What Self-Help Gets Wrong: with Gretchen Rubin

Is self-help actually helpful? In this episode of Question Everything, Danielle speaks with Gretchen Rubin, #1 bestselling author and co-host of the Since You Asked podcast. Danielle and Gretchen unpack some big questions when it comes to the rampant self-improvement era we’re living in now. Questions like: Can people ever really change? How do you make better decisions when every option comes with regret? In this episode, you’ll learn:

• Why getting enough sleep is the most underrated habit for happiness and productivity
• How your chronotype can impact your daily energy, mood, and life
• Why reunions and old friendships are a key to connecting with others, but also another version of ourselves
• Why self-help is not a one-size-fits-all approach to life 
• The science behind how digital vs. IRL friendships impact the quality of our life 
• What psychology tells us about how behaviors ultimately dictate the quality of our lives 
• How to make tough life decisions without chasing “perfect” choices
• Practical strategies for reframing setbacks and career transitions

Follow Gretchen on Instagram @gretchenrubin

Check out Gretchen’s podcasts, Happier with Gretchen Rubin and Since You Asked with Lori Gottlieb and Gretchen Rubin

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
No one has all the answers, but when we ask
the right questions, we get a little closer, closer to truths,
closer to each other, even closer to ourselves. I'm journalist
Danielle Robe and each week, my guests and I come
together to challenge the status quo and our own ways
of thinking by daring to ask what if, why not?

(00:28):
And who says? So? Come curious, dig deep, and join
the conversation. It's time to question everything. Hello, my beautiful people.
I hope you're having a great week. I'm in New
York and having a hard time believing it's already Thursday.
I don't know if you feel this, but when I

(00:49):
travel for work, it's like the days all just get
mushed up together. But I'm here for a reason, and
actually you're a part of it. So I post it
on in Instagram, a talking circle that I threw at
Gloria Steinem's house in her living room where the talking
circles are, and we did it on Masculinity and I

(01:09):
got a bunch of comments and dms saying I can't
wait for this episode, and sadly we were not able
to record it. It's not an episode, but you did
give me an idea. So I have something very special
coming for you, something you know. I can't say this often,
but it's something that only I can give you. Nobody
else could do it. So that is coming on the

(01:31):
first Thursday of March, which is Women's month. You can
probably guess what it is, but it's coming. So I'm
very excited for that. So with that, we'll get into
today's episode. Have you noticed that everywhere you turn, someone
is telling you how to live your life. It's kind

(01:52):
of exhausting. We live in a world flooded with tips
and hacks in self improvement strategies, track your sleep, optimize
your mornings, habit stack everybody.

Speaker 2 (02:03):
You know.

Speaker 1 (02:03):
There's a popular theory that if all this advice really worked,
why are so many of us still exhausted, overwhelmed, and
unsure what actually makes a good life. I'm actually so
mindful of that on this podcast because I do want
every episode to improve all of our lives, and I
don't ever want to pretend that one hack can do it.

(02:24):
And our guest today solves for this. Okay. She is
a best selling author, podcaster, and happiness expert, and she
does not subscribe to that theory. Gretchen Rubin says modern
self help is not the one size fits all approach
that the Internet wants you to think it is.

Speaker 2 (02:41):
Sometimes people really try to jam themselves into someone else's model,
or they insist that everybody should fit in the model
that they're advocating. In my observation, that's just not the case.

Speaker 1 (02:52):
I think maybe when you hear Gretchen's title Happiness Researcher,
you might make the assumption that she wants us to
only live in a zone of bliss, that we should
find a way to shield life's painful moments and then
we'll be doing it right. And that's simply not true.
She's reframed what living a happy life means for an
entire generation. Spoiler alert, Avoiding the messy moments doesn't really

(03:15):
make us any happier.

Speaker 2 (03:17):
Sometimes to live up to our values, we have to
do something that's really unpleasant, or ask ourselves to do
something we don't want to do, or deprive ourselves as
something that we want, but that makes our life happier overall,
even though it maybe isn't what makes us feel good
in the moment.

Speaker 1 (03:33):
It might not surprise you that Gretchen, with all of
her understanding of happiness is really good at giving advice.
It's probably why she and her longtime friend, therapist Laurie Gottlieb,
started a podcast called Since You Asked. But she's not
here today to preach. Instead, she's here to help you
look inward, to find your own internal wisdom, to cut

(03:55):
through the noise on our path to self improvement. Because,
as always on our never ending search for answers, we
are met with even more to question. Today, it's time
to question everything with Gretchen Ruben. Gretchen, you are a
best selling author, an award winning podcaster, and one of

(04:16):
today's most trusted voices on human nature. You and your
work have helped millions of people examine how they live
and why. The why is the part that I love
so much. A lot of people don't know this, but
you started your career clerking for Supreme Court Justice Sandra
Dae O'Connor. Then you left, became a writer for ten
years and started studying happiness. What was the question you

(04:40):
couldn't stop asking yourself that made you walk away from
so much of this certainty and this career that you
had spent time becoming great at.

Speaker 2 (04:50):
Well, You know, there was a very specific question that
I asked myself. And I was clerking for Sandraday O'Connor
and I went for a walk on a beautiful October
day and I was looking up at the Capital Dome
and I thought, what am I interested in that everybody
else in the world is interested, Like, what is the
most interesting subject? Like I often asked myself rhetorical questions

(05:11):
like that, and I thought, well, power, money, fame, sex.
And it was like, power, money, fame, sex was this
single subject and I just became intensely focused on researching
and writing about it, which is something that had happened
to me my whole life. Will get intensely interested in
something and do a lot of research. But with this
it grew and I was spending all my time reading
and taking notes. And then finally it occurred to me,

(05:33):
this is the kind of thing a person would do
if they were going to write a book. Maybe I
could write a book. So then I went to the
bookstore and got a book called something like How to
Write and Sell Your Nonfiction Book Proposal, and I followed
the directions and that became my first published book, was
called Power, Money, Fame, Sex. The user's guide. That all
makes it sound much easier than it actually was. But
that was the question that got me started on the

(05:53):
path from law to writing.

Speaker 1 (05:55):
One of my favorite quotes about happiness is from Eleanor Roosevelt.
She says, happiness is not a goal, it's a byproduct.

Speaker 2 (06:01):
That's the whole school of thought. Yes.

Speaker 1 (06:04):
So when you say school of thought, you don't agree.

Speaker 2 (06:06):
No, And it's like, who's on the other side, It's
like John Stuart Mill, you know who am I to
disagree with these illuminaries? But I mean because the way
it's often framed to me is like, look, I don't
care about living a happy life. I want to live
a life rich with relationships and full of meaning and purpose.
And I'm like, what do you think having a happy
life would look like. I think that actually it's a
byproduct and it's an ame. I think the aim and

(06:27):
the by product are the same thing. So to me
that choice doesn't really resonate. But there are many people
who do frame it in that way. I must say, Oh.

