QLS Classic: LA Reid Part 3

Looking back to the third and final part of LA Reid's epic QLS interview. This 2022 chat covers the founding of LaFace Records and some rarely discussed history surrounding OutKast and TLC. LA also looks at his time leading Def Jam and identifying Rihanna and Kanye West as the label's new stars.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Questlof Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. What's Up?

Speaker 2 (00:04):
This is Sugar Steve from questloff Supreme. Anybody who knows
this podcast is well aware that our interviews can last
for hours, so often we split them into two parts.
It also gives listeners a suspenseful reason to come back
next week or check their podcast feed for more episodes.
Back in twenty twenty two, we sat down with La
Reid for what became a rare three part interview. The

(00:25):
third and final part of La Read's epic QLs interview
covers the founding of La Face Records and some rarely
discussed history surrounding outcasts and TLC. Please rate, like, and
subscribe to this on your podcast feeds, check back for
new episodes, and follow our new YouTube page at QLs.

Speaker 3 (00:45):
At the time in eighty eight eighty nine, I wouldn't
have thought, Hey, Atlanta is a great place to build
my empire. What did you see in Atlanta that we
didn't see? Because at the time, the only artist I
knew that lived in Atlanta was People Bryson.

Speaker 4 (01:02):
And then you changed everything. You changed the whole culture
of a city.

Speaker 3 (01:06):
So why did you choose Atlanta and how did you
choose Atlanta?

Speaker 1 (01:11):
Why and how?

Speaker 5 (01:13):
It was a combination. It was myself, Babyface and Pebbles.
All three of us were in the studio on Kwanga Boulevard,
in a studio called Ilumba, and we collectively decided that
we wanted to leave. We wanted to move out of
LA for various reasons.

Speaker 1 (01:29):
Okay, why.

Speaker 4 (01:30):
One was we're concerned.

Speaker 5 (01:32):
About earthquakes seriously, and that sounds kind of crazy, it's real.
We were concerned about cost of living and we had
just started to make some money and we wanted to
know how to stretch that right. And so the idea was,
let's and we just come off tour, like we just

(01:54):
finished that last tour and we've been all over the country,
and we didn't think La was like the only place
on Earth. So we had a conversation about moving. So
we put a map on the wall. We had a
very serious conversation about.

Speaker 1 (02:06):
Boo, yeah, that's what to say. You put a map out.

Speaker 4 (02:08):
Very serious conversation.

Speaker 5 (02:10):
We put a map on the wall, a map of
the United States, and first we looked at everyone's hometown.

Speaker 4 (02:17):
Where should we go? Should we go to the Bay
Area where Pebbles is from she was from Atlanta, She's
from the Bay.

Speaker 5 (02:24):
We were like, nah, wow, the Indianapolis where babyfaces from
Cincinnati where I'm from.

Speaker 4 (02:33):
Nah. Then we were like New York and then Kenny.

Speaker 5 (02:39):
We thought about our experiences being in New York and writing,
and we were like, we don't write that well in
New York. Now we got it. Dallas, big homes, big
great lifestyle. One of us, and I don't remember who
said Atlanta, and all I remember all of us saying yes,

(03:04):
because Atlanta. If you're on tour, when you go through Atlanta,
it's like the Mecca.

Speaker 4 (03:11):
Right.

Speaker 5 (03:12):
Everything was like upscale. It was like everything from the
pre Olympics. Oh yeah, this is eighty eight eighty eight Yeah,
I mean Olympic they didn't have skyscrapers.

Speaker 3 (03:26):
I mean you guys and Bobby Brown, I'll never understand,
Like we all like, why would y'all do that?

Speaker 5 (03:32):
We picked Atlanta because we knew we could live. Well,
I'm being honest, right, we just knew we could live.
We went down looked at some houses and the house prices,
the real estate prices, like, we were.

Speaker 4 (03:45):
Like, we can live, we can live well down here.

Speaker 5 (03:47):
This place is dope, So we I called Irving Azos,
who was running MCA at the time, who we thought
we were going to make the La Face deal with.

Speaker 4 (03:57):
And I said, Irving, I have an idea. That what's
the idea?

Speaker 5 (04:01):
I said, how's the South motown up the South the
Face Records Atlanta, Georgia, And he said, where do I sign?
And that's how it started. And he gave us the
seed money to move, booked the planes, booked.

Speaker 4 (04:18):
The hotels, found us a lawyer, found us a real.

Speaker 5 (04:21):
Estate agent, and we went down and we literally stayed
there until we found homes.

Speaker 1 (04:28):
And where did Clive Davis come in the picture?

Speaker 5 (04:30):
Irv Irving's quit working at MCA. Oh, he left the company?

Speaker 4 (04:36):
Right?

Speaker 5 (04:37):
So enter Clarence Avon, Yes, godfather, So Clarence Avon who
had always been there, right. Clarence says, well, if you're
not doing it with Irving, then I'm going to introduce
you to Jerry Moss, David Geffen and all of the
various players. And we met everybody, and everybody was interested.

(04:58):
Moe Austin, I met everybody.

Speaker 1 (05:01):
How did you get out the contract though you signed
on the dotted line.

Speaker 4 (05:04):
No, no, we didn't sign anything.

Speaker 5 (05:06):
We just got producer advances because we made all of
our hits at MCA, so we had a lot of
money in the pipeline. So he just basically gave us
the money that we were Oh.

Speaker 1 (05:17):
You didn't have to recoup it back or repay back or.

Speaker 5 (05:20):
We never signed one thing. No, wow, No, we didn't
sign anything. We just and it was a lot of money,
you know, especially at that time, I can imagine, yeah,
you know.

Speaker 4 (05:31):
So Clams introduced us to everybody.

Speaker 5 (05:33):
And when I was eighteen years old, I read this
book by this great record executive, Clive Davis, the Yellow Book,
and I don't even know why. I don't even know why,
eighteen nineteen years old, why am I reading about a
record executive. I didn't even know why. But there was
a photo of him sitting at the Beverly Hills Hotel
pool slide in the family with sliced stone, and I

(05:55):
was like, I.

Speaker 4 (05:55):
Want to be that guy right, not sly, I want
to be the guy sitting next. This is a lot, right, So.

Speaker 5 (06:03):
This is my big opportunity to meet the great Clive Davis.

Speaker 4 (06:07):
And Clarence set it up.

Speaker 5 (06:10):
We walked into the bungalow at the Beverly Hills Hotel,
to meet Clive Davis, and my mind was already made up.
I was like, I'm doing this with Clive, but I
couldn't say that. I couldn't play, I couldn't show the hand,
and I didn't actually know how Face felt about it
at the time. You know, a New Face really wanted
to work on Whitney, so it just all felt right.

(06:31):
We thought we were going to do it with David Geffen,
who said yes to our deal, and then he came
back and said, actually, no, I don't want to do it.
And his reasoning was, I'm not committed to the genre.
It wasn't bad at all. It was very honest. He
was like, I'm a rock. He ain't any waste that time.

Speaker 1 (06:50):
He's like, that's right, he wasn't.

Speaker 6 (06:55):
That's what I was thinking.

Speaker 3 (06:56):
I was like, oh wow. Now I'm just thinking, like wow,
I could have signed to the label. I could have
signed a Little Face in nineteen ninety three Wendy Goldstein.
It just went to like, now I magine the alternate
lifetime where Outcast needs help and the Roots are the
world my god, and the Roots are the one that's hot.

Speaker 4 (07:18):
That's actually really hot.

Speaker 7 (07:20):
That's time, man, I have a while we all have
a very specific outcast question. So I want you to
talk about the differences in working with between Dre and
Big Boy. I really study. Big Boy is somebody that
I really look at, and I look at a lot
of the moves in his career and they seem to
be a direct reflection of you know, you know, his

(07:43):
relationship with you. So I wanted to know he talks.
He's always spoken very highly and stuff much, you know
what I mean? Yeah, So, like, how have you how's
that relationship between those two guys over the years, how's
that developed?

Speaker 4 (07:56):
It's always been really good.

Speaker 5 (07:58):
And the truth is, I think it might have been
one of my better relationships because I didn't know their
music as well, Like like I couldn't.

Speaker 4 (08:08):
Tamper, do you know what I mean?

