John Oates

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Quest Love Supreme is a production of I Heart Radio.
Plase and gentlemen, welcome to another episode. This time this
really is a special episode of course Love Supreme. We
have our Team Supreme with us. This is going to

(00:20):
be a a special opinion kind of an instant to partner,
I will say that our guest today, uh simply not
only accomplished musician, singer, songwriter, but in my opinion, he
is hands down one half of one of the most

(00:42):
successful duos of all time in the modern rocket era.
He helped popularize the burgeoning blue eyed soul movement of
the late sixties and early seventies and then too the
future from my native town in Philadelphia, along with his
partner Daryl Hall, who incidentally will have this out an

(01:03):
episode to himself as well. I want a preface by
saying that usually, uh, where we have guests on the show,
I kind of like the one on one thing, just
like one Artists four Team Supreme. I know it would
have been easier to have a group aesthetic, but I
feel like you get more in depth stories when it's
one on one. And I'm not being uh a smart

(01:26):
like by referencing one of their classic songs but to
night exactly that when that was the NBA. Do you
remember a certain age when that was the NBA theme song?
Whenever when they had that one? You don't remember this? Yeah, man, Yo,

(01:46):
one on one they there was a promo they cut
and it would be like, you know, I'm a uc
bird and magic like you know, playing this sotion and
it was one on one they cut it. The one
on one. That ship was amazing. They used it for
the Old Started game. Yeah. Where are you right now
as we speak? I'm in Nashville. Okay, this is your
your home home? Well, yeah, we still have a place

(02:09):
out in Colorado where we lived for about twenty five
years in the nineties and into the two thousand's. But yeah,
we've been here now for about almost fifteen years and
uh yeah it's um it's a great place to make music. Yeah,
I see when So when were your Philly days over? Oh? Man,
you know that was a long time ago. Um. I

(02:30):
think Darryl and I both moved to New York together
in nineteen seventy two. Uh, and that's when we when
we got our Atlantic Records contract. Um, and we made
our first album in in New York at Atlantic Records
produced No, No, No, this is a Reef Martin. Oh wow,
a Reef. A Reef produced our first two albums, an

(02:53):
album called Whole Notes, which hardly anybody knows about, and
then the album Abandoned Luncheonette, which is kind of the
one that I think most people think is our first
album was second. But a Reef Martin produced both those
and uh, we couldn't have been in better hands. One
of the greatest producers of all time, and was he was?
He just he surrounded us with the greatest musicians in

(03:14):
New York City and it was an amazing experience. So
you know, UM, having you on the show is is
special for me at least because, Um, even though we
had Todd on the show, I feel like I'm gonna
get way better. Mid to late sixties Philadelphia music community

(03:37):
stories that otherwise my dad wouldn't been able to tell
me about or you know, a lot of cats and
that I've always wanted to know these stories about, um,
the music scene in Philly, especially right before Gamble and
Huff started their empire. Always been curious about that sort
of thing. Um, were you born in Philadelphia? I was

(04:00):
actually born in New York City, my family is from
New York. But when uh, my father's job was relocated
to Pennsylvania outside of Philadelphia. Um in nineteen whom gonna
date myself? But hey, you all know I'm old self.
Don't matter? Um uh fifty nine, fifty four, fifty three
or fifty four. And so we moved in the whole

(04:20):
we moved our family. The rest of my our the
rest of our extended family stayed in the New York area.
But um, no, So essentially, even though I was born
in New York, you know, I was such a little kid.
I grew up in Pennsylvania, in the Philadelphia area. Okay,
and what part of Philly were you in Pennsylvania? Well,
it was a little town called North Wales, which was

(04:42):
near Landsdale. Uh, it was about twenty miles north of Philadelphia. Okay. Cool. Um,
do you know what your first musical memory was? I
sure do, I absolutely do. Right after we moved to Pennsylvania,
there was a place not too far away called Willow
Grove Amusement Park. And now it was an air base

(05:04):
as well, but anyway, at the time it was an
amusement park and my my folks took me there and
Bill Haley and the Comments were playing in the band show.
And I don't know if you remember, but Bill Haley
was from Camden, and so I was like, I was
probably four maybe, And of course, you know, I had

(05:24):
had this musical sensibility at the time, even as though
I was a little kid. And I remember running down
to the stage. It was the bandshell, so the stage
was only maybe two ft high, and I remember being
this little kid and I ran right down to the
band show. And I remember the bass player, the upright
bass player. At one point in the show, he wrote
his bass like a horse, and I thought that was

(05:47):
the most amazing things I had ever seen. And that
actually the first live music I ever heard was Rock
around the Clock. And and uh, you know Bill Haley
and the Comments really so they were just performing at
the they were in the they were performing at the
amusement park. Yeah, I was gonna say, I think I
believe that I too saw a latter day Bill Helly

(06:11):
before mat then we used to we we had something
called the Steel Pier. Yeah, play at the Steel Pier. Yeah,
the Steel Pier in lank City. It was a Lank city,
right or wild you know, it was an Atlantic city.
And when I was a really little kid, around five
or six, I sang at something called Tony Grant Stars
of Tomorrow, which was a kidty uh talent show at

(06:34):
the Steel Pier. In my day to myself, I had
mentioned the word Al Albert's Where you do you remember
that Al Alberts show case at all? Yeah? Yeah, it was.
It was around that time, and there was a gun
and it was actually before Dick Clark took over Bandstand
and it was what was his name? There was a
different host before Dick Clark, but it was during that
period of time. It was the mid fifties and so

(06:58):
you were you were there for like the doo wop
era of Philadelphia. Yeah, dwop and Jared Blavitt and all
that stuff. Jerry Blavitt was a big hero of mine. Yeah.
That the radio show that he used to do from
I think it was from Trenton where he'd play all
B sides and um, man, I heard you know, songs

(07:18):
like Viola by the Versa Tones and you know and
uh guided Missiles and you know these songs that were
just unbelievable and you know your your your father man
Lee Andrews and hearts man, I mean, you know, tick
tick time ticking out of the clock, Hayley gotta come.

(07:39):
That's so, that's so dope, So okay. During that period,
I assuming that you're a teenager, like for you, like
when did you know what was your moment of or
you're calling of knowing that you were going to be
a musician? Like how old were you? And was guitar
always your weapon up choice? I was? I just had

(08:01):
I guess I had musical talent and I was a
little little kid, you know, I would sing. I would
sing these little songs. In fact, I have a recording
of me singing a little children's nursery song that was
done at Coney Island and one of those uh record booths,
you know where you go into the booth and you
put some money in and you'd sing and a little
record would come out. I still have that record. Um.

(08:21):
I did that when I was like four or five
years old, And then I started playing guitar at seven.
I I originally started on accordion because they were the
only music teacher in this little town where we lived,
was an accordion teacher. But I hated it, and uh,
then I played I started playing guitar about seven or eight,
and I was it you play accordion? No, I mean

(08:45):
if you were to pick it up, now would you be?
I could fumble around on it. But but what happened was, seriously,
I my mother just thought. My mom said, you know,
he should take some music lessons. Well, the only teacher
was an accordion teacher, and you know he was doing
all that Pennsylvan you you know, polka stuff, that kind
of stuff, and so I mean I hated it. I
literally I remember it. Used to sit in the closet

(09:08):
and then um, I think I took two or three lessons,
and finally on the third lesson, the teacher went, he's
not practicing. I said, I hate this. I'm not doing it.
And I said, I want to get a guitar. So
I got a guitar and I started there. Okay, how
were you when you got your guitar? About seven? Okay,
do you remember the first album that you yourself purchased?

(09:30):
I didn't purchase an album at the first. I purchased singles.
It was always singles. Okay, well, yeah, your first it
was the first record that you got. Oh man, um,
let's see Shirley and Lee. Um. Well, it was the
Everly Brothers, Shirley Lee and uh, well it's probably an
Elvid song too, I'm sure, and a Chuck Berry song,

(09:52):
probably Johnny be Good or something like that. As you
were a teenager, Um, how what was the you know,
I guess for a lot of us could say that,
you know, I grew up in the era of the
Philadelphia sound just being developed, you know, in their early seventies. Um.

(10:13):
But of course I know that a lot of those cats,
like not only Gamble and Huff, but Bunny Siegler and
all those guys were just local Philadelphia musicians. So could
you talking just about that that romer atmosphere is sort
of in the mid sixties to the early seventies, Like

(10:35):
what was happening in Philadelphia musically? Well, you know during
when I when I was a teenager living, you know,
living right outside Philly, you know, I would take the
train down on the Reading Railroad into Center City and
buy clothes and go to go to the Record Museum
on Chestnut Street by records. Uh. And what I'd always
do on Saturday night was I'd go to the Uptown

(10:56):
uh And and I went to the Uptown Theater almost
every Saturday night and who would be there. Oh, I
saw the greatest of the greats. So give me a
typical give me a typical weekend. Oh all right. You
know I saw Sam and Dave, I saw you know,
the Temptations. I saw Stevie Wonder to do Fingertips when
he was like twelve, when he first came out. I
actually saw him to play that song. Uh. And I

(11:19):
remember he jumped on the drum kit and his little kid.
I mean, um man, there were so many great Smokey
Robinson and the Miracles and four Tops, um, you know,
all the all the great motown. But you know Barbara Mason,
Uh you know the del Phonics, um stylistics. Uh well,
the del Phonics were first. The stylish came a little later.

(11:39):
But I mean, you know, I was taken with a
lot of the great Uh. I remember this one group
from Memphis that I love, the Mad Lads, Um, yeah,
the Mad Lads, and uh he just it just went
on and on and on. It was to me, it
was it was I learned how how a show is
supposed to go. You know what, what what got people off?