Speaker 1 (06:37):
That's interesting. I like that. So you don't feel like
happiness is a symptom. You do feel like it can
be the goal.

Speaker 2 (06:46):
It's a symptom and an aame. It can be both.
But I think that a lot of times when I
say to people like, Okay, well you don't aim to
be happy, what do you aim for? They describe what
I would say as a happy life. It's actually a
very serious question because some people think that, like, well,
it's really morally and appropriate for me to seek to
be happier, that in a world so full of suffering,
it's not morally appropriate to try to work on my

(07:08):
own personal happiness. Or I basically have all of everything
a person should ask of life, and so if I
want to be happier, I must be a spoiled brat.
But in fact, with the research shows, and I think
if you think about the people in your own life,
you see that actually, happier people are more interested in
the problems of the world around them, and they're more
interested in trying to help. Happier people have better habits.

(07:31):
They are more likely to donate their time and their money.
They're more likely to help out if a friend or
a family member, or a colleague or a neighbor needs
a hand. They are more tolerant, they have more perspective,
they're more resilient, they're better able to be good leaders
and better team members, Like there's an energy that comes
from it. And then when we're less happy, you know,

(07:53):
it's easy to become defensive and isolated and preoccupied with
our own problems because we're not very happy. So if
it is selfish to want to be happier, we should
be selfish, if only for selfless reasons. I think a
lot of times people want to say, like, well, I'm
not going to be selfish and worry about my own happiness.
I'm going to think about the world and other people.
But in fact that's a false choice.

Speaker 1 (08:09):
You're striking something in me because I interviewed a woman
that I really admire her, both personally and professionally. There's
not a lot of people I'm going to be honest
that I've interviewed, that I get to know up close
whose lives look really good to me. I usually feel
like there's something that isn't for me, and that's okay,
it's for them. She's one of the people I really
feel like she figured out the matrix for me. And

(08:31):
she said to me at lunch one day, Danielle, you're
going to have to make a choice. You're going to
have to decide if you want to be happy or
you want to be fulfilled. I couldn't stop thinking about
it for years because I thought about what you said.

Speaker 2 (08:43):
I don't even know what that means. Well.

Speaker 1 (08:45):
I think she meant that a life of fulfillment is
a life of sometimes sacrifice, sometimes frustration.

Speaker 2 (08:52):
And is a happy life a life with no Is
that what it means to be happy? I don't think
that is what most people think a happy life would be.

Speaker 1 (08:59):
Please expand because I like what you're saying.

Speaker 2 (09:01):
What do you think she meant you chose a happy life?
What do you think that she thought you would choose?

Speaker 1 (09:06):
I think happy to her and maybe some other people
feels almost hedonistic, like the seeking of self pleasure sort
of flippant, like the happy choice is the easy choice
versus the long and hard and arduous road that is
maybe more fulfilling later.

Speaker 2 (09:21):
I think that that's a very shallow way to look
at it, because I think if you said to one
of those people, do you think that a person who
just sits on the beach always indulges in their most
fleeting desires? Do you think that they will be experiencing
a happy life? I think they would say no, probably not,
that wouldn't be a very good life. Like I don't
think that anybody actually thinks that sitting by the beach

(09:42):
all the time is a happy life now the way
that I frame it for myself and kind of maybe
to the same point that she's making, but I just
do it in my own way. But we're actually agreeing
is happiness doesn't always make us feel happy. Sometimes to
live up to our values, we have to do something
that's really impla or ask ourselves to do something we
don't want to do, or deprive ourselves as something that

(10:04):
we want. But that makes our life happier overall, even
though it maybe isn't what makes us feel good in
the moment. But is that a happy life? But I
have to say, here's the thing, as you pointed out,
I started out my career in law, and in law
you spent an entire semester arguing about the definition of contract.
To me, it's a very sterile exercise to argue over definitions,

(10:25):
because I just think that's something you can do. The
more you scratch, the more you itch.

Speaker 1 (10:29):
That's really funny. She was a lawyer as well. I
think this is so fascinating.

Speaker 2 (10:33):
But what I would say is, whatever you want, how
do you have more of it? If what you want
is fulfillment, excellent today, next week, next month, next year,
what can you do to have more fulfillment? If you
want to be happy excellent today, next week, next month,
next year, what can you do to be happy? We
don't have to agree on the term serenity, joy, bliss, contentment,
well being, life, satisfaction. Choose your own term.

Speaker 1 (10:53):
Everybody has a different set of values, so does living
in your values create happiness? Happiness is different for different people.

Speaker 2 (11:01):
One thousand percent. And I think that you just articulated
something that so many people get wrong and don't understand.
They think that there's a one size fits all solution,
and they think that somebody can just hand you like
a one pager with some bullet points. But you have
a different set of values.

Speaker 1 (11:19):
I guess that gets us to your point about habits,
which I don't know that I've spent enough time looking into,
because you said they're the invisible architecture of our days.
And I think my creative tendencies and maybe my anti
hack culture have had me not focusing on habits enough.
What is a habit that you've seen change a person's

(11:39):
life in a big way. Is there something that we
resist that actually would make us happier?

Speaker 2 (11:44):
Yes, And it's so basic, it's so boring. Everybody knows this.
It's getting enough sleep. Everything is easier when you're well rested.
But it's very easy to just stay up too late.
It's very easy to live a life which makes it
hard to fall asleep and stay asleep. May be fighting
against your chronotype because really, like forty percent of people
are mourning people, about thirty percent of people are true

(12:06):
night people, and then other people are kind of in
the middle. Something that's largely genetically determined, and it's also
a function of age. So if you're really a night person,
some night people can really shape their lives to suit that.
And I really encourage people if you are a night person,
really do try to do what you can to mold
your schedule around your natural chronotype. But sometimes you can't,

(12:28):
Like sometimes you have a baby that gets up at
five am, and you can't just say like, I'm sorry,
I'm not really at my best until ten, and so
the world kind of can make that hard. But I
mean doing what is within our power, certainly, like not
binge watching late into the night. People often think like,
I'm wide awake, But that's because we've sort of artificially
jacked ourselves up on like binge TV or work email,

(12:51):
and so we're artificially alert. Whereas if you were, you know,
reading a nineteenth century novel in bed, you would have
been asleep an hour ago. But everything is easier when
you're rested. Everything else that you will ask of yourself
is going to be easier if you are well rested.
And what research shows is that a lot of people
are chronically underslept and they don't even know it. We
adjust to it. We don't realize how impaired we are.

