QLS Classic: Lena Waithe

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Of Course Love Supreme is a production of I Heart Radio.
This classic episode was produced by the team at Pandora.
Ladies and Gentlemen. Welcome to QLs Classic Episode eighty with
Lena Waite from April two thousand eighteen, fresh off for
Emmy victory for writing on the season, Sorry's Awesome, Master
of None, we chop it up with Lena wait about

(00:21):
life in Hollywood, starting Alice in turn to an assistant
to an actress, to creator to show runner. Her journey
still going strong. So get ready for a nice ride
and enjoy. Lena wait Ot QLs classic Frema role called Frema,

(00:47):
role called South Frema role call roll call. Her name
is Lena, Yeah, not yeah clever roll car verse. Yeah,
I don't have enow Srema roll call, so Frema Subprema

(01:11):
roll call. My name is Fonte. Yeah. My word is born. Yeah,
only Lena I acknowledge. Yeah, other than horn Suma Roba
sub Frema roll call. Her name is Lena. Yeah, let's
introduce her. Yeah, even though common Yeah, it's her exact

(01:34):
producer Roma Subrima roll call, Suprema Subprema roll call. I'm
on paid bill. Yeah. And when it's said and done. Yeah,
I'm the jack of few trades. Yeah, master of Sma.

(01:55):
Roll car some Drema, so Frema, roll call sly Em. Yeah,
up in this piece. Yeah, I love me some Lena. Yeah,
but I'm looking for de niece. Roll call Primam roll call.

(02:15):
My name is Lena. Yeah, I'm from the Shy. Yeah.
I hope I don't mess it up so I don't die,
I don't return Suprema Suma, roll call Supremo, roll call

(02:35):
Somaremo role. Yes, gentlemen, welcome to another episode of course
of Supreme. I'm your host, Quesse Love. This is Pandora. Hello,
Team Supreme. What hey? Chatting with Sugar? Man's got a logo, Man,

(03:02):
let's move on. We'll talk about this some other time.
It's you made her mark and now you are officially
uh Sugar Steve, he's the flash of the crew. Now
he's it's coming in two weeks. Yeah. I haven't just
saying what they're talking about to have my own talk
show now. Yes, he has a spin off already, a

(03:24):
Chat with Sugar. Yes, I still think you should change
the title man like John Sugar. Not yet, It's already
in the history books. One sometimes No, you didn't want
us call you Sugar Steve when we first started this show,
and I had to force that title on you. So,
I mean, you know he's branded now. I like chatting

(03:45):
with I'm a pop in on you one time, I'm
a joining I'm gonna be My wife is at avid
watcher of Chat with Sugar number one. Right, he's already
starting to change. Is already he should have. Really, he's
seen that was really happening. I see you all the
time when you taught me everything I know. I know
as a host, that's always the death nail whatever someone

(04:09):
says you talk. He's like, he's like, that's why I's
failing about the offer me? Oh god. Anyway, ladies and gentlemen,
today our special guests is an accomplished actress, producers, screenwriter, showrunner,
and director. She made history in two thousand seventeen as

(04:30):
the first Wait, are you tired of people bringing up
this fact? Way about you? Like it's a unicorn? Like
it is? Yeah, here's the truth. Can I be the
first show that doesn't just will bring it up? No
one will let you not bring it up. That's the
thing is I have just owned that it's always going
to be a part of my life and my career.
But I think it's a you know, it's a cool thing.

(04:50):
It's a really cool thing, you know. But it's also
sort of sad that in two thousand and seven, that's
the first people have to be reminded of that sad fact.
But so what was adult because I shared with Donald,
Like Donald is the first black person ever went for
directing episode of comic television. So I feel like it
was nice to make history with He did a Halle

(05:10):
Denzel before the m Yeah, exactly. I love when we
did the interview before I even get the introduction. Now,
she made history in two thousand and seventeen as the
first African American female to win an Emmy for Outstanding
Writing on Economy Series for the very excellent Thanksgiving episode
of one of my favorite shows, Masters, Master of None. Um,

(05:32):
and you're also the showrunner of the critically acclaiming shy Ye. Yes,
the creator also a big thing for a black woman
because it's only like three of y'all. It's true, It's true.
It's like me, Shonda Mara, Courtney Camp who created Power.
A lot of people forget about Courtney, but at corneys
like waiting she's shine and waiting because she's about to

(05:54):
do get Christie Love. We still have introduced our guest welcome,
didn't wait to slept super Yeah, I'm happy to be here.
I'm glad you're here. Yeah. So that's well. My question was,
are you tired of having to bear the burden of
being the first of you know, in two thousand seventeen. Yeah,

(06:17):
I mean, I don't know if I'm tired of it.
I think I'm very proud to be a vessel. That's
what I really feel like. It's like because I know
I'm at the first black woman whoever has written a
funny episode of television. I just think it takes the while,
the industrial while to kind of catch up. So I
think the stars are sort of aligned and for me
to have that amazing accomplishment. But the truth is, I

(06:39):
was just I went to the Oscar parties and stuff
like that, got a chance to top it up with
Halle Berry, the one and only. She still looks great. Uh.
And the sad part was when we watched the packages
for like Best Actress, Best Lead Actress, Um, she's still
the only one. No one has followed her since winning
from Monster's Ball and so, and I brought that up,
you know, to her, and I thought, man, like, that's

(07:01):
still the troublesome and she said yeah. And I think
for me, my biggest mission with it is to make
sure I'm not the last is to do I'm here
mantoring like crazy, I'm trying to, you know, walk people
into rooms because I don't mind being the first as
long as there's others that can walk through, because then
what happens to people just celebrate that moment ago, Oh
aren't we grand? Like we had this moment um? And

(07:23):
I think Donald feels the same way. I think, you know,
I think we want to make sure that we're this
This shortlist that we're on, which we are on, is
a very short list. People that they go to us
for everything. We want to make it longer. We want
to introduce them to these new writers that are out
here doing dope stuff. How can what's the what's the
process of even finding quality? Because I know, like there's

