Pharoahe Monch

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Quest. Love Supreme is a production of I Heart Radio.
Thanks the thing that fox up roll call in the
virtual senses. But yeah, you know, like if everybody just
went around did their thing without the yeas. Oh that's
the phone part. Part of roll call is laughing at

(00:22):
each other's roll call. The guest that there's live but
I recorded so they can hear it back. Figure it out.
I figure it out, all right, My good people. Welcome
to another episode of course Love Supreme, Life's great rabbit hole,
as I've been dubbing it. Um, my name is Coess Love,

(00:44):
your host, and of course we have a supreme effects.
We got ya. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I have to say ya.
You're in Los Angeles right now. How how's it going
for you out there? It's just I'm scared to answer

(01:05):
that question. I will say this. We are allowed by
the time this comes on air, you know, by the
time that comes on air, we'll be allowed to eat
outside again. Because I hear that we were the only
ones on in the country that couldn't go outside. Look
at these nails, couldn't get on. I went to a
black market nail salon. They had a black curtain on
the window. You had a knock on the door. This
is what we're doing, an underground Be careful, all right.

(01:30):
Or when I last booked, he was one of thirteen people.
Now that's one of eleven. I don't want the number
to go down the wand one in seven. We're getting better,
We're getting better. Be careful, all right, Sugar Steve. You cool? Yeah,
you know I'm in the same city you are, New
York were But things are probing for you. Got a
new network, a new show, you know. Yeah, I mean

(01:53):
everything's gone fine for me personally. But you know, cities
and mess, countries, a mess whatever if you've always been
a mess man. But you know that's mont that. I'm
not scared. Hold me, hold me anyway, I'm pay Billy bro.
I built the bar in my garage. Oh you ordered

(02:14):
online online. It has neon lights and ship Yeah. Yeah,
I needed something to do, so I did it. Just
a wonder one. You have a bar for one Yeah,
my kids said at it. It's a little misdirection. Yeah,
you want to keep your kids away from the bar. Yeah,
and just want to be able to drink in every

(02:35):
single room in his house, including the garage. Absolutely, So
we do COVID. We we'll see it one episode. We
just might have to take over drink Champs and you know,
bring out bring out the alcohol here love Supreme. You know,
was that a plug? I see La frowning that I
gave another podcast of plug. Anyway, how's it down in

(02:57):
North Carolina? Man, I'm Google Broen. It's good. Um. I mean,
they trying to open up the schools where they wait.
They thought about doing it because the kids had they testing,
like the state tests, and um, I didn't send my son.
I was just like, funk that, like, he ain't going,
and um they were just like, well, he can make
it up and we'll try to make it up later
in June whatever. I said, well, whatever, he ain't going.

(03:20):
And literally the next day after we like when we
pulled him, he was like because he's been home the
whole time. Literally the next day they had like two
cases pop up. And it's been they we do it now,
but we pretty much get texts and emails from the
principle every time a new case. And for about to
pass like two weeks, I've getten. It's been a new

(03:40):
case like every day, and so I'm you know, we've
been in the house, man, I mean I still do
my walks around the hood and everything, but I'm cooling,
bro ladies and gentlemen. We have a distinct honor of
dissecting and exploring the third rail. We're bringing if one
of the most I will say, probably one of the

(04:01):
most feared, respected and astonishing MC's. I don't don't. I
don't want to use uh bad localisms when describing great
you know, they always say, like, this person is a monster.
Oh man, he's a killer. No, probably an assassin. Yeah, yeah, no.

(04:23):
I feel our our guest today is probably one of
the most beautiful things about the culture of hip hop
be it as one half of one of the most
loved duos of the mid nineties with Organized Confusion. His
own catalog is nothing to sneeze at. Um. He's constantly

(04:44):
pushing the boundaries of what one can do in this
art form. He's usually the favorite of your favorite mcs.
I don't know if that's a entire cliche, Like I
wonder if m sees m ces get tired of hearing
themselves being nah nah man. That's an honor. I mean,
that's respected. That shows you respected by the people. They

(05:06):
really do the craft. You know what I'm saying, and
that's I mean, that's the eyes honor. Well, he's here
with us today, so please give it up for the
one and only Pharaoh. Much too bad, that's what I here.
I didn't want to see. Where are you right now?
I'm in the basement of the house and Queens, Uh,

(05:29):
just chilling out through a winter mix of snow and
ice right now, And like Fante said, man, I take
my walks and then it's back inside. You know, I'm
compromised because of mathematics, so I've just been like same here,
by the same here as well. I can't I can't
look around. So you've been loyal to Queens this entire

(05:49):
time for your whole career. Pretty much. I moved. I
moved out to l A for a couple of months
to work on stuff and it was cool for a
couple of on, then to Brooklyn and then back to Queens.
I'm back in Queen's um. Okay. So I know that
our audience cannot see your zoom right now, but I

(06:11):
will say, yeah, I was gonna say, of all of
our guests on the show, you probably have the most
interesting background right now. Well next to visit at least
um you have a very interesting action figure collection behind
you right now. Like, yeah, I kind of lost my
mind during this pandemic. Uh well, like I said, I've

(06:33):
been diligent, so all I could do is like all
the stuff and go crazy. So I went batshit crazy
with the action figures and they kind of it worked. Man,
they keep me kind of stable. Man. I love my
action figures. There's some real pieces that I caught, uh
cat on Instagram who I followed, Uh put me onto

(06:54):
a lot of a lot of different dope joints and
a lot of different companies, and I just lost my mind.
Like I just got these uh these air Jordan's for
my Miles Morales in the mail just now, like you know,
so I just wait, wait a minute, actual Jordan's. You're
dressing up your action figures in Jordan's exactly. And they're

(07:15):
just as they're rare to get as well. They're hard
to get. They're hard to get. Um, they just they
just redid a couple of companies who are doing them
custom for the for the you know, Miles Morale, Spider Man.
Please tell me, please tell me they're not the same
price as no no, no, no, no no, no, yes, just

(07:36):
five hundred dollars. Not no, that's interesting. So like you're
your your your passions with the action figures, any anything
else in the in the pop culture kind of barrel.
I mean, I'm not a collector, a little bit on

(07:57):
the sneaker side, but I calmed down with that. You
got a little bit ridiculous. I'm not ahead, but I
will catch a couple of pieces if it's if it's
something interesting. But this during this whole thing, man, it's
since been movies and action figures and action figures. What's
the last joint? What's the last jument you saw? Movie

(08:19):
wise talking, I mean, I've been watching a lot of
stuff over and over again on repeat, revisiting, revisiting, and
what I really really blew me away was the Mandalorian.
That just took me. You know, I waited so long

(08:39):
for the Star Wars series to get good, and I
never thought it would, and the movies were starting to
get so disappointing. But then this series was just like
it was. It was good and bad in the way.
I felt like I had the weight, so I get
got this old for them to get this good with it,
you know, So Mandalorian is worth investing in. Yes, yeah, Yeah,

(09:00):
I'm gonna ask you when it it get you like
when it was? When it when it the was the
episode one was it? It was off the rip like, yeah,
I was, I was shining away from getting that, uh
the Disney app. I'm like I'm not, yes, And then
everybody kept talking about it, and uh yeah it was
worth Mandalorian, It's worth getting the app for it's that good.
And yeah, I'm gonna make a suggestion, bro, if you

(09:22):
have a chance, whenever you get a chance, check out
the sound of metal. I think you would love it.
Oh that's the that's the joint where the drummer losers
just hearing. Yeah, man, that ship, Oh my god, story again.
You know, I'm like, for real, No, it's a it's
a your boy Riz I met and he plays a
drummer that loses here it's heavy metal drummer and I mean,

(09:45):
you know, it's every musician's worst nightmare. But that ship
is a great fucking flick. It's it's a beautiful flick.
Which streaming service is that it's on Amazon? Like the
whole the whole sounds, the whole sounds gaping of how
they show you how now the sound design that ship

(10:06):
is amazing. Yeah, all right, I'm on it. I gotta
see it. I gotta see it. I just got done
Small Acts, so I haven't watched all of them. I
watched the Lover's Rock one, but I haven't seen all
the other ones. Okay, yeah, yeah, watching in order. Everyone's
most Jamaicans that I know rock with the second one,

(10:29):
Lover's Rock. Okay, I'm got that because the other that's
a very unique joint. Yeah, but I think you'll you'll
you'll like it, like, okay, but if we shout now
We'm a shout out night in Miami, and then I'm done. Okay, Okay,
Riverdale one night in Miami. You're just watching Riverdale. Steve.
That's pretty good, Steve. Steve is good for like it's

(10:50):
Steve will be like real, like nonchalis with like most
pop culture things. But then he'll just come back with like, yeah,
I watched Real house Wives of Atlanta or I don't
watch that, but I have a question though, um, and
then hopefully we could get into the show. Yeah. Uh,

(11:11):
Mandalorian has something to do with Star Wars. Don't star
Wars been fell off and they're lucky that we're still
talking about them forty years about a little Yoda. I
mean he's not Yoda. It's not Yoda, but baby Yoda. Yeah,
I mean yeah. Mandalorian is like their series on the

(11:31):
Disney Channel, and apparently it's as good, at least to
the people in my age that are real Star Wars heads,
like they're they're very happy with the results. Better than
the last three Star Wars movies. Okay, I'm on about
one of them that I liked, but I don't know
which one that was. And don't worry about it. And
you forgot it already, only saw it once you saw

(11:52):
Return the Jet of fifteen times. Okay, Oh no, I
don't mean those three. I'm talking about the of the
j j Abrams variety, that one anyway. All right, So
with okay, were you born in Queens, Yes, sir, going
and raised Queens, New York, Jamaica, Jamaica, South Side, Jamaica.

(12:12):
What Okay, So only my New York knowledge is just
limited to whatever rappers rapping at the moment. So like
what was your peer area? Like, like who what notable
mcs that you would know of that that you knew
of before you became notable or they became notable. I mean,

(12:32):
I was ahead, man, It's like and I'm in a
molder ship. So I came up there in the park mirror.
So I was like, you know, urban legend dudes like
Grandmaster Vic and and the Boss Crew and just local
hip hop crews that we're doing Park James that I
was you know, inspired by and like nah said, like

(12:54):
just way too afraid to ever get on the mic
in those moments. And then it shifted to Mikey D,
the incredible Mikey D and the l L Era and
I still was too afraid to get on the mic
and those jams and wasn't ready. And then by the
time you know, I started going to high school and
develop an organized confusion, you know. Uh, that's when it

(13:18):
was like, uh, you know, large pro and lost boys
and all those cats in the in the area, right,
So you were there for the first you you have
memories of the first generation of hip hop in Queens.
Oh definitely. I mean I was, I was shorty, but
it was it was cats jamming. I mean that's what

(13:38):
we attracted me to the whole thing. Like, you know,
not to sound cliche, but you can hear the music
rocking from down the block and you know, crowds and
forties and you know, you just it'll never go back
to that. And it was an air about that and
even the danger of the shootouts and you know, it's

(14:00):
just a different time and a different feeling and uh, culturally,
at that point, I was like, I need to be
a part of this, but I just wasn't ready. Okay,
what was your family into, Like what what type of
household did you grow up in? What was your your
home situation? Um? Yeah, man, both parents gospel on the

(14:21):
mom's side, jazz on the pop side. My older brother
was heavy into the rock, which is you know, while
I gravitated to that a lot, you know, deep purple Zeppelin,
Rush and all the whole rest of it. Then my
next brother was like, you know, James Brown and Funk,

(14:42):
and my sister was Michael Jackson. So I had the
whole gamut, and I just, you know, just that whole
seventies thing. I think we all did, and just soaked
it all in. You know, were your parents native New
Yorkers now there from Virginia and they moved to New
York when they had me. You're the youngest I know

(15:05):
this yet, do you remember the first album that you
purchased or was it all just trickled down from your
older brothers and sisters hip hop album or album? This album?
I want to we'll start that because I haven't come
to Jesus moment with hip hop. So your very first record,
my first record I purchased was Saturday Night Shiva. Okay,

(15:32):
that's real why I got that ship when I was seven,
you know you Okay, that's understandable. Concert Wise, do you
remember your first one? Did you go to concerts a
lot when you were a kid or see performances? I didn't.