(13:14):
But when scientists study people, they see that they are
quite impaired, and so it's really something we're thinking about it.
But on the other hand, don't make yourself bonkers. I
think a lot of that you mentioned kind of hat culture.
One of the things research is showing is that focusing
too much on tracking your sleep, like paying attention to
every minute and you know, oh your ram cycle and

(13:34):
oh I got to do this and got to do that,
that can be counterproductive. So you got to be careful
of studying it so much. That you sort of trip
over your own feet.

Speaker 1 (13:45):
That makes a lot of sense. I had a friend
who struggled with insomnia, and I learned that at the
crux of insomnia is thinking about not sleeping. So it
is sort of this double edged sword almost. So you
have so many titles. You added a new one recently.
It's co host of the podcast since you asked, which
you're hosting with therapist Lori Gottlieb. I was so excited

(14:07):
to learn that you guys went to college together. How
special and fun is that? And how did that happen?
Like two great minds. Were you guys friends in college?

Speaker 2 (14:15):
Not really, No, we weren't actually friends in college. Then
of course later on when we connected again, it was
like this bond that we shared. Yeah, so yeah, it's
super fun.

Speaker 3 (14:24):
Right.

Speaker 2 (14:24):
You never know, like how things are going to turn
out in the future.

Speaker 1 (14:29):
Yeah, those connections I think are special. There's nothing that
can replace that history, you know.

Speaker 2 (14:33):
I think that is such a good point. Like, as
a happiness searcher, I say to people, if at all
you would ever consider going to a college reunion or
a high school reunion, even if you've never gone, really
think about going, because what you find is that you
have a special connection with people from that period of
your life that really isn't like any other kind of connection.
There is an ease to it, There's an intimacy and

(14:57):
a trust to it that is really quite surprising. And
I go to reunions all the time and sometimes there'll
be somebody like, I've never been to one before, and
I'm having so much fun I can't believe. I think
sometimes people feel like it's going to be really competitive
or they're not going to know anyone. It tends to
be and this is my experience, and I've talked to
a lot of people about reunions. People tend to be
very open. You automatically have a lot of things in common.

(15:20):
There's a kind of casual ease to it that's really nice.
And also I know a lot of people who ended
up dating and marrying people that they didn't even know
back in the day, but they reconnected with because it's
an important bond that can make it easy to get
to somebody. Are you a fan of reunions? How do
you feel about reunions.

Speaker 1 (15:36):
I'm actually laughing as you're saying this, because I've never
been to a reunion. I do have a lot of
ties from my grade school, high school, and college days.
So I do feel connected, but you're actually changing my mind.
I think I'm going to go to the next one
now and just see how I feel.

Speaker 2 (15:51):
Well. One of my secrets of adulthood and a secret
of happiness is that if you're trying to figure out
how to spend your precious time, energy or money, spend
it on relationships. And so I do think with a reunion,
you're like, oh, oh gosh, I'll have to like buy
a plane ticket, and it's going to be all this
like scheduling, and maybe you have to figure out babysitting
or you have to take a day off work. It
always just feels like, oh gosh, it's it going to
be worth it? But really, because relationships are at the

(16:14):
heart of a happy life, doing something to strengthen and
deepen those bonds that really are irreplaceable there from the past.
You know, what's that old song, Make new friends, but
keep the old. One is silver and the other is gold.
These are golden relationships. And like you say, you have
lots of connections from that time. That's wonderful. But I

(16:35):
bet if you went you would find more connections.

Speaker 1 (16:37):
Now you're making me think of the internet when you
said spend your time, money, and energy on relationships, because
I always say I work in the business of people.
Relationships really is at the crux of my business, and
so I do spend a lot of time, money, and
energy on them. And I've found really fruitful relationships that
have started online, but they don't really become special until

(17:01):
we meet in person. What does the research say about
our happiness and relationships on the internet. How has the
internet affected our relationships and happiness?

Speaker 2 (17:10):
Well, that is just a profound question and something that's
changing all the time. It's being studied all the time
because it's sort of percolating through everything. It's changing work,
it's changing family life, you know. And I think, like
all tools, it's sort of an amplifier of human nature.
Every medicine can become poisoned. So there's good things about
the Internet, but then it can also be bad. I

(17:30):
think of how I have a group of writers that
I meet with every month or so, and we just
sort of talk, shop and confide in each other, and
we sort of can ask each other questions that we
wouldn't ask anybody else, and we wouldn't be able to
meet consistently if we didn't do it through a video
call because we're too spread out. And so this is
facilitating a relationship that's really meaningful to me that wouldn't

(17:51):
otherwise be possible. Now, am I super excited when I
see these people in person? Yes?

Speaker 3 (17:56):
Do.

Speaker 2 (17:56):
I think it's really important to try to make an
effort to show up for them in person one hundred percent.
Now have you noticed this that you can talk to
somebody on video many times, but then it's almost like
you don't even recognize them when you meet them in
real life. It's like it's very hard to turn a
two D into a three D. And I think for
a person to really be in your mind and your memory,

(18:17):
if you kind of need the three D because otherwise
it's like it's kind of hard to remember the details
of their life or like was it this or that?
I don't know. I think that we always want to
push it into face to face whenever we can. And
then you think of things like grandparents who aren't able
to see their grandchildren very often, and this can be
a really important connection. It doesn't replace, but it can augment.

Speaker 1 (18:39):
Well said, I think that there's maybe you'll know better,
But I think oxytocin doesn't go off in our brain
if not all five senses are engaged, and so there's
maybe something there, because I do think it feels different
to be in person if I hug somebody, it's so different.

Speaker 2 (18:55):
It's not a substitute, but it can be an important
aid to a question of like, don't let it replace.

Speaker 1 (19:13):
I think there is so much advice out there, some great,
some questionable, even some experts I find questionable, and I
think that's part of the fun of the industry one
hundred percent.

Speaker 2 (19:25):
Well, first of all, I think the questions are always
more interesting than the answers.

Speaker 1 (19:28):
It's my life ethos scratching.

Speaker 2 (19:30):
Yes, I just think very humbly is the person who's answering.
I'm like, the question's always the best part. But I
think you're right. Part of what's fun about it is
that it helps us understand by questioning, well, what would
I say? Do I agree? It helps us see our
own values more clearly, or if we're talking about it
with somebody else, it's like it's a way to like
without sort of arguing about our own experience. It allows

(19:50):
you to say, like, oh, what would you say or
how would you have handled that? Or they got that
completely wrong, and then somebody else will be like, oh no,
I saw it, you know. So I think it is
kind of sleep fascinating because we like to think about, well,
what would.

Speaker 1 (20:03):
We say, Well, how do you personally define good advice?