(11:59):
What mad work up people to scream and yell and
clap and uh, it was just an amazing experience. Okay,
so you know again, I'm a Philadelphian, and so I've
not heard and he shows about the Uptown. What would
be the typical format of a show, like, for instance,
if if James Brown is coming to Philadelphia, would he

(12:21):
normally play at the Uptown or was he at the time, Yeah,
he would the Uptown Theater. Well, you know, it was
part of it was part of the Chilan circuit. You know,
it was the Apollo that the Howard in the Howard
Theater in d C, the Uptown in Philly. I mean
that was the circuit, you know. So like what would
the format be like what shows? Would you go there
at twelve in the afternoon and stay there all day

(12:42):
or no, No, it was he they were evening shows.
They were evening shows, and they would have a house band.
They always had a house band, and part of the
house band later became a lot of the cats who
played with gamblin Huff became the studio guys for Game one.
Huff Um. But in fact, Kenny Gamble might even been
playing piano in the house. Man Daryl Will will tell
you a little bit more about that too, because he

(13:03):
he was he worked with with Kenny and and Leon
on his first record. But I, you know, I worked
with Bobby Martin. Bobby Martin arranged the first single that
I that I did, um, and I didn't even know
who he was. We we were looking I was. It
was basically my high school band and we wanted to
make a record. We went we went down to North
broad Street to a place called Virtue Studios. Frank Virtue,

(13:26):
who uh who had had a song called Guitar Boggie
Shuffle that was his claim to fame. It was an instrumental.
He had a small a small studio on the North
Broad Street and we recorded this track and Frank Virtue,
who was the owner in the engineer, he said, man,
you guys need some work. He said, I'm going to
introduce you to somebody. He gave me Bobby Martin's number,
and we went down and paid him a visit and

(13:48):
he was working out of a small office um just
south of the City Hall on Broad Street. And he
arranged it and kind of he kind of you know,
gave us a little professional you know, spit and polish
and made made it sound good. Um. So so we
were both Darrel and I were kind of involved with
the core of the game well enough people before they

(14:08):
became kind of gamble enough. What what was your group
situation before Hall of Notes or was Daryl your well
I had I had a band called the Masters, and
Darrel had a group called the temp Tones. Daryl's group
was pretty much a four part an a capella group,
very similar to the Temptations. Um, that's why they call

(14:29):
themselves the tempt Tones. Really yeah. And my group was
more of a a combo, you know. It was funny
I used that word combo. Nobody uses that word anymore, right,
it was it was you know, guitar, bass, drums. We
had a trumpet and a trombone and a saxophone. Uh.
I got my sister to sing background. Um. So we

(14:50):
were like a self contained you know, rhythm section and
vocals and we did all you know, we did. We
did what bands did in those days. We played the hits,
We played the songs that we heard on the radio,
and um, you know, leaning a lot on on the
stuff that came out of stacks and volt too. I
did a lot of that, and I did a lot
of Curtis Mayfield as well. So for you though, Um,

(15:11):
as a teenager, did you instantly know that you wanted
to be in the music business or was were you
just rolling with the win and see what would happen.
I don't think I had a choice. I you know,
I'm and I'm not bragging when I say this, but
I've never had a job. So, um, the only thing
I've ever done is playing music. That this thing I've
had to having a job was teaching guitar lessons when

(15:34):
I was in college. So that's uh, I'm a blessed you,
a very very grateful person because I got to do
what I you know, what I think I was born
to do. All right, So how did you meet Darryl? Well,
it's a it's an unusual story. Um. His he the
Temptones had recorded on on Jimmy Bishop's label. Jimmy Bishop

(15:59):
you might know. It was was the top DJ on
w DS. Their family is legendary in Philly. Oh yeah,
and uh so Darryl. Darryl was assigned to and I
think it was Arctic Records. He'll tell you. He'll give
you all the details on that on his side. Um,
and this this group I had, as I said, it's
called the Masters, and we made this track with Bobby

(16:21):
Martin and went down to the record museum on Chestnut
Street and said, hey, we made a record and the
guy said, let me hear it, put it on the turntable.
Said what are you gonna do? He said, well, we're
looking for we won't put it out. He said, sign
here through a piece of paper in front of me.
And of course I was, you know, i'd signed a
I signed anything ship. In fact, I think that was

(16:43):
I think I did that way too many times in
my career. But that's another story. You know, enough, you
don't have enough time for that. Yeah, I was gonna say,
I gotta ask you about the seventies years. But we
but we did get you know. So my song was
getting played on H A T N D. A. S.
Darryl song was getting played. So we were both aware
of each other. Um, but I didn't I didn't know him,

(17:06):
and um we were individually lighted to a record hop
that Jimmy Bishop was doing out in West Philly at
the Delphi Ballroom. The Delphi Ballroom, right, you know, And
so we went out there and we were standing backstage.
It was an afternoon teenage thing. Uh, it was the
five stairsteps, Howard Tate. Howard Tate had a song called

(17:26):
look at Granny Run Run and Howard Tate five stairsteps,
Me and Darryl's group in my group, and we literally
didn't know each other, and but I had heard his record,
he had heard my record. And then a gang fight
broke out in the crowd, and so yeah, so we
all went down and we never even got to perform.
We were gonna lipsync our record. We went down onto

(17:46):
the street level and we went downstairs. We went, hey, man,
I saw you. Yeah, yeah, you know, I said, And
we were both going to Temple University, and I started
seeing him around the school on Broad Street. And of
but John, excuse me, I have to ask you because
it sounds like so regular. This isn't an then, Now
this isn't the sixties, correct, Yeah, this team this would

(18:09):
have been n So the question is was it common?
Because d a S at the time was still a
R and B station, right, And I'm I'm guessing that,
Mary Mason, and then we're playing nothing but R and
B music, So how common was it that two dudes,
two white dudes, two different groups had music on these
black radio stations? Well, do you ever hear our music?

(18:31):
I mean I did, but I'm just saying to in
the in the moment though in the moment he listen.
We we were accepted by the black music community long
before we were accepted by the white white rock and
roll community. So it was not a surprise to us
at all when our records crossed over. You know, that
was totally seemed normal to me. Um. We just made

(18:53):
the music that we made, you know. I mean, if
when you grow up in the Philadelphia area and you
listen to Philadelphia radio and you're a kid, you're gonna
make the music that goes into your head, you know.
And so we made the music that that we made, Um,
and it I guess we must have done something right, so,
you know. But for you, but for you, Um, growing

(19:15):
up in that time period, you weren't at all drawn
to uh, the other acts of the era era like
the Dovel's or uh you know, like the Frankie Avlin
You're like, yeah, you're talking about the Cameo Parkway era. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well you see what happened was when Darrel and I

(19:37):
first met, um to the guys in my band got
drafted into Vietnam. My band fell apart. Darryl's group was
kind of falling apart anyway, so I I joined up
with him as a guitar player, backup guitar player, And
when both groups fell apart, he and I gravitated towards
each other and we started, uh, we became songwriters at
the at the Shubert Shubert Building, h the guy named

(20:01):
John Madera, and John Madera was from the Cameo Parkway.
He was the guy from the Dovell's and Chubby Checker
and Frankie and uh we we knew that that that
that music was on its way out, and you know,
it was really the end of that Cameo Parkway era.
So but we you know, we knew, we knew len
Berry and and all those guys, you know, they were

(20:21):
all around the whole time. And then at the exact
same time that Darren and I were writing on I
think we were on the second floor, gambled Huff opened
their offices on the fourth floor, um with Tommy Bell
and everything. So, uh, we all kind of started at
the same time. That building that you're referring to was
that kind of like the Brill Building, Philadelphia's version of

(20:42):
the Brill Building. It was the super Theater building still there,
but they had there were offices in it at the time.
And yeah, so that's how we started. And uh, you know, yeah,
we knew all those guys, and you know, we were
involved in that era. But as I said, the Dovell's
and Chubby Checker and those guys were wanna you know,
they were they were they were the last year's model.

(21:04):
You know, they were kind of going out. I went
to performing Arts school, uh for elementary at least, even
though it went up to high school. But oftentimes we
go to that Shubert Building to learn like our our
musical craft, like take piano lessons over there, and take
drum lessons over there on Broad Street. Um, yeah, so

(21:27):
you get you guys met when a gang fight was
breaking out, like yes, in your mind, like even like
was how typical? I mean, I guess I was born
way after like the gang Wars, but you know, if
you're a teenager in the fifties and sixties, like how

(21:50):
prevalent was gang activity in Philadelphia? You know, I think
in sixties the city was much more integrated. Um there
was there was, and as much violence. I think a
lot of the you know, the black black power movement,
black pride movement really started more in the seventies. And
you know, by that time, Darren and I had gone

(22:11):
on to New York, but you know, and and of
course there was you know, there was racial stuff happening
all over the country, but we felt I always felt
very comfortable in Philadelphia, especially in the sixties, that I
never had any problems with it. And you know, if
you really look at if you look at Gamble and
Huff at the great you know t s op rhythm section,
you know, it was an integrated rhythm section. You know,

(22:31):
there were black and white players plant working together in
the studio, and the head engineer, Joe Tarcia, he was
a white, white cat. And you know Vince Montana who
did all the string arrangements, you know, he was a
white guy. But so there was it was really it
didn't feel that unusual to me at the time. So
in your opinion, what year do you feel as though

(22:54):
what we know is the sound of Philadelphia, or at
least the first draft. It doesn't have to be the
less strings like was Philly International, but you know, like
the earlier intruders stage of like Gamble, records before Philly International,
before it was a little more raw. Yeah. So for
you like, especially this stuff they did on Atlantic. When

(23:15):
do you feel is like the the actual sound of
Philadelphia got established? I think it. I think it happened
around the same time. Uh, around nineteen seventy, I would say,
I feel like, you know, like you said, the Little
Sunny and the Intruders, the del Phonics, those records, there
were street records. They were they were essentially do wop

(23:38):
records with me with musical backing, you know, um and
And it wasn't really until later on when Tommy Bell,
I think, was responsible for adding a real high level
of musical sophistication to what was coming out of the
game on Hufs Place. You know, if you listen to
Tommy Bell and um, I mean his court changes are

(24:00):
so unbelievable and so unique and so complicated really if
you if you think about it, and you know, in
in a in a way, and I had a conversation
with with Bert Backerrack about this. Tommy Bell was to me,
he's like the black Bert back i Wreck, you know,
I mean you listen to Bert back reck songs and
the way he voiced his chords, and you listen to

(24:21):
Tommy Bell and the way he voiced his chords, I
think they were listening to each other. Um, because I
think there's a lot of similarity there. Could you talk
about the period that led up to the actual record
deal with the Lenning Yeah, well, it goes back to
the Shooter Building. We were we were working with this guy,
John Madera, and we were just songwriters. We were kind

(24:42):
of staff songwriters, and um, we would you know, we
we'd write some songs and he'd try to pitch him
for us, and nothing was really happening. And he had
done a deal with Chapel Music in New York City.
I guess he sold his catalog. And when he sold
his catalog, we can kind of came along with the deal.
We were like his new writers, and so he was

