August 8, 2023 • 29 mins
Extras from Cecilia Steyn’s harrowing interview, updates on the case of possible police corruption, and stories of the team’s experiences in South Africa.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
School of Humans.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
This show follows the investigation of serial murders and contains
material that may be disturbing. Listener discretion advised.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Welcome everybody. Kurt Kubachek here, Thank you so much for
tuning in to our bonus episode. I wanted to bring
you all back because there was a lot of things
we wanted to share with you all, including more in
depth interviews with Cecilia Stein. We'll also hear great insight
from Nicky Falkoff and more from Merinduz Stein. So I've
(00:39):
got Jennifer Tacchini, my co producer, here with me.
Speaker 4 (00:42):
Hi.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
It's great to be back, and.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Also I'm really excited to introduce another important team member,
our lead producer, Julia chriscau.
Speaker 5 (00:50):
Hey, good to be here.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
We're going to tie up some loose ends of the case,
including what we currently know about the open investigation into
Colonel Diyager, Captain Johann van Vick, and Cecilia's husband, Officer
Jari Stein. We'll also take you through everything, including some
of our wild adventures on the ground in South Africa.
If you've gotten this far, we appreciate you coming to
(01:13):
the bonus episode of Queen havoc Here's doctor Niki Falcoff.
Speaker 5 (01:22):
These countries with these kind of really big, opaque governments
and these really really complex, angry, difficult histories of violence,
and these societies that are very diverse, where lots of
people feel left out, you know, in a way that
you wouldn't necessarily get in Western Europe. Is there something
about those kinds of societies that makes people more susceptible
(01:43):
to the sort of charisma that you know, a Manson
or a Cecilia Stein has quite possibly?
Speaker 3 (01:50):
Well I met Cecilia Stein this week. Oh my god? Yeah,
how is that? Most people could fall prey to her? Okay,
instantly when we met it began her control. Yeah, she
was on it the moment it started.
Speaker 5 (02:12):
So she there's some kind of manipulative skill that this
person has that is beyond the understanding of most of us.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
And if you're not, i mean really hyper self aware,
you wouldn't see it.
Speaker 5 (02:28):
Wow, imagine if she used her powers for good?
Speaker 2 (02:34):
So what was that like being in her presence then?
So I know we talked a little bit about it
in the episodes, but like, did you feel that she
was like working that charm on you all when you
were meeting her in the prison.
Speaker 6 (02:44):
I think so. I mean immediately when we walked in
the room, we were introduced to a lot of the
staff and a lot of the people that were there.
And it really felt like we had to remind ourselves
where we were because it felt like just a casual
conversation with friends and you know, just catching up, you know,
(03:06):
over coffee.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
As a reminder, Sun City is one of the most
dangerous prisons in South Africa. She instantly welcomed us. She
just went in for hugs. It wasn't like we had
a choice. But she was lovely and friendly and I
mean she made everybody in the whole area know that
we were there to see her. And I mean she's
(03:30):
laughing and giggling. She doesn't take anything really that seriously
with us. She tried to keep everything really really light.
I mean, she brought us into you know, where you forgot.
It's strange when you obviously are like, how could you
do this to people? And how could you, you know,
do this manipulate people, abuse religion, you know, cause people
(03:50):
to take lives, and then you're actually with these people
and they're kind to you and they're respectful to you,
and you obviously have your especially with Cecilia going Okay,
she's she's playing chess too, so and I think that
was the biggest thing me and Jennifer, you know, was like,
always remember she's she can't shut that off. She she's
(04:10):
always going to be Cecilia. She's always going to be
playing chess. So don't get too comfortable. Yep, don't get
too comfortable. So but I mean, Mirinda, as you heard
in the series, you know, I was pretty rocked after
meeting her. But what was I think so overwhelming for
me is that she was really really nice to me,
and to know that just in a quickness that she
(04:33):
could go and turn into whether it's because of her manipulated,
brainwashed you know, kind of psyche about Cecilia, or she's
just capable of that and has that deep thing right.
But the scariest part is I saw the high school teacher. Yeah,
I literally experienced the high school teacher when I sat
(04:54):
with her, which was the daytime. Yeah, the daytime, Mirinda.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Yeah, you know, and it seems like everyone had kind
of a split personality. I mean Luke talks about that
as well. Oh yeah, you know, having feeling like he's
one person during the day and then at night he's himself.
And it's so horrible to have to put on this
mask all the time. But I feel like for Cecilia
and eventually Marinda, probably it didn't feel like a mask anymore, right,
(05:21):
It just became who they were.
Speaker 7 (05:23):
I see myself as I see myself as a vigilante.
And then I thought, okay, Marenda, so I fetched my
old broken dictionary and it says that a person who
takes care.
Speaker 5 (05:34):
Of a criminal act.
Speaker 7 (05:37):
So you might not agree with the vigilante.
Speaker 5 (05:39):
See, the people.
Speaker 7 (05:40):
That we killed were bad, but they were.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Potatoes. Okay.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
I think one of the most interesting quotes from Cecilia
that you all got was that Cecilia means blindness.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Even in court, you listen to people testify and it's
the opinion of something that happened. Just example, in court,
the prosecutor was explaining to me what might tattoos mean,
and I have an eye tattooed on my shoulder and
he was saying that it's the eye of run. I'm
going no, my name is Cecilia. It means blindness.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
She is using her charm to real people in but
she's completely blind to their experience. To like anyone else's
experience besides her own, which is like the narcissist psychopath
thing that's happening.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
At one point I asked Cecilia how it felt to
be labeled the female Charles Manson, and this was a response.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
Well, this is the first time I'm hearing someone saying
that I'm the female version of Charles Manson. I don't
know a lot about him, but will definitely go check
up on that. I was always over to present myself.
