James Taylor

Legendary singer/songwriter James Taylor drops by to talk about his life and extraordinary body of work.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Question. Love Suprema is a production of I Heart Radio.
Here we go, Suprema Suprema, roll call, Suprema Suprema, roll call,
Suprema Suprema, roll call, Sema Suprema roll call. It's ladies night. Yeah,

(00:24):
let's celebrate. Yeah, I'm gonna get down one. Yeah on
James Taylor Suprema, roll called, Suprema Suprema roll call. My
name is Sugar. Yeah, I'm the engineer. Yeah, and I
love great music. Yeah, That's why I'm here. Surema Suma,

(00:49):
roll call, Suprema sub Frema roll call. My name's Boss Bill. Yeah.
And I ain't no sucker. Yeah, what are we doing?
Roll call? Brother Trucker m roll call Fremo roll call Yeah.

(01:12):
And James tail Um Yeah, I ain't no lame, no
fire rain, roll call, Sma, roll call. I'm James. Yeah,
I came up here today. Yeah, I guess I'm here
for you. I'm ready. Roll roll call, roll car, roll call,

(01:42):
so Frema, Fremo, roll call, Prema Frema roll call. Nice.
All right, we got through that, uh just barely know, right,
Ladies and gentlemen, we have less than an hour to

(02:03):
unravel the complex artistry of over fifty years. That is
our guest today and probably one of my favorite singers ever.
I'll just say I want to want a personal note
to be selfish on the show that has my name
in it. Um, James Taylor is his voice? Uh, In

(02:25):
my opinion is probably hands down. Uh. I believe one
of the most beautiful, soothing Warren sounds that I can recall. Um,
it's kind of my trusted blanket. You know, it's a
favorite uncle, my favorite teacher in school. Um. And yeah,

(02:47):
this is coming from a guy who also thinks that
hr from Bad Brains is equally as soothing. I'm sorry,
but I'm gonna take it as a compliment. Yeah, James
Taylan a h army. Um. I'll be the first to
admit that. Um. Well, one, I'm probably the only media personality,

(03:10):
UM that doesn't care if that song was about you.
She's already said that it wasn't about him. Well, I know,
I know, but you know, mainly mainly mainly because I
think I pegged it in my head. Um, with a
voice that soothing, I'd never bothered to even look under

(03:31):
the hood. I don't know if I subconsciously didn't want
to look under the hood because it's just like that's
my trusted blanket. Um and in the week and a
half of preparation that I decided to search under the
James Taylor hood. Yikes, Um, I was wrong. And you

(03:51):
know his his newest book break shot or his audioboo breakshot, yes,
or audible exclusive of It's a musky here for every
artist I've ever worked with. This is literally like I'm
not even separating myself. It's probably I needed this too,
um It. It dissects the first twenty one years of

(04:14):
his life and which is kind of an understatement to say,
is a rather dark journey. Um which now really has
me to the point where I'm just obsessed with entertainers
or comedians or or actors or whoever that managed to
rouse me in a way, in a way of like

(04:36):
ladies and gentleman James Taylors. Here, everyone's looking at each
other like it's like, we got we got, we got
fifty one minutes left. Thank you for coming on the show.
You know, you know the specialist is Zara is here
And it's not even a political figure is there one
of my managers? Only here whenever someone's here to discussed

(05:00):
politics and how how are you. I'm good, I'm good. Yeah,
you know, it's uh, it's like uh, um, we've got
a couple of of projects that are coming out at
the same time, and um, a tour starting up in

(05:21):
in April, so you know, it's a very like a
it's a busy season, and it's it's kind of a
promotional season, you know, and where you take your stuff
to market. And that's always been you know, that's always
been uh, a kind of a difficult passage for me.

(05:42):
Will you make a project, you know over in this case,
it took us a couple of years to make this
album and uh, and then you take it by its
little hand and lead it into the marketplace, you know,
and and launch it. And that's that's always uh sort
of a can be a you know, a confusing process,
but but it's one that I've I've gotten used to.

(06:04):
And not only that, it's become much much better as
time has gone by. I'm talking to people almost uh
completely who I who I admire and respect, and and
that makes all the difference, you know. I Mean back
in the beginning, you sort of go to Rolling Stone

(06:27):
and hope that some intern who is interviewing you you know,
cutting your teeth on on your uh your project and
reviewing it. Uh, that that could be really uh just
just made it a daunting kind of a process to
get into. But but you know, I've I've been feeling

(06:49):
really good about this this particular project and the people
I've met and talked to about it. So even this
late in the game, when you create product, you still
go through the the process of it's critical reception, it's

(07:13):
how it fares well with your fan base and whatnot.
You still have those absolutely, um, you know it it's
still a part of the work. It's it's where you
you know, music used to happen. Um, well, it used
to happen in the street, and it used to happen

(07:33):
in the in the on the farm. But it used
to happen in the church and in the court, you know,
those who are or in academia somehow, you know. And
I think that having music exists in a commercial context
where it's sailable, um is a better choice. That's better

(07:57):
than the court or the church in my opinion. It uh,
it's not better than essentially folk music, which is which
is sort of free, but it's definitely a step in
the right direction um to have it, to take it
to market in order to get people to hear it.
So when you're in your formative years at least for

(08:20):
like your first five or six albums, are you obsessively
looking to see like do you take a Lester Bangs
seriously or even a Crista Gal or I'm trying to
figure out like who is the the pitchwork of his day,
like the the critic that or John Landew, John Lando

(08:43):
or Hillman out in Los Angeles or yeah, yeah, so
that that would mean something to you, absolutely, I mean
just inasmuch as it it either pushes the project along
and gets it out there for people to hear or
it doesn't. That was always the priority. In fact, I

(09:05):
made such ruinous uh deals and decisions early on um
mostly due to bad advice that that I never really
saw records as a source of income. They never were,
so so I always just looked at it as a
way to support touring and also as a way to
just get my my thing out there, to get my

