manager, my friend, and my
unlicensed therapist, Ben Gaynor.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Welcome Ben, Thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Michelle.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
I'm so excited that you're here today.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
I'm excited too. I'm a podcast listener. This is my
first podcast guest experience. So amazing, so excited. Nobody had
rather do it with than you.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
I know, we talk every single day, and I never
knew that we were going to be this close.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
And this is how it works working with a manager.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
I didn't know that at all. I have a lot
of clients in different relationships with all of them, and
you've really turned into not just a great client to
work with, but really one of my good friends.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Yeah. I agree too, So tell us. Do you remember
how we first met?
Speaker 3 (00:52):
Yes, my business manager, John mccoley, awesome guy and mentor
in a lot of ways to me, met Jesse at
the gym and sent me an email and said I
met Sky. Him and his wife have been cast on
a new vander Pump series. Are you interested in having
a meeting? And funny enough, I was literally watching vander
Pump when that message came in I got very into
(01:14):
reality TV in the last three or four years and
pivoted my business to manage more reality TV stars like you. Yeah,
and it was perfect timing, So I was really excited.
I was excited to hear more about the show and
excited to meet both you and Jesse.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Yeah. I remember you walking in and we didn't really talk.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
I think I was at your house for like two,
maybe even three hours. Yeah, we probably spent five minutes
together that day. If if that you were with Isabella,
we might have had a drink together, and that's about it.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
But I had a good meeting with Jesse. We talked
for two hours. Was very interested in working with you guys.
And I came back for a follow up meeting about
a week or so later, and I met Jesse outside.
We walked to the chateau and I didn't even see
you for that meeting. Yeah, And then Jesse called me
a couple days later told me that you guys were
gonna sign with me, and I was very excited, but
(02:10):
I still hadn't really gotten to meet you or gotten
to know you or anything. And that continued for the
first couple months of us working together. I had most
of my dialogue through Jesse. He would keep me updated
and have conversations with you, I assumed behind closed doors.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Yeah, in season one, I remember him always calling you
and you would text me like, if you need anything
or have any questions, please reach out, And I actually
never did.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
In the beginning, I.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Would spend hours on the phone with Jesse. We would
talk for five ten minutes about the show, and then
next thing I knew, we were on talking about golf
for talking about literally anything. So I was getting more
and more I don't want to say confused, but I
was getting more like I don't know Michelle and she's
about to go on this show, and I don't know
(02:58):
who she is, what she's about, her life, her backstory,
her goals and dreams. After season one had wrapped, Jesse
called me one day and told me that you guys
were separating, and I'm not gonna lie like it kind
of made sense just based off my dynamic with you
guys and seeing you guys like it did kind of
make sense. But in the moment, I was even more
(03:23):
confused because I was unsure of if Michelle was going
to still want me to represent her. I had what
I thought was a great relationship with Jesse at the time,
and I just wasn't sure if Michelle was going to
feel comfortable moving forward with me, if she was interested,
if she even liked me. It was really that day
that our friendship and business relationship grew and took form.
(03:45):
From that moment, having an individual dialogue with Michelle, one
that didn't run through her soon to be ex husband,
allowed me to learn about her and learn about things
that I was not going to see on the season,
that I was not going to see from an hour
long meeting, but really starting to get to know Michelle
and what makes Michelle Michelle well.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
I just felt like I didn't really have a voice
for a very long time, and it was really whatever
Jesse wanted.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
It's how it was, and at the time I didn't.
That wasn't my thought process at the time. But in
retrospect that makes a ton of sense. Even after signing
with me, we started to take lawyer meetings ahead of
your TV show, and those ran through Jesse as well,
so all that made sense. I did not think anything
(04:35):
of it in the moment, but as I learned more
and more about you guys, as our relationship grew, it
made more and more sense.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
So were you excited?
Speaker 1 (04:44):
How did you feel knowing that you were now going
to represent two reality stars who were no longer together.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
Well, let's go a little bit backwards, because when I
first met you, guys, I was really excited to be
meeting people at the beginning of their journey. You didn't
have eight years on vander Pump like some of your
cast members did, and this was a new playbook for you.