It's something that inchiegued me. I do believe he was female.
Just for the record, it's not a sexisting Females are
(07:10):
so much better at everything else. What's this saying? Give
what the devil isn't able to do? You'll send a woman.
Speaker 3 (07:21):
I believe that she saw this avenue into these people
of Let me give you purpose correct, Let me give
you I need to be taken care of, I need
your money, I need a ride, I need your help.
Let me give you something to be purposeful about. And
(07:44):
that's what I think is slightly unique about this. You know,
this serial mastermind, whatever all the different names they give her,
it's just a unique brand into finding people that specifically
have this need to nurture.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (08:01):
No, that's actually a very very very good point that
I hadn't thought of. I'm thinking about cut leaders that
I know a little bit about, people like the Jonestown
crime and other kind of massive cut leaders. What they
tend to do is they do provide people with the
sense of purpose, but in the sense that they go,
you must follow me, and then you two will be
strong like me. Their charisma is about strength and power,
(08:21):
whereas what she did was almost about weakness. She was
constantly showing how vulnerable she is. I wonder if that's
something to do with being a female cult leader rather
than a male cult leader. That you cannot take this huge,
vast patriarchal position where you go I am God, I
am Jesus, everyone must follow me. Instead you go, I
am I am the thing that needs to be saved
(08:43):
from the greatest evil around, and you must all collectively
save me, and in doing so you save yourselves.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
Yes, and you're doing something good and you're doing something righteous.
Cecilia used pity as a manipulation tactic wherever she could.
She never failed to mention her sicknes even with us.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
I think, at the end of the day, it was
just a group of people really taking care of each other.
I was the one that was sick the whole time. Yeah,
my lungs and messed up, Yes, all of those things.
But it wasn't just taking care of me because I
was sick. We were friends. We cooked together, we ate
together every day, we visited together every day. I think
(09:24):
it was more just being there. I know in the
court case they pulled that out of proportion, but it
was really just a group of people taking care of
each other. So, yeah, what they're saying, Korn, what happens
in real life is too completely completely different things.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
Cecilia is chock full of contradiction herself, constantly creating a
facade to hide behind. Detective Ben Boysen told us that
he believes Cecilia and EPD to be connected to at
least four more murders, ones that he couldn't prove.
Speaker 8 (09:57):
I linked them actually with were fifteen murders, but I
could only prove leven, so I only took that eleven
cases to court at the end of the day.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
Ben also did some digging into Cecilia's background before the
days of Ria grunivald An.
Speaker 8 (10:14):
EPD even began going back Cecilia's husband had a girlfriend
in two thousand and five, and eventually she was also
killed in a brutal way. But in two thousand and five,
Zach Valentine and Marenda and those people was not part
of her So I don't know if Cecilia did that
(10:36):
killing by herself or was there at that stage other
people in her life that she was convincing to kill people.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Ye, it's like Suside said she could open a university
to teach people manipulation.
Speaker 6 (10:52):
Yeah. I mean she had them believe that. You know,
she gave everybody a teddy bear, and they believed that
she embodied the teddy bear and that she could watch
them through the teddy bear and all their actions. And
so Marcelle and the room believe that they're being watched
at all times.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Let go of that.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
She never admitted anything to us with regard to the
crimes and told us her versions of everything. We knew
that there was a dark side or a shadow version
of herself that she didn't show us, which was capable
of saying and doing whatever it took to get what
she wanted.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
I was believed there's no biggo small sense citizen, whether
you lie or kill or steal. Some people steal chocolates,
some people steal people's lives. Yeah, waither it's it's shoplifting
or murder or there's no bigg or small citizen. So yeah,
(11:46):
I don't have the right to judge anybody. I think
we just.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
As you know, we'll be right back.
Speaker 5 (12:02):
A lot of those common and grifters end up being
religious leaders and then they just become common and grifters
at a larger scale, right. I'm just I'm thinking about
the kind of really extractive evangelical churches that are popping
up all over South Africa, where people who have very
very very little are giving most of what they have
to a preacher.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
I would love to dive into that, because we've also
found our way to attend one of the church that
one of the police officers who's under investigation right now
is pastoring.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Oh wow.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
Basically we found out while we were there that Diyogart
had opened up some kind of a small congregation of
his own. I know, this is absolutely insane, right after
hearing everything we just did. So on the day that
I was set to go into the prison to see
Merinda Stein, Jennifer was very interested in obviously joining me,
(12:56):
but the only time of this church service was the
day I was set to go in to the prison.
So I kind of, you know, looked at Jennifer and said, hey,
I know you're going to be on your own here
pretty much, but I think this is really important, don't
you think? And she totally agreed. So, Jennifer, you want
to tell me about that day?
Speaker 6 (13:15):
Yeah. So I really was curious about Diagar and wanted
to ask him some questions. We really wanted to get
the perspective of the detectives that we hadn't spoken to.
We hopped in a car with one of our colleagues
from South Africa and drove two hours outside of Johannesburg
and pulled up and unfortunately I was left my own
(13:39):
devices to go and by myself, and we were running
a little bit late. So unfortunately the church had started
and approached the you know, it was like a small house,
similar to like a house in the valley in Los Angeles.
