QLS Classic: Jason Flom

Music industry exec and activist Jason Flom talks about the couplet that got him fired from Atlantic, signing monster acts like Twisted Sister, Kid Rock and Lorde (to name a few) and everything you need to know if you ever come up against the United States justice system.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Of Course.

Speaker 2 (00:00):
Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. This classic episode
was produced by the team at Pandora Ladies and Gentlemen.
This is QLs classic from January third, twenty eighteen.

Speaker 1 (00:13):
We talked to Jason Flom. Names like plant, familiar with what.

Speaker 2 (00:17):
His impact is felt, name of either Signed or Discovered
or A and R, Katy Perry, Lord Sugar, Red Blue
Man Group, Haley Williams in Paramol, Rolling Stones, Lenny Kravin's Coldplay,
Jesse Jay, and list goes on.

Speaker 1 (00:31):
And this man has spent the first half.

Speaker 2 (00:34):
Of his life and making consisis dreams come true and
the second half of his life in the end his
career shining the light of those who have been wrongfully convicted.
He's the host of Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flom. This
podcast features apps with women who have spent time in
the prison system or trying to fight the prison system
as we now know it. Kardashians of Meat and Hill,

(00:56):
Amanda Knox, Rodney Reed and he's trying to bring them
their freedom.

Speaker 1 (01:01):
I hope you enjoyed this episode. You will listen last
say with Jason for here we go. Just follow us.

Speaker 3 (01:12):
Supremo, sup sup Supremo roll call.

Speaker 4 (01:16):
Supremo Su Supremo roll call, Suprema South Supremo, roll call
Suprema Sun Sun Supremo roll call.

Speaker 1 (01:28):
Swear to God. Yeah, from this day on. Yeah, on
my speed down, We'll be Supremo suck you never know.

Speaker 4 (01:39):
Roll call Suprema Son Su Supremo role call.

Speaker 1 (01:43):
My name is Fante.

Speaker 2 (01:45):
Yeah, and I'm much blacker yeah than the audience.

Speaker 1 (01:49):
Yeah for Uncle Cracker.

Speaker 4 (01:53):
Sun Supremo, roll call Supremo Sun Sun Supremo.

Speaker 3 (01:59):
Roll call.

Speaker 1 (02:00):
Name is Sugar. Yeah, y'all try to stay calm. Yeah,
but on ancestry dot com.

Speaker 5 (02:05):
Yeah, I'm a flying Supremo.

Speaker 4 (02:11):
Roll call Supremo Supremo roll call.

Speaker 1 (02:15):
Bill woke up Yeah with the song on his mind.

Speaker 3 (02:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:19):
Thanks, Jason Flahm. Yeah, for a week by White Lion Supremo.

Speaker 4 (02:27):
Roll was a Suprema So Supremo roll called.

Speaker 6 (02:33):
Yeah, everybody united.

Speaker 7 (02:35):
Yeah, Jason Fea, we gonna fight him, That's what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (02:40):
Suprema Roll.

Speaker 3 (02:46):
Supremo, roll call me Dolly.

Speaker 4 (02:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:50):
Yeah, I'm the Obama. I don't know what to come up. Yeah,
but I'll tell you this.

Speaker 4 (03:00):
Suprema Son Subprevo roll call suppreva su supremo, roll call, supremo, supremo.

Speaker 3 (03:10):
Roll.

Speaker 1 (03:12):
I love a good car crash every now and then
about that. No, you know, use right up there. At
least he didn't freeze up completely like some guests do. Exactly.

Speaker 2 (03:21):
Yeah, no, you handle it fairly with white cleft.

Speaker 3 (03:25):
Tried to teach me how to freestyle. It just didn't
work out.

Speaker 6 (03:27):
Freestyle.

Speaker 7 (03:27):
You don't you start with a freestyle. You gotta start
with the freestyle as hard.

Speaker 3 (03:31):
I don't know that's.

Speaker 2 (03:32):
Going to college. Yeah, just start your basic rhyme. Make
sure and I'm here to say, is your second one?
That's your that's your start.

Speaker 3 (03:40):
He didn't tell me that. Yeah, it's gonna drop some
roses and reddish violets are bluish. You know. I'm not
very religious, but if I was, i'd be Jewish. But
it just like it is.

Speaker 1 (03:49):
Steve is in love already, man.

Speaker 3 (03:51):
I mean, yeah, I got a nice little diverse crowd here,
you know what I mean? Thank you very twenty eighteen,
very much too much.

Speaker 1 (03:57):
Solf missing one of our white guys. Yeah we are,
actually yes, he's actually he's at his job.

Speaker 2 (04:03):
We're hooking from our job to be here at this
other job anyway, Ladies and gentlemen, our guest today. He
has entered the professional music world or the industry, in
his early twenties as an A and R REP, later
as head in Our Atlantic Records. Might I also add
under the Urdigon iron Fist, which basically means that he

(04:27):
literally learned from the best h He's signed Twisted, Sister,
White Lions, get Row, Tori Amos, Stone, Temple of Pilots
name a few, and in nineteen ninety five he co
found it or found it Lava Records, which was an
Atlantic subsidiary signing the likes of all the nineties t
R L staples like Kid Rock and Uncle.

Speaker 1 (04:48):
Cracker and oh Yeah, Massbox twenty Core in Sugar Bay,
I believe yeah. And then since.

Speaker 3 (04:56):
Then, those days were fun.

Speaker 1 (04:59):
I can imagine. Yeah, I was in college with those
Sugar Records.

Speaker 2 (05:03):
And since then and his world domination mission. Uh you,
I'm sorry you. I'm telling you what you did. He
led the Virgin in the Capitol Records merger, working with
the Rolling Stones, Lenny Kravitz, even Coldplay, particular favorite of fantees.

(05:24):
I'm sure that you have gazillion questions not to mention
He's led many to the Promised Land. It's such unknown
acts as Katie Perry thirty seconds to marsh multiple multiple
plantum x, but way it gets worse.

Speaker 1 (05:43):
He's also the founding member of the Innocence.

Speaker 3 (05:47):
Project founding board member.

Speaker 1 (05:48):
The founding board.

Speaker 2 (05:49):
Member, I'm sorry of the Innocence Project not to mention
the Bronx Freedom Fund FAM, which is a great acronym
for Families against man intory minimums UH, basically trying to
ensure that those that are caught up in the law
with wrongful convictions get their proper due in court, get retrials,

(06:13):
get get out, Yes, get freedom. Yeah, we can go
on and on and yeah. She also signed Jesse, j
and Lord. I'll add at the end, ladies and gentlemen,
please welcome to our first show of the new year.

Speaker 1 (06:26):
Jason flomp to question.

Speaker 3 (06:27):
Thank you very much, dude, I'm happy to be here.
Kind of an honor. Actually, we've gotta be honest.

Speaker 2 (06:33):
We're excited because you're a true record man, but you're
also freedom fighter.

Speaker 1 (06:39):
Like one of the last record man like this.

Speaker 2 (06:41):
Dude, you knew I'm at Urnigan, which means something to
someone that's watching from afar. I don't know how much
that means to you, but that means, like it.

Speaker 3 (06:50):
Was incredible everything around that man. I mean he was
he was every bit the legend that everybody thinks he was,
and uh maybe the greatest of all time. You know.
When he was on it was, you know, and I
caught the tail end of that. But then I got
to work under him. You know, he became more of
like an honorary chairman. But I got to work under
him for twenty five years. I mean it was an awesome,

(07:13):
awesome experience. I mean, what else can you say? The
guy died at Rolling Stones concert, you know what I mean?
Like to the end, right, he was a legend to
the fucking end, I mean the best.

Speaker 2 (07:21):
So would you consider yourself the last of his? Of
his disciples? Like, I feel like those that have studied
under him have went on to you know, reach further
than other people in the music business, probably rivaling maybe
Clive Davis as far as influences concern Like, would you
consider yourself the last of his?

Speaker 3 (07:41):
Well, I don't know, you know, I guess Craig Kalman
came up under him as well. And Craig's obviously done
amazing stuff. Still does, and so you know, we worked
together for a while and yeah, so it was it
was just an amazing time to be growing up in
the music industry. You know, I actually started Atlantic when
I was eighteen, and you know, the first time I

(08:03):
met omit, which is really kind of tell us. So
I started off putting up posters in record stores, which
I thought was the greatest job in the world. I
had a staple gun, some double sided tape, some led
Zeppelin posters, a CDC sister sled Chic. I mean, it
was just it was incredible mid seventies. You were there
was seventy nine. So I run around the record stores

(08:23):
and climb up on ladders and put up posters and
like it was just it was a great way to
meet girls. I was incredible.

Speaker 1 (08:29):
So the PA job, I'm laughing.

Speaker 2 (08:33):
Wait, let me just pause this all right, for those
that you that don't know, I meant the the mom
and dad.

Speaker 1 (08:39):
The mom and pop.

Speaker 2 (08:40):
Record store was a staple of the seventies and the
eighties more than what the chains were in the in
the Tower records. But me as a kid growing up
in the seventies, going to the mom and pop stores
my favorite part of that whole experience was seeing the
window display of how those posters would go up, of

(09:03):
which when I would go home and everyone would play house.

Speaker 1 (09:06):
Or whatever, I played records.

Speaker 2 (09:08):
I used to do that too, and like because some
of that I didn't know that some of those, like
J cards and cards were not records, they were posters,
so they'd be bent in a particular way. So I
would take my father's records and try and then the record,
Yeah I broke, like the Honey record, broke the Commodore's
debut album, trying to staple them to the wall and

(09:31):
bend them a certain way. So you are who I
have to blame for many a punishment.

Speaker 3 (09:36):
Well knowing that, but probably half of my displays were
either crooked or upside down because I was so stoned.
So because I mean, weed was a big thing back then.

Speaker 1 (09:45):
Man, I I.

Speaker 3 (09:46):
Got news to tell you. Yeah game But anyway, Yeah,
So I had this great job. I thought it was
the greatest job in the world, and I got free records.
I was like, this is it, Like I've peaked at
eighteen years old. I can't do better, right, And then
I discovered a band called Zebra right, and it's a
crazy story how that even happened, But it doesn't matter.
I determined that I wanted to get a job doing

(10:07):
A and R because it looked like a great job
to me, And so I found a band. Through a
series of luck and synchronicity and serendipity and perseverance and
a little bit of intelligence, I managed to find this
band and became a hit. So they gave me a
job doing A and R. I must have been twenty
years old. I got a little office at Atlantic Records,
and one day I'm sitting in there hi with the

(10:28):
drummer from my high school band. We were actually in
there hanging out like pondering, as we had just gone
out and smoked a couple of joints. We came back
and we were sitting there just in fucking amazement and
shocked that I was getting paid to listen to music.
I was like, how is this even possible? Right? I
can't believe it. So, as we're sitting there in this haze,
am It's secretary knocks on the door. Her name was

(10:49):
Jenny Lynn. She knocks on the door and she pokes
her head and she goes, AHMUT would like to see you,
And I go you're fullest shit. And then he looks
in and goes, no, she's not. And I was like, oh,
give me, I gotta get cleaned up here. What am
I going to do so with that fresh buzz on,
you know? So I went in his office. Man, he

(11:11):
had some kid in there that he had met in
a club in the Bronx, you know, because he used
to go clubbing and ship right, and this kid, I remember,
this kid was taking a cigarettes cigarette butts out of
the astray and relighting them right, and I was like,
he was kind of a desperate looking kid, but he
was on some like crazy type of music thing that
I didn't even understand. I mean, I don't want to
tell im. You know, I'm a rock guy. I don't
know what the fuck you're talking about. I was just like, hm, yes,

(11:34):
I was good. What was I gonna say. I'm sitting
there in the presence of the greatest like a deity,
and I'm high and I don't know what the hell's
going on. I don't even know how I'm here. So
it was it was an amazing It's an amazing way
to start a relationship. Who was the kid? I don't remember.

Speaker 2 (11:53):
I can't remember but that was your first band. That
was the first Byeah.

Speaker 3 (11:57):
They had a song called Who's Behind the Door that
was a.

Speaker 1 (11:59):
Big he was signed to Atlantic.

Speaker 3 (12:00):
You signed them to Yeah, and they sounded exactly like
led Zeppe, Which is funny because I have a band
now called Greta van Fleet who also sound like led Zeppelin,
and they're blowing up. They're actually they may actually save
rock and roll. These kids, it's incredible. I think they're
going to I mean, it's really fun. They're they're great musicians.
He sings like fucking Robbert Plant and the kids are
eating it up. So I think the I think the tide,

(12:21):
the pendulum is swinging back to rock and roll.

Speaker 2 (12:23):
I gotta ask how how I mean you're you're lucky streak.
I mean, you know, i'd be rereminious to say that.
You know, the artists that you sign, you know, with
the help of MTV, you know, you kind of route
each other. A lot of the artists that you sign
that blew up your first wave, your Twisted Sisters, your

(12:46):
your first wave of metal bands that you signed to Atlantic.

Speaker 1 (12:50):
Uh, how do you feel about the.

Speaker 2 (12:54):
Theory of having good ears or that whole theory of
did you were you like the new blood that beyond
the ears and like they have a look, they have
a charisma. I mean just the fact that seventies X
were about Okay, they sound good.

Speaker 1 (13:11):
You know they could be ugly and still have a hit.

Speaker 2 (13:13):
Yes, the Christopher Cross exactly what was exactly what my
head like, I am a twist assisterm fan. I knew
all those That's how you know it's successful. When I
knew I want to rock and all that ship like.

