QLS Classic: Bernard Purdie & Chuck Rainey

Questlove sits down with legendary musicians Chuck Rainey and Bernard Purdie to talk through how they influenced and, in some cases, invented the ubiquitous groove that’s become the music of our lives.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Quest Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. This classic
episode was produced by the team at Pandora.

Speaker 2 (00:09):
Hey, this is Sugar, Steve and In this week's QLs
classic episode, Quest Love and I sit down with legendary
musicians Chuck Rainey and Bernard Perty to talk through how
they influenced and in some cases invented, the ubiquitous.

Speaker 3 (00:21):
Groove that became the music of our Lives.

Speaker 2 (00:23):
Originally released April seventeenth, twenty nineteen.

Speaker 1 (00:38):
Ladies and gentlemen, do not attempt to adjust your dial.
This is a special special edition of Quest Love Supreme
only on Pandora. If you remember previously when Sugar to
Steve and.

Speaker 3 (00:50):
I had a chance to chat it.

Speaker 1 (00:52):
Up with brother Herb Albert, we just did a rogue
episode without the family, so we are still family. But
right now this is ague episode of Quest Left Supreme.
I would say, right now we are having a summit
meeting of the gods. We have two gentlemen who have
shaped some of the most daring art, funk, pop, rock,

(01:15):
soul music of our lives. Not of music, but just
of our lives. Our first guest brother Chuck Rainey, his
session resume is life Goals, having played on classic album
after classic album after classic album, projects and musicians such
as Brother Cal Jada, Eddie Harris, Laura Niro, George Benson,

(01:38):
Quincy Jones, ROBERTA. Flecton, Hathaway Crusaders, Don a Berg, Bobby Humphrey,
Marlina Shawl, Sergio Mendez, Marvin Gay, Minnie Ripertons, Steale Dan.
It just goes on forever and not to be outdone.
As a drummer, Brother Bernard Purdy inspired the drummer, who
inspired the drummers, who inspires drummers and continues on. This
man is quite literally unavoid and his influence both men

(02:01):
are his resume. Also to reads like life Goals, name
It Herbie Man, Jack McDuff, James Brown, Nina Simone, Shirley Scott,
Hank Crawford, Gene mm Is, Dizzy Gillespie, B B. King,
Five Stair Steps, David Fat, Anne Newman, Sister Retha, Franklin, King,
Curtis Gil Scott, Heron, Les McCann, Esther Phillips, Kat Stevens,

(02:22):
Hall of Notes, Joe Cockerham, The Beatles, and Yes, Yeah,
I said it, Steely Dan. Please give it up, y'all
for the one and only Chuck Rainey and Bernard Purney.

Speaker 3 (02:36):
It's a QLs.

Speaker 4 (02:39):
Man.

Speaker 1 (02:40):
I really appreciate you guys making it happen. It should
be noted that both of you are kind of doing
the rounds in celebration of a film that we never
thought would see the light of day, which is Uhretha
Franklin's documentary Amazing Grace.

Speaker 3 (03:00):
Many people know that.

Speaker 1 (03:03):
The classical live album that came from those sessions and
in the in nineteen seventy two, but many people don't
know that there was an accompanying film that went along
with it, and it's been a miracle to finally get
it out to the people, and I highly recommend it.
It's a masterclass and a miracle. So we thank you

(03:27):
for coming. So how weird is it to I mean,
you guys are have written history and we just take
for musicians like myself and all my peers take from it.
But for you is it just like breathing like, oh,
it's nothing, like it's just a Thursday. I'm gonna make

(03:47):
history today.

Speaker 4 (03:48):
Like oh, never like that.

Speaker 3 (03:50):
So you're appreciative of where we are now?

Speaker 4 (03:53):
Well, number one, working is important, you know, having a gig,
and of course what makes it better is when you
get paired up with the same person a whole lot. Okay,
and so Bernard and I have been paired up a
whole lot. He's so he's as much a part of
my career as I am. And if I were a drummer,
my man, I would play just like him.

Speaker 1 (04:11):
Well, explain this to me as as a musician asking UH,
in the sixties and seventies, what were the most important
UH traits or what are the most important characteristics to
have to make sure that you are always constantly being

(04:31):
the call guy, being the go to person for session gigs.

Speaker 5 (04:36):
Well, for me, it was always the easiest part.

Speaker 3 (04:41):
Getting the gig was the easiest part.

Speaker 5 (04:43):
Oh yeah, I'd beg What's I knew? I knew how to.

Speaker 3 (04:47):
Beg you you begged for gigs?

Speaker 5 (04:50):
No shame whatsoever, really, And the beauty of it was
I wasn't begging just for myself. I was taking the
credit of Rainy and everybody else that wanted to do
it with us, but Chuck, and I was actually fifty
percent of all the records that I made with Chuck.

Speaker 1 (05:13):
So how in a time in which okay, let's take
the late sixties and a time in which a crew
like the Wrecking Crew were the default go to people
for a lot of West Coast musicians, Like, how are
you able to even ease your way into a system

(05:34):
in which you know, most people just want half the time,
I just hear like, hey, half the people just show
up on time. The other half just shuts up and
do what they're told. They're not high maintenance. Like how
do you infiltrate your way into a system that otherwise
normally would be occupied by someone who's been grandfathered in

(05:54):
and locked into a gig?

Speaker 4 (05:56):
You know, actually that's a great question for me. I'm
a bass player. I've always wanted to just play the bass.
So whenever I get a call coming out of King
Curtis's band, just but everybody came through his band and
King Curtis All Stars in the sixties sixties ended up
in the studio, and I just wanted to play, so like,

(06:18):
I did not maneuver my way into anything other than
just be the best player that I could. And a
new face always helps too, But just just to be
prepared and be able to play, to be able to
read when it's necessary but when and also be able
to just play the bass, So I never considered myself
working at being a part of a group and the

(06:40):
record crew. You know, you mentioned that, you know, like
those guys and Guy and get Out with Carol. They
were la Is a very huge scene, very big scene.
Holly was a big scene in music, and they just
happened to be the kind of selective group that producers
would hire because they were work together all the time.

(07:01):
Between me and Bernard, Paul Griffin and that well you
just basically Corneill dupri Billy Butler, we worked together so much.
Eric Gale, I don't know why that he should have
been first. We worked together so much. If I were
a producer, I would hire the people that are on

(07:22):
your record, that would work for Alan, that worked for
c I mean, I mean you hired the same people
I think now. I Now, don't get me wrong. I
think I'm a good bass player. I think I'm a
very good musician. But but I will say this a
large part of me being involved in so many projects,
it's because a habit. My name was a habit. Who

(07:45):
should we get on a bass, Chuck Raine, just like
who should we get on the guitar? I mean the drums?
Bernard pretty because our names were a habit. We were
on everybody's records, and so usually people hire the last
person that they saw or the one that they remember.
I did. Jams I was a bachelor thought I was

(08:06):
kind of halfway cute to begin with. But I have
a lot of a lot of friends, you know, and
played my bass all of the time, and jams I
played for nothing many many times. That's how I got
into business. I think we all went that way with Eric.
You know, you you got a year coming up, you
don't have a budget, and you want to do it
on Sunday. I'm not working on Sunday. And you tell

(08:28):
me that that Paul Griffin or that Eric Gale or
burn our parties on the yate to what I want
to share it with him. So I played a whole
lot for nothing. I kind of think that that's what
kind of helped both of us in that if I
do something for you for nothing and you happen to
get it signed and then you want to do the
rest of the album, basically people will call the same
people to help them out, and I help out just

(08:50):
about wanting to play the bass.

Speaker 1 (08:52):
Now, I would say that as as a listener, What
made both of you very distinctive in your playing style
is the fact that you were able to infuse your
personality per se in these songs.

Speaker 3 (09:06):
Normally I would think that.

Speaker 1 (09:08):
I mean, I've been told by many a producer musician,
like you know, when you do a session, just do
what the song is called for, try not to infuse
yourself too much in it. But as far as trademarks
are concerned, I mean, I think of you, and I
instantly think of like that's your that's your little business

(09:29):
card or your little graffiti tag left on every song.
So whenever I hear those those near harmonic slide notes,
I know, okay, this is a chuck brainy affair. And
the same with Bernard Purty. I mean, I you know,
I'll be honest with you. So my father was a singer,

(09:52):
a musician, a singer who had his period like in
the fifties and did some stuff in the seventies. He
had a du wop called Lee Andrews and the Hearts,
and so yeah, that's my dad, I think. So there
was a session that producer Billy Jackson was having in

(10:12):
the early seventies. So I was at this gig and
Bernard was the drummer in the gig, and I was
around four years old, and.

Speaker 3 (10:22):
At the end of the session, my dad says aid, here, come.

Speaker 1 (10:25):
Here, and he says, I want you to shake this
man his hand. And he's like, Bernard, I want you
to tell my son how you keep food on the table.
And I'll never forget. This is the first thing I
remember in life. Bernard said the two and the four.
And at the time I was confused, like huh. But
my dad was such a stickler and disciplinary for just

(10:50):
keep it in the pocket.

Speaker 3 (10:51):
That's all you gotta do. You keep it in the pocket,
your work forever.