(09:27):
art out there. Well, that's weird to hear because I
thought I was the only artist that was like record
sales whatever, like when we toured. That's how I'll make
my money, and the records are like the flyer that
you advertise, Hey I'm coming to town, that sort of thing. Well, well,
it's also the medium that we work in. If you're
a recording artist, you and I think that it's something
I've gotten better at over time. I've I cringe when

(09:51):
I listened to my early stuff, but um, but over time,
I've gotten better at recording and gotten closer to what
I hear in my mind when I when I think
about it too, I'm just curious what James Taylor album
makes you crick? Yeah? I was. I'm kind of concerned.
I'm like, oh, please, don't let it be one of

(10:12):
my favorites. Yeah, I'm like like for you, like, what's
what's your like? Yeah? What what album that? Every fan like,
oh my god, oh my god, you're just like whatever, Well,
the first one, the James the One record. But even then,
it's like, if I recalled correctly, you've spoken a few
times that you know you were creating that right when

(10:35):
the Beatles were creating in the White album. Yeah, White album, correct,
So like whenever the Beatles weren't you tried in studio,
you were there, that's right. We were they let you
RaSE the board and just yeah, they did. Uh. I guess.
There weren't digital cameras in those days, so you you
you couldn't take a picture of it and expect to
have it the next day polaroid, I guess. But uh no,

(11:00):
they never actually thought about that. Man, did you realize
that you were in in in the eye of probably
the most celebrated creative storm in music history. I did.
I was aware of that in a in a sort
of But you know, in those days, I really I lived,
you know, a day at a time, maybe a week

(11:21):
at a time. I just didn't I didn't really expand
beyond what was sort of in the room, you know,
um uh it all. Yes, it it seems surreal to
to have been you know, a year prior to that,
I'd been here in New York and my band had failed,
and I'd sort of limped back to North Carolina to

(11:43):
lick my wounds, and you know, uh and then lo
and behold, a year later, I'm I'm auditioning for for
Paul McCartney and George Harrison. So it was on one
level level unbelievable. But but you know, I just accepted
it as as what was happening now, you know, how

(12:04):
did it even word about you get to to Paul
and George? Were you the first artist signed to? Yes? Okay,
I was the first artist signed and and my lucky
break was that. Um, my main partner actually through most
of my musical life has been a guitarists from from

(12:24):
New York lives in Los Angeles, now named named Danny
Kortchmark Coach and Coach had backed up Peter and Gordon
Um a sort of British invasion group like Chad and Jeremy.
They had had a World Without Love was a song
of Theirs and uh Knight and Rusty Armor, um, you know,

(12:47):
sort of a British novelty duo, you know, very very
much British invasion sort of mold but um. And then
the year after that, I had been in the band
with Coach here in New York. So I called Coach
after I got to London. I said, if you still
got a number for Peter Asher And it turned just

(13:07):
thinking that he might have some contacts in the music
business in London. And as it turned out, he had
just signed on his head of A and R for
this brand new label that the Beatles were starting Apple Records,
so he was basically looking for people to sign. And
it couldn't have been it couldn't have been better time.

(13:28):
It was just you know, it really threaded the needle
and the and the window was very short for you know.
I was signed, Billy Preston was signed, Mary Hopkins Uh
um yea m j Q. Yeah, Okay, that's amazing. I

(13:50):
didn't realize that a group called bad Finger and a
guy named uh Jackie Lomax. But um, the five or
six there seven acts that were signed within the ten
month period that Apple was actually open to two other people.
That's that is to say, before Alan Klein came in
and just shut it down. Um, it was I'm sure

(14:14):
it was hemorrhaging money, but I'm I'm also sure that
it was just a unique opportunity you know too. And
they gave me that that first chance. So that's that's
how I ended up. Um. I got my little demo
real to real tape to Peter Asher. He I played

(14:35):
him a number of songs and and he said, let's
go up and and see if we can play this
for a beatle up. I love how casual that comes. Right, Yeah,
let's just see if the beatles here, and the way
Peter remembers that the day we went up to I
got my guitar and my little cardboard case and I

(14:55):
follow him up to, uh this building in in baker
Stweet in London where they're temporary first offices were in
and he uh sort of installs me in a room
and says, is there a beatle in the house? Leans
out into the hall and that's amazing. That's a good man.

(15:18):
And I say, I say it's as Peter remembers it,
because because I myself, the whole day is just like blurred.
I mean I was I was like made for one
tan and plugged into two twenty. You know, I was
totally shocked. You know, um, well, okay, we brought Peter Asher,

(15:38):
who's such a at least I consider it. I mean,
what would you say that Asher is like one of
the Mount Rushmore figures of what I think of when
I think of the California sound or definitely that, So

(15:59):
how what what is that description? Because if someone that's
not familiar with your work, like I don't know how
your album's got in my household, but they were there
because and it wasn't like I mean, now they have
titles for it suft rock, yacht rock, or whatever they

(16:21):
want to call it. But yacht rock that's good, I know, well,
you know it's it's made this sort of niche, comedic,
you know, reference comeback thing, but that's made it cool again,
like stuff that again a Lester Bangs or Krista Gal
like I'm I'm better than this type of whatever, like

(16:41):
now it's worship and revered and those things. But how
did you, impeter like figure out this this plan to
sort of is it folky? Is a country? Is a
blues leaning? Is it? You know? How would you describe

(17:02):
the sound that YouTube molded that I felt really defined
the next ten years of what pop music would be,
the California sound if you will. Well, yeah, you know
what I was. I was just playing on the guitar
the songs that I had written, and counting on a

(17:25):
um a sort of community of players um Russ Kunkle
on the drums, um coach guy named lees Clar playing
the bass, Carol King on the on the piano. I
basically was, but but essentially I was counting on them
to be you know, to do head arrangements of my