It was a little paranoid about going in. What I
was I going to say, hadn't really prepared the questions
(14:02):
or you know, what the approach was. Because I knew
that he was a pastor of this church, and so
it was a delicate process to try to be able
to speak to him. And walked up to the ornately
carved wooden doors and pushed lightly on them, and it
was locked, and so I thought I had an out,
and then I turned around to leave, and then a
(14:22):
person unlocked the door and opened the door and welcomed
me in. And as soon as I stepped into the church,
the room went silent, and I was staring directly at Diager,
who was at the pulpit. He was maybe around five
eight five ' nine, late fifties, short hair like piercing
(14:46):
blue eyes, with a big presence. He kind of teeters
between like lovable grandpa and tony soprano. And he's slowly
walked down through about thirty chairs of people and embraced
me in a hug and had me sit down on
(15:10):
the back row near a fireplace. The guy that was
standing guard at the door locked the door, and I
immediately scanned the room looking for windows, doors, some type
of exit, and there were bars on the windows. There
was one back door, but that was it, and then
there was a fireplace and that was it. So I
(15:30):
was kind of stuck in this room and I tried
to blend in to the best of my ability, but
the whole church service was an Afrikaan. So as soon
as the singing started, they there were several individuals in
the congregation that stood up and they started waving red flags. Wow,
like you don't need anything more clear than a huge
(15:52):
red flag waving in your face to get the hell out.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Of the universe was like, go nack it out. The
fact that you were locked in where you're like, I
feel like I would have been like shaking, Like my
hands would have been shaking.
Speaker 5 (16:05):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 6 (16:05):
I mean the thing is once the door locked, knowing
doom right now, Yeah, knowing the door locked, knowing knowing
what I knew about Deoger, I think was the scariest
thing because here you have this guy who's at the pulpit,
you know, giving a sermon for families, for there were
children in there, you know, like it was a family church,
(16:28):
and he presented himself as this family man you know,
that was helping the congregation. And that's one side of him,
and you know, we knew another side of him.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
But so it was all different kinds of people.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Family, yeah, family.
Speaker 6 (16:46):
Young people yes. And then at one point, so they
were singing hymns, and he asked a couple of people
to come to the front and and then a person
started speaking in tongues, started convulsing and then collapsed onto
the floor, and Dioger and some congregation members came and
helped her up. As this was all going on, our colleague,
(17:06):
who was out in the car outside texted me saying, look,
you need to tread carefully because this is a private church,
this is a private home. He is still a detective,
still in the force, and if he feels like you're
being aggressive with him or you know, too confrontational, he
(17:29):
could arrest you. You know, you're trespassing on his property.
So the service wrapped up and Diager again walked down
the aisle towards me and in English, you know, asked
me if I wanted to come join the congregation in
the back room for coffee and tea afterwards. And so
followed them all in there and let into a really
(17:51):
small back room. It was tiled floor, there were windows,
and the congregation all surrounded me and they handed me coffee.
Speaker 3 (18:02):
Were you said at ease a little bit now that
you had witnesses?
Speaker 6 (18:05):
So you yeah, there were I think I was a
little bit more at ease, but at the same time,
my anxiety was, you know, peeking, because I didn't know
what I was going to do, because I thought, oh,
I was going to approach him ask him some questions
about the case, and then realizing that that's probably not
the best idea, and the congregation surrounding me and then
(18:27):
his wife. His wife comes up to me and was
really close, you know. They the congregation was very curious
about who I was and how I came to be there,
because this was two hours outside of a main city,
and I told them that I told him that I
had found the church through Facebook, which is true. And
(18:48):
then I also had our South African colleague texting me, going,
do not do anything stupid, like I can only bail
you out so far. You know, you don't end up
the same prison as Celia and Mirinda and the rest
of electisprudeus, which I don't know if that's actually possible.
But so it got awkward because as everyone was surrounding
(19:11):
me asking questions and I didn't, I was kind of
backing up against the corner, you know, not really sure
what to say to get out of there, because I
wasn't going to take this opportunity to confront him with
his wife and his congregation. There's kids, you know, It's
like this was not the time and the place, and
so I just sort of cut out and said it
(19:32):
was so nice to be here, and shook everyone's hand,
and then quickly ran out to the street in search
of our colleagues car, and they were not anywhere to
be seen, and so I ran down the block as
fast as I could try to find their car and
found it, hopped in and we sped away as fast
(19:52):
as we could. But the scary thing was on the
drive back, another one of the colleagues that we had
met with in South Africa while we are there, texted
me and said, oh, Diagar mentioned that you visited him
at church today and I hadn't, you know, I hadn't
told them anything or you know, any name, or you know,
(20:14):
maybe because I was from the States, like that was
their connection. But and that was really scary that he
knew who I was the whole time.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
So in seguence of events, so Cecilia gets convicted in
August of twenty nineteen. Then, I mean, obviously Dreams was
implicated in some of the testimony, right, because he was
living there, so he had to be aware of some
of it. Is it safe to say that Ben Boyson
was like, Okay, this is not over and in order
(20:53):
to like actually end this, like there's a larger problem here,
which is there's corruption and organized crime happen in the
police force, which Dion Venvick talks about a lot.
Speaker 4 (21:03):
As a young prosecutor in nineteen ninety three, you would
have blind me out of the wood if you told
me then this is what South Africa would become. So
there is an element of how shall I explain cancer
in our model fiber on On ground level.