Speaker 5 (08:09):
Like if usc makes a record, I have a very
strong opinion about it, or anybody you know usher makes
a record, I have a very strong opinion about it.
But Withoutkas there were such originals that if they felt
passionately about it, my job was to be a servant
leader instead of being instead of meddling.

Speaker 3 (08:29):
I have a question, Okay, am I the only one
that thinks this fonte as much as I love Elevators. Okay,
dude in nineteen ninety six, to make your first single
a very slow temple song that's like eighty eight bpms,

(08:50):
not not conducive to what I believe dance culture was in.

Speaker 7 (08:54):
But that was in the South Atlanta.

Speaker 1 (08:56):
That yeah, that was such a song.

Speaker 7 (09:00):
South for us, man, that was nah with shit, it
wasn't missed for us. We ran the fuck out of Elevators,
like immediately.

Speaker 3 (09:05):
Because when I got that, like by that point, I
was like getting serviced by DJs and whatnot. And yes,
as a as a as a Northeasterner like I was,
I was in the groove of where hip hop was
in that period between like ninety two bpms and one
hundred bpms, like very fast pitt And when I put
Elevators on, I just stared at the record, like, you know,

(09:28):
this is so slow and space.

Speaker 1 (09:30):
And how am I gonna wake make this work in
my DJ sets?

Speaker 3 (09:34):
And yet y'all went with it like there was no
fear whatsoever.

Speaker 5 (09:39):
I actually didn't know one way or another, like to
be honest with you, right, Andre and Big Boy Enrico Way,
they came to the office and they were like, this
is it this is it, this is it, And I
knew Andre. What I did know is that that Andre
verse was we all knew that. I mean that was
like seriously, like, damn, he's good. He's really good. But

(10:00):
as a song I probably had the same opinion you did.
I was like, this is a little slow. It's not
that clear either, you know, like it wasn't it wasn't.
It wasn't sparkling. It was dark, right, And so I
had the same could But I really believed in I
really believed in Rico way like Rico Waite was the leader,

(10:22):
and he was he was my ears, my eyes and
my ears to everything that we were doing in that
world of outcast, the goodie mob and even you know,
parental advisory is yes, right, they were in the crew
as well. So I just listened to Rico and it worked.

(10:47):
And after it worked, my relationship with them was you guys,
make your own decisions. If you want my opinion, I'll
give you my opinion, but I'm not giving you my
opinion unless you ask me.

Speaker 7 (10:58):
Yeah, is that still your relationship would be? Boy? Y'all
still to this day do what he says.

Speaker 3 (11:07):
Okay, So, without Rico's presence on speaker box. How do
you trust your instincts? I mean, by this point, they're
they're now a marquee act, they're you're a listers and
without the muscle of organized noise sort of under them.
I mean, even though they're there somewhat, How shaky was

(11:29):
it to navigate a double album of clearly two different
sides right, and not only make it work, but make
it one of their most and to take them on stage.
I was there that night. I couldn't believe that shit.
How hard not hard, or how worrisome were you to

(11:50):
like go with your gut being the I'm assuming that
you're now manning the ship for at least that album,
that you didn't have to go there to guide you.

Speaker 5 (12:00):
So things that kind of changed. They really grew intoday.
They really had grown into it. I mean this was
after Stink On YOUA, right, and which was a massive
success for them, And I mean the real story was
it was big boys solo album, right, and it was

(12:21):
complete and it was done and I heard I like
the way you moved, so I felt confident that we
had like a big single. And Andre called because they
weren't working together. I mean, this is fairly common knowledge.
I think they weren't working together. And Andre called the office,

(12:46):
read when you're dropping Big Boys album.

Speaker 4 (12:50):
I gave him the date.

Speaker 5 (12:52):
He's like, so, if I want to drop an album
with that.

Speaker 4 (12:58):
How much time do I have? And I think I
told him, you got three weeks.

Speaker 7 (13:03):
He was like three weeks.

Speaker 4 (13:07):
Okay, what wait?

Speaker 1 (13:10):
So we don't know.

Speaker 5 (13:15):
I didn't know what he had recorded because he wasn't
really talking about it at all. He wasn't talking about
making a record. Big Boy was gone solo. We've already
done a photo shoot, we've picked a single, we've put
the date on the calendar.

Speaker 4 (13:28):
We're moving forward.

Speaker 5 (13:30):
And then I get that call from Andre and he says,
you know, how much time do I have? And that
was the first time I had an indication that he
wanted to make an album. We not talked about it
at all. And I told him three weeks and I
just remember him saying okay, and he hung up.

Speaker 1 (13:50):
He was probably done already.

Speaker 5 (13:54):
All I remember is that on the night that we
had to like turn the album in for parts so
we can manufacture. Andre has studios going everywhere, He had
mastering going on, He had a couple of mixed rooms
going on, he had, He had an ensemble of studios
going to make the deadline. He was working his ass off.

(14:15):
I went to the studio to visit and heard some
of the material, but he finished it and sat down
and played it for me, and I was I could
not believe what I was hearing man, and and he
played me hey, y'all, and I was like, oh my god.

(14:36):
And I didn't try to say well, I didn't try
to go into the like okay, yeah, this is a
smash that. That wasn't how I reacted. I was more
blown away that you actually did this in three weeks.
And I felt like you did, Like you must have
had this. There's no way to do this in three weeks.

Speaker 1 (14:53):
Yeah. Has a theory though.

Speaker 3 (14:56):
When Pete Rock was telling the story of how he
made public, Getnay shut him down in ten minutes, and
one of y'all said, like because of the pressure, Like
he didn't have time to overthink it.

Speaker 7 (15:07):
You're not thinking it, You're just doing Yeah. That's also Quincy.
He talks about the alpha state, like he talks about
that just recording.

Speaker 1 (15:16):
Rolysis through analysis.

Speaker 7 (15:17):
Yea, yeah, just going you're not thinking about it, you're
just creating.

Speaker 3 (15:21):
Right, you will presented with the scenario twice, and I
always wanted to know how far did TLC get And
going with that initial thing where I believe Lisa suggested
all three of us should make solo records and.

Speaker 4 (15:40):
Oh, not very far.

Speaker 5 (15:42):
Okay, honestly, not very far at all, because Tea Boys
have made a couple of solo songs that for a
soundtrack I could have. Remember, the soundtrack is to Touch
Myself record, I Touched.

Speaker 4 (15:56):
Myself, That's the song. I remember that.

Speaker 1 (15:59):
I was thinking about the that rug wrecks thing, but no,
that was that.

Speaker 4 (16:03):
Would have been after.

Speaker 5 (16:04):
But so she did it, and it was pretty clear
to me that it was the ensemble that was the magic, right.

Speaker 4 (16:12):
And I love t bos like I mean, I loved
all of them.

Speaker 5 (16:15):
But I had a particular love for her style, that
raspy voice, her kind of her. She kind of approached
it like a guy. She was the only girl I've
seen approach it like a guy. But but and I
just I thought she was so dope. But it was
the ensemble that was the real winner there. And then
Lisa made a solo album before she passed away, made

(16:38):
she rest in peace.

Speaker 4 (16:39):
I miss her so much.

Speaker 5 (16:41):
She made a solo album, and I I wasn't blown
away by it. I didn't think it was incredible at all,
you know, and it was, and it was. It was
the kind of music I should I should have loved
it if it were good. It wasn't like side of
my thing, the way I sort of described Goodie Mob

(17:03):
as outside of my thing. So I got to defer
to them. This wasn't outside of my sweet spot. But
I just didn't think it was great. And Chili never
actually tried to make a solo record that I can
remember until many many years later, So that one didn't
get that one didn't go very far.

Speaker 7 (17:21):
How did you balance, you know, a record like crazy
Sexy Cool, where it's on your label but you're also
writing and producing. I didn't write, you know, you didn't
do baby Face together.

Speaker 5 (17:33):
That was when that was the last time that I
was a writer producer was seven whole days, Tony Braxton.

Speaker 4 (17:42):
It was the last time.

Speaker 5 (17:44):
And after and I did and then I did a
song that never made never started, Light of a Day
with Elton John that Elton called and asked me to produce, right,
and it was for a a Curtis Mayfield tribute record.
Wasn't commercial at all.