(15:53):
I wasn't a big concert goer when when I and
I regret it, you know, because I missed so many
opportunities and I'm so ashamed, like, uh, I never I
never saw a prince live, Like it's just so I
know your relationship with that guy. But it's just things
like that that I that I regret. Also, you know,

(16:17):
it was we were in Queens and it was a
journey to get to where everything was anyway, So I
was kind of like no du too, So I wasn't
venturing out that much back then like that. Okay, So
what was your come to Jesus moment, at least with
hip hop as far as that's concerned, Like, were you

(16:38):
just casually rapping around the way or was this the
thing where you were watching them sees on the block
and decided that's what I want to do. Like what
was your introduction to that world? I was. I was
a crazy ill asthmatic, and I knew I had to
make a choice that wasn't physical in terms of what
I was gonna do with my my life. Ms of

(17:00):
my livelihood wasn't happening. Fire Man wasn't happening, The Gulbridge
Man wasn't happening. So I was an artist. So I
went to a high school art and design, Big Up
to Kwamie, Big Up, the Prodigy, Mob Deep School. Yeah,
I went to that same school, and in that school

(17:21):
was just a plethora of culture, black books, graffiti, just
hip hop. Culture was rich at the time, and I just,
you know, before it became you know cool, even the
BNMC or get a record deal, I knew I had
to be invested in the culture. So I'm very thankful

(17:42):
for those moments because you know, I was pop blocking,
and you know, I was I was way too heavy
to get on the ground and do a windmill or
some ship. So I knew I couldn't be a breakdancwer,
but I was just trying to get into the culture
however I could in that time frame, and it was
around eleventh grade that I was like, fuck the art ship,

(18:08):
express myself through this, this, this, this hip hop. Even
then I was beatboxing. I didn't you know, I had
no voice, I was. I was horrible at it. Matt
Prince Poe had my friend tie Stick, who had turntables,
and I was like, yo, let's go and try and
develop something. Uh made a couple of demo tapes, took

(18:29):
him home and listened to him. And I'm thankful again
to be able to listen. You know. I listened back
to those tapes when I took him home, and I
was like, you're horrible at this ship, you know, and
I do. It was the whacking ship I ever heard.
But I was lucky. I was lucky to be able
to hear that I wasn't good and it didn't sound

(18:53):
like the dudes in the park, and it didn't sound
like the stuff on the radio, which made me say,
you gotta work at this, bro, you know. I was
able to say that to myself to flight. Let anybody
hear what we were doing. But when you and Poe,
who's the oldest between y'all, I'm probably the oldest about
a couple of months. Yeah, okay, well y'all, y'all and

(19:13):
y'all both went to the same school. Y'all was in
the same class, wet and both of you are art majors.
Oh Man. Back then they had what was called rotations,
so we were able to do photography, computer graphics, architecture.
It was just the school is an amazing you know,

(19:34):
ray of different cultures from kids from different backgrounds. It
really shaped obviously a lot of the people who went
to that school, So that was a blessing in itself.
I know, or at least I know from the fooklore
of it all that I believe you were one of
the last artists to work with Paul C. And I

(19:56):
assume that this is pre organized or at least pre
record deal, pre Hollywood basics. Where where did he enter
the story and how? You know, he's one of the
most loved mythical figures that I've heard of in a
hip hop. Like everyone has these incredible words, but I
can never get any story about his work ethic or

(20:18):
anything about him, like what was his role in Uh, well,
you were simply too positive before organized confusion, right, I believe? Yeah, man,
we were. We were simply too positive. We had just
left like a local label situation and went off on
our journey to start working on our first demo. I

(20:39):
thought I was finding my voice at the moment. I
was starting to get some props with the bars as
an m C and we went into the legendary twelve
twelve to work on some demos. In twelve twelve at
the time was probably seventeen year old large professor in

(21:00):
the corner just on a machine. I didn't know what
he was doing. And we had went to the studio
with some records, lay some vocals, and during the time
we were laying vocals, Paul C was an engineer at
twelve twelve as well as a producer. He walked into
our session to get some wires and he was like,
part of the excuse me, I don't mean and throw up.

(21:21):
The session got some wise and he left. Next day
I got a phone call from him. I don't know
how he got the number, and he was like, I
heard what y'all was doing. I think y'all got talent.
I would love to work with y'all. I had asthma attack.
I was so excited. Did you was was he at

(21:43):
least you know, I don't know what year this was.
Was this at least post Ultra Magnetic? Yeah? Right, he
had that. He had that status of working with Ultra
super Love ac uh and even um maybe some early
rock him stuff at the time, if I if I if,

(22:04):
I can't remember. So it was just you know, if
if you can imagine, it was just like the ultimate
phone call. So we went in and work with him,
and I brought in some different things that we were
working on, and uh, he was a stickler for truncation
and programming. You know, gave a lot of two lads

(22:25):
too large and I credit both of them for a
lot of that early SP twelve hundreds uh manipulation. Uh,
it was very early on and they were really doing
some real amazing work with that. And why I love
Paul C is that I went in to do a

(22:46):
song and like a lot of mcs at that time,
I went past the six team bar measure. He stopped
the session, closes the session and sends me home. Like
when you learned how to count bars, come back and
talk to me. And I thought I would, you know,

(23:08):
I was getting a little name at the time and
nobody had ever told me some ship like that. But
he was just like, who's your favorite you know artists.
I'm like peeves, like, go listen to those records, learn
how to fucking rap, learn how to count. Until you
do that, don't come back to the studio. So that
was the first like dude who wasn't a yes man

(23:31):
and started to help us shape our voices and understand
how to make records. Um, we made really really four
good songs for the demo with him that went on
to touch Barbato's hands and Russell Simmons hands and you know.
But more than that, you know, he just used to

(23:53):
invite us to his crib. He had a record, insane
record collection, played drums. It's like, even in this conversation,
there's no need to mention that he was white, because
he was just an entity of like some soul spirit
or some ship, you know, and so funky and whatever.

(24:15):
And uh, back then, was that uh the novelty like yo,
how is this white boy no our ship better than us?
Or like how you know, you know, it's funny. Man,
It's like, you know, you have to put these things
in context in that moment, I don't. I don't think
we gave a funk, Like we really didn't. Like it

(24:37):
wasn't even yeah, it wasn't even a question. We were
just like, we need good ship. And I think too,
you know, and I think too. At that time, hip
hop was so kind of young. I don't even know
if we were thinking about it as quote unquote hours
you know what I'm saying in terms of black people, like, yo,
this is our ship. It was. It was so new

(24:57):
that if you found someone else that was in to it,
whether they were black, white, whatever, it's just like, oh
they fun with hip hop just like me. Like didn't
happen until later on, right, And so uh, we we
developed a personal relationship outside of the music. I remember
us going to see Batman and you know and putting

(25:18):
the raising as in the popcorn and like you're not
up on this, I'm like raising this in the part.
You know, just cool, cool moments. And then the tragedy
is we finished the demo. It was it was touching
people's hands and we were getting up buzz and he
got murdered and that's kind of like the first of

(25:39):
a line of kind of like traumatic tragic things that happened.
And so me and Prince you know, had to go
forward and try to get a record deal, but we
didn't have our guy are kind of guide. And that's
why that first album is like really kind of experimental,
because in that moment, we lost the master ranger and

(26:05):
we just was like taking records to the studio and
ship and loop and stuff and just doing ideas and
you know, I went back to the bar count you know, yeah,
out of gases that was no bark out. So basically,
had had a situation not turned out, had it turned out,

(26:30):
he would have probably been the main producer of Organized
Confusion absolutely. Wow wow wow wow. Yeah. Well that's the
thing now. The way that The Source first introduced you
guys to the world, like they made such a big
deal of Disney having a record label that you know,

(26:57):
it was kind of like, wait a minute, there's a
rap group one, like like the way they did it,
I didn't see it as like Hollywood basic, like just
I don't even know why they had to put like
a subsidiary of Disney Records. So I kind of like
pushed it to the side, like I lowered my expectations
a lot, and I jumped on the you know, once

(27:17):
I heard instrumentals and whatnot, then it was like, Yo,
that Disney rap group really dope. Like I just kept
because I think because wrap the only thing they had
on Hollywood was like it was y'all And I remember
your Life's Group, like the the Jail Niggers made the
album yea Life Was Group. I produced the record for them.

(27:39):
Me and Princess produced the record for those groups, and
we literally went into the prison and had to do
that ship. That's a whole another of them I've never heard,
so you know, we're on the label and we got
a little buzz you know from you know, underground ship

(28:01):
Pudge Budge, YadA YadA, and they're like, yo, you know
Dave funking Klein. Let me just give you a little
history on him, right. It's responsible for like Brain Tribe
and Jungle Brothers over to the Europe scene, very instrumental
and in that whole thing and breaking a lot of

(28:23):
things over there in Europe. Um, he's dead. He was
that dude, and he was a visionary and I guess
he got himself a record label over there and got
himself a nice team with Tim Reid, you know, and
so it was it was, it was live. They just
didn't have this aesthetic, you know, the aesthetic was but

(28:46):
wait a minute, the same Tim ready yea that he
will never share with me. Do you have it? Do
you have it? So um going to the prison Rowways

(29:07):
stayed prison in New Jersey. The group was called Lifeless
Group because all the members was doing life sentences. Day
funking client thought this would be a great idea because
you don't get no harder then cats that are doing
life in prison. And I was like, I don't know

(29:29):
if this is a good idea. Hey, cut the check,
will go produce the record. And I never forget going
in there my first time in uh maximum security prison.
They slammed the gates behind us, and they tasked me

(29:49):
and Prince with picking from ten inmates the five that
would be in the group. Can you already see the
tragic stake that that is. So these guys had to
rap and we had to pick which ones it was
the best. Wow, I was like, this is this is
this is gonna go terribly wrong. And uh, I remember,

(30:17):
you know, we picked the five wait for a week
working on the music that we're working on the songs.
When we go to come back, we're like, what's up
with the other two guys we picked? Shanked no, no
in the group, you have to pick another two? And

(30:40):
it was it was that wild and so you did
y'all like make the beats in the prison and everything,
or like tracking everything. We we we tracked some stuff
in the prison board, like you know, um portable recorder
to the prison for them to record. Oh my god,
y'all killing me. I never heard all the years we've

(31:04):
known each other, I had no idea you could group dude. Yeah. Man,
we did two songs on that project. Yeah, I kind
of find Wow. Did like you ever keep in touch
with it those guys afterwards that they write or whatever
or you did next You know, you should see the

(31:28):
look in his eyes, like next question we wo okay,
So were there any other options besides Hollywood Basic? And
why were they chosen to be the home of Organized confusion.
Barbato was in aur at Jeff Jams at the time.

(31:48):
He was like, this demo is insane. I love this demo.
I love these guys. I just did uh him and
stretched up the day he's still you know, my people
and my fams. It's been so many years. We we
we we've been tight and cool. And he had the
demo and he had Nass demo. He took them to Rustle.

(32:08):
He was like, these two demos are amazing and Russell
Simmons rejected both demos positive, simply too positive and not
turn them both down. And then um, we were like,
what are we gonna do? What are we gonna do?
Got the offer from Hollywood Basic that was kind of

(32:32):
really nice, offered for underground hip hop back then, and
we were like heyn will will will fly to both
fly the Disney landing and you know and record whatever.
And then last minute, I've seen Russell in the club
and he was like, you know what I've been listening
to you guys, demo call me tomorrow. Let's have a conversation.

(32:57):
So we're like, oh ship death Jams, oh ship and uh.
We called Russell Simmons the next day to talk about
a deal and he said, first off, simply too Positive
is the worst fucking name in hip hop that I've
ever heard of. Gotta change the name, Gotta change the name.

(33:22):
We were like nas STP you know STP, you know
the oil and even like that sh it is the
most funked up name I've ever heard in hip Hopsease,
no way I'm signing out with that name. Alright, we
got to come up with a better name. You gotta
come up with real name. That's how we to organized.