Speaker 6 (21:28):
It's safe to say that Ben wanted to get these
guys behind bars.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
Ultimately, what we know of is the Yager was removed
from the police service without a pension.
Speaker 6 (21:40):
This was November twenty twenty two, right, and you all
were there in August of twenty twenty two. So November
twenty twenty two, Diyager was removed from the force I think,
a month before his pension was supposed to kick in. Yes,
and there's currently an open investigation that could put him
by bars.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
I'm curious what you think Diager's motivations might have been
because you know, we obviously know from what we just
heard from you Jonnifer, that he is like a god
fearing individual. And I wonder, you know, do we know
anything about how Cecilia may have manipulated him, Like was
he just terrified of her because he also believed the
(22:23):
satanic stuff? Do you think she was like paying him
off maybe to keep them safe, Like maybe that's where
Zach Valentine and John Barnard's money was all going, do
you know, ensure their all of their safety.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
I don't know, but my gut tells me that this
is money from learning everything we did when we were
there and the investigation and how underpaid and overworked the
police force is. I think this is just something where
you know, he was able to make a little bit
extra money. He had known and had a prior relationship
(22:58):
with Cecilia, so there was kind of a give and
take of you know, financial things and also gifts. I
think Ben mentioned that in the series, and that kind
of thing was going on because at the end of
the day, I think there was just too much to risk,
possibly for Diager if there wasn't money involved.
Speaker 5 (23:19):
The problem is the global system of capitalism that if
a woman was in charge, she would also be stuck
with And I think that's also why this particular case
caught people's attention so dramatically, because we are all so
horrified by the idea that women could do this, particularly
by the idea that a mother, a mother would sully
her daughter in this way. It's absolutely horrifying and you know,
(23:42):
fascinatingly sensational at the same time. So I think that's
drawn a lot of attention to this case.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
Colonel Henny Diyager has been released from his duties as
an officer of the law and his pension revoked. Cecilia
Stein's husband, Drees, is still working as a cop for
the South African Police Service. Captain Johann van Vick came
back to the force after resigning for a bit after
Michaela's murder. He too, still works for the SAPs. I
(24:24):
want to add one more thing before we wrap things up.
Something I thought was interesting while we were in South Africa.
I was asked by Luke, our main witness, to talk
to detective Sussette Canotse and Ben Boysen to try to
arrange a visit. Luke wanted to go to the prison
where LaRue is incarcerated to get some information and closure
(24:47):
on a few things and potentially helped Ben in the
case against the corrupt cops. So I reached out to
Suzette and told her about the situation. She'd helped Luke
in the past and agreed to make the trip to
be by a side. Susette flew up from Cape down
to Johannesburg and met up with Luke to visit LaRue
(25:09):
at Sun City Prison. During their visit, Susette told LaRue quote,
I wish you had come forward to me then and
told me your story. You were never implicated or involved
in the first four murders, so if you told me
the truth back in twenty twelve instead of when you
were caught in twenty sixteen, you would have never gone
(25:29):
to prison at all. Susette told us that there was
an unforgettable look on his face she washed as the
weight of her words sunk into his soul, and he
felt the raw truth of them, grieving the lost promise
of yet another life he'd callously extinguished his own. But
(25:49):
Luke there in prison with LaRue, he felt it what
he'd come to find a sense of closure. LaRue Stein
is set to be least from prison in twenty thirty nine.
There's also a small chance, according to the state advocates
we spoke with, that Cecilia Stein could be up for
(26:10):
parole in twenty forty four.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
At the end of the day, telling you aside of
what happened it is it is very much liberating in
a way.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
As we conclude this series, we extend our heartfelt gratitude
to all who have supported this podcast and everyone in
South Africa who welcomed us into your beautiful country. Thank
you again for joining us on this journey through the
darker chambers of the human heart. Together we peered into
the nearly unknowable minds of murderers and also ventured to
(26:52):
grapple with the losses and the victims they left in
their wake, and in doing so, we hope that we
also illuminated those aspects of the human psyche that defy
easy understanding. Cecilia Stein confessed she believes we are all
sinners and that only God can judge us. I have
(27:13):
to agree with her, but make no mistake, we can
still recognize evil when we see it. Trust yourself and
always listen to those whispers of truth inside you. Queen
Havoc in Her Murder Cult is a production of Schooly
(27:35):
Humans and iHeart Podcasts. Queen Havoc is hosted and created
by me Kurt Kupacheck, produced and written by Jennifer Takini,
Julia Chriscau and Kurt Kupachick. Lead producer is Julia Christgau.
Story editor is Saren Burnett. Senior producer is Amelia Brock.
(27:56):
Production manager is Daisy Church. Original music composed by Claire Campbell, editing,
sound design and scoring by Jesse Niswanger. Associate producers are
DaShan Moodley and Jamaine Kriher. Additional producing by Ben Melman,
fact checking by Dennis Webster. Recording engineers are Graham Gibson,
(28:20):
Clay Hillenberg and Josh Hook. Brind Stein was read by
Angelique Pretorius. Executive producers are Virginia Prescott, L. C. Crowley,
Brandon Barr, Jennifer Keny and Kurt Kupachak. We want to
thank all of those who so generously welcomed us in
South Africa and shared their stories. We're incredibly grateful to
(28:43):
you all. We also want to acknowledge how traumatic these
events are for the victims and their families. Please respect
their privacy. If you or someone you know has been
affected by cult behaviors, there are resources available, including Voices
for Dignity, at Christine Murray dot com
School of Humans.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
This show follows the investigation of serial murders and contains
material that may be disturbing. Listener discretion advised.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Welcome everybody. Kurt Kubachek here, Thank you so much for
tuning in to our bonus episode. I wanted to bring
you all back because there was a lot of things
we wanted to share with you all, including more in
depth interviews with Cecilia Stein. We'll also hear great insight
from Nicky Falkoff and more from Merinduz Stein. So I've
(00:39):
got Jennifer Tacchini, my co producer, here with me.