(25:02):
kind of bragging on us as as the new writers
that he was bringing along with the sale of his
publishing catalog. So we went to New York City and
we auditioned for chap Music. Basically, Um, you know, he
kind of it was, you know, he would show us off,
you know, and me and Daryl would play our little
songs you know that we had written and Chapel Music
seemed interested, but then nothing would ever happen. So then

(25:26):
go to New York and we do a showcase. He
and just Darrel, not just the two of us. He
played piano, I played guitar, and it was like a
kind of a little bit kind of a folky R
and B duo kind of thing. And everybody always loved
what we did, but we never we never got any traction.
We'd go back to Philly and and we'd find out
that and always the thing he'd always say to us

(25:48):
is that, yeah, they like you, but they passed. They passed.
We couldn't figure out why why they like us. But
nobody ever offered us a deal, And we we later
found out that he was trying to cut deals on
the side that were just so so bad that nobody
wanted to touch us because it was just and I
don't want to get into the music business. This the dark,
seamy side of the music business a little bit. But

(26:09):
that's a different podcast. No exaggucation though in Philly was
it as was the what I will say, the marks
Levy of it all. Uh was that kind of a
presence in Philadelphia as well. Absolutely, it was all over
the place, it was everywhere, So when do you feel

(26:31):
though what I you know, for those who are listening
to the podcast, I'm sort of speaking on kind of
the wise guy Mafio so era of the music business,
where we thought, so he was following you, we following you. Well, yeah,
I know we're following because we've known each other. But
I'm speaking people. I'm oh, yes, you represent the people. Um, however,

(26:58):
you know, eventually, well something It's like that episode of
I don't know if you remember The Sopranos when when uh,
you know, Tony's guys were trying to shake down the
Starbucks and the person was trying to like explaining them
like we're not a local in a local moment, coping
like this is this is I'm saying they they sort

(27:19):
of felt like dinosaurs. It was like, oh, we can't
shake down right. But for you when did that sort
of did that era ever end? I think it did,
and I think it kind of went out in the
seventies and by that time, Darren and I was so
frustrated because we couldn't get anything going and every you know,

(27:41):
it was very frustrating to have people like like what
you did, but yet not respond to you, and we
we we got to the point where we couldn't deal
with it anymore, and we we kind of put our
pulled our money together. We you know, we didn't have
anything at the time. I mean, you know, if I
could buy a cheese steak and you know, it was
a big deal for me. Um. You know, so we

(28:02):
pulled we pulled our money together, and we flew to
California and neither of us had ever been to California before.
And we didn't know that you had to have a
car when you got there. Uh, we we just we
just showed up, showed up. This guy from Chapel Music
picked us up at the airport and he let us
stay at his house and he said, I'm gonna get

(28:23):
you you know, I'm gonna let you guys play for
a few people and see what happens. We just thought
maybe California would give us a chance. And sure enough,
we played for this guy at his house, literally in
his living room. And he was friends with almed Urd
again at Atlantic Records. Very good friends they were. He
was actually he was he wasn't really a musician. He
was an art dealer. But almed Er again was a

(28:44):
big art collector and that that's I guess that was
their thing. So we played at this guy's living room
and this guy said he started it was funny. We
played a couple of songs and he started laughing, and
we said, what's up, what's the deal? He goes, are
you guys for real? And we're like yeah, and he's like,
why are you playing in my living room? And he
was how come you don't have a record contract? And

(29:04):
I said, well, we can't get one. We got them
this guy in New and Philly, who you know, can't
help us, and we don't know what to do. I mean,
it was kind of crazy, and he said I'm gonna
call on it. He says, you guys go back to
Atlantic and you auditioned for them, and we went okay,
and so we flew back to Philly and then we
went took the train to New York and we walked

(29:25):
into a room with with Jerry Greenberg, who was the
president of Atlantic at the time, and UM and a
Reef Martin and we played our songs just like we
did every time we played, and a Reef stood up
at the end and said, I want to produce these guys.
That was it. Record deal. What was it like working

(29:49):
with him? Because I became familiar with the Reef because
of I guess my love for the average white band records.
That's when I started see his name on a lot
of the c it's um at the time. Were you excited?
Were you familiar with his track record with like Aretha?
And I was. I was very, very familiar with a Reef.

(30:11):
I thought the Aretha stuff and in particular his arrangements
were so spectacular and so beautiful string arrangements and and
just his just his musical sensibility. And you know, he
was an interesting guy because he was he was Turkish
um and he had this deep, deep love for American
jazz and American music. UM. What was great about a

(30:33):
Reef was he thought like a pure musician. He didn't
care about styles and genres and what was hip or
what was happening at the moment. He just cared about
what would serve the song the best. He he thought
like a classical, like a classical arranger. He you know,
if it needed an obo and in a viola, he

(30:55):
would do an obo in a viola. He had no
there was no um, it was no kind of thing. Well, well,
so and so is doing this. This is the sounds
on the radio, so let's do something like that had
nothing to do with that, and he was he I
learned so much. In fact, I think every recording session
I've ever done since that time I pretty much tried
to conduct the way he did. He just he just

(31:18):
put the best people possible in the room, the best
players that he thought was appropriate for the music in
the room, and he just guided them and let them
do what they did. But he just kind of guided them.
He never asserted himself and made it seem like he
was running the show. He was always there and he
was always made sure that he got exactly what he wanted,

(31:39):
but he never was out there telling, oh, you do this,
and you do this, and you know. So it was
really um. It was really an education to be with
him and to see what you know. When we were
doing our the second album with him, he was producing
The Divine Miss m with Bette Miller, so we'd leave
the studio and Bette Midler would come in. And then

(32:00):
he was doing the John Prine album, the first John
Prine album, which was an unbelievable album. So he was
doing singer songwriters. He was doing R and B did.
He did Solomon Burke. Uh, you know, he did Hubert Laws,
the jazz Plow. So I mean he was all over
the map because he was so good as a as

(32:22):
a just as a musician. He didn't care what it was.
It was just music to him, pure music. And I
think that's what I learned from him. So okay, so
back then, I know that the um, this sort of
I mean the technology uh is different than the eighties
than it was the seventies. But um, when you're working

(32:45):
on an album, like is is he having is it
one on one time with him or is it for
him like a day job where it's like, okay, I
got a rethow on Tuesday and Donnie Hathaway on Wednesday. Yeah,
all the notes. I'll squeeze you guys in for three hours.
So it's not like he's spending He didn't squeeze us in.

(33:07):
He didn't squeeze us. And we had full day sessions
or full night sessions, mostly day sessions, uh. And he
usually did two sessions at the day. So yes, we
would be in there for maybe eleven to five or
something like that, and he would take a dinner break
and maybe he would have another session that evening. Um.
But we worked, I mean, we know, we worked. We

(33:28):
were we were right there, I mean right in the
thick of it, and it didn't feel like cutting the
paste to you like in terms of you know, and
I spend more time with him, and we felt, we
felt that he cared as much for us as he
did for any of the other Artison was working with,
and you know, he put us. We we didn't have

(33:48):
a band at the time. It was just darreln Ie.
So our rhythm section for that second album was Bernard Purdy,
Gordon Edwards, Richard t Um, Hugh mccrack in, Dave's Finoza. Um. Yeah,
these are the kind of players we were with. And
so for the first time Daryl and I got to
play with these, you know. I mean, we had Joe Farrell,

(34:11):
Joe the saxophone solo and she's gone is Joe Farrell,
you know, So we had we had jazz musicians and
R and B musicians and classical musicians, and you know,
it was just an amazing thing to be He just
he would hear our songs and then he would think,
I know who's right for this, and he would make
the call. We didn't even know who we'd be walking

(34:32):
into that day, but we knew that whoever we walked
into that day was going to be just right for
the music we're making. Okay, I have a question about
abandoned on Tonet. Yeah, um, specifically She's Gone. Yep, yeah, Okay.
So I've gone through this story a lot of times,
uh in the Pandemic where it's something about keys modulating

(34:58):
that scared the living big sit out of me. And
you know, I mean, be be honest, like you guys
are definitely for drama with the the end build up
of She's Going. But whose idea was it to just
do those five modulations? Like is this gonna be the key?
You know? Is this gonna be is gonna be talking

(35:23):
about the very end of She's Going? There's like just
just are you know, like in a soap opera where
you have that that sort of thing. So there's a
part of this song or like the end of I'm
trying for something for our for our listen, as I said,
Love on Top by Beyonce like four times whatever, yeah, right,

(35:44):
or a Golden Lady by Stevie. But the thing is,
to me, it's I always knew the boogee, man was
waiting for me at the end of every mirror. You
gotta get over this at some point, man. I'll tell

(36:04):
you what. I you know, I believe that that was.
That was a reefs idea to do that, um and
it it was. It's it's kind of a cheap shot
to modulate to to kind of you know, to Okay,
I'm gonna I'm gonna. I'm gonna make this song more
exciting because I'm gonna modulate up half step. I'm gonna
take it up. But I'll tell you what, Darrel and

(36:26):
I have modulated four times in that song. We never
modulated again the rest of our career. That's all all
I got to say about that. Okay, but there's also okay, um,
what's even stranger about that song is one of the
very first musical videos I've ever seen was She's gone

(36:48):
one of these strangest things. I I believe where I
see she's going. I think, Jerry Blabbitt, I know where
you saw it. You saw it. I'm you sw I'm
filad up a TV on a dance show, on a
teenage show. I did. We got a story. I got
a story. I got a story. So the way is

(37:08):
is that I remember I was I was five years old.
I believe that you guys actually did have a devil.
You know, a woman was a devil. So whatever the
lyrics were, I pay the devil to place. Remember you
guys sitting on You guys are sitting on a couch,
and I just remember a devil was running around in

(37:29):
this video. Which the thing is is that you know,
for our listeners that don't know, music videos was a
promotion tool. So in case you couldn't go overseas and
tour um, they could at least have something to play
on those top of the pop shows or Shin Dig
or any of those shows that you weren't able to

(37:51):
get to, you know, if you weren't big enough to
fly to Europe, so you would make performance videos. But
soon afterwards, uh, they started putting some concepts in there,
like Frank Zappa do some concept videos. So I definitely
remember this being a concept video. But for you guys,
did you because you you used music videos to your advantage,