Speaker 6 (18:01):
Was spending time in Atlanta. For a minute, I was like,
were you the reason time a lot?

Speaker 7 (18:05):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (18:06):
But I stopped.

Speaker 5 (18:07):
I stopped, and Kenny and I stopped working together, and
I started spending too much time on the phone. I
was transitioning into being an executive.

Speaker 4 (18:17):
I was.

Speaker 5 (18:18):
I was learning how to how independent promotion worked. I
was learning how marketing worked. And I was so intrigued
with the stuff I didn't know. And people were coming
in and telling me about like Janet Jackson's marketing plan.
I was like, what's a marketing plan? So I became
curious about everything, and and I was hearing words like
they shipped a hundred thousand?

Speaker 4 (18:39):
What's that mean?

Speaker 7 (18:39):
Shiped a hundred thousand?

Speaker 5 (18:40):
I just became curious about the business. I think I
sort of fell out of love with producing and writing.
And I was never a great writer. Kenny was a
great writer. I was a good producer, but Kenny was
a great writer. And I was a collaborator, and I
filled in some blanks and had some concepts here and there,
but he was a great writer. So it was easy

(19:02):
to sort of step back because I didn't consider myself
great at it.

Speaker 4 (19:05):
In the first place, I felt I felt very lucky.

Speaker 7 (19:14):
So if the label were was that primarily you running
the label and Face just doing the music or was
he involved on the label side as well?

Speaker 5 (19:24):
Now I think if you ask him he would say
that He's always said that the label.

Speaker 4 (19:29):
Was kind of my thing.

Speaker 5 (19:31):
Because I liked the idea of signing talent and doing
all that stuff, you know, and picking songs and you know.

Speaker 7 (19:37):
So for so for a record like a crazy sexy
cool where you know, Babyface is doing like a digging
on you or whatever.

Speaker 4 (19:44):
Right, yes, is.

Speaker 7 (19:45):
There no conflict of ventures.

Speaker 5 (19:47):
I actually had all of the producers competing and they
didn't really know it. Like I had Dallas working on
it first he was the architect. Then I go play
it for Jermaine Dupre and be like, I know you
can beat this, and then I and then you know,

(20:07):
then Kenny is competitive. You don't have to you don't
have to put a battery in Kenny's back. He's so competitive.
So he sent his songs in and then I went
to Rico way last and said here's what everybody else
gave me, what you got and he came over with waterfalls.

Speaker 1 (20:22):
Wow.

Speaker 4 (20:25):
So according to according to.

Speaker 5 (20:30):
Executives at Arista outside of Outcast, they considered crazy sexy
cool my first time as an A and R executive.
That I wasn't the writer, I wasn't the producer. Uh,
and that was that's and if it was my first
I didn't see it that way. But if it was,

(20:50):
I did okay.

Speaker 3 (20:52):
With with no input from Clive at all, Like, hey.

Speaker 5 (20:57):
Clive, not Once it was done, Clive had opinions about
the singles and uh, and we had you know, Creep
was the first single. I love Creep by the way,
man off. So we shot a video for Creep. Wasn't
very good.

Speaker 4 (21:13):
I'm damn. So we shot a second video for Creep.
Oh again, wasn't very good. I'm like, fuck, no trouble. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (21:20):
We shot two videos and they weren't good that the
world never saw them, and so I was embarrassed.

Speaker 4 (21:27):
So I switched singles. I said Creeps no longer.

Speaker 5 (21:30):
The single we're gonna go with this song called kick
Your Game that your MANE d pre did. Clive was
likeld hold it, hold on, why are changing?

Speaker 4 (21:38):
What is this?

Speaker 1 (21:39):
What's behind this? You have to explain, right.

Speaker 5 (21:42):
And Dallas Austin called like, yo, I know you're not
like not putting my single out like he knew he
had a great record, and so I had to come
clean and say, well, truth be told, like I made
two horrible videos.

Speaker 4 (21:52):
And I'm just too embarrassed to tell everybody. So Clive says,
get it right. He said, get it right.

Speaker 5 (21:58):
So I'm with Diddy one day at the at the
Helmsley Palace hotel in New York.

Speaker 4 (22:04):
I'm sitting with Diddy.

Speaker 5 (22:06):
I play him the TC video that's not good, and
he looks at me.

Speaker 4 (22:11):
It's like, oh my god, like.

Speaker 5 (22:13):
This is horrible, and he does not make me feel
any better about it. Right while I'm showing him the
video on one television because I used to have with
this road case that I carried around with speakers and
monitor and every cord like office in a case.

Speaker 4 (22:28):
I was extra.

Speaker 5 (22:30):
While I'm playing it for him on the television, there's
a video with InVogue and Salt and pepper Coat.

Speaker 4 (22:38):
What a man?

Speaker 6 (22:38):
What a man?

Speaker 4 (22:40):
And I look at that video. It looks way better
than our video. I'm like, who directed that is you? Roston? Yeah?

Speaker 5 (22:47):
So I called Matthew Rosston and I asked him to
do creep and we got it right, the third time.

Speaker 4 (22:54):
But we threw two videos away to get to the
good one.

Speaker 1 (22:56):
I will do anything to find those original videos.

Speaker 6 (22:59):
In a situation like that, though, when when TLC got
to repay the money back, do they gotta pay for
all three of those versions or do they just pay
for the one that made it.

Speaker 4 (23:08):
Let's look at it like this. You sell ten million albums.

Speaker 6 (23:12):
Okay, the.

Speaker 4 (23:18):
Two I don't know.

Speaker 1 (23:20):
I love it.

Speaker 6 (23:21):
That's all I wanted to hear.

Speaker 1 (23:22):
That's all I got because I know, you know what.

Speaker 4 (23:27):
Went on to make the great record. Trying to make
the great video. I'm spending people's money and not.

Speaker 3 (23:32):
Real I'm even with anger because to sit in the
geff and offices and be told your videos are one
and done, like there is no going back. I can't
believe that. I'm hearing stories.

Speaker 1 (23:44):
Of we didn't think video. We'll take it back, and.

Speaker 3 (23:48):
Then we'll take it back again, and then we take
it back. I hear Mariah made four videos for Vision
of Love, and I'm like.

Speaker 7 (23:54):
That's a very old school thing, though, man, that's our.

Speaker 1 (23:58):
Label convinced us that, like because we hated our videos and.

Speaker 4 (24:04):
You couldn't do anything about it.

Speaker 1 (24:06):
Yeah, like you were stuck either video or no video, Like,
oh my god.

Speaker 4 (24:12):
Videos, weren't you memorable?

Speaker 3 (24:14):
That's why I hate making videos that being mean to
you are not too memorable.

Speaker 7 (24:22):
That's mean.

Speaker 6 (24:25):
The reason that I am here is because I'm the
roots largest fan, so I can say a couple of
truthful things.

Speaker 4 (24:29):
I'm here.

Speaker 3 (24:31):
Yeah, I'm neither not bothered either way.

Speaker 1 (24:35):
So okay.

Speaker 3 (24:36):
I was always curious the call the night that left
eye burnt the house down, like, were you worried?

Speaker 1 (24:43):
Not worried about stopping the bag?

Speaker 4 (24:46):
But it was morning. First of all, it was early morning.

Speaker 1 (24:51):
Oh wow, it was early we were We lived in
the same night time crime, not a day.

Speaker 5 (24:56):
No, we lived in the same subdivision. We both lived
in Country of the South. My housekeeper at the time
was taking my son, Aaron. She was taking him to school.
He was in the kindergarten all right, or maybe preschool.
But and she called. I want to say, I don't

(25:17):
know if Pebbles was not home or I don't know.
For whatever reason, I answered the phone. She said, I
just drove by Lisa house is on fire. So I
look outside, I see helicopters from me. I'm like, oh shit,
So I just start trying to find Lisa. I just
start trying to find her and I found her right

(25:38):
I called every number I had, everybody I knew, and
I found her and she said she was okay. She
said she didn't get hurt. She was okay, and she
told me it wasn't on purpose, it was an accident.
And I immediately went to protect her. And I have
friends in the police force there, Like the chief of

(25:58):
police was a friend, and I just asked him, like,
can you just help me to protect her, like I
don't want her to be arrested, I don't want anything
to happen.