(07:44):
there's an argument of of being included or getting a
seat at the table versus bringing something quality to the table,
And that's often a debate we have. I mean, there's
you know, black film out there now that might or
or black actors or writers or whatever who are might

(08:08):
be whatever, but it's black. We gotta support it, right
And some of that bringing the money aren't necessarily the
quality that you particularly enjoy. So how can you How
is one able to vent through that? Because I always feel,
always felt as though the process of getting to greatness
not saying that I've ever heard stories of Martin Carcese

(08:29):
being an internal a set somewhere eventually working his way
up to what do you start with Woodstock as an editor?
But it's like, what's what's the process of getting in
behind the scenes? Because I feel what's more notable about
you is that even though you're an actress, I know
on the show, I like you're behind the scenes work

(08:52):
is very substantial and that I feel is more important
for you to pull people in right. Well, look, I
mean you bring up a really interesting point because it's
a very controversial topic. You know that I'm trying to
deal with it, and I gotta we just gotta greenlit
to do a pilot called Twenties over at TBS, which
is a half hour which is loosely based on my
twenty's being a queer black girl live in Los Angeles

(09:13):
who thank you so much, who is an aspiring television
writer as well. And she's a little bit this character
is not exactly me. It's a little bit ballsier than me.
And there's a fictitious, you know, black show that she's
trying to get a job one um and she talks
with our girls about it and she's like, man, I
don't want to go work on that show, and uh
and the word no, no, no, no, no, because I

(09:36):
know you worked at Girlfriends. Yeah, but no, it's not
that it's not that no no no, But it's honestly,
it's like it's not based on I'm creating like characters
to kind of talk about issues I want to discuss,
even though, but I'm also just using my dating life
as a bit fodder for like this character. But the
thing is is like there are shows that black folks
don't love, but you can't say it in public. And

(09:57):
so no, not black shows. No, who don't like at
Atlanta is No? Those are those are like I'm talking
like like in public you say into other people, yeah
it's cool. Well, I don't know if that I don't
necessarily true. I think there are people that genuinely can occurally. Yeah, yeah,

(10:21):
people that generally funk with those shows, you know, oftentimes
they live in the South, you know what I'm saying.
Maybe not, maybe they're supposed to live in New York City.
I don't know, but I'm just saying, but there are
people that really I'm talking about shows that you feel
like or even movie sometimes or you're like, okay, and
you see the campaigns like they go on Instagram, all
the celebrities are saying, yeah, yeah, there's a guilt trip.

(10:42):
You almost feel like you all if you don't go
see you don't post your ticket, you know, And I
just kind of feel like that then becomes it kind
of goes all. I mean, look, hey, I'm just saying
like there's a there's a guilt that you feel, um
and the question it becomes is like when we get

(11:03):
to that point. But I think that's why again, it's
proof that the playing field is still not leveled because
we don't have enough movies where we can skip it.
How many white folks you know, it's like, oh yeah,
I gotta go see Death Wishes. We can you know
what I'm saying, Like, I don't know, it's just like,
but I do think there's this pressure on black folks
to go support black stuff, whether you love it or not.
And I just don't think we've gotten to that place

(11:23):
where you can't go online be like even if even
with my show, I don't know what's real because I
don't know if that somebody's gonna come yea, the shots
just okay, because then folks will be like, why you hate? No,
you know that that becomes my thing is I'm like,
I welcome it. If you don't it, tell me why
it's like in private amongst us. I've heard some some
interesting Chicago comments about the shot, but they would never

(11:44):
say it in front of others. But my thing is,
you have to, like, what's the deal. I feel like
until we can start criticizing each other in public, wing
will never overcome. Like we just kind of have to.
But I think there's this this thing of like we
don't want to talk about, and trust me, I'm guilty
of it. Like there's things that maybe I don't love,
but I'm gonna talk about that on Twitter, I'm gonna
go in on Instagram. I'm gonna be supportive. And I

(12:06):
think that's just about about our community to like we
just don't kind of air our dirty laundry. Like if
we if I have a criticism about your show, I
can say that to you, me and you talking, But
I ain't gonna say that in the room full of
white folks. You know, I get it, but I would.
I also think it's and I think that Donald and
I have had this conversation is that he ain't always

(12:26):
want to be better. We always want to make our
stuff great. You know. We don't ever want somebody to say,
oh yeah, I like that show because I'm supposed to.
It's like, now, mind you. We can't you please everybody.
You know what I'm saying. We're making TV shows. This
is our point of view, this is our this is
this is our city from from through our lens. So
everybody may have a different version of Chicago than I do,
or people may have a different version of Atlanta than

(12:48):
Donald does. Um, but I think if there's a real
thing of like I don't that is not a real
thing in the city, or we don't go through that,
or that's some fake ship you know what I made up?
Like please by all means like tweet about talk about
a pipe up about it. But I do think there's
a lot of these black artists live in this bubble
of like you only want good things. And you know,
there's some artists that I feel like, I like to

(13:09):
call it being under the tip for too long where
they start you see, do you see their material? And
it's almost like watching Muhammad Ali fight passes prime. M M. Well, okay,
is there such thing as fire? But don't know who
I'm shooting the mass? That's all good? No, no, okay.
So let's take like, does it make me snobby if

(13:30):
I looked down on uh, meet the Browns and Tyler,
because I mean the prose of it is that he's
he has his own studio, he's putting people to work, right, YadA, YadA, YadA.
But charming, dude. I met him the first time over Oscar.
We get I'm Tyler. But I'm just saying that, Um,

(13:51):
the way that Spike went about criticizing him, right, I mean,
is it again? It almost makes you question your taste
and I have it's about hip up all the time.
Like you know, I wasn't very forthcoming and saying that, Uh,
I mean, maybe I was a little indifferent to something.
Let me think of now, I'm thinking of something like Okay,