Speaker 4 (00:42):
Hi.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
It's great to be back, and.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Also I'm really excited to introduce another important team member,
our lead producer, Julia chriscau.
Speaker 5 (00:50):
Hey, good to be here.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
We're going to tie up some loose ends of the case,
including what we currently know about the open investigation into
Colonel Diyager, Captain Johann van Vick, and Cecilia's husband, Officer
Jari Stein. We'll also take you through everything, including some
of our wild adventures on the ground in South Africa.
If you've gotten this far, we appreciate you coming to
(01:13):
the bonus episode of Queen havoc Here's doctor Niki Falcoff.
Speaker 5 (01:22):
These countries with these kind of really big, opaque governments
and these really really complex, angry, difficult histories of violence,
and these societies that are very diverse, where lots of
people feel left out, you know, in a way that
you wouldn't necessarily get in Western Europe. Is there something
about those kinds of societies that makes people more susceptible
(01:43):
to the sort of charisma that you know, a Manson
or a Cecilia Stein has quite possibly?
Speaker 3 (01:50):
Well I met Cecilia Stein this week. Oh my god? Yeah,
how is that? Most people could fall prey to her? Okay,
instantly when we met it began her control. Yeah, she
was on it the moment it started.
Speaker 5 (02:12):
So she there's some kind of manipulative skill that this
person has that is beyond the understanding of most of us.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
And if you're not, i mean really hyper self aware,
you wouldn't see it.
Speaker 5 (02:28):
Wow, imagine if she used her powers for good?
Speaker 2 (02:34):
So what was that like being in her presence then?
So I know we talked a little bit about it
in the episodes, but like, did you feel that she
was like working that charm on you all when you
were meeting her in the prison.
Speaker 6 (02:44):
I think so. I mean immediately when we walked in
the room, we were introduced to a lot of the
staff and a lot of the people that were there.
And it really felt like we had to remind ourselves
where we were because it felt like just a casual
conversation with friends and you know, just catching up, you know,
(03:06):
over coffee.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
As a reminder, Sun City is one of the most
dangerous prisons in South Africa. She instantly welcomed us. She
just went in for hugs. It wasn't like we had
a choice. But she was lovely and friendly and I
mean she made everybody in the whole area know that
we were there to see her. And I mean she's
(03:30):
laughing and giggling. She doesn't take anything really that seriously
with us. She tried to keep everything really really light.
I mean, she brought us into you know, where you forgot.
It's strange when you obviously are like, how could you
do this to people? And how could you, you know,
do this manipulate people, abuse religion, you know, cause people
(03:50):
to take lives, and then you're actually with these people
and they're kind to you and they're respectful to you,
and you obviously have your especially with Cecilia going Okay,
she's she's playing chess too, so and I think that
was the biggest thing me and Jennifer, you know, was like,
always remember she's she can't shut that off. She she's
(04:10):
always going to be Cecilia. She's always going to be
playing chess. So don't get too comfortable. Yep, don't get
too comfortable. So but I mean, Mirinda, as you heard
in the series, you know, I was pretty rocked after
meeting her. But what was I think so overwhelming for
me is that she was really really nice to me,
and to know that just in a quickness that she
(04:33):
could go and turn into whether it's because of her manipulated,
brainwashed you know, kind of psyche about Cecilia, or she's
just capable of that and has that deep thing right.
But the scariest part is I saw the high school teacher. Yeah,
I literally experienced the high school teacher when I sat
(04:54):
with her, which was the daytime. Yeah, the daytime, Mirinda.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Yeah, you know, and it seems like everyone had kind
of a split personality. I mean Luke talks about that
as well. Oh yeah, you know, having feeling like he's
one person during the day and then at night he's himself.
And it's so horrible to have to put on this
mask all the time. But I feel like for Cecilia
and eventually Marinda, probably it didn't feel like a mask anymore, right,
(05:21):
It just became who they were.
Speaker 7 (05:23):
I see myself as I see myself as a vigilante.
And then I thought, okay, Marenda, so I fetched my
old broken dictionary and it says that a person who
takes care.
Speaker 5 (05:34):
Of a criminal act.
Speaker 7 (05:37):
So you might not agree with the vigilante.
Speaker 5 (05:39):
See, the people.
Speaker 7 (05:40):
That we killed were bad, but they were.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Potatoes. Okay.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
I think one of the most interesting quotes from Cecilia
that you all got was that Cecilia means blindness.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Even in court, you listen to people testify and it's
the opinion of something that happened. Just example, in court,
the prosecutor was explaining to me what might tattoos mean,
and I have an eye tattooed on my shoulder and
he was saying that it's the eye of run. I'm
going no, my name is Cecilia. It means blindness.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
She is using her charm to real people in but
she's completely blind to their experience. To like anyone else's
experience besides her own, which is like the narcissist psychopath
thing that's happening.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
At one point I asked Cecilia how it felt to
be labeled the female Charles Manson, and this was a response.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
Well, this is the first time I'm hearing someone saying
that I'm the female version of Charles Manson. I don't
know a lot about him, but will definitely go check
up on that. I was always over to present myself.