Speaker 2 (20:07):
I love when something brings true. There are times when
somebody says something to you and it just brings true
and you are like, oh my gosh, that just brings
me so much clarity, you know. And often it's a
way of thinking about it, or it's framing it in
a way that you hadn't thought of, and then all

(20:28):
of a sudden you're like, oh my gosh, yes, Like
I remember a wonderful advice that I got from my
mother was my daughter was really young, and one thing
about me is I live right around the corner from
my in laws. You didn't even cross the street. They
live right around the corner. And this wasn't even advice
for my mother, but something she said allowed me to
reframe my situation. I've said to my mother, Oh, you know,
the thing that is so annoying about having a baby,
it's just to go into the pediatrician like constantly. It's
like they got to weigh them, they got to get

(20:49):
their shots, they got to get checked out. I feel
like I'm just going to the pediatrician all day long.
And she said, oh, well, I bet your mother in
law would do it, right, my Judy, because she's this
very hands on grandmother. She said, oh, I'm Judy would
do it. And I thought, oh my gosh, I don't
want Judy to do it. I want to do it.
I get to do it. And just realizing like, oh,
I'm complaining about something, but I would never give it up.

(21:10):
It completely changed my understanding of my own situation. And
you often hear people say like, you don't have to,
you get to and it's such a simple shift, but
it really can make a very big difference in how
you see a circumstance.

Speaker 1 (21:23):
Talk about a happiness reframe. I like that example.

Speaker 2 (21:25):
Oh I love a reframe.

Speaker 1 (21:27):
Okay, So we're living in a rampant self improvement age.
It's a multi billion dollar industry. I personally love self help.
A lot of the books that you see in my
background are self help books. The critics of help, or
the skeptics often say that there are more self help
books than ever, and if all this advice worked, wouldn't
there be fewer of them now? So, in an effort

(21:49):
to be discerning, who do you think we should definitely
not be taking advice from.

Speaker 2 (21:54):
Well, I think anybody who hasn't met people, because that's
not how people work. And just as a side note,
one thing that's interesting is I think a lot of
people have the idea that people who read self help
books are sort of the ones that are hanging on
by their fingernails and are like really struggling, But actually
those people don't read self help books. People who read
self help tend to be very high performing people because
they understand like how they can improve whatever their aim

(22:16):
is for themselves, and they're trying to be happier, healthier,
more productive, more creative, whatever they're trying to do. They
understand that they can change and they're very interested in
learning about it. So, actually, the people who read self
help books, but the most part, they've kind of got
it together.

Speaker 1 (22:29):
Then, to clip that from my dad, Gretchen, thank you
very much, which.

Speaker 2 (22:32):
Is obvious because you're like very successful, right, But I
think that the thing is to really try to understand
what works for you. I think there really is a
misconsumption that if something works for me, it will work
for you, or if it works for you, it will
work for me, and if it doesn't work for me,
there's something wrong with me. I'm not a grown up,
I'm lazy. There's something wrong with me. Instead of saying like,

(22:52):
there's a lot of ways to achieve our aims, and
maybe I'll try something because it worked for you, but
it didn't work for me, this is me and meditation.
People assume that I love meditation because I study happiness.
I have tried it three times, I have been on
a silent meditation retreat, I have meditated for months, and
I'm just here to say it's not a tool that
works for me. I don't dispute that it works extremely

(23:12):
well for a lot of people one hundred percent. I'm
just saying, at least at this point, it's not a
tool that works for me. And that is fine, because
I have other tools to achieve the same aims for myself.
But I think sometimes people really try to jam themselves
into someone else's model, or they insist that everybody should
fit in the model that they're advocating. In my observation,

(23:33):
that's just not the case.

Speaker 1 (23:34):
What works for you? Are you more of an active meditator?
Do you feel meditative when you walk or do yoga.

Speaker 2 (23:39):
Meditation is a discipline of the mind, and sometimes people
who meditate kind of wanted to dispute that, but I
think that you have to accept you are trying to
do something with your mind when you're meditating. Even if
you were trying to do nothing with your mind. That's
very effortful and I have a lot of focus. So
what I try to cultivate is time where I let
my mind off the leash, where I just let myself

(24:01):
daydream and follow associations like I go to the Metropolitan
Museum every day. I'm so fortunate I live within walking
distance of the met so I go every single day
and I just walk around and people are like, well,
that's meditation. I'm like, it's not meditation because I'm not
trying to do anything particular with my mind. I'm trying
to like just play or just whatever. I just do
whatever I feel like, and that is what I need,

(24:23):
and so that is the practice that works for me.
But what I'm doing is much closer to daydreaming than
it is to meditation.

Speaker 1 (24:30):
Thanks for sharing. That distinction, I feel similarly to you.
I think for me it's important to play more so
because I'm constantly focused.

Speaker 2 (24:37):
Right, And so it's not that it's not a good tool.
It just may not be a tool that is useful
for the way you and your mind fit together.

Speaker 3 (24:46):
Right.

Speaker 1 (24:46):
And also in this season maybe that changes.

Speaker 2 (24:48):
That is an excellent point, that there are seasons of
life and sometimes we need something or something works for
us very well, and that in another season it doesn't.
That's a really important point because I think sometimes people
feel like it's sort of like now and forever or never.
I can always try it again later.

Speaker 1 (25:04):
I want to get your pulse on something I've been
thinking a lot about. I get pitched a lot of
people who are experts, and I put it in quotation
marks because they'll say, like, I'm coming out with a
book about how to get over your fear, and I'll say, awesome,
what are your credentials? And they'll say, well, you know,
I worked ten years in the corporate world and I

(25:25):
was fearful every day. And I've really been thinking about
lived experience versus expertise because on the Internet there are
so many people calling themselves experts and really so much
as lived experience, and I don't discount that, but I
do find that there's a difference. Laurie's background, Lori Gottlieb,
your co host in this podcast, is in psychotherapy and

(25:47):
yours is inhabits in the happiness science. Do you have
a pet pee when it comes to Internet personalities giving
advice and presenting as experts, because I'm gonna be honest,
I sort of do.