Speaker 1 (10:55):
And of course you know, when you're young, you're impressionable,
you want to go all over the place. But I
will say that you were able to. I wouldn't know people.
People know about the fabled pretty shuffle, which of course
is kind of a slow down halftime groove, which for

(11:19):
for listeners of today, I would actually say that the
pretty shuffle could be the genesis of what a lot
of trap producers today. I feel like that's the beginning
of trap with the pretty shuffle is basically trap music
today is basically the pretty shuffle minuses to swing on it,

(11:41):
so still halftime, got and a lot of high hat
grace notes on it. But in addition to like your fills, likesps,
all these things, all these fills, how are you able
to insert your personality on one songs?

Speaker 3 (12:01):
Uh? That?

Speaker 1 (12:03):
Otherwise I feel like any other producer would say, I
just want it straight, no filler, Like were you were
producers then giving you guys freedom to add your personality.

Speaker 3 (12:14):
To things, and or you just have free reign of
the land.

Speaker 5 (12:22):
We have never ever had free range. Really, when you
get free range is when you can actually tell the
producer try it, you might like it.

Speaker 1 (12:38):
So you're saying, have you met a producer that was
a little bit like, well that's too much?

Speaker 3 (12:43):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (12:43):
Really you had to fight to get here, But.

Speaker 5 (12:49):
There's fighting is the right word. But diplomacy, that's the
one that I had to learn. That was the hardest
thing in the world for me, because I knew immediately
when you ask for something, what you knew, what you
wanted to, what you wanted to hear. Having chucked on

(13:14):
the base freed me, okay, it freed me through. I
could do the pretty shuffle, I could do the circle
into music.

Speaker 1 (13:26):
So he was the anchor, Yes, and okay. This is
similar to the relationship with Ron Carter and Tony Williams,
where Ron Carter was the anchor of Miles Davis and
allowed Tony Williams to freedom to weave in and out.

Speaker 4 (13:40):
So it's that's very interesting because I would say the
same thing about him. See a lot of my rhythm ideas,
a lot of ideas when I do it, were like
when I'm giving the chord chart. I come up with
great ideas by getting rhythm input from the drums. And
like I said earlier, if I were a drummer, I
know I would play just like him because of the

(14:01):
way that it feels. But like I sit on his shoulder,
he might think he's sitting on mine, but I'm sitting
on his.

Speaker 5 (14:07):
But what he just said earlier, if I had to
play bass, I would be Chuck Randie, and I'd be
better than Chuck ran All my life I wanted to
be better than Chuck Randy, but I can't play the bass.

Speaker 3 (14:24):
Who do you who both of you? Who do you
feel your greatest disciples were?

Speaker 4 (14:30):
Like?

Speaker 3 (14:30):
I would think.

Speaker 1 (14:33):
As a listener, I would kind of think that perhaps
as a drummer, maybe Steve Arne, who played with the
average white man, was a student of yours because he
would infuse your personality and he had a tight pocket
rhythm and as a bassis. I always thought that Willie

(14:55):
Weeks was very severely under championed as far as his
playing style and infusing yourself. But in your eyes, like,
who who were some of the musicians that you felt
or maybe you don't see the mass disciples, maybe they
were just your equal peers or whatever, But like, who

(15:15):
were the cats that you guys enjoyed or or perhaps
were a little like hmm, okay, I gotta.

Speaker 4 (15:22):
You know, I get something from everybody, Okay. Basically I
came out of King Curtis's band. I was there for
four years and he is my musical father hero because
he taught me discipline, being on time, when to do
something and when not to do it. And they're playing tune.
That was my that's that's that's so, I would say

(15:45):
King Curtis. And he wasn't a bass player. But other
than that, what was he like as a band leader?

Speaker 3 (15:51):
Great? Really?

Speaker 4 (15:52):
I mean nobody could I mean, he was the epitome
of a band leader.

Speaker 3 (15:56):
And why was he the go to md for a
lot of these projects.

Speaker 4 (15:59):
That because his talent. It's telling everybody knew him number one,
that he was a great musician. He also knew who
the guys were. He knew who the musicians were that
could play. Okay, And if he called you to play,
he wouldn't have called you if he knew that you
couldn't do it because he was a rhythm If he
listen to the way he plays, he was like a

(16:21):
drummer or a bass player. So I would say King Curtis.
Other than that, James Jamieson has been very influential to
the way that I think as a bass player. So
those two people first come to mind, James Jamison, King Curtis.
Now I could go on forever, but I.

Speaker 5 (16:37):
Was going to say the same, but you can count
me in on King Curtis, Okay, most most definitely. The
other one was my teacher, mister Lezzard Hayberd.

Speaker 3 (16:50):
Okay.

Speaker 5 (16:52):
He had fourteen piece orchestra that wasn't his. It's called
the Clyde Besicks Orchestra. But I got this in my
hometown in Elkton, Maryland. Every Friday and Saturday, that band
played and they played dance music. Everything was dance. You

(17:16):
have to move. You gotta play something simple. Simple is
the key to what music is, and that's what people remember.
They can hum, they can sing, they can do anything
they want, but you need to move the butts in
the chairs, the feet, whatever that had to be done.

(17:39):
They had to move their bodies and the people sitting
can move in a chair.

Speaker 1 (17:48):
Well, let me ask, Okay, So I know that you
guys came from an era and I listened, even as
someone in the hip hop generation, for a lot of
stuff that we gravitate towards. It is all pocket based,
finding the perfect four measures of nothing, fancy of nothing,
just straight pocket. I mean, I have my thoughts and

(18:12):
I've had a lot of arguments on social media concerning
what I feel about the state of Okay. So right now,
in twenty nineteen, we're kind of in the era of
the polar opposite of where you two came from. And
there's a thing called gospel chops, and gospel chops are

(18:36):
kind of like it's kind of like watching an All
Star NBA basketball game.

Speaker 3 (18:41):
Now we know that true NBA.

Speaker 1 (18:45):
Sportsmanship and the mark of a true championship team are
people that know their roles.

Speaker 3 (18:52):
You know, this guy's really good to assist.

Speaker 1 (18:54):
But this guy's good at outside shooting, and this guy's
good at dribbling, this guy's great. A rebounds like everyone
knows their roles. However, in an All Star game, you
do run into the danger of if you have five
Lebrons on the squad, or if you have five Michael
Jordan's on the same squad, then suddenly it's overkilled. So

(19:14):
a lot of musicians today, because we live in a
highlight real era, it's sort of like the musical equivalent
of hey ma, look at me, look at me, look
at me, look at me, and whatever I have to
do to get your attention, I will do it. So
I mean it's it's it's a cute novelty for a while,

(19:36):
but some similar to like a ropodope style, you get
worn out and you've never seen you rarely see musicians
trust the process of playing in the pocket, just playing
a groove without feel free or without Okay, I'm gonna
go off time here and then I'll pick them up later.

(19:56):
So but I will say that in the set in
which a lot of your work is prominent, the genesis
of what I now knew is gospel chops was just
being born. So like when new styles are coming in
as far as bass playing, say, let's Stanley Clark, Let's
say with the playing of Lewis Johnson or even Larry Graham,

(20:21):
where it's like, okay, now, funk songs in E minor
and going all over the place is a thing like
what keeps you grounded and just keeping straight ahead and
being such a melodic pocket bass player.

Speaker 4 (20:40):
Well, I've sort of been trained to first to do
with the leader wants and how they're doing. Also too,
from our generation, the me aspect of us was a
little different, and that the social media was not at
all like it is now. Like I could come to
the studio like Hran Bullock, come to the studio but

(21:00):
naked and play Nobody cares. Now of course, when I say.

Speaker 3 (21:04):
Basically Iron Bullet was a little crazy with this.

Speaker 4 (21:06):
Oh no, Well he would dressed, he would wear no
wearing those shoes and stuff like that, you know, but
he was such a good player it doesn't matter. In
New York in particular, so like we didn't have to
I didn't have to look good to go to a session, right, okay,
unless you're someone like Bernard. He wore stuit every day
he's clean. He was clean, But you know, I would

(21:28):
think to answer that question sort of like today's. I know,
at Victor Wooden's camp, where I'm a regular instructor every year, right, Uh,
they posted my AllMusic dot Com resume on the barn wall.
It's nineteen pages. So at the time I must have
been well, I won't say, but I wasn't. You know,

(21:52):
I've been around for a while. I've been around all right,
and so like in talking to the students and in
my rotations there were two or three students. I found
it hard to believe that I was involved in so
much stuff until I told him how old I was.
They think today they wake up on Monday, they want
to be Stanley Clark on Friday, or they want to
be a Larry Graham, and they don't understand that Stanley Clark,

(22:15):
Larry Graham, Chuck Rainey, James Jamieson. Before you even heard
of us, we had a large background of experience and
playing with a lot of people like I've been on
the road, which just about every R and B act
in the out of the fifties and sixties before I
even got to do one session. Okay, you know, so
like a lot of the guys that day. They wanted

(22:36):
too quick. Also too they wanted for another reason. They
wanted to look at me. They want for that. They
wanted to say, look at me. I'm just a bass player.
I just want to play the bass. I get a
kick out of playing the bass. And I'm a lady
that it shows.

Speaker 3 (22:55):
No, no, no, no, you see, yeah, the opposite.

Speaker 5 (22:59):
Definitely, most definitely everything that he said, I'm gonna double it. Okay,
But I had a big, big problem when I was
coming because I had to beg for everything that I got.

Speaker 1 (23:14):
And I you sure, all right, all right? Can you
give me an example of a gig that you almost
didn't get that you had to like, Please please give
me a chance, because I would think the work would
speak for itself.