It's something that inchiegued me. I do believe he was female.
Just for the record, it's not a sexisting Females are
(07:10):
so much better at everything else. What's this saying? Give
what the devil isn't able to do? You'll send a woman.
Speaker 3 (07:21):
I believe that she saw this avenue into these people
of Let me give you purpose correct, Let me give
you I need to be taken care of, I need
your money, I need a ride, I need your help.
Let me give you something to be purposeful about. And
(07:44):
that's what I think is slightly unique about this. You know,
this serial mastermind, whatever all the different names they give her,
it's just a unique brand into finding people that specifically
have this need to nurture.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (08:01):
No, that's actually a very very very good point that
I hadn't thought of. I'm thinking about cut leaders that
I know a little bit about, people like the Jonestown
crime and other kind of massive cut leaders. What they
tend to do is they do provide people with the
sense of purpose, but in the sense that they go,
you must follow me, and then you two will be
strong like me. Their charisma is about strength and power,
(08:21):
whereas what she did was almost about weakness. She was
constantly showing how vulnerable she is. I wonder if that's
something to do with being a female cult leader rather
than a male cult leader. That you cannot take this huge,
vast patriarchal position where you go I am God, I
am Jesus, everyone must follow me. Instead you go, I
am I am the thing that needs to be saved
(08:43):
from the greatest evil around, and you must all collectively
save me, and in doing so you save yourselves.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
Yes, and you're doing something good and you're doing something righteous.
Cecilia used pity as a manipulation tactic wherever she could.
She never failed to mention her sicknes even with us.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
I think, at the end of the day, it was
just a group of people really taking care of each other.
I was the one that was sick the whole time. Yeah,
my lungs and messed up, Yes, all of those things.
But it wasn't just taking care of me because I
was sick. We were friends. We cooked together, we ate
together every day, we visited together every day. I think
(09:24):
it was more just being there. I know in the
court case they pulled that out of proportion, but it
was really just a group of people taking care of
each other. So, yeah, what they're saying, Korn, what happens
in real life is too completely completely different things.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
Cecilia is chock full of contradiction herself, constantly creating a
facade to hide behind. Detective Ben Boysen told us that
he believes Cecilia and EPD to be connected to at
least four more murders, ones that he couldn't prove.
Speaker 8 (09:57):
I linked them actually with were fifteen murders, but I
could only prove leven, so I only took that eleven
cases to court at the end of the day.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
Ben also did some digging into Cecilia's background before the
days of Ria grunivald An.
Speaker 8 (10:14):
EPD even began going back Cecilia's husband had a girlfriend
in two thousand and five, and eventually she was also
killed in a brutal way. But in two thousand and five,
Zach Valentine and Marenda and those people was not part
of her So I don't know if Cecilia did that
(10:36):
killing by herself or was there at that stage other
people in her life that she was convincing to kill people.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Ye, it's like Suside said she could open a university
to teach people manipulation.
Speaker 6 (10:52):
Yeah. I mean she had them believe that. You know,
she gave everybody a teddy bear, and they believed that
she embodied the teddy bear and that she could watch
them through the teddy bear and all their actions. And
so Marcelle and the room believe that they're being watched
at all times.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Let go of that.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
She never admitted anything to us with regard to the
crimes and told us her versions of everything. We knew
that there was a dark side or a shadow version
of herself that she didn't show us, which was capable
of saying and doing whatever it took to get what
she wanted.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
I was believed there's no biggo small sense citizen, whether
you lie or kill or steal. Some people steal chocolates,
some people steal people's lives. Yeah, waither it's it's shoplifting
or murder or there's no bigg or small citizen. So yeah,
(11:46):
I don't have the right to judge anybody. I think
we just.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
As you know, we'll be right back.
Speaker 5 (12:02):
A lot of those common and grifters end up being
religious leaders and then they just become common and grifters
at a larger scale, right. I'm just I'm thinking about
the kind of really extractive evangelical churches that are popping
up all over South Africa, where people who have very
very very little are giving most of what they have
to a preacher.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
I would love to dive into that, because we've also
found our way to attend one of the church that
one of the police officers who's under investigation right now
is pastoring.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Oh wow.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
Basically we found out while we were there that Diyogart
had opened up some kind of a small congregation of
his own. I know, this is absolutely insane, right after
hearing everything we just did. So on the day that
I was set to go into the prison to see
Merinda Stein, Jennifer was very interested in obviously joining me,
(12:56):
but the only time of this church service was the
day I was set to go in to the prison.
So I kind of, you know, looked at Jennifer and said, hey,
I know you're going to be on your own here
pretty much, but I think this is really important, don't
you think? And she totally agreed. So, Jennifer, you want
to tell me about that day?
Speaker 6 (13:15):
Yeah. So I really was curious about Diagar and wanted
to ask him some questions. We really wanted to get
the perspective of the detectives that we hadn't spoken to.
We hopped in a car with one of our colleagues
from South Africa and drove two hours outside of Johannesburg
and pulled up and unfortunately I was left my own
(13:39):
devices to go and by myself, and we were running
a little bit late. So unfortunately the church had started
and approached the you know, it was like a small house,
similar to like a house in the valley in Los Angeles.