(14:13):
back when first came out or UK, I was slow
to open up to U G K and m j G.
And then once Reek started really fun on the tour
bus and I was like, okay, Chicago, that one hard
on that. Yeah, it took me a while because I
came from jazz samples with like my East Coast. But

(14:38):
is it like I'm trying to figure out if either
I have my mentality and willing myself to like something
that I normally would think is low brow humor. I
think you just have to for me, I look at it.
You have to look at the audience that is intended
for and like does something does it hit its target?
You know what I'm saying. And so for me, like

(15:00):
my mom watches Meet the Browns and like, what's the
other one we got? The the have you was wrong?
Like you can't call her? Whilst us running through these titles,
It's like it's not for me, you have to learn
it's all right, this is not my kind of thing,

(15:20):
but the audience that he's going for. With that audience,
you know what I mean? But it is subjective. Is
it is it really low brown humor that you're above
or are we just here, here's past it all, and
we think we're better than that, and look here's And
I own my snobbiness, like I'm totally aware of it.
Like I work in the business. I'm have a very

(15:41):
critical I I try to sometimes come back from that,
but I just can't. And also my fiance is, well
she's she's an exact but now she runs Michael B.
Jordan's production company, so we are aware that we go
to the arc light, we have our sign seems like
where those black people are. But yeah, like it was
just like whatever is it? What it is? But I think,
to me, what's scary about those shows is that they're

(16:02):
constantly being pumped to the same black audience. Is what
happens is I always looking at like food and what
you digest. So they're being given McDonald's, which is fast,
it tastes good and it goes through you really quickly exactly.
So then it's like when you try to give you
something like filet million, like for our caviard as cargo,
all our moonlight get out things like that, sometimes it

(16:22):
becomes difficult for them to eat that food because they're
so used to McDonald's. So that's my only thing I
was like, I'm cool people, you know, taking in that
kind of entertainment with the tough thing, especially for black folks.
It's like it's like, what I want is for our
people to have a more sophisticated palette, so to speak,
which is like they go see Boom, you know, but

(16:45):
then also go see Moonlight, you know, go see um
you know, a movie like Shape of Water. I just
kind of want our folks to have that kind of exposure.
It's not unlike, you know, when we deal with kids
on the South Side who've never been downtown, you know
what I'm saying, Like they're only watching those os and
so what happens is and also too, even though yes
it's funny and light and it's all good and Tyler
is like me, he's such a good dude, I think

(17:07):
it can get a little nutty when that's the only
images are so powerful because I grew up I was
very blessed. Like I was a kid, I got to
watch a different world like Every Thursday and The Cosby
Show and like Fresh Prints and things like that, and
so I was saying images of people that I wanted
to be. They were smart, they would fly, they were cool,
they were literally on a fictitious like the HBCU you know,

(17:30):
a campus every week, and it may seem like, all,
isn't that cheesy, but look at what it did. My
production companies called Human Grab Productions Like yo, I was
gonna say at the end of the Shy. First of all,
y'all have a lot of tags. At the end of
hopefully I get rid of some of the funny. That
was the funniest thing to be because after the third one,
I was like waiting for dude, dude, like people since

(17:56):
I got a card in that mother. But when I
saw Human going back, I was like, wait a minute, yeah,
that that has to be heard. Yeah, And look, it's
like some people know, some people don't. It's like whatever,
if you know, you know, I really with you usually
think it's your show, though, why would you put yourself fifth?
Like when your card No, that's holloween, that's Hollywood politics.

(18:17):
It's my first show. So you get executive producers that go,
I want you know, when the cards are placed my
first show? Did you even know that? And then they
gave it to me after the fact that want some
stuff happened to my career. They oh, yeah, we'll get
you a card. Then let me ask you. You You mentioned
that conversation, you mentioned him in a different world. I
was wondering what you think about the evolution of two

(18:39):
grown is because I just really started watching that, and
you know that that is a real child of different
a different world. Yeah, I would never put the two
in the same way. Class I mean, honestly, to me,
that's no shade, especially because it's on free form. I
haven't watched it. I'm addicted to it. I kind of
like to people kind of be throwing shade at it.
I was like, it, yeah, something some people. I know,

(19:01):
maybe it's those black people that's like I don't want
to say something publicly, but some people coming at me
about it. I'm like, I don't know. I kind of
get a good vibe from it. I mean, it's interesting.
I'm intrigued. First of all, it's a free form show,
which is basically like the channel very people get the
ABC Family pre contextualizes free form. But it's like, I
haven't seen everything else. She pops, she pops, uh pills

(19:25):
every episode, and and it's like they're trying to go
they're trying to get real with it, you know. But
I mean, but again, it's like to me, it's like,
I just don't I would never put them in a side.
Even if Kenya was sitting here right now, he'd be like,
please don't put that on me. I wasn't differ, But
would it be there if it wasn't for a different world.
That's what I was trying to say to me. I
don't know, I just hear it. I'm in a different

(19:47):
world purest and I think that. And I think that
Grownish is not because that's not the ABC U is it. Yeah.
I was trying to feel like, I think even with
der white people, people try to say, oh, you guys influence.
I'm like no, I'm like, because dear white people is
literally a metaphor for America, because it's like the black

(20:07):
people on that campus are minority, going to talk about
how weird you feel, and and like what kind of
black person you are? What kind of black people you
hang out with? So I think it's very different. I
think a different world existed in its own space and time.
I'm also on people that's anti a reboot of it
or all this kind of ship. I just think it's silly.
It's like a different world existed at that time. And
we don't need to reboot it. We don't need to
have another version. And I've gotten to get cool with

(20:28):
a lot of the actors from that show. I'm just
like na son, it happened, and thank God and letting
it alone. And have about Bad Boys, it's never been
a sequel, like Bad Boys is a classic. It was
supposed to work. It did by accident. Thank god, Bad
Boys too, and Bad Boys it is not any I
think I think they pulled it though, thank you about it.
Thank you is getting to remake everybody's getting But I