(33:46):
Confusion took us forty eight hours. See an organized confunction
record organized. That's how you name the group organized gives
yep from the conca yep. We were like oxy moron
boo boo boo. Sounds good. You're there's something that you
could do these moves. I could do that move, you

(34:07):
can wear this, so I can wear that. Wow, let's
do it. And you went back to russel of like okay,
we changed our names, so now what's uppen? Okay, we
change our names. Now what's up? Uh? You us like
eighty gram basic deal was like hunter and fifty grand

(34:29):
and so we took the money. Hey, okay, as you
damn where's you're there? I see because this is what
the ninet what like you remember like but it was
probably right yeah, because oh that period, I will, I will,

(34:53):
you know, I just feel like I heard these rumors
are getting shelves and ship never coming out and these
horror stories, and I was like, I don't want to
go down that road. You know that's crazy. Well, at
least then because I know, like Riek and I used
to dream of being on death Jam, like yeah, so

(35:13):
it's such a like going to Motown like so for
you to make the what you felt was the wiser
decision of the group, I mean that that's that says
a lot of what was deaf Jam at the time.
For you to walk away from dis fabled hip hop
utopian space and just go to Mickey Mouse's new home,

(35:39):
I'd a lot. I've made more terrible decisions on the
way on the road too, But I don't know, man,
I don't know if that I don't know if it
would have worked out. Who's to say? You know? Um?
Do you you know? I know at least from if
I get it a little bit, then I know you
get it a lot. Do you kind of roll your

(36:00):
eyes at like super fans who salivate over you know?
I mean there's so much, especially with well, I guess
with all three with with equal Knox and stress in
or and the self titled record The Folklore of It
or like is it. I know, like sometimes Arka is frustrated,

(36:24):
where like every MC after MC comes up and praises
is work. But then it's like you don't necessarily see
the evidence of of you know, your heart work. And
I mean, does it get tiring here in that year
after year of like how much you influenced me and
how much you influenced me, and yet this couldn't translating

(36:46):
the cells and you know, at least to that level
of what it was back in Definitely. I think after
the first record we were a little bit perplexed because
we we so a little bit of you know, play
and whatever, but we were inexperienced. So we talked it

(37:07):
off to that, you know, I'm wanting to believe you
have to stay in love with the ship. But I
can see how during that era a lot of cats
were finding out more and more about the industry. Was
kind of I'm not sure about this girl anymore, like
kind of falling out of love with it. And I
kind of decided that I can't do this unless you're

(37:29):
gonna love it, love it, love it, love it regardless
too the outcome, And so I stayed in love and
we moved on from the self titled record to the
Stress Record. I think we you know, started to really
find our voices around that record, you know, got a

(37:49):
little more love and pushed a little more forward with
with the Stress Record and a couple of joints off
there in terms of folklore and different songs on that record,
and then I think, you know, we had it with
Mickey Mouse after that record, and then um, we moved

(38:11):
on to uh yeah, we moved on to priority where
it was. It was weird because at the time they
they had kind of signed a bunch of established people
and they I didn't see where they didn't break any records,
and I was feeling like we still needed to be
broken as a group, even though we were two albums deep.

(38:35):
And we worked on that last one and we really
put a lot into it, you know, I was trying
to do this whole story thing and back forward, you know,
put a lot effort into it, a little bit of love,
a lot a bit of love. I think people saw it.
It's very difficult to do those type of records and
make them make sense anyway. M Yeah. You know a

(39:02):
lot of people would be like, yo, that's my favorite
one of the three. But you know, it's my favorite
one of the three, which one Eudox because that was
that came out like nineties seven. So that was my
freshman year at Central, and I remember getting my refund
check and running the goddamn Willie's represent tapes. I bought

(39:22):
a gang of ship equidox. Remember when I first Yeah,
I remember when I first met you. You were like,
y'all a lot of record and a lot of skits
and so on and so forth. Yea, who did yeah?
Who did the Sir Winston Howard? Who was that? No? No, no,
so my my, my, my guy, Brian Fleming, who's a writer. Now,

(39:46):
he found this guy in the neighborhood, Like I think
he was in the liquor store and this dude was
like and he was like, hey man, you want to
do some skits on this album? Wow? You just had
his voice and uh we just yeah, hey, um it
just it just hit me that, Um I believe the

(40:09):
first time that I heard of O C was on
your first Yeah. So how yeah? How did how did
he get down with the click? And had moved from
Brooklyn across the street from from me in the neighborhood.

(40:31):
You know, back then we were playing you know, two
hand touched in the street and still playing basketball and
all that ship, and you know, I would knock on
people's doors and be like, yo, we're get in the game.
You want to play him? You know. One day he
was like, yo, I rat and I was like, oh God.

(40:52):
And he rhymes and I was like, holy shit, oh ship,
this kid might be a problem. And we just you know,
started hanging out and we would we would trade and
spa and he would be like, yoall wrote something. And
he would come over to the house do versus and
wrap over, you know, pause tapes and sit and I

(41:15):
was like, yo, man, you you got it, man, you
got something special. I just think he for me. OHC
always had a a knack for pocket, you know, just
just command of pocket that I could never obtain. It's
just something people have that's just they lock in, you know. Wow.

(41:37):
So yeah, he lived right across the street from me.
On the the Stress album, I always wanted to know this.
This shows you how much of a do we by am.
I believe your Stress review and the source was the

(42:00):
infamous Tupac Hell Raiser issue m H. And I also
believe that they had you right. Hip hop's very first
op ed I believe. Yeah, when you talk about like
the rhymes you erode and you clicked on the sp
and that's funny, you remember that part. I just remember
the Chinese chicken wing take out Chinese food reference reference.

(42:28):
That's so how different we are super nerves remember the
food reference. No that you know that was not history,
won't won't pan out? How crucial that that issue of
the Source was too hip hop's future? Um, you know,

(42:51):
because basically I feel like that that Tupac cover is
what built the myth and the legend of Tupac, and
you know, it's one of their highest selling issues. But
I also remember it simply because the the you know,
you guys have to leave review for that album, and

(43:12):
you know, that's the first time that I heard of
like like a separation, Like okay, so there's underground hip
hop and then there's accessible, easy to understand hip hop.
You know. It was almost as if the reviewer of
the album was kind of at a crossroads because he

(43:35):
in his heart felt that this was the perfect album
he was listening to, but because he knew that it
was gonna go over everyone's heads, he might have to
take a mic away. So it was it was almost
like we got four Mike, Yeah, I got four, I
remember that right. But he basically said I would give
this album a five, but because this is so above

(43:57):
the head of anyone else that it, you know, I
just have to take a mic away because it's too smart.
I was crushed. That's another That's another moment where I
was like, you know what, I don't know if I
want to do this anymore, because I'm starting to see
that this ship is not based on the merits so

(44:22):
and so that those are the things like in the relationship,
if you will, with the music, you start to question
your commitment and your love to it, and you have
to keep re assessing and and recommitting yourself to it.
But that was one of the moments I was like,
you're gonna start this article off with I would have

(44:45):
gave them, and I kept I kept like I guess
I um vicariously was living through you guys, you know,
because at that moment we were just starting to make
our record. And then you know, when I read that,
I was like, oh man, he's basically saying that this
album is too smart for its own good. And had

(45:10):
they just did a little bit of terra firma down
to earth, like make it normal. I would have easily
shown why this is a five mic record, and that
always horned me. But I never ever got to ask
you how that felt like you're dope, but you're you're
too dope, so we have to penalized, penalize you for that.

(45:33):
It was crushing. I mean, I don't I don't know
if I I don't know if I expected a five.
It was a solid record, and I thought we had
a chance to get a five. And then, you know,
I would have been fine if you wouldn't have put
that bit in there, like, oh, these guys almost moved

(45:54):
me to a pool. But I'm not going to do
that because you wrapped about part of Colds of Molecules
and fucking right. You know, do you remember who the
writer was on that review? Was it like the original
mind squad? Dude? Yeah, it was damn that that's the one.
Was it wrun real ship? My? My, my, my sources

(46:18):
at at work? All right. I remember at the time,
Pharaoh you, Um. I read an interview around the time
of Equal NOx and you were saying that, Um. I
think Poe was saying, like, yo, let's get back in
the studio, let's go at it again. And you told
him like, look, man, I gotta be real, like my
heart really and in this ship you know right now.

(46:39):
Um what was that like? Yeah it was I can't
remember what it was. It Yeah, he was, and I
read it. I was like, damn, like he being real,
you know what I'm saying. Um, But yeah, what was
that like for for you and Poe? Kind of that Um,
for y'all to both be in different places, and um,

(46:59):
how did that affect you both? You know, personally and
professionally in terms of your relationship. I mean, we're good
and we was good. Then I felt it only right
to go to him, you know, talk to him how
I was feeling. I was crushed at the results of
the last record. We put a lot into it. It
ended it ended with the group getting dropped from priority

(47:23):
and that kind of hurt my ego. But UM, gave
me some time, Uh after we worked so hard on
that record, and I was like, I definitely, you know,
talking to myself and flipping on it, I definitely don't
feel like going back in the studio right now. That's
the last thing I want to do. So I need
some time to kind of recoup and assess my relationship

(47:50):
with music again, because I knew it was important. You know,
you need to love love, love, you need to love
this ship, and I knew I loved it, but I
need to needed to take a step back, and um,
you know, I had that discussion when him, I'm like,
I'm tapped out, Like I'm really tapped out. I need
to take a hiatus. And during that time, I realized

(48:14):
that I just had a lot of personal things that
if I was to um recommit myself to this, that
I needed to get off my chest that I even
felt would be unfair to drag him into, because you know,
in the group, you're sharing so much, and you're you're

(48:37):
making these uh compromises, and you're making these uh you know,
decisions collectively to put records together. And I just came
out on the other side like I really felt it
would be selfish to drag him, feel like I would
be dragging him into these ideas that I was having.

(48:58):
And so I went back to him and and and
was like, Yo, I think I'm gonna try to vomit
some of this uh stuff out, and he, uh, he
was like, yo, man, you got my blessings, you know
what I mean. So I went on that journey. I
have actually three cree creative questions about you're working the

(49:20):
organized confusion, Well for starters, how do you guys build
ideas and your songs? Is it? Well? First of all,
even with the production, you know, do you guys work
on beat separate or is it? Was it a collaborative effort?
And that that like, does the concept of the song

(49:41):
come at the beginning or does it just whoever adds
the verse first, then that's the concept of the song.
As soon as we landed the deal, we went out
and got hundreds and we started just banging out beats
with with the crew of cats and queens as well.
Who who were the organisms and they were they were

(50:02):
working on music as well. And I started going out
to these record conventions, the famous record conventions that you know,
Finesse and Large and Salaman Tip and everybody would be
at and I would see them in there, and then
my heroes and it would be buying these eighty dollar

(50:22):
records and I would be like, wow, that must be nice,
and we would, you know, look for stuff. And then
once I developed a relationship with those dudes, they started
to be like, you got this, you got this. You
know this guy, you know this guy, you got this.
You need to get this, and started to you know,
begin to get my chops up with on the dig inside,

(50:46):
and we started to you know, produce all music, and
I gravitated to what I knew was was, you know,
my brothers again, the weather Report and a lot of
the Fusion Ship, which kind of the landscape of things
I wanted to wrap over personally, and so I just

(51:11):
started putting stuff together and taking it to the studio
and trying to make it better and get in with
the right you know, engineers and things like that. So
Prince would make a beat, we would make a beat together.
We would be like what is this? You know, we
just sit there and be like what it is this
song saying? And what are we doing? And or I
would come with a concept and be like, what if

(51:33):
we're unborn fetuses and the mothers? That was my ship
to the in vitro nigger. I ran, man, I ran
the hell out of damn so so and then um,
you know, shout out the buck wild um. And then
around that same time we're working on too man. Was
crazy that decisions. Thank you Anton Puchowski was was bringing

(51:59):
live in intrumentations to a lot of the early ship
and just pushing us along. And it was a collective
effort to answer your answer your question. So I always
wanted to know, um, because you guys were so advanced, um,
like way past where ultimate Medic was taking it. Because

(52:20):
you guys were so advanced and sort of wrapping outside
the boundaries of you know, outside the boundaries, coloring outside
the lines. Was it frustrating to to have such not
not limitations as far as what hip hop music could
have been. But I would always have I would have
I could imagine. I always thought of you guys as

(52:42):
sort of like advanced there at hip hop like future.
Well that's the time I'm saying, you guys are a
future hip hop that kind of got stuck with a
palette of limited music output. Like if if you guys
could easily figure out ways to program that's twelve hundred
so that you could rhyme seven eight meter here and

(53:04):
then slow down there, and things that you could easily
do now on pro tools and and you know, and
reasonable yeah, and all these So was it or even
things like you know where ghost Face just rhymes over
an album like I always wanted to know, like Ship,
if you guys could rhyme over Frank Zappa for my
visa orchestra, just like you guys would have been those people.