Speaker 3 (13:33):
Well, twisted Sister was a different story because what happened
was I had found Zebra, and I was so excited
because then I got this little office and a little
job doing A and R because they were having a hit.
And then and then the guy from Zebra his name
was Randy Jackson, not the Randy Jackson that we're all
friends with, but the different Randy Jackson.

Speaker 1 (13:48):
So there's a third one, not Michael's brother not.

Speaker 3 (13:51):
Yeah, a lot of them jests, right, you know you
can google that. You can actually google how many of
me dot com and you can see how many people
have your same name. And there's four Jason Floms in
this country, you know. So but anyway, yeah, yeah, she's
on it. So anyway, so the guy so Randy says
to me one day Flom, he goes, Twisted Sisters the
greatest live band in the world. He goes, we can't

(14:13):
touch him, and neither can anyone else. And I was like,
no shit, okay, well let me check this shit out,
you know. So I went up to, uh, Poughkeepsie on
a Wednesday night, and uh, for those of you who
don't know, I Poughkeepsie's about one hundred miles north of
New York City, and uh, it's funny name, Poughkeepsie. But anyway,
Zebra was opening for Twisted Sister, which I thought was
kind of weird because Zebra was signed to Twisted, was it.

(14:33):
And anyway, there was three thousand kids that are on
a Wednesday night at six Bucks ahead and we're talking whatever.
This was nineteen eighty eighty one when six Bucks was
six bucks, right, and uh, every one of these kids
is wearing a Twisted Sister T shirt. And d Snyder
comes out on stage and it's like thunder in there, right,
the kids are about to riot. And he gets up
and he goes, all right, New York. He goes, we

(14:56):
just got back from fucking England. We're sick and fucking
tired of here was lie me, motherfucker's telling us how
bloody fucking good we are. What do you New York
motherfuckers have to say? And all three thousand kids throw
their fists in the ear and go twisted fucking sister.
And I was like, get the fuck out of here.
I don't even care if they can play their inscrments,
it doesn't matter. Nothing matters from that point forward. I'm like,

(15:19):
this one comes with instructions, you know what I mean.
And then of course they put on that crazy live show,
which was amazing. I mean, because they had done thousands
and thousands of shows by that point, nobody would sign them.
They were considered a joke. The funny thing was, I
come back to the city. I drove back with the
guitar player JJ and uh. I don't know if I
got home at four or five or whatever the hell
it was. And I walked into my boss's office the

(15:42):
next morning on two hours of sleep, and god knows
how many kinds of you know, Intuxicans exactly, thank you.
And I walk in and I go, I found religion
last night, and he goes, what the fuck are you
talking about? And I go Twisted sister, and he goes,
get the fuck out of my office. And I was like,
I didn't know that they were considered it.

Speaker 2 (16:02):
So they were already known as a joke amongst the.

Speaker 3 (16:04):
They'd been passed on so many times by everybody's the
music industry. Now they were you know, back then, they were,
you know, known for wearing women's right Sometimes you'd come
out on a dog collar with a chain or he
did you know, makeup and finging out possible by the way,
who cares, right, Rocky Horror was a hit anyway, so yeah, kiss, yeah,

(16:25):
But anyway, nobody would sign him, and I went to
see him again the next night in South Jersey. Had
thirty seven hundred kids there, and I was like, this
has got it. This is my mission and life. The
funny thing was I finally got shut down permanently, and
they would not sign. My boss would not sign him,
no matter what. He threatened to fire me if I
ever mentioned the name Twisted.

Speaker 1 (16:42):
Who is your boss at Atlantic?

Speaker 3 (16:44):
You're actually going to call him out for this? I
don't know about that.

Speaker 2 (16:46):
Let me so many years years anyway, the president of
Atlantic back then, so not on it.

Speaker 1 (16:53):
Okay, okay.

Speaker 3 (16:54):
So, so the funny thing was, I saw the head
of the English company, guy named Phil Arson, in the
hallway one day. I knew he was I didn't know him,
but I knew he was like a serious guy, like
he had signed a c DC and shit, he was
like a real guy, you know. I was like, So
I go up to him. I go, mister Carson, here's
the I told him this whole story. I'm like stumbling
over my words. I'm so excited to write a hand
on the thing or everything. He told me. Later he

(17:15):
threw the whole thing in the garbage. But then he
happened to see them opening by accident for I think
Foreigner or something in London. One day he calls you up.
The next day he goes, this is the best thing
I seen since I saw I see DC. I'm gonna
sign him. So he signed them. We backdoored it into
America and then ultimately, of course they became a monster
hit and it was a lot of fun while it lasted.

Speaker 2 (17:35):
You know, well, yeah, I mean, I guess till what
eighty Well, they at least had two.

Speaker 3 (17:40):
They had one. The first album was like a moderate success.
It's called You Can't stop rock and roll. And the
second one was stay Hungry, and of course that was
We're not going to take it and I want to
rock and you know all that's.

Speaker 6 (17:49):
What I'm not gonna take it. That changed my life.
That even old enough to remember that I remember the
video was really I thought you.

Speaker 1 (17:56):
Were born.

Speaker 2 (18:00):
Your older siblings told you about it, yeah.

Speaker 7 (18:04):
On the internet. But yes, yeah, we're not going to
take it.

Speaker 1 (18:07):
Everything good, So I guess you would.

Speaker 2 (18:11):
I guess one could say that you were like the
new blood at Atlantic, Whereas, because I've seen this happen
where something doesn't translate to someone that's a baby boomer,
like say one of your NR peers who was born
maybe in like forty three, forty four, forty five that's

(18:31):
slightly older that you know, thinks that this is just
you know, trash and wouldn't translate is absolute garbage, whereas you,
being slightly younger being I guess you could say a
generation xer.

Speaker 1 (18:51):
Finds make sense of it all.

Speaker 3 (18:54):
And so yeah, I mean I loved you know I
grew up on When I was a kid, my favorite
artist were Zeppelin, Arrowsmith, the Beatles, Bob Dylan. You know
those wuld probably be my top four, but there were
so many. I mean, back then you had you know,
Queen would definitely be my top five too. I mean
that those are the greatest. It was like a renaissance
to me, you know, musically in America and the world

(19:16):
actually because a lot most of those actually came from England.
But it was just an incredible period. But I grew
up on guitar music, right, I like guitar music, and
so to me the hard rock bands, and it peaked
with Guns and Roses. Obviously I didn't sign Guns and Roses,
but that that era was. It's actually I think a
lot of those bands are underrated. I mean some of
them weren't. Some of them were terrible, but you know,
some of them were actually underrated. And I think skid

(19:39):
Row was a great band, Like I mean, he was
an incredible singer and those first two albums were magical.

Speaker 2 (19:45):
So did you sign all of the hair metal acts
of Atlantic?

Speaker 1 (19:49):
Were you responsible for most of them?

Speaker 3 (19:51):
I didn't sign Rat I missed that one, but most
of them I signed, And you know it was uh.

Speaker 2 (19:59):
Which one got away that you almost freaking had and love.

Speaker 3 (20:03):
I've been in therapy for years trying to forget them.

Speaker 2 (20:07):
You give me your top three, your top three could
have had him in.

Speaker 3 (20:11):
Oh fuck, I mean I listened. I had a meeting
with bon Jovi early on, you know what I mean. Now,
now bear in mind, I think that bon Jovi signing
to Mercury was the best thing that could happened to
him because they made a decision that they were going
to put the whole building behind him, because they were
going to go broke if they didn't break somebody. And
you know, remember that company was or it was a PolyGram.
They were being sold for fifty million dollars, the whole company,

(20:32):
and also some genius at that company had the idea
to put them together with Desmond Child, which on paper
wouldn't seem to make sense, right Desmond was like a
gay guy disco songwriter, like bon Jovi was sort of
this like macho kid from New Jersey doing rock and roll.
But somebody had that vision to put them together. And
that's where the greatest songs came from, was that collaboration. Okay,

(20:52):
so you know, so who knows. You know, we can
go back through history and you know and see what's what,
But that would certainly be you know.

Speaker 1 (21:00):
You could have had him.

Speaker 3 (21:02):
I think we could have had him. I think, you know,
we came close. What else did I come close on? Oh?
I mean I tried. I tried like hell to sign Tool,
but I didn't get them. I would have loved to
get a Tool. Yeah, I mean, I don't know why.
I still don't know why. I mean I schmoozed them
and did whatever I could and didn't get it. And

(21:23):
I can't think of the third one. It'll come back
to me.

Speaker 2 (21:25):
So as a rock and guitar guy, I just have
to know, from a professional standpoint, what was your feelings
about the watershed moment in which Nirvana arrived and sort
of rendered kind of the domino setup that you have
for the eighties almost.

Speaker 1 (21:45):
Void. I mean, I've heard tales of artists speaking, So
what was your when Nirvana came along and sort of
marked the end of the hair metal guitar acts.

Speaker 2 (22:00):
Did you feel a particular way about their arrival or
were you like, Okay, well this is this is on
to the new and let me, you know, get ahead
of the pack and see what else is out there?
Or were you sort of a traditionalist hair metal and
you know.

Speaker 3 (22:16):
You know, I felt like you could kind of see
it coming because my feeling is that my theory is
that the musical trends are dictated by whoever makes the
best music. Right, That's how musical trends happen. Is that
the most creativity.

Speaker 1 (22:30):
Are you sure about that though? I think so?

Speaker 3 (22:32):
Why what do you think you.

Speaker 1 (22:33):
As the most money?

Speaker 2 (22:34):
Because there's musical trends happening now that isn't necessarily the
best music, but it's popular. Like can you separate the
difference between popular and what you feel in your heart?

Speaker 3 (22:47):
Well, that's a very deep question, right, I mean, you know, Okay,
let's not call it musical trends. Then let's talk about movements.
Important movements happen, right, and then you can go back
to like it's it's interesting when even going back to
when disco happened, right, Why did disco happen because the
creativity was incredible back then, right? Or why did rap

(23:08):
come up? Right? And why is it still what it is?
Because there's actual geniuses making music in that genre. Right.
There haven't been any rock and roll geniuses probably since
Jack White, So you know, it's hard for that to
maintain when you don't have that influx of creativity that
you that you need to sustain a movement. And then

(23:29):
even going back to what you were asking about with Nirvada,
the hair band thing, like I said, it peaked with
guns and roses and then it went off a cliff. Right,
you had bands coming up and actually getting over that
were terrible. I mean, and we can name them if
we want to, but it was okay, so.

Speaker 1 (23:45):
Yeah, I.

Speaker 3 (23:47):
Mean, you know, I don't want to mention names, but
bullet Boys and Trickster and fire House and like.

Speaker 1 (23:54):
So eventually I grew up in Indiana.

Speaker 3 (23:56):
Man, Okay, there you go. So yeah, you can kind
of see like this was not this was like imitation stuff.
And if they're listening, you know, I'll probably get like
nasty direct messages on my Instagram, but whatever. You know,
the fact is, you know, it was ripe for change,
and there has there's always a reaction. And then all

(24:18):
of a sudden, the Seattle sound came up and you
had geniuses again, right, you had Nirvana. I mean, I
think Alison Chains was incredible. Obviously, Pearl Jam is music
that people will be listening to one hundred years from now.
So it's unfortunately, like I said, in guitar music, I
think that was the last wave of music that will
be time capsule music.

Speaker 2 (24:36):
I have a slight theory though, because okay, because hip
hop was created out of sort of the impoverished conditions
of the inner city, and thus this culture comes in
seventy seven. I have a weird feeling that what's going
on right now in society, ticularly with the slow rise

(25:03):
or the you know us finally acknowledging the literal white
elephant in the room of the the alts right kind
of the the the anger, be it justified or unjustified, whatever,
you know, whatever your feelings are about it. But I
almost feel like it's it's that anger that might spark

(25:25):
up rock and roll, like what we knew as rock
and roll, which was non existence, because I mean, the
reason why hip hop sort of replaced rock and roll because.

Speaker 1 (25:35):
It was angrier.

Speaker 2 (25:37):
Like it's it's like after fuk the police.

Speaker 1 (25:39):
Like where do you go for? You can't you can't
get any deeper.

Speaker 2 (25:44):
And as far as like hip hop's concerned, always felt
that fifty.

Speaker 1 (25:49):
Killed hip hop easily.

Speaker 2 (25:51):
After after well, no, no, I know where you're going
with because after fifty was there was no more money
after yeah, after after heat, after you get sad times
and make it. It's like, okay, how do you become
exactly like he said, I'll kill you? And then that's it.
After that song and heat with you know, the song

(26:13):
with Doctor Dre had the gun gun shot snare, like
to really drive the point home because you missed it.

Speaker 1 (26:20):
That was the end. That was like you couldn't get
no more extreme in that.

Speaker 2 (26:24):
And then hip hop is now you know, user friendly,
it's heavy baton.

Speaker 6 (26:28):
You think rock and roll is ready to pick that up?

Speaker 1 (26:31):
Is trying I think like Scrillics is trying to.

Speaker 2 (26:33):
But I feel like this general, I feel like millennials
are so all inclusive with mixing their cultures and everything
that not even ed m was scary, even though that was.

Speaker 1 (26:42):
Supposed to be the supposed to be scary.

Speaker 2 (26:44):
The bus noise, I mean that was supposed to be
like every generation has their rebel noise. We had eight
to weight, the seventies had guitars like the the war war.

Speaker 1 (26:55):
Sorry you didn't think that weight was I figured it
would have been the scratch to the record scratch the
way it's pretty scary though.

Speaker 2 (27:04):
Well not scary, but just the presence that it is
impact And I feel like some anger is going to
come out in music again, directed or misdirected, poverty or not.