(20:53):
don't know. I mean, I don't know. Well, yeah, Grownish
to me is like a more new, watched, friendlier version
of kids who I mean, kids were shocking and yeah,
but now that's just like that's that's a Tuesday. So yeah,

(21:17):
what was your beginning in the world of acting, Like,
how did you how did you first start? Honestly? Like production, Well, well,
I'll talk about the acting. I had no plans on
being an actor, like it's I literally give a lot
of credit one to God because he ordered my steps,
but also to these amazing casting directors that looked at
me and said, uh bet you should be in front

(21:37):
of the camera as well, and one of them was
Alison Jones, who was a famed casting director of Google
or I made her credits are ridiculous, everything from like
cast freaking Geeks which literally ship us, you know, you know,
Seth Rogan and James Frank, all these people, and then
she also cast like Veep and brides Maids and all
these amazing things. So I heard she went to me
with me. Um. I didn't know why because I was like,
I'm not casting anything, but I went and sat down

(21:58):
with her and she asked if any interest in being
an actor. I said no. She's like, okay, um, well
let me bring you in for some stuff. And so
she did. She brought me in for some things. I
bought a small part on the Comebacks He's in two
with Cood show on HBO. And then she didn't call
me in for Master of None like apparently as He's
and Allen just said send us interesting people. And by
the grace of guy, she said, well then you should
meet Lena. I went to Zesus Crib sat with him

(22:21):
and Alan um Uh and had just was just myself
and I got a call then like hey, as He's
wants you to come read with him. I saw the
pages and I was my writer heself, and I said,
you can I punch this up? And I was like sure,
and so I did. And so I was saying stuff
back to him that he obviously wasn't prepared for, and
he was sort of chuckling and laughing, but as he's

(22:42):
and I just had an instant couldn't like vibe in
the chemistry because people seriously ask because if we've been
friends for before the show, and we hadn't We We met,
like you know, at his house and talking and and
doing these scenes, and then he called me, He's like
coming to New York for a couple of months and
do this show with me. And I just really went
off of like the fact that I was a fan
of his already, his humor, the fact that he knows

(23:03):
black culture in a very unique way. Um, and I
just loved him on Parks and Wrack, and I literally
I just sold the shy the showtime and I was like,
can y'all give me three months to go away through
this thing? They were like okay, sure, um, And so
I came here. You don't know what you have with Netflix.
It was it was early Netflix that we were like
one of the Netflix like fourth or fifth original show.
So we don't know what it was gonna be. We
don't have an audience, but we just trusted that what

(23:25):
we were doing with something interesting. It was new, it
was fresh um and people really responded to it. And
then for the Spielberg joint, um Ellen Lewis, another famed
cast and director, saw my picture in Hollywood Reporter and
was like, why haven't we seen this girl for this role?
And my agents are like, because she's not auditioning for stuff.
So I came in read with them, uh read again.
Thank god. Spielberg was not in all of those auditions.

(23:46):
But after the second one, Uh he saw my tape,
I was like, yeah, I want her to be in
the movie. And then I went to on it for
four months. So wait, you just said something real big.
Before we saw your face. You had a deal with Showtime.
They had bought the pilot. Yeah, I've written the pilot
and they're like, yeah, we want to make this. How
did I mean, because people was the time between making
your pilot too? Well? I wrote them, Well, here's the deal.

(24:06):
We shot the first pilot and we weren't we didn't,
we weren't super happy with how it turned out. We
thought it was fine, but we were like, they were
like I told them, I said, I need a director
that really gets my voice. I know my voice is unique,
I know the shot is not the typical formulaic shows,
like I need somebody that's not the typical formula director.
And Rick Famer you became available, and I was like,
can he do get a swing out? They were like sure,

(24:28):
like we think that would be a great match. We
got a new cast and director. We got Jason Mitchell
came in and read and Jacob Latimore always amazing sing
your song aways amazing people. And the original pilot is
different than what I've seen on the pilot for I
mean it's the script is the same, but the cast
is different and the director is different. So it made
a world of different plea. I just want to be

(24:50):
even back. Can you send me a copy and the
original if I have an original copy of it anymore,
because like that was two years ago. But but it
was like, and mind you, I liked it. I liked
that it was fine, but I think showtime and that's
the testament to them. They really believed in it, and
they were like, we think we can do better, and
I was like, okay, I was like cool, Now was
there any concern of yours that showtime I was trying

(25:14):
their hardest to not mention the W word as they
gave you the shy like you know version of the
wire like that sort of thing. It's funny like they
didn't know, they didn't well, they didn't bring that up
at all. And the crazy thing is, and I don't
want to be a bad black person, but I never
like obsessed over the wire like that. I was more
about the white people. I love the wire. I like

(25:37):
the wire, but I was more into the corner. Ye.
White people love the wire. They love insecure, like they're
like all about it, you know what I'm saying. It's like,
but I feel like I just never that was never
my thing, Like the corner was really dope. Is a
thing that Spike did a long time ago people may
not remember, called Sucker Free City. That was that was
really cool that really I just really liked and thought

(25:58):
it was really interesting. Um so those are things and
also to like, um House of Cards you know, had
come out, and I was really inspired by that. So
those are really inspirations for me. While I was working
on The Shy in terms of characters being interconnected and
bumping into each other. Um and and yeah, but and
so because I understand the comparison, I guess, but when
you watch The Shy, it's the completely I know there's

(26:19):
there's no comparison, but just with large black on, you know,
and and I mean had a connection with each other.
It's sort of like an effortless watching the Magic Circle
for their home glood shops, like a very effortless no
look past chemistry that they had with each other. Right,

(26:40):
So the shot, Like, my biggest thing is I didn't
want to focus on the system or the police or
the cops. And I think we're gonna get away from
that even more in season two that I think first
season I was like, Okay, well what's the engine. But
I was like I would say, like I really don't
care about the cops. I care about the people, Like
I don't want to talk about the police. I want
talk about the people were being policed, Like that's is
more interesting to me. So not to step on your toe, Spotsman,

(27:00):
But I'm like, okay, so nobody saw your face yet
you have to deal with show time. I know that
your your background as writers assistant in your relationship with
Jina Prince would but can you really break that? Like,
who the hell are you, Lena to get these amazing
deals that this writing, Like where did you come from?