Speaker 5 (23:30):
Just one look, and I felt so really, just one look.

(23:56):
Bonnie Richmond came around the corner. He's the contractor. There
was not one drummer, and Sweet and Charlie's the bar,
none around the corners, and the other bar the restaurant,
not one drummer. And I was running after him. Please

(24:20):
please please, I'm a drummer. I'm good, I'm good. I
can do anything, I can play anything. I read music.
I do whatever has to be done. I begged and
pleaded and I followed him for the fifteen minutes that
he was out there looking and this was all a demo. Really,
this was a demo. So I got there. There was

(24:44):
Bob bush Now Hayes, Ernie Hayes, and the guitars Wally Richardson.
They were sitting there. They had been sitting there for
half hour or more waiting for a drummer to show up.

Speaker 3 (25:06):
So they literally came in a restaurant for a bar
to find drummer.

Speaker 4 (25:11):
That's a music Charlie's.

Speaker 5 (25:14):
That's where everybody.

Speaker 4 (25:15):
Everybody hung there, so.

Speaker 3 (25:16):
That was like the holding place in.

Speaker 4 (25:18):
The beefsteak Charlie, Is that the same beef steak?

Speaker 1 (25:22):
Yeah, this is in California, New York, Okay, Broadway on Broadway,
right off of Brother Round on the corner.

Speaker 3 (25:30):
So just one look, that's all it took.

Speaker 2 (25:33):
Charlie's had like all you can eat shrimp right the
peel and eat.

Speaker 3 (25:36):
Uh. The big salad bar did.

Speaker 5 (25:39):
Yeah. Well that was one of the main reasons because
that was the cheapest thing in there.

Speaker 4 (25:45):
Oh I see, and catered to musicians.

Speaker 5 (25:49):
Thank you everybody. Because the musicians would play free in
the place, just to play. They didn't nobody, nobody wanted
any money. They wanted to be there, They got drinks.
They just that was the place to hang. But I
was actually too young to hang. But the thing was, oh,

(26:16):
you're right. But the beauty for me is that all
I did. I asked Ernie Hayes to play the piano,
and Bob Bush now he started playing the bass because
I wanted to find out what the tune was about.

(26:37):
So for me, basically, I just wanted to where the temple.
Just show me where the temple, and then I just
went crossed it only so I could just feel okay.
But I put the feeling into the four people. They

(26:59):
were in the control room fussing and cursing each other
out and everything else and bl and the engineer he
you know, tapped, hey, listen because he had turned it
up just a tiny bit just to hear yeah. And

(27:20):
then they turned they looked, they listened and it was like, whoa,
what's that? Well, who's the drummer who's earned Barnie Richmals,
I don't know, he's been bugging me. He said he
can play anything. I don't even know who he is,
you know, so they listen. She started singing because the

(27:46):
only thing that was missing was where the flavors should be.
Whether you're cling quarner notes, whether you're playing eights, whether
you're playing sixteenth or what are you planing?

Speaker 3 (27:58):
Doted?

Speaker 5 (27:59):
So you just have to know where the rhythm needs.

Speaker 3 (28:03):
To be, can I ask? Okay?

Speaker 1 (28:07):
So, based on everyone that I get on this podcast,
the story always varies.

Speaker 3 (28:13):
I'm slowly finding out now again.

Speaker 1 (28:16):
I was raised by, you know, a drill sergeant father
who's like, you know, you gotta you know, practice five
hours a day outside. No, you gotta practice, which I get.
How imperative or how much of an advantage was it
to be able to know how to read thoroughly? So
when new songs come to you, do you get a

(28:39):
cassette a week at advance or is it just like,
here's your charts, I'm giving you three minutes to look
it over.

Speaker 3 (28:46):
Really listen.

Speaker 5 (28:48):
If I got three minutes I had that was a
lifetime for me. What everybody go ahead?

Speaker 4 (28:56):
We were young, okay, and Bob Bushnell and all those
people were at least ten years our senior.

Speaker 3 (29:02):
Okay.

Speaker 4 (29:02):
So when we came on the scene, we were younger
Eric Cornell, although Cornell were number us involved, but we
were young people and we also had a different view
of what he's saying about the groove. We played the
groove a little differently. I played more rhythm on my
base than Bob. He was older than I was. Now,
what did you just ask?

Speaker 3 (29:23):
Well, I'm like, when you're getting a song.

Speaker 4 (29:26):
Oh, now, will hold it? Hold it right there? Okay,
I'm being very honest with you. Okay, coming from demos,
nothing's written. And we both got involved in this business
doing demos, working for people who don't know sick and
from came here about music, but they have the money
and they have the connection, right, and so they just

(29:49):
hired people to make things up. Like most of the
most of the just make it. If there's a coord chart,
sometimes you will make out your own court chart. I
stopped doing that because there ain't my job.

Speaker 3 (30:01):
But now I always felt like I was lied to.

Speaker 1 (30:04):
You know, when you're eight years old and your dad's like,
you gotta go to Juilliard so you can know. I'm
under the impression that these albums I'm listening to were
thoroughly written out, like part for part for a part
here you go. And then I gotta get the piece
of paper and know one and two, three, and yeah,
you gotta know like I learned. I was taught that

(30:27):
you have to know how to read on site the
second you see these drum charts, because the ain't no producer
gonna have the patience to sit there and wait for
you to figure out, thank you, what it is.

Speaker 3 (30:37):
But are you saying half the time, It's just like.

Speaker 4 (30:40):
Not more than half the time.

Speaker 3 (30:42):
Here's the chords and make up the rhythm.

Speaker 4 (30:46):
Yeah, call to Quincy. All of them. They don't write
no base parts.

Speaker 5 (30:51):
And they don't write the drum punch.

Speaker 3 (30:52):
So they're like, you got it.

Speaker 4 (30:54):
And they're smart because the continuity to the director exactly.
They say, Okay, we know what to do here. Like
Walter and Donald did not know anything at all about
us at all. Garry Katz did because he was a
New York producer, right okay, and so like he would
hire because he knows Walter and Donald. Number one, they're
very strange to begin with. And when I say it's strange,

(31:14):
it's not negative. It's just that they're different. But they
don't know what to play. They don't know what the
bass should do. Maybe they have an idea. They don't
know what kind of drum beat should be there. They
don't know these things. They don't have that well you
know what I'm talking about. Even Quincy never wrote one
note for me.

Speaker 1 (31:34):
Here.

Speaker 3 (31:34):
It's like walking in space and all that stuff and art.

Speaker 4 (31:39):
Now I tell you why that is. Yeah, okay, I
tell you why that is. You have people, You have
musicians that are talented. Of of course, talent is the
word to use, but they are. The rhythm is very important.
Like he said earlier, people want to dance, even in jazz,
they want to dance. And there are certain people that

(32:00):
can give you if you don't know what to play,
If you don't if you don't know what I should
play on this song, I bet you the house, the farm.
I got something for you if you ain't got nothing.
Because I'm a rhythm person and I've had experience. Well
it's only there's only seven notes in music rhythms. I

(32:22):
would think that probably there's thirty two, but I've only
seen maybe nine rhythms for the play as a bass player.
So now when you start worrying about reading, you have
to learn how to read by experience. Now you don't
have to, and you also have to have experience to
create something. But there are jobs that you get that.
We both have clients that write out everything, okay, but

(32:45):
then we have most of our clients that't write out nothing.
Thank you. They hired a person that can come up
with a part. I'm supposed to create a part for
you that sounds like you wrote it. So if you
look at the baselines that I play there, they are repetitive,
like the lines are repented because it sounds like Quincy
wrote it, or it sounds like Donnie Hathaway was different, meticulous.

(33:10):
See before you play anything, truck, before you do anything,
do this first, and I really don't want anything else.

Speaker 3 (33:20):
Okay.

Speaker 4 (33:20):
Now it took a couple of years for Donnie to
trust me to do because, like I was popular, and
I do have a style and a flare about how
I'm seeing things. But he insisted that you play this
first before you do your thing, and I don't really
want your thing. And he was a master, yes really.

Speaker 5 (33:41):
Not only a master. But the point is is that
it wasn't his date, wasn't his. He was writing for
other artists. Okay, okay, So all of this was all
written down written out.

Speaker 4 (33:57):
If you want that gig, you got to know how
to read.

Speaker 1 (34:00):
Okay, Okay, there's so much of you're both of your
collective cannons?

Speaker 3 (34:05):
Are you know.

Speaker 1 (34:09):
So much to dig through? I'll briefly touch on a
few of them, but I'll start with what gig was
considered a fun gig? Who did you look forward to
as a basis as the drummers? Who's the one artist
like we're gonna have fun on this one?

Speaker 3 (34:29):
Really?

Speaker 5 (34:29):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (34:31):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (34:32):
Tell us?

Speaker 1 (34:33):
Okay, let's pick a random song, tell me you're out
rock steady or just a memorable.

Speaker 4 (34:41):
Rock steady is very interesting? Okay Number one. I love
telling this story, Okay, if I get along with no,
that's what this shows. We went down to Miami in
the wintertime. Living in New York in the winter is
different than living in Miami, okay, And so we're going
to Miami Beach and Landing took good care of us.
We were staying in a mansion, you know, uh, and

(35:03):
we played. Now, we went to the studio Criteria one
morning and our car picked us up okay before uh,
Tommy Dowell and Ritha and whoever else was there before
the car picked them up. So we got there first
with Jane Paul. And all I'm saying is Gene Paul.