(53:28):
So like, was there ever musical moments that you tried
an idea that was just like way to ahead of
his time at least uh technology wise. I was frustrated then,
which is which made me happy because I knew what
I wanted to do was expansive, you know. And I
would listen to bands and they would play a groove

(53:50):
at a tempo and then break it down and do
it beautiful transition into a slower, more beautiful tempo. And
I was like, how am I you know, how are
we going to achieve this with what we're trying to do.
And that's kind of what brought about that Hypnotical Gases song,
which starts at one tempo and goes and goes into
another tempo. We didn't know how to program and at

(54:12):
the time, so um we started off with that one
loop that that that slow loop and goes goes into
the fusion Ship. I remember Anton Kachowski having to cut
the two ins take in order to you know, get
this ship to work and you think back to things

(54:34):
like that, and he's literally like, I gotta get this
ship right, you know, he's literally slicing the tape. I know,
y'all know, you know. And I wanted to go and
I wanted to go into the fast beat as if
the band was was was doing that. You know, That's
that one was in my head. But I had no

(54:55):
other way to achieve it, you know what I'm saying, Like,
I didn't know how to you know, it's kind of
brings this full circle, you know, moving forward. I didn't
know how to achieve that in the terms of the
programming in a sample time. Um, I don't believe we
had nine fifties at the time, you know. So I'm like,
how are we gonna get this idea out of my head?

(55:17):
And we did it, and it's it's one of the
records that Organistic Fusion is most known for. Okay with
without without without without want to be starting something. How
frustrating was it for you as an MT as a
power motherfucker's love? You know, I mean I've been I've

(55:41):
been doing this sothing for a little while. Man. Yeah, yeah,
how how frustrating was it for you? To hear just
you know, without being condescending like mortal mortal hip hop
fans just salivate over I gave you power when when

(56:03):
you did straight Bullet like years already did straight bullet
like how and didn't have to tell people that you
were good. That's something I hate it, but I gave
you power. It's like I'm a motherfucking o NA song.
I was gonna yeah hipop hybody anybody ever told nas

(56:27):
that that people hate that intro to that between between
I gave you power and the way that Dre says
NAS name Na fucking motherfucking Drake and at the word yeah,

(56:47):
but that's sorry. I took half of my golfer just
for those two intros. Yeah, but basically, like um, you know,
it brings it, it brings it back so many just
what we're dealing with today. From our leans, the fucking
the lore and the love we got for Stray Bullet

(57:08):
was just insane. You know. We would perform that record
and it would be like the crowd would be like insane.
So from our leans we were getting the love and
the props from that record and the writing and the reviews,
we were like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, um, when I
gave you the power came out, I was like, oh

(57:28):
my god, that fucking it's fucking Premier, Like what can
you say? And then um and then naz is like
one of my favorite mcs, like like like literally that
just so the the rush of people that came to
us like hey, good your ship man. But but as

(57:52):
as I don't think he didn't don't right, And that
that was That was another thing. The crew the crews were.
The crews were interconnected in a different way because O
C was with Searchlight and it was you know, but
just for real, as a as an artist, I didn't

(58:15):
I didn't feel a way like oh man, you know,
I just I didn't get those feelings from it. It's like,
you know, as Tarik says, like some still shop and
still shipping and what you're gonna do next. I say
that to say later in life, I find myself in

(58:36):
the back seat of a range Rover with not As
having a conversation and now says, you know what, man,
A lot of people you know what I mean said,
you know, they came to me, they said, yo, man,
you know Pharaoh man did that ship before you man?
And you know we had a lot of similar ship
D so you know, as the foundation, you know, we

(59:01):
need to you know, we need to. So we had
a discussion about it, um, but yeah, I never really
felt like, oh my god, that's my concept, Like I
never really felt that way. You know, I still maintain
that NAS. I don't think NAS listens two that much,

(59:22):
at least most of them season. I know that on
that level, I don't agree with you because I don't
listen to I don't it's like a handful of people
that I listened to when I'm reporting, and then even
listen to people's com anymore as artists, you know what
I mean. You're yeah, seas experts. How you're gonna be
such an expert on because I listened in the off season.

(59:44):
But when usually when you're creating your thing, you're you're
in your own you don't want to listen to other people,
so that you don't. But if it happened afterwards, yeah,
I'm listening to stuff like you have to listen so
you know what not to do. Nothing else is more
of just kind of a it's like all right, if
I know, like if I'm working on the album now,

(01:00:05):
I'll listen to Pharaoh album be like, Okay, I know
not to do this because he covered that already, you
know what I mean. That's as far as has has
Riek ever told you. I I know for a fact
that a big part of Tarik's development, especially on things
fall apart, like you know, I mean there's a period

(01:00:27):
for those that listen to the show, and I guess
I can ask you this, uh as well, Phararell. If
you're if you're creating this music in the mid to
late nineties and and the early arts, um, you know,
there's usually in your head like a jury that you imagine,

(01:00:48):
you know, listening to this and that you have to
have it to that standard. So I know for a
fact that Jesus Christ, like Tarik would run the she
it out of Equinox like every night at like religiously,
like that was his that was his rocky music to

(01:01:10):
get him hype for the show, like literally like it
was like I gotta get to this level. I want
this level and this this level of respect. Did he
ever tell you like how much that that that album
into him? When we when we talk, we just we
just do versus of each other's and different ship and
not be like the fifth and make it all come

(01:01:32):
together like the Zippo on the butter level, just you know,
just amazing ship. Uh, nothing specific, but that, like you
have to know that. Um I imagine that when I
when I turn in an album that Fonte and Thought

(01:01:54):
and Royce and and different other cats. You know, I
had a big fucking table and they're like, now, let's
like like the last time white board. Yeah, so that's real?
What is that? What is that? So? What is that
in is? Because the thing is that we don't have that,

(01:02:20):
like right now, I'm current. This will be the first
album I created and which I'm you know, in my mind,
I always kept like, okay, the source is still a
thing in my mind and I have to have that
level of perfection, Like I'm still striving for that four
point five rating that I want even though it doesn't

(01:02:43):
exist now. So what is what is that for you
in your head when you're creating things or is this
now you're just in the place where you just create
for yourself. That's what I did on this this new project.
A deconstructed all the ship that I don't like and
you know a lot of stuff I would listen to

(01:03:05):
and be like, this doesn't have any replay value for me?
Why doesn't it have any replay value for you? And
what can you do when you do your ship that's
going to give something some replay value? You know? The
the lyrics, the lyricism work is really really good right now,

(01:03:25):
just being a good or great em see, it's just
not good enough anymore for me. It's like, you know,
people can fucking wrap now. People have been rapping for
thirty years now, more like what you know, what more
is it? You know, just to hear somebody, Uh, that's nice.
It's like, yeah, he's nice, and then I would kind

(01:03:49):
of drift away from it. What can what can you
do to make people retain some information? Or yeah, I know,
I think I'm gonna listen to that that that song
for a second time and it has to do obviously
way more with the arranging and melody and chorus and
bars as well. So in that time, I'm just like, uh,

(01:04:15):
let me step away and and focus still keeping the
in the mind that I want you guys to hear
this ship, you know, because I'm in touch with um
thought towards the end of the the record and he's
just sending me tons and tons of ship and I'm like,
how does he do this? Like records on records and

(01:04:39):
then he's sharing, like I'm so scared to share my ship,
but he's just like, yo, I did this ship with
check the ship out. And it's like, oh my god,
it's so the bar you know, you you know what
your bar is, and it's high for me. But at
the same time, Farah can rap so fucking what, like right,

(01:05:03):
we know it already and I don't know that the
sound I already I mean not to say it's like
it's the same thing with the without it's like the
straight A student, Like if you get straight a's all
the time, it's like people don't notice you till you
make a B and it's just you know what I mean,
Like the sword freestyle. Everybody in the know is watching
that ship like y'all ain't know, you know. But it

(01:05:27):
was so monumental for me because he's he's breaking the
matrix in that moment, look at him. Only somebody who
loves this tow to this level would even be able
to put together a string together that level of artistry
and lyricism, and so that that's what's beautiful about the

(01:05:48):
now and getting mature in this and knowing that you know,
I'm on my Morgan freemanship. Man, I'm just trying to
be the Morgan free enough hip hop. That's great. And
then even the thing with that thought freestyle, the thing

(01:06:09):
that I always tell people is like you have to
you know, to your point kind of almost you know,
fair about like wrapping up being enough. You know, the
thing is, people watch that freestyle. It wasn't that they
listened to it. They watched it, you know what I'm saying.
And that was what kind of gave it the novelty
aspect of it. Because I mean, again, us we've been
in and know we've been knowing. But if we if

(01:06:30):
he would have taken those same bars and just spit
them over beat and put it out and be like, yo,
I just let some bars go, it wouldn't have been
the same reaction. You know what I'm saying People that
I understand what it did for him, Look what it
did for all of us, you know what I mean.
Anytime somebody comes to the table and then they display that,

(01:06:51):
it just reinforces how marginalized I think lyricism still is.
As much as it gets praised, I still don't think
people like even like jay Z. I'm like, y'all still
don't understand how good he is, as much popular as
he is. It's just levels of lyricism that isn't discussed

(01:07:12):
in forums that that can be brought out. In my opinion,
as as as somebody who's a fan of Fonte and
Jay like this is this is just amazing ship that
happens to me an amazing penmanship. And you know, I
think a lot of it goes still to this day,

(01:07:33):
goes over people's heads. How amazing some of this ship
is that makes any sense? All Right? So I'm gonna
not ask you the question that I hate when journalists
ask me this question. Shall remix it. Who are your
favorite m season? And I guess I'm really asking, is

(01:07:54):
there anyone post two thousand ten, really post two thousand
fifteen that you like? Now I'm prepared for that answer
to be no. If it's no, Um, so that's I'll
just have you just who who are your go to? Like?
Who do you like? Really? Like? I'm I'm I'm trying.