(27:22):
So sorry, but I just, you know, like honestly, like I,
you know, graduated from Columbia College, which is in Chicago,
moved out to l A in two thousand and six
and just started like pounding the pavement, just grinded. I
think it's just a Chicago hustle in me where I
was just like I went out there with the intent
of running the town and I was like eventually and
you know, and I think that was genuinely my mindset.
You know, I wasn't like on going to anybody this year, dad,

(27:44):
but I was just like, I want to be a
phenomenal writer. I really cared about the craft. And I
think that's a big thing I see was as I
meant to a lot of young writers, I think that's
sort of the last thing on their list to conquer.
They're sort of like, well, where's the red carpet? Like
when do I get the deal? And they don't realize
there's so much politics. Are talking about me being a
third card on my own show. Like these folks be
thinking you get a show and like you King and Queen.
It's like no, it's like I was like the least

(28:05):
powerful person at the table. Now I'm gonna do a
different space, you know. But the first season and it's truth.
And that's that's no shade to my network of my seal.
That's any case, if you go sold the show tomorrow,
they don't know you, they could fire you. They own
your show. But how different was your like the day
after the Emmy, Like it's but the Emmy, the the

(28:27):
Emmy change, Yeah, I meant, you know, that's let's be clear,
like it just and also too, it's like it changed
the dynamics on the shy for me, it changed you know,
um you know in terms of how I walked to
the world. But even it's the truth, like I was
already very clear about who I was, like an artist
I want to be before the Emmy like I was,
you know, I I would say no the things, certain

(28:49):
things I would go like I don't know if I'm
the right person for this or that just feels like
a check and I don't want to just like sell
myself for that. And I think there's this element where
I sometimes see people they go like, but why would
you not do that? That makes sound like but it
may seem cool. He don't get caught up in the
announcement on deadline, you know, because that's fleeting. It's like
it would be a cool thing for people to retweet. Sure,

(29:11):
but like, what about the quality of my life? Do
I want to work with that person? Really? Yeah, they're
a big star, But do I want that person being
my my partner that I'm getting in bed with. It's like, now,
I'd rather go with the normal motherfucker who ain't that
hot than the famous person that might give me a headache. Actually,
you know what, I'm gonna use this moment. I'm sorry.
Now I got to step on all y'all. T I

(29:33):
need some advice right now, advice from don't don't eat
in bed? I eat in bed every night, you know. So, uh,

(29:55):
when you just just for those that don't understand me,
the the process of creating a script and show running,
can you run us through? So are you saying that
once you complete a script that you're happy with you
and your collaborator, you, yourself, whatever, once it's in the

(30:16):
hands of the production company or the whatever showtime or
whoever you're rolling with is out of your hands. Is
it up to the director to then see what he
wants to or she wants to see with what's on
the script, Well, it usually depends because like for me
and I'll try to take you through like a fictitious scenario.

(30:38):
But like but even for the shot, I wrote that
by myself, like all spec all spec means for free,
Like nobody paid me to write that. I just said
I want to write this story. So I wrote it,
um and then I gave it to my agents and
I was like, Okay, I want you guys to send
us out your production companies because I do feel like
having a production company. Then you like he's like like
Brad p has production company called Plan B. You know, um,

(30:59):
what's another good one? I don't know Kared Washington's production company.
There are certain places you can give your script to
you because at the time, like I wasn't really your name,
so I was like, maybe I can get in bed
with the producer who has a little bit more weight,
who's got those connections that then they then say, okay,
we put our arm around Lena, We're gonna walk into
all these different networks and say we really believe this
is the thing, or then go to a studio, because

(31:19):
the studio is like a bank. A studio, they pay
for everything and the network airs the show. So I
got in bed with the producer Aaron kaplan Um. Uh dude,
I call him Tony soprano of like TV producers. He's
got like eight shows on that he's an ep on
um and so he doesn't necessarily have to be like
super involved in every single show. But he's a person
that has a lot of like connections and can walk
in the door and say, yeah, I think this is dope.

(31:40):
So he and I. He's like, if I can't produce
this show, it's not producible. Okay, I believe you. So
then he takes me into a studio which which is
now Fox for me one, but it used to be FTVS.
So um, so he was like, Yo, I think you
guys should read this this girl's script Andy borne Um
exactly over there he read it. He's like, I like
the script so much. If we don't sell this script
to a network, we're gonna float into a blind deal.

(32:02):
That's how much we believe in Lena and a blind
deal means if it don't go, they'll pay me this right,
whatever else I want to write. So that means they
had a lot of confidence in my voice and who
I was, Oh Jesus, I'm so bad with that, probably
three or four years ago something like that. So then
so now I got a producer. I gotta who has
this production company. He's like a production company. And now
I have a studio. So I got a place that

(32:23):
saying like we're gonna only with the money for this
show whoever has to do it. So then they're like
where do you want to sell? So then you figure
out what makes sense for the show, like what's a
good home for the show. So I was like, I
really like Showtime, but they'd just done the show called
The Affair, which I thought was super dupe and really
unique and really fresh. And I was like, if they
can do The Affair, they should want to do you know,
the Shy so um, So we went into Showtime first.