(17:46):
guitar arrangements, you know, so that you sort of pass
it on to another musician, usually a keyboard player. Uh.
But basically you write out of just a simple chord
chart and pass it around and count it off. You know.
The strange thing about well, actually it's still the case,

(18:07):
uh that often the time when the song is recorded
for for posterity is the first time it's played. You know,
that's an odd thing that you don't yeah, that you
don't get to or or even the seventh take. But
the point is you you haven't had a chance to
tour it for twenty performances and sort of you know,
nail it down and refine it. And uh, I've always

(18:30):
thought that would be a good way to go. Okay,
So the question I have about Sweet Baby Jeames is
how do you have an active record deal and you're
still homeless, like or at least I've heard you mentioned
a few times that for that first album you're kind

(18:51):
of just nomad, like crashing on couches and how like
was money just not available back then? Or like how
did you well enough money was you know? Uh? And
I didn't have a place to stay in Los Angeles,
so Peter had a house at the corner of Olympic

(19:14):
and Highland and uh and you know, I just would
crash there with with at Peter's house while while we
were recording in Sunset Sound. But I started building a
house for myself in in uh I think in in

(19:34):
the back in the woods on on Martha's Vineyard Island
where my family had had sort of fetched up because
my folks had taken me there and had taken all
of us there in the summertime from North Carolina. My
mom was, um you know, she she really was culture
shocked by moving to North Carolina and and where my

(19:54):
dad was worked with the University of North Carolina. Um,
so she wanted to bring us up north every every
and try to keep our sort of Yankee roots to
the extent we could. And and uh so my family
all gravitated towards that place as being the happiest place,
you know, and and we ended all ended up living there.

(20:17):
But your your question was about being homeless. I suppose
that it was sort of rootless. Okay, no, no, yeah,
let me clarify. I wasn't like that he was sleeping
on the street corps like it was all this guy,
But uh, I don't know. In my mind, I just
feel like there's a certain level of comfort that one

(20:43):
has to have, at least, I think, in order to
find their creative space. Where I've been in a few
situations in which if my personal life is in shambles,
that affects my creative output. And so am I. You know,
to hear you here describe that you were crashing on

(21:05):
couches and you didn't have a house, I'm I'm wondering, like,
is the the rest of the stress of of of
not having roots pun intended? Um, does that affect your
creative output or not? You know, I never thought about it,
but I think you're right. If I can think back
to any two particular creative periods, it's always been a

(21:29):
sort of protected period during the time that I'm that
I'm writing, you know, And I think you're right. I
think it does take that. Um, the songs for Sweet
Baby James, that that first Warner Brothers album, that which
you you know rightly describe as sort of the the

(21:49):
beginning of the California sound. But you know, UM back
to that question for a second. Um. You know, Peter,
I and I didn't really discuss the sound. We just
you know, as I said, I just introduced the songs
to these other players, and we played it the way
we heard it, you know, and it and and recorded

(22:10):
it it. It really wasn't directed in in in any
real sense other than just the the you know, the
sort of template the form of my playing it on
the guitar. Were you somewhat aware of what the marketplace
was and how somewhat different than the marketplace that you

(22:36):
were that this output was presenting itself. I'm not saying
it was radically radically different, but you know, I feel
as though, you know, I definitely uh distanced myself and
identified myself as being apart from music business. You know,

(22:57):
to me, music business was still Dean Martin playing at
the sands, you know in Las Vegas. Well, in fact,
Dean Martin was a great singer and and and did
some great songs, but at the time we identified that
as being another generation. That's right, So you want to

(23:19):
avoid the tencil tencil town. Yeah, I swore I'd never
play Las Vegas. You know, we I got two Grammys.
I didn't show up. I said, oh oh, even Grammy
was like, that's so funny, and how each artist Okay,
I'm slowly discovering that every clique were people that I

(23:40):
would think were the establishment. They have their I'm sort
of yeah, I'm above that, which is weird because not
like I see you as the establishment, but even now
you're saying like in your way, like I'm rebelling against that.
And and we very much wanted to distance our else
from it. And I mean we uh that's that was

(24:04):
the sense in the you know, the zeitgeist and the
Los Angeles at the time, was was that we belonged
to a different generation and uh, you know, a sort
of um, the sort of demographic bulge you know that

(24:24):
happened um after the war, that baby boom bulge in
the population when it came to college age. It it's
sort of it manifested in a way with with FM
radio too. It sort of started to and the Beatles
and Dylan and you know, I wanted to ask, I'll
let you give to you a question. I just wanted
to say, hippies. But that's the thing though, But I

(24:47):
feel for coming into the seventies though, what I felt
like there was this sort of air at least with
like with with Neil Young's uh, after the after the
gold Rush, that there was this whole disillusionment with with
all the lofty ideas of what the hippies were trying

(25:07):
to present in sixty eight. It was kind of more
of a cynical thing, even though you didn't go that route,
Like was this your response to it, like just to
be the establishment, Like you know, I'm I'm a serious
singer songwriter. I'm not right. No. Um uh. That was

(25:28):
part of it too, is that there was nothing serious
about it, you know. It was like, um, it didn't
have any pretensions. You know, Wow, was was the was
the idea? You know? I mean, yes, I was judgmental
of other music, but you know I realized now that
to be judg mental of Frank Sinatra because he's he's

(25:50):
my parents generation, you know, is that's absurd, you know.
So uh, you know, I've I've come around to to
understanding that that those I've got an album coming out
of you know, American songbook type tunes arrange for the
guitar called called American Standard, which is also the name

(26:13):
of a toilet manufacturer. Thank you for bringing that up.
Next to the Beatles, I'll probably say that, uh, soul
music interpretations of your songs are probably the most interesting.

(26:35):
That's really how I got to introduce to it. So
don't let me tonight, do I was gonna say my
obsession with Oscar Meyer. I mean, I was three when
three plus three came out. I thought it was bologney.
I thought it was about lunch mee Ronald Asley, the
way he announcia his word don't let men? Yes, Oh god?