Speaker 4 (26:07):
So he helped me.

Speaker 5 (26:08):
We gave her an entire floor at the Swiss hotel
and bucket and with police no one could get on
the floor and she stayed there until she had to
go to court for it and then you know, but yeah,
I didn't think about anything except her safety.

Speaker 3 (26:27):
Okay, ninety four ninety five, especially ninety six ninety seven,
it's probably one of the most tumultuous times in black
sec Yes, and you know, all right, The thing is
is that we lived in Europe during this time period,

(26:48):
so we really were sort of out of the literal crossfire.

Speaker 4 (26:52):
You lived in Europe at that time.

Speaker 3 (26:54):
We we The shortest story is that basically we realized
Richard Nichols was intuitive enough to the day that God
Rest his soul, Kurt Kobain committed suicide. Rich said, the
label's gonna drop us because by this point Aerosmith that

(27:14):
went to Sony Guns n' Roses wasn't coming up with
another album, and now Nirvana's gone, and literally, like those
three Acts and all the billions that they made enable
geffen'da have a black department, and we were there first
acts and rich sort of have the spidery sense that
everybody's going to get the Acts, so we better just

(27:35):
grab our publishing money, run to Europe, get a flat
and then just become like the black version of the commitments,
like get a tour bus and just tour all over Europe.
So we just lived there for like three years straight working,
so we were really we hadn't met none of our peers,
none of that stuff, like we come back to record

(27:57):
new albums, see our families. But for the most part
of like six months touring in Europe and spot dates
like all over the United States touring. But for the
most part we had missed a lot of the stories
that we heard between like what was the trouble brewing

(28:18):
between like executives and you just knew, you knew how
toxic that environment was, how frightening was it being a
black executive?

Speaker 1 (28:28):
And more important, how did you avoid.

Speaker 3 (28:31):
Getting sucked into just the toxic mix of it all
where beef is now like a regular thing between executives.

Speaker 5 (28:42):
You know, Yeah, that's a great question. And I have
to tell you, like, I was really concerned. I was
really concerned about it. And because I was, I was
very close to Puffy, right, and I helped start Bad Way,
you know, I helped helped get him the deal for

(29:02):
Bad Boy, and very proud of that, by the way,
because I actually wanted him to be an A and
R guy at LA face And after one meeting, I
realized that this is this is nobody's employee.

Speaker 4 (29:13):
This guy's this guy special, you know. Uh.

Speaker 5 (29:17):
And yeah, I was concerned about it, man, because I
felt I felt like Atlanta wasn't the East or the West,
so we were kind of we weren't viewed as the
competition for either the East or the West, right, whatever
we were doing in Atlanta, even though like we were,
we were we were having hits.

Speaker 4 (29:37):
But culturally, the impact of the West Coast was.

Speaker 5 (29:43):
Really huge, right with Snoop and Dray and Park and
all that, and then the Bad Boy on the East Coast.
Those things were like very front facing, and what we
did at La Face wasn't as front facing like our
artists were. But Kenny and I weren't like that.

Speaker 4 (29:58):
We weren't. There was no change, no, you know, we
weren't like that.

Speaker 3 (30:01):
You know so, But I can only imagine that the
more success you got, the more it puts you out
front to become sucked into that because I don't think
I don't think that there would be a bad Boy
death row thing if Puffy were releasing records produced by me.
I mean not to be self deprecating, but I'm just

(30:22):
saying that obviously there's a competition thing on what label's
gonna wind up on top, and you're actually selling more
units than both those labels, at least for.

Speaker 1 (30:34):
Their artists alive, right, right, right, I mean you could
have been an easy target.

Speaker 5 (30:40):
I thought I was avoiding it. Man, It's best I could,
and I knew everybody.

Speaker 1 (30:44):
I mean, relationships with Sugar and you have relationship with Ruffy.

Speaker 5 (30:48):
And yes, yes, And I didn't know. I did not
know Biggie and I did not know Tupac, right, I never.
I can't say I knew either of them. I probably
had one handshake with each person and in a sort
of passing, but I didn't know them. And yeah, so

(31:08):
I have. I tried hard, and I won't kid you.
I am nobody's tough guy. I tried desperately to avoid
ever being in the room.

Speaker 4 (31:17):
I wouldn't even go to.

Speaker 1 (31:19):
Would you go to Jack the Rappers and all those
things before?

Speaker 4 (31:22):
I would? But there was important?

Speaker 1 (31:25):
Was that important to go to or was that just
a vanity thing?

Speaker 4 (31:28):
You know what?

Speaker 5 (31:28):
It was important because all the DJs were there, like
all the dj and at that time, DJs could make
a decision about which records they played right before before
the conglomerates took over. You know, DJ's had some say
they had to say and what they played.

Speaker 4 (31:42):
And so we did.

Speaker 5 (31:44):
And all of the labels competitors were there. You got
a chance to see what the other label had, what
they had coming, and if you needed to go back
and do better or find another song or find another act.
So and it was it was good camaraderie. It was
really good until it wasn't. When it got bad, it

(32:05):
got bad, and that's when I stopped going, you know.
But I just tried to avoid it, man, and just
stayed to myself as much as I could, and trying
to sort of diminish my presence. As crazy as that sound, right,
I didn't want to be you know. We didn't even

(32:25):
have photo we didn't take pictures of nothing. We just
stayed in the background as much as we could.

Speaker 3 (32:30):
Was there an act that you kind of purposely passed
on signing just because like, uh, this might cause smoke
for the label.

Speaker 4 (32:39):
Or probably like I don't remember a name.

Speaker 5 (32:43):
But I didn't actively look for artists in New York
and LA.

Speaker 4 (32:49):
I didn't.

Speaker 5 (32:50):
I really didn't. I didn't. I ain't even gonna lie, right.
I did not actively look. And so I was getting
chatt at newgou Tennessee, Atlanta, Georgia.

Speaker 4 (32:59):
You know you know what I mean, Des Moines, Iowa.

Speaker 7 (33:03):
I was.

Speaker 3 (33:05):
Speaking of chattan New good Tennessee. Can we finally settle
this once and for all?

Speaker 1 (33:10):
Can you please tell us.

Speaker 5 (33:16):
No I saw I saw, I saw what I saw
What Tevin said I never had to say in that
because Kenny wrote that song and he produced it on
Tevin Campbell and that was it. Like there was never
like a conversation like should we give it the Usher
or should I.

Speaker 4 (33:32):
There was never a conversation.

Speaker 5 (33:33):
Ken and I were not working as writer producer partners
at that moment. That that he did completely on his
own and gave it to Tevin, Tevin saying the hell
out of it, uh, and it worked.

Speaker 4 (33:47):
So there there was never any back and forth.

Speaker 3 (33:50):
So you never had a sick, griffy moment where like
The Face gave a song to someone that you know
you could have used that song for your artist, and
it's like, yo, come.

Speaker 1 (34:05):
On dog, like I could have used that. I asked
you last week if you had something for TLC, and
you said.

Speaker 4 (34:10):
No, no, No. It wasn't really like that. And I
was also very.

Speaker 5 (34:17):
Clear about Kenny's ambitions as a writer, right Kenny wanted
the greatest artists possible to sing his songs.

Speaker 4 (34:24):
And it wasn't about for him.

Speaker 5 (34:26):
It was never about whether it was on the Face
or whether it was on Arista or Epic or He
never thought about it that way. He thought about it
as like the song girlfriend that Pebbles got the reason
she got it is because he thought her voice was
the right voice for the song. It was originally for
Vanessa Williams right, and he thought, he said, it's not

(34:49):
right for Vanessa because he listened to as a as
a musician, as an artist, as a writer, producer, he
listened to the voices and he made his decisions based
on the voices.

Speaker 4 (34:59):
And how do you argue with that?

Speaker 3 (35:00):
There's definitely a big difference between the pink that signed
to Lea Face first few records and the artists that
she morphed into. So how what what's the what's the
conversation and the metamorphoses where.

Speaker 1 (35:18):
You know, there's a beginning.

Speaker 3 (35:20):
And then there's definitely a separation from what she was
and you were You're part of that process, So like, yes,
at what point do you realize maybe I should loosen
the strings somewhat and see where they go with it?

Speaker 4 (35:34):
Right?