(32:43):
That was like that was like my top school that
I wanted to get into. So we go in the Showtime.
We have a wonderful meeting and they bite immediately. They're like, yeah,
we love it, we love you let's do it so
so and by that time and also some other stuff
like comment was like I want to be involved. I
was like, you absolutely should be involved. We brought him
on as an EP and then we even brought in
the director uh as well. But low key. I think,

(33:04):
depending on who you are, you don't necessarily need a
whole army to walk with you into a into a network.
But it's only no longer out of your hands once
you signed a deal with somebody, Like if you sign
a deal with a studio where they're like, yeah, we
want to be in business with you, quest love with
this script, we want to buy it, we want to
give you a check, We're going to all things. Now
they do own it. They now own it. You don't

(33:26):
own it anymore. And if you if they don't like
you or you do something wrong, they do have the
right to fire you off the show and bring somebody
else in the run it and do it. And even
on my show my first season, I had a shot runner.
I didn't run that show for first because also you
don't want to show run your first season, because being
a showrunner is like the worst job on the planet,
but it's also the most powerful job. On the planet.
The shot runner has more power than the creator of
the show. Does that make sense because the shot runner

(33:48):
is the person who is running the room, who's talking
to the networks, on to the studio, and a lot
of people don't even know what the show runner is.
So funny, like I'm not putting nobody on the blast,
but the shot runner of Empire for who still is
It was never Lee Daniels. He created the show with
um with Danny right, was Strong, Danny Strong, they created
the show together. But he does the really well. Danny

(34:08):
might say he kind of helped Shara, but yeah, a
white woman show that continues to show run the Empire
secret But yeah, I just thought shaking who created so
by the transitive axiom because I always because what transit
it was being vehicles transit that is that hopeful what

(34:32):
I'm saying, I'm now I'm trying to transit vaccinum And
you're basically telling me that Tony Braxton or TLC story
like you're on La Face, which is a production deal
under another entity, which is under Arista Records. So it's
like she has more power than them, right, No, no no, no,
I know, but you said you have the option to

(34:53):
either go with someone that can walk into the room
all the black Brad Pitt or whoever. The tony soprano is, yeah,
iron can right right? So are you saying that it's likely,
It's not that likely if you yourself just walked it
to the head of show time, it's well you actually,

(35:14):
But I don't know if I agree with that anymore. Sorry,
But the truth is they wanted my script. They wouldn't
have cared ifut I came from Tim Buck too. So
what I'm wanted that the position right now? Would you
walk someone direct to I already? Have I already had
like the back to the front of the line, or
is it like come through me and then I'll put

(35:36):
you through the mumbo and then no, no, I'm I'm
gonna believe it going straight to the source. It's like
there's a girl who writes on the shot whos super
Dub and him as Catholicsake. She wrote a phenomenal Poloty
also wrote another pilot. But I'm an ep on that pilot,
and we just had a meeting at show time, and
like when we went around all the kind of stuff
like that, I was like, we're going to trade to
the source now. Mind you, I have a very different
relationship with show time now, and so when I walk
somebody in, they're like, oh great. But I also believe

(35:58):
that the end of the day, everybody a dope script
is like a freaking lottery ticket. So you don't need,
you know, a team of people with you. If you
got a lottery ticket, go cast your ship in. If
you got that lottery ticket, that's all that matters. And
what's happening now, it's like content is king and Queen,
So they don't care where are you from. Look at
Diavo Cody, like she look at her story, look at
you know what I'm saying, look at even though Jordan,

(36:18):
people have been around for a long time doing that,
but like that script was something. People are like, Okay,
this is a game changer, and that's how you never
heard a blomb house, you know what I'm saying. But
they're like, we want to do this thing, and now
everybody they mama want to get in business. But ultimately
it's like, if you got a dope script, those execs
want to make the thing. Now what they want to
do a surround you with people who know what then
they're doing you don't want some kids, you give them

(36:38):
the keys to a portion's like, okay, go drive. So
it's like, so what happens is usually you sit in
the passenger side while somebody who knows how to drive
drive the car for you, and you tell them where
to turn and where to go and keep straight this
and that. But it is very complicated the thing that
nobody knows because like you know, it's like even like
what TV works, like no one person could write every
single episode of a show. Just you hear people like

(37:01):
Aaron Aaron Sorkin and like Matthew Winer, but people like
even Shonda and myself, and like, we need help to
do these shows. There's a writer's room. It's people we
have to lean on and trust and um and you
know a lot of us have showrunners, you know, that
are running the show for us and we get the
creative input. But if you don't get along with your
show runners, it gets real sticky. So from the time
you created the pilot to it actually making it on air,

(37:23):
that was what three or four years, about maybe two
two years actually, yeah, because we took one year we shot,
we took another year to do that. When they put
it out but how many great scripts get overshadowed because
there's not a great team around it. I feel like
that happens all the time. But you see, yeah, and
that is true, and I think that's what the Blacklist
site is becoming really helpful. My dude, Franklin Leonard started
that where like anybody you didn't gonna have a manager,
you don't have nothing. If you put us a script

(37:44):
up there, you pay to get in evaluation. If you
get like an eight or above, that means you've got
a really good script. And what happens is people like
me can download them send them around. I so I
went on my Twitter and said, look, I gotta I
now have a development fund. I'm looking to find writers.
I don't care where you are. If you got to
manage you've got Asian for young, black, old white, a
queer or whatever. If you got a dope script, that's interesting.
That makes sense for my production company to help get

(38:05):
development get out there in the world. I want to
see it when you talk about how to cut through
all the clutter, that's what the Blacklist site does. And
a lot of black folks on time and be like, well,
I don't want to put my ship into the internet.
I'm like, look, what else, what's your alternative? You know
what I'm saying. It's like, pay to get in evaluates,
like seventy five bucks for a feature, like something just
less than that for a pilot, and you put it
up there, you get professional fucking feedback. Because that's a
lot of people are here writing in their offices and

(38:27):
thinking they got Shakespeare and it's like, no, this doesn't
happen to have not no shade, no t you know
what I'm saying. But the end of the day, it's
like nobody's getting feedback the Blacklist site. But actually it's
the it's without vowel so b l c k l
s T dot com. B l c k l s
T dot com. But if you google Franklin Leonard Blacklist site,
it'll pop up and you don't have to do all

(38:48):
you gotta do. If you got like seven five bucks,
you gotta feature you wanted to upload, pay to get
a evaluation. And if you get a five, you know
what that means, Maybe you get some writing classes. Ain't
nothing wrong with that. If you get an eight means
you got a pretty solid script on your hands, and
then you should either hit me up, or you can
hit in almost anybody up and say, hey, I gotta
got an overall eight score on the black List site,
and motherfucker's in the business will know what that means.