(01:08:19):
You know, I pulled from all of these dudes. Um,
But I think Hendrick is an obvious an obvious choice
because you know, on the on the album that I
Touched my Heart. He had an understanding of very early
on that I'm nice, but I need to be surrounded
by arrangement and music and all these things. And he

(01:08:42):
made that marriage and it was a moment again that
that pushed the envelope of what could be done. Kendrick
is one um, but just all Time ms like any
you know, I mean my all Time is the same
cast of dudes. It's a rock Hammon Kane and g

(01:09:06):
rap Rap being my favorite, click Rick, who who I
think influenced a whole array of people, but they don't
get that slick Rick is influenced them because the tone.
But slick Rick is h He's a master. And Chuck
d and Chris. Is there someone that you feel is

(01:09:29):
overrated and overrated, overlooked, Like I'm realizing now that tis
main influence is an MC. He never mentioned well, not
that he does interviews. I didn't realize how much of
a influence that Greg Nice is on TARCI And usually

(01:09:51):
Greg Nice isn't the first name that comes to people's
but I mean Greg Nice is. He's kind of like
a really great tun official sandwich. Like it's not it's
not the it's not the food. No, it's not the
food that you like, like it's not on your last
meal list, but it's consistent and if me right, it

(01:10:12):
hits the spot. But you just overlook it, you know
what I'm saying. And that's exactly That's exactly what I'm
talking about. Like Great Nice is in the Hall of
Fame of and and you wouldn't realize that he could
influence a Black Thought, but hell yeah he could. He
influenced all of us. He pushed over this area. And

(01:10:35):
you know, mhm, I can't explain it, but this ship
has marginalized that can only be discussed in a in
a lyric room. How Great Nights can influence Black thought
is very much so. And he's one of my favorite
mcs as well. Okay, I got one last organized Confusion record.
I swear guy, we'll finally get to your solo career

(01:10:57):
within the first four hours of this this this question
I've been dying to know. I have a copy of
Stress that has different music on Let's Organize, not the
Patrince Russian sample, but there's another version, less organized with
tip that I had. I guess I had the press

(01:11:20):
copy of this ship. Why was that music change. That
ship drove me crazy when I first heard it, and
then when I brought the album it was new music
and I was like, wait a minute, this isn't the version.
And I and it's like snuffle up against like was
it really? Was? It not real? And anybody that's been

(01:11:41):
on this show involved with that record? Whatever Tip name?
I asked, was it me? Or did I remember another
version of Let's Organized that never made it? It's the
original versions the version, and we will we have that version.
I do I could get to see. That's another That's

(01:12:06):
another thing that won't ever happen again is we were
in studios, you know the Drive the studio that was
in the Drive building getting the name Battery Studios, and
we were recording and Tip, you know, artists would be
in different and Tip just heard that beat, came into
our room and was like, funck, y'all, I'm getting on

(01:12:27):
this song. Where's my part? We were and he went
in and he just you know, vibed it out. You
know this It got me moving like this, it got
me moving. I need to be on this song. I
remember Ericauld being in sessions in there, and again it
was just people flowing throughout the hallways, and that should
have never happened again in music. I think mistakenly on

(01:12:52):
the same mistakenly but organically happening because of different people
in different studios. But yeah, we're working on that. It
was like, y'all gotta get on this song. So that's
how that happened. Wow. Yeah, I got to hear that, man,
like I've been dreaming of that moment. Why was it
changed at the last minute or was that sample yes

(01:13:14):
you are, Oh, oh, I don't know, man, I think
I think it was a label thing. Is you know,
we need to remix this song or whatever, and you
know we fell for it, you know, I mean this
is actually this was the jazz ear more effective. I
mean I DJ did and people dancing me, so it was.

(01:13:37):
It was probably the better decision. But the way y'all
hooked that beat up on that first join, Prince Poe
did that beat, man, If I was driving, I would
have drove two miles per hour into a wall and
been happy like that. That one was just so incredible, man. Yeah,
thank you. In your time off from in between Equinox,

(01:14:00):
uh you know, internal rock, internal Fairsure, what were you
doing during that time? Um. Contemplating my life now, I thought,
if you're gonna you're gonna recommit, you know, on some
rocky ships, and you're gonna do it by yourself, then

(01:14:21):
you need to really put yourself through the the ringer
and the test of that. Um, it wasn't a pretentious thing.
Started working on music. I did some demos. I went
overseas with Barbato and Cue Unique and destroying those cats

(01:14:43):
or we re toward retward Europe. I was by myself.
I had ad machine and I was like, and you know,
this is me having a conversation with mine itself. If
you really bout it about it, you're gonna press that
det and you're gonna go on stage by yourself, and
you're gonna see if you about it, and you're gonna
see if you've got what it takes to be a

(01:15:03):
solo artist. Because I really if it wasn't for Prince,
I wouldn't have got into it. Like you know, he
was the conduit obviously to give me. You know, I'm
not really outgoing like that, and so I needed to
be like, are you really you know about this ship?
You need to get up there by yourself and not

(01:15:24):
having any money and you know, towards in Europe, I
didn't have a DJ. I literally had a portable DAT machine. Wow,
and would be like press play on the portable that
to my intro and walk out on stage. There was
no can I ask from one to damn that annoys me?

(01:15:52):
How burnensome or annoying to you? At least in the
last twenty years. Are those four notes from Simon says,
I didn't think it. I was scared. I mean, it's strange, man.
It's like, I know a lot of artists talk about

(01:16:13):
their disdain for those records. Yeah, and I right, But
I've I've really embraced the ship. I've braced the love
of it. I've braced the the way it bought um
a lot of people from different genres to that records.
I embraced the festival ship with the record. I embraced

(01:16:37):
the novelty of the record. It almost became a novelty
before the Ship came out. You know, Raucus was late
to claim it, and Flex was playing it and Puffy
was walking out to that song at the Garden for
intro before I was able to be like, wait a minute,
this is me, you know, And we had that we

(01:16:59):
had push forward the the reclaim the record, you know,
to grab it. So to answer that question, like I've
decided to love that fucking song and it's brought me
pain too, and and and you know with the sample ship,
but I love the record. Wait, so you you did.

(01:17:26):
Can I ask one question? Am I the only human
being on earth that sort of associates that record and
that sample that is also on Ladies Sings the Blues?
And as a person that has watched Lady Sings the
Blues like twenty times when she's getting when she's getting
arranged in fingerprinted in the beginning, during the opening credits,

(01:17:50):
the music in the background is it's the same thing.
It's been used over and over again. Now, the thing
was that I know when the lawsuit came on it's
from the Godzilla people in YadA YadA, YadA, whatnot. But
I don't know, like I knew that public not public domain,

(01:18:12):
that Lady Sings the Blues. And I believe like it
was almost some Gilbert of Sullivan Bismarck Marquis coming going on,
where they were trying to go extra hard on you
from ruining the legacy of this this fictional dragon and
I'm gonna a minute, so it's it's like, what was

(01:18:36):
that whole ordeal? And I got mad James Murdoch questions
for you as well with succession. But anyway, man, man
for real, for real, let me yeah, just start with that,
like when how did that whole thing, the whole lawsuit
thing comes to be? You know? I was a fucking

(01:18:56):
Monster movie buff and fan, and my best friend, who
was a DJ for Organized Confusion as well, Tostick calls
me and he's like, yo, I just came back from Tower.
I got this this CD with with the original ships
that we used to love back in the days, and
we used to run on from school to watch the

(01:19:18):
four thirty after school movie Ship. I used to have
a four thirty after school Karate ship, and he used
to have the four thirty after school Monster Joints with
GAMMERA and Calm and all of that. I got the
soundtrack to the sounds and all that stuff that was
on there, and I was like, I'm coming right down
right now, and I go down there and I listened

(01:19:39):
to it at his house and I just heard like
some some notes and phrasings, and the whole CD was
is amazing It's a couple of things that I could
have chopped off of there, but you know that things
that that out to me. And it was like, oh, man,
is it this intro? Every DJ loves an intro to
a song. This is just classic hip hop. And I

(01:20:01):
can set it up where I have this intro to
the song and then this drop on the one, and
then I'll just rock these four beats, do it in
through the four beast saying put some drums on it.
Just rocking in the room and listening in and I'm like,
did you do that? Was that be sp yes, sir?
And then that's you know, and then um, I just

(01:20:23):
had the four notes and then um, I didn't have
enough time to set up the intro. That that's where
Lee Stone comes in. I'm like, I gotta bring you
the ship and then we go and we work on
the jigger jigging and and all the rest of the ship.
So you know, I'm just yet listen to the record,
and I'm just like, you know what this is. You

(01:20:45):
can only fuck this song up. You need to tell
people what to do. You need to be direct, and
you need to write. You know, I wanted to write
a rhyme like like how I felt with kind of
like l L time that people remember the rhyme and
you do the rhyme, and everybody saying the rhyme you know,
up until this point is intricate and it's a lot

(01:21:07):
of gymnastics, and people would be staring at me at
shows like oh nice. But I wanted to write something
that that you know, the whole crowd is like, I'm him.
You know, I'm him when I'm saying I said I
I could do that ship in the Maryland if I
was doing that song. So those are the two things
I started with push, come to shove, get the record done,

(01:21:32):
and the bare bones of the record, and I take
it to Raucous and I'm like, I think I got
one before I made that record. Again, if we put
it in context of what's happening in and in music
at that time, at radio and with labels, I'm looking
at the scope of this ship and I'm like, I
think I could. I think I can hang out with

(01:21:54):
these guys in my way. Uh, New York City had
a place to break records, which was the time. Know
that ship doesn't exist anymore, and so I'm factoring all
of this in when I'm thinking about the song. You
need to get this record broke. You need to move people.
It needs to be hard and it needs to say

(01:22:14):
you know a couple of things on it, you know
that that could change things. It needs to be aggressive anyway.
I take the record in Headquarters. Piece of Headquarters was
that raucus at the time. They just went crazy. They
was like, this ship is crazy. I remember Headquarters. The
record was done before you even went for Rocus even

(01:22:34):
heard it, like it was done before you were signed
the rockers. No no, no, I was. I was signed,
and I was you know, I was like, I was
telling them I could, I could make records that can
with what is happening on the radio right now an
hour in my way. You know, I felt like if

(01:22:55):
this is the illest things that that's happening right now,
it was like holla, holla did I'm like, that's cool?
You know what I'm saying. I hated that, damn. So
you know what, I like it hot like that era
like Halla, Halla, can I get out all them records?

(01:23:16):
Was kind of back then I didn't like it, But
now hardcore now I like it because you've heard it
so much. You didn't like it because the radio play
back to back to back to back to back that
I didn't like it the first time I heard it.
Oh damn yeah you Fonte, So yeah, that makes sense. Yeah,

(01:23:38):
I didn't like it for the first time. That was it.
And that's another h I miss Norman, Like all the
cats that Raucus was, what's fucking with those dudes. It's
not like we were like hating, you know, I like right,
but they drew this line and you know, cats that
I knew on that side was like, yo, we we

(01:24:00):
bumping your ship in the in the whip and wow,
I was with these dudes and they're playing you and
quality and in most in the car and they're doing
the ship and they're rocking with y'all shipped too, Like
I don't think it was a bigger disparity in line
between the two genres at the time as it was
made out to be. Of course, I was working with

(01:24:20):
Big and Jay and Jabru and all that ship Like
who who wasn't. I mean, I'm from South Jamaica, queens.
That being said, raucous, I knew, you know, I was.
I was where I wanted to be and where I
needed to be and was working on this song. I
brought the record and I don't mean to be long winded.

(01:24:41):
Love the record. I love the They loved the record.
Jared was like, I don't know about this titty thing.
You might want to change the titty thing because you
know the female fans. If you could just go back
in and re the titty thing. Yeah, it was weird.

(01:25:02):
Every time I saw came on, he was like, wait
a minute, what am I doing. I was like, what
y'all doing? I love it. I literally went back into
the studio because I wasn't a jackass artist. I'm like,
let me let me, you know, see if I could
rework it. And I was like, funk that ship and

(01:25:23):
then leave it how it is. It is what it is.
It's an unconventional chorus because it's extra long and all
the ship and then it gets into some other ship
with the itty bitty ship like leadership man. It's the feel.
It feels good you got into and we left it.