This was a new way to promote your business, to
promote yourselves, and to be yourself on TV. So I
(05:15):
was really excited to be in early ground floor. The
show hadn't even started production yet, but I saw the
reality TV personality in Jesse. I saw the big personality,
the way he dresses, and it made sense for reality TV.
What made me so interested in you was how unreality
(05:37):
TV you were and how little you knew. You didn't
know anybody's names outside of your friend group. You didn't
know the shows, you didn't know the networks, and I
thought that was going to be very interesting on the Valley.
The Valley has a cast of people that have been
on reality TV before. In seeing how you were going
to fit in to a group of friends that you're
organically friends with, but in a world with these cam
(06:00):
that you have never experienced. I was very interested to
see what that was like for you, and.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
I've mentioned that in the past, like I truly have
never watched any sort of reality.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
Team underplay it like when we talk and stuff like
you underplay how little reality TV you watched prior to
the show. That's I think a really interesting thing. But
you really had no basis, no housewives, no outside of
what Dancing with the Stars.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Yeah, and a little bit of million dollar listing a
decade ago.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
You didn't know any of these people. So that was
really fun for me and different because that's not always
the case when somebody's looking for a manager in reality TV.
Oftentimes they've known the players been on a TV show,
And that wasn't you.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
Yeah, I didn't understand the process. I didn't understand how
you know, how much you film, how much it's cut.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
Like, you didn't understand how ruthless it can be at times.
And it's fun and it's awesome for us viewers to watch,
but for you guys who are actually putting your life
out there, it's ruthless. Sometimes it's very ruthless. I mean
I just don't think you understood that going into it necessarily,
and that was also in some ways what made you
so interesting. But a Bravo show is not an easy
(07:17):
show to step into right away, especially with people that
know the games and know the producers and know how
these things take shape.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Oh yeah, and I was definitely naive about it. I
mean I didn't go into it, you know, having a
script in my head of how I was going to
act and how it is going to be, because I
know other people who are like that, and I just
went into it like completely.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
Ediz Douse, Yes, And from my position, that makes it
very interesting to watch you season one, you know, just
like you. I read the comments as well, and I
know that people said you were a robotic and stuff,
and at the time I didn't really understand that because
I know Michelle and I know how big your personality
(08:00):
is and how funny you are. But then I rewatched
season one and I did get what people were saying.
And as I took a step back and realized, I
realized that you were truly going through so much in
your personal life and your professional life, and some people
(08:21):
internalize things. And I watch you, and I watch you
now as somebody that was internalizing more than I even imagined.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Yeah, I kept everything to myself and I didn't like imagine,
you're just you have whatever job. I'm a real estate agent.
The only thing I knew is to show houses and
to sell houses. And I go from that to all
of a sudden, I have cameras on me, and I
just have to be myself and have all of these storylines.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
Absolutely, And when you watch Million Dollar Listening, and I
know that that was an inspiration to you moving to
Los Angeles in the first place, and how you got
your career start as a real estate agent. But I
could see you operating on a show like Million Dollar
Listing in a way different way when you're talking about houses,
when you're showing houses. I saw you when we were
filming Selling Sunset, like you're in your element. And I
(09:13):
know heading into the show, you thought that there was
going to be a little more of your element, a
little real estate. And it's hard to film your personal life.
You're behind closed doors life, the stuff that nobody really
is ever supposed to see. It's that much harder when
you're contemplating and deciding whether or not you're going to
stay in that marriage, and I don't think you realized
(09:33):
how difficult it was going to be to have cameras
in your house while you didn't even know if you
wanted to stay in that house.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Yeah, it's one of the hardest things I think anyone
can do. I mean, how many people are willing to
do something like that to show the world that you
are unclear if you're going to stay in a marriage
or not.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
Knowing everything you know now and where your marriage headed
and where you're still in that process and everything. Would
you have signed up to do it?
Speaker 1 (09:59):
Still?