(27:02):
Why did I say? Look, there's just no one knows
what boloney is anymore. So yeah, they do, they plant baseball.
Wait a minute, we're not just think He was like,

(27:24):
my whole point. My whole point, though, was were you
aware all of how radical the soul music interpretations of
your songs were like? Because to me, even though yes,
I love your version of Firing Rain, but the Osley

(27:46):
Brothers have this really notorious eight minute version of the
song that almost wound up on every mixtape I've ever
given a girl. So and on top of that, are
you rather sagrined that for those that don't know the

(28:09):
how the song came to be and what it's about
and how you wrote it, how almost like Fire and
Rain gets or most of your songs get misinterpreted because
we just want to see it through our rose colored filter.
This just a smidgin No, let see say this is

(28:39):
my ship. It's always the second song on every always bad.
It's like a mind or a nation, like uh yeah,
they they won't even get to the lyrics until four

(29:01):
minutes in, Like they just stay here for it for
like five minutes. But I was gonna say the are
you are you rather chagrined when people take your songs
and sort of have it for the wrong meanings, Like
I'm certain that has been placed in movies and romantic songs.

(29:24):
You're like, no, this is about fen suicide and you know,
all right and drug recovery. Yeah it's it's true, um,
and uh you know. But but it's the emotional impact
of the song that really counts. And and I think
that that that's why that that song resonated with people,

(29:45):
because you know, and I think that the line I
always thought I'd see you again. I think the eyes
I said, right, that's basically the sort of the emotional
core of it, like well, when I've seen it's always
like someone arrives at the train station too late and
the love of their life already like left, or like
at the the the airport moment like yeah yeah, those

(30:13):
two puppies like yeah, yeah, no it is it's it's uh,
it's an emotional package, I think. And uh, and it
that's what comes through more than the you know, the
literal reading of the song, I think. And that's but
that's the nature of music. You we don't get to

(30:34):
decide about it. It's not a cerebral process. It it
either connects with us or it doesn't. And and to
a certain extent to talk about it, although I talk
about it a lot and think about it a lot,
but but that's sort of you know, after the fact.
I mean the music either, um, you know, because it's
a real thing. It's a it's not you know, words

(30:56):
are all words represents something else. But the only word
that is the thing that represents is the word word wow,
words of wisdom, time to get something. So so you know,

(31:17):
so so we're we put words together to to describe
all kinds of things the world, the universe. But but music, um,
although it's like a language, we we manipulate it like
a language and we use it for it definitely has
emotional I'm not sure if they're culturally you know, established,

(31:38):
or if they're if if everyone in the world here's
a minor chord the same way as opposed to a
major chord or you know, but I do think that
there's a reality to it because it it follows the
laws of physics. You know, an octave is twice the
frequency of the octave below it, and and half of
the one above it, and and and that the overtone

(32:00):
series is a real thing that exists. And so music
has it's based in, and it's based in in a
real truth, you know. And uh, and not one that
we have to arrive at it consensus about and that
way it hits us directly, and um, and that you
know that means that it you know, the cliche the

(32:21):
universal language. But um, you know it, uh you know
that's that's what we were talking about, people misinterpreting lyrics
and and uh and I don't think they really do.
I think that, um, you know, the way a song
hits you is probably what it actually has to find

(32:43):
a common emotion. So do you feel as though you're
your voice? Okay, now now I'm gonna feel like Chris
Farley asking this. Your voice is really cool, man, Um,
but you're just just see you're the tone and the
sound of your voice. Um, is such a warm gift. Uh,

(33:13):
that could possibly. I mean I'm certain that you could
sing interstad man by by Metallica Metallica and it would
just be the best feelding in the world. Um, yeah,
how did you? I know the answer is gonna be like, well,
I have you had this voice and there's a gift
from God or whatever. People people always say to avoid

(33:36):
the question, but how did you develop your voice or
what made you sing? And uh, I guess you're a
lower register like it's it's it's a rare thing to
have that much impact under a tenor. You know. That's
a really good point. And I've never you know, you're
the first person I've ever spoken to who's who's actually

(34:00):
with it that way. And I I totally, I totally agree.
You know. The way I look at it is if
if you if you have the guitar as your instrument,
you know, to sing down in the same range as
the guitar itself, it is like it's muddy, you know,
it's you. You really wish you could get above it,

(34:20):
but I just don't have that that range. I can't
get above, you know, literally above and f you know, like,
and what was the story that I read about that
you injured your voice because you were singing too harshly
years and years ago? How does what is it? Singing
too harshly sounds like you? I don't want to like what? Yeah, no,

(34:45):
it's uh uh it's I was just singing in a club. Uh,
you know, six days a week, uh, five shows a night,
um over a out band without any monitors, and and
eventually I just I gotta you know, you get little blisters.

(35:07):
I guess it's so what did you learn as a
in a singer in a way to learn how to
take care of your voice? That you It took a
long time, and now I find that as I get older,
you know, you you use it or you lose it.
So I exercise my voice every day. That's uh. Tony
Bennett told me that. Yeah, so you do warm ups. Yeah,

(35:31):
well actually riggs variety, Like right, yeah, I do, and
uh but they're not warm ups. They're actually like a workout.
It's a it's an hour long process and I do
it every day. Really Okay, So I guess, yeah, if
you're working that, you're working out like a trumpet player

(35:54):
and and you know his chops, his his arm prochure
and his you know you've got to keep it going
or right, So okay, can I ask what your daily
workout is, like what time do you wake up in
the morning? And do you set time to create like
at six am when everyone's asleep? Do you write at
three in the morning when everyone's asleep or I guess

(36:17):
it's just that entertain retainers hours. I don't know what
what's it like for you? When do you wake up?
When do you wake up in the day? Uh? Shut up?
First of all, okay, as of the speaking, as after
this talking, I'm in a relationship with someone who absolutely