Speaker 2 (25:57):
Yeah. I think part of it is to be honest
about what your credentials are so that people are judging
according to what you say. Like a lot of times
people I would say in a medical area will describe
themselves as doctors where they aren't medical doctors. And I'm like,
if you refer to yourself as a doctor when you're
talking about medicine, I think it's fair for people to

(26:18):
assume that you're a medical doctor. So I would make
it clear that you're not a medical doctor. If you're
not a medical doctor. Now, people may not care if
you're a medical doctor, but I feel like it's kind
of deliberately misleading in that context. So that's an example
of where I think credentials really matter. Now I have
this framework that I created called the four Tendencies framework,
which divides people polders, questioners, obligers, and rebels. And this

(26:39):
has a lot of value if you're trying to figure
out how to change a habit, or you don't understand
like why you're procrastinating, or you have a conflict with somebody,
or you're trying to get somebody else to do something,
if you don't understand, like why they're not cooperating. And
I have a quiz and like three a halfred million
people have taken this quiz. It's on my website, Gretchenmuba
dot com and people can take it and it's really
helpful and it's really predictive, and a lot of times

(27:00):
people will say to me, like my whole life now
is revealed to me, Or now I understand why I
keep having this argument with my husband or everybody on
my team, Like we can instantly tell like which we are,
and I can say to you, well, if I know
you're a questioner, I can say these three things are
probably true, and it tends to be very accurate. And
I remember I was doing an interview with somebody who's
like an academic and he was really pushing me for

(27:20):
saying like, well, you're making all these scientific claims, and
I'm like to be clear, I am making no scientific claims.
I have no laboratory with people eating marshmallows. I have
done no sixty thousand person study. I did do like
a sample to see like the distribution and the population,
but it was just to see the numbers. I sink
mine is from my observation. I find that people really

(27:44):
find this clarifying. If I explain it to you. You
can do the Game of Thrones characters, you can do
the characters from the Office, we can do movies. You
will be able to spot it in many people in
your life and for many people, it's a transformative thing
to understand. But it's purely observation. So I think it's like,
really understand what is the person's claim for what they're saying,

(28:05):
and then judge it according to that claim. I think
the problem comes when people are implying, well, I'm a
leadership expert, you know. I think then you have to say, okay,
well who have you led? Were like, oh, this is
how to like, you know, streamline teams. It's like, okay,
what teams have you streamlined? Who have you fired? How
did that go? Because I agree it's very easy to
give advice. One of the things that I do see

(28:28):
is that people will give advice and I'm just like,
you have never met a person because that is just
like not going to work, right, Like that isn't going
to work. Or maybe that'll work, but probably it won't work.
Probably the person's already tried that, and if that worked,
they wouldn't be asking the question. That's one of the
reasons that I wrote my book better than before, which
is all about habit changed because people kept saying this works.

(28:49):
Start small, tiny habits that works. I'm like, it works
for some people, but what about all the people for
whom it doesn't work, and there's a lot of them.
Or make it you do list, get clear on your priorities,
start your day with me matters the most of you.
I'm like, that works for some people, but some people
hated to do list, and if it's on a to
do list, they'll refuse to do it. What about those folks?
Or get up early, start your day at seven am,

(29:10):
you know, And I'm like, but what about the night people?
So I think you really have to judge. Who do
you think has the credentials and speaks your language too.

Speaker 1 (29:20):
I think that's why your framework actually really helps. I
took your test or your quiz.

Speaker 2 (29:25):
Okay, what's your tendency?

Speaker 1 (29:27):
I feel like you could probably guess, But I'm a questioner.

Speaker 2 (29:29):
I was gonna say. I mean, the name of your
podcast is a little bit of a tell. But yeah,
and probably like, let me guess. Are you told that
you ask too many questions? Do you sometimes suffer analysis
paralysis where it's hard to move forward because you don't
have perfect information? Or do you tend to love research?
Maybe you get pulled into the black hole of research
and it's hard to escape. Are you the kind of

(29:51):
questioner who doesn't like answering questions? This isn't all questions,
but a lot of questions are like I don't want
to have to explain myself. I did the research, Like,
just take it from me. What are you? I'm an upholder?
So should I explain? With the four rs? So people, I.

Speaker 1 (30:04):
Would love it if you don't mind. I'm glad that
you're not a questioner, so you don't mind sharing.

Speaker 2 (30:08):
Oh no, I love talking about this. Okay. What this
looks at is a very narrow aspect of your personality,
but it matters a lot. It looks at how you
respond to expectations. So we all face two kinds of expectations.
Outer expectations that's like a work deadline, Inner expectations your
own desire to keep your own New Year's resolution. So
depending on whether you meet or resist outer and inner expectations,

(30:31):
that's what makes you an upholder, a questioner, an obliger,
or a rebel. So upholders are people who readily meet
both outer and inner expectations. They meet the work deadline,
they keep the new year's resolution without much fuss. They
want to know what other people expect from them, but
their expectations for themselves are just as important. They tend
to love to do lists, scheduling. They're very good at execution.

(30:52):
They don't need a lot of supervision. So their motto is,
discipline is my freedom. Then I'm an a polder. Then
there are questioners like you, and questioners question all expectations.
They'll do something if they think it makes sense, so
they're making everything an inner expectation. If it meets their
inner standard, they will do it no problem. If it
fails their innerstandard, they'll refuse. They hate anything arbitrary, unjustified, irrational.

(31:15):
They love research, They tend to love to customize. They're
always looking for like the best, most efficient, most customized answer.
And their motto is all comply if you convince me, why.

Speaker 1 (31:31):
You read me?

Speaker 2 (31:32):
Okay, okay, right, it's ringing true. That's great. So then
there are obligers. So this is the biggest tendency for
both men and women. So you either are an obliger
or you have many obligers in your life. Obligers readily
meet outer expectations, but they struggle to meet inner expectations.
So these are the people who say, why is it
that I can always keep my promises to other people,
but I can't keep my promises to myself. They sometimes

(31:53):
think it's a problem of priority or clarity, or putting
themselves first or self esteem. But what it is is
that they need outer accountability even to meet an inner expectation.
If you want to read more, join a book group.
If you want to exercise more, join a class. Work
out with a friend who's annoyed if you don't show up.
Take your dog for a run who's so disappointed if

(32:15):
he doesn't get to go for a run. Raise money
for a charity, think of your duty to be a
role model for somebody else. There are a million ways
to create out of accountability, but you have to realize
that as an obliger, you must create out of accountability
even for an inner expectation.

Speaker 1 (32:29):
Can I ask you a quick question about the obliger?
So to build that inner sense of responsibility, you need
a buddy. Is that what I'm hearing?

Speaker 2 (32:37):
You need outer accountability? So buddy is one way, but
there's thousands of ways to create outter accountability. Let's come
back to that because there's a lot to talk about
with the bliger. So there's such a big group, but
just to round it out. So if people are thinking like,
well what am I? I don't want to leave you hanging.
So the motto of the obliger is you can count
on me, and I'm counting on you to count on me.
And then finally rebels. Rebels resist all expectations out of

(32:58):
an inter alike. They want to do what they want
to do in their own way, in their own time.
They can do anything they want to do, anything they
choose to do. But if you ask or tell them
to do something, they are very likely to resist and
typically They don't tell themselves what to do, like they
don't sign up for a ten am spin class on
Saturday because they think, I don't know what I'm going
to want to do on Saturday, and just the idea

(33:20):
that somebody's expecting me to show up is going to
bug me. So their motto is you can't make me,
and either can I. And that is the smallest group.
Rebel is the smallest, A polder my tendency is only
slightly bigger. These are kind of the extreme personality types.
Obliger is the biggest, in questioners the second largest. So
this is useful if you're thinking about like a curriculum
or clients or students or whatever. A big percentage of

(33:42):
people are going to be abligers or questioners.