Speaker 5 (35:21):
Is Let's Paul's son.

Speaker 4 (35:24):
Let's Paul's son. Okay, But Jeam Paul was the second engineer,
second everything that came out of Atlantic Records as far
as engineering goes, Tommy Dowell is the one that they
look to wrong. Jean Paul. He's the one to set
the mics. He's the one to set the anyway, so
we we at criteria. We had a great breakfast. The
sun is shining is in eighty five ninety degrees and

(35:48):
Aretha was there, so I guess Retha did come, but
Tommy Dowell and Jerry Wilston weren't there, and so Dream
Paul set up in the mic. I think it was
the second song that we've done. And and she taught
us the song. She taught us all the songs. She
would sit down and plays, say and teach us the song.
A Reef wasn't there or then they picked a Reef

(36:08):
up the arranger right, and so she taught us the song.
Now I'm when a Reef and and Tommy Diald and
Joy Western got there. We knew the song, but a
Reef job was he was the arranger, so he would
now have to learn the song. So we sit there
and play what we knew. When he would write down
a chord chart, you know, he would write down and

(36:29):
he did that all the time, Right, okay, I write
a chord chard. Now we tracked the song and before
they got there as a demo, we demoed the song
as a demo. So when they got there, they heard
the demo and blah blah blah. I think we worked
all morning trying to improve it, improve, try to improve it.

(36:49):
So what you're hearing on rock Steady is a demo.

Speaker 3 (36:54):
So the only thing this day they went back to
the original demo and kept the.

Speaker 5 (36:57):
Went back to the original music that they heard and
the field and the field that was everything.

Speaker 3 (37:04):
So he came in and tried to change it up
a little bit.

Speaker 5 (37:06):
They always do. They always Every arranger in the world does.

Speaker 4 (37:10):
It because they want to get the producer or the arranger.
They get paid for that, whether they did it or not.
But rock Steady is a demo. If you listen to it,
it almost you can see it in a way. But
it's the groove. It's the groove. And Aretha was playing
with us, she played with us, and so like a

(37:31):
thing about you mentioned the gospel world for a second. Now,
I'm out of the Pentecostal church and I've been immersed
in that all my life. And you can't get no
more rhythmic. You can't get no more feel out of
a good Pentecostal shutdown. You know. As far as we

(37:53):
like the amazing great album, it showed a little bit
of it, Yes, a little bit of it. Now the
border Song is not on it, but but the Border
Song is the most precious thing I've ever recorded, because
it takes me right back to my being being twelve
years old, sitting up in church and listened to the
choir okay, you know, and the feel of it is

(38:14):
that's gospel, That's Pentecostal gospel. And so we both said
that Retha's Fendler and cried. But listening to that that
choir was slamming. That choir was just it was very
large too, but slamming. U. So like it gets too,
I've talked so much stuff forgot what we were talking about.

(38:35):
Rock Steady, rock steady, Yes, that's a demo. We had
a good time that way too. H We had a
very very good time with that we did. I don't
know how many songs we did, but rock Steady is
a demo Andretha played with. She played with us on
every song, by the way, first, Yes.

Speaker 3 (38:50):
How is he as a musician? Not? Not much is
made about her piano playing.

Speaker 4 (38:54):
She is a great piano player, like Marlina Shaw, great
piano player.

Speaker 3 (38:57):
Malina Saw played piano You kidding me?

Speaker 4 (39:00):
What?

Speaker 5 (39:00):
Oh man?

Speaker 4 (39:01):
Penecostal like Valerie Simpson Pentecostal. Both they can play.

Speaker 3 (39:05):
I never knew. And so is the piano play?

Speaker 4 (39:07):
Well, she doesn't playing much because her nails is that
long now any white nails like she has played. I've
been on tour with her for the last nine years.
She retired. Wow, and we just hold the Japan okayd
of thing me and David T walking Harvey mation.

Speaker 3 (39:21):
Does she still do the go away little boy speech?

Speaker 5 (39:24):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (39:24):
Really man, that's after who is his bitch?

Speaker 3 (39:28):
Who's this bitch? Anyway? Yeah?

Speaker 4 (39:30):
I had that record, but Aretha had a lot to
do with. All she had to do was sit down down,
just sit down and play.

Speaker 5 (39:41):
Tinker. She tinker.

Speaker 4 (39:43):
She just played with the field.

Speaker 5 (39:45):
That's like, what's the whole thing?

Speaker 4 (39:47):
Spanish Harlem is a song that crosses two rhythm borders. Right,
it is a to the bar and it's and it's
also a shuffle not shuffle, but it's two different grooves there.

Speaker 5 (39:57):
Right, But it is the idea of it is it
is to make it feel like a shuffle because that
part I got from you.

Speaker 4 (40:09):
No, but I got it from you.

Speaker 1 (40:10):
Yeah, I'm just gonna compliment each other whole episode.

Speaker 5 (40:15):
No, but it's just see for me, I was fresh
out of Jamaica, okay, doing by Mindley and all this
other stuff I had done too.

Speaker 3 (40:27):
You just casually dropped that like it's.

Speaker 5 (40:30):
Well, I made two albums with it, the first two albums.

Speaker 3 (40:33):
Really yeah, that's you.

Speaker 5 (40:35):
Yes, But the point is is that right now it's
it's see, I don't mind anything with anybody. I don't
have a problem if somebody wants to take credit for somebody,
you go right ahead, because I know what I did
also too.

Speaker 4 (40:55):
If you're listening, you can tell the difference between this
drummer and that drummer. You know the difference between this
bass player and that bass player and those And I'm
not talking about musicians, I'm talking about the general public.

Speaker 3 (41:09):
They know the.

Speaker 4 (41:09):
Difference between like Steve Gadd who was a great drummer,
and Bernard Purdy. You can tell just like we're bass
players and I bow a musicians. But a lot of
the people who are not musicians, they cond say, let's
you okay.

Speaker 1 (41:22):
So let's talk about that, all right, I'm gonna get
to the Beatles ghosting story. What session have you What
sessions have you done that you had to go somebody?

Speaker 4 (41:35):
I had to kill somebody?

Speaker 3 (41:36):
No, no, no ghost I've heard sessions of like well
known bands.

Speaker 1 (41:45):
Then what's the basement? Like, Okay, let's get out of
out coming here and sweeten it up for real.

Speaker 5 (41:49):
But it's not even about using the word ghosting.

Speaker 3 (41:53):
We fix okay, okay, so give me some fixing stories
like who have you fixed that you weren't credited for it?
But that's you.

Speaker 5 (42:02):
Well, for me, there's about two thousand at least, okay,
there's about two thousand. I got paid. Can we bet
you can talk about it? But what it is for me,
it's a dead issue. That issue has hurt me so badly.

(42:22):
It as Yeah, see I've fixed twenty one tracks.

Speaker 3 (42:29):
Okay, that's it. There was nothing that she as a musician,
I get it. All the time. I do it all
the times people, But I.

Speaker 5 (42:37):
Was doing what I was doing at that particular time,
is that I was doing the group from France, all
these different countries. They were bringing the music over to
fix music and to make music because it was the
way things were done. The record labels would not pay,

(43:00):
would not that none of these groups would have gotten
signed if studio musicians were not.

Speaker 3 (43:07):
Yeah, I think that that's what.

Speaker 1 (43:09):
Okay, So for our listeners out there, they're a little
lost basically, uh you know, okay, well as you as
we discussed in the Philip Bailey Earth, Wine and Fire episode,
we made some discoveries that yes, you know, occasionally Maurice
White would use a core of a few musicians that

(43:32):
weren't the the central members of Earth were in Fire
either their touring or even the Beach Boys like Brian
Wilson pretty much made bad sounds with.

Speaker 3 (43:43):
The Wrecking Crew.

Speaker 1 (43:44):
Yes, while the people that we know as the Beach
Boys went and tour. But it doesn't make it any
less of a fraud or anything.

Speaker 3 (43:49):
It's just you gotta it.

Speaker 1 (43:51):
Was the way of the world, yes, exactly, and many
many non musicians don't know that's the modus operandi, you know.

Speaker 5 (43:58):
And that is what all the record companies, all of them,
they all said the same thing. I'm not gonna spend
one hundred and fifty thousand dollars on somebody that we
don't know your boys, we like your boys, but you
gotta use studio musicians because what it is bam bam bam,

(44:19):
they knocked the songs out.

Speaker 4 (44:20):
Also true for drummers. I've experiences to the drummer has
to hit the snare at the same place every time ansistently.
But now on the road you don't have to because
sound equipment will make it sound okay. But you got
to use the studio drummer whose use he has the
experience there in the same place, or else you're going
to have a million dollars worth of remixed money. But

(44:41):
you don't have the same way with bass players are good.
I know I'm a good bass player. However, I think
there are a lot of bass players that play better
than me, but they're road based players. When I sit
down to play, when I've overdubbed a lot of other
bass players, mainly because what they played was okay, It's
just that it was not as audible as it should

(45:01):
be tone and tone wise, whereas like I've been I
play a certain way in the studio to make a note,
a particular kind of way.

Speaker 3 (45:08):
Did you okay?

Speaker 1 (45:09):
So was the preference for you to be a road
drummer or a studio musician? Like or is the grass
greener on the other side, Like you're in the studio,
like damn, I wish we were in Europe and you're
on the road, and it's like, ah, I miss New
York sessions, Like what's the.