(38:16):
do you feel the time like this was advantageous to
the song in your career when you have to remember
this was over ten years before MTV. Yes, what happened,
and I'll tell you what happened. Um, she's gonna began
to to get some popularity, was on the charts. Um,
they wanted us to to lip sync our song at

(38:39):
a show in New Jersey or at the at the
Steel Pier. It was called ed Her Summertime at the Pier.
It was a teenage dancer right on Saturday afternoon. Saturday afternoon, right,
So Darrel and I were thinking about it and we said,
wait a minute, I said, we can't go down to
the Steel Pier and lip sank. She's gone. While a

(39:02):
bunch of kids started to dance to it. So this
to where we said. So we said to them, can
we just come to the studio and just record the song?
You know, video taped the song, and then you can
show that they didn't know what we were going to
do though, So let's just let's just remember it was two.
Whatever we were doing at the time, there was let's

(39:24):
put it this way, there was some mine altering substances,
bob okay. So we decided that we were gonna do
this weird thing where we brought literally the furniture from
our apartment and my sister, who was a student at
Temple University. She was going to direct it. The girl
who walks by and the video is Sarah Darryl's girlfriend

(39:47):
from Sarah Smile and the devil was some kid from
Long Island who was our road manager when we rented
in the Devil Devil suit. I I rented a penguin
suit with flippers and Darre was wearing the bathroom So
I would encourage anyone out there who has not seen
this video on YouTube. YouTube, Oh wow, it never wants

(40:10):
it so weird, Like I have a list of child
memories that not want that anything. Like, yo, I gotta
I totally forgot to see what's it? Ever? On YouTube?
It is you can watch it. So we so we
did this this and they got so angry, They got

(40:32):
so piste off at us because they thought we were
mocking them. Um, and I guess in the way we were,
but anyway, so they told us. They got mad. They
called they called Atlantic Records and said these guys will
never get played on Philadelphia radio. Who did they think
they are? Well, oh it was. It was bad and
we had a back pedal to all this stuff with

(40:53):
with the record company, and um, we were just having
a crazy time because we were That's where we were at,
um and uh So, anyway, that's how that happened. You know,
my dad had a lot of records in the house.
Shortly thereafter, almost immediately as that song is going to
the charts, I know that to Bars also covered She's Going.

(41:15):
So there was This is almost the same similar situation
with the Fifth Dimension and Dina Ross like releasing Love
Hangover at the same time, like Tavarus and Hall of
Notes are kind of fighting for airplay time for She's
Going at the time. Where you guys cool now, I'm sorry,

(41:35):
I don't mean to interrupt you, but not quite. We
have released We have released She's Gone and went into
the top forty, but it didn't go much higher than that.
Then after that, Tavaris recorded and went to number one.
It was a number one R and B record, Right, Okay,
that's what I do, the Tavares version, and people said
people people said, oh man, he believe it's the number
one R and B rec and Darrenly are like, yeah,

(41:56):
that makes perfect sense to me. Um. And then we
released it again after to Ars when Sarah Smile was
out and it went into the it was I would
think it went to number two. Man, Okay, but you guys,
you guys are fine and cool with that then, you know, hey,
I know I was happy. But even Lou Rawls cut
that song, that's right. The next record with war Babies, Um,

(42:19):
could you talk about working with Todd Todd Rundsman on
that record. Yeah, well, we had moved to New York City,
and so the war Babies record was a direct reaction
to leaving Philadelphia and being in New York and experiencing
New York and the difference between New York and Philadelphia.
New York was so big, much bigger and more faster
and chaotic, and you know, and and we we really

(42:42):
you know, even though the Abandoned Luncheon Net was a
great record and is still one of my favorites, it
didn't really it wasn't very successful. So at the time,
the record business was completely different than it is now,
you know, I mean, you know how it is now.
If you if you if you don't have a hit
on your first record, you're not making a second record. Yeah. Well,

(43:03):
in those days, record companies signed you because they actually
believed that you could have a career that maybe you know,
you could evolve and develop creatively, so, but we had
no we had no reason to to to do the
same type of record because it wasn't successful. So we said, well,
let's just try something different. And you know, Todd had
having moved from Philly to New York. We figured he'd

(43:25):
have something, you know, he could relate to it. Um.
To be honest with you, we do. We were just
trying to be experimental. We're trying to push the boundaries
and see how far we can go. Um, I it's
it's not one of my favorite records. UM. I didn't
feel comfortable in that style. Um, it was a lot
more I think. I think the thing about Todd and

(43:45):
his style of production is that you know, if you
if you want Todd Runger, you get Todd Runger. Um.
You know, there's no denying what you're gonna get. And
so um you know, for me personally, not one of
my favorites. But I think what it did was it
it gave us the ability to be more kind of
in that in that experimental rock genre. And then going forward,

(44:06):
we we combined, we combined the Philly R and B
the folky stuff that we were doing and that Wore
Baby's Thing all together and that's what enabled us to
find a sound of our own. So for your the
next record, I mentioned this at the Rock and Hall
of Thame. Uh the Uh yeah, I know what you're

(44:29):
gonna say, Who's whose idea? What was it for the
cover design to do the because you know, the Androgers
thing was coming into play with like what Bowie was doing,
and I think, like I think the Stones didn't would
go to suit like for you what was the the
marketing idea of that cover? And it was That's exactly
what it was. It was. It was a moment in time.

(44:51):
That's what was happening in New York City, in Greenwich
Village at the time. Um, you know it was Rick Derringer,
tun Grand Mick Jagger, Bowie, we were, you know, we
caught up in that hole down uh scene that was
happening in Philly in New York rather and um we
met this guy named Pierre Laroche who was the stylist

(45:11):
for all those records, for every one of those records
that you mentioned, And I remember we had dinner with
him and he said, I remember what he said. He said,
I will immortalize you. And you know what, it's the
only the only album cover anyone ever asked us about
and it has nothing to do with the music inside.
But see I would ask about h Duo. But okay,

(45:35):
of course the breakout single from that is Sarah Smile.
At this time, are you guys coining the term blue
eyed soul? Like? How you know? We never really like
that step phrase, you know? To me, to be honest
with you, I just think, you know it's To me,
it's kind of offensive. And I'll tell you why I

(45:56):
think it. It kind of takes white guys trying to
sound black guys. And I don't think that's what we do.
I think we sound like the way we sound. And
if we've got sold, then good. And I'm and I
hope it comes through. Uh And you know to me
and I don't. I don't want to get too philosophical
about this, but to me, soul is not is doesn't

(46:19):
belong to any race create nationality. I mean, you know,
I hear music, I hear soulful music, and all sorts
of music around the world. I mean, you know, there's
Irish music that's very soulful, there's American Indian music is
unbelievably soulful. So I think soul is a thing that
touches you, it moves you emotionally, and that's what soul is.

(46:42):
If you hear music that that makes you move, whether
it's physically move or makes your your your emotions move.
To me, that's what soul is. So UM at least
I got it out on the table. It's very similar
to what Bonnie reading that um on our show as well,

(47:03):
with the crutch of the Blues and her experience, uh,
growing up listening to that stuff. Whether the vantage is
like you know, the I think UM from when I
listen to artists. You know, if it's white artists, I think,
more so than anything, you just want to see those
artists give credit to what they grew up on. You
know what I'm saying. I don't think it's you know
what I'm saying. And you know that's what I kind

(47:24):
of always saw with you guys, and just with the
white artists that kind of fell into that, you know
that what you call blue out, so like a Mike
McDonald or whatever. You know, they always picked up the
stuff that they grew up on. And I think the
only time it really becomes an issue is when you
know a white artist is like, oh no, this is
just all me and it's like, you know, the funk
it ain't you know what I mean, that's that's where

(47:45):
the problem comes in. But I agree, I mean, if
you can find the elements of soul in all, it's
a feeling more so than it is just a genre
or whatever. You're You're absolutely right, it's we you know,
we were all products of what came before us. You know,
we were. There's not one person on this planet who
just comes out of the womb and is a total,

(48:05):
unique original. Maybe there are a few. What we do
and what who we are is is about our It's
it's our It's in our d n A, it's in
our upbringing, it's in the place we live, it's in
the experiences that we experience, and that's who we are.
And you know, and I've I've always made a point
to uh, to be very clear that you know, to

(48:27):
point to my roots and the music that that made
me who I am, and I I honor it and
I try and I'm very respectful for it, and I
always try to to make sure that you know, people
understand that, hey, this is where it all comes from. Facts.
I think on this record, well, one you guys are

(48:49):
producing it and to um, yeah, yeah, the monsters on here.
So I can assume that Ed Green is drumming on
Sarah smile um, but I believe it was at Green
on Sara. We had three out three drums on that
rid well based on the drum feels. I hope that
you know Ed Graham of Very White fame and whatnot.

(49:13):
And also on base Leland, yes, yes, yes, and we
had Scotty Edwards as well. And here's Steve right back
when you're using when you're using these uh these monster musicians,
like do you just because I will also say that

(49:36):
consistent level spect once you get to the Faces album
that you guys capture and consistent. You know, I know
that musicians were quote unquote diamond dozen in the seventies
and whatnot, But how do you is it just a
matter of whoever is available or is there a particular

(49:58):
musician that you're looking for to give you a particul
it sound like how do you grab the musician that
you want? And how do you know who's the best
guy to use? Musicians through their reputation obviously you know, um,
but the Silver album, that one was Sarah Small on it.
That was the first album that we made in California,
we made that in Ltic and we made that in

(50:18):
l A. For a reason, we had we had an
interstor for Bond who was actually from Philadelphia, who was
in our band very briefly, and he went to l
A to try to make his mark as a session
player and producer. And after the Todd Rundgern album when
that didn't connect, and you know, we realized that wasn't
the right direction either, he said, you guys should come

(50:40):
to l A because I've got great musicians, I've got
the best studios come out here, and we should make
the record out here. And so we took a leap
of faith. We just said, hey, man, why not and
we went to We went to California, and you know,
in in the mid seventies, in California that did have
the best recording studios in the country. It was all
the best recording technologies that best engineers. And Chris found, uh,

(51:03):
you know, he found he was friends with Ed Green
and and he brought in Lee Scar and you know,
we had Jeff bercro and we had who was it
who else on drums, Jim Keltner um, we had all
all sorts of amazing musicians and they were all available
because we were in l A. So it was definitely, Um,
it was definitely a new experience to be in l

(51:24):
A and record with those guys. And yeah, we got
great results. Um and we made three albums in l A.
So there was was there truth to the rumor that
you guys were in this league gonna do something for
the Rocky soundtrack because of the Philly Connectionally at one
point for the first movie, Yeah, there was a song
called grounds for Separation. Um, Grounds for Separation was on

(51:49):
on that album and Silicier stallone. Uh, he used that
song as temp music in the in the in the
movie when they were editing. And you know how it
you know what it it is with a film if you
start using music, he kind of you kind of get
get married to it and you can't. That's the movie game,

(52:10):
you know. I have no idea why it didn't happen,
but it was a big mistake. Was part of your
right I don't know, you know what, I don't know who.
I don't know who thought that was wasn't a good idea.