Speaker 1 (33:56):
So you always see the opinion that people don't actually change.
Is that true or false?

Speaker 2 (34:01):
I think both are true. I think people don't change
and people do change. We change more than we think,
But then you know there's a lot of parts of
us that don't change. So I think we do change.
We're always making our souls. But there is also they
get what you get and you don't get upset aspect
of it too.

Speaker 1 (34:19):
I agree with you. Maybe it has to do with
your values. You are who you are, but you can
change your tendencies.

Speaker 2 (34:24):
Maybe yeah, you can change your behavior, and when you
change your behavior, you can change what your life looks like.

Speaker 1 (34:30):
When people call in to your show, what seems to
be the relationships they have the most trouble with family?
Romantic or friendship?

Speaker 2 (34:36):
Family?

Speaker 1 (34:37):
Have you noticed any trends in the types of questions
that you've gotten over the years. Do you think what
people are asking advice about is revealing something about our culture?

Speaker 2 (34:47):
I think that the issues related to work from home
are something that just didn't exist, you know before. It
feels like it's been going on a long time, but
just in terms of sort of like our experience, it's
very new, and so there's a lot of issues related
to that that are kind of unprecedented.

Speaker 1 (35:02):
I wouldn't have thought about that. That's a good point.
If someone could only follow one piece of advice that
you give for the rest of their life, one that
you think would have the biggest impact, what would it.

Speaker 2 (35:13):
Be Accept yourself and expect more from yourself. So this
goes back to your earlier question, like do we change
It's like, on the one hand, you want to show
compassion for yourself, Accept yourself, don't try to live up
to some fantasy self. We are who we are to
send a group, but then also expect more from yourself.
Push yourself, get out of your comfort zone. Grow, so

(35:34):
both are true. Accept ourselves and also expect more from ourselves.

Speaker 1 (35:37):
Speaking of expecting more, this is actually perfect for my
next question. There's a saying that I really love that
self esteem comes from doing esteemable acts and felt so
simple and so profound the first time I heard it.
The idea that our confidence is built one small action
at a time is something that resonates for me. What
is an estimable act that gives you, Gretchen a big boost?

Speaker 2 (36:01):
Well, first of all, the research backs that up, so
that's a very sound piece of wisdom. I really do
try to connect people. I try to, you know, make
useful introductions to people, whether it's giving people business, whether
it's setting people up, whether it's thinking people could tuck
shop together productively. I have started many groups. I organize

(36:26):
things like reunions. I try to help bring people together.

Speaker 1 (36:30):
That's so cool that your octopus of relationships is your gift.

Speaker 3 (36:34):
You know.

Speaker 2 (36:35):
I don't know that it's a gift because I know
people who do it so much better than I do it.
But it's something that I really work on, and it
kind of comes hard to me because I'm always just like,
oh gosh, I don't want to send another email, or like,
how do you spell that person's last name again? Or
you know, now I have to like describe what each
of them in a sentence. So I don't think I
do it effortlessly. I have a friend who just connects
people effortlessly, but he's like, why does everybody know Kim Scott?

(36:57):
Like everybody does. It's like a magic. But I work
at it. So in that way, it's something that I
esteem because I put the effort into it, because I
really value it, even though i'd sort of rather not,
so I think that makes it feel more estimable in
my mind than things that maybe would come even more naturally.

Speaker 1 (37:14):
Thanks for your honesty, I like that. I want to
get your advice on people's questions. So the first one is.

Speaker 4 (37:21):
So I'm getting married soon, but I've been struggling with
how some of the people that I feel like I've
poured a lot of love into for some of their
milestones either have or haven't really shown up for mine.
I want to meet people where they are, but when
it comes to big life moments like a wedding, it's
kind of painful when the people you've supported don't really

(37:42):
show up for you in the same way. So I
guess my question is what's a healthy mindset for that?
And then how do we balance acceptance and expectations and relationships.

Speaker 2 (37:52):
This is such a good question, and that last line
is so wise because it's acceptance and expectation, because really
the problem is that there's this expectation that the people
will respond in a way that they're not and just
a few observations. Is earlier, we were talking about season
of life, and one of the things in many people's
experiences of weddings is there's a wedding season. And when

(38:15):
you are in a season of life where you have
like a lot of time and energy free, you might
have shown up for a friend in a really big way,
but then by the time they're getting married, maybe your
life have gotten pulled into a really demanding job, or
maybe you have a baby, or you just have a
lot more demands on your time. And it's not that
you don't have the same level of love, and maybe

(38:36):
you wish you could do these things, but you're just
not in a place where you can do it. And
I think understanding that sometimes people's gestures match their feelings.
And then also one thing that I experience is some
people love making big gestures. They love buying gifts, they
love planning celebrations, they love writing a toast, like they

(38:57):
love to do that. And if you love to do that,
that's an important way for you to express yourself. But
it may be that the people that you love don't
share that, Like it's not the way that they want
to express themselves, and it isn't a reflection of their feeling.
It's just more of a reflection of like, are they
like this with everyone? You know what I mean? It's like, well,

(39:17):
they didn't write me a rhyming toast at my wedding,
but I noticed they didn't write a rhyming toast anybody
else either. Like I have a friend who loves to
give gifts and she would exchange gifts all the time,
but I'm like, I don't like exchanging gifts. I don't
know what to buy, I don't like running errands. I
feel like I have so much stuff. Do they even
need it or want it, Like to me, it's something
she loves, but it's not something that's meaningful to me.

(39:38):
But is she a better friend to my mind? No?
To her mind, maybe so, because it's a really important
gesture for her, But like in our friendship, we've sort
of stopped exchanging gifts because I know she would like
to do it, but it's not something that I am
going to cooperate with. And so it may be that
your expectations are just too high. There is a sense

(40:01):
of reciprocity that people often have. It's interesting, I see
this just minor tangent. My next book is going to
be about the empty nest as a worst reckoning of adulthood.
And you see this sometimes with parents. They will do
really extravagant, thoughtful gestures for a child, like I'm going
to write a long, thoughtful letter twice a week, or
I'm going to like send these like really elaborate care packages.

(40:24):
And they think, oh, I'll do that, and then my
child will like flood me with attention and love and
appreciation for this grand gesture. But a lot of times
their kids are like thanks, like they don't really care.
And so if you're going to do that. It's like,
do it for yourself because that's how you love to
show your feelings, but try to manage your expectations because
people don't always respond at the same level.