Speaker 2 (10:00):
No, I wouldn't.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
Do you regret signing up to do it in the
first place?
Speaker 1 (10:06):
A part of me does yes, because I never got
to tell my story and people didn't understand where I
was coming from, and people don't know me. You know,
Jackson Brittany, they've seen their relationship before they got married,
so they have a very clear understanding or more understand like,
what their dynamic and their relationship was like.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
And the Internet, not to mention, the Internet also has
a better understanding of who Jacks and Brittany are because
they've seen them for six years. So when they're jumping
to conclusions in the comment thread, they at least have
a little bit more information.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Yeah, they have some sort of background. I was with
Jesse ever since twenty fifteen. Nobody has any background of
what my relationship was like during marriage. Nobody got to
see that. So when you don't see something and you
don't know something, and you just see the end of
my marriage, like of course, you just think I'm this robotic,
(11:05):
quiet person because I was very unhappy.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
And on a reality show that films you in the moment,
there's no way to go back in time, and there's
no way to tell the good, the bad, and the
ugly from your first six years together or your first
seven years together. They can only on a reality TV
show enter in in the moment, and the moment in
which they entered was a really difficult moment for anybody,
(11:31):
let alone somebody who had no idea what these cameras
and what these microphones were going to pick up. I agree,
now you know, And that's also like part of this
experience and journey. And although nobody gets to see that
backstory and nobody gets to see those first six years,
everybody gets to see these next years and where you
are currently, And that's partially what's so exciting for me
(11:54):
is season one is such a small glimpse of time.
We're now on season two. We're gonna move on and
keep going, hopefully, and people will get to see where
this story goes. Right now, it's there's no conclusion. We
don't know what's next for you. We don't know what's
next for you in business, in your relationships with Isabella, everything.
(12:14):
But that's what's so fun is we get to not
watch it.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
And I'm excited too about that part about the new adventure,
the new chapter in my life. And I do feel
more comfortable and I'm learning, and I do have a
lot of close friends that are on the show, so
that part I do like.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
So far from the season, do you think what you're
seeing in yourself is more representative of who you are?
Do you feel like you still wish that you found
more of your voice this season.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
I think it's both.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
I definitely am more open and try to be myself,
but for some reason, it's just who I am. Like
sometimes you know, I rewatch it. I'm rewatching it now
and I'm like, I should have opened up more and
I should have said something, and I'm like, in my
mind because I am private, and I don't just like
(13:04):
blurt everything out, and I take things into consideration.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
But you do replay things in your head a lot,
and you replay conversations and wish maybe, oh, if I
could have done that again, I would have done it differently. Absolutely,
But do you feel so far this season who you're
seeing is a good representation of where you are in
your life right now?
Speaker 2 (13:22):
I think so. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
The only thing is I had an apartment and I
didn't realize that I wasn't allowed to film at my apartment,
so you don't really get to see the dynamic of
me as a mother and I have Isabella fifty percent
of the time, and.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
That apartment was just you and Isabella.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Yeah, it was just.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
Her and I for a year, So that entire second
season I was not allowed to film with her. So
that's why you get to see a lot of Jesse
and Isabella filming at his home, but you don't get
to see us unfortunately.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
That makes sense. But now you live with Aaron, right.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Yes, we just moved in together.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
I wanted to live on my own for a year
and so I did, and it was just you know,
Aaron lives nearby as well, and it just made sense,
and we're very you know, we have a very strong relationship,
so and actually Isabella wanted to move in, so it
was just like a group decision, and therefore I moved
in about two months ago.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
That's awesome for me. This really is a representation from
where you are in your life because I see you
in moments and I've seen a few scenes of you
so happy when you're with Aaron. You guys really just
bounce off of each other. And I also see the
(14:39):
negative sides of where you are, where you're still going
through your divorce process. That is not an easy divorce
process at all. And although you can be happy with five, six, seven,
twenty five things that are going on your life, there
are still things that are difficult. There are still things
that are weighing on you. And I think this roller
coaster of Michelle is really just accurate to what I
(14:59):
see in your personal life. That you have good days,
you have bad days, there are things you're so excited about,
and there are things that you're still struggling through.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Yeah, I mean, I love the whole Arin dynamic. I
really wanted to show everybody that I moved on and
that I am very happy and I have a healthy relationship,
and you know I love them, So why not show
my life When.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
I'm with you and Erin? I can feel and see
all of that, like you don't even have to say it,
like you know, it's just it's a parent And that
just kind of brings me back to when I first
met you. Guys, you never told me that you were unhappy.