(52:33):
But who ever thought it wasn't a good idea, it
wasn't too. Sure, actually asked Darryl about that. Yes, Darrell
about that? Who have a good will ask Darrell about that? Um? Okay, well,
okay for what I what I'm allowed to ask about
him was were you his first clients? Yes? Okay, so

(52:54):
you had him when he was like a twenty year old,
like out of college or something. Well, let's if you
can if we can wind back a little bit to
that story I told you about when we were going
from Philly to New York and auditioning at Chapel Music.
On one of those trips, when we went and played
our our new songs for Chapel Music when we're songwriters,

(53:15):
this young kid, Tommy Mottola was in the room. He
was a song plugger for Chapel Music at the time,
and after one of those sessions, he came up to
and said, well, you know, what do you guys, what's
what's your deal? And we're like, we don't have a deal,
and we got nothing going on. We're we're you know,
we're playing our songs for people. People seem to like him,

(53:36):
but nothing's happening. He goes, let me see if I
can help you, and that's how he became our manager. Uh.
He basically he had never managed anybody in his life,
and he was just that he was the same age
as us, and uh, you know we're in our twenties
or early twenties, and uh, he said, I think I
can help you. And he started to help us. And
when we we wanted to break out of our deal

(53:59):
with that guy and Reilly were, he kind of helped
us with that, and that's how he became our manager
for for the Bigger and both of us records that
has uh rich girl. Can I ask was it was
your label? Ever? Did they ever ask you guys to
slightly change the lyric to get on radio. I'm only okay,

(54:23):
I'm only asking this, and I hate bringing up the story. Um,
when you're young and you live with strict parents. Um,
it's not like it comes with a manual on words
that you're allowed to say and not allowed to say.
It's just that you know it's a curse word if
you get hit and you said the word and didn't

(54:44):
know the curse word. So of course I'm reading the
song lyrics and I kept singing it's a bit girl,
and I saw yeah, okay, okay, let's let's think about that.
Let's think about that in the context of the music
it's out there today. No, dude, I'm not blaming, no, no, no,
I'm not. I'm laughing about it because it seems so

(55:07):
silly to me. It's like crazy and you okay, so
you know what they you know what? You know what
happened with that? It was okay, here here's here's I
messed up the music businesses. It was okay for the
album cut, but the single we had a change it
for the single, so they made Darryl go in the
studio and sing bridge. He had to put an R

(55:29):
in the words. If you listen, if you a stingle,
it's bridge. You can barely tell, but it's there. And
so just by doing that, that was okay. It was
so stupid. I guess was bitch. I'm confused. Way the
intention was bitch. Yeah, the lyric was bitch. But you

(55:52):
couldn't say that, couldn't on the radio. And all my
life I did not, all my left life. What do
you think it was? She's a girl? Yeah? But then
then he goes back and says it's a girl because
he does. You know what, Okay, I'm not the only one.
Are you familiar? With the Philippe win Uh One of

(56:16):
a Kind Love Affair story. No, I'm not through the story,
but he's one of my favorite singers of all time. Yeah, no,
he's he's he's definitely out there. He did a rogue move.
I always wanted to know when how did he get
kicked out the group? And this they can get her

(56:36):
kicked out the group. But this sort of put the
group on high alert that he could be rogue. So
the next time you listen to One of a Kind
Love Affair towards the end, I had gotten a forty
five of this maybe uh back in nineteen nine seven,
and I saw that it said edited version and at first, no, no,

(56:59):
it's said un centrip version centrip version. And in my mind,
I'm like, wait, this is the Spinners, not n w A,
like what could be censored on the Spinners thing? And
I happen to ask somebody who used to work out
Atlantic and they told me the story that basically Felipe

(57:19):
in the very last rounds of that libs one of
the kind afarious he's just you know, you want to
love hut you just gotta fuck her? And yeah he
got away with it. I think they got away with
it for like eleven weeks and then suddenly the FCC started,

(57:44):
you know, like someone caught it on the radio and
then like and he and he didn't deny it at all,
So I like him even more now, Yeah, exactly right,
So could you could you talk about in your opinion,
because you guys won't basically have kind of hit your

(58:06):
stride at least with the hits until four years later.
So that period in between, like with the Nogabys record,
with with with Beauty on Back Street and uh, the
the Lifetime record, like oh and also the I think
ecstatic for those five records, what was generally happening with

(58:29):
you guys and in terms of where he wanted to go,
And yeah, I can tell, I can tell exactly what's happen.
So we went in l A to do that silver
album and it was successful with Sarah Smile, then she
didn't really she's done. That was successful. Then Rich Girl
came on the next one that was successful, so I
was so we were a role and we were playing

(58:50):
bigger you know, bigger arenas and things like that. Then
came the Beauty on the Backstreet ub and what happened
was and I can I can tell this story because
you know, God, God bless him. Crispawn had passed away
a few years ago. Um. He he was a brilliant
musician and producer, but he was a very, very damaged
individual and as we got more successful, he lose it

(59:16):
and he began to over indulge in substance abuse. So
when we went out to do the third album, which
ended up being Beauty on a Backstreet, he was very
very iraq. UM. In fact, we had a canceled sessions
because he passed out. It was cracked his head on
the on the control, you know, on the on the console,
and uh got to be taking the hospital. It was.

(59:39):
It was a bad scene. And so he barely made
through the album. And that album, to me, is the
darkest thing we've ever done, and I don't really care
for it. And I never listened to that record ever.
So what happened was because we had no hits and
that record wasn't very successful. Um, we kind of, you know,
kind of fell off the radar a little bit. And

(59:59):
Darre and I think one of the smartest things we
ever did during that period of time was we said,
you know, we've been recording all our albums with studio
musicians and it's been great, but what we really need
is a great live band, and we need a live
band that's so good that we can take that same
band into the studio. And at the time, right at
that time, Elton John was just finishing up the Yellow

(01:00:22):
Brick Road, and we made friends with the Elton John band,
which was Caleb Quay, Kenny Passirelli, and Roger Pope, and
we basically adopted them, and all of a sudden we
had this kick ass live band that we could take
into the studio and we did this album called Along
the Red Ledge, and we had a lot of guests

(01:00:44):
on that album, and we've been David Foster, who had
never produced a record before. We were his first artist
David Foster ever produced. Oh this is the year before
After the Love Is Born, So okay, So he worked
with you guys first, and I gotta tell you about
After the Love Has Gone too, because when we were
getting ready to do the album with David Foster, he said,

(01:01:04):
I got a song for you guys. O boy, oh yeah,
And he said here check that he had written it
with Dave Graydon. Yes, And so he said, me and
Darrel were sitting in his living room and he played
it on the piano and he can't sing for ship,
but he's an amazing piano player, and he was singing

(01:01:25):
and even doing after the Love Has Gone, and we're like, yeah, yeah, up,
I know vocals, dude with us, I mean, if you
hear if you think about it, now you can hear
us do it? You many major mistakes in our career.
We what did you think about when you heard the

(01:01:48):
Earth Winning? I was just curious and he went and
did it with Earth Wind and Fire. When you when
you heard Earth Win in five version? Was that like,
did did you get it then? In a way that
maybe you didn't get when when David had trying to
think it I got it the first time. But it's
also fante. It's also a little weird because even Philip

(01:02:10):
himself says that that song for him was sort of like, yeah,
it was his success. But you know, you also gotta
understand that Charles Stephney just died and they I'm not
saying they got back. It's weird to think of all
in all, as the earthwor and Fire gets by off
the skin of their teeth, but just the fact that

(01:02:31):
Marius was able to make that record without Charles's still
do some line blowing want and he had that one
record and him and then you know, called him for
David to help him. But I remember a lot of
fans kind of feeling the same way about After the

(01:02:52):
Love Is Going is maybe like about cool the gangs
or like yeah Joanna's I'm like, yeah, it's like that.
But now I think about it, man, it had all
had all of notes done After the Love Is Going,
I think that would have with the right musicianship, that

(01:03:12):
probably could have just ousted. Bobby called well, just as
the definitive slow jam, like yeah the Blue Eye like
that that, Yeah, we we would have crushed it. But
it speaks to David Foster because the song was banging
either way. And listen, Dave, David Foster wrote a great song.

(01:03:35):
He's an incredibly talented, amazing guy. Um, but he wasn't
right for us as a producer. But at least, you know,
we did get to work with him for a couple
of albums. And then you mentioned Ecstatic. We brought David
to New York um to record that record because we
didn't want to be in l A anymore, and he
in the middle of that record, he said, what am
I doing here? You guys are making this record yourself.