Speaker 1 (27:18):
And I feel like.

Speaker 6 (27:20):
I wish you to hurry up, you know, do you
feel that because you're there.

Speaker 5 (27:26):
I'm still waiting for it to happen. When he said
it was gonna happen during the Bush era, so yeah,
I was wrong.

Speaker 3 (27:31):
Yeah, it's actually weird that it hasn't happened, because if
there was ever a time to get angry, it's now.
I mean, it's never been more obvious, because I mean,
ship George Bush looks like George Washington all of a sudden,
the worst president ever, all of a sudden, everybody's wishing
he was back. I mean, if we could have a
national referendum and bring him back, I'd lead it, you
know what I mean?

Speaker 7 (27:51):
Yeah, at their current conditions.

Speaker 3 (27:54):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, any one of them. Absolutely, Barbara Bush.

Speaker 7 (27:58):
Yeah, But you know what, maybe because music has become
so corporately involved and I don't know, with the whole
scaring of the NFL and things, do you think maybe
artists are taking note of that.

Speaker 6 (28:10):
And I'm speak a little and I'm a Graham, but.

Speaker 3 (28:14):
Like, how crazy that the civil rights leader of our
era is a quarterback, right, I mean, how crazy it's
supposed to be music. I don't know what's going on.
I mean, Dixie Chicks.

Speaker 1 (28:25):
I don't think.

Speaker 2 (28:27):
People don't want to mess up their money. Like that's
what I'm asking Like a musician now.

Speaker 1 (28:31):
Like you want to be.

Speaker 2 (28:32):
They want to be in bed with all the corporate
sponsors and all of that ship. So they don't want
to say anything that will remotely even fuck up the
chances of them getting some outside bread.

Speaker 1 (28:40):
They want that Kitcat commercial.

Speaker 2 (28:41):
They want a kit Cat commercial, they want to Sprite commercial,
they want all that, but.

Speaker 3 (28:45):
There's gotta be some I mean, that's a really, that's
that's it. It really hurts me to hear you say that,
and it's kind of it feels that way if it's
very cynical and it's like it sucks, you know. I mean,
somebody's got to come out and be the new dealan.

Speaker 1 (28:55):
You would have to be the have not.

Speaker 2 (28:57):
Like whoever's going to be the new dealan is has
to be a half not and be cool with being
a half not. I mean, you know, hip hop has
already tainted. You know, did he came along too much money?
Did he came along and showed us all these yachts
and ship and you know, I mean, I'm.

Speaker 6 (29:14):
Trying can trick it somewhere, you know, you.

Speaker 3 (29:15):
Know, you know what's the best protest song I've heard
in a while? Did you you know this song by
Brett dennan Ain't No Reason? Oh that's a good one.
You may have to play it on the show. Yeah,
it's it's about four years ago and he hasn't, you know,
become a commercial. You know, I was hoping he was
going to become bigger because that song's power did sign
I wanted to, But I think he may have stayed independent.

(29:37):
I'm not sure what became with you Brett denn and
d E N and the N and the song is
Ain't No Reason strong ship. But so yeah, somebody's going
to come along, and you know what, whoever it does
and does it right is going to own it because
nobody else is doing it. So there's that giant hole.
David Foster likes to talk about that hole in the marketplace.
Sometimes I don't think this is what he meant. But
in this in this case, there is a void, and

(29:58):
somebody's going to come along and fill that void. And
you know, some of the rappers are talking some straight stuff, right,
but yeah, I mean.

Speaker 6 (30:06):
Chance logic, yeah, logic definitely, so.

Speaker 3 (30:09):
You know, but it doesn't it's not anywhere near what
it could be and should be. Where's the Colin Kaepernick
of music? Come on, let's go.

Speaker 2 (30:18):
Celebrity has ruined the industry. And that's the thing. Even
if we find that person.

Speaker 1 (30:26):
They're gonna go off for the reality show and.

Speaker 2 (30:28):
They'll be lifted to celebrity heights so big that they
can't you know, they they would have to. Unfortunately, I
mean Kurt Kobaine's solution to that. You know what his
solution to avoiding becoming a cliche was, And that's, you know,
sadly what the reality is.

Speaker 1 (30:45):
It's like, we find something and then we in trying
to avoid a cliche, he became one.

Speaker 3 (30:50):
So I'll tell you this. I think somebody's out there
probably listening to this show who's got that gene that
won't let them be anything other than what they're meant
to be, which is exactly what we're hoping for. You know,
there's one motherfucker out there who's going to come out
and be like because they need to, because they have to,
and and they don't care about you know, sponsorships, and
they don't care about you know, I mean, it exists.

(31:12):
And if, like I said, the time is so ripe now,
oh my god.

Speaker 5 (31:16):
Then how do you keep that kind of person motivated
to stay in the business Because you get these acts
that are they get hyped up to become the next
h next big thing and then they turn to Ja
Electronica and disappeared in front of an xbox for six years.

Speaker 3 (31:29):
I think I think that that person does exist, And
like I said, it's it's almost like they're gonna have
to plug Maclamore made some really important records, right, I feel.

Speaker 7 (31:38):
Like every time he does it kind of almost yes.
But yeah, that White Privilege, that song was amazing, but
I feel like nobody ever.

Speaker 3 (31:45):
Heard Yeah so was the one the one about the
same Love. What a beautiful, beautiful record, I mean amazing.
And some of the statements he made her so powerful,
you know, I wish there was more of that, you know,
And but I but I'm an optimist and I believe
there will be because it has to be a reaction,
always has to be in a yang.

Speaker 2 (32:06):
Speaking of which, Okay, I gotta say I was joking
by saying, speaking of which, let's talk about.

Speaker 1 (32:11):
Kid Rock man.

Speaker 2 (32:13):
No, I gotta say, even though his politics anger the
ship out of me.

Speaker 3 (32:18):
Speaking of Kid Rock, I loved Hamilton, No, but I was.

Speaker 2 (32:25):
I will say that of any story of an artist
getting signed to a label, uh, his story is the greatest,
funniest story of all time, almost to the point where
I think I would almost invite him on the show
to do a one on one without you guys just.

Speaker 1 (32:48):
Scared scared? Oh no you should be.

Speaker 3 (32:51):
No, I mean we were.

Speaker 1 (32:54):
We were thrilling. I mean, he ain't gonna, we ain't gonna.

Speaker 2 (32:56):
God damn Kate walk right, But but do I keep
it respectful?

Speaker 1 (33:00):
Yeah? But a Republican he wasn't running. He was he was.
He was trying to sell us out.

Speaker 6 (33:05):
He's not, okay because I appreciate it. Rock he said
some things that have been listened lately that I don't
know him no anymore?

Speaker 2 (33:18):
No, no, yeah, no more?

Speaker 3 (33:27):
How about those next seven and man things? You know
looking up.

Speaker 1 (33:32):
Who won last?

Speaker 2 (33:33):
So okay, I'm trying to move you down the timeline.
Why did you leave Atlantic Records? Did you have when?

Speaker 1 (33:41):
When?

Speaker 3 (33:42):
Uh?

Speaker 2 (33:43):
I'm at Urican? First of all, just Okay, you already
explained that he was a guy like were you. Was
he approachable at all? Or was like when he was
in the building, everyone like straightened up and cleaned off
their desk and pulled out the yo yo.

Speaker 3 (33:59):
And that's how I thought it, I was supposed to
be until I met him, and then I realized that
he was cooler than any of us, you know. And
he could he was known him. He could drink any
of the rock stars under the table. He could party
with the best of him.

Speaker 1 (34:10):
What was his best story to you?

Speaker 3 (34:13):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (34:13):
His best story so many.

Speaker 3 (34:16):
So he told me a story about when he was
at mixed wedding to Bianca, which one he was the best,
He was the best man. And it was in the
south of France, beautiful day, and he tells me they're
having a reception outdoors and everybody's there, all the local
officials are there, the mayor, chief of police, everybody else.

(34:37):
And he says, Keith's walking around with a bag of blow.

Speaker 2 (34:42):
Of course he's this chessut.

Speaker 3 (34:45):
Using one hand to shovel it into his face, right,
and I hang, you know, and the and he literally
bumps into the chief of police of whatever it is
niece or whatever town they're in. I remember it. And
so the chief of police says to I'm in French
because I'm spoke French. He spoke a lot of languages,
I think, and he says to him something I'm going
to mess up to French. But he says kiss pudre, right,

(35:08):
which I think means what is this powder? Right? And
am it goes, oh, you know what, of course in French.
But he says, uh, this is they're not only musicians also,
they're clowns. And he starts pulling this stuff out and
popping it on his face.

Speaker 8 (35:24):
Right, Yeah, only if I could do that, right.

Speaker 3 (35:35):
But he had stories of Jim Moore, I mean all
the you know, like everybody. I mean, it's it's so
great being around him, you know. I do want to
get back to how I left Atlantic, by the way,
because that's a great story.

Speaker 1 (35:49):
All right, How did you leave?

Speaker 3 (35:51):
I got fired over a poem that I wrote.

Speaker 6 (35:53):
Yeah, wow, it's the word get you have a time.

Speaker 3 (35:58):
The story goes expecting this. So I was working there.
I had been named almost twenty five years to the
day that I walked in there on July thirty first,
nineteen seventy nine. It was my first day work in
the Atlantic, and you know, eighteen years old. About twenty
five years later, I get named chairman and CEO of
the company. I sold my company, Lava, to them, and
they offered me the job, and I was It's funny
because my first reaction when they said, you know, you

(36:18):
can actually run the place, I was like, you mean
I get to decide whether it's a snow day, Like
are you kidding me? Because I still felt like that
eighteen year old kid. You know, this is under Doug
Marsh Now, yeah, he's under dunk ye. No, no, no,
this was under Leor. Now Leor was now running it
and Edgar. Yeah, Edgar had bought the company and Leor
was running it right or years Yeah, So there you go.

(36:39):
So strangely enough, I didn't get along with lee Or.

Speaker 2 (36:42):
I know, thinks what all the guests have been on
the show have their best lee Or imitations. Ever, so
even when you talk, Leor say it in the lee
Or accent, because we'll have a.

Speaker 1 (36:52):
Compilation of everyone imitating le Or on the show.

Speaker 3 (36:55):
So this is Leor on the golf course. You're ready,
Oh my god, did you see how I hit that?
You cannot get the gop ball any better than that
shot was incredible. That shot was amazing.

Speaker 2 (37:05):
Nos, Like I'm talking about or Trump. We don't want
you to do the President of the United States or
New York going.

Speaker 3 (37:18):
Let me see, let me do it different. Okay. But
by the way, I had the misfortune of playing nine
holes with Trump about six or seven years ago. It's
a horrible experience. But anyway, Okay, we come back. We're
gonna come back. Okay.

Speaker 1 (37:29):
So wait, can I ask you? In order to make
it to.

Speaker 2 (37:35):
That big money level, am I going to have to
learn how to play golf?

Speaker 4 (37:41):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (37:41):
I think you're doing okay. I mean, I don't know
who your accounting is, but if you're not, you should
probably get a new one.

Speaker 2 (37:48):
Powers talking about I'm talking about adding extra zeros to
my bank account because that's the one common denominator that
all my peers now that are jumping to that film,
that are making successful film and Louise Cliff jumped to
the other side of the mountain. They're all suddenly like playing.

Speaker 3 (38:07):
And I'm not Puff doesn't play golf, does he?

Speaker 6 (38:10):
He does music video?

Speaker 3 (38:12):
So you never mentioned it to me?

Speaker 2 (38:16):
Do you like golf? Wer do you know that's the
language of the well.

Speaker 3 (38:20):
No, no, I like golf. It's a really fun sport.
And you know, I actually broke kid Rock as a
result of a golf game. So it's been it's it's
very good for business. You know, it's because think about it,
you're out there for four hours, you're walking around, you're socializing.
You know, it's it's beautiful. You're walking around on grass
and there's like trees and water and birds and ship
it's nice. And that's something. When you hit a golf

(38:43):
ball correctly, which doesn't happen that often for even the
best pros, they'll say, like you know, they don't actually like.
But when you actually pure the golf ball, you can
feel the ball compressed because you know that's physics, right,
The ball compresses and then explodes out. The energy explodes
out the other side, and you can actually feel the
ball compress against the club through your hands and into
your soul. I mean, it is like being connected to

(39:05):
the center of the fucking universe. And and then you
get unlike other sports, nobody hits you, nobody tackles. You
don't have to run, you don't have to catch anything.
You just stand there and admire your work as the
sails out over the horizon and lands gently on the green.
I mean it's a feeling, that is, it's our gasmic.

Speaker 6 (39:23):
I'm telling you do need a couple of coins though.

Speaker 7 (39:25):
That is the sport that you need coins for, because
you got to get into the golf course.

Speaker 6 (39:29):
But you're fine, okay, Well you can play public and
warm up.

Speaker 3 (39:32):
I used to play public golf courses all the time
before free or just well yeah, I mean you gotta
pay something.

Speaker 7 (39:39):
I like playing golf. I'm not gonna say I'm good
at it, but I do like playing.

Speaker 6 (39:46):
Black defying me. I like to play golf. I've had
a couple of Well, I haven't a man.

Speaker 1 (39:54):
You gotta wait for a man.

Speaker 6 (39:55):
I don't wait. But I'm just saying it's nice to
deal with a partner.

Speaker 3 (39:57):
Okay, so let's go play some golf. I will post
it on our Instagram. We're gonna go do it. I'll
take you on playing the snow because it's getting Coldut
I don't care.

Speaker 2 (40:08):
He judged potential business partners or people that you're gonna
work with based on their golf game.