Speaker 5 (35:35):
So first album, she did that album as a member
of the group Choice, and then they disbanded and we
continued the process, and some of the songs that were
made for Choice she kept them. But we struggled in
the beginning. We really struggled because she was still growing.
She was very young and she was still finding herself,

(35:57):
finding her style, and so we the first album we
did the best we could do right. It was called
Can't Take Me Home. Loved her concepts, loved her how
she thought about it, and I loved her voice and
her energy. She was incredible musically. It was a little
bit undefined and all over the place when it got
so but we had We had a hit with with

(36:21):
there You Go and Uh, and she had a second
hit called most Girls, not as big a hit, but
it did really well. So when it came to her
second album, she hooked up with Dallas Austin, her and
KP basically oversaw it, and then she hooked up with
Linda Perry. And when she first brought it to me,

(36:44):
I was like, wait a minute, you're abandoning like the
urban thing that you started on your first album. Be
sure about that. And she was like, yeah, I'm not
trying to repeat that. I'm onto something really special. And
I was like, okay, I don't know. I was like,

(37:05):
I'll tell you what, if you feel passionately about it,
I'm gonna step back do your thing right.

Speaker 4 (37:11):
And my exact words to her was because I was
I got.

Speaker 5 (37:15):
This from Dick Griffy. I said, I'm gonna give you
an opportunity to fail.

Speaker 7 (37:20):
Yourself.

Speaker 5 (37:20):
Okay, yeah, I said that, and I ain't really know
what it meant, but I said it because Dick Griffy
said it anyway, And so she did it. She came
back and she played me get the Party started, eighteen Wheeler,
and she played me all those songs, and I was like,
oh my.

Speaker 4 (37:38):
God, this girl's made up.

Speaker 5 (37:39):
She made a real album and we went to work
her throw up with Dave Myers. They made a great
video and she was off to the races after that.
When it came to her third album, I wasn't involved
at all. I was involved at all. She got a

(38:00):
new manager, Roger Davis, very famous manager who also mat
just TEENA Turner. Yeah, Roger Davis, Roger Davies. So her
and Roger kind of they did it all and just
turned it in like. I wasn't involved at all. And
when it was done, I didn't think it was particularly good, honestly,
and I left the company right as it was time

(38:21):
to release it. So and it didn't do that great.

Speaker 3 (38:25):
I don't understand when La Face just amalgamates into Arista,
but do I recall when you actually went back to school.

Speaker 1 (38:37):
I did because Swizz did the same thing, Like what
is this?

Speaker 5 (38:41):
So what happened is I got contacted by the Birtlesman,
the company that owned the aristag BMG. They had a BMG,
visited me, came to Atlanta, visited me. This was early too, man,
This was like probably ninety four, and that early on

(39:02):
they said we would like to We want you to
prep yourself because at some point we want you to
take over aris to records. And I was like, yeah, right,
that's what I thought to my I don't believe it.
Ninety four Okay, So a couple of years ago by

(39:22):
and they call again and instead this time they don't
say aris that. They said, we would like for you
to go back to school. We would like you to
go to school. We can get you enrolled in a
program at Harvard. You'll have to go and stay on campus.
You got to stay for ten weeks. You cannot run
the company. You can't talk to your artists, you can't

(39:43):
talk to your executives.

Speaker 4 (39:44):
You can talk to your.

Speaker 5 (39:45):
Family, but we need you on the campus and we
need you to put in fifty to sixty hours a
week doing case studies and living on the campus and
really studying international business.

Speaker 1 (40:00):
Okay, it's like a jail sentence.

Speaker 5 (40:03):
I liked the idea of it because I didn't go
to college, and I regretted not going to college because
I opted to be a musician. I opted to go
on the road that was college to me. So I
liked this idea. So I went and I stayed there
for my ten weeks and it was really hard, because
it was really really hard. So I got kids on

(40:25):
the campus to tutor me and helped me get through it.
And I made friends with other people in that were
in my in my dorm, so it was like the
students were teaching each other.

Speaker 3 (40:36):
So you really had to go to Harvard and stay
at Harvard. And do you had to do that?

Speaker 4 (40:41):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (40:41):
Yeah, I lived on campus and I'm a and at
this point, like i'm a I live in Atlanta, I'm
I'm I'm a musician's half musician, half executive. You know,
I'm a hybrid. I'm a very weird hybrid. I don't
know how to dress, I don't know how to walk,
I don't know how to talk.

Speaker 4 (40:58):
I don't know which handshake do you. I'm like completely confused.

Speaker 5 (41:01):
I'm gonna fish out of water in the greatest institution
in the world apparently, right.

Speaker 4 (41:06):
Uh So it was very intimidating. Everybody seemed so smart.

Speaker 5 (41:11):
I mean the accents you know when you hear when
you hear when you hear guys with Indian accent talking
about ebitda, it sounds smarter. You know, guys from the UK,
they always sound smarter than we do, right, right, So
it's just all very intimidating.

Speaker 4 (41:27):
And then I found my group.

Speaker 5 (41:28):
Right around halfway point, I started to find my groove
and and and figured it out. And at the end
of it, I graduated, And I didn't know if I
would What were.

Speaker 7 (41:39):
Some of the things you learned from that program? Like
how did that?

Speaker 4 (41:42):
We really studied businesses.

Speaker 5 (41:44):
We studied things like things that you would love, like
we studied decisions that Phil.

Speaker 4 (41:50):
Nightmaye to make Nike a success.

Speaker 5 (41:52):
We discovered you know, things like that, like and we
would take it in steps, like they would present us
a case.

Speaker 4 (41:59):
They would show us the dilemma or where.

Speaker 5 (42:01):
The company could go one way or another, and then
they would test us basically basically like what decision would
you make here? And then we would go to the
next sort of chapter of the story. And it was
just basically case studies, studying each person's case not only
in entertainment but or or in apparel, but everything from

(42:24):
public utilities to you know, hospital to grocery stores to automotive,
Toyota to Disney. We'd study we studied businesses.

Speaker 3 (42:35):
There's of course a famous book out now called the
Harvard Report where they first did a case study of
Clive Davis, Yes, embracing black music. Were they still using
that book as.

Speaker 4 (42:49):
A No, we never got there.

Speaker 5 (42:52):
But they have so many like they collect case They
collect case studies from all over the world, and each
professor would let the cases that he wants to use
in UH, in his classrooms. But there's no there's no
set stories. I knew about the Clive. They actually did
one with me about UH. It was like the study

(43:14):
of black music, right, and.

Speaker 4 (43:19):
They did. I know a lot of people that they've
actually done the reports.

Speaker 5 (43:22):
They don't publish them all, they don't actually use them all,
but they just basically collect information and and and they
teach it and and it's good. The way we went
about it, it was intimidating at first, UH, until I
got my groove and realized that there were things I
knew that some of the people in that they didn't know.

Speaker 4 (43:41):
Once I got that confidence, I was like, okay.

Speaker 7 (43:44):
Because they studying business that you've been running on.

Speaker 1 (43:46):
Yes, okay, I have one confession's question.

Speaker 3 (43:54):
I kind of consider Confessions the end of the parentheses
of whatever.

Speaker 1 (44:03):
I mean.

Speaker 3 (44:03):
I really can't tell, Like what the first mega album
maybe Carol King's Tapestry. It was like one of the
first mega selling records, but you know us there's Confessions
comes at a time when streaming culture is about to
confuse the whole entire industry, where buying a tangible record

(44:25):
is a vote. So this is kind of a part
one and part two thing. When when Confessions was said
and done, did you realize then that there will never
be another mega selling album of this nature again in
the music business.

Speaker 4 (44:44):
Wow? No, I ain't thinking that's incredible that you should
say that.

Speaker 1 (44:49):
But no, Confessions is the like after that.

Speaker 4 (44:53):
Then that's the last. That's the last, like diamond album.

Speaker 3 (44:56):
Yes, literally, because after that streaming comes in ruins it.
But I was asking that only because of his Atlanta roots.
I always wanted to ask a CEO at least what
their feelings of what streaming was threatening to be, and
of course you know there there's the napster situation that

(45:17):
sort of confused people and have them in their feelings
and then accepting iTunes and whatnot, even down to DJ
Drama's arrest, Like, could you talk about what the what
the at least the scary environment for what music was
about to become?