(36:41):
insists I sleep eight to ten hours every night. So
let's sleep three hours a night. Right. I used to
be one of those people who's very proud to you
know whatever, death right. I was one of those people,
But you know, I I had to get out situation.
No sleep is the best thing that ever happened in

(37:02):
my life, which I'm like kind of mad I missed
out on it, um. But that said, I like, at
least preliminary. I'm used to creating late at night, so
I'll say that a lot of my practice, UM was

(37:23):
kind of uh. I'll say that of my career was
somewhere between seven pm and eleven am, um which Quincy
Jones has a has a weird theory about what he
calls what the alpha alpha state the alpha state. So

(37:45):
Quincy Jones would purposely have his uh, his his musicians
come in around six pm. He feeds them a lot
of food, give him a lot of wine, and they
fall asleep in the ake room. Then he worried around
midnight one am and wake them up one by one
to start playing their parts. The short version is because

(38:09):
when you're tired, you can't argue with Quincy Jones is like,
all right, but you're not you're not overthinking the part
you're He's like, when you're tired, you actually give a
better performance, which which is mainly to go back to
your first take thing. A lot of times, I Steve

(38:31):
has been like my longtime engineer for like twenty years.
A lot of times I don't want to know when
the tape is rolling, because usually when it's like, all right,
let's running down real quick and then we'll record it.
For like, the best performances always when you're not aware,
you're not hyper aware that it's that is running and
you're saying, oh, man, just just sixteen bars to go,

(38:51):
you know, can of you know that? Yeah? So a
lot of the times, um, reading something I can, I
can now play efforts effortlessly without thinking, you know, and
people see me a few times check my phone or
eat serial word while I'm playing. That's how effortless I

(39:13):
am as a musician. But I mean for you, like,
if you get an idea, do you keep always keep
a device on you too? Yeah? Yeah, I sort of
have to to trap those song ideas. Sometimes it will
come when you're driving the car. Sometimes it will come
when you're you know, just often when you're sitting down
and just practicing a little start playing a little figure,

(39:35):
a little wheel, and then uh, you get the thought
of a melody and a little scrap of lyric and
you you have to put that down so that you know,
and sometimes you'll be lucky and that thing will like
be half of the song you know, you'll get then
you you know, come back to it and write a
bridge or But I've always assumed it was because um,

(39:56):
I had to be ready to be on the stand
at at eight o'clock at night. Between eight and eleven
is when I was performing, and then it takes me
about three hours to to you know, calm down enough
to go to sleep. So uh and often I'm on
the bus go into the next town, you know. So um,

(40:16):
I'll I just drifted into this thing where I was
falling asleep at two o'clock, you know, and I just yeah,
and and I'm sleeping till till ten. You know? Do
you have performance anxiety? Yeah? I do do this day,
Yes I do. What does that mean for you? What
is that? So it's not? Okay? Hi, guys, I've seen

(40:37):
like you still have anxiety. You know, it calms down
after a week on the road, but that first night.
I'll definitely I've gotten a little bit more efficient at
dealing with it. You know, I don't feel it until
about half an hour before I go on, but it's
sort of packaged in that time. But I definitely must
you be alone to do you You're like, how do

(41:01):
you what a half hour before showtime? What are you doing?
That's right? Um? You know, Uh, put in contact lenses
because I if I have my glasses in the in
the stage lights, it's like it's hard to read, uh,
and hard to read the set. You know um and
uh um, but I don't use the teleprompter. I still

(41:25):
remember the lyrics. But you're better man than I don't
know what artists. Once you get past like sixties songs,
then something's gonna you're gonna forget the second verse to something. Yeah,
that's right, and and that does happen. Sometimes you'll get
to the what What more typically happens is you'll you'll
get to the end of the second chorus and you say,
wait a minute, was that the first or the second chorus?

(41:46):
I just finished? And you're not sure what's when it is?
Are we going into the bridge? Are we going into
the next verse? May I suggested you pulling what they
call a Bobby Brown y'all say it sing you know? Um? Okay, Well,

(42:09):
actually I'm curious about something. So for the two songs
that I got introduced to you in real time as
a five year old in first grade, now I'm realizing that, um,
is it the Woman Dog album? All right? So all

(42:33):
the songs are what I would call when when I
refer to the end a series or vignettes of short,
shortest songs, it's like beatles the end. That's how I
refer to see Yeah, it's like a um it is
they're they're compressed that there's not one of them that's

(42:55):
longer than a minute, and and and they're they're all
they all lead into each other. But it's really great
for kids because one of the first songs, all right,
the second song I've ever had to perform in second
grade was Chili Dog. All right, ms Lewin made us
all earned chili dogs. Oh hell yeah, dude, But yeah,

(43:24):
with what was what was the reasoning for the way
you structured that album? You know? Um, I realized that
I had all of these short pieces, and uh, I
just found a way to put them all together like
Little David play on your Heart. That's like, you know,
I had a dog I lost, uh, and I and

(43:46):
I really shouldn't have had a dog, and I felt
bad about it. You know, I was traveling too much,
damn my dog. And and uh, you know, so this
is why I have a dog. That's true, poor guy.
Before we move on though, back, No, I encourage every
listener to check out One Man Dog. I feel like
it's overlooked and underrated and nobody really mentions it often enough.

(44:11):
So One Man Dog, I'm adding it right now. Why Okay,
So I don't know why I feel like I again
my history of embracing the wrong album the wrong albums
and everyone's cannon. I don't know about One Man Dog
because Miss Lawn would play that in second grade, and

(44:32):
you know their short songs, they're easy to learn. But
why what were your at the time? You're on Warner correct?
I was on Warner at that point, So what's Austin
and those guys saying as far as like, yeah, we
need a single, well, they don't let me be lonely.