Speaker 3 (40:15):
No, I mean, I don't care how somebody plays as
long as they don't play slow. That's if you're starting out,
just don't play slow.

Speaker 1 (40:20):
You know.

Speaker 3 (40:20):
I mean, nobody cares if you're good or bad or whatever.
Everybody's pretty wpped up in their own ship. But you know,
you just like keep it moving, and you know, it's
just it's a fun it's a fun game. It's extremely
frustrating game too, by the way. It's it's the craziest
thing because some days you can or you go from.

Speaker 1 (40:34):
Hole to hole.

Speaker 3 (40:34):
You could play like Tiger Woods. One hole in the
next hole, you're playing like super Sales, you know. So, yeah,
it's really weird. What a reference. I know, I gotta
tell you the poem story before. Yes, so I wasn't
getting along with Lee or right, I don't know. I
found it ironic that his name was liar, you know
what I mean. And one irony was killing me day

(40:57):
to day. So we didn't get a lot, and uh,
it was a very frustrating experience, you know. It was
it was a fun time and I signed Hailey Williams
back that it was called Paramore right and it was
you know, I was only chairman of Atlantic for about
a year, but it was good. It was you know.
I loved the was it? What was it that was?
I'm gonna say two thousand and.

Speaker 1 (41:17):
Three or four so, ok okay before you guys.

Speaker 3 (41:21):
No no, no, no, no, no, no, two thousand and
five probably whatever right around there.

Speaker 2 (41:25):
That was when we signed. I was in my group,
little brother. We signed like oh four five.

Speaker 3 (41:29):
I think I didn't fuck that up for you anyway.

Speaker 1 (41:32):
It was or it was kind of already fun up
before we got to use it.

Speaker 3 (41:35):
Got it, okay, dodge that bullet, okay, so.

Speaker 1 (41:40):
Wouldn't be funny. This was like not even a real podcast.
There was revenge for that anyway. Go ahead, a big
Sun present you for the revenge forgetting Yeah.

Speaker 3 (41:52):
My god, everyone's always out to get the Jews.

Speaker 6 (41:54):
Anyway, so it's going to replace us, That's what I hear.

Speaker 3 (41:58):
I had to go there.

Speaker 1 (41:59):
So yeah, quiet, you've ever been to you? So I'm
not feeling well.

Speaker 6 (42:10):
So I'm just laying back and Jason's got just doing
it for me.

Speaker 3 (42:14):
Yeah, solidarity, So.

Speaker 6 (42:17):
Ask you an old question. We just go back real quick.

Speaker 7 (42:19):
Not an old question, a question from your coming up
because I thought I read something the poems the poem
the poem, sorry.

Speaker 3 (42:28):
But don't forget you.

Speaker 6 (42:29):
I won't forget it.

Speaker 1 (42:30):
Write it down.

Speaker 3 (42:33):
So anyway, So here it is about a year and
a quarter into my you know, tenure as chairman and CEO.
It is my favorite record company in the world, Atlantic Records.
And Edgar was going to be honored by the u
j A at a music industry lunch and that's a
Humanitarian of the Year award or whatever I think it was.
And so is the United Jewish Appeal, major Jewish charity. Wonderful,

(42:57):
wonderful charity. Anyway, So there was a kickoff breakfast and
the chairman of all the different companies came and so
I pledged a bunch of money to the uj and
Edgar's honor, which was appropriate thing to do, and also
I think it's a great charity. So a couple of
weeks go by and I get a call from I
don't know, somebody from the UJA, Steve Stu whatever his

(43:17):
name was, right, and I'm like, hey, what's up? And
he goes, you know, you gave us a bunch of money.
You know, you get a full page ad in the booklet,
you know, but it's it's due tomorrow. You know, what
do you wanted to say? So off the top of
my head. Now, bear in mind, our stock had just
gone public and wasn't doing so well. You probably remember
that one of music group Stock, the IPO had just happened.

(43:39):
So off the top of my head, I said, how
about this. Roses are reddish, violets are bluish. Our stocks
in the toilet. But at least we're both Jewish. So
I was Steve, he goes, are you sure about that?
I was like, oh, you said, I have twenty four hours.
Let me let me run it by few people, right,

(44:00):
So I read it by a few people. Everybody's reaction
was the same as yours. And I even called up
Edgar's brother in law, who was working at the company
at that time, and I said to him, as it
was Alex, I said, Alex, what do you think?

Speaker 1 (44:12):
Like?

Speaker 3 (44:12):
I mean, you know, I tried to rewrite it, but
you can't. It's perfect, right, You couldn't change one word
in that. It's poetic perfection. So I call Alex like
he says, listen, Edgar has a wonderful sense of humor.
I know he's going to love this. In fact, I'm
so sure that if he doesn't, I'll take the heat.
I was like, okay, So I had the art department
mock up the ad with some roses on the page

(44:32):
and stuff, you know. And what I didn't anticipate was
that people at the lunch. You know, it's not the
most exciting lunch in the world, right, I mean, you
got some speeches there, they're a little bit ponderous. And
so what you do in these in these lunches, you
go through the booklet, right, and every ads the same Edgar, congratulations,
you're wonderful. What are You're a fantastic honor umanitarian? This
that yours schmoozer, You're fantastic. And then you come to

(44:55):
my ad and people were like spitting out their food.
You try to to try and not to laugh because
everything's quiet because the guy's up there making a speech
about a serious issue, right about their helping people, and
you know that wherever they are, the things they're doing,
and you know, and you can't be just breaking out
and then make matters worse. The Daily News ran my

(45:17):
poem under the headline Edgar can't even get respect from
his own CEO. Yeah, so I guess that didn't Unfortunately,
I didn't have a poetry clause in my contract, so
I was, I was paid. You know, I got fired
and I got paid out and then I went to
run Virgin, and you know that was a fun time too,
so you know, and actually when I took over Virgin,

(45:40):
I'll show you this I took over. You can't see
it on the radio, but I'm gonna show it to
you anyway. When I took over Virgin, which was shortly thereafter,
the hottest movie in the country was the fourty year
old Virgin. Everybody remembers that iconic poster with his face
on it, right, So I decided, rather than run a
normal announcement Jason Flaming, chairman and CEO Virgin Records, I
decided to take a picture as him. Right, So I
bought a wig and uh, and I bought a shirt

(46:03):
and this is what it. I can pull this out
of my walle to show it to you. I ran
this ad full page in Billboard and hits.

Speaker 9 (46:09):
He pulled, except I mean, come on, can we use
that photo advertised.

Speaker 3 (46:21):
To use it for whatever you want? That was my thing. Yeah,
I think I bet the card in the process. I
can get you a clean one, though, But yeah, so
it was. It was really a fun time. Virgin was great.
You know, we turned that place around. That was you know,
red jumpsuit apparatus was the first thing I signed, actually
the day after I got there. And then Katy Perry
and you know, the thirty second of Mars was amazing.

(46:42):
You know. Jared Leto is a force of nature. That guy.
He's one of those rare people that everything he does,
like Jamie Fox, right, everything he does is perfect. It's
like annoying almost.

Speaker 6 (46:51):
Right, well, not every single but yeah, yeah, I got.

Speaker 3 (46:55):
That same watching Hamilton. You know what the worst thing
about going to see Hamilton is, I'll tell you right now.
You sit there and you just feel I feel so inadequate,
you know, I mean not only because of the the
unreal accomplishment of Lynn Manuel Moritta writing and producing and
everything and doing everything around that show, but also Hamilton himself.

(47:17):
You're saying the way I haven't done ship in my life.
Oh my god. People were like, hey, you don't pretty good.
I'm like, nah, I haven't done anything. It sucks.

Speaker 2 (47:23):
So, yeah, what a thing is listening to j Z
likes about how well?

Speaker 3 (47:30):
Yeahology, you know, but and yeah, and Hamilton, I mean,
good for you, by the way, I mean it really is.
And and by the way, there's the there's a rebelliousness ironically,
right that we had to go back to the founding
fathers to get some rebelliousness back in our culture. And
it is. But it's it's so nice to see how
that thing has become, you know what it is, because

(47:53):
it's so important and it's so profoundly it's just I mean,
it's perfect. It's one of the only when I went
to see that and people are like, well, is the
first time, and people are like, is it as good
as the hype? I'm like, you know, it's probably the
best thing since either Prints at the bottom line or
Zeppelin at the garden?

Speaker 2 (48:11):
Did you see Hamilton pre hype or like two thousand
dollars a ticket hype?

Speaker 3 (48:18):
So here's what happened is amazing. I went my son
is in the business, Mike Flom, and he's really excited.
I'm on your show, by the way. But anyway, because
he's a student of and he was working when he
was sixteen years old, he started working with Roys to
five nine, and so we were down in the studio
with Royce in Atlanta, and I was I started talking

(48:39):
to him about Hamilton and he goes, this is when
Hamilton had first come out, and he was like, oh,
that guy called me the other day, Lynn Manuel Miranda guy.
I was like, what'd you say? He goes, I didn't
know who he was. I didn't take his call. I
was like, holy shit, dude, Like are you like, let's
get on the phone and get us in, you know,
like and so he called and Lynn got us tickets
and I went with with with his manager as well

(49:02):
as my son Mike, to like flying to Ce Hamilton.
So it was pretty early on and then Lynn took
us back stage afterwards because you know Lynn, well, you
know better than anybody who loves he loves the great one.
Then Royce's is one of the real greats and hip
hop in my opinions. So so we got to see
it as his guests, and it was just a magical,
magical experience, you know.

Speaker 2 (49:25):
So I need to know with you being in the
position that you're in as far as being in the
business by that point, like thirty plus years, running three
labels and pretty much signing like you know, people's highlights, Yeah,

(49:48):
how the hell did you sort of take a detour
into social justice? Because I because I feel like if
you if you're going to do something, you got to
do it well and really put your heart into it,
not just like jack of all trades, master of none.

Speaker 3 (50:06):
So.

Speaker 2 (50:07):
But the thing is is that your you know, your
your history shows that you're you know, you're deeper than
one footage plant planet, deeply into the music business and
and well but you know, your work with social justice
shouldn't be scoffed at.

Speaker 1 (50:22):
Either because.

Speaker 2 (50:25):
Like why I'm not saying why because like people behind
in the boardroom shouldn't care about the you know, the
have nots, but what like what happened? Like what what
compels you to even care?

Speaker 7 (50:39):
Can you just add a little layer of who your
parents were to even have your up that situation because
the fact that you so didn't have to go this way,
it's kind of ill to me because I know we
haven't discussed where you came from and which I heard
your father did some amazing things in a business world,
so it's really like you really did not have to
do this, right.

Speaker 3 (50:57):
Yeah, My dad was My dad was my hero. You know.
He he was the son of immigrants, grew up as
poor as you could be. He was so poor that
back then in Brooklyn when he was growing up, they'd
give your first months free if you moved, and they
would move every month. That's how poor he was. And he,
you know, he went to City College at night. And
it's a great story. Actually, when he got out of
the army, he wrote a letter to Harvard Law School

(51:18):
and he said, I don't have any money, and I
don't have a college degree, but I'm the best thing
since sliced bread, and I'm a soldier and if you
let me in, you won't regret it. And they gave
him a full scholarship to Harvard Law School, and he
became that's all. That's not anymore.

Speaker 1 (51:34):
And I also thought you were going to do some
roses a red couple.

Speaker 3 (51:39):
That was all me. But he no, he you know,
that was when we actually used to treat our gis
as with respect, rights, as as they should be you
know treated. But but don't get me started on that.
But yeah, so he became one of the greatest lawyers
of the twentieth century. And you know, there's a chapter
in Outliers about him, the three less as a Joe Flom.

(52:01):
But moreover, he told me and my brother, do whatever
you want to do. Try to be the best at it,
but just make the world a better place. He says,
if you do that, that's that's success. That's what I
call success. And I wanted to be a success in
his eyes. So so yeah, so he you know, he
was very driven to make the world a better place himself.

(52:21):
He was very strong on civil rights and.

Speaker 7 (52:25):
On quality acquisition to like he created a concept or
something like that.

Speaker 3 (52:30):
Yeah, he he, well, he basically pioneered hostile takeovers and
proxy contests and all that stuff. And it was at
a time when you know, Jewish lawyers couldn't get jobs
at Wall Street firms. So he went to a firm
that had four he was the fifth lawyer, and they
had no clients, you know, but they were you know,
they're trying to figure it out. And then he found
this niche and and by the time the Wall Street

(52:50):
firm started getting into it was too late. He was dominant,
you know. So and then he built his law firm
up into one of the most powerful in the world.
And you know, but he did it. He always did
it the right way. He never cut corners. He you know,
he treated people with respect, and you know, I remember
him defending you know, cases, and he did. They did

(53:11):
a lot. They still do a ton of pro bowl work,
including for the Innocence Project. By the way, Scadden is
the firm. It was Scatten Off, Slate, mar and flom
And because he was the young guy when they started.
But yeah, so he I remember him when he defended
the They were trying to get rid of evolution, the
teaching of evolution in in one of those states, Kansas
or something, and he sent his Scatten like team of

(53:32):
lawyers out there and he was so excited when he
then he came back and they won. You know, that
was his ship, you know. So anyway, so yeah, so
I grew up. I grew up with him and my mom.
You know, my mom graduated Cornell when she was eighteen.
When she used to remind me all the time, especially
when I was dropping out of college. But anyway, so yeah,
that was my mother. Was she was. She was doing embarrassing.