(01:25:45):
They rocked with it. And I came to them with
the business side and there was no tories there, like
business wasn't just executed on a high level. And I
brought the samples in and whatever, and it was like,
you know, we don't really have to, you know, because
just about the book, the book, and they dropped the
ball on the business side. It's not like I hid

(01:26:07):
what the funk I was doing. I was like, here's
the CD. It was the paperwork, here's the ship, Like,
let's clear a ship. It could pop if you're feeling
it like that, we need to do it. And it
was kind of like because you do so you're saying that.
They just thought like we're raucous, you know, under the radar.
It's only going to be units. This will sell at
fat beats and you know, and THENO okay, well I

(01:26:33):
was gonna ask like did you have relationships with Brian
and Jarrett and about to say Rupert James Murdoch at
the time, because it's only do you watch Succession, Uh,
the HBO kind of drama about the Murdoch family need

(01:26:53):
to a morning. Yeah, like they the character that's playing
the James guy, like you know he's going through his
you know, his post hip hop phase. But now that
I've watched that, like, wait, I'm sorry, connect the dots.
Wait what are you saying right now? I'm miryor are
you saying that the Murdochs are connected to Raucus. Is

(01:27:13):
that what you're saying? James Murdoch, the youngest son of
Rupert Murdoch, is the kind of deceived money for Raucus Records.
Shut the funk off? Yeah something James. Actually, you know, James,
I forgot James b. Raucus to Wendy Goldstein. So at

(01:27:34):
one point like, yeah, that's how most got on the
lable quality my ship, like the most conscious rappers. Yea, yeah.
The irony of it all is that, Yes, the youngest
Murdoch's song son, James Murdoch was was one of the
heads of Raucus Records. And I first heard that and

(01:27:56):
from an LP song. It was one of his records.
It was an LP of a company though I can't remember,
but he had made a mention of and I was like,
holy sh it, like was it on the fun Crusher Plus?
It might have been on Fun Crusher Plus? Yeah? Yeah.
So yeah, So if you start watching the show's succession,

(01:28:16):
which is you know, kind of mirror, it's it's like
mcdowall's and McDonald's like the family, but that's who it is.
Like one of their sons was like, you know, I mean,
not wiggerish, but you know, he's no the youngest step
and the hip hop whatever. So I always wondered like

(01:28:38):
what the relationship was between the artists and those three
at the time, because in my head I thought they
were like that it was strictly a backpack. I didn't
realize like, how yeah, it was money it was. It
was heavy money flowing through, you know, not enough money

(01:29:01):
to clear samples apparently exactly exactly, so have they handled
have they handled it? Now? It's like has it been
cleared or dealt with? Or the song just that does
not exist anymore unless you already had it. It doesn't
and it hasn't been cleared. And I own that album

(01:29:22):
and I own that record and it's back in my
possession and thank God for that. And during this pandemic,
where the butter was that? Are there any plans to
get the first two UM organized records or streaming or

(01:29:46):
are you going through a day loss old thing as
well with we're only missed the putting those up soon.
But I just was telling Prince let's let's do the
ship and a real, you know, ill way and not
just making it their a bull. Let's let's try and
shoot something. Let's shoot something for a straight bullet, make
an announcement and it would be nice. You know, it

(01:30:07):
needs to be like, Hi, I'm principal, Hi, I'm farall
March and we are organized for the first time. Yeah,
you know, I think that it would be cool. So
to all the heads out there, it's coming on. We
just want to do it and honor the catalog. It's
all we have. You know, it may not be with us,

(01:30:29):
some of the catalogs are, but it's ours and I
want to honor it. And that money gonna come in
every month. Mm hmm. Wow, it's great. I was about
to say with the desired record, Um, what was the

(01:30:54):
decision process to well, I'm saying grows. It's almost as
if every one between two thousand four and two thousand
five was expanding their their creative palette in terms of, um,
their presentations. So there's a lot more live instrumentation. Was
that just based on not trying to mess with samples anymore?

(01:31:16):
And the whole nightmare of that situation? Like what what
brought that on? One of my favorites on that record
was your Terror Doom cover? But thank you Manum probably
you know, UM looking back. It's uh emotionally and psychologically,
but more so than that. UM. I had went through
so much trauma with the sample and the label ship

(01:31:40):
and uh Raucus folded and went to m c A
and then they went over there, and then it was
that Geffen and then it was this, and I was
caught up in all that ship. And in the midst
of that UH, there was there was some almost me
going with Shady and then Sylvia Rown and then over here,

(01:32:01):
and then I was just all over the place. And
then I finally was like, you know what, I'm gonna
just try to be a free agent and get out
of this kind of web. And I was finally able
to walk from it all. And when I walked from it,
I felt free again. And I was like, I don't
even know if I I want to want to do

(01:32:23):
this ship again right now in the way that I'm
used to doing it. And I had a a bevy
of of songs that I have recorded, and I had love.
I was on tour with most and Quality was on
a Sony PlayStation tour with tour buses. I had landed
UH publishing Gil and I was chilling and I was like,

(01:32:44):
I'm not signed. I don't want to look for a
record deal. I'm good and Corey Quality is manager at
the time. Blacksmith was like, you know what you're working on?
And I put something on the tour bus and I
played a couple of songs and he lost it and
he just told me apart and he was like, these

(01:33:05):
songs are great, they're not yours. They're given to you
from a higher places. It's wrong for you to hold
onto this stuff. What are you doing? You know it's
not yours to hold on to, Like, what are you
doing on I don't know. You know, I'm good. I'm
on tour with with Most and Quade, and you know,
I'm just turned off by the record label ship. And
he really beat me up and was like, and you

(01:33:27):
need to give them away? And there was this again
putting putting music in context. The industry is changing, like
you said at that time, and I couldn't understand as
the nineties due the concept of give the what no
record covered, like what how like no artwork? What do
you mean give this sh it away? And he was

(01:33:49):
really like, it's it's not really yours man, You have fans.
You need to let it go. How is this like,
I can't get the concept. I go on to record
more is it, and I do realize that what I'm
feeling is, um, I want to uplift, So I incorporate
h Mila Machinko and Showtime, Showtime because I'm hearing that

(01:34:14):
these harmonies can can be uplifting in the song and
these tones. And I knew that I wanted to performing
have people feel a certain way because I feel like
I was let free from my situation. So I was incorporated,
you know. To answer your question, sorry for being long winded.
I wasn't trying to incorporate this instrumentation that can make

(01:34:39):
you feel good and get a goose bump, hopefully from
the law of performance. And that's why the Desire record
sounds like that. How did you hook up? Man? How?
What was How did that connection happen? Um? There was
there was. I was moving back and forth between Shady

(01:35:00):
and this and that, and we hooked up and he's
responsible for a lot of that. And you know, I
was in Detroit, man, it was one of the best times,
you know, just being out there with with Black Milk
and Guilty and Denan and and that whole crew. And uh,
he sold soulful and he bought a lot of that.
You know, That's why I gravitated that way because he

(01:35:22):
sings and you know, I'm still waiting for that. I
need that to come out on something like I love
all Man, Thank you Man. And uh, that's that's why
I went in that direction, because I'm I was like,
I need to move people in a in a different way.
And that being said, the record that most of the

(01:35:44):
demo got dropped. When I was in Detroit working with
de Nan, I was also writing for Puffy. I wanted
to ask you, So I'm feeling I'm feeling really good
and I don't have a record deal and I'm just
fortunate that the norm is helping me out and I'm

(01:36:04):
working on music again, feeling really fortunate, and I'm I'm
I'm I'm writing and I'm doing it and I don't
know where this music is going to go. And there
was an actual, uh created an actual bidding war just
to push this forward. It was that's all ce Puff
was loving what he was hearing because he would ask

(01:36:25):
me to play Ship when I was in the studio
with him, No desire and and uh, the Ship with
Alchemists and the different songs that was on that album
people were feeling, and my lawyer was like, I can't
believe that in this context and this time frame that
you actually have three deals on the table Sony SRC

(01:36:49):
and Puff was like, whatever they offer you double that
ship ship true story, and I was like, I don't
believe you. I don't leaders to work there. You know,
we would have heart to hearts and he would be
like why, and I'm like, I don't travel mons bad
boy in the building. I was like, nobody's trunning it. Wait,

(01:37:12):
I gotta ask only because you know, there's there's a
part like Past the Mid Arts two thousand five, two
thousand six, where you just stopped reading credits. So I
don't know, but I always felt in my heart that
one of them rhymes on Ditti's I'm so glad you
said that. Yeah, I didn't want you want to insult you.

(01:37:36):
I was like, wait, it was the future, right? It was? Yeah,
wait to see because I always thought that you wrote,
uh everything. I love the one that Kanye did because
the way he's I was like like this he's penny, Like,

(01:37:57):
come on, y'all don't have this. And I always wanted
to know, did you go right that joint? Okay? He
I sat it was the press Play album, right it
press play press Play sat with him, had to meet
with him. He was like, I'm working on the album. U.
I got to meet with him because I had did

(01:38:18):
this publishing deal and the writers there and y'all know
how that go. And my only thing was when when
I sat with him, I'm like, I'm good. I just
want to be credited, which is why I don't have
any problem saying what I'm saying because I'm credited as
a writer on the song. So it's not like she quiet, right,
you know, Okay? And then you know, I just again,

(01:38:40):
I just I just learned so much from him. You know,
I thought he he credited me so much on my
work ethic, but he's really an animal, uh at that
ship too. And I watched him and and learned about
applying re applying myself in a different way when it

(01:39:00):
comes to my own ship, because I'm like, no way,
I'm gonna work this hard on his ship and not
work that hard on my ship. And just learned so
much from him in that sense of how he pushes.
It's really good at figuring out how to push your
writer or to push the artists. I love that dude
for that. So you know what, I want to know
what that process is like when you're is it like

(01:39:22):
does he just take what you give him? Do you
have to be there to coach him? Like say it
like this, like how how much work does he put
into the preparation? Because I mean he pulled it off
to the point where I was like, Wow, he really
got good at rapping. And then I was like, wait
a minute, this got somebody right for him. And then
when rhymes checks right, and then when art the rhyme scheme,

(01:39:45):
I was like, Yo, this feels like farrel something Fara
would say. And I was like, there's no way that
he reached that deep into the to the rapper bag
to go that level. But now re and he goes
in cycles where he's like, Okay, I gotta take it
back to the beginning. Like even right now as we speak,

(01:40:06):
he I hope I'm not letting this cat out the
bag like he's trying to make. He's now making like
Camp Diddy where it's like he has two underground cats,
like he's trying to go back there again. You know
what I'm saying, He doesn't you got to realize who
he discovered. Yeah, the end of the day, you got

(01:40:28):
to realize who was written. You know, you know we
could we could, you know. Even having conversations with him
off the rip, he was like, I know what they
can say about me. I'm like, what did they say?
He said they'd be in the barbershops and they'd be like,
I funk with his jeans and I don't funk with
his music and his music wait, I can see that

(01:40:54):
I was. I was once a short John model, because
I do want to know the answer to the question
of the process that you asked the mirror about, like
what is that process like? And were you in the
studio and there for like all the infections and when
it again in those hearts the hearts, he was like, yo,

(01:41:14):
if you have an issue, tell me to my face
and be honest with me. And that's why I took
the job. It's been a lot of ships that a
lot of things that I was offered in my career,
which is where I'm in a position not in the
higher because it's not I could beat that. I was like,
it's just not in my heart to do it. But
when he told me that I was like, all right,

(01:41:36):
nig if you're dontna be that raw and you're gonna
be that honest, then then let's do it. And he
played me the beats and it was like had it
the long I'm like, oh shit, I was like, this
is what the A lists beat sounded like. I was like,

(01:42:01):
oh my god, this music is good. Let's do it.
So he flies me down the Miami and I'm writing
and I'm writing and I'm writing and were nailing the ship,
and then the engineers are and then and there like
this is crazy, this is crazy, this is crazy. He's
gonna love this. And he here coming in in the

(01:42:21):
loving hour and be like me, maybe the last four bars,
you know, going into the thing could be could be
a rewrite. And we you know, we were hard on stuff.
So I got it done. You know. There was some
some great stories down there in Miami. Again, what was

(01:42:47):
it like recording Dow not going there. I was working
on my album with the non at the same time,
and I really was like, I want to finish this
so I could go back to the Detroit and finish
my ship. And he was like, yo, your ship is
amazing as well. You might want to thank this out

(01:43:07):
bom bom, boom boom. I finished my writing. I flew
to Detroit and we're working on my stuff. And I'm
in the studio with the Non. Maybe Milk may be
guilty with chilling and with writing, and I'm I'm having
some whiskey and I get a call from Shawn C

(01:43:27):
and he says, my brother, I think Puffy is gonna
use one of your joints. Is the first single, first
release kind of And I'm like, you gotta be fucking
shipping me, and he's like, you gotta hear it. And
I was like, send it to me, and they send
me the song and the Non has this elaborate studio.
He puts it in, puts it on, puts it on

(01:43:50):
the big sneak speakers and press play and all you
can hear his laughter. Everybody in the studio is laughing
at the top of the lungs because it sounds like
Farrell Match coming out of Puffy's mouth. Yes, And I'm like,

(01:44:12):
you know, I actually did it, you know what for?
I did it with a New York swagger on the
demos and it's kind of laid back in it, you know,
kind of has like a lot of flavor that I
don't even you know, uh project back then, that's not
where I was with it. And it was so ill.