(01:03:57):
You don't need me. And that was the last time
we ever an outside producer. It's almost like you guys
became a brand new group with the Voices record, another
another career misstep. M we uh we. We were finally
back in New York where we wanted to be, and

(01:04:18):
we had a band that could that we we finally
achieved what we knew we needed to do. We had
developed a live band that could play live and kick
ass and we could take them in the studio and
then but we were also producing ourselves. There was no
one else except us in the engineer and so we
did it. We made the kind of record we wanted

(01:04:38):
to make, and I think it was just a very
um inspiring time, great musicians, great songs, and it was
just it was it was happening. We were were glad
to be out of l A and Um. I think
that we had a New York had a big energy
in and we kind of tap into it. Speaking speaking

(01:04:58):
of your bands, you know, by by that point, Um
at least, that to me was like the last era
of musicianship where not only did you care about the artist,
but you also cared for their band too, and you
guys had a really charismatic band. Um. Longtime fans will

(01:05:20):
instantly recognized that. Um, you know, the great g Smith
was your guitar player long before he was uh yeah,
the SNL musical director of like the the eighties and whatnot. Um.
Also Tom t bone Walk, one of the greatest of
all time. Dude, do you know how crush that was

(01:05:43):
so Steve? Do you remember they were coming on, yeah,
the Night Show to perform and they had to cancel because, uh,
we have booked you in two thousand and ten and
Tom had passed the morning the morning of Yes, but

(01:06:03):
could you talk about that band but just your whole um,
just your whole uh crew. By that point, like is
eighty when you sort of solidified that band. Yeah, that's
when it started. That's when that band jailed. Right after
the Voices album and that band uh here again was

(01:06:23):
finally the you know we we we still were in
that search for that ultimate band that could play live
and be in the studio, and that that's when we
found him. Ge joined us first, and he brought in
Mickey Curry on drums, Mickey was a friend of his
who had played in bar bands with him, and Nicky
had never played in a professional band, you know, before

(01:06:47):
us when we had Ge and Mickey. It's kind of
a funny story. We were looking for a bass player
and we we did some our auditions at s I R.
I don't know if you got time for this, but
we were looking We we had Gene and Mickey and
we really needed We knew we needed a really great
bass player. And we had done some auditions and most

(01:07:08):
of the guys were not not up to up to it.
And we had come down to two guys. And there
was this one kid from Long Island. He was tall
and skinny, he had a great haircut. He was a
good looking guy. And then there was Tom Wolk who
had not been named Tebone yet. He was just Tom
Walk and he was kind of a you know, he

(01:07:31):
kind of wore flannel shirts and a cap, and he
lived in Austin and New York. And you know, they
were both really good players, right. We didn't you know,
we didn't play with him a lot, but we we
kind of tested them out. So it came down to
these two guys, right, So we finally had the finals,
we had the we're gonna have the audition between these
two bass players, so that the guy comes in, the

(01:07:52):
kid from Long Island, the good looking guy comes in,
and he was kind of cocky. He felt like he
had the gig, and you know, we played a couple
of songs and he was good. You know, so after
and t Bone came in when no, no, I'm sorry,
hold on. T Bone came in first and he played
amazing and he left, and then the other kid came

(01:08:12):
in and he played and after he was done, he
felt like he really was in the band. And he
remember he turned around to us and he said. We
actually turned around to Darrell and we were sitting around
and he said, hey, Darrel, when him in the band,
I think I should sing kiss on my list. And
remember Daryl turned to manage, Hey John, go get the
bald guy. You're serious. Yeah, yeah, Darren. Daryl said, good,

(01:08:39):
let's get the ball guy. And that's how that's how
we got th Bone. Man, it was the best decision
we ever made. Every talk to himself about a gig.
He didn't he was he serious. I don't know whether
he was serious enough, but if he wasn't serious, it
was an asshole, So it doesn't matter word on Voices.

(01:09:04):
The original voice, the original version of every Time You
Go Away was on that record. M was that ever
released as a single off that record? Was that just
an album cut? It was? It was the last track
on the B side. And you know, back in the
days when you're making vinyl records, the last track on
the B side was was either the the art record

(01:09:27):
that you couldn't fit anywhere else, or it was like
the throwaway record and they didn't think of it. Wait,
if you listen to our version, it sounds like a
Stone Stacks Volt Stamon Dave track. I mean it is.
It's real authentic and real raw. And you know, to
give Paul Young credit. Um, those guys heard it and

(01:09:48):
they turned it into a great pop song. But but
if you listen to our version our versions, I think
is great too. But it's not a single. It's not
a pop single. Long time QLs heads should also know
that uh piano Palladino is playing bass on the Paul
Young version of every Time You Go Away? Why were

(01:10:14):
there two album covers for Voices? Because because we were
we were trying to control everything. We didn't want the
record company to tell us what to do, so we
made our own album covers black and white, and we
didn't know what to do. So we took a picture
of Darryl in a picture of me, and we tore
him in half and we pasted it together and we
sent it to the record company, said put this on
the cover. And they didn't want to do it, but

(01:10:35):
they did it because they had to, uh, they because
we made them do it. And what happened was the
record got released. We were really popular in Japan at
the time, and they we were going to do the
Japanese tour, and the Japanese record company said, we hate
this record album cover, and so they made their own
album cover without telling us. So when we got to Japan,

(01:10:57):
there was that album cover with me with the pink pants,
right yeah, and the Japanese people they had that picture.
It was a publicity picture that and they just stuck
it on the album. They didn't even tell us, and
we said, hey, what do we get to Japan, we
have a new we have a new album cover. And
so that's so then America we re released the album
with that Japanese cover. That's crazy because I like the

(01:11:20):
black and white version. Better. What's because you have good
taste with the transition of the eighties, were you guys
thinking about, you know, the versioning new wave movement or
the stuff that like Gary Newman was doing with drum
machine technology and whatnot, Like, how how is modern technology
coming into to play with the band? Uh? Starting with that,

(01:11:43):
because I think it was notable to not just use
the drum machine as a click track, um, but to
actually make it part of the song. We were We
were using something called Rolling Company rythm. It was a
little wooden little wooden box, a little square box. It
had four presets rock one rock to bossa, Nova and samba,

(01:12:07):
and you had a rotary knob that would you could
adjust the tempo by rotary knob, but it didn't tell
you how what the tempo was. It was just you
just had a feel. We would use that for feel
for just when we were trying, you know, kind of
going over the track and trying to get the right
tempo in the right field. Um. What happened with kiss
on My List? Kissing My List was never intended to

(01:12:29):
be on the record. That was a song that Darryl
wrote with Jane Allen, who was Sarah's sister who was
a young writer um and she came up with the idea.
Daryl helped her with it, and she wanted to make
a record. So it was at the end of one
of our sessions for voices and we were all done
for the day and Daryl said, let me, let me

(01:12:50):
just make this demo for jan because you know, I
promised her i'd, i'd you know, lay it down for
So he went in on the piano with the with
the umpy rhythm hit rock one you know, and you know,
and he just played the song. So we didn't want
to waste tape, so we recorded at fifteen ips instead

(01:13:12):
of thirty ips because it was a throwaway. It was demo,
so after it was done, it was just the piano
and the copy rhythm and we played it. I guess
dry played it. Might have played it for Tommy Mattola
or someone and everybody flipped out and said, that's amazing.
You guys gotta cut this. So we didn't really want
to recut it because it sounded really good the way

(01:13:34):
it wasn't was on ip s. So the song has
this kind of warbly thickness to it, Yes it does.
And and all we did was add add a couple
of instruments to it, bass guitar, you know, some little pads,
and that's the way we put it out, so it
really it was supposed to be a demo, and that's
why we we kept a copy rhythm Onnitor just like that.

(01:13:57):
I always wanted to know, Um, I think you go
on my forty five. On my forty five of Kiss
on My List, I believe the B side was Africa.
Is that you guys doing a sort of your bau
Didley homage there or Yeah? That was my That was
my song that I wrote for my girlfriend at the time,

(01:14:19):
who was a model working around the world, and she
was she was in Africa, and I just thought it
was kind of funny Africa. Yeah, like I don't know what. Yeah,
Africa was just one of those songs where I constantly
had it on rotation on my forty five. You know,
if you put the arm over to the right, then

(01:14:40):
you could have the song repeat over and over and
over again. And I just always remembered, like the summer
nineteen eighty like that was always the I just always
kept it on the B side for the Private Eyes record.
All Right, I gotta cut to the Chase Man, you know,
and and due to the lasting power of it to

(01:15:01):
this day, you know, DJ gigs are not complete. For
half of American's d today's if I can't go for
that is not played. Could you please give us the
story of how that song came to be because it's
such it's such a the way that it's just stripped

(01:15:23):
down and sounds it sounds so revolutionary. That the session
was over, everyone had gone, Uh, me, Darryl and the
engineer were in the studio and we were an electric
lady and Darrel walked down into the studio with the
electric piano and here again the Rolling Company rhythm, which
always sat on his piano, so we could basically work

(01:15:45):
through tracks. And he had an idea. I guess he
had that idea in his head, but he never said
anything to me or anybody. It was just maybe something
that was just going around his head. And he he
hit rock one and whatever tempo was on it, I
don't know whatever that was said at and he just

(01:16:05):
started playing his left hand. He just started playing bonging,
go Go, Go, Google, and then he started playing and
then he said, may hey, John, get your guitar, and
I got the guitar, and he actually suggested to me
to play this line. He goes play play a muted
like a like a funk line, and I stuck in
third throng from from throng, and all of a sudden,

(01:16:29):
it's just like went like this. You know, it was like, okay,
there's this doesn't need anything. This is like it right here.
It's the left hand of the keyboard, the guitar thing,
and that was it on that song. The only thing
that's on that song is is the keyboard, the guitar, sack, solo,
and one synthesizer thing dude right, and and then back

(01:16:55):
on vocals. That's the whole song. It was whose idea
was that to make it sound as stripped down, because
to me, that drummer scene is such a radical sound
to it. I mean, there's two versions of the twelve
bench has more brighter drum mixed to it, but the

(01:17:15):
album cut version I can't describe. To me. It was
almost like an improved version of the drums that slide
was on. There's a right that that album you know,
there's right going on that had that same quality to

(01:17:38):
it that you said. It was stripped down and raw,
and it was dry. There was this just this thing.
I mean sometimes when when you know you don't have
to have a lot if it's the right combination of
you know, of tonalities. When you get the right tonalities
and they're not fighting each other, they all have their place.
You know, they got their role in the right place. Tonically,

(01:18:00):
that's all you need. You don't need anything else. And
I think we were smart enough to realize that it
was the groove was was was major and it was
just that was that's all you needed. No One told
you guys like, uh, this group might be undercooked a
little bit, like it needs something else or nobody. Nobody
told us anything because we never let anyone in the studio.