(44:52):
Tonight was a single from that that album and it
and it it did well enough too, and it also
is covered more than any of my other songs, so
um uh it you know, it was a um uh.
The thing that was a problem is that if you
look at the album and count each one of those
little songs u um uh, you know, little David Chili

(45:16):
Dog jig, you know, all of those various little scraps um,
they wouldn't pay for individual songs. You know that they're
not going to pay publishing on an album that's got
twenty two songs on it, right, So we had to
make that's right. There was a rule of ten I
think and if you do a cover of someone else's song,

(45:38):
they're definitely getting paid. If you know, you're the one
who has to has to eat. So they just certain
songs you get publishing on in certain songs, just you
don't on that on that record if you're if your
contract says that an album, uh shall constitute ten songs,
and the record company will you know, will only pay

(46:01):
for that, you know, publishing on that many songs. If
you want to put extras on, it has to come
out of your piece. Um. If if you wrote the song,
it's that that's an obvious choice. But if if someone
else wrote it, then um um. And if you do
cover another person's song, you're gonna have to pay. If
someone will, I mean they, that's that's not you can't

(46:22):
contract yourself out of somebody else's rights. So any inspiring
musicians just rewind that and listen to that one more time. A. Yeah,
I didn't read question. Okay, that's true. If I'm afraid
to ask this question, V I guess the myth of

(46:45):
what you would call again the do you call it
the Kenyan ranch or or or just not the Kenyan
rich There's there's a specific title for it. The California Lord.
Well the clip of right of Joni, you like, was

(47:05):
there an actual were you guys interacting with each other
in the way that it was kind of the myth
of it of the stories or how we see it
in our heads, like okay, yeah, could you probably hung
with Linda you know Linda Poker at Linda Ronstad's house
on Thursdays or you know Peter Peter managed and produced

(47:28):
both both myself and uh and Linda. So so yeah,
I saw a lot of Linda and I sang on
a number of her records. Carol and I were sort
of in a band together and and toured together for
for a long time. Well, Carol Carol King the days
or no, I didn't know her when she was here

(47:48):
in town, although Cooch says that she came down to
the night Al Cafe and and met us when we
were the house band down there are ill fated Flying
Machine days. Yeah, but um I saying that, does he
even is he aware of the break beat or on
fly Machine? I don't know. I didn't even know there
was one. Yeah, there's a bona fide uh diamond somebody

(48:15):
I don't tell there's a well known breakbeat Born record.
I was like, that's part of the that's part of
the hip hop diet. Good right, but uh and I
think I oh, uh so yeah, Linda and I had
that connection. H And Carol King and I had that

(48:37):
Linda on se and Carol King and I had a connection.
Joanie and I were together for a for a year.
We we we traveled together, we lived together. I stayed
at a placing in Laurel Canyon. Uh and and we
we also uh performed on each other's record. She's the
background vocals on on You've Got a Friend and uh

(48:59):
Long Ago and far Away. Uh, she's you know uh
and on a later song of mine called You Are
My Only One. Um that was Joni and Don Henley singing.
But at any rate, Joni was also very personally involved
with with Crosby Stillson, Nash Uh Jackson Brown worked with

(49:24):
Coach with Danny quartzbar in the section which was my
band made that Running on Empty album for him. So
there there was a sense of a of a group
of sort of community of musicians, and it it centered
around the Troubadoor Cafe, which was which is a dive
in in uh in l A. That's where Donnie Hathaway

(49:45):
recorded where this version of You Got a Friend was
made of the troubador Um he skipped over the part
where you where he played on Blue, just throwing that
in Joni Mitchell's album Love for People who fantastic fucking
album Blue it is. It is great, Johnny. So, uh,

(50:08):
why is Walking Man the one album that um at
Let's see why he didn't produce it. It was the
first album he didn't produce. Well, you know, I had
made already my first four albums with Peter, and I

(50:29):
really wanted to uh to Well, for one thing, I
wanted to record in New York because I never lived
in Los Angeles side. I always lived East Coast, and
uh I would stay out there with with Peter, uh
or at another you know place. But I did three albums,

(50:51):
one with Spinoza and then two with with Warner Brothers
staff producers Lenny Warrenker and uh and Russ Titelman and
and those guys who also said that so casually like
those are gods. But wait, they were just staff members. Well,
they were staff members at Warner Brothers and uh never,

(51:12):
I'm one second year old now that I'm realizing that
all the good stuff. All the stuff they produced was
on Warner which explains why the sound was so consistent,
why all those things were made at Amigo Studios right
there in Burbank. It never occurred to me that, like, oh,
that they were staff producers. And I mean I came

(51:33):
after an era where labels didn't have producers on standby
to take all the artists, and like people just chose
on their own who they wanted to work with. But
that explains why rust okay, all the all the stuff's
engineered the same and has the consistent sound. And yeah,
guy named Lee Hershberg was the was the staff. You know,

(51:54):
that was the record company's studio. So it was sort
of like if you were making a movie on the
on the Warner Brothers lot. It was. It was the
musical equivalent of that. So we go to UM. I
made two albums, Guerrilla in in the Pocket, in the
Pocket one of my favorites. Yeah, thanks, those were those

(52:17):
were good days. I felt as though I had sort
of negotiated the process of being public, of going public.
Um I felt I felt stable in my marriage and uh,
I felt healthy and well and I and it was
just like you show up at the studio, you do
your work for day, you go home. You know, it
was very work a day. It was very a stable

(52:38):
place to work. The you know, the basically working for
Warner Brothers making these two albums, and I really I
think that was a very good period for me. Yeah,
I mean it makes sense for a record label to
have staff engineers, to have a continuity to their sound.