You never told me what you were contemplating. But seeing
these two different versions of you really does show me
(15:42):
what you were dealing with in your marriage because you
were so different. And now I see what you're like
when you're happy, and it's two different people.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Oh, it's really crazy to think that. It's like you're
one person, but you're completely different. Depending on who you're with,
they can bring you down or they can lift you up.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
And that can also change over time that someone who
at one point brought you up can start to be
the person who brings you down. And as unfortunate as
that is, I think you're not the only one on
your cast that is learning that.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
Yeah, so you clearly know everything that's happening in my
life every day.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Yeah, we talk a lot, talk.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
We text.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
You know, my day to day basis, what is it
like to actually watch it on TV?
Speaker 2 (16:29):
The way it's played.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
Out, It's very difficult to watch sometimes because Michelle is
my friend, and any reality TV show, there's going to
be accusations, there's going to be things said that are
not easy to hear. But I want Michelle to start
to know that you're more than just the show as well,
and people in the comments, like, they will make snap
(16:51):
judgments about you based off things that they hear on
a TV show that are true, that are untrue, And
I just want you to become more comfortable with knowing
that you can be more than just what people see
on a TV show, and what they see doesn't have
to make you feel like they're not seeing the full Michelle.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Yeah, and that's something that I'm navigating as well, because.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
Of course I'm you're getting better.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
I see some of the comments, like, it's very hard
to have strangers comment on my life and not know
the full story.
Speaker 3 (17:22):
You just have to remember, and this is hard to do.
You have to remember that they're strangers and that you
know in your heart who you are, and your friends
and your people and your daughter and your family know
who you are. And unfortunately we can't control what happens
on the TV show and how it's perceived in social
media and stuff. But I know the real Michelle. You
(17:44):
know the real Michelle, and I want you just to
always keep that in mind.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Yeah, and I do feel that way, And I just
surround myself with people who love me and are great inspirations.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
And by seasons three, four or five, you'll stop reading
the comments.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
I don't know if that'll happen. And how do you
like working with reality TV people?
Speaker 3 (18:05):
Reality TV is kind of my favorite type of talent
to represent. I really just feel like because they get
to be themselves and show themselves on TV, you can
really highlight things that make these people so interesting, and
not just talents that they have in being able to
play a character, but really finding what makes somebody interesting
and why we'd want to watch them on TV in
(18:26):
the first place. It can also be really hard to
manage people on reality TV because it is their real life,
and sometimes good TV and their real life they don't
always add up. Sometimes negative things happen in people's personal
lives that lead to good TV, so there is a
constant balancing act that goes on between wanting to help
(18:48):
the client make sure the TV show is continuing to
be a success, while also wanting to protect the client
from being portrayed in a certain way on that TV show.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
That must be a really hard job.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
I can only imagine, like the amount of work you
do for just me, and you have to do that
with multiple clients.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
It can be hard, but it can also be like
so much fun, Like they're with you like this podcast,
getting to work with you on this podcast, getting to
work with you on season one of the Valley, season two,
like those things are really really fun. When you're going
through a divorce and that's on TV, it can also
be a lot because I know how much a divorce
(19:29):
would weigh on you if you weren't on a TV show,
and then reliving things, seeing things, having other people put
their opinions into it. I've never been married, and I've
never been divorced, but I can only imagine how difficult
that is. So when I find myself in a position
like this, it does become it does become a lot
(19:50):
of work in a really fun and interesting way, but
in a way that's not always fun for the client.
So there's a balancing act between the TV show, personal
lives and remembering that both things need to be successful
for the whole thing to work.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
So I have an interesting question, what was it like
for you to work with Jesse and I once we split?