(01:44:33):
So he said, if you have an issue, you can
call me. So I was like, I gotta get him
on the phone. I want to fly back. I want
to re record his vocals. I want to fly back
to New York and when I go in with him
and re record these vocals. And I was like, I
gotta get him on the phone. And they just steady
laughing and just laughing in the background, and I'm calling
and I'm like, hello is Fararell? Can I speak to Puff?

(01:44:55):
And it's like Farrell who what? Like Farrel can spa
hold on? Who? What? Farrel? Okay hold on? Finally get
through to him and I'm like, just listen to the record.
I think we could re record these vocals more laid

(01:45:16):
and relaxed. And he was like, fuck you man, I
love this ship. I'm not changing it. Yeah, what what
do you think made you go with um? You know,

(01:45:37):
a goal with SRC, rather than going with bad Boy
or going with like Sony. You know you said something,
what what how did you choose them? I mean I
know what that record was sounding like it was Denon
and I don't you know you're not would be like,
explain to me how do how does would work? And
you know it's like I could walk you on the MTV,

(01:45:57):
I could do this after today, And this was like,
I just don't think it fits the aesthetic unless something
else is kind of created. And I love that dude,
and I would have loved to have worked with him
under his tutelage and got all that extra kind of love,
but I just didn't think it's fit. There was that
your last experience in the writing, because did you write

(01:46:19):
some more for other funks? I quit after that. It's
such it's so taxing. You give all of your heart
to and soul and it just this is kind of
training in a way. Can I ask if you say,
who did you say no to? If I'm allowed to ask,

(01:46:41):
did he can't be the only person that asked you
to hook up his pen um? I can't. I can't
wait a minute, wait, wait, wait, just yes or no?
Are these like rappers that we would respect that we'd
be shocked at? Or is it like a list celebrities

(01:47:04):
that want to wrap based on that already know the answer?
Never mind? And I bline think I knew the answer,
but anyway, uh wow wow ba. So like once you
talk to talk to me about like after you left,

(01:47:26):
you know, after Desire and then the years think like
the four years, uh three or four years when you
came with the War LP. Um, how's it like to
get your mind frame of being ready to be an
independent artist and like really like doing it yourself in
a way that you had never had prior to any
point in your career. After the Desire album, Steve Riskin

(01:47:49):
and we went back and Steve loved the record. Yea.
He was telling me him and his wife at the
time was it was something that they played and they
they had sex to and it was really not not
on some real ship. Like he was like really and

(01:48:13):
he was very disappointed. I think, um when he had
sex the War record, No, No, No Desire six to
the War six to the War record, that's an X
videos channel. Okay, my bad, my bad, me and a

(01:48:38):
mortal technique and um so he uh, he was like,
I loved this record and UM roped it and I
was in the system in which uh I believe that
that in that two week frame, little Wayne dropped the
Lollipop record and that ship shut. It's shut everything down.

(01:49:04):
I think it like killed Erica had America. I think
at the time, from what I could see from my optics,
it's just soaked up all of the moneys from everywhere
and they put all their money on on that ship
and we kind of got yeah. But that being said,
I tore it off that record. I did Rock the
Bells off that record, and um, it was very well received,

(01:49:28):
and I saw a different level of fans coming in.
I remember being on Rock the Bells over the Seas
where NAS and Daylight and the Elevator, and I was
talking to NS and I said, yo, you know I
put this out, and you know, head seemed a little
disappointed that I had, you know, the singing in this
and and nos imposters like, don't worry. These things are

(01:49:48):
like children. They grow, they mature. Talk to me three
years from now and see what it's like. So when
I asked people desires is I was up there and
my my solo ship that that people vibe was still
brought in new fans, and I was starting to learn that, um,

(01:50:09):
that's okay as I'm moving forward. So I go back
to Steve and then that moment when we're going into
the new record. I was like, yo, h, I got
these samples and ship, and I want to do some
rock ship and I want to do some this ship
and that ship was like nah. And now I was like,
I want to leave them and I want to be
on the label and then let me go because we're

(01:50:31):
all mature and whatever and whatever. And gar Route, my
manager at the time, was like, you know, I think
this major label ship went over people's heads. You know,
you're telling me. People see you in the mall and
they're like, you're still wrapping, and I'm like, I'm on
the major you know. It was connecting something. They're connecting

(01:50:53):
and the labels is changing and it's going digital, and
then missing it. We decided to go and depend it,
learn on the Tulge tutelage of duck Down, and get
the game from somebody who's been doing it for twenty
five years, you know, and not just jump into the game.
And we talked to them and we went there and

(01:51:14):
we did the The War record, which again um for me,
you know, for my lens, did better than the Desire
record because we had a record on their uh, I
had a record on their called Still Standing with Jill Scott. Yeah,
that performed extremely well overseas and kept me out on

(01:51:37):
the road, which is obviously the only way I was
making money at the time, the only way I could
earn so I was enjoying staying on the road. Yeah.
And then as we did Black Hand Side, we shot
the Black Handside video with that was man, that was
you were the one you introduced me to Terrence Dance,
who is the director of uh Random Acts of Flytness

(01:52:02):
on HBO and he's also and he's one of one
of his homies is also. Um, I don't think he
was on set that day, but because man, Shaka King,
I don't know you you know, Shaker, Yeah, yeah, you
know it was the mind who did the upcoming Fred
Hampton joint. But but now, man, I really the videos
that y'all did for that record, I just I would

(01:52:23):
remember just telling guy, you know, because we shot our
video the Black hand Side joint with styles P. But
before that, y'all shot Clap and I was like, Yo,
these ships is like movies, dude, and you know, it
always just made me think of you and just one
if you ever had any aspirations of going in the
screen righting because seeing you be a perfect fit of

(01:52:44):
the ship man. I wrote all of those. I wrote
the concept for black Hand Side with the through the
different lens of the shades. I wrote the concept for
Clap and Still Standing. And obviously I was lucky enough
to hook up with turn Nance, who's fucking genius saying
is going to do incredible and insane major major things.

(01:53:08):
But I was lucky to fall into that that lane
with him and his cinematographer Sean and get those visuals done,
which really really helped the record a lot. Farrell, Uh
so we we we got here, foling in three hours.
Um explained to me the concept behind the Third Team project. Damn,

(01:53:34):
you're gonna steal my one question, all right, go ahead,
Steve asked your question. I mean, I love Darue Jones
and Marcus Machado. Um, and yet if you could just
tell us about the trio, but um, specifically, why you
chose a drummer drums and guitar as as the other

(01:53:56):
two parts as your back drup You know, of course,
you know the rock thing has been sprinkled throughout. You know,
I had some ill samples that that didn't make the
record of stuff that I was rocking over and I realized, um,
if I if I wanted people to take me a

(01:54:17):
little bit more serious, and me even saying that word
that I needed to incorporate musicians. I likened it to
somebody from the rock side saying he's going to do
an authentic hip hop record, and how everybody on this
side would be like, yeah, the funk out of here,
And so, you know, I wanted I wanted to at

(01:54:39):
least get a look on that side. I'm a fan
of the genre and I respect the genre, and I
know people have tried to I've done these types of
matchups before, so uh, I wanted someone who had who
could who could do the the late Diller ship as

(01:55:00):
well as had rock chops, because a lot of this
stuff with straight ahead, and I knew it should be
more straight ahead than more laid back in the pocket,
you know. Thinking about what I wanted, and I wanted to,
you know, get somebody who who can understand that. And
you know, I know how busy Daru is, but I

(01:55:20):
was like, fucking yo, I'm doing this project and I
need a bit of commitment, and I know cats are
always digging, but he was like, I'm down and and
that was, like, you know, one of the main things
because I needed to do obviously a couple of straight
live records to make it makes sense. But more importantly,
I wanted it to keep the temperament and not lose

(01:55:46):
hip hop because that's the core of the ship still.
It's the reason why I like the genre. You know,
to begin with your talking Rush and Savage and Zeppelin,
you know, that's all shoult I would rhyme over. You know.
I heard Tom Sawyer and I'm like, I don't know

(01:56:07):
any mc wh wouldn't want to rhyme over that. So
to me, I'm like, that's that's hip hop to me.
And it's always been the genres kind of blend in
to each other for me. Um, So I knew that
was very important to bringing the Knots so that the

(01:56:28):
cities official in terms of that pocket, but then able
to expand outside of where what you would get and
an intro and outro of the records so we could
stretch a little bit. So that's what that's all about.
On the musical side, what is the what is your

(01:56:48):
almost this phone called it obsession with the number thirteen
Because you're publishing a dress good deck of overa which
is fear of the number thirteen. So that, yeah, what's that?
That that recurring kind of theme in your career. So
with with the asthma ship, when I when I got
it and when I was little, I contracted it at

(01:57:10):
thirteen months m of of of of of age, and
that's what I would hear all the time. People would
be like, how long has it been since he had asthma?
And my mom has been like since he was thirteen
months old? And I, you know, it's just kind of
stuck in my head like that. And then as you know,
I went on, I was born on Halloween, which is

(01:57:31):
thirty one, and the number just kept recurring. And then
I'm a big sports fan and then a lot of
the players that I like water number. So when when
me and Prince picked numbers, you know, his favorite number
was eight. We played on the high school basketball team
in art school, so it wasn't really that good, um

(01:57:51):
and third team was my number, and so it stuck
with me. And that's just the basis behind that, you know,
And it's cool to to to do the awkward ship
and just I think it's hip hop to be like, yeah,
it's supposed to be bad luck, but fuck it. And
it's also rock to be like supposed to be bad.
Look that's what is about. Okay, So not the totally

(01:58:15):
weird y'all out. Okay, So you know, as of this recording,
I don't know when this will hit the air, but
as of this recording, UM, I just celebrated a birthday
and someone was gracious enough to gift me, um a medium,

(01:58:37):
a three hour session with a medium and nice. Yeah
it was deep man. No no no, they're all not nice,
not nice for okay, No, no, no, I'm saying, that's
amazing thing that m Yeah. You know, I've also been

(01:58:59):
looking at my my my lineage and my bloodline, which um,
the beneating people of Africa are also connected to Haitians.
And so I'm slowly just discovering that there is a
lot of propaganda with the number thirteen and also the

(01:59:21):
number six, which of course, you know, we we've been
taught kind of post colonial Christian America that you know
six six is the market, the beast and signed the devil,
and there's no thirteen floor anywhere, none of those things.
And I'm slowly realizing, uh, in my my, my studies,
especially in Haitian culture that thirteen is actually a holy number.

(01:59:47):
And it's almost as if you know, the propaganda that
that's been used to sort of to tear you away
from uh embracing it. Say it's evil, Say but it's
actually actually a very spiritual. It's it's for African culture.
It's it's a spiritual number. So everything y'all do is bad.