Speaker 1 (45:36):
Now somehow you managed.

Speaker 5 (45:38):
To There was a piece in the between that which
was downloads, and downloads, while they weren't physical, were still
a la carte.

Speaker 4 (45:47):
There was still like sales.

Speaker 5 (45:49):
So the next the next chapter of successes were measured
through downloads, right, some physical not that much, you know,
but CDs were dwindling badly, Vinyl was completely out of
out of the count, uh, and downloads with a thing,
so we still had.

Speaker 3 (46:09):
But as president, did you feel the pressure that I
got to figure out something quick? Like all my record
all my label, like my artists went from ten million
to now to sell three million is an.

Speaker 1 (46:22):
Achievement, although it's not your fault per se, just right, right?

Speaker 3 (46:26):
Yeah, how are you dealing with that as a CEO
like and as an executive?

Speaker 5 (46:31):
Yeah, the idea was just to not bottom out the
idea was, yes, the sales are dwindling, and it's across
the board. It's not one company that's dwind it's not
one artist that's that sales are dwindling. The entire industry
is going down the tube. Napster's introduced the download, so
we're fighting piracy and at a rate that we've never

(46:53):
had to fight piracy, at least that we know of.
So with that being the reality, it was just get
the best artists and the best records you can and
do the best you can. And I never really measured
it against Like. I didn't even know that fact.

Speaker 4 (47:10):
I didn't know that Confessions Like was maybe the last diamond.
I didn't even know that.

Speaker 1 (47:14):
Confessions and speaker Box were the last of the movie.

Speaker 5 (47:17):
I didn't even realize that, So I didn't I didn't,
in my mind, compete with it.

Speaker 4 (47:22):
I didn't think of it that way.

Speaker 5 (47:23):
I thought of it more as meaningful bodies of work,
which I felt Kanye made as an example right, And
I was really proud of everything for the time I
was around him. I was proud of those records and
I felt that they were I felt they measured up
to whatever we did at with Outcasts, whatever we did

(47:44):
with Usher, And I also had like Mariah Carey's Emancipation
of Me Me Right, and.

Speaker 4 (47:51):
That felt like the for me, that felt.

Speaker 5 (47:53):
Like the follow up to Confessions Right, some of the
same kind of sounding records.

Speaker 4 (47:59):
That's how I looked at it.

Speaker 5 (48:00):
But I didn't look at the sales, and I didn't
look at the challenge that we had as an industry
as a threat.

Speaker 4 (48:06):
I looked at it more as, yes, we need to
figure this out.

Speaker 3 (48:09):
And once you come to death Jam, like you kind
of have to start all over again, Like what is
it to meet your especially coming from where they came
from as far as like the the era of Julie
and and le or yeah, like to come in there
and to be the new guy, like was it.

Speaker 1 (48:31):
Eyes?

Speaker 5 (48:31):
And oh my god, man, it was crazy? It was
It was crazy. It was nice to you crazy. Wasn't
there when I got there? Okay, she came once once
Jay was president, right, but man, it was it was
scary because it was a real. First of all, I
didn't realize. Here's the thing about death Jam, Like, if

(48:52):
you're part of that culture, you realize how important that
culture is. If you're not a part of it, you
don't really know, so it's crazy as this sound. I
didn't know that it was what it was like. It
wasn't that to us in Atlanta. I mean, it was
a successful company. It was big. We respected. We knew Russell,
we knew Rick Rubin, we knew le Ric Cohen, we
knew Chris Leidy, we knew cool j.

Speaker 4 (49:14):
We knew it.

Speaker 5 (49:15):
But we didn't think of it as the institution that
it was.

Speaker 4 (49:21):
We didn't see it that way.

Speaker 5 (49:23):
So when I walked in, I was shocked by I
was shocked by it all.

Speaker 4 (49:27):
I was shocked by.

Speaker 5 (49:29):
The voice of the community and their opinions about anything
that happened. I didn't realize that theft jam belonged to
the streets. It belonged to the people, like you know
it funk Master Flex had to say, and every I
mean it's making up named anybody right, everybody had a
say in it. So when I came in as a
new chairman of the company, coming from my background, I

(49:52):
was immediately made to feel uncomfortable. Right executives were taking
out articles in the newspaper and magazine talking about how
I wasn't fit for it and how you know, how
would I know how to go talk to DMX like
you know it was and I felt it. I really did.

(50:12):
I felt it. And I didn't feel welcome at all.
And I loved Julie. I think she's one of the
most remarkable executives in the world. I love Kevin. I
think he's one of the most remarkable executives in the world.
Nither of them made me feel welcome. And and oh wait.

Speaker 3 (50:29):
So they Kevin and Julie were still there when you came.
Oh I kind of thought they all left together.

Speaker 5 (50:35):
Yeah, they they were there when I got there, only
le Or had left. And I didn't feel very welcome, right,
And I didn't feel welcome.

Speaker 4 (50:45):
By the artist either. The artists at that time.

Speaker 5 (50:48):
You know, I loved them, right method Man, Redman, ghost Face, Ello,
cool J the only one, and jay Z was like
on semi Retireronment Rockefeller. And the artist that embraced me
was Kanye West. Wow, that was the one that embraced me.

Speaker 7 (51:09):
Right.

Speaker 1 (51:09):
That helps.

Speaker 4 (51:10):
That helped a lot.

Speaker 5 (51:11):
And this is early Kanye before he released his first
album right, although it was already done and slated to
be released when I came to the company. But I
met him and he said to me, because you understand outcasts,
you'll probably understand me. And that's how that was the
first conversation we ever had.

Speaker 4 (51:30):
And I locked in with him.

Speaker 5 (51:33):
And then Mariah called, and because her and I wanted
to work together for years, I tried to sign her
at Ariston when she first left Sony and so I
had Mariah embracing me, but no one else. So Mariah says,
I'm on the phone with Mariah. This is really good,
and she says, you know how you can put the

(51:54):
fire out? I was like, how she said, make Jay.

Speaker 4 (51:57):
Z the president? Oh man, No, that's Mariah. You don't
like that idea?

Speaker 6 (52:04):
No, Well, are you asking the wrong person?

Speaker 1 (52:06):
I'm kind of overprotective.

Speaker 4 (52:08):
I mean I was. I was way overprotective of the ruse.

Speaker 6 (52:10):
I had a whole conversation with Jay on the radio
about the way he was handling his presidency and the
way he was handling all the Philadelphia acts at the time.

Speaker 4 (52:17):
So no, as a.

Speaker 6 (52:17):
Radio person and for the Philadelphia person, I was not
feeling that. But the artist, he's.

Speaker 5 (52:22):
Great, Oh yeah, okay, anyway, But but you know what
when I when I so Mariah put the idea in
my head, I presented it to Jay didn't get an
answer right away. Eventually we were able to come to
terms and he became the president of Death Jam and
at that point that made the peace and everybody left me.

Speaker 6 (52:45):
Alone and Method but Method, man, I wasn't happy those face.

Speaker 3 (52:50):
Wasn't that's that's something I did not know.

Speaker 1 (52:55):
Wow.

Speaker 5 (52:56):
Yeah, And a lot of the artists, like I met
a few artists that that have said to me that
they because it's two way street. When you become you're
the head of a label and you come in to
an established company, you're auditioning for them. It's not the
other way around. It's not the artists need to.

Speaker 4 (53:15):
Prove to you.

Speaker 7 (53:15):
You need to prove to the artists, right.

Speaker 5 (53:18):
And many of the artists were like, we're not even
gonna give you a chance because A we think you
might be r and b B we think you pop
either way, we don't think you're hip hop, so I
might be coming to your office, right. So so that
was a very difficult thing.

Speaker 4 (53:33):
And I was like, yo, okay, I hear y'all.

Speaker 5 (53:35):
I still have the biggest selling hip hop album of
all time.

Speaker 4 (53:38):
Do I get a do I get do I get
a meeting?

Speaker 5 (53:43):
Because you ain't beat to speaker box a lot below yet,
so can I at least get a meeting.

Speaker 1 (53:49):
I can't even believe that you would have to beg
for a meeting.

Speaker 4 (53:53):
I was not embraced.