(39:09):
They're gonna go, oh, so that means you got a
pretty decent script, can you say? And also, here's the
great thing. It cuts the workout for me because because
you can send me that evaluation, it'll tell me how
many pages it is, what the log line is, what
the title is, and tell me what the strengths are
in the script, what the weaknesses are, and what its
potential is. But I'm sorry, what's the How long does
that process take for him to value? Sometimes talks about like,
you know, a few days, sintimes a week. Okay, you

(39:32):
just don't know about this ship, unlike unlike someone playing
me a demo, And I'm telling you there's maybe eight
times in my life I listened to the demo. His
was one of them. Not for real, like Jill Scott
slum Village, Yeah, like my, my, there's yeah, I don't

(39:58):
have the patience to sit through. But how did you
my questions? But how did you? How did how did
you end up listening to a Scots, very specific circumstances
A long time ago, Jill, I was really I thought,
people say that video she don't know, she might not.

(40:21):
You're not, you're not, You're not. I have a woman,
now that's right, okay, but no, it was very specific circumstances,
like what was it like a thunderstorm when we were
at the Little Brother show at Duke. Yeah, so a thunderstorm,
uh canceled our show and I felt bad for all

(40:44):
the Duke fans that had to stand this mind soon
to wait for the rooms to come on. So I
was like, all right, let me just go on the
front row and shake everyone's hands. And you put it
in my hand. I gave it to you. I gave
you a little brother like our first little joints, like
four or five joints. Yeah, he put it in my hand,
and I don't know what made me just and I
never all the CDs are always like coasters to me. Right,
I was like, let me listen to this, and I

(41:05):
heard a sample I recognized child. I was like, oh ship,
and then I realized that these guys are awesome. So yeah,
it was very rare circumstances to which UM was like
a human saxophone or something you heard is I was
just crazy and yeah, but that's the thing. It's like,

(41:29):
you know, like energy. I was gonna say, for me
to listen to a five minutes long as hard at
easier for you. You need silence and time, Like, so,
do you have a regiment that you do, like you
spend two hours every morning and silence looking at scripts?
It depends, like I mean, honestly, I what I try
to do is make it so that if I'm reading

(41:51):
a script, it better be damn good. So I have
how do you know if it's bullshit by page? What? Oh?
I can tell from the first like what are your
what's your opening line? I mean it's right there. The
voice is either there or it's not. It's it's like
it's like it's it's almost like singing or a competition
like that. It's like either you can hear it from
the first note. To me, action lines are really important

(42:12):
because until it's dialogue, but action lines are the things
that you guys don't know or see, like you know,
that's you hear the dialogue with the action lines are
like describing the space, describing the characters. That's where my
personality comes out, you know about how I describe someone. Um, Like,
I'll describe a character like she has a kind of
beauty that sneaks up on you, and she has mommy

(42:32):
issues that she still hasn't dealt with. This is so
and so on, she's thirty five years or whatever. That's
how I'll describe a character, which speaks to how my
personality and who I am. You want to know how
smart and witty you are based on how you describe
ye like that That's that's me giving you my ship,
you know, because when I start, when I when the
characters start talking, that's them, like I can't you know,
I have to step into their shoes. But in between

(42:53):
that I get to kind of have my own little
relationship with the reader and not the audience because the
audience isn't gonna hear that. But the director looks at
that as a way to go, Okay, God, this helps
me cast. This helps me determine what she's gonna wear.
And the way to describe the room or from like
it's it's like like I described like a hotel room,
like this is the place where um, you know, uh,
sex has exchanged for money in this in this hotel room.

(43:16):
They they didn't know how that. So that's also my
way to communicate with my you know, production designer, my
war to department, all that kind of stuff as well.
Awesome lessons. Tell me about your pounding the pavement days,
because I don't want to. I don't I don't want
to think that your life was green lights, like, so
the pounding that the day that you decided to go

(43:40):
to l A to pursue your dreams in two thousand six,
or ware you weren't you with girlfriends by two thousand though, No,
I was a girlfriend the last season. Yeah, yeah, sounds
like six years. Yeah no, no, no, no no, like because
I graduated from college with two thousand and six, so
I literally like moved out there. And it's funny because

(44:01):
my first internship really kind of was was with um
Edmonds Entertainment when it used to be called Edmonds Entertainment,
which is baby Face and Tracy when they were um
they still maybe they weren't together anymore. I wasn't there yet,
but I knew about that movie about that movie is dope,

(44:23):
you know what? Actually, I just found because Columbia College
has a great message board where you can see about internships.
So I saw it on there and then like this
white guy I think there was Lucas he was working
for them. He called me in. I didn't need much,
you know. He was like he's like, okay, you're on time.
Your resume is cool. And I interned for them, and
you know, I was around Tracy and you know those guys,
and they would like do they would like they had

(44:44):
like a studio and people come into music. Remember I
used to come up in there. Uh. And they had
like very expensive cars and Eddie Murphy might have been
kind of sort of dating Tracy at the time, I think,
so I saw him a few times, but like they
were doing like reality show stuff. They were like I
was like p a on some of their stuff they
were doing. But it was just a cool place because
I was like, Oh, these motherfucker's that this wholeful, Like

(45:04):
this is little. And so I was up in there,
and then I started working in reality TV, where I
was like a person transcribing like videos for the real
world and ship like it was that's how you make money.
We live in you gotta work in reality And then
I started because that was from like six pm to
three am every night, and because I wanted my days
free so I could intern. So I interned at a

(45:25):
literary agency that ultimately end up repping me later. But
I was there from nine to five and Beverly Hills
and drove an hour to the valley from six or
three am for like two months. First department was deep
in the valley. Yeah, but now only a day job.
That was an internship, so I wasn't getting paid three hours.