(01:18:23):
I love it. Just the engineer engineering band, Yeah, record
com people. It's the great engineers from Electrical Lady. I
don't know what's what's going on. Must be something in
the water over there. I have a question. Um for you, John,
Um was Private Eyes the first album that you did
go to Electric Lady forks? I know you went there
for a few Yeah. I think we did Voices at

(01:18:45):
the Hit factory. Um. Voices was done at the Hit Factory. Uh,
and then we started Private Eyes at the Hit Factory,
and Darryl and I both lived in the village. We
both lived very, very close to Eighth Street, and we
just wanted to walk to the studio. That's that's why
we picked Electric Ladio. We wanted to be able to walk.
I wanted to be able to walk to the studio

(01:19:06):
and walk to Bell Duchies and that was that was
for for me, at least my era of Electric Lady.
There's this, you know, revered thing for for Hendricks, like, wow,
is the House of Indricks. But back then was it
like that or was it just like, hey, there's a

(01:19:27):
studio on a street, let's just go there and make
a record. Yeah, yeah, I mean sure you didn't have
a vibe to it? It was, Yeah, it had a vibe.
There was no doubt. It was at a five and
Eddie Kramer used to used to pop in and out,
um you know, and you know, you walk in there
and there was that big mural that went down the
hallway psychedelic heur. But but the reality was it was

(01:19:50):
on a street and we could walk to it. So okay,
it almost took ten years for you to reach the
promise of what you were I guess initially planning on
doing back in the early Atlantic days. But as a duo, Like,
how are you too getting along with this newfound success.
We've always gotten along really well. We um, we we

(01:20:13):
really leave each other alone. Um. You know, back in
the early days, you know, we were together constantly and
traveling constantly always, you know, everything was shared. But as
we got older and as we got more successful, you know,
we lived separate lives with separate families, you know. And um,
but but we you know, we met as teenagers. So
it's almost like a brotherhood. You know, it's almost it's

(01:20:35):
like a it's a family thing. You know, we don't
have to even talk. We can be a part for
long periods of time and we get together and it's
like time stops. It's it's a very unusual thing. Um.
And I'm it's amazing to be honest with you, that
we were still able to work together. You know, we
we do our own thing. We're we do separate projects. Uh.

(01:20:56):
You know, I'm gonna I'm doing a tour next week,
actually an acoustic tour with a guitar player friend of
mine here in Nashville. Um, and Daryl's gonna do a
tour he's doing some a new solo album tour, uh,
and then we'll come back and play together, you know,
probably over the summer. So you know, I know that I,
for one, very tired of anytime someone sees me alone

(01:21:20):
in public. Nine times out of ten they're gonna ask
me where's the rest of the guys at where's the band?
I'm almost certain you get asked more every day. Where's all?
You know? They they think that they think that we
just you know, we're just well, you know, our company
is called two Headed Monster, So that gives you an idea,

(01:21:44):
what you know, what it's all about. I remember one
time I was sitting in a dressing room, and it
wasn't long ago. Sitting in the dressing room and I
was by myself in the dressing room, and one of
these security guys at the venue stuck his head in
a dressing goes. He looked at me. It was nobody
else in the room, and he said, which one of
you guys is holding notes? I guess, I guess that's me.

(01:22:10):
I don't know, all right? So for h two oh,
first of all, while on this streak, what is the
what is the pressure like for you? Like kind of
going into Private it's like, damn, we gotta top you know, voices,
And with H two it's like, oh man, we had

(01:22:33):
like four top ten singles with the Private Eyes record. Like,
are you feeling the pressure at the time or is
it still like we still have to prove ourselves or
do you now feel like by this point at least
like you've arrived. I think well, we definitely felt like
we arrived. We felt like when we we we were

(01:22:54):
doing the right thing. You know, we had to achieve
what we wanted to achieve. We were producing ourselves. We
at the band, we wanted that we could take live
and be in the studio, and we thought that that's
we were there, we and things were rolling. You know.
The band was amazing, the vibe was amazing. We're writing
really great songs. And I don't think that there was

(01:23:16):
no exterior pressure. We didn't have pressure for the record company.
I mean it might have been there. We never ked
let it get to us. We just I just wanted
to make a great record and we just went in
there and did it. I've heard rumors of it, but
can you tell me whether or not. I don't know
if it happened that the we Are the World Sessions

(01:23:37):
or whatever. It was the truth to the rumor that
Michael Jackson actually told you guys that Billy Jean was
inspired by the DNA of I Can't go for That
over that. He didn't say that to me. He may
have said that to darryl Um. He did say. He
came backstage with his brothers when we were playing in

(01:23:57):
California in l A and he said, he said, I
can't go for That's my favorite song to dance to.
You goes, I dance, he goes. I work out all
my dance routines to that group. So just that and
that alone kind of tells you that if he liked
it that much, he must have said to himself, Man,
I'm gonna write something sounds like that. Yeah, what about

(01:24:18):
so what that's what that said? Man Eater and part
Time Lover, Oh what are your thoughts on on that?
You know, Man Eater? I wrote the chorus of man
Eater as a reggae song because I had come back
from Jamaica and I wrote it as I wrote it

(01:24:43):
as a reggae song. It was like it was like
it was like um, you know, and so I wrote
it like a like love is rock kind of thing.
And I and I and I played it for Daryl

(01:25:04):
and he was like, many because I love this. He goes,
he goes, I don't know, man, he goes, I don't
know if reggae groove is right for whole notes, And
well what he got and he went on, gone gone,
gone okay. And I mean, at least I was smart
enough to listen to him. You know the question I

(01:25:26):
always wanted to know. All right, this is more of
an arrangement question. Sometimes there will there will be some
songs that get released and in your mind, in retrospect,
in your mind, you think that the course happens a lot.

(01:25:46):
Great example is uh Fante the the rock Master Scott
and the Dynamic Three's the roof is on fire like
of course that powerful, but it only get said once
in the song. And that's like you gotta go, You
gotta wait five minutes before you even gets to that part.

(01:26:09):
And for me, a song like one on one, I
always swore to God that the whole back and forth
between you and daryw what what I get to n
wanta want I get you? Nah? Like that only happens once.
Yet in my mind that's that's a course that just

(01:26:31):
goes on and on, which is so tricky. Who who?
And that's a very intricate Uh. That song has a
lot of intricate background parts, like whose idea was it too?
I'm surprised that it was a hit because you guys
didn't take the easy route and just saying the easy

(01:26:52):
part of the course, but there were other sub courses
in there. We really pride ourselves on those background arrangements.
And that's a Philly thing. I mean, that's really that's
coming from the doop background vocal thing. Um. And if
you listen to some of our songs, and I think
a lot of people don't realize this, but a lot
of our songs, the hook is actually the background part. Yes,

(01:27:15):
it's it's very unusual. People don't realize that. But the hook,
like for out of Touch, that's just a giant background
vocal and the lead is bouncing off the backgrounds Um.
We do that a lot, um, And that's a thing,
you know, you want to know how I know that
that's true. Maybe five years ago I got the Master two.

(01:27:38):
I can't go for that m And just as an experiment,
I took the vocals and put them over where the
background should be, and I took the backgrounds and put
them where the vocals were. Yeah to this, no, yeah,
yeah to this day. I mean, I've been playing it
and my DJ sets to see if one person notices

(01:28:00):
that Darryl singing over the chorus music and the choruses over.
Not one person has noticed it yet. And that's all
the only version that I played. That's cool. I didn't
realize that's that I'd like, I would like to hear that.
How did you guys get Family Man from Mike Oldfield?
That was that was just an accident. Um. We were

(01:28:22):
making the record and one of our roadies, our keyboard
tech who was helping us with keyboards, he came in
one day and he said, hey man. He was a
big Mike Oldfield fan, and he said, I heard this
new Mike Oldfield record. And he goes and there's a
vocal on because Mike Oldfield was predominantly instrumental, and he said,

(01:28:44):
this is cool song with this girl singing this vocal,
this vocal tune, and he said, you guys got to
hear it. And we just played it for fun in
the studio and we went, wow, we should cut that
and we did, we just cut it. I also remember
you did two versions of that video. One version was
like extremely long, like it was almost like again the

(01:29:08):
early days of MTV where they just need a lot
of content. I definitely remember, Yes, had cut like ten
versions of Leave It. But there's two versions of so
I'm just I'm not laughing at you. I'm laughing, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes,
well Gallian cream of like mixes of not of Owner

(01:29:30):
of a Lonely Heart too, like there's Trevor wasn't messing
around Trevor Horn. Yeah, but I remember you guys did
two versions of an extended version of of Family Man,
which is like eight nine minutes long. And we're always

(01:29:52):
doing pub mixes you know on some of those records.
Did you have anything to do with that? You and
Daryl or did somebody else? Just well, the first club
mix that we had success with was for Um Savis
and So with jelly Bean Benitos right that one, and
then we then the really extreme stuff that we did

(01:30:12):
later on on the on the Big Bamboo Mountain Arthur
Baker and an important summit meeting of a record you
were part of USA for Africa's We Are the World.
What was what was that experience? Like Quincy Jones and
Lana Ritchie and Michael Jackson. They were smart because they
knew that it was the American Music Awards were going

(01:30:35):
on in l A. And and back in those days,
you know, you only had two things. You had the
American Music Awards and the grounds. They were really it
was not a million different awards shows like there is today. Um.
And so they knew that everybody kind of who was
anybody in pop music was gonna be in l A
for American Music Awards because you pretty much everybody went.

(01:30:55):
So they just said they sent invitations to everybody to
select people to come to the studio at A and
M after the awards, and the the invitation said no managers,
no agents, no hangers on, just come, just come. And
it was a green room out in the lobby for
all the people. You know that all the other folks

(01:31:17):
and um, just the artists were allowed in. And that
was the that was brilliant because all the artists let
their hair down, you know, there was no hangers on
and agents and managers trying to you know, control anybody,
and everybody just got real. Everybody got real and uh,
you know, I remembered they had little names on on

(01:31:38):
the these little steps where we all stood for the course,
and I had I had Ray Charles was right in
front of me, off my left shoulder, and Bob Dylan
was right behind me on my right should and I
was just looking. I was you know, you know, through
the years, I think I've tried to be more very
aware of certain moments when uh, when I realized that

(01:32:01):
maybe this is something that you know, couldn't might never
happen again. And I remember very distinctly being very aware
of what was happening, where I was and what was
going on. And I thought to myself, this is a
very unique thing. And I don't know if you can
see it or not, but I don't show it to you.

(01:32:23):
Oh everyone signed. I got everybody signed it. I think
this is the only copy that exists, I mean everybody.
So we're looking at the sheet music and everyone's signature
from We Are the World. For once, for once, I
had the presence of mind to go around and get everybody.