Speaker 5 (53:54):
It's okay though, Like I'm not saying that, Like I
I was cool.

Speaker 4 (53:57):
Uh, And I just embraced those that embraced me. We
and we ended up.

Speaker 5 (54:01):
We created a different kind of label as Chris Light
he made he rest in peace.

Speaker 4 (54:06):
I loved him. He said, this is a face jam.
This is not deaf jam.

Speaker 3 (54:14):
One very unusual deaf jam signee at the time that
I considered, can you talk about what it took to
market and break Justin Bieber?

Speaker 4 (54:24):
Oh?

Speaker 5 (54:25):
Yes, So I love that. That was a that was
that was a gift from Usher.

Speaker 4 (54:31):
Right. Usher came in, he said, I have a gift
for you. He came in. I thought he was gonna
bring me cigars or something. I love the story. I
love the story. Yes, I love it. That was a gift.

Speaker 5 (54:43):
Yes, And he walks in with fourteen year old Justin Bieber.
Justin cames in, comes in, and he's beating on the table, right,
and he's playing the piano, he's playing the guitar, and
he's singing, he's jumping around, he's talking, he's a mile
a minute, and I'm just staring at him like this star,
Like I mean, I got my star hat on. I'm like,

(55:05):
this is a this dude, this is star. I'm telling
you guys. I thought I I ain't gonna lie. I
thought I met Elvis.

Speaker 1 (55:13):
Wow.

Speaker 5 (55:15):
I seriously, I was like this dude right here. Because
the girls all talked about how pretty his face was.
Not not pretty like in a negative way, but in
a way that they loved him right. All the girls
loved him. And then artists that not all artists, but
many artists like kind of liked him. And so we

(55:36):
went about making the record, and the first record with strategy.
You want to do strategically. I have this theory that
Blue Eyed Soul is the music that has the greatest
opportunity for global success. That's that's my opinion. So we
put him on black radio first thing out, put him

(55:57):
on V one o three and it was wow. That's
where it started. He had a song called one Time
Before Baby, we put we put it on V one
o three and and we that's what we did, man.

Speaker 4 (56:09):
We we went black first.

Speaker 1 (56:11):
Mm hmmm.

Speaker 5 (56:12):
And then we put it on read them and then
we crossed it over. But we wanted to we wanted
to give him, uh some black foundation. And he had
he had the check, the endorsement because of Usher and Me,
so he had real and and and Dreaming Tricky were
making his records, so he had he was covered.

Speaker 6 (56:31):
Well, he could have went the other way because wasn't
it a battle between Usher and was it justin?

Speaker 4 (56:36):
Because yes, they.

Speaker 5 (56:38):
Both wanted him, and and then and after that, uh,
then Kanye embraced him, you know, and.

Speaker 4 (56:48):
Just everyone felt like everybody else, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (56:51):
All right, I'm gonna slowly wind this down, okay, and
we I can't believe that at this point.

Speaker 1 (56:56):
Oh my god, it's like the old school here.

Speaker 7 (57:00):
We're not gonna fe.

Speaker 1 (57:01):
This might this might be three episodes.

Speaker 4 (57:03):
My sisters just smiled when you say we're gonna wind
this down.

Speaker 7 (57:06):
I've seen her.

Speaker 6 (57:06):
Walk past about three four times, like I'm not I'm
just saying, I ain't saying.

Speaker 3 (57:11):
I mean, at this rate, where you've worked at labels
and whatnot, do you believe in the theory that I
hear people say all the time, like it's going to
be the end of labels, no more labels, if it
is going to be the end of labels, what will
happen to music next? Because I do feel like something
is going to eventually give. Like I feel like this

(57:33):
this decade that we're in the twenties, everything is giving.
So should music follow suit? Are you I don't, Are
you prepare to aid in the next step of it?
Or is it sort of like, all right, I've done
my bit, I'm gonna sit out.

Speaker 5 (57:50):
I'm definitely not done. First of all, I ain't said nothing. Man,
they got to they gotta you know, they try to
take my head off. I still got my head, so sorry.
So I don't believe in that. I think that labels
have historically not been well loved, well liked, and for

(58:10):
for for the right reasons probably, but throughout time people
have not record labels do not have a great public perception,
no matter what it is, no matter you know, culturally
maybe so like people like Deaf Jam or people like
bad Boy or a Motown or whatever, right, but culturally
it may have a lot of impact, But the public

(58:31):
perception are that record companies are generally.

Speaker 4 (58:35):
Brooks, not upstanding people. Uh So, people have always wanted
to see the demise of record labels.

Speaker 5 (58:42):
I think that, And so now we live in an
era of independence, right where, And that's good in that,
and there's bad in that, right The bad in that
is that there is no barrier to entry, there's no filter.
So every thing is out, Everything is on Spotify, everything

(59:04):
is on Apple, everything is on SoundCloud, everything everything like,
there's no filter for it, right, And so now we're
leaving it to the editorial people or the music editors
to make the decisions about which songs are good enough
to be on the world's biggest playlist.

Speaker 4 (59:24):
But they're picking from sixty thousand a day. I like it.

Speaker 5 (59:28):
So I don't see that as I don't see that
as great right at all, because I like the idea
that taste makers, curators of music, passionate music people make
decisions about what they love based on their experiences, and

(59:50):
those things get a shot, not that the other things
shouldn't get a shot. But I don't like the idea
that it's a free for all, And there's a fallacy
there that you can be chance the rapper, and you
can be independent and make it all the way to
the top. But as I understand it, he's probably got
fifty like employees and a lot of money and all

(01:00:11):
kinds of stuff. That's not exactly the same thing as
being just a starving kid in Columbus, Ohio who wants
to be independent, right, That's not the.

Speaker 1 (01:00:17):
Same as he has money.

Speaker 5 (01:00:19):
So if you're a kid, if you're a fifteen year
old kid in Columbus, Ohio, and you don't have a
record label and you're told to do it on.

Speaker 4 (01:00:27):
Your own, man, you don't know what to do.

Speaker 5 (01:00:29):
You do not know what to do, right, So that
means that you're gonna put your music out. It might
get wasted, You're gonna waste a lot of time, You're
gonna get discouraged, and we might actually not see the
next star because you've been discouraged before you get an
opportunity to come out of the gate. Whereas if someone
embraces you and put their arm around you and says,

(01:00:49):
you know, I believe in you, and oh, by the way,
I'm leaving out something very important.

Speaker 4 (01:00:54):
You're you're a.

Speaker 5 (01:00:56):
Highly trained, wildly successful, massively talented musician, and you respect
people who put the time in that you put in,
whether you like their music or not like their music.
You respect the fact that all of you guys are
seasoned executives and seasoned professionals, and you respect people who do.

Speaker 4 (01:01:16):
There's something to be said for the people who are
just doing it as a hobby, who aren't serious, who
are as serious as you are, who are as talented
as you are, who are who haven't been challenged the
way you have, who have never been on stage. Right,
there's something to be said for the fact that we
need the music infrastructure as a training ground.

Speaker 5 (01:01:38):
Right, somebody needs to know what it's like. I mean,
that's so anyway, my feelings about it are. I'm very passionate.
It's not it's not actually gone. Record labels make more
money than they ever made?

Speaker 1 (01:01:53):
Is that true?

Speaker 3 (01:01:54):
Record labels make more money than they ever made? Are
truly we thought that record labels were kind of on.

Speaker 4 (01:02:03):
Yeah, No, record labels are killing it.

Speaker 5 (01:02:07):
Universal Music is worth over fifty billion dollars bro a
music company. I'm not talking about film or TV or tech.
I'm talking about music content that you created.

Speaker 6 (01:02:19):
Right, But Universal at this point owned so many properties
in that way, right, Like not it's not as many individuals.

Speaker 4 (01:02:26):
I mean, they've been they've been gobbling up labels for years.

Speaker 5 (01:02:28):
But the point is that they are making the record
labels are making an absolute fortune, Okay, an absolute fortune,
and I don't begrudge it.

Speaker 4 (01:02:39):
It's beautiful. You know.