(45:45):
But then you started off as three days a week,
and then they were like, we're gonna bring somebody else
and I was like, no, I'll do it because I
was like, the opportunity comes up, I want that opportunity.
They're like, okay, so you really want to work here
five days a week and go to work at night everything.
I was like, yeah, I'll sleep on the weekends. How
how long was this process before you felt there was
a light at the end of the tunnel? Man, I
just kept thinking that. But I did that for about

(46:06):
two and a half months, and I kept thinking, like,
I'm going to get something out of this, Like me
doing this, something's gotta come out of it. And then
sure enough one of their clients they were like, one
of our clients is a new assistant and they happened
to be running Girlfriends, and so I was like, I
want to I want to interview that job. So I
went in and like looked to sit in the room
like this with my competition, and I was like, hey,
don't know that y'all know this show better than me.
And I walked in there, got the job, and it

(46:28):
really was the start of my life, you know, in
that industry. You know, I got to meet Mara, Tracy
Ellis Ross, like Kenya was working on the game at
the time, Like everybody I'm cool with now, Like I
met a girlfriends um and uh, and all of them
have like printer Penny who was like he might have
still been like staff right he now runs uh Insecure? Uh,
Karen Just who was working on Girlfriends the time now

(46:49):
run star. Uh. Regina Hicks was currently writing on Insecure.
Um like obviously Kenny Barrits don't the create Blackish and
Growners kind of stuff. So like all those people and
then like you know, you got my black as was
over here trying to do something too, but they literally
like can you text me last night? Ken You was like, bitch,
you a Kimmel, what the funk? Like he's like they
I think for them it's trippy because they remember me

(47:09):
being like the assistant, what was your biggest like mar
or Lesson. I find her so fast. I mean honestly,
the thing I learned she's not a person's like like
say this directly to me. But what I took from
it was like she was a real I think a
politician and that like she's like JFK, you know what

(47:29):
I mean, like very she's she knows in order to
get you to pay attention, she's got to bring a look,
a brand, a vibe. And I think that's what people
don't really know about Mars brilliance in terms of her brand,
is that she doesn't she when she walks in, you're
already like sold whatever it is you're telling me like

(47:50):
I'm gonna buy. And I think that's and that's a
big thing I really picked up from her is that
it's not just about having you know, talent and scirpts,
but it's about what's your brand, Like what's your personality?
Like who are you? And even like her her her
husband the kid, like that's a part of her brand,
like being a mom, being a wife and having you know,
you know, doing love is or you know or um,

(48:10):
you know being Mary Jane, Like all these things are
pulled from her life and her girlfriends is pulled from
pages of her diary, and I think I really picked
up on that. I was like, oh, I should just
talk about who I amn't and be myself and people
will always remember that, Like that's always just telling somebody face.
Other day, I'm like these fucking general meetings that people
have that they're going, I'm like, what's the fucking point.
It's like, if you can't when you walk out of

(48:31):
that room, they gotta you gotta haunt them once you
leave the room, they gotta like I can't get this
right out of my head because the story they share
with me whatever, it's like going there and treat like
a fucking therapy session. Don't be crazy, but like tell them,
tell them, like what's going on, Like if you went
through a breakup, like say that, Like you know, if
you went through a thing, say that, because you never
know what they went through, then they like breakup to
like what And then next thing, you know, you're having

(48:51):
a real connection with an exact that may not even
like your script that much, but when you walk out
the door, they like, I feel like that person just
really gave me a real moment. That's why he used
to always doing I'm like, I'm gonna walk I walk
out of here. They're gonna feel like they had a
real conversation with me, and that for the most part,
they would becase I would give them some real ship.
What what what will prevent? Not prevent you? But now

(49:12):
that the heat is on or now it's on and
popping um. Whitney Cummings once told me like, at one
point it was so exhausting for her, uh fine tuning
every detail of her show and Two Broke Girls, and
at the time she was trying to develop like two
other shows, and I was just like, you know, and

(49:33):
people ask me on like when need you sleeping on?
But it's like, I mean with me, it's like I
kind of have a team for each project I do.
So I could just come and check in the shoulders,
check out of the shoulders. You know, but are you
totally immersed in all the projects that you're developing, as
in you have to micromanage every fine detail of all

(49:54):
these projects, or you know, at one point will you
become Dr dre And I saw the divine ones, you know, uh,
just brilliant. His wife was like, won't you be home? Like,
I don't know, Okay, cool, bab um, that's studio. It's crazy.

(50:18):
But um I think I don't. I don't. I don't
micromanage every project. If I did, I would never sleep
and I wouldn't have a healthy relationship. There are certain
projects like twenties with that pilot, like I gott a
micro manager that because I'm sill trying to get a
serious order. The people they're like, oh, you're another show.
I'm like, not not yet. I got a pilot order.
Me and Justin sent me, is gonna come and direct
that pilot. Yes, we're very excited to be working together again.

(50:38):
We're gonna we're gonna try to give them a phenomenal
pilot that we didn't get a serious order. And then
it's about I'm gonna try to bring su Fail's hell
and the Coach show run that with me. She she
was the show run of a different world and she's phenomenal,
But I want to bring her in and help me
run that and have, you know, maybe have her teach
me some things where I go like, hey, I wanna
do this and learn from her this shine. I have
a phenomenal new show runner. Her name is Ianna Floyd Davis.

(50:58):
She's a black woman. She's to make and she's like
the aunt y'all always you know, I never knew I needed.
But she's she's a shot runner. So it's like I'm
there to help and guide, but she's show running. I
got a project with Kim that Kim Whitley who played
my on Thingsgiving, she wrote something for her Lucy based
on her life. Um, so we have a set up somewhere.
Still trying to get that series order. I still has

(51:19):
them writing to do on that one. But um but yeah,
I want to find a showrunner that really gets her
voice and gets what I'm going for. So again, I
think you're right. It's about having teams of people that