Speaker 3 (20:13):
That might have been the hardest thing I've ever done
at work. That was a very difficult situation. And you know,
I think we've all seen on TV show you guys
don't see eye to eye on a lot of the
things that happened. And being in the middle of two
people that was really difficult. Wanting to protect all of
(20:33):
my clients, but hearing things and seeing things and making
my own opinion along the way, it becomes very convoluted
and confusing. Yeah, I now only represent you, and I'm
really happy to be continuing to represent you. Ever since
I feel like we had that conversation, I started to
get to know you. You've been one of my favorite clients
(20:55):
to work with. A lot of people told me this
when you guys were getting separated in the first place.
A lot of my business friends and colleagues said, really
hard to represent two people getting a divorce. Good luck.
I wouldn't do it.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
If I were you, I would I would say the
same thing.
Speaker 3 (21:10):
Yep. And now after living it. They were all right,
every single one of them was right. Yeah, in a
divorce where two people don't see eye to I, there's
going to be conflict.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Now.
Speaker 3 (21:18):
As your manager and friend, I can't always protect both people.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
And I appreciate that because I thought that, but I
didn't want to force anybody into any decision. So I
just continued to work with you, and I loved how
professional you were. I knew that you know, you weren't
telling me anything about Jesse, so you had the.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
Same Yeah, of course, not like everything. And that's what
starts to become so hard is and as I had
separate relationships with both of you guys, and as my
relationship with you was growing, it became harder and harder
to have conversations on the other side that were not
always positive towards you. So it just became harder for
me to do. As I became better friends with you,
(21:59):
as we had more and more projects that we were
working on together, it just became a really tough situation
that long term was not going to be able to
work out.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Yeah, well, I'm glad we're working together, and I feel
like there's so much that we're eye to eye on.
We want so much more in the future to oh
you doing.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
I have so many, so many, so many, like just
dreams and ideas for you. You're so reserved. When you
scream and get mad, it like catches everybody by surprise.
I want to see you like in a horror movie
or something. I want to see you screaming your head
off or getting your head ripped off or something. I
think that'd be so funny for you, because you're so internal.
(22:40):
I want to see that like external movement that I
never even thought of that. I think it would be
so funny me.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
In a scary movie, you a.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
Horror movie, you in a frantic like SVU scene like.
I just think that would be so such a funny
side of you.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
I actually love that idea.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Let's yeah, definitely add that to the list.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
So, if you could choose.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
One moment from the show to be replayed for the
world to see, which would it be.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
I think I would have to go with multiple scenes,
the scenes of you and Scott your life coach. I
think before people knew that you guys were separated, I
don't think they played as emotionally and as heartbreaking honestly
as they do to me now. I think a lot
of people have talked about in the comments that you
(23:27):
made this decision lightly and that you moved really quickly
and you gave up on your marriage. And I think
that in those scenes with Scott, we got to see
somebody who was deciding, somebody who was torn, somebody who
was hurt. I think you mentioned to him once that
you hadn't been sexually attracted in a very long time,
(23:48):
and just hearing that, I know that happens to couples
of all ages, couples that have been together for three years,
couples that have been together for thirty years, but hearing
that just is heartbreaking because I can't imagine what it
would be like to be in a marriage and to
not be attractive, to not feel those feelings, and that
just must be like insanely difficult to deal with. And
(24:10):
I think that the Scott scenes show a raw and
emotional version of you that we rarely saw in season one.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Well, that was one of the hardest scenes I had
to do for myself. I was literally I remember like
holding my breath and trying not to like shake and
not cry.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
Well, it's a really tough conversation to have, very hard
and then you add cameras and people that you don't
know who are watching it happen, and it's a very
real conversation that you needed to have, but doing it
on camera is scary and difficult.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
It was very scary, It was very hard, and so
I was holding my tears and that was a big
moment for me to express out loud, because it's like, yes, obviously.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
I'm married him.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
I think he was a handsome person, but it's not
about physical looks, because a lot of people actually tell
me that, like, oh he's so handsome or he looks
better or whatever, and that's not the case. It's about
love and it's about respect and how somebody treats you.