It was a little paranoid about going in. What I
was I going to say, hadn't really prepared the questions
(14:02):
or you know, what the approach was. Because I knew
that he was a pastor of this church, and so
it was a delicate process to try to be able
to speak to him. And walked up to the ornately
carved wooden doors and pushed lightly on them, and it
was locked, and so I thought I had an out,
and then I turned around to leave, and then a
(14:22):
person unlocked the door and opened the door and welcomed
me in. And as soon as I stepped into the church,
the room went silent, and I was staring directly at Diager,
who was at the pulpit. He was maybe around five
eight five ' nine, late fifties, short hair like piercing
(14:46):
blue eyes, with a big presence. He kind of teeters
between like lovable grandpa and tony soprano. And he's slowly
walked down through about thirty chairs of people and embraced
me in a hug and had me sit down on
(15:10):
the back row near a fireplace. The guy that was
standing guard at the door locked the door, and I
immediately scanned the room looking for windows, doors, some type
of exit, and there were bars on the windows. There
was one back door, but that was it, and then
there was a fireplace and that was it. So I
(15:30):
was kind of stuck in this room and I tried
to blend in to the best of my ability, but
the whole church service was an Afrikaan. So as soon
as the singing started, they there were several individuals in
the congregation that stood up and they started waving red flags. Wow,
like you don't need anything more clear than a huge
(15:52):
red flag waving in your face to get the hell out.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Of the universe was like, go nack it out. The
fact that you were locked in where you're like, I
feel like I would have been like shaking, Like my
hands would have been shaking.
Speaker 5 (16:05):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 6 (16:05):
I mean the thing is once the door locked, knowing
doom right now, Yeah, knowing the door locked, knowing knowing
what I knew about Deoger, I think was the scariest
thing because here you have this guy who's at the pulpit,
you know, giving a sermon for families, for there were
children in there, you know, like it was a family church,
(16:28):
and he presented himself as this family man you know,
that was helping the congregation. And that's one side of him,
and you know, we knew another side of him.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
But so it was all different kinds of people.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Family, yeah, family.
Speaker 6 (16:46):
Young people yes. And then at one point, so they
were singing hymns, and he asked a couple of people
to come to the front and and then a person
started speaking in tongues, started convulsing and then collapsed onto
the floor, and Dioger and some congregation members came and
helped her up. As this was all going on, our colleague,
(17:06):
who was out in the car outside texted me saying, look,
you need to tread carefully because this is a private church,
this is a private home. He is still a detective,
still in the force, and if he feels like you're
being aggressive with him or you know, too confrontational, he
(17:29):
could arrest you. You know, you're trespassing on his property.
So the service wrapped up and Diager again walked down
the aisle towards me and in English, you know, asked
me if I wanted to come join the congregation in
the back room for coffee and tea afterwards. And so
followed them all in there and let into a really
(17:51):
small back room. It was tiled floor, there were windows,
and the congregation all surrounded me and they handed me coffee.
Speaker 3 (18:02):
Were you said at ease a little bit now that
you had witnesses?
Speaker 6 (18:05):
So you yeah, there were I think I was a
little bit more at ease, but at the same time,
my anxiety was, you know, peeking, because I didn't know
what I was going to do, because I thought, oh,
I was going to approach him ask him some questions
about the case, and then realizing that that's probably not
the best idea, and the congregation surrounding me and then
(18:27):
his wife. His wife comes up to me and was
really close, you know. They the congregation was very curious
about who I was and how I came to be there,
because this was two hours outside of a main city,
and I told them that I told him that I
had found the church through Facebook, which is true. And
(18:48):
then I also had our South African colleague texting me, going,
do not do anything stupid, like I can only bail
you out so far. You know, you don't end up
the same prison as Celia and Mirinda and the rest
of electisprudeus, which I don't know if that's actually possible.
But so it got awkward because as everyone was surrounding
(19:11):
me asking questions and I didn't, I was kind of
backing up against the corner, you know, not really sure
what to say to get out of there, because I
wasn't going to take this opportunity to confront him with
his wife and his congregation. There's kids, you know, It's
like this was not the time and the place, and
so I just sort of cut out and said it
(19:32):
was so nice to be here, and shook everyone's hand,
and then quickly ran out to the street in search
of our colleagues car, and they were not anywhere to
be seen, and so I ran down the block as
fast as I could try to find their car and
found it, hopped in and we sped away as fast
(19:52):
as we could. But the scary thing was on the
drive back, another one of the colleagues that we had
met with in South Africa while we are there, texted
me and said, oh, Diagar mentioned that you visited him
at church today and I hadn't, you know, I hadn't
told them anything or you know, any name, or you know,
(20:14):
maybe because I was from the States, like that was
their connection. But and that was really scary that he
knew who I was the whole time.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
So in seguence of events, so Cecilia gets convicted in
August of twenty nineteen. Then, I mean, obviously Dreams was
implicated in some of the testimony, right, because he was
living there, so he had to be aware of some
of it. Is it safe to say that Ben Boyson
was like, Okay, this is not over and in order
(20:53):
to like actually end this, like there's a larger problem here,
which is there's corruption and organized crime happen in the
police force, which Dion Venvick talks about a lot.
Speaker 4 (21:03):
As a young prosecutor in nineteen ninety three, you would
have blind me out of the wood if you told
me then this is what South Africa would become. So
there is an element of how shall I explain cancer
in our model fiber on On ground level.
Speaker 6 (21:28):
It's safe to say that Ben wanted to get these
guys behind bars.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
Ultimately, what we know of is the Yager was removed
from the police service without a pension.