(53:54):
She was actually a decorated when she met my dad.
That's how she met my dad. When he first got
any money was because he was in an accident. He
got hit by a taxi and was in the hospital
for a long time and got some money, so he
hired a decorator, and that's how he met my mom.
So yeah, you know, wherever your mind goes there, I
guess I can go. But anyway, anyway, So yeah, that's
how I grew up. And then But what happened was

(54:16):
that in ninety two or three I read a story
in the newspaper about a kid who was serving fifteen
years to life for a non violent first defense cocaine
possession charge in New York State, and he was in
maximum security prison. And the reason it was in the
newspaper was because his mother had been trying to get
clemency from Governor Cuomo. This was the first Governor Cuomo,
Mario Cuomo, and she had had She was just a

(54:39):
homemaker from upstate New York, from Rome, New York, and
she had gotten letters from the judge. The warden, Geraldine
Ferraro had written a letter on her behalf right. So
that's why it was in the newspaper because Cuomo turned
down Ferraro, who was asking for clemency for this kid
who had been in for eight and something years already
for non Like I said, let's just reflect non violent defense, right,

(55:01):
cocaine possession?

Speaker 2 (55:03):
Can you for our listeners that don't know. Could you
explain the history of the Rockefeller law so that they
know why New York's laws have been tougher the early nineties.

Speaker 3 (55:13):
It's odd, you know when you think about it, but
New York has some of the worst laws in the country.
I mean, you would think that the Rockefeller laws would
be more, you know, something that you would see in
Mississippi or Alabama or something like that. But the fact
is the Rockefeller drug laws came up under Governor Nelson
Rockefeller at the time when everybody was getting tough on
drugs and war on drugs and all this stuff. And
you know, they made it extremely.

Speaker 6 (55:35):
They put it in the community.

Speaker 3 (55:36):
Yeah, I mean, yeah, there's that too. But yeah, So
they made these crazy mandatory sentencing laws, and basically they
took all the power away from the judges and gave
it to the prosecutors. So the only way out of
a mandatory sentence is to rat on somebody else. And
because and so the prosecutors literally have all the powers.
So they could sit there and say, you, look, what

(55:57):
do you want to do? Or you can plead guilty, right,
but even if it's something you didn't do otherwise you're
looking at this mandatory sentence of you know, could be
decades in prison, and you know, you never want to
find yourself in that position. But and judges in so
many of these cases, judges as they're sentencing somebody will say,
I wish I didn't have to do this, you know.
And I had one guy that I was talking to

(56:18):
who had been sentenced to I don't know, twenty or
more years in prison than he was out now, and
he said to me, you know, that was the thing
to kill me was when the judge said I wish
I could give you probation. And I'm sitting there going, wait,
I can accept the sentence, but not when I mean, like,
how's that working? You know what I mean, like, yeah,
it's just it's really sickening. So anyway, in this particular case,

(56:40):
I just read this story and I was I was flabbergasted,
you know, like I was like, I didn't know about
these mandatory sentencing laws, as most people don't until they
get caught up in it. So I contacted a music
business lawyer, a defense lawyer I knew. The only defense
lay I knew was a guy Naed Bob Coleena. He
represented Stone Double Pilots and skid. Oh, and they used

(57:01):
to get in trouble a lot, as you remember. Yeah,
So I called Bob. I was like, Bob, can you
do anybody this? He says, nothing you can do about it.
It's Rockefeller drug laws is just the way it is.
I was like, well, can you talk to this woman
on the phone, because I'd called missus Lennon. That was
her name, was in the newspaper, Shirley Lennon. I just
called her and I said, look, you probably think I'm
some freak from New York, but I got to do something.

(57:23):
I don't have a lot of money because I didn't
back then, but I'll send you what I can, maybe
get a new appeal or something. And she said on Jason,
He goes, we've exhausted. We've spent all of our savings
on lawyers, and we've exhausted all of our appeals and
this was our last hope. And she says, you know,
crazy thing is there was a murderer who went to
the prison same prison as my son, after my son,
and he's out and my son's not eligible parole for

(57:44):
another seven years.

Speaker 2 (57:45):
And I was like, and this just for cocaine powdered possessions.

Speaker 3 (57:49):
Yeah, cocaine powder possession. It was four point two ounces, right,
so it wasn't a little bit. But the fact is
even still you know the cliff, there's a cliff right
over four ounces and York State possession is an A
one felony. So it's like, you know, it's like murder
one two to four ounces is an A two. But
he had four point two ounces.

Speaker 2 (58:09):
Now, was there a difference if it's powder cocaine or
if it's crack. I mean, back in ninety one, we're.

Speaker 3 (58:16):
Well, we're talking. I don't know exactly what the difference
was back then. That was when crack was first coming up, right,
But in the federal system there's a huge difference. And
I actually worked on the legislation that rolled back the
mandatory sentencing of laws with crack because crack used to
be treated one hundred times more severely than coke. And
there's a very simple reason why, and I don't have
to tell you what it is, because it's lost smart

(58:37):
people in the road. So yeah, So I worked with
Senator Durbin and others on that bill, which was the
first mandatory sentencing rollback in America in forty years, and
the best deal we could make with the Republicans was
to change it from one hundred and one to eighteen
to one. And the worst part of it is that
it wasn't done retroactively, which always blows my mind. Like,
if we're acknowledging that a law is wrong, how is

(58:59):
it wrong now? But it wasn't wrong before? It doesn't
make any sense. And I worked very actively on the
clemencies that President Obama granted to so many of those
people that are serving what are illegal sentences.

Speaker 2 (59:11):
So you're saying that once it was turned around, they
decided to not even go back to reverse all those
wrongful convictions.

Speaker 3 (59:19):
No, it was, like I said, it wasn't retroactively. So
if you were, if you were so misfortunate as to
be busted before the law was changed, you're gonna you're
still sitting there in prison to eat that. And I was,
you know, I was really trying hard to get the
Obama administration to grant clemency to all of those people
unless they had committed some terrible crime while they're in prison,
because again, it doesn't make any sense. How can you

(59:41):
shade it? How can you look that guy in the
eye and go dude, you should have been busted a
few weeks later. You know, you'd be out, you'd be
home with your family, you'd have four years instead of
twenty five whatever it would be. It's you know, it's
literally was reduced by eighty something percent the sentences, but
those people are still in something. Now. President Obama did
grant clemens to a lot of them, and you know,

(01:00:02):
I worked with the NACDL and other organizations on those clemencies,
and you know, he granted over seventeen hundred clemencies. Not
all of them were crack sentences, but a lot of
them were. But there's still thousands of other people who
were still stuck in there, and obviously they're going to
be for the foreseeable future if they're in the federal system.
But back to the original story. So, so Bob as

(01:00:24):
a favorite of me, calls missus Lennon and he says
to me, look, I don't have any hope for this,
but I'm gonna read the transcripts as a favor to
you because I was a good client. I guess right,
and he takes the case pro bono, and five months
later we ended up in a court house, a courtroom
in Malone, New York by the Canadian border, and I
was sitting there. They brought Stephen in in shackles. I

(01:00:47):
was like, who is he? Charles Manson? This isiculous. Legs
were chained together, his hands were changed to his waist,
and I sat there holding Missus Lennon's hand, and the judge,
who I thought was never going to give us a
break because he looked like a conservative guy, he said something,
I haven't heard anything in this courtroom today understatute this

(01:01:07):
section app But he was all this legal mumba joh.
I don't know what he's talking about. And then he
goes but under the power vested in me that is
stated in New York, the motion is granted. Whoa thing down?
And I was like, what the fuck? And then Bob
comes over. I was like, Bob, what happened? Because we won?
I was like, get the fuck out of me. Way
so he so. So Bob found this angle right, which

(01:01:30):
is that he and I don't even know how this worked.
But there were two kids in the car when Steven
got arrested. He was driving and his friend was in
the pastor's seat. They got pulled. One of them got
out to take a leak apparently, and the cops saw
him and came over and searched the car, found the
found the coke under the seat. Whose is it? Most

(01:01:51):
kids say, it's not mine. Well, everybody should know out there,
if you're in a car and the drugs are in
the car, it's yours, right if everybody everybody in the
it could be twenty of you in the car and
be a clown car. Okay, it belongs to everybody, and
all of it belongs to.

Speaker 1 (01:02:05):
This possession, not ownership. That's that's what. So how much
coke was it though?

Speaker 3 (01:02:11):
Like four point two ounces, so just over the cliff right,
just over the limit. It's really the terrible, terrible coincidence there. So,
so both kids said it wasn't mine. Both kids pleaded
it and sin Steven's lawyer told him, will I will
win this case where I'll hang up my shingle? Right,
he should have pleaded guilty because he was guilty, but
the other kid was not guilty. The other kid was

(01:02:32):
a passenger, and both of them ended up getting fifteen
years to life. Now after he went to prison. Yeah,
so after he went to prison, Stephen wrote letters saying listen,
this was me it wasn't him, but their response was
too late. You know, you should have said so before.
So they eventually allowed the other kid, whose name I

(01:02:54):
don't remember, to plead down to an A two fel
and I think he was released after eight years for
something he didn't do, by the way, God dude. And
then my guy Bob went in and said, you can't
treat the same crime. It's the same crime. You can't
treat the two guys differently for the same crime. They
both picted the same crime. Basically, you know, I'm garbing
it was twenty five years ago, but that was the

(01:03:14):
basic argument, and it worked, you know, and Stephen got out, you.

Speaker 2 (01:03:19):
Can't send us one guy to eight years and another
guy to twenty for the same thing.

Speaker 3 (01:03:23):
Yeah, fifteen the life but yeah, so you know. So anyway,
it was a cathartic experience, as you can imagine. And
I said, holy shit, that was the best feeling I know.
I mean, losing my virginity was good, but even this
was even better, you know what I mean, By the way,
I lost our virginity at a yes cozer the matters
of course, seventy six bases, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes,

(01:03:47):
that would have been funk here audience.

Speaker 1 (01:03:50):
Yeah, yes, I was like, yo, do it.

Speaker 3 (01:03:53):
Was actually in the skybox in the bathroom. Yeah, it
was a romathic but anyway, but the that's how I
knew I was ended up working at Atlantic because yes, it
was a land So anyway, So what I did then
was I, I, you know, I experience, you know, hit
me so hard that I did some research. I found
out about Families Against Mandatory Minimums, which you talked about before,
a fam which had just started. I called them up.

(01:04:15):
I joined their board. That led me to the Drug
Policy Alliance, the Legal Action Center, and then I saw
some on TV about the Innocence Project and that's when
I really like went into overdrive because that hit me.
This was again, almost twenty five years ago. The Insty
Project had just started and one of their cases was
on TV and I was like, holy shit, that's even worse, right,
this is a motherfucker who was innocent and got sentenced

(01:04:36):
to death or life in prison or whatever it was.
And I called them up. And you know, at the time,
there's only only the two founders working there and maybe
maybe a I don't know, maybe they had a receptionist
or something. And so you could just call and get
them on the phone. I went in and met with
them and I set them all in and I was
and I became the founding board member. And it's really

(01:04:56):
become my life's work. I mean, I you know, I
still love music and I love my job, but I
love this more.

Speaker 1 (01:05:05):
More than Twisted sistern. This is more important than twist.

Speaker 3 (01:05:09):
Woke up.

Speaker 2 (01:05:16):
When we were in the elevator before I was to table,
you were talking that you were in Virginia.

Speaker 1 (01:05:21):
You were doing some work in Virginia.

Speaker 2 (01:05:22):
You are a prison in Virginia before you came here yesterday?

Speaker 1 (01:05:26):
Yesterday? Yeah, what was that about?

Speaker 8 (01:05:28):
So?

Speaker 3 (01:05:30):
I do you know I have a podcast now called
Wrongful Conviction. Yes you do, And on it I interview
I interview people who have been wrongfully convicted of crimes
they didn't commit.

Speaker 2 (01:05:42):
It's a very heartbreaking podcast. I mean redemption at the end,
but it's hard to hear people lose those decades.

Speaker 3 (01:05:49):
Man, Just one story is crazier than the other. And
sometimes I go inside prison and interview people who I
believe to be innocent who need to get out, but
also on occasion I will. And now my inbox is
going to be flooded. But you know, I only have
twenty four hours in a day like anybody else. But
sometimes if I think I can make a difference, I'll

(01:06:11):
take on an individual case that's not an INNOCENTCE project case,
or I'll just join a team that's already working to
try to get somebody exonerated and try to connect the dots,
either with the legal team or with you know, clemency,
which I've been successful at enough times. You know, I
was saying, I've seen too many miracles to stop believing
in miracles, and it is a miracle when it works.

(01:06:33):
But I've got you know, I've been successful more than
a few times on taking on the case that I
see an injustice and actually getting that person freed.

Speaker 1 (01:06:46):
Wow.

Speaker 7 (01:06:46):
Can I ask you do you guys work with prisoners
inside of the prison like as it's personal to me
because I have a friend who's been inside the New
Jersey prison system for a while now, highly educated activists
in a way. And it's funny because does he actually
sent me a whole essay about what's going on with
the water system that actually had a whole bunch of
water coming to the prison when the water was dirty

(01:07:09):
and they never used it. It was bags and bags and
bags and bags of water. So he wrote this essay
about how they actually had a balloon party and the guards,
you know, kind of just poured it out at a
time when we're going through what we're going through with
Puerto Rico, you know, and so you know, he kind
of felt some type of way about that and wrote
the essay. But I'm curious, is there an opportunity for
prisoners in that way organizational wise to speak and it's

(01:07:31):
hard for them to speak out, So I don't know
if you have any direction with that it turns to
speak out about the issues that are going to the
wrongful inside of the prison as well.