And when somebody is constantly diminishing you, belittling you, just
(25:23):
not caring about you, and then just like completely stops
with giving compliments any sort of affection, then that takes
a toll on you as a wife.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
Like absolutely, And you know, it's back to this conversation
we've had about showing the world your real life. Nobody
really has to explain to the outside world why they're
attracted to somebody, why they're not attracted to somebody, and
putting that on TV and conveying that and then having
(25:54):
people weigh in on why aren't you feeling a certain way?
Must be really difficult because you, as a strong, independent woman,
can decide who you're attracted to and for what reasons
and what attracts you.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
Yeah, and there's only so much that a man or
a woman can take when somebody constantly just doesn't want
to show you any emotion day after day, when that
is the only person you're supposed to be physical with,
it takes a toll on yourself and your mental well
being because it's like the person that I married and
that I love doesn't want to give me a hug
(26:30):
or a kiss, or give me a compliment or you know,
sleep with me.
Speaker 3 (26:34):
Be sure, it made you play things in your head
what you aren't doing correctly, and I don't know, correct
me if I'm wrong, But that could make a woman
question their body, question their looks, and that's just a
really unfair position for you to be in.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
Absolutely, And that's why I think me and Brittany can
relate in a lot of ways because we were married
to men that treated us a certain way, and we
we were by their side for a long long time.
Even after being treated that way.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
But for you, a lot of this stuff is happening
behind closed doors, and I know that makes it very
difficult for you. I don't know if you'd want it
the other way. I don't know if you would want
everything so public and some of these things, I think,
Oh no, I don't.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
And I feel bad that Brittany has to go through
something like that. It's already hard as it is, and
I can't imagine like what she's going through is even
though I can relate, Like I know, it's that much harder.
Speaker 3 (27:41):
It's hard to find a silver lining in a divorce
and stuff. But is there a little silver lining of
having somebody who's been so supportive to you and somebody
who you've been so supportive to Is it a little
comforting knowing that you're not the only one going through
something like this. You don't have to feel like you're alone,
(28:02):
and that a good friend of yours also does somewhat understand.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
Yeah, And that's what I love about Brittany. It's like,
sometimes I don't have to explain a situation. She already
knows and she gets it. All I have to say
is a sentence, and she's like ugh, and so of course,
like there is another layer of bond between us because
we are going through something very difficult.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
I'm not trying to compare whatsoever.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
I know people think that I was trying to compare.
What I was trying to say is that Jesse is.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Very out there and he does.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Pretend to be a certain way, So it's hard for
people to really truly know who he is and what
happened between closed doors.
Speaker 3 (28:47):
A lot of the things that you say, there's no
way of showing that, there's no way of proving that, sure,
you said it happened. I can believe you. That doesn't
mean that the whole outside world is going to say
that's how it happened. So we're all always going to
be dealing with that, and I just think that it's
letting go of You don't need everybody to agree with you.
I just always want you to carry that with you
(29:08):
and know that you don't have to convince everybody you
know the truth in your heart.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
I do know the truth.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
Yeah, we all do.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
That was a glimpse of what my marriage was like.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
Like it's normal for two parents to have different opinions.
What I didn't feel was as normal was how the
dynamic and conversation went once you guys had different opinions.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
Yeah, we were never on the same page.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
He was just very aggressive and Barry didn't have the patience.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
It just seemed it seemed to me like when you
guys would have a disagreement, someone was just going to
end up making a concession, probably you. But it never
seemed like there was a dialogue or discussion about why
you wanted to do something differently or why he wanted
to do something differently. And I think that that goes
(29:57):
a long way in showing where you guys were in
your marriage. If you're not going to be able to
have a conversation about how to teach Isabella how to
ride a bike, you're not gonna be able to have
conversations about all the other things you need to to
continue to be married together.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
What do you think my biggest growth moment has been
since starting The Valley, You've.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
Had a million because you were so green. It was
like everything was a milestone for you at the beginning,
first episode and first time joining a podcast of somebody else's.