Speaker 5 (45:26):
No being able to play? And whether you on the
road or in the studio, that is the best news.

Speaker 3 (45:37):
In the world.

Speaker 5 (45:38):
You're working and your name is going to be out there.

Speaker 4 (45:43):
Okay.

Speaker 5 (45:43):
It took the record labels maybe forty years before they
put studio musicians name on the record. When they found
out that they can guarantee ten percent more profit and
not have to do anything. They didn't give us anything
by putting our names on. It gave us a little

(46:06):
bit of something that kept us.

Speaker 4 (46:09):
Like who you know today knows has today? And I agree,
I probably have said the same thing working it's important,
baby shoes the bank and I'm missing stuffing al and
helped me out here, you know, they are very important
for baby shoes and the bank. Right, Okay, you know,

(46:29):
so you have to work for your car. Note, I see,
so you have to you have to make money. You
have to work. So working in live in Europe doing
a session to me is the same thing.

Speaker 3 (46:42):
Are there?

Speaker 1 (46:43):
Could you tell me anything that you guys remember about
the particular Amazing Grace project, how it was presented, and
what the preparations that went into it were.

Speaker 5 (46:54):
Well, I'm sorry that, you know, like world would never
be able to hear the rehearsal.

Speaker 4 (47:02):
That's what I've talked about with somebody today. The rehearsals
was the real deal, for real. And when you listen
to the recording, the sound is not bad. The sound
is good.

Speaker 5 (47:14):
It's good.

Speaker 4 (47:15):
But they should have recorded that album in James Cleveland's
church because we were there all week and we got
used to it.

Speaker 1 (47:24):
You know, so we were you rehearsing James Cleveland's church
and then relocated to Okay, Okay.

Speaker 5 (47:31):
But you know, I've been talking about it. I've said
it for years. If people could have seen seen what
happened in the rehearsals. Besides her singing, she preached, she
actually preached.

Speaker 4 (47:50):
Really oh Oh my, Alan, were you there doing the rehearsals?
A well, you only seven, but you went in the studio.

Speaker 3 (48:04):
I saw you in the studio, so you were you
were seven years old watching this.

Speaker 4 (48:08):
He wasn't there.

Speaker 3 (48:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (48:10):
I the project first came to my attension and I
think two thousand and three, and I saw just maybe
a four minute mark of it, and I was like,
wait a minute, is that the rolling Stone sitting in
the deacons pew?

Speaker 3 (48:29):
Like? How how major was this?

Speaker 1 (48:32):
Like again, I just thought it was a live album
and that's.

Speaker 5 (48:37):
Supposed to be. He was there on the last day.

Speaker 3 (48:42):
And Paulack just happened to have cameras running and.

Speaker 4 (48:46):
Cameras all week, cameras rehearsal all week.

Speaker 5 (48:49):
Really, and you had other folks that are now superstars
that were there early, right, but you don't see them.

Speaker 1 (48:57):
Are there any other projects that you guys have done
that's like sitting in the can somewhere, like you're any
festivals that could be?

Speaker 4 (49:07):
It could be. We're not privy. We're not privy.

Speaker 5 (49:09):
To I'm privy to one, okay, and that was on
Bang Records.

Speaker 3 (49:14):
Okay, another Bang label, well.

Speaker 5 (49:18):
The Bang label of the artists I made their records.

Speaker 1 (49:27):
Don't tell me you're on bricks.

Speaker 4 (49:31):
Mhm, why listen to it? That's all you happen on
druma just listen to it?

Speaker 3 (49:39):
Yes, all right? So uh Brick.

Speaker 1 (49:45):
Our our listenership should know. The lead singer Brick is
the father of Sleepy Brown, who's made a lot of
outcast classics in Atlanta. They're a unit from Atlanta and uh.

Speaker 3 (50:00):
They had a major hit. Uh.

Speaker 1 (50:03):
They wrote a song about their amalgamation of disco and
jazz called Dazz and it was.

Speaker 3 (50:10):
It was a notable hit.

Speaker 4 (50:13):
You know, we were talking earlier about groove. I think
the disco era proved the point that that that Bernard
was making to beat the field. People want to dance.

Speaker 3 (50:25):
How did you feel about four in the Floor. I
feel a certain way.

Speaker 1 (50:28):
About it, or yeah, I didn't like it really because
the women got in your way.

Speaker 4 (50:33):
Only in country music now, being in New York playing
country music is progressive country music now I see with
Lynn Novy, pure country from the West, from the from
from the mountains of West Virginia, except that we got
a chance to put a little bit of this all
this country violin fiddle is everything like that. It's shipt
that underneath it. It was progressive and so you could do

(50:55):
something other than four on the floor. Now, I've been
in Dallas, Texas for the last thirty five years, and
I had to learn how to deal with the four
and the four because the baby's shoes and the bank,
you know, as far as playing with the with the
downbeat of the drummer and also following the left hand
of a piano that's traditional country. I did it because

(51:16):
I had never done it before, and I came out
of New York not doing that right. In New York,
they didn't do that. So Florida four doesn't bother me anymore,
especially when I get to all the babies are grown now.
No more baby shoes, right, you know, but well grand
babies maybe, yeah, well yeah, yep, but daddy taking care
of grand baby.

Speaker 3 (51:37):
You know.

Speaker 4 (51:37):
You had mentioned memorable things from Amazing Grace. I'm going
to say this, I'm probably going too far.

Speaker 3 (51:43):
Nope, not far enough.

Speaker 4 (51:45):
But I've done at least fifteen interviews since she died, okay,
and I'm always compelled. And I talked to her either
at least once a year, okay, and it was always short.
And one thing that I remember about that whole thing's
number one. King Curtis had put together a band of gentlemen. Okay,

(52:06):
we wanted lucy lucy, average musicians. But when we got
to California, James Cleveland went out of his way a
couple of times to remind us that we were in
church and about the women and blind balah blah, and
I remember good, I remember somebody told him to back
off because this was a different kind of band, right.
That bothered me. I am a gentleman, and he also too.

(52:29):
When it came to rehearsing, I felt that the whole
deal was more about James Cleveland and Aretha. I mean
I saw it, I felt it. I felt that it
was all about him all during the week was the pain,
but and how he was doing things. If you look

(52:50):
at the film, although I haven't seen the latest film,
but I do know, there's a whole lot of hesitation
deciding what to do. After each song, He's going over
and talking to what was his name? The Uh he's
in a wheelchair now, Aliceander, okay, talking and Reth just
sitting there.

Speaker 3 (53:11):
You know.

Speaker 4 (53:11):
It's like a service, you know.

Speaker 3 (53:13):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (53:13):
And that there was too much about.

Speaker 3 (53:15):
Him that didn't micromanaging.

Speaker 4 (53:17):
Yeah, well, no managing.

Speaker 3 (53:19):
Okay.

Speaker 4 (53:20):
Now, the only thing that's my saving grace was this,
I just moved to La okay, and I was engaged
to be married okay. And she also thought it was
a big deal, uh to uh to come to church,
you know, and to look at you know, what was
going on, because the Retha was a big deal. But

(53:40):
during the whole thing, people being too protective over the past.
I mean I parked somewhere one time in front of
the church. Guy came and said, my pastor parks here.
That's why I say, well, they should be a sign,
you know, something like that. I mean, I wasn't rude
or anything like that, but there's a whole lot of
a whole lot of California garchy New York kind of

(54:03):
things that you know, the two coasts have always had
a little different kind of thing going on. But saving
grades for me was playing those songs over and over
and over. It wasn't really necessary. As a matter of fact,
on the second day of rehearsal, they could have recorded
the album really, because when it comes.

Speaker 3 (54:20):
To how many days of rehearsal, worthy.

Speaker 5 (54:23):
Will fur four days of rehearsal and the three days
of recording.

Speaker 1 (54:29):
And you guys were that intense with those songs or
was it just like run through?

Speaker 4 (54:34):
And we all knew those we knew what we were
supposed to do. Every song on that album is from
the Gospel Pearl Songbook.

Speaker 5 (54:42):
And I played gospel before I played anything else in life,
So I didn't have a problem playing gospel, and I
didn't have a problem playing for the last forty to
fifty years because I still go and I played with
gospel group.

Speaker 1 (55:00):
So on the other side of that coin, I would
imagine the answer would be steely Dan. But okay, well,
pretty much the world knows how hard or how rigid
or anal retentive or whatever difficult word you want to
put put in that description. But besides the Steely Dan sessions,

(55:27):
what client was also quasi? Its tightly wound as far
as rigorous rehearsals, micromanaging, a session that would make you
want to roll your eyes, like, okay.

Speaker 4 (55:42):
That happens.

Speaker 1 (55:44):
Well, just give me an example. It's hard, but you
played on so many like these brothers us you.

Speaker 4 (55:51):
Forget those people.

Speaker 5 (55:53):
Bert Dicoto, What Burt wasn't that.

Speaker 3 (56:00):
His sessions though? What were his sessions that I would know.

Speaker 4 (56:04):
Very told was like down the Hathaway. They arranged hundreds
of New York artists that were recording here. It's hard
Hard one song I found it.

Speaker 5 (56:15):
One of the songs is uh that the three Degrees,
which one the biggest had that would be like maybe maybe.

Speaker 3 (56:30):
To the hip hop generation.

Speaker 1 (56:31):
Maybe means everything to us because it's been chopped and
sampled and so like three degrees version of maybe, but
before they went to Philly International, that means something to
my my generation.