Speaker 3 (01:07:39):
Yeah, I mean that's a whole other area that I'm
not an expert on. There are definitely organizations that are
devoted to that. I know the Correctional Association in New
York is one of.

Speaker 7 (01:07:47):
Them, and I know the New Jersey prison system is
a mother Anyway, the reputation weren't all really.

Speaker 6 (01:07:53):
Really is there.

Speaker 7 (01:07:55):
It's funny because I was like, in my mind, is
there a top three like states where it's.

Speaker 1 (01:07:59):
Like were you to go?

Speaker 6 (01:08:01):
You don't want to go to jail, You just don't
want to be there.

Speaker 3 (01:08:04):
Well, I mean the laced, I mean it's it's you know, look,
we are in a situation now where we have four
zero point four percent of the world's population, right, almost
four and a half percent of the world's population. We
have twenty five percent of the world's prison population. So
we lock people up at more than five times the

(01:08:24):
rate of the rest of the civilized world. Now, chew
on this one. We lock up black men in America
per capita at a rate that is six times higher
than South Africa at the height of apartheid. Okay, just
fucking chew on that for a second. And then there's women, right,
which is the fastest growing part of the prison population.
We have thirty three percent of the world's female prison population.

(01:08:46):
So what do you can what kind of conclusions can
you draw?

Speaker 6 (01:08:50):
Oh my god, it's look what is it done?

Speaker 3 (01:08:55):
Yeah, or in a lot of cases, a single parent,
you know, whatever it is, it's it's still devastating to
the communities, and it doesn't make any sense. It doesn't work,
it doesn't promote public safety, it doesn't help anything or
anybody except the private prison industry, which is only six
percent of the prisons but still that's too much. It
should be no private prisons, and you know, prisons should

(01:09:15):
be focused on rehabilitation. I mean, first of all, we
had three hundred thousand people in prison the thirty years ago,
you know what I mean. Like now we're at two
point two million right including a half a million who
right now while we're sitting here eating donuts and playing
ping pong and talking about fucking whatever. So there's a

(01:09:36):
half a million people in jail in America right now
just because they can't post bail. And that's another thing
I've been extremely active in is bail reform, and that's
starting to really feel like a movement now because you
can't have a system in which we have two we
have two separate systems of justice. That's what it comes
down to. What if you have money, what if you
don't have money? And that is a violation of the

(01:09:57):
sixth Amendment and the fourteenth Amendment, equal protection and due
process and the Brown Laws.

Speaker 7 (01:10:02):
Because I feel like this opioid epidemic is not going
to provide as many prisoners in prison as the crackademic epidemic.

Speaker 3 (01:10:08):
I don't know that's the reason. First of all, they're
all dying you know what I mean, So you can't
put them in prison after their death.

Speaker 6 (01:10:14):
Somebody's selling it to women, is not just in the pharmacy.

Speaker 3 (01:10:17):
Yeah, so yeah, No, it's it's bad. I mean, sixty
four thousand opioid deaths in America last year passed. It
became the number one cause of death.

Speaker 7 (01:10:27):
I believe it, but I do not think that it
will have the impact of crack.

Speaker 1 (01:10:31):
No, they're not gonna lock them up with no.

Speaker 2 (01:10:34):
No.

Speaker 3 (01:10:34):
Of course. Now that goes back to like, oh, do
we really even have to say it?

Speaker 6 (01:10:38):
I mean, sometimes you do.

Speaker 7 (01:10:40):
Sometimes you in today in twenty seventeen, unfortunately you do.

Speaker 6 (01:10:43):
Well.

Speaker 2 (01:10:44):
I would like to ask eighteen because I feel like
the Mount Saint Helen's of Innocent Project poster representative, Uh,
I would like to know what your feelings are or
if you even tried to come close to anything remotely

(01:11:06):
touching the case of Philadelphia's own Momia abul Jamar. And
do you think that there's any chance in hell that
even if his case could be reopened and reintroduced with
whatever new You know, because I've been hearing like since

(01:11:28):
the nineties that there's evidence that they wouldn't let us
enter and d but I also know, you know, I'm
a Philadelphian, especially growing up doing the Frank Rizzo era.

Speaker 1 (01:11:40):
You're here, I'm telling you, no real talk.

Speaker 2 (01:11:44):
And so it's not just for everyone like him, but
him specifically. Do you think there's any chance whatsoever? Or
is it just a loss cause? And as far as people, yeah,
rallying for him and.

Speaker 6 (01:12:03):
The Innocent Project even touch is he something that they touch.

Speaker 3 (01:12:07):
The Innocence Project? Now, there are fifty something instance projects
around the country. The main one is the Hub is
in New York. That's the one where I'm on the board,
and we only work on DNA cases. And I don't
believe his is a DNA case. I think it's a
shooting case. But so I haven't been directly involved in
his case, but I will say, and I think it's
it's worth mentioning, and then we'll get back to this

(01:12:29):
that there was a wonderful article in Rolling Stone magazine
about a guy named Tony Wright who was on my
podcast as well, and I'm gonna plug it again wroeful conviction.
But Tony was wrongfully convicted and served twenty five years
in prison in Pennsylvania, and in the article, one of
the bylines it says in nineteen ninety, whatever year it

(01:12:51):
was that he was arrested, a black man had a
better chance of getting justice in Philadelphia, Mississippi than he
did in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. And that was really the case
for a long time time. Now what's interesting is and
where it may pertain. And Tony's out now, and he's
an amazing, amazing guy, and I encourage you to read
that article. So the good news is there's a new

(01:13:15):
DA in Philadelphia who is elected in November, who is
a former I think he's a former civil rights lawyer.
Actually he's he's a fantastic, fantastic guy, and he is
going to make a systemic change in the way justice
is is served in Philly. And and who knows, I

(01:13:35):
don't know whether that will provide, uh, you know, an
opportunity for Mama to to get out. I mean not
even you know others. I have a layman's understanding of
the Mamia Jabar Bul Jamar case. But uh, you know,
there's it, certainly there's light, you know, and and it's

(01:13:57):
and it's important to know there's a there's a wonderful organization.
Shouldn't call the Justice and Safety pack who are backing
progressive das in races like that one where because it
makes such a huge difference. You now have a Houston and.

Speaker 6 (01:14:13):
Chicago I think because people need to know.

Speaker 3 (01:14:15):
It's called the Justice and Safety Pack. Uh and uh
look it up, give money, get involved. It's an incredible group.
They're electing amazing people. We have a black woman uh
DA in Chicago now also in Houston, and when they
come in the difference that it makes in so many
cases is amazing because, like we said, the prosecutors have
all the power and.

Speaker 6 (01:14:36):
The Philly one kind of fucked up. But hopefully I
don't know.

Speaker 8 (01:14:40):
If you oh yeah, he's got he's got serious issues,
got big problems.

Speaker 3 (01:14:44):
And yeah, I mean and I don't want to you know,
we're not but yeah, they're.

Speaker 2 (01:14:51):
Not going to open that door democratic do. So what
would you recommend to uh, especially in the the age
of of of social media and how the way that
news is spread now and awareness is spread and an
alarming rate that it hasn't been done before, what would

(01:15:12):
you recommend for those that simply don't know just small,
minuscule entry ways that they can get involved politically with
helping out you know, the innoces projects and these various
uh organizations that help people in their situation, Like I mean,

(01:15:33):
just beyond retweeting something and you know.

Speaker 1 (01:15:38):
Like what's what's what's step two to get to there?

Speaker 2 (01:15:41):
Because I think a lot of people just even before
meeting you, I would just think like, wow, okay, well
social justice. I'm I'm kind of interested. Yeah, But then
it's like, oh god, I don't know if I could
do that and my day job at the same time.

Speaker 1 (01:15:55):
But are there ways to.

Speaker 2 (01:15:58):
Involve yourself that you know, it doesn't necessarily take up
all the time of your day and or it is
just like you just got to jump in the river
and swim at piranha and snakes and no.

Speaker 3 (01:16:11):
I mean, look, you know, I'm I'm very lucky. I've
been you know, fortunate to be successful in business and
now I can do things at my pace. I also
have a small company now used don't run big companies,
so I have more time and you know, and you know,
and ultimately it's it makes me, It makes me feel good.

(01:16:31):
I call it selfish altruism. You know. I mean I
like helping people, and I like helping the helpless, and
I can't imagine anyone more helpless than someone who's stuck
in our gulag system for a crime they didn't commit.
And so if I can, if I can make a
difference in that way, then that you know that I
don't know, like I actually you know, I had this
thought yesterday. I spent the day in a maximum security

(01:16:52):
prison in Virginia yesterday and I was leaving, I was like,
you know what, there's nowhere else I would have rather been.
You know, I could be playing golf and pebble b
each are doing this, I could be doing whatever the
fuck I want. But it was it was an amazing,
amazing experience. I met with two guys who I'm helping.
One of them has been in for thirty one and
a half years for a crime that he had nothing
to do with and DNA proves it, and you know,

(01:17:16):
and the other guy's been in for ten and it's
a very interesting and complicated case. But you know, I'm
I'm going to make a difference in these two people's lives.

Speaker 1 (01:17:26):
And DNA proves that he had nothing to do with it,
and he still loves.

Speaker 3 (01:17:28):
It nothing to do with it. I mean, it's amazing,
but but there's there's light at the end of the
tunnel there too. And he's an amazing guy. He's a
he teaches tai chi and Meditation's written seven books. He's like,
he's a brilliant guy on top of everything else. His
name is Jens Surring j E N S S O
E R I n G. There's a movie about him

(01:17:50):
called The Promise, and there's gonna be a big twenty
twenty piece in December about his case. But so, how
you can get involved is I mean the first thing
to do is go to go to website. I mean,
go to Innocentsproject dot org, you know, or visit your
local Innocence project website. There's going to be a section
that says how to get involved. You can write letters.
You know, people the politicians actually pay attention when you

(01:18:12):
write letters. You know, letters are better than emails. But
you can write emails. You could get on these mailing lists,
you can, you can create a page, you can you
can write the inmates too. I mean, that's it. That's
a great thing. Whenever I speak to these guys, it
means so much to them that anybody gives a fuck
enough to write a letter. You'd be to be surprised and.

Speaker 6 (01:18:32):
Once you start, you can email, so it's not that deep,
you know what I mean. People are scared of letters.

Speaker 3 (01:18:36):
Yes, that's true. It's a it's a lost art. My
mom used to write letters like crazy. But anyway, she
write a letter.

Speaker 1 (01:18:41):
The last time.

Speaker 6 (01:18:46):
But down they have the email system, so I'm winning
they do.

Speaker 3 (01:18:49):
They go, oh, they can links, you can ye je
different places, but uh and then you know, uh, and
then the other thing is you can organize an event.
I mean you can contact a local organization and you know, organize, uh,
invite your friends over and do a you know, maybe

(01:19:10):
even get an gennery or or just you know, get
somebody to come in and speak, or you know, contact
the local You know, there's organizations all over the country
doing this kind of work. And now that there's Google,
it's really there's really no excuse not to find out
about it and get involved.

Speaker 6 (01:19:24):
Cititism uh work too.

Speaker 7 (01:19:26):
That's I was going to say, under this umbrella of
mass incarceration and all the issues that exist underneath it,
because in my mind, wrongful uh, wrongful imprisonment is one
of them. But what do you think are like to
come some of the other issues underneath that umbrella that
people may need to be concerned about outside of that.

Speaker 3 (01:19:42):
Like, well, there's so many. I mean, for me, I've
been deeply involved in bail reform. I think that's so
important because you know, locking people up when we don't
know if they're guilty, just because they can't pay it
should be an affront to everybody's humanity. And what people
don't understand is that jails in this country, most of

(01:20:03):
them are worse than the worst maximum security prisons. And
the reason and people think jail so jails. And when
you talk to the people that I talked to on
my show, most of them will say that they like
even one guy had on recently, Ryan Ferguson, he was
saying that if he had to go back to maxim
security prison or jail, he said, I'd take two years
at maxim security prison over one year in jail.

Speaker 6 (01:20:25):
Tell them the difference, because everybody don't.

Speaker 1 (01:20:26):
It's difference.

Speaker 3 (01:20:28):
So jail, you go to jail when you're awaiting trial.
And for instance in New York City, Rikers Island has
become infamous. Right, that's jail. It's a jail, it's not
a prison. Right, So in jail, No, there's no recreation
in most jails. They're basically buildings where you can be
in your cell twenty four hours a day with seven
eight other people twenty four hours a day. The lights

(01:20:50):
don't go off in a lot of jails, right, And
it's just a pressure cooker of insanity. And you have
innocent people, guilty people, violent people, we don't know who who.
They're all just thrown in there together just because you
can't post the fucking bail. By the way, do you
know that if you get caught in New York City
and you get taken to rikers and they go your
bail's five hundred dollars and you're like, okay, but I

(01:21:13):
got five hundred with me and they're like, well, where
is it that you guys took my It's in the locker.
They're like, we're gonna just get it out of the locker.
They're like, no, you can't get it out of locker,
not until you're out, not until you're freed. So wait,
so I got the money, but I can't post. No,
you can't post it. Right. And by the way, one
thing I'll say to anybody if you get arrested, remember
phone numbers. When you think about that, you go in
there and get a phone call. You don't have your

(01:21:35):
fucking phone. They took it. You got to remember to
call your mom or whoever it is that's gonna answer
the damn phone. Remember fucking phone numbers, because if you don't,
you're gonna be stuck. And who remembers phone numbers? Think
about it, right, I mean, nobody needs to remember phone
numbers anymore, So that's an important.

Speaker 2 (01:21:53):
I'm gonna say some real one percent shit right now,
go for it. I don't know my number, the phone number.