(02:00:10):
God damn. Yeah. So I'm realizing this year that actually
we need to embrace the number thirteen. Which when I
saw that the name of the group, I was like, damn,
he took my number. Man, I didn't know that number.
Damn it. Did you did you know Marcus or did

(02:00:33):
Darry bring him aboard or to you? I knew Marcus
from you know, Vernon Red and those cats and um
family stand and he grew up around those people, and
you know, when it came to you know, I need

(02:00:53):
you know, I need someone who could take it there
and you know, do some double time or you know,
do some funk. You know. His he he was a dude,
and uh, I've seen him play and it was like
you know, blue note and I was like he got that.
I just needed to see if he had the the

(02:01:14):
edge and uh, you know, obviously he's a Jimmy fan
and and I even needed it a little more edgier
than that. He's just that dude, like he's he's a prodigy,
like I asked for. We're still in the beginning stages,
so we don't know, but I asked for two dudes

(02:01:35):
who could if we break this ceiling. And people be like,
I don't know any of these guys. I don't know
they're fucking rapper. I don't know any of them, are
you know, run the juice style. I wanted people to
be like, I'm here for the guitarists, I'm here for
the drummer. The vocalist is cool. And I asked for

(02:01:56):
you know, catch that can shine like that because I think,
you know, the goal is to take away the pretentiousness
of what you get. You know, like I said, I'm
trying to deconstruct and I just got tired of staying
dudes in the front with whatever, and I'm like, I
need to see a team. So I told them, you know,

(02:02:20):
I didn't want my name on this ship at all,
but obviously because of algorithms, the algorithm, yeah, you know that,
like we gotta put Farrell in here somewhere to take
advantage of your millions of people who have locked into
you on Spotify and all that ships. So that's what
that's about. But if it was up to me, I
would have just been like thirteen. But you know, I'm

(02:02:41):
not as stupid to run away from what I've been
working on for thirty years. So that's why my name
is even on this ship. You know, can you break
down because I think a mere asked you, but when
you never got a chance to answer about the concept
of the group, and even I mean the videos, there
is a concept, there's a focus, it's a yeah, you know,

(02:03:03):
it's just anybody who who has a brain and any empathy,
you could just feel that, Uh, the system in the
country is way heavy on our spirit and when you
think about how do you get back to zero, you

(02:03:24):
know it's going to be some hard, stass discussions that
need to happen because of the atrocities that that this
country is founded on. And so you know, in my
mind as an MC, I'm like, you know, the only
real way to do that ship, the only real way
to atone collectively is an exorcism, even if it's with
ourselves and I as an MC. I know people would

(02:03:47):
hear that word and be like ohh And I was like, good,
you should be scared because this ship is scary that's
going on. But it's kind of like the It's kind
of like the cleansing too, you know. And it's been
cathartic for me as well doing it. And also, you know,
we've been coomed by Yond and praying and all that

(02:04:09):
shipped for a long time now on holding hands, and
I just wanted to like it myself and be like,
let's just come at this to like real dark and
meet the ship head on how it's coming at us,
because you know, to keep information from people and too,
you know, not allow people to have loans to get

(02:04:30):
homes and all. The secret ship that's been going on
for all these years is pretty evil, you know, point blank.
And um, I was like, how about we we we
come down to that vibration. I know, it's like light
signs on the dark leg. I'm like, how about we
go there and throw this system a little voodoo and

(02:04:51):
get a little dark with the ship motherfucker's back in
the face. Hey, I have one last question before we
wrap up, Okay, okay, Yeah, because I feel like I'll
get roasted for not asking this question because we asked

(02:05:11):
about like your history, and we asked about your records
and your business decisions. But the one thing I never
asked um was your actual creative process, Like, can you
just give us a you know? And I know the
mcas and artists have general you know, it just comes

(02:05:32):
when the spirit hits me. But do you have a
do you have a specific ritual? Like, uh, do you
get up in the morning, do you like what is
your what is your ritual when you are creating a song?
Does it come instantly? I'm a sponge. I love good conversation.
I love talking to people who who are way more

(02:05:55):
educated than I am and listening to them and talking
to them and and and sponging and film and I
sponge off of films like this. This, this whole project
is probably off of Fury Road, Logan and Joker in
the sense that you look at the commitment that I

(02:06:19):
looked at the commitment that Joaquin Phoenix made to that
film and literally went back in the studios like I
gotta redo versus I need you to be more committed.
You were one of the first simcs I'll say to
man like you were on the first cast that I
really someone I respected at the time of hip hop
when everybody was trying to be j and I get

(02:06:42):
it in one tape, Guru, you know what I'm saying, Like, Oh,
I just got it in one take. I got in
one take. You were one of the first casts I
remember hearing saying like, no, I treat my vocals like
a performance or you know, treating almost like an actor
where it's like, you know, if I got to do
it to three times, or even if it's like comping
and just okay, I want to do this line right here,
you know what I'm saying. And that was so mind

(02:07:05):
blowing to me, and it just opened me up because
that was in rap world. That was thought of something
that was just so like, oh you don't do that.
We just come in and wrapping. That's it. It was
never thought of as being a performance and treating it,
you know, like a voice actor would m In the beginning,
because you know, we couldn't afford studio to time. It

(02:07:26):
was like you gotta knocked that ship out with with
two mcs on one microphone. You know, it's just you know,
as we keep going back to context, but now it's like,
do you believe yourself? You know what I mean, Like,
listen back to the ship. If you ain't convincing you,
you definitely ain't gonna convince Fonte, Black Thought, Royce Quest

(02:07:50):
or anybody else. So just listen and see if it's
cutting through in that sense and if I if I
could get the yeah, I think I got it and
I could let it go. And it's not wrong with that.
Like even after Nicki Minaj came out and I noticed
how the way they were producing vocals, which we we
we you know, that's a part of making the record.

(02:08:13):
You know, they took that ship to a whole another level.
And even on some of the songs or some of
these songs, I'm like, I need to, you know, produce
the vocals. Am I am I getting young? Am I
giving away? In? Nah? Dude, man, this is what it is.
Showing the different aspects of the art too, because like
Fonte said, a lot of people do just think you

(02:08:35):
dope if you can get it out of one take.
People didn't even think that, Wait a minute, let's treat
this like art. So no, thank you for that. Now
that's real now, and he's one of the most I've
never worked with much in the studio, but the times
we have were, you know, we've just send each other
stuff whatever. I mean, he is just one of the
most particulous. Like I remember you sent me back your

(02:08:56):
verse for the week Go Off record we did for
my album, and you send me that ship that I
was like, Yo, this is Nigga doing sound effects. He
got it, but it was that it was just what
the funk, you know, I needed and that was what
I called you like to do just that, And you
know that was the time I remember, like when we
was back in I think, man, this was even before

(02:09:18):
Mistrell Show came out, because you were one of the
cats that we were thinking about putting on on Hide
in place. UM. Me and Paul was talking, you know,
about putting you on that record and um and you
came to Raleigh, I think it came to Durham and
we went and got some seafood or something. I can't remember,
but we were just talking and he was telling me
about the time Desired was about to come out, and
he was like, Yo, man, the new ship coming. I'm

(02:09:39):
about to be like Tom Jones on this bitch. You
know what I mean? You talking about you know, the
Body the Body Baby record. I mean, but uh but yeah,
you hear artists and they don't fit. It's all good
like you're supposed to be, like let's see if this
guy fits this puzzle and the ship has to work
like you know, that's an as supposed to be like

(02:10:02):
you know, yeah man, yeah, but everything we've done, like
all the records, like you ever stopped before, I'm just like,
any time I have a chance to rhyme with you,
I'm just like, dude, just say the word, I'm there whatever.
I don't care to produced that, I don't care what
it is, like, I'm going ahead to head. And I
just always appreciated the way that you just always you know,
I could I always tell like the I think when

(02:10:22):
we did the Black Hand Side video, that was probably
the first time that I really saw and I mean
this like in a in you know, in a in
a very beautiful way, just how sensitive of an artist
you were and not like oh man, I'm sensitive, not
like that, but just how intuitive I guess you were
and how you know it was. And it wasn't even
on the music ship. It was just, um, we was talking.

(02:10:46):
I never get this, bro. We was talking and I
think we had finished shooting for the day. We don't
have like one scene left or something. But this was
around the time when, man, don't I think they hate
like Kadafi. This was when all that ship was popping
on with Kadafi and his son had got killed or
some ship. It was something I'm I'm all the history

(02:11:08):
people listening to this interview, please don't crucify me. But
I just remember someone on set came in and delivered
that news and you were just sitting in this chair
and you just looked up and he was like, Yo,
they killed Kadafi's son. And I just would never get
to look in your face like you was just like, yo, boy,
the crackers ain't shit. Goddamn. He was that look. He

(02:11:31):
was like yo. But I just remember seeing that and
I was like, man, like you really, you know when
you said like a sponge. You know what I'm saying,
Like you really, I saw that quality in you, you
know what I mean? And it is what it is.
I don't know if that's a cool thing to even say,
but it is what it is. And I love this ship. Man.
I love I love you, I love I love little brother,

(02:11:53):
I love you. I love. I love the roots and
it's cool to say that, like I'm a hand frind,
you know, not bro, when you came, man, when we
did d C, like we was like one of the
last kind of shows we did before you know, everything
shut down. You know, we had booked d C the
same night, and I hit you. I hit you. I
was like, Bro, I had no idea this is gonna happen.

(02:12:14):
So I didn't even find out two afterwards and so
I hit you. You were doing the Kennedy Center. We
were at Howard Theater and I was like, Yo, I'm
gonna come through. I'm talking to guy and then I'm like, yo,
I'm coming through, and I'm you know, Pharaoh show. Sorry
that for a second, you was doing the Kennedy Center. Okay,
I'm sorry, damn right. You know what I mean. He was,

(02:12:35):
he was in that thing. So no, man, I came
over and like rock with you and and you know,
and then you know, afterwards, I was like, Yo, we're
going to LB show and so y'all came over and
we didn't get a chance to talk out forwards. But Bro,
I never got chance to tell you. Man, that ship
meant so much for me and poole to be on
stage and we're looking in the back and you don't
normally in the back. It might be just whoever, right,

(02:12:58):
but we're looking like behind where the DJ is, and
it's you. I think fame was back there from MLP
guys back there, like it's all these dudes that we
grew up listening to watching us. And I remember Guy
was asking me before, he said, man, you know, if
you want much to come on, you know, just just
you know we got you. I said, no, bro, like
maunch fame. I said, Man, let them niggas be fans tonight, bro, Like,

(02:13:21):
just dang out, you know what I mean, just let
them chill, you know what I mean? And that meant
so much. I wish I could have been in the
audience that it was so packing that motherfucker I couldn't
even go out there, like I you know, if you
know when I would have been a problem. You know.
But like I said, man, you know not, you know,

(02:13:43):
fuck it like flowers, flowers, flowers, you know for what everybody,
it's dope that just be a fan fan. It's fun
to be a fan fan, you know, So get love.
It's dope here, brothers, give love for real. For love,
we we evolved, Niles go to therapy, They'll tell me

(02:14:08):
last week. So yeah, hey, if you love me too,
I gotta sugar Steve Action figure for you for your
top shelf over there are you probably do? I don't
think he probably does joke. But but no, Bro, I
mean I've told you tip top of good. But now, Bro,
you would like one of the greatest like to ever

(02:14:28):
do this ship and you're always MC That makes me,
you know, sends me back to the drawing board and
I hear I'm just like, holy shit, like I gotta
step it up again, and uh to be able to
maintain that intensity for the last thirty fucking years, I mean,
and and with no signs of decline or slipping off.
For you know, I got you know, I posted early.
I bought the thirteen record. I had a chance listen

(02:14:50):
to it yet because I've been like just running around
all day. But uh, but no, man, just from what
I heard, you know, I mean, I was like, yeah,
Mantes doing monster balls, this ship is yeah, the visuals,
everything is on point, man, And I just want to
give your flowers just say thank you for always showing
me that love. I love you. Spanking you upmost brother. Yeah. Yeah.
Prior to the pandemic, I was I was difficult with compliments.

(02:15:15):
After this ship, I'm so good. Yeah, we get your flowers. Man,
Thank you for doing this episode. It's definitely uh, you know,
one one for the record books, one one for our
or what do you call it? Check off the bucket

(02:15:39):
the bucket list, right. I was about to say a
notch in the bed post. Oh no, exactly. You guys
looking good over there, Mr looking Yeah. But thanks, thank
you for doing the show, man. I really appreciate it,
um man, and I'm I'm on it man. Thank you
guys for having me. I need this. I got a

(02:16:01):
new record out. We we we we. This's the first
week we came in at sixteen. We did the tiny desks.
We got a lot of stuff flowing. So I appreciate this, man,
you know, I appreciate it. Man. Shout out the guy
for looking it up. Shout my brother guy. Man, like
absolutely all right, I want be half of pay Bill
Sugar Steve and like yah and far tap. My name

(02:16:23):
is quest Love. Thank you to the great paramounts for
joining us, and we will see you next week or
love supreme all right, Hey, this is Sugar Steve. Make
sure you keep up with us on Instagram at q
l S and let us know what you think we
should be next to sit down with us. Don't forget

(02:16:44):
to subscribe to our podcast, Puss Love Supreme, is a
production of my heart Radio. For more podcasts for my
heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

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