Speaker 3 (56:46):
So well, you make no but it's new are it's
just super new? But so it's not new.

Speaker 5 (56:54):
It's not new because that's what we had to do.

Speaker 4 (56:59):
And it's new for you.

Speaker 1 (57:00):
Well it's okay, not new for me per se because
I grew up with that record. Let me give an example.
So in my world, uh, there's shall we say, a
guru and his name is James Yancey aka j Dilla,
who was a producer from Detroit who basically made us

(57:23):
just listen to.

Speaker 3 (57:29):
Older records in a new way.

Speaker 1 (57:30):
So this is an example of him taking the three
degrees maybe and what he calls flipping it, which he
will take a song sort of chop the parts and
redo them.

Speaker 3 (57:40):
So heard voice fine, saying.

Speaker 5 (57:47):
I just fell all apart inside because I hadn't heard
that voice in such a long time. I turned around.

Speaker 3 (58:06):
So Diyl is the kind of guy.

Speaker 1 (58:07):
He'll use a record and he's so inspirational. Now, what
makes this particular project notable was that he passed away
from lupus.

Speaker 3 (58:18):
So he's making this it's kind of his.

Speaker 1 (58:23):
He's making this record in the hospital, kind of in
the last months of his life, so he wasn't even
able to talk or be mobile, but his brain was
still able to create miracles. So any record that he
ever uses will then make cats like me turn around
and pay top dollar for those old records, read the credits,

(58:45):
and then study those credits, and then buy all those
records and then buy all those records.

Speaker 3 (58:49):
And so that's what I mean about him being a guru.

Speaker 1 (58:55):
But is this weird that what might be an eye
roll session for you at that time we play, you know,
for someone in my generation, that could be everything. Like
I didn't know that you played drums on Synthetic Substitution
by Herb Bruney, And I'm certain that you're tired of

(59:16):
hip hop historians like, oh my god, you played on
synthetic substitute, like I'm sure that's a footnote in your life, Like,
oh that thing, Like I did that in two seconds.

Speaker 5 (59:25):
But that was the way things were. You guys wanted
something different, so you would actually take and try to
turn records completely all the way around.

Speaker 1 (59:39):
Yeah, but it's just so weird that something that could
be a footnote in your life could be an anchor.

Speaker 3 (59:46):
Like thirty years down the line, Like how do you
feel feel about that?

Speaker 4 (59:49):
I mean, I think it's great, but we don't think
of it that way.

Speaker 3 (59:53):
If you.

Speaker 1 (59:55):
Thought your work on Donald Bird's records are like something
like think Twice or or or I'm assuming like Harlem
River Drive or or fancy dances like all that Bobby
Humphrey stuff, especially now that we have access to the
stems and can individualize attracts and just listen, like it's

(01:00:20):
Pete Rock would die right now if he knew I
was talking to you like you you between between uh
between uh.

Speaker 3 (01:00:32):
The Ohio players, uh turban on I said, uh.

Speaker 1 (01:00:36):
Marshall Jones between Marshall Jones and you like you guys
birthed Pete Rock's whole life, which.

Speaker 3 (01:00:45):
In turn he birthed us. You know, what I mean,
and it just it just goes in circles.

Speaker 4 (01:00:51):
So you guys are in this in this generation. Uh,
you know, you have so much technology that you can
do these kinds of things. We couldn't do that. And
plus you mentioned Donald are that.

Speaker 3 (01:01:04):
You are technology like you.

Speaker 4 (01:01:05):
Mentioned Donald Burn and Bobby Humphy you see once and
we talked about this early. Once you come into favoritism
with one producer, everything they do, you're they call you
everything that Maazelles did. I was a basic player doing
a certain span of time. Freddy Parent and and and

(01:01:25):
and and and and the Isaiels.

Speaker 3 (01:01:27):
What is Freddy Parent Like?

Speaker 1 (01:01:29):
I never get to hear stories about him as a producer.

Speaker 4 (01:01:31):
What was He's one of those kind of people that's
sort of kind of uh, He's able to be in
a room and you don't know he's there. I don't
remember much about Freddy other than he was very religious.

Speaker 3 (01:01:42):
Really yeah, okay, okay.

Speaker 4 (01:01:44):
But once you start working with them, they keep everything
they do. They got their thing. They call the same
people over and over and over and over and over again.

Speaker 3 (01:01:54):
Okay.

Speaker 4 (01:01:55):
You know, I was listening to a a radio program
where Donald Bird's band of the original band of the Blackbirds,
The Blackbirds. They were talking and I kind of feel
sorry for a lot of these guys because I did
three records with Donald Bird. But you listen, but listen,

(01:02:17):
you listen to these guys and everything's made about that
they were the original band, and now they're talking. Of
course they feel freedom. Everybody has an ego. And so
I'm in there with my with my son in law
and and and we're talking about you know, they said, well,
do you know these guys that do not having a
clue on who they are other than that they had
to have been a road band for Donald Bird, but

(01:02:39):
they did not make those records.

Speaker 1 (01:02:41):
I was going to say, that has to be you
on the Blackbird records too, So that's you in Rock
Creek Park and walking rhythm and and and.

Speaker 4 (01:02:50):
The music business is very very good. Bobby Humphrey is
not a great musician, but her records sold a lot,
a lot because of the rhythm session they Jerry Peters,
Harvey Mason made, David T. Walker. We we also work
as a group. Absolutely, are you on love His uh

(01:03:15):
the album with the Love Vibrations?

Speaker 3 (01:03:17):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (01:03:17):
No, oh okay, but I'm glad you don't want to
die right now. You know you you will have a
you gotta you know a lot about sponge Man David T. Walker. Ye,
Love Vibrations. I was here in New York. I just
got the New York when that record came out. Okay, okay,
And David was here with the with the band called
the Kinfolk. Yes, okay, and Love Vibrations is one of

(01:03:42):
my When I heard that record, almost died really because
of the feel and the sound, not so much of
what the rhythm was, although I'm a rhythm god. But nobody, nobody,
no guitar player sounds like David Walker. He's special. You're right,
none you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:04:08):
So I assume with Freddie Pearron, Uh, can I also
assume that the Silvers and the Jackson five are also
under your.

Speaker 4 (01:04:15):
No, I didn't play with the Silvers. Jerry Peters Okay.
Johnson produced the Silvers and that was a little bit
before my time in Hall. For the Jackson five or
the Jackson five.

Speaker 5 (01:04:26):
The Jackson five was the Jackson five. It wasn't, uh,
because I'm the one that also made the records for
the Jackson five at the beginning, which ones the very beginning,
the first one, the one that was written by the
the Corporation. No, well he was on TV. He had

(01:04:51):
his big job on TV. You talk about a producer, No,
he wasn't. He was the actual writer of.

Speaker 1 (01:04:59):
The song Clifton Clifton, Davis Clifton, but never can save Goodbye?

Speaker 3 (01:05:04):
Yes, that's you. What songs are you on?

Speaker 4 (01:05:06):
Uh that I don't don't think of down dancing machine
ship that's you. And I'm sorry, Bill, I know, I
know there's a nightmare for you. Very very interesting too
about when you get to if it's okay, tell it.
I just come from New York, yes, and I was

(01:05:27):
living in Hollywood.

Speaker 3 (01:05:28):
Uh huh.

Speaker 4 (01:05:29):
Now, if you come from New York, you have a
certain New York attitude, especially if you're making money.

Speaker 3 (01:05:35):
That your hipper.

Speaker 4 (01:05:36):
You know, not that you're hip, but you just don't
have to put up with you don't have to put
it with bs right and you and you. The New
York attitude is to tell you when it's full of ship,
oh you know, it's not cool. The Steve approves and
number one Motown had a Ben Bart. I don't mind

(01:05:57):
talking about him because everybody hated him. I did, and
so now everybody knows he was not a likable god.
And I I came up around, not came up around.
But I knew Smoky Robinson, I knew the devastating affair.
I knew. I knew a lot of these these people
because they're from my neck of the woods. Time from Ohio.

(01:06:19):
And every nine and then I would be on tour
with one band from Ohio, this with somebody from Detroit
or from Chicago's anyway, Smokey or somebody else would call.
They had two studios, Sunset and Sunrise, and so they
would call for me because they number one personally.

Speaker 3 (01:06:37):
They knew me.

Speaker 4 (01:06:38):
And plus I did have a little bit of a
rip and Ben sometimes would take the liberty of putting
you over here in this studio, putting you over here,
and I had to straighten him out real quick. And
I didn't mind doing it because I was fresh out
of New York. I said, I he hired me, I
know him, So I'm not going to Sunset. I'm going
So that was one thing I'm getting away from the

(01:06:59):
Jackson five.

Speaker 3 (01:07:00):
Thing I got you.

Speaker 4 (01:07:01):
The producer was a pain in the button. He's the
kind of producer where when you're going to do a session,
he's got four or five people in the in the
control room. His cousin, his old lady is the Bline Blade,
the blind Blah. Drugs were very very prominent at that time.
And when we did a dancing Machine perfect I mean perfect,

(01:07:24):
James Gotson, I mean we we it was perfect. Unlike
the second tape. Yes, but Motown will keep you there
for forty.

Speaker 1 (01:07:32):
Takes just to get their money's worth it, just to get.

Speaker 4 (01:07:36):
In the band. The guy who wrote the song with
me producing, and we got a click track, but he's
breaking the sweat directing us five five music anyway recorded it.