Speaker 6 (01:22:00):
I don't know your old number. You know, you.

Speaker 2 (01:22:02):
Don't know your own phone number. You don't know I
have four phones, but my home number. I don't know
that ship. Oh you know your phone?

Speaker 1 (01:22:08):
You are right? Like if I didn't have my cell phone,
I wouldn't know.

Speaker 6 (01:22:11):
Nobody's paragraph you just gave us.

Speaker 2 (01:22:15):
It's almost everybody, Like nah, I got like a few
you know your mom's number number I got after like
two thousand and two, I don't I don't know it. Yeah, yeah,
any all my new contexts, but yeah, my mom, my wife,
like my my homie, like Nicola, Yeah, you know what
number I got? Nick's numbers would reach numbers, Shorge numbers

(01:22:37):
I want to.

Speaker 1 (01:22:37):
I want to memorize your number. Person I'm calling anyway,
who said.

Speaker 6 (01:22:42):
You're gonna be wrongfully convicted though you're arrested.

Speaker 2 (01:22:46):
Do you think do you think there's any chance in
hell of us ever repealing the deathly.

Speaker 3 (01:22:52):
Yeah, I think there's a chance of us repealing the
death penalty. And I think it's one of the reasons
I actually I'm really it's very gratifying to me because
I'll get sometimes a direct message or something from somebody,
or message on Facebook whatever, But I don't really use
Facebook that much. I'm on Instagram. Instagram is my ship.
By the way, ad is Jason Plump. I gotta plug that.
I'm gonna tell you laugh. I'll make you cry. I

(01:23:13):
guarantee it. That is Jason Flumm follow me. So. But yeah,
I'll get messages from people saying, you know, I used
to believe in the death penalty, but now that I
hear on your podcast about all these wrongful convictions, I
realize it happens. You know, We've had twenty one DNA
exonerations from death row, you know. And I say, to
anybody who believes in the death penalty, which I don't,

(01:23:34):
if you believe in the death penalty. Then you're saying
that you're okay with sometimes executing anything wrong.

Speaker 1 (01:23:39):
Right, then you're.

Speaker 3 (01:23:40):
Okay with that. I just want to make sure you're
okay with that. Right. We executed an innocent guy in America, oh,
two months ago in Arkansas, the deel Lee innocent as
the day is long. The DNA proved it, and they
executed him anyway, and you know he was a client
of ours.

Speaker 2 (01:23:57):
Can I ask, uh, what is your annual Well, I
know it moves in the snail space depending on what
state you're dealing with it and trying to get them exonerated,
But what is your annual average of turning these cases around?

Speaker 3 (01:24:16):
Well, that's a hard question to answer because there's innocence
projects all over the country, like I said, affiliated with
different law schools. There's innocance projects in the forty three states,
I think, and there are there's more exonerations every year,
I think. I don't know the exact number last year,
but I think it was it might have been a

(01:24:37):
couple hundred Nationally. It is not enough because if you
think about it, the best estimates are that somewhere between
four and seven percent of the people in prison in America,
not including jail, right, are innocent, right, So that sounds
a lot like about one hundred thousand people that are
innocent in prison right now while we're sitting there. And
like I said, I'm not talking about jail jail, A

(01:24:58):
huge percentage of people in jail are in the same
because I haven't even tried yet, and so you know,
And that's the thing, like I said, that whole the
death penalty has to go away, like fucking civilized countries
don't excellent execute people. And we're in the top five
behind like China, Iran, North Korea and I don't know, Pakistandards.

(01:25:19):
It's not a good group to be in, you know
what I'm saying. Of course, now we're the only country
in the world that's not in the Paris Agreement, right,
Syria actually signed on yesterday. Syria.

Speaker 7 (01:25:28):
I was about to ask you, what's the what do
you think of the top issues with us and having
Trump in here in reference to the work that you
do things.

Speaker 3 (01:25:36):
All of them.

Speaker 1 (01:25:37):
Yeah, that was what I'm saying.

Speaker 3 (01:25:40):
Yeah, all, yeah, it's all.

Speaker 2 (01:25:42):
Yeah, how does the Innocence Project raise money? Like I'm
figuring that you guys would in order to keep up
with the thousands and thousands and thousands of cases that
you have to deal with. You know that there's less
people on the Innocence Project side.

Speaker 1 (01:26:00):
Of the fence to help.

Speaker 2 (01:26:04):
The amount of prisoners that you know are coming to
you guys for these for your help.

Speaker 3 (01:26:09):
So yeah, I mean we raised money from individuals and foundations.
That's what we do, and you know, every little bit helps.
The more money that comes in. It is a not
for profit, donations are tax deductible, and you know, the
more money that comes in, the more more difference we
can make, not only in individual cases, but also in

(01:26:30):
creating systemic changes and how everything from lineups are conducted
to forensics to you know, to there's so many changes
that have to be made in the way the way
interrogations are done, right, I mean everything videotaping, mandatory videotaping
of introgations in New York State just passed that finally, Right,
we didn't have that New York City. Yeah, just passed it. Yeah,

(01:26:54):
shout out to del Ricomo for that one. But yeah,
I mean that's that's it's so crazy, right, it's.

Speaker 6 (01:26:59):
Just him on a first forty eight yet, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:27:02):
It's it's I mean, look, we were also the second
to last state to UH to stop treating juveniles putting
juveniles in adult prisons, you know, like it was only
us and I think South Carolina were the last two. Yeah,
gouvenills in adult prisons. And yeah, and back to the
jail thing, the jail, the jail thing. They're so dangerous.
I mean, Clif Brouder, anybody, you know what I mean. Yeah,

(01:27:23):
rest in peace, I mean. And then there are others,
I mean, and my my thing is to try to
prevent that from happening. I started the thing in the
Bronx called the Freedom Fund, which was the first bail
fund in the country, which basically how that works is
I raised the money. My dad actually put up half
the money to start it when I when I went
to him with the idea, and I put the money
in the hands of the lawyers at the Bronx Defenders,

(01:27:44):
which is a great organization, and they post bail for
their own clients in misdemeanor cases. So it was it
was an innovative idea, it seemed common sensical.

Speaker 6 (01:27:53):
Made it to the bill later.

Speaker 3 (01:27:55):
No, No, the good money comes back when you when
they show up for court. And by the way, ninety
seven percent of our clients show up for every court date.
We have a higher percentage of people showing up than
people who actually have to pay money if they don't. Right,
So that whole argument's out the window that we need
money bail to make sure people show up. People, you
know what they do. They show up. We send them
a text message and say don't forget you know what
I mean. And that's how they show up. And they

(01:28:15):
show up, and then usually their cases are dismissed because
if they have you in jail, you got to plead
guilty or you ain't going home. So but if you're out,
they just they're a good process for jumping jail.

Speaker 6 (01:28:27):
You have to plead guilty or else you ain't going home.

Speaker 3 (01:28:30):
Think about that, right, you're gonna you're gonna be in
jail for you want to stay in rikers for a
week two weeks waiting for your court date. And and
by the way, sometimes you'll go to court and they'll
the prosecutor will say, well, you know, we're really not
ready for this case, your honor, And the judge says, okay,
come back in three weeks. What else can he say?

Speaker 2 (01:28:46):
So if you're saying that I'm not guilty, then I'm
doing that time in Rikers until.

Speaker 3 (01:28:53):
And a lot of people will end up serving more
time in Rikers than they would have served if they
were guilty.

Speaker 1 (01:28:58):
Wait, okay, I got wait ask a fourth time.

Speaker 2 (01:29:01):
So you're saying, okay, let's say I did jump a
turnstot and I get arrested and taken too. Well, you
go downtown first before you go to Rikers. I assume
it depends. Where is there such a thing as downtown?

Speaker 1 (01:29:14):
Is that just television New York? You're going downtown.

Speaker 3 (01:29:16):
There's the tombs, but almost everybody goes to Rikers.

Speaker 6 (01:29:18):
Okay the way it don't sound fun?

Speaker 1 (01:29:22):
Yeah, I learned.

Speaker 2 (01:29:22):
Also, don't do anything on Thursday or Friday or.

Speaker 6 (01:29:26):
Yes, you'll be a weekdays.

Speaker 1 (01:29:28):
So you're saying that once they're in process.

Speaker 2 (01:29:33):
If I say that I'm innocent and you got the
wrong person, I'm staying in Rikers.

Speaker 3 (01:29:39):
That's what happened to Khalif Browner. He was there for
three years awaiting trial. Three years I mean, and then
they dropped the charges. You know that, right, They dropped
the chargers after three years.

Speaker 6 (01:29:50):
I don't even like to think about him because.

Speaker 3 (01:29:52):
No, yeah, it's I mean, and he ain't the last one.
There was this case with Pedro Hernandez. I was in
court when his when the charge some of the charges
were dropped. He was he was in for a year
awaiting trial, and he was a valedictorian in his class
in Rikers Island and was offered a college scholarship, and

(01:30:12):
they were trying to keep him in there, you know,
so that he would miss his college. But he just
got out. But yeah, his case is horrible too.

Speaker 2 (01:30:21):
So for those that are wrongfully convicted, do you guys
also work on making sure that the state makes up
for any wrong convictions or wrongdoing as far as like.

Speaker 1 (01:30:36):
Emotions and those.

Speaker 2 (01:30:38):
Things, and what's the like, what's the likelihood of because
I'm thinking about the Central.

Speaker 6 (01:30:43):
Park fact, you know, what they say is not even
but even.

Speaker 1 (01:30:48):
Then it's like.

Speaker 2 (01:30:51):
So mentally fucked up from there from there. So I'm asking,
I'm asking about, like, you know, mental health and all
those things. Is that even thought about now or is
that just like a you know, the lost cost to
even think that.

Speaker 3 (01:31:10):
Your mental health of exonerreies. Yeah, yeah, I mean it's
something that I've been very focused on. I you know,
I started a thing called the Life After Exoneration Program
at the Innocence Project and also the thing that's become
the Innocence Network Conference, which is as a group every
year we bring together a lot of exgneries. Last year

(01:31:31):
I had two hundred in the same room who collectively
had served over thirty six hundred years in prison. And
it's all for healing and you know, adapting and reintegrating
into society, because I feel the same way you do, Like,
what do we do for these people when they we've
you know, we've wronged them so much, and you know,
when they get out, they get a bus ticket basically

(01:31:52):
and forty dollars in a lot of cases, and you know,
sometimes not even an apology. And then if they sue.
You know, thirty states have compensation statutes and twenty don't,
and you know it is New York one of them.
New York does. And then you know, even the even
the states that do have very very different, you know,

(01:32:13):
levels that you can you can get. You know, some
of them are so shockingly low that you would be embarrassed.
But that's something we've been working on changing and getting.
You know, we actually managed to get a very good
bill passed in Texas, of all places, so in Texas
you get now I can't remember. I think it's fifty

(01:32:34):
or eighty thousand a year for every year you were
locked up, plus an annuity of an equal amount. So
it's not a fortune, but at least it's something to
start your life again, because a lot of these people
come out after ten, fifteen, twenty thirty years in prison
and good luck getting a job. Right, what are you
going to do? You don't know how to do phone?

Speaker 1 (01:32:51):
Yeah, I've never seen a phone.

Speaker 3 (01:32:52):
I mean, like, and so you know, we are, you know,
we are working on that. Amazing, you know, the spirit
of these people is so strong. I guess the ones
that collapse never get out, you know. And and I'll
talk to the ex houneries and I'm like, I'm always
amazed at how they don't show any signs of bitterness,

(01:33:16):
you know. And it's but it's it's it's true, and
it's incredible. You know, not every single one, but almost
every single one has this like state of grace that
they're in where they've just let go and they're you know,
they'll say things like I don't want to live in
the past. I can't change the past. I want to
move forward. I want to live every day in my
life is you know, like I can't you know what

(01:33:37):
am I gonna do? Walk around being bitter and angry.
It's not going to help me, you know. It's like
that's where they say bitterness is a pill you take
hoping to make somebody else sick. Right, But the fact is,
there are a lot of things that we're putting in
place all over you know, I mean that that are
designed to help hoies. You know what's crazy, love is

(01:33:58):
that if you are guilty of a crime and you
serve your time and you proll out, you get a
prole officer, and you get certain services that are designed
to help you get back into society. They don't always work.
You don't get it if if you're innothing to getting nothing,
what mn and even if you sue, and even if
you're able to sue, and if look how long it

(01:34:19):
took the Central Part five to get paid, right, I
mean Central Park five. You were a kid growing up
when that shit happened. Right now, they just got paid
what was it like a year ago? And it's worth
mentioning that Trump took out ads at the time of
their arrest, calling for all of them to be executed.
He spent a bunch of money on all the newspapers
in New York say these guys should be executed, and
of course he still says they're guilty because he knows
these things. And the first, you know, the first episode

(01:34:44):
of my podcast, I actually interviewed Raymond Santana. It's a
really powerful episode. And I've done, I've done, you know,
I do a lot of speaking, and I did a
speech with him at the Nantucket Project, which you can
actually look up online if you just google my name
and Nantucket Project where I interviewed him on stage, and

(01:35:05):
he's extraordinary, I mean, in that story is extraordinary.

Speaker 2 (01:35:09):
I have a one more question, and I know it's
weird to ask, but because a lot of these a
lot of the people that you're releasing, some of them
have certain decades in you know, three, two, three, four decades,
I assume.

Speaker 3 (01:35:27):
Yeah, guy got out in New Orleans this week after
forty six years.

Speaker 1 (01:35:32):
I was going this week, I was going to say.