Speaker 6 (21:40):
This was November twenty twenty two, right, and you all
were there in August of twenty twenty two. So November
twenty twenty two, Diyager was removed from the force I think,
a month before his pension was supposed to kick in. Yes,
and there's currently an open investigation that could put him
by bars.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
I'm curious what you think Diager's motivations might have been
because you know, we obviously know from what we just
heard from you Jonnifer, that he is like a god
fearing individual. And I wonder, you know, do we know
anything about how Cecilia may have manipulated him, Like was
he just terrified of her because he also believed the
(22:23):
satanic stuff? Do you think she was like paying him
off maybe to keep them safe, Like maybe that's where
Zach Valentine and John Barnard's money was all going, do
you know, ensure their all of their safety.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
I don't know, but my gut tells me that this
is money from learning everything we did when we were
there and the investigation and how underpaid and overworked the
police force is. I think this is just something where
you know, he was able to make a little bit
extra money. He had known and had a prior relationship
(22:58):
with Cecilia, so there was kind of a give and
take of you know, financial things and also gifts. I
think Ben mentioned that in the series, and that kind
of thing was going on because at the end of
the day, I think there was just too much to risk,
possibly for Diager if there wasn't money involved.
Speaker 5 (23:19):
The problem is the global system of capitalism that if
a woman was in charge, she would also be stuck
with And I think that's also why this particular case
caught people's attention so dramatically, because we are all so
horrified by the idea that women could do this, particularly
by the idea that a mother, a mother would sully
her daughter in this way. It's absolutely horrifying and you know,
(23:42):
fascinatingly sensational at the same time. So I think that's
drawn a lot of attention to this case.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
Colonel Henny Diyager has been released from his duties as
an officer of the law and his pension revoked. Cecilia
Stein's husband, Drees, is still working as a cop for
the South African Police Service. Captain Johann van Vick came
back to the force after resigning for a bit after
Michaela's murder. He too, still works for the SAPs. I
(24:24):
want to add one more thing before we wrap things up.
Something I thought was interesting while we were in South Africa.
I was asked by Luke, our main witness, to talk
to detective Sussette Canotse and Ben Boysen to try to
arrange a visit. Luke wanted to go to the prison
where LaRue is incarcerated to get some information and closure
(24:47):
on a few things and potentially helped Ben in the
case against the corrupt cops. So I reached out to
Suzette and told her about the situation. She'd helped Luke
in the past and agreed to make the trip to
be by a side. Susette flew up from Cape down
to Johannesburg and met up with Luke to visit LaRue
(25:09):
at Sun City Prison. During their visit, Susette told LaRue quote,
I wish you had come forward to me then and
told me your story. You were never implicated or involved
in the first four murders, so if you told me
the truth back in twenty twelve instead of when you
were caught in twenty sixteen, you would have never gone
(25:29):
to prison at all. Susette told us that there was
an unforgettable look on his face she washed as the
weight of her words sunk into his soul, and he
felt the raw truth of them, grieving the lost promise
of yet another life he'd callously extinguished his own. But
(25:49):
Luke there in prison with LaRue, he felt it what
he'd come to find a sense of closure. LaRue Stein
is set to be least from prison in twenty thirty nine.
There's also a small chance, according to the state advocates
we spoke with, that Cecilia Stein could be up for
(26:10):
parole in twenty forty four.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
At the end of the day, telling you aside of
what happened it is it is very much liberating in
a way.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
As we conclude this series, we extend our heartfelt gratitude
to all who have supported this podcast and everyone in
South Africa who welcomed us into your beautiful country. Thank
you again for joining us on this journey through the
darker chambers of the human heart. Together we peered into
the nearly unknowable minds of murderers and also ventured to
(26:52):
grapple with the losses and the victims they left in
their wake, and in doing so, we hope that we
also illuminated those aspects of the human psyche that defy
easy understanding. Cecilia Stein confessed she believes we are all
sinners and that only God can judge us. I have
(27:13):
to agree with her, but make no mistake, we can
still recognize evil when we see it. Trust yourself and
always listen to those whispers of truth inside you. Queen
Havoc in Her Murder Cult is a production of Schooly
(27:35):
Humans and iHeart Podcasts. Queen Havoc is hosted and created
by me Kurt Kupacheck, produced and written by Jennifer Takini,
Julia Chriscau and Kurt Kupachick. Lead producer is Julia Christgau.
Story editor is Saren Burnett. Senior producer is Amelia Brock.
(27:56):
Production manager is Daisy Church. Original music composed by Claire Campbell, editing,
sound design and scoring by Jesse Niswanger. Associate producers are
DaShan Moodley and Jamaine Kriher. Additional producing by Ben Melman,
fact checking by Dennis Webster. Recording engineers are Graham Gibson,
(28:20):
Clay Hillenberg and Josh Hook. Brind Stein was read by
Angelique Pretorius. Executive producers are Virginia Prescott, L. C. Crowley,
Brandon Barr, Jennifer Keny and Kurt Kupachak. We want to
thank all of those who so generously welcomed us in
South Africa and shared their stories. We're incredibly grateful to
(28:43):
you all. We also want to acknowledge how traumatic these
events are for the victims and their families. Please respect
their privacy. If you or someone you know has been
affected by cult behaviors, there are resources available, including Voices
for Dignity, at Christine Murray dot com
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Nikki Glaser Podcast
Every week comedian and infamous roaster Nikki Glaser provides a fun, fast-paced, and brutally honest look into current pop-culture and her own personal life.