Speaker 1 (01:07:45):
So back then even use click tracks. Huh back then
click tracks were still used.

Speaker 4 (01:07:50):
Absolutely okay, absolutely, So if you know how to play
with a click track, you don't have that.

Speaker 3 (01:07:55):
Problem, right okay.

Speaker 4 (01:07:57):
And it's very very hard for people to play, especially drummer,
the every jump to play with the click track. I've
experienced that in Texas, I mean a whole lot. Now,
so we record the song. I wanted the producers dead now,
but his name is Hal Davis, Hal Davis, Yes, So

(01:08:20):
he decides, he decides that they don't want to hear
the bass, they don't want to hit the bass until
until maybe the third verse. What ok that was his problem.
So now the engineer and James Carmichael wrote the arrangement. Arrangement.

(01:08:45):
James Carmichael told him. The engineer told him, James Gatton
told him, and I told him, all you got to
do is pull the faded down and then bring it
back up. But no, he's producing, he's his noses running,
and he's uh and so he don't want me to play,
and it's ridiculous. No town, I thought was very ridiculous.

(01:09:05):
I can talk about that a lot, right, Okay, However,
so like okay, get a session. About two or three
weeks later, ben Bart calls me. He wants me to
come back and do an overdub, and I ignore him.
I didn't need a motown client, right, I didn't need
a more town. I was from Quincy all the way
down to his father, uh to a lot of people.

(01:09:27):
I was taking care of business, my wife, the baby,
the bank was happy with my butt. So I didn't
need more towns, especially if it's giving me some kind
of And there are a lot of things I'm not
saying that's in that I feel, So I don't I
don't return to call uh to to your girl to
ben buryed, don't return. I don't want to work front.
Don't have to put it that way.

Speaker 3 (01:09:47):
I feel, you have to feel.

Speaker 4 (01:09:48):
And so time goes by. So how David calls me?
Oh number one? Ben Bart had had a happy of
calling you directly on your line, directly to you. It
ain't supposed to happen that way. You ca all the
answering service, the answer service calls you. So anyway, uh
uh he been Burrett. He calls me for for for uh.

(01:10:10):
He calls me to come back. I have to come
back and fix something. Anyway.

Speaker 3 (01:10:14):
I didn't.

Speaker 4 (01:10:14):
I didn't call him back right now. I lived in
Hollywood on Vermont in the in the Oakwood Garden apartments.
That was huge, all musicians stage, you know, it was
just huge. And to get to my apartment you had
to know where my apartment was, you know. I came
home one day and how David's cart was in my
door and he said, please give me a call. We

(01:10:37):
need you to come and fix something.

Speaker 3 (01:10:39):
Uh huh.

Speaker 4 (01:10:40):
So when somebody went that far, I said, well, I'll
give him a call. And so he said he made
a mistake that I had to come there. They had
tried Wilton Felder. They had tried Tom Scott's I can't
think of his name, the bass player. They had tried
two or three bass players to put a baseline on
the front of that song. Wilton Felder said, what you
need to go do is go back and get the
same guy because they didn't have the same kind of feel. Yes,

(01:11:03):
and so they try to do it without me because
Ben Barry probably didn't care much about me because I
would call him down when he called me down, you know,
and things like that. So like finally I went and
went ahead and did it. But the style is kind
of I had no problem just playing the same thing.

Speaker 1 (01:11:17):
I gotta tell you now, it's it's weird because even
the Jacksons are touring now, their bass players nailed every
note of that song, which.

Speaker 3 (01:11:31):
Is not is not It's not usual at all.

Speaker 1 (01:11:36):
Like I feel as though the star of Dancing Machine
is the bass work on It's just unusual. And how
that almost they can come to be is some mind
boggling shit.

Speaker 4 (01:11:52):
Part of my involvement with Michael Jackson in the film
Ben but the back star is called it Jermaine. Jermaine
always tended to play the bass and then he became
a bass player. He's the bass player. So like he
learned him and Kenny burt Ah five stair steps yeah
him and correct yes, yes you are okay, and so so,

(01:12:15):
him and Kenny Burg were always very very to me,
very very I'm trying to find a word, but I
can't rite now, but you know what I'm saying. Yeah,
And so Jermaine, I did his first album. That's that's
me playing based on his first album.

Speaker 1 (01:12:28):
On Let's Be Young Tonight and all those Now are
you playing based on Eruku? Please don't break my heart.

Speaker 4 (01:12:34):
I'm not sure. All I do know is I did
his first album, right, And I remember asking him, said, Jermaine,
why don't you He says, I can't play this. I
will play it. I will be I will play it,
he said, but right now we're trying to get the
record done.

Speaker 3 (01:12:47):
He has a study, right, okay. You know.

Speaker 4 (01:12:49):
So, like Jermaine basically was the reason that I even
got involved with Michael. I did two Michael sang on
two songs. One was been Okay and then there was
another song that he did. But I think my my
association with the Jackson five different. Jermaine definitely because of Jamaine,
and I think for the whole thing around. Although you know,

(01:13:10):
when your name is kind of shining everybody's face, they
do want to get what they call the best players,
who are not always the best players, but the name
is familiar.

Speaker 3 (01:13:20):
Right, like all about the name, I see that, you.

Speaker 4 (01:13:22):
Know, I tell you it's very important, you know, Like
I've run across the bass players to say, I don't
come out to the house this is for one hundred fifty
dollars or for one hundred dollars right, right, that's not
a musician. Okay, you should say I don't come out
of the house if I'm sick. Oh, I don't come
out of the house if it's in, And say you
don't smoke cigarettes, right, And you're going to do a
bar playing a bar like I stopped smoking quite a

(01:13:44):
while ago, and going to playing the bar is totally
beneath me, right because of the cigarette smoking. You know, now,
I know how you do? Know?

Speaker 1 (01:13:56):
So speaking of Motown, you also have you how many
Motown sessions have you done?

Speaker 3 (01:14:04):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (01:14:05):
Probably four or five hundred?

Speaker 4 (01:14:08):
Yeah, well you got me.

Speaker 3 (01:14:11):
You're also and I once you correct.

Speaker 5 (01:14:13):
The thing is is that everybody thinks that it was
all done in Detroit. Half of those things we did
here in New York.

Speaker 3 (01:14:21):
Really, you know what?

Speaker 4 (01:14:23):
Speaking of that here in New York, a lot of
the Motown artists when they were on tour, when they
come to New York, Me, Bernard and Eric, we'll do
a lot of Sunday demos for the Temptations for a
lot of groups coming out of Detroit when they came
this way. That's because of the name value that we had,
me him in Eric, So a lot of times we

(01:14:47):
would do little demo sessions. Okay with withste are traveling.

Speaker 5 (01:14:53):
You remember the Old Jays.

Speaker 3 (01:14:55):
Yeah, talk to me.

Speaker 4 (01:14:57):
The Old Jays are my homeboys.

Speaker 3 (01:14:58):
By the way, Oh Cleveland, the Cleveland Clinton accent.

Speaker 5 (01:15:02):
Well, I had six months out of a year on
Saturdays when they were not working, yes, and trying to
do things, they'd be here making their records.

Speaker 3 (01:15:19):
Wow.

Speaker 4 (01:15:20):
And a lot of people don't know that. It's gonna
blow a lot of minds. Yes, when you look at
Detroit now, I've been to both studios or the one
studio that's now closed, but to the regular studio, I've
been there. Get ready to go there again in June
for the base day. But a lot of people don't
understand when you read a credit, or when you read

(01:15:42):
someone's interview, or when you with someone's biography, you have
to be very careful on what you believe, Okay, because
so many things, like we're just talking about, I would
not be surprised if a lot of the demos that
we made, well, well, I'm not surprised a lot of
demers we made for Detroit artists coming here. Number one,

(01:16:05):
we're not in Detroit. Detroit used the same people all
the time, and they lived in Detroit. Yes, when you
come to New York, you got at least ten bass
players that are different, ten drummers that are different. Well,
I never, I didn't never really care for I shouldn't
say it that way, but I can't find the right words.

(01:16:25):
But the Motown rhythm section was very, very basic. The
only body that was different was Jameson. That's why those
records are so based ominous, if that's if there's a word,
you know.

Speaker 3 (01:16:37):
But a lot of.

Speaker 4 (01:16:38):
Things that we did here in New York helped everybody
go back home and better their record or maybe to
add to it, Okay, that kind of thing, you know.
Like so like we definitely like we look at the
record crew. Somebody had the money, the ego from those musicians.
They're not the only musicians in LA. I've gotten all

(01:17:01):
kinds of not all kinds, I mean, let me stop.
I've gone to these three people that have called me
or emailed me asking me to be a part of
doing a New York rhythm section thing similar similar to me,
you don't need my Okay, you don't need to do it,
and you don't need it. I lived in California for
twelve years. California people have huge egos, right because it's Hollywood, right,

(01:17:28):
and so they can do something like that. In New York.
We don't care. We didn't care. We just didn't care.
There was a time that I can listen to a
record and I can tell you who the bass player was.
I can't do that anymore.

Speaker 3 (01:17:40):
Can't do that now.

Speaker 5 (01:17:41):
Yeah, it's different now because it's just the machine.

Speaker 3 (01:17:44):
Some cats.

Speaker 1 (01:17:45):
I mean, you know, I feel Pino Palladino is probably
the one cat who he holds you and Jamison in
high regards and still to this day on his work
with D'Angelo.