Speaker 5 (01:02:41):
I wish I was right there getting bonuses right now,
and I'm not mad at it. But the point of
it is that the infrastructure hasn't died. It takes a
record label to say, okay, hey, little Naz that's an example,
Little Naz X. He comes out with his old Town Road,
it becomes some kind of a phenomenon independently by the
way it gets picked up by a major label. This
is an artist like him or not. This is an

(01:03:02):
artist that has a massive creative vision right and it
needs to have the kind of financial support that he
can he can get that off.

Speaker 4 (01:03:14):
He can't do that independently.

Speaker 5 (01:03:16):
Those ideas are too big, honestly, those I just those
ideas are very expensive.

Speaker 4 (01:03:21):
Otherwise we get a we get a fraction of.

Speaker 5 (01:03:23):
Who this artist could be if he wasn't signed to
Columbia Records. I'm saying that he would be a success,
but he'd be a fraction of the artist that he
could be because now he has the infrastructure.

Speaker 4 (01:03:34):
To really get it off.

Speaker 7 (01:03:35):
He's an artist that fits in that mold. I mean
for me, when I talk young artists coming up, my
thing is just if you're gonna sign to a label,
if you're gonna do that, my advice is, if you're
gonna do it, you might as well play big. You
might as well swing for the fences.

Speaker 4 (01:03:49):
Like that's the only reason to do it.

Speaker 7 (01:03:50):
That's the only reason if you just want to, if
you're just truly an independent person, not just as a label,
but just as a creator, you know what I mean,
if you just want to look, I just want to
do ship when I feel like it, put it out
when I feel like it. It's great. But a major
label is not for you, Like, that's not what that is.

Speaker 4 (01:04:08):
It's not for everybody. But to me, the game is
not for everybody.

Speaker 5 (01:04:12):
That's what I'm trying to say, is that it's not
for everybody, and it shouldn't be so easy to get in.

Speaker 4 (01:04:18):
It's hard.

Speaker 5 (01:04:19):
It takes it's harder to You can't just get in
the NBA because you like basketball, it's right.

Speaker 6 (01:04:24):
Can there be some gray in between what you're saying
and what's going on right now? Is there more gray
than your mate?

Speaker 4 (01:04:29):
Possibly? I'm open minded, that's quite possible.

Speaker 5 (01:04:33):
But what I'm but but what i'm what I am,
what I am a strong advocate of, is are you
serious about the game?

Speaker 4 (01:04:41):
Are you serious about this?

Speaker 5 (01:04:42):
Because ship I don't like the idea like this is
not this is not for hobbyists.

Speaker 4 (01:04:47):
Serious don't mean what it used to mean. Serious I know,
and that bothers me.

Speaker 6 (01:04:53):
Serious don't mean trade, reading your trades and reading all
your books that don't.

Speaker 3 (01:04:57):
But are you the last of the Mohicans? Like I
know there's you, I know there's Sylvia. I don't know
if Doug Marris is still in the game or not,
but you know, like someone else is running that. I
don't know who's running Death Jam now, but someone that.

Speaker 5 (01:05:15):
Yes, And he's really talented and and I'm happy, I'm proud.
I will support and promote and and do anything. He
is really talented. And he's about that music. He's about culture.
He's bringing African culture into the country. He's looking forward,

(01:05:35):
and he's doing it based on talent. He's doing it
based on qualification. And he's not just looking at at
data and saying I should sign this because extremely he's
looking at it and he's listening to the me.

Speaker 7 (01:05:48):
It was very much it very much reminded me. His
trajectory was very much like you in the sense that
he cool was like his face. So yeah, you know,
I mean, and then you know he came and they
brought him in run. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:06:01):
By the way, like I don't know what the roots
are exactly up to recording artists wise, if it was
me as a music curator, now, deaf Jam is the
perfect place, man.

Speaker 1 (01:06:15):
Well guess what.

Speaker 3 (01:06:17):
We you know, you know, the thing where like I
don't know the movie or the the sitcom example of
like when you think you're you're like that's your last statement,
and you like burn the house down, or like you're
the father, like and I'm leaving the family and you
leave and then you come back because you forgot your keys.

Speaker 1 (01:06:38):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (01:06:38):
We just got reminded by deaf Jam. Oh by the way,
I remember what we said, but you guys actually do.
Oh it's one more record.

Speaker 4 (01:06:46):
So it's like, I think this.

Speaker 5 (01:06:49):
Is a great thing because because I think that I
I know that he loves you. I know that he
loves the roots and understands it. And it's also possible
that he might make a suggestion or two that you
might like write about try this to try that right.

Speaker 4 (01:07:08):
I think it's that to.

Speaker 3 (01:07:09):
Me, literally all the signings I feel like are the
Rooge's grandchildren.

Speaker 1 (01:07:13):
So yes, all right, oh they are.

Speaker 5 (01:07:16):
That's what I'm trying to say. That's exactly what I'm
trying to say. Right, that one to me, you know,
as someone you didn't ask, right, that's.

Speaker 4 (01:07:28):
That works.

Speaker 1 (01:07:29):
I got no man, I know you.

Speaker 7 (01:07:32):
I just want to say this, man, you played a
very and I'm so happy we're having a chance to
had this conversation. Uh, you played a part in my
career that I'm sure you have no idea he did it.
But this is back in like two thousand and seven.
You had a group on your on the jam Player
Circle that they were thro DTP And so my man
did not poor. He hit me to do some records.

(01:07:52):
He was like, yo, man, I'm burnout. I need just
some look ideas whatever. And I was like, all right, cool, whatever.
So I just referenced a couple who got this for
him and send them off. And I ain't think that
knows of it. And so the song that I did
it was a song called paper Chaser, and I just
sang it as a reference and so the joint ended up.
I didn't find out until like later that the song
actually made the record, and so I ran into Titty

(01:08:15):
and Dollar. We was at BT boards and O seven
and uh Me and Dalla was talking. He was like,
oh my god. I was like, gonna find tape.

Speaker 4 (01:08:21):
Man.

Speaker 7 (01:08:21):
He was like, oh yo, what's up? And I'm like,
what the hell? And he said, man, the thing with
that record? He said, we sent it in and he
said we was thinking about like getting ACN on it
because Akon was going up at that time. He was like,
we was thinking about getting like a kN or somebody
went on it, he said. But l A. Reid was like, Yo,
who's the dude the singing on it? I like him
just it sounds good like that. Just keep it, you

(01:08:42):
know what I'm saying. And I just want to say
thank you so much. Really that really put uh you
really gave me just a lot of confidence and believe
I'm like, yo, this dude. I was like, Yo, that's
just thank you. Thank you so much for that.

Speaker 5 (01:08:58):
Man.

Speaker 7 (01:08:58):
That really meant a lot.

Speaker 4 (01:09:00):
Thank you. That's great. I'm so happy to hear that.
We thank you, guys, thank you, thank you.

Speaker 7 (01:09:05):
I appreciate this on behalf of every quick Thank you
for putting out splack of belly by pressure.

Speaker 1 (01:09:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:09:15):
By the way, mir you are like you like you're
the dopest dude in this business. Man like just that's
I just I really love and appreciate you. Man like you.
You just Yeah, you make me proud to be a
part of this thing. Well, I think represent us well.
And I appreciate you for not not dropping me on
my birthday.

Speaker 1 (01:09:36):
I'll never forget, I think.

Speaker 4 (01:09:37):
By the way, I don't think that's the truth, but
I'm gonna let you have it. I was trying to
get him a finished that.

Speaker 1 (01:09:44):
What that was.

Speaker 4 (01:09:44):
I don't even know how you do that.

Speaker 1 (01:09:47):
I called you on my birthday.

Speaker 4 (01:09:49):
I remember that. I remember that.

Speaker 1 (01:09:51):
But anyway, half of Bill and Sugar.

Speaker 3 (01:09:54):
Steve, sorry, Steve Week once again hogged all your questions.

Speaker 2 (01:09:58):
I've been reading my a recent episode of black Beat
Magazine the whole time.

Speaker 5 (01:10:02):
Yeah, you tap, you tapped out on your shop, Sugar,
you tapped out on me.

Speaker 4 (01:10:06):
But it's all good, all right.

Speaker 3 (01:10:07):
On the Apple Light, Ya and fant Ticcolo and the
Great La Reed. This is West Love Supreme and We'll
see you on the next go round. West Love Supreme

(01:10:27):
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