(01:32:45):
Oh yeah, everybody else even got great Charles and Stevie
Wonder signed this thing. So okay, that's myself. How long
was the process for you? Um? It was a couple
of hours. But you know what we did. We just
sang the chorus. Um, we said, we we all sang
the chorus in unison. And then we said, okay, everybody

(01:33:05):
just throw a harmony part on and you know, of
course he had a good room for great singers. So
everybody just picked apart, sang a third third, you know,
octaves or whatever it was. And uh, and then everybody
broke down. Then they did all the the solo solo stuff. Um.
So so the backgrounds were the first went home. And
it didn't it didn't take long, It really didn't. Um.

(01:33:27):
There was a couple of little snaff It was a
couple of little issues where you know, you know, you
put a bunch of eight A list talent in the
same room and somebody's gonna think they're gonna start producing. Um.
And uh. There was a couple of little things where
I won't mention any names, but Stevie, yeah, yeah, we

(01:33:49):
we had We had Huey Lewis on this show. Did
he tell you the same story? Uh? No, no, no,
I don't know I know a story. Yeah, but you know,
Stevie made some suggestions that he he thought would be
a good idea and it kind of kind of derailed
the whole thing because we're trying to get a lot done,

(01:34:10):
you know. And uh, and finally, you know, Quincy Jones
just came out from behind the console, you know, behind
the glass, and he just once Quincy came out, it
was like and I remember, I think I think Ray
Charles said something like, hey man, I think he said,
as I recall, he said, it is his line on
Michael's song. Let's just do it the way they want.
And that was and that was it. Once once he

(01:34:32):
said that, everything kind of got imagine Stevie versus right,
I just love it now. They were friends and I
know it's all fun. Sounds hilarious, you guys. Were you
guys also on the Sun City record as well? Yeah,
I was. I don't know what it was that recording
to them the same way or was it just like no,

(01:34:53):
that was all individual stuff. Yeah, it was a group thing,
but it was small groups. I think Stephen brought different
people to together and it was all done in New
York in a small studio in the city. You know,
you guys are basically the gold standard like for you
was it? Were there any regrets of that? Period in

(01:35:14):
that rise of of being at the top of your game,
of having like number one singles, number one albums, has
has there been something that you haven't achieved or just
that you could have readone or something. I think that
people who perhaps to realize that when you have this
mega success like that in the pop world, um, the

(01:35:38):
biggest thing that you lose is is time. You lose time,
and you lose you lose yourself because there's so much
demands on your time for obviously to make music, to
to promote the music, to tour, to play live, to
write new songs. It just never seemed to end really um.
And I think when we got it right after you know,

(01:36:01):
we did, we did three things that were really big.
We did We Are the World. We did Lifetime Live
AID in Philadelphia Veteran Stadium, and we headlined that with
you know, with Jagger and Tina Turner and UH and
Eddie Kendrick and David Ruffin. And then we did We
and we had done the Apollo Theater show and we

(01:36:24):
also had Eddie Kendrick and David Ruffin. Once we had
done those three things, I think Daryl and I actually
looked at each other and said what more could we
possibly had? Had more success we could have ever dreamed of.
We had, as you said, number one records two of
the world, you know, on the top of the pop charts,
and I think we I think we were smart. I

(01:36:46):
think we realized that there was only one way to
go from there and that was down, um, because I
don't think you can sustain that sort of success. I
think it's very difficult. Very few people can sustain that
sort of success for a lengthy period of time. And
I think what we did was we stepped away. And
maybe it wasn't the smartest thing to do from a

(01:37:07):
business point of view commercially, of course it wasn't, but
it was a smart thing to do form for psych life,
you know, for life from how you know, how um
difficult or challenging was it to pull off the Kendrick

(01:37:28):
and ruffin uh project, Because you know, I've read a
lot of autobiographies of various Temptation members, and you know,
they don't look too fondly of that that reunion album
that came out in one So I don't know, I

(01:37:50):
would assume that, you know, when they're doing this album
with you in five um, that the sort of Temptations
proposed seven member reunion thing went a bust and they
both want their separate ways to do the separate projects.
But for you what was it like? You know, I

(01:38:11):
know that you two were big Temptations fans, but at
the time, you know, was it rose colored glasses like
it was exciting or maybe I don't know. We um
we were asked to open reopen the Apollo after the
Apollo had been closed for a bit for to be
a renovated rent and it was a big you know,

(01:38:32):
we Darren and I felt like it was a big honor.
It was you know, it was a charity event. It
was in New York City obviously, and uh, it was
a big honor to be asked, you know, to to
reopen the Apollo, and we wanted to do something special.
And so what we wanted to do was we wanted
to go back to the to some of the music
that kind of brought me and Daryl together back in
the sixties and that was our mutual love for the

(01:38:54):
Temptations and Eddie, you know, Eddie was Eddie's It was
a sweetheart. Eddie was playing in holiday inns in Alabama.
David David was David was. He was very challenging, challenging individual,
and but we managed to corral them together and we

(01:39:15):
told them flat out and they said, look, here's what
we want to do. We want to try to replicate
the thing that we remember as teenagers when you guys
were at your peak. We want to wear the suits,
we want to do the steps, we want to do
the whole thing. And we're on the stage at the Apollo.
We want to we want to try to recapture for

(01:39:35):
that moment. And it was really kind of in a way,
I mean not in a way, it was really it
was really me and Daryl wanting to to have that
experience of performing with our teenage idols on the stage
and kind of having this and to be honest with you,
it was it was one of the most amazing things
I've ever done, because it was like time had stopped

(01:39:59):
and instead of me being in my bedroom trying to
do the Temptation steps and singing those songs, I was
on the stage at the Apollo doing it with them,
and they were so cool about it, and they wanted
to do it so authentically. If you if you watch
the steps, they are exactly the same choreography and it
was just one of those things. And honest to god,

(01:40:19):
I it was a psychedelic moment. And by by that,
I don't mean taking drugs. What I mean is is
that I felt like I was watching myself. I felt
like I had gone out of my body and I
was watching myself do that. And it was really something
that I don't think I could ever you know, real well,
I can't really describe it any other bit way in that,

(01:40:41):
but it was just something that was just very, very
and that's when me and Daryl decided to step away.
After that. It was after that show. In the reception,
after the show, we were we were all the people
were coming around and everybody was saying, you know, how
great it was and all this, and I remember me
and Darryl sitting down together and we said, you know what,
probably a good time for us to just stop. Wow.

(01:41:05):
For us, it was a full circle. We had we
had met because of the temptations in a sense, and
now we were we had done that, and it really
felt like we had completed this thing in our in
our life. You know, but that's something in your mind
you wanted to do after the circle had completed, because
it seems like a whole era. So now I wanted
I wanted to live. I wanted to I wanted to

(01:41:27):
do all the things that I had never done. Um.
You have to remember I was on the road from
nineteen seventy two until six and I never ever stopped,
not one time. It was bricks and that whole time.
Had you made a list? And yeah, my list was was, uh,
live in a house, get married, to have a kid. Um,

(01:41:52):
and that's exactly what I did. I I saw everything
I owned. I moved to Colorado and I met my
future wife and we build a house and had a kid.
And for about ten years, I hardly did any music
and lived in the mountains and I kinda became a
different person. So it was just something I needed to do,

(01:42:14):
all right. One one last question I have. I know
that you're you once lived next door to Hunter S. Thompson.
What was that ship like psychedelics? Well, that's that's what
happened when I when when I when I left New
York City and I kind of started my life over again,
moved to Colorado. I was with my my girlfriend who

(01:42:36):
later became my wife, and we, uh we found a
little piece of property. She actually found it in Woody Creek, Colorado,
which is um and we were it was it was
just a piece of land with a little cabin and
we're going to build a house. And so I remember
one day we went out there to look at it
and we were standing with a real estate agent and

(01:42:59):
on the prop pretty and we heard a shotgun blast
and then on the on the roof of the cabin,
this metal roof, we heard all the shotgun pellets, young
like that, and we're like, what the hell is that?
And the real stage, Oh, that's your neighbor, Hunter Thompson.
He said, don't worry, he's fine. You'll you'll get to
meet him later. I was like, I said, is this

(01:43:20):
gonna be a problem and he said he said, no, no, no,
it's gonna be all right. And so we we ignored that.
And he's if you if you know anything about Hunter,
you know he had that red car Landark that he
drove in the Fear and Loathing that was park that
was parked in our cabin. He didn't own the property,

(01:43:41):
but that property had been abandoned for years, so he
just stuck his car in the little cabin. So we
were gonna take that cabin and converted into an apartment
where we could live while we built our house. So
I kept going up and knocking on his door because
he literally was right across the road. I would knock
on his door fully, you know, to introduce myself and say, hey, man,

(01:44:03):
we gotta get your car out of the cabin. And
he never answered the door ever, because he would sleep
all day and stay up all night, and I would
always go during the days. So finally I just the
keys were in the car. I put a jumper cables
on it, I jumped it, I started it, I drove
it up onto his lawn. I carked it directly in

(01:44:23):
front of his kitchen door, and I left it there.
And I knew him for twenty five years. He never
said a word to me about it. He did it.
He did it in the middle of the night. Yes,
were just appeared there something you We We used to
go up to his house and uh we used to

(01:44:44):
watch Monday night football with him and the sheriff, and
uh we said something normal like watch football. Oh, that
he was a major sports junkie. He was a huge
sports fan. That's all his whole thing. And then then
we went to the funeral to Johnny Depp died you
know where they shot his ashes out of the cannon
and all that. We were there for that. It was wow.

(01:45:06):
I didn't know they did it at the funeral. Just
who you want for a neighbor when you're trying to
get away from it. All right. He was actually you
know what though, he was actually a really good uh
a good guy. He he liked being Hunter Thompson. You know,
he liked he liked the image. You know, he liked
the hat and cigarette holder and the motorcycle with a

(01:45:27):
glass of bird you know, gin but down you know,
he was a Southern gentleman. He was from Kentucky and
if he liked you and it broke all that down.
He was he was really cool and he was really smart.
And now it was a real experience to have him
as a neighbor for over twenty years. Well, we thank
you for coming on the show and we have a
team Supreme, a little boss, Bill Sugar Steve like I

(01:45:50):
am quest of this be great, John Olds, thank you
very much. M West Love Supreme is a production of
I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio,

(01:46:11):
visit the i Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Hosts And Creators

Laiya St. Clair

Questlove

Popular Podcasts

Dateline NBC

Stuff You Should Know

The Breakfast Club

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}John Oates