Speaker 3 (01:18:03):
Projects that he does.

Speaker 1 (01:18:04):
I mean, you know, he still has the same precision
based from ninety five Goo jillion years ago. That's in
your hands right now, like he's definitely keeping the torch alive. Wait,
I have just a few more questions. I know we
got to wrap up soon, but I gotta know. So
your work with Leon Ware, I'm starting to realize that

(01:18:27):
it's it's once a producer uses you guys and continues
to use.

Speaker 3 (01:18:32):
Have you ever worked with Leon Ware before? Brother Party?

Speaker 1 (01:18:38):
I gotta say that your work on his record for
many representding for Could you describe any of those, like
the I Want You sessions or any of those?

Speaker 4 (01:18:49):
Well, everything I Want You. James Gaston describes it as
a jam and that there were no notes written. Okay,
all Carmichael did was just put down court changes and
maybe every now and then an ensemble lick or something
like that. What did you just.

Speaker 3 (01:19:10):
Ask me about? No, no, about the I Want You sessions?

Speaker 4 (01:19:13):
And so when it comes I want you one basic thing?
Now that ain't a marking your record?

Speaker 3 (01:19:19):
Okay, it was a Leon record.

Speaker 4 (01:19:22):
Yeah, and Leon always used the same people me, Sonny
Burke or Clams McDonald, James Gotson and David T. Walker
and Leon. When he died, he was worth in the
millions because of his songwriting. He wrote a couple of
things that Quincy did I Want I Want You. The

(01:19:42):
only drag about I Want You was that it was
done in Motown because Leon was signed to Motown.

Speaker 3 (01:19:49):
Okay, I feel you.

Speaker 4 (01:19:50):
You know, going over there was always when I say
it's a drag and I say it's a dragon.

Speaker 3 (01:19:56):
Sometimes business is Jenki. You earned the right, You earn
the right.

Speaker 4 (01:20:03):
But I have never complained I feel you because I
like I said, just like I said, my car, note,
my house, note, my baby's shoes, and a wife was satisfied.

Speaker 3 (01:20:16):
Hey, at the end of the day, man we ket
food on the table, the four.

Speaker 5 (01:20:21):
When you start, and the continuation of the thing of Motown.
The person that was so underrated Mel Brown.

Speaker 1 (01:20:32):
Describe Mel Brown, describe Mel Brown for me for those
that don't know.

Speaker 5 (01:20:39):
Well, he was there and he was covering for Papa
mm hmm. Because half the time he was out of it,
but he played on every act They used to get him,
put him out of the road on the road they didn't.

(01:21:01):
They didn't want him to stay in Detroit, so the Supremes,
it didn't matter, the temptations, whoever he was out with.
He could get home and then one day, maybe two days,
and they get him out because there was friction inside

(01:21:23):
with all the different musicians.

Speaker 4 (01:21:27):
The greatest Motown producer for me is Willy Hutch really
really will He was phenomen not because he's from Dallas,
but he was out work with Willie and he was
a good producer.

Speaker 3 (01:21:38):
Okay, well, you know, so you're playing on the macn Okay,
I'm sad.

Speaker 5 (01:21:44):
To ask Simpson asked for than Simpson. You know, it's
same thing. But see they were from here, from New
York and they were heavy duty songwriters, just like Smooky
Promising or the brothers, the Three Brothers.

Speaker 1 (01:22:06):
Holland you know what, wait before I wrap this time,
I got to ask that the world doesn't know about.

Speaker 3 (01:22:12):
How did you get this project?

Speaker 1 (01:22:14):
This movie Project Lee that came out in nineteen seventy three.

Speaker 3 (01:22:18):
You're drumming on it. It's like.

Speaker 1 (01:22:21):
It's you on a stage with a dancing woman. It's
it's it's uh. It just came on YouTube, like I'll say,
like a couple of years ago.

Speaker 3 (01:22:31):
But do you know this project? How did that come
to be?

Speaker 5 (01:22:37):
It was the first time, okay, the very first time
that I got credit. Oh, okay, okay, and it was
the first black X rated movie.

Speaker 6 (01:22:47):
Oh okay, okay, I remember that movie.

Speaker 3 (01:23:01):
So okay, when all is said and done.

Speaker 1 (01:23:04):
For both of you, what do you feel like your
top three definitive works are as far as.

Speaker 3 (01:23:12):
Can you even do that? Like your three?

Speaker 1 (01:23:15):
What three songs would you save, like the three songs
that define for both of you?

Speaker 3 (01:23:21):
What three songs are they?

Speaker 5 (01:23:23):
Well? Damn okay, rock steady until you come back to me, yes, okay, and.

Speaker 1 (01:23:40):
Uh not one of the shuffles, yes, now that I'm
stilly Dad not uh.

Speaker 5 (01:23:51):
Oh yeah Dad.

Speaker 1 (01:23:54):
Home last okay, okay, all right, So brother Rainy, what
what are the three that you feel are like?

Speaker 4 (01:24:05):
Well, my favorite is the Border Song? Okay, I just
get the goosebumps and sometimes I cry.

Speaker 3 (01:24:12):
It has to. It's not recorded anywhere.

Speaker 4 (01:24:14):
Now the Border Song.

Speaker 1 (01:24:16):
The Border Song was well, no, no, no, no, I'm talking
about the live version that didn't.

Speaker 3 (01:24:19):
Make uh.

Speaker 4 (01:24:22):
We didn't do that on an amazing grace.

Speaker 5 (01:24:23):
Okay, no, it wasn't.

Speaker 4 (01:24:25):
The Border Song. And then also to Home in the
last also gives me goose bumps. It's something about it.
I like minor keys anyway, but it gives me, you
for goose bumps, Okay. Quincy's along Camp Betty is also
something that I really really enjoy playing. Really actually, when
you ask me that question, I don't really have it's

(01:24:45):
hard to pick out three. It's hard to pick up
for me.

Speaker 5 (01:24:51):
He just said the magic words. It's the hardest thing
in the world. Now. I played safe for the last
forty five fifty years by talking about a reason.

Speaker 3 (01:25:05):
But this album right here, and which album is that?

Speaker 5 (01:25:09):
This is done by an arranger and Gary McFarland, Garry McFarland.

Speaker 3 (01:25:17):
Gary McFall, Yeah, creative River Dreams and so many other.

Speaker 5 (01:25:21):
And the point is is that sack.

Speaker 3 (01:25:24):
Full of dreams, not river dreams. Sorry, suh.

Speaker 5 (01:25:29):
I was going up on the elevator on forty eighth
Street to A and R Recording studio, and uh, Grady
Tate was on the elevator. Was so, we're going upstairs,
you know, to record. Wow, Grady, I said, where are

(01:25:52):
you going? You said, I'm going the same place you're going.
I said, well, you know sens to me going up there.

Speaker 3 (01:26:00):
I don't need me.

Speaker 5 (01:26:03):
I didn't know. He also sang.

Speaker 3 (01:26:07):
Oh, no one knew, Grady Taste saying yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:26:09):
Yeah, I didn't know. I've been knowing the man for.

Speaker 3 (01:26:12):
You just coming there to taking your Gruman gig and
that was it.

Speaker 5 (01:26:15):
Yeah, well, hey, I loved him. I loved watching him
and do things, and and the arranger knew exactly what
he wanted, and he also knew that I was gonna
be the one playing the drums, even the ones where

(01:26:35):
he wasn't singing. Man, So we actually did this album
almost live with the whole band.

Speaker 4 (01:26:44):
IM talk about one mills of my mind.

Speaker 5 (01:26:46):
The Windmills was came after us, but this this particular album,
he was in the process of also doing his record,
so I did his record right after.

Speaker 4 (01:26:58):
I see so.

Speaker 5 (01:27:00):
That that they had come from rehearsal together.

Speaker 3 (01:27:03):
Right, and we go up there.

Speaker 1 (01:27:05):
This isn't the first time that I heard h a
weird Grady Tait story where people didn't know that he
was also a singer.

Speaker 5 (01:27:14):
Awesome.

Speaker 1 (01:27:15):
A lot of a lot of my generation us growing
up and on television, never knew that he was the
voice on Schoolhouse Rock, like all those little.

Speaker 3 (01:27:28):
All those cartoons we grew up.

Speaker 1 (01:27:31):
Gentlemen, I could I could nerd out and ask questions forever,
but I gotta wrap it up. But I just have
to say from the bottom of my heart that having
this conversation with you two is is this is one
of the greatest.

Speaker 3 (01:27:47):
This is why I do what I do.

Speaker 1 (01:27:49):
Like you guys have no idea what your your work
and your contribution. And this isn't blowing smoke up your ass,
none of that. Like this, you guys have true are
the architects.

Speaker 3 (01:28:02):
And the.

Speaker 1 (01:28:05):
Gas to a lot of us, not just me as
a musician, but for a lot of us out there,
and I truly thank you for it. Once again, Chuck
Rainey and Brother Bernard party on Quest Love Supreme Special
Edition on behalf of Fun Tigelow both Bills, Sugar, Steve
and Laia. This is Questlove signing off of probably one

(01:28:27):
of the greatest Quest Love Supremes ever. We will see
it next time on the next go round this Quest
Love Supreme only on Pandora.

Speaker 3 (01:28:34):
Thank you Hill.

Speaker 1 (01:28:41):
Quest Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. This classic
episode was produced by the team at Pandora. For more
podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.