Speaker 1 (40:47):
There's also this element of something left unsaid. I had
a friendship expert on the podcast a few years ago.
I asked her for advice because I said, my bandwidth
is solow and I don't feel like I'm being the
friend I want to be in my friendship are so
important to me. And she said I would just send
a video message or a text message to your friend
and say, I am aware that I'm not showing up

(41:10):
the way that I want to right now, and I
just want you to know it's not a reflection I
love you so much, and just say the thing.

Speaker 2 (41:16):
That's a great suggestion, Just come right out and say,
but see, here's the problem though this person wants to receive.
That's great advice for you. And maybe if she got that,
she would be comforted because she would be like, oh,
it's not personal. It's like, oh my gosh, my friend
has a new baby who's really cranky, and like she
just you know, can barely take a shower, let alone
plan a bachelorette party for me. But it's hard when

(41:38):
you are wanting that, you feel like, well, I've taken time,
I've gone to all these links for you, and so
now I'm feeling very left out and neglected.

Speaker 1 (41:48):
Do you think it's worth a conversation or is it
too hard to bring up?

Speaker 2 (41:52):
I think it's worth a conversation, but I think that's
a very hard conversation to have. You know, a lot
of themes are the hard conversation. If you can use humor,
that is very next level, but it can make it
easier to say and hear difficult things and try to
do it face to face. But if you're like, hey,
what is up, Like you know, three years ago at

(42:13):
this time, like we were in Nashville, have an amazing time,
Like where's my plan? Like whatever it would be, so
that you can broach it in a way that someone
can hear that without becoming defensive, and then maybe say
like whatever it is. It's really good to talk about things,
but it's really hard. It's really hard to say to somebody,
my feelings are really hurt because I did so much

(42:35):
for you when it was your turn, and now you're
just not paying attention to me, that's a hard thing
to say.

Speaker 1 (42:40):
Okay, the next question is.

Speaker 5 (42:41):
Something I'm struggling with right now, even though I know
it sounds a little silly. How do you find closure
after losing a job? I gave years of loyalty and effort,
built what I thought were real relationships, and then it
just ended. No explanationations, no goodbye, no chance to say

(43:02):
my piece. How do you let go of the anger
and resentment when there's no closure?

Speaker 2 (43:09):
Oh, that is really hard.

Speaker 3 (43:10):
You know.

Speaker 2 (43:10):
We were talking about reframing earlier. So one thing that
you might do is just sit down for yourself and say, like,
what did I gain from this experience? What was it
for me? What was the value of it for me?
Because that might give you a sense of closure within yourself, like, Oh,
I really learned how to speak in front of a group,
I really learned a ton about this industry. I got
experience managing a team. What is it so that you

(43:34):
feel like, well, there is closure for me, even if
I didn't get closure with the other people. And also
if you feel like the relationships are real, reach out
to the other people. It's extremely valuable to have relationships
with people as we go through life, and so the
fact that you're not working with people anymore, maybe they're
not going to be like your best friends and you're
going to be going out or having them over to

(43:54):
your house once a month. But maybe there was something
silly that you all shared, Like there was some television
show you would always talk about. You're like, oh, my gosh,
you know, let's have a finale party and get together
and catch up and we'll all watch this, you know,
something to keep those relationships alive, or you know, the
occasional coffee or like, oh this made me think of
you text. So it's not like you walked out the

(44:14):
door and everything just vanished, but that you do have
this sense of ongoing relationship and having gained in skills
and experience from it. It is really hard when you
want from the organization something that it is not giving
you that you feel like is owed. So it's how
do you create the sense of closure within yourself.

Speaker 1 (44:35):
I think you touched on something that I hear a
lot of my peers talk about millennials in particular feel
I think when they work at large corporations that they
gave so much and when it ends, did anyone even care?
So there's like a reckoning happening with corporate culture. I
think gen Z probably has felt that too.

Speaker 2 (44:56):
You see a lot of research that this sense of
like dedicating yourself to an organation is not nearly as
intense as it was in the past for exactly that reason.
But you know, another thing that can be a useful
exercise can be imagine your future self. Let's say like
a year or three years in the future, and write
yourself a letter about like, why is it that it
was really good that this played out the way that

(45:18):
it did. I had a boss one time where no
matter what happened, no matter how bad something was that happened,
he would say, wait a minute, this works for us,
and he was able to spin a tail that by
the end we were like, this is amazing. This really
works for us. You can say, like, why in the end,
am I maybe better off? What is the future that
I can imagine for myself where really like this works

(45:39):
for me? And that can be another way to try
to put it into a context that feels more positive.
But I don't want to be pollyannish because you might
be like, hey, you know, actually it was really bad.
I lost my health insurance but it is something that
can be a very helpful way to refrain.

Speaker 1 (45:53):
I don't find it Pollyanna because it happened, so like
you have to make the best of the situation.

Speaker 6 (45:58):
That's a good point next step.

Speaker 7 (46:13):
I get so paralyzed when it comes to the big
life shaping choices, like whether to leave a relationship that's
mostly good but missing something essential, or whether to take
a new job that excites me but terrifies me financially.
The little decisions I can make quickly, but the big
ones feel like they carry the weight of my whole future.
How do you know when to leap, when to wait,

(46:34):
and how to live with the fact that you'll never
know what the other path might have been?

Speaker 2 (46:37):
Yes, sliding doors. Well, one thing I will say, a
big sort of initial thing is often people imagine that
if they made the perfect decision, they would feel no regret.
So if I just think about enough, if I ruminate
about this enough, if I taken enough factors, I will
make the perfect decision and I will feel one hundred
percent that I made the right choice. But the fact

(46:58):
is a lot of times in life it is an
app lin an orange, and you will feel regret because
whatever you do. If you move to Baltimore, you can't
move to California, And if you become a lawyer, you're
not going to become a doctor, and you may feel
regret for that, but that doesn't mean that it's not
the right choice. And so I think accepting that there
is no regret free decision sometimes releases people from just

(47:20):
like this constant loop because they're trying to avoid any regret.
I mean, I remember somebody who was saying, like I
was pregnant, I found out I was having a boy,
and I felt really bad because I felt really disappointed, like,
of course I'm really happy to be having a boy,
but feel disappointed. And her doctor said, well, of course
you're disappointed because before you knew you could have a
boy and a girl, but now you know that you're

(47:40):
having one, and that means that you're not having the other.
And so it's not a reflection on the decision. It's
just the fact that one sliding door precludes the other
sliding door. So don't think that you're going to get
out of thinking about the road not taken. But here
are two things that I often will invoke when I'm
trying to make a really tough decision, and the first
is to choose the bigger life, because no one knows