(53:01):
I mean I think that's a sort of a lost
thing now with labels where there's just so yeah, I'm
thinking of ct I and things on jazz labels and
where it's just sort of like, you know, you always
have the same engineers and the same producers, and it's
the same studios, and it's um, it's branding. Yeah, the
labels just to do a better job of branding and

(53:21):
having their own studio. And also the music was made live,
you know, it wasn't all the process of put down
an idea with a keyboard and a drum machine, get
a vocal on it, and then start making the rounds
of people to overdub on it, which is which is
a great way to record, but but it it doesn't

(53:42):
give you the same sound you know of of h
if you have a room you're making the room, you're
making the players, and and they're actually you know, like,
uh that stand gets album go from Epanemus on it.
Uh um. But at any rate, that's a three day process.
I think round midnight probably also three or four days,

(54:07):
you know, very very live albums and uh and and
that's a that's a rarity. It just hit me, Steve
that one of our most heated debates ever about music

(54:27):
is Overheard Town Too. I'm sorry, Uh exactly. We always
have this debate. So oh I see, yeah, yeah, so yeah,
I don't know what's going on. I don't know what's
going on. I'm afraid. Yeah, well he knows, he knows

(54:51):
what he heard on the radio. No, dude, like I
lived Dawn and my dad like Dawing. My dad had
all pop and soft rock covered. So there's at least
eight of his records in my house right, not in
real time, not like oh I'm in the supermarket. Oh
it's James Taylor, that's James. My whole point was at

(55:11):
we were going this is this is ten years ago,
where we're just nering out on James Taylor classics. And
in my top five is her Town Too, which was
on Dad's uh worked right right right. That was out
when I was like ten, my sister's favorite record. So

(55:34):
I'm telling him like her town too, and it just
and I was so angry for a week and I
played it for him. I'm like, you honest, No, I'm
like and you know, I'm sorry. Different, different, alright, Well,
I actually have a very similar story because this this

(55:55):
album right here from from five. That's why I'm here.
My sister had the cassette and brought it on some
family vacation and that's why I know this one back
to front and maybe don't know, you know a different
one back to front, but it's it's the oldest sister
story basically, Yes, both of our oldest sisters put that

(56:16):
song was was a It was a real collaboration and um,
you know, uh I wrote it with a guy named
John David Souther, Waddy walk Tell and Coach. I think
we were all in the room. We were all, you know,
staying up way too late. There might have been some
substances involved. We uh we we ended up. He played

(56:41):
I don't mean to interrupt you. Yeah, he um. He
came with Stevie Nicks. Yeah, you're trying to tell me
the guy that freaking did the intro to Edge of seventeen. No, no,
no, no no, no no no he co wrote this song. Yes,
he he did. Waddy was was was in the room
and I get to ask him this question. I wish
everyone can see your face. Yeah, actually we should look

(57:04):
it up and make sure he that's how I'm remembering it.
But I'm looking right now. Does it say yes? Oh great, great? Yeah,
I'm sorry. When when when Stevie came on the Tonight
should do at the seventeen he came with her and
we've been turning out on him for at least three

(57:26):
or four hours. He is. That's That's another You know,
there's so many of these really important musical figures who
figure at least as deeply as the person at you
know who fronts the band, but you know who like
the you know, the Wrecking Crew, like the you know

(57:48):
that that the Motown house band, you know, all of
all of these these people who uh yeah, that's what
I meant. Yes, how did you choose these musicians? You know?
It the for the first album that the Apple album.
I just ran ads in the music papers in London.

(58:09):
There were two. There was one called New Musical Express
and another one called Melody Maker. And we just went
to the want ads and advertised for keyboard player and
a bass player, and uh, my friend Joel O'Brien came
over to play drums. Um. But but ultimately, uh, it

(58:31):
was like uh in it. By the time we got
to California, I had hooked up with Cooch again and
Coach had been working with Carol, so that gave us
that basic just two guitars and uh and and and
Carol's piano and and we had a number of bass players.

(58:53):
But eventually, uh, we we settled on les cloar Um.
There was a guy named Bobby West who played on
Fire and Rain. He he played uh upright base, you know,
acoustic base, and and he he bowed it to for
for one verse. I think anyway, we know scalar to,
you know the studio Scalary. Yeah, no, he's yeah, Lee's

(59:19):
Lee's uh. Also, um, you know, one of these deep
sources of music, and and I think they're there are
musical cultures like in in Japan and in Europe and
Germany where where people follow who these session players are
and understand their value. But we you know, and and

(59:42):
particularly back when when music was being made live, uh,
in the studio. You know, these these players were you know,
Linda Ronstadt depended on a guy named Andrew gold As
as her sort of musical director. And Andrew, you know,
is a big part of that sound that she she had.

(01:00:04):
And I know you know what I'm talking about, of course. No. Well, yeah,
even hip hop eds we collect records, the first thing
we do is look at the credits that are not
played on it. Yeah, I'll buy this record, Like percussion
on on on your albums was an instant whoa, I
know that name Bill Withers and dada, YadA YadA. We're okay,

(01:00:30):
so I asked, and of course it goes Steve. No.
I just speaking about collaborations and things our listeners might
not know that you um on albums you've appeared on, like, um,
just things. I wanted to bring up Steve Winwood's back
in the High Life again singing background vocals on that song,

(01:00:51):
and uh that was that was? That was a touch
title YEA produced that particular track. Yeah, and I mentioned
you played on Blue You should really talk about that more. Uh,
Is it true you played banjo on Old Man? Yes,
that's right, Yeah, and Linda and I sang on that too.