Speaker 3 (01:35:34):
Wilbert Jones, how old is he now? I don't even
know how old he is? Forty five or six forty five?
He went in in seventy one my.

Speaker 2 (01:35:44):
Life, Well, yeah, that's forty six years.

Speaker 3 (01:35:47):
Yeah, right, you're born seventy one, right.

Speaker 1 (01:35:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:35:49):
So I was going to say that I have a
couple of friends in Philadelphia that were caught up in
the system.

Speaker 4 (01:35:57):
And.

Speaker 2 (01:36:00):
Coming out of jail was so frightening for them that
it was almost like the feeling of you going to jail,
and to the point that two of those three basically
told their families like, look, I'm gonna I'm not going
to go see my uh my, my Bill, my parole officer,

(01:36:23):
because I don't know anything in this world, like I
gotta go back.

Speaker 1 (01:36:27):
I mean, it's kind of some weird stock.

Speaker 2 (01:36:30):
Yeah, So like, what's what are the cases of those
that you get out and they come out and they're
just like, I have nothing to live for, Like I
my whole world is inside of that prison. And one,
you know, willingly want to go back because I know
that that happens a lot.

Speaker 3 (01:36:48):
You know, I've heard that happens. It happened in Shawshak Redemption, right,
but movies. But I haven't seen not even one of these.

Speaker 7 (01:37:00):
I don't want to do that, probably guilty.

Speaker 3 (01:37:04):
That might be the distinction. It's a psychological you know phenomenon.
But yeah, it's it's getting out is another punishment, you know,
when they come out and we make it so difficult
for them to get compensated. It takes years, even in
the cases where it's successful. And you know, I've taken
it as my you know, one of my missions to

(01:37:27):
try to help bridge that gap when I can, because
you know, these people deserve I mean, they got everything
coming to them and they get nothing, you know, like
we owe them as a society and everything. It's it's like,
there should be free education for these people. There should
be housing, there should be you know, it's nuts, Like

(01:37:50):
it's just I don't know.

Speaker 7 (01:37:52):
Have you been able to garner any of your roster,
any of your kind of celebrity friends to not just
be a voice, we kind of get involved as well.

Speaker 3 (01:38:03):
None of the none of the ones that I work
directly with, have gotten involved in any deep level.

Speaker 2 (01:38:08):
I mean, like do they know of your work, of
your kind of Clark Kent Superman life for it?

Speaker 3 (01:38:13):
Do I look like someone who knows how to shut up?
Because he might have be mixed up with some other guy?
But no, I yeah, I mean I'm proselytizing this stuff
all the time. Like I said, I promoted on my
Instagram and anybody who follows me knows that. And then
I you know, and I also talk about it to
anybody that will listen, and you know, and it is amazing.

(01:38:33):
I mean the you know, social media has been really
helpful for me in getting that word out, but it
hasn't yet. I mean, look a lot of people some
people are just not you know, the people. I think
in their thirties is usually when people start to become
interested in really making a different something else. I mean,
you know, I mean, you know, look Scooter Braun. Interesting, right,

(01:38:55):
here's a guy who's on top of the world and
he's now look what he's doing right with these kind
inserts Manchester thing and the hurricane relief. I mean, he's
become that guy in his mid thirties.

Speaker 1 (01:39:06):
Where he's like, I'm Bob Gildo.

Speaker 3 (01:39:09):
It hit it hits you at some point that you
have a higher purpose. And I don't mean that in
a religious way. It's just like you have, you know,
you have a calling. I mean, we're here, We're here
to be our brother's keepers. And that's the way it is,
you know, like and and it doesn't make any sense
to fight that feeling, like, just go with it. I mean, look,
some people have working three jobs just to put food
on the table. They don't have time. But you know,
it's that old thing. If you're up to your ass

(01:39:30):
at alligators, it's hard to remember to dream the swamp.
But you know, if you got, if you got yours,
then get off your ass and go find your shit
like it's it's give. It makes me so fucking happy
to be able to make this difference. It's it's nuts.
I mean, like I feel, I feel lucky, you know,
to be in a position to be able to do

(01:39:51):
this and to have found something that really touches me
and makes me want to do more every day.

Speaker 2 (01:39:57):
Well, man, we thank you for fighting a good fight,
and hopefully that will inspire listeners to uh you know,
get involved as well.

Speaker 6 (01:40:05):
And we are lucky to have you.

Speaker 1 (01:40:08):
Have you, thank the show.

Speaker 3 (01:40:09):
Thanks for that. Thank you. Since project dot org everybody.

Speaker 2 (01:40:13):
Yes, it's Jason Flummer Instagram. I just followed him.

Speaker 1 (01:40:17):
It's Jason.

Speaker 3 (01:40:18):
I'm a follow backer. Let me now watching a thousand
people to follow me back? What is this guy? Full ship?
We have?

Speaker 1 (01:40:26):
Let's talk ask right now?

Speaker 2 (01:40:30):
Yeah, twenty questions, are you serious second coming to Okay?

Speaker 1 (01:40:35):
No, they weren't a second company to you.

Speaker 6 (01:40:37):
I'm just saying no.

Speaker 1 (01:40:38):
Matchbox twenty was like twenty years before, ten years before.

Speaker 2 (01:40:41):
Listen, just let him have this, give me, give me
a three match box. Any questions then?

Speaker 3 (01:40:46):
Words?

Speaker 2 (01:40:47):
Now, let me see Okay, massbuster? Okay, Rob Thomas, I don't.

Speaker 1 (01:40:53):
Know what do I stought?

Speaker 2 (01:40:53):
Okay, just yourself? Just like yourself? Is someone like you?
That was the album with three am on it?

Speaker 1 (01:40:59):
Right? Okay?

Speaker 3 (01:41:04):
So much because this is like me trying to freestyle.

Speaker 2 (01:41:07):
Man, I don't know what, Rob Thomas, So it was
that one he had three amals on that record, and
then what was the big big record, Push Push Push?

Speaker 1 (01:41:15):
How do you know that? It was everywhere everywhere? How
do you not know it? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:41:20):
That record was everywhere? Okay, So then the thing happened.
How did did that affect the group at all? Like
once he had that huge record, once smooth came out smoothly,
that messed up group dynamics with Rob and the rest
of the guys.

Speaker 3 (01:41:35):
Oh that's a good question. I never really thought of
it that way, And I don't know. I think it's hard,
you know, it's hard to figure out the cause of
the effect, but you know, it seems like something like
that will affect the dynamic one way or another. Right.

Speaker 1 (01:41:47):
It was always kind of just robbing the other guys,
wasn't it. Yeah I didn't know.

Speaker 3 (01:41:51):
Yeah, I mean, yeah, Rob's that guy I mean.

Speaker 2 (01:41:55):
And then Sugar Ray, whose idea was it to put
super Cat on something?

Speaker 1 (01:41:59):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:42:00):
I think that was the producer David Khan who had
that idea.

Speaker 1 (01:42:04):
David con produced him.

Speaker 3 (01:42:07):
David Khan, Damn.

Speaker 1 (01:42:08):
That's he produced.

Speaker 3 (01:42:10):
Yeah. It was strange, you wouldn't think, right, but yeah,
he produced fly.

Speaker 1 (01:42:13):
I did not know that.

Speaker 3 (01:42:14):
Wow, that was fun.

Speaker 1 (01:42:16):
That's the joint. Okay, that's cool.

Speaker 2 (01:42:20):
Any cold Play questions, man, because okay cold Play, I
don't Actually.

Speaker 3 (01:42:24):
I only work with them for a minute, so I
don't know, like.

Speaker 1 (01:42:27):
I literally okay, well, Craig on the show.

Speaker 3 (01:42:30):
I didn't even work with them. I met them. They
were just happened to be signed to the label I
was running. But you know, I was only I was
only there for a whatever, a couple of years. And yeah,
they were they were doing they were the stratus for already.
I get zero credit for that.

Speaker 2 (01:42:44):
Okay, we're all when I said and done for your
your music, your music career, what's the one achievement where
you're just like.

Speaker 3 (01:42:54):
Me?

Speaker 2 (01:42:54):
I did that like to yourself, you know, your humble
brag moment to yourself inside.

Speaker 5 (01:42:59):
That you're gonna guess on Pandora In the music business. Yeah,
in the music business.

Speaker 3 (01:43:04):
I mean it's funny because the one thing we didn't
even talk about is one of my proudest accomplishments, which
is Translateburian Orchestra. You know, because of it, Yeah, I
mean Translbian Orchestra. Was was it crazy? Crazy ass story?
You know, I'd signed this metal group called Sabotage, not
because I want to do it, because a guy I
was hanging out with back in those days wouldn't leave
me alone. And so, you know, I don't even really

(01:43:27):
like metal music, but I like hard rock. But anyway,
they'd she had fallen out of favor, and you know,
we're really I was. I actually dropped them in ninety
six because they weren't doing anything. And then one day
their lawyer, Nick Ferrara, calls me on the phone and says,
did you know the w PLJ is going to add
Sabotage tomorrow? And I said, do you know you must

(01:43:49):
be the single dumbest lawyer in America? You think w
And we can't even get that shit played on metal
stations anymore. College stations won't even playing what are you
talking about? PLJ was the biggest station the country back then,
you remember. And so next day Scott Shannon, this was
December eleventh of ninety six, Scott Shannon plays the last
song on the Sabotage album, and not only does he

(01:44:11):
play it, he reads the liner notes and he goes
into a whole thing about how there is the most
powerful piece of music. And every store in New York
blows out right like people are calling the stores are
calling us, going where's this record? We need more of
these records. We're like, we don't even know, Like we
don't have any. We dropped the band. And then Scott
starts calling other radio stations saying, this is the biggest

(01:44:32):
thing I've ever seen at it right, And all these
other stations called Colonis saying, so it turns out they
had put a Christmas song on a metal album, right,
who does that?

Speaker 1 (01:44:40):
It was?

Speaker 3 (01:44:41):
The last song was Carol of the Bells, done with
metal guitars and an orchestra.

Speaker 1 (01:44:46):
So like members were they.

Speaker 3 (01:44:48):
There was four members in Sabotage, but the smiff's guy
was really the producer, who was a guy nam Paul
O'Neil who sadly died this year, and so he he
had made this record d D then the with the
good metal guitars, and no no, no, no, no no, it
was the strings right, and then then the guitar. No no,
no no no, and for whatever reason, it was pure magic. Right.

(01:45:10):
So we start shipping and pressing these records and setting
them out as fast as we can, making copies for
the radio stations, and because we still own the mastery
though we had dropped the band. And then in January
I called Paul on you and I go, Paul, people
love this record, but they hate Sabotage. So I said,
here's what I want you to do. Take that song,
don't mix it, don't fix it, don't edit it, don't

(01:45:33):
do a fucking thing to it, because it's perfect, and
make a whole album of songs just like that. Give
it a nice Christmas Eve name, and I'll sell millions
for you. So he calls me up. A couple of
weeks later, he goes, what do you think about Trans
Siberian Orchestra on what the fuck do I know? I'm Jewish?
I don't know about if you making help of calling
so he so we called the Trans Siberian Orchestra and

(01:45:55):
it became the biggest Christmas artist in the history of
the world.

Speaker 6 (01:45:58):
Publishing must be crazy.

Speaker 3 (01:46:00):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, unfortunately that's not me, but whatever, But so, yeah,
so that was really fun because it was so difficult
to break that act. That one in kid Rock really
were the hardest, and in spite of the current things
that are going on, it was so much fun breaking
Kid Rock. Looking back, it was just nobody was on
that guy. I mean, it was like everybody was against him.

Speaker 2 (01:46:18):
He told me the story, did you you said you
want to sign too?

Speaker 3 (01:46:21):
He's the one that broke on the golf course.

Speaker 2 (01:46:23):
You didn't get to sign to. Were you at Virgin
with the Perfect Circle his side group?

Speaker 3 (01:46:28):
No, I didn't. I don't think they made any records
while I was there, so they may have been signed there,
but I never got to deal with that. I did
try to sign him as a solo artist as well,
and that didn't work out either. So yeah, that was
Perfect Circle, right, I tried to sign perfect Circle, so
he he he left me at the altar twice. You know,
I'm still a fan.

Speaker 1 (01:46:46):
He's really I love his voice.

Speaker 3 (01:46:49):
So yeah, I think those those were the most fun.
I mean, I'm super proud of Tory Amos because I
think she's had a real impact on music and culture.

Speaker 1 (01:46:57):
There's a lot we didn't mention.

Speaker 2 (01:46:58):
We didn't get to talk about Lord or Jesse, Jay
or I didn't even ask for di'angelo nightmare story.

Speaker 1 (01:47:04):
Oh we already have plenty of those, right.

Speaker 2 (01:47:10):
I think we got off our questions out. We thank
you very much for coming on the show.

Speaker 3 (01:47:15):
Well, we finished credit and we started considering. I garbled
my wrap.

Speaker 2 (01:47:22):
Yeah yeah, on behalf of Boss Bill Unpaid, Bill Sugar,
Steve Fan, Tickelo and it's like Elite, It's Lee or Cohen. No,
it's like this is Quest Love signing off. Thank you
very much Jason for joining us, and so let's key too.

Speaker 1 (01:47:40):
Right, make sure you make sure he signs rease form too.

Speaker 2 (01:47:43):
We will see you next week on the next go
round of Quest Love Supreme, only on Pandora.

Speaker 1 (01:47:56):
West.

Speaker 2 (01:47:56):
Love Supreme is a production of iHeart Radio. This class
said of U Soap was produced by the.

Speaker 1 (01:48:01):
Team at Maandora.

Speaker 2 (01:48:06):
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
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