(48:01):
what the bigger life is for you except you. Because
should you get a dog, there are many good reasons
to get a dog. There are many good reasons not
to get a dog. What for you is the bigger life?
Should you stay in the big city with all of
its excitements and opportunities, or should you move to your
hometown where you have family and friend and a network
around you who can say what is the bigger life
for you? And so I think this is a really

(48:23):
helpful question because a lot of times when people say
that they have a perfectly balanced pros and cons. If
you say, well, which is the bigger life, they instantly
know what the bigger life is. It sort of gets
you out of that pros and cons framework. So that's
a really helpful question. Another kind of way to think
about it is to step into the future. A lot
of times you're thinking, well, should I do this or
should I do that? And you're like, well, which one
would allow me to step into the future. Because one

(48:45):
of the things that's hard is change. We're very captured
by inertia. It's hard to change the future. And uncertainty
can be very intimidating, and so when you think to yourself, like, well,
what would allow me to step into the future. A
lot of times that kind of again puts a different
spotlight on what you're doing. So you're like, well, should

(49:06):
I keep working in my job really hard and like
really trying to get a promotion and make it work.
Or should I go back to school and get a
different degree, we'll step into the future. I don't know
which of those courses would be stepping into the future, right,
I could see it argument for both of them, but
you might really have an idea. Oh really, the future
is staying with this company and getting the promotion, or
the future is getting the degree. These are just helpful

(49:28):
for some reason. They allow people to evaluate their decisions differently.

Speaker 1 (49:32):
My whole ethos is if you want better answers, ask
better questions.

Speaker 2 (49:35):
Well that's so questioner. I love it.

Speaker 1 (49:38):
But I love those two questions because we're constantly seeking,
but we don't know the questions to ask ourselves. I
love those questions. Thank you for sharing those. Okay. The
next one is I.

Speaker 3 (49:48):
Keep telling myself compromise is part of being in a
long term relationship. But sometimes it feels like I'm betraying
who I am. How do you tell the difference between
healthy compromise and slowly disappearing inside your own life?

Speaker 1 (50:01):
Wow, that's a good one.

Speaker 2 (50:02):
That is a really good question. And it's interesting because
on the since Us podcast that we were talking about,
we had a question where it was a young married
couple and the wife wanted her parents from out of
town to stay in their apartment with them the guest room,
and the husband was like, wow, you know, it kind
of crowds my space to have them if they stay

(50:22):
like more than a few days, and I really want
them to stay in a hotel. I mean, just for
myself personally, I'm in exactly that situation. And I just
said to my husband, like, I really don't want to
compromise on this. This is super important to me. This
goes right to my values. So I'm really asking you
to defer to my wishes here because this is really important.
And so we didn't compromise. And so I think sometimes

(50:45):
your value you do have to say like, this is
really my value and talk about it now. Sometimes there
is a clash of values where it's like okay, and
then you have to figure out, well, how do you
negotiate a class of values. But when you feel like
you're disappearing into your own life, that starts to sound
like accommodation. That is happening without an open discussion of
what values are in play or what someone really cares about.

(51:07):
And I think you owe it to other people to
say this really matters to me. I think what happens
a lot of times is that people expect others to
read their minds and to think, well, of course they
know that it's a huge pain for me to host Thanksgiving,
and so of course, like, don't they get that this
is like a huge annoyance for me, and like other

(51:27):
people should take a turn, and it's not fair to
ask me to do it, right, They're thinking that. But
if you say cheerfully, oh I'm happy to do it,
then others are not going to rush to your side
and say, oh, it's not fair. They're gonna be like, oh,
she likes to do it, she's good at it, Like
let her do it again, you know. And so I
think sometimes it's surprisingly hard to enunciate our values for

(51:49):
ourselves and then to articulate them to other people, and
then to give them a chance to like have a
conversation about it, because sometimes people will disagree and then
you have to decide, like how do we find our
way through this.

Speaker 1 (52:00):
I like your distinction between values and maybe virtues or preferences,
because maybe the person who's value it's rubbing up against
gets that one. But if it's a clash of values,
You're right, that's confusing.

Speaker 2 (52:12):
That's a really good point. It's sunny because with things
like those, people will often tell like, well, I'm sure
your parents would be much more comfortable in a hotel,
and I'm like, look, my dad slept on a blow
up mattress in our living room, so like this is
our choice because that's about like, oh, well this would
be more comfortable, and I'm like, no, this is a core.

Speaker 1 (52:27):
Value, right, there's different family dynamics.

Speaker 2 (52:29):
It's a different family dynamic, and not to say that
this is the right choice for everyone, but like this
is just someplace where I put my hand in the
air and said, this is really important to me. And
so it's hard. I mean, you know, two people, You've
got to deal with all kinds of things, like how
tidy do we keep our house? Some people are neat
freaks and they can't relax if things aren't tidy, and
everybody else is like, if you want to run around

(52:51):
and tidy everything up, like be my guest. But I
don't think that it's necessary to live that way. It's like, Okay,
we got to figure that out. That's a very common clash,
but it's part of a relationship.

Speaker 1 (53:01):
Okay. The next one is write up your alley, Gretchen.
When you know exactly what you need to do to
be happier, healthier, for example, go to bed earlier, stop
doom scrolling, but you actively choose not to do it.
What is the first mental strategy you can use to
stop self sabotaging and simply start doing the thing.

Speaker 2 (53:19):
Find out your tendency, because the first thing I would
say is what is your tendency? And you're probably going
to say, I'm an obliger and I'm really trying to
rely on inner accountability to get myself to stop that.
And I would say, and that is why you were
not succeeding. Now you have to have a form of
outer accountability. There's a lot of ways to get out
of accountability for all those things. But maybe you're a rebel,
and if you're a rebel. Then I would say, well,

(53:40):
you got to go about it a completely different way.
You got to do it in a rubble way. Or
if you're a question or sometimes questioners have issues with
things like this, I'm like, you got to lean into
your question or self. So I would say with something
like that, I always think, first look at it from
a tendency perspective, because that is probably going to point
the way forward to you so that you can.

Speaker 1 (53:59):
Change that behave well said. Everybody has to take your quiz.

Speaker 2 (54:02):
Yes, Gretchen Reuben dot com slash quiz Gretchen.

Speaker 1 (54:05):
I wish you great health and great happiness. I'm so
grateful for your time today. This was so fun.

Speaker 2 (54:11):
This is so fun. Thank you for all these amazing questions.
I would expect nothing less from such a questioner. Thank you,
thank you.

Speaker 1 (54:24):
Okay, you know what time it is. Today's a good day.
To have a good day. I'll see you next week.