(01:01:12):
It was secession in Nashville, back when Nashville was, um,
you know, an earlier generation of Nashville, which I really
didn't you know, identify with. I just the country music
at the at that time seemed like another country to me,
you know it did it seemed like and I was

(01:01:33):
I was raised in the South, so I had a
sense of what the line was, you know what the
dividing line was. You know that kind of Christian gun rack, uh,
a cowboy hat thing. You know that that line? Um? Uh? Yeah,

(01:01:55):
oh you've noticed that, did you did? Glad you noticing?
Is that the only uh? Is that the only banjo
you've you've recorded? That's right. It was a six string
banjo and it so you played it like a guitar
and it just you know, was stretched across that membrane
that that a banjo hasn't made that sound. But yeah,

(01:02:19):
there's one more collaboration that I don't I don't think
a lot of people know about. There's a song on
an Art Garf Uncle album cover of Sam Cooks What
a Wonderful World. Yes, that's right. Paul Simon and an
Art and and I. Yeah, and everybody takes a verse.
It's really cool. Yeah, we we wrote an extra verse
to it too, don't know much about the Middle Ages,

(01:02:39):
looked at the pictures and turned the pages. Don't know
nothing about no rise and fall, don't know nothing about
nothing at all. And that that was an extraverse that
we snuck into it so that all three of us
got a verse. Yeah, everybody should check that out. It's
really pretty. We will just have a I have a

(01:03:00):
real quick question. Can you confirm something that I've always
thought in my head? Um and in the pocket. There's
a song that you did with Stevie wonder, don't be
sad because your son is down? Did Stevie come up
with that title? Yes? Okay, I knew it. I knew it.
What's it theory? Just because it just sounds like Stevie.
It sounds like a Stevie sentence. What what Stevie gave

(01:03:21):
me was this, uh, this thing that goes like a

(01:03:46):
don't he said, because he's son, he's down anyway. That's
as much as here with the James Taylor give it,
James Taylor take it away. But the thing is that

(01:04:09):
he gave me those chord changes and he gave me
butter on the piano, and he gave me, uh, the
title don't be sad because your son is down, and
he said, you know, take that. And so I think
that song and shove it. This is happening. I haven't

(01:04:50):
thought of that song in many a year. But we
we we we did it live one year and it
was really it was great. But you know, to to
be able to work, Stevie was you know, it was
one of those things. He sent it over and called
me up and and uh said, you know, give it
a try. And you you know, I'll take the publishing

(01:05:11):
on this one. You take the publishing on the next one.
And we haven't got to the next one, said kay, Stevie,
you want Yeah, as had a light bulb of the
moment um. Damn, he wants to flip some ship. There's like,

(01:05:34):
I gotta go, I gotta flip some ship. No, it's
just okay, I have one last question then I gotta
let you go. Okay. I do want to talk about
traffic jam. Yeah, but I also I want to ask
him why was it necessary for the book to come
out right now? What's more important? But I'll ask you

(01:05:55):
about yes, yes, about traffic. Yes, I'll ask you off there. Okay,
I mean that was some pioneer nationally. Okay, why did
you feel as necessary to share Thank you for sharing
your story? Yes, why did you feel it was necessary

(01:06:16):
to at the stage in your life to share that story?
Audible came to me and and suggested, uh, sort of
through my management, UM suggested that I do a project
of some sort. And initially the idea was to take
five songs of mine, uh, play them and talk about them,
you know, just sort of elaborate on them, and you know,

(01:06:38):
to the extent that it would take up. However, many
songs were necessary for that chunk of work, which it's
ninety minutes. But when I started talking to Bill Flanagan
about um getting a script together, he said, you know,
why don't we just take a certain that that portion
of your life, that that predates you're being public before

(01:07:01):
every you know, and and why don't you just tell
that story? So um it we sort of backed into
it a little bit. Uh and the story but why
why we um? Why we decided uh um just now
um you know it. I took the fall off because
I've got kids who are seniors in high school. And

(01:07:24):
they're going to that through that college, uh, you know,
admissions thing. And I wanted to not be on the
road for that. I wanted to be around so um,
I just had the time to do it. You know.
Thank you that it was necessary. I appreciate it, Thank you,
thank you. Um wow, this is one for the ages.

(01:07:46):
Yeah you well did you did? But did you You
had a question about fire and rain you were thinking
of asking? No, no, I had about traffic jam. Oh,
which what made you even think to approach the song

(01:08:07):
like that? Because you know it's essentially hip hop? You know,
it was very four or five? Was that bad that day? Yeah?
You know it was written right there in the studio. Um. Right.
And in the amount of time really that it took
to to sing the song, it was okay. It was
freestyle and and Russ kunkle Um took a foot pedal

(01:08:32):
and a box, you know, like a box filled with
packing peanuts and uh and he attached the foot pedal
to the box and play at the top of it,
you know, with brushes. So it wasn't even a drum.
It was like, uh, you know, and Russy the instruments
up on the spot. Russ Russ was was. You know,

(01:08:53):
he's a very funky player. He's a great player, and
and um uh you know we just uh basically uh
put it together and then harmonize the uh the only melody,
and the song is in the chorus. Damn this traffic jam.
How I hate to be late. It hurts my motor
to go so slow. Damn that this traffic jam. By

(01:09:14):
the time I get home, myself will be cold. Damn
this traffic jam. And and we so uh you know,
it just uh, it just came out. And it was
a very l a thing because you know, he lived
in Los Angeles. She just lived in that traffic all
the time. And uh, well, just because it came out,
I was like, well, h hop didn't exist yet. I

(01:09:35):
didn't know if it was like post Woody Guthrie folky
talkie things, right, talking blues like Bob Dylan's talking blues.
But yeah, okay, you answered it, and I appreciate that.
All Right, we gotta go Lazia, gentlemen. Wait, white people
invented rapping. Just wanted to let Steve just man On

(01:09:57):
behalf of Boss Bill and Sugar Steve and like, yeah,
and sorry, Fonte, you missed one for the record, I'm
big Bill and uh even Sarah am I missing somebody, oh,
James Taylor, Julia of course, your your family. UM, thank
you very much. This has been great man, Thank you
so much, Thank you, thank you well. This is our

(01:10:20):
episode of Plus Love Supreme amazing. I don't even know
how to sign off on my own television show. Television
show exactly. That's up. We'll see you on that, Stu alright.

(01:10:53):
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