I really do think it's this podcast for you because
it's so unlike anything that you would have thought you
were ever gonna do. You are a shy and reserved person,
(30:44):
and being on reality TV is already different enough for
you to come and sit down in front of a
microphone and really bear your life and bear what's going
on in your new relationship, what happened in your old relationship.
I think that was a huge step for you. I'm
proud of you for taking that step. And we're so
early on in this podcast, and I just think that
(31:04):
you're going to continue to grow and grow and.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Grow every day.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
I'm doing something uncomfortable, and I say that because it's true,
Like this is what my fifth podcast, and it's still
not natural for me, and it's a lot of you're starting.
Speaker 3 (31:19):
So much more natural. I mean seriously, I listen to
them and I was here when you recorded your first episode,
and hearing the most recent one, it's it's just been
four or five episodes, but you're already so different, Like
I can't imagine what you're going to be like in
a year.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
Yeah, I'm excited.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
I'm just really hard on me, on myself as a person,
I think, and I'm learning that.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
That's something that I've learned about you. You're a perfectionist,
Like you really put a ton of pressure on yourself
in terms of real estate, the reality TV stuff you
want to do outside of it in the entertainment world,
and I love that, Like you are a true go
getter and hearing and learning. I didn't know that you
reached out to Ryan directly to get your job there,
(32:03):
Like that totally made sense because that's the type of
person you are. I know, you're in the DMS talking
to people whose podcasts you'd love to be on, brands
that you'd love to work at, and I think that's
so refreshing to work with somebody that is out there
trying to hustle for themselves and not just wait for
somebody to hand them something.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
Yeah, it's just something I've always done in part of
who I am. If I'm going to do something, I'm
going to do it all out. And I always have
bigger and bigger dreams that I want to accomplish. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
No, to me, this is just the beginning.
Speaker 3 (32:36):
Yeah, I know it's sometimes like sometimes I have to
tell you, right, let's slow it down a little bit.
We're not there yet. But I love it, Like you're
not going to get anywhere in anything without swinging for
the fences sometimes and the fact that you're willing to
take that leap of faith sometimes. I know a million
people who would have considered this reality show and ultimately
(32:59):
decided not to do it, or considered having a podcast
and ultimately deciding not to do it. I actually thought
that you might have been one of those people that
ultimately decided not to do the podcast. But I'm so
glad you did, and I'm so glad that you were
sharing more and more each week. And I think people
are gonna be surprised. There's gonna be a lot of
(33:20):
stuff they learn in the next few weeks that I
don't think everybody's expecting. I'm excited for people to continue
on this journey, just like I'm gonna be.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
I mean, I can't wait for everybody to continue watching.
And so I just asked you about what you saw
on my biggest growth was, But what about my biggest
weakness or frustration.
Speaker 3 (33:42):
I don't want to call this a weakness, because I
think it's very natural for anybody, But I do think
that something that I would love to work through is
not being so concerned about what blogs and fan pages
and Bravo meme pages, not being so sensitive or not
(34:04):
worrying as much about what they say. At the end
of the day. Any TV show, any reality TV show,
you want people talking about it. Sometimes they say good things,
sometimes they say bad things. But I do want you
to just remember that it's a TV show and you
don't always have to win. No, you don't always have
to I get it.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
I just get frustrated. I'm like, that's not the truth,
that's not how it went.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
And eventually we're gonna let go and we're just gonna
know that that's okay.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
Yeah, well, thank you again for.
Speaker 3 (34:35):
Coming on, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
I have so much to do because I have to
get ready for the reunion tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (34:42):
Yeah, we need to go talk about that. We need
to go. We need to go. Let's go have lunch.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
Yeah I know.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
But I'm going to be as vulnerable and as honest
and open as possible, and I just hope that everybody
appreciates that.
Speaker 3 (34:58):
I think they will. That's all you can do. Be yourself,
tell the truth, and the rest will fall into place.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
Okay, let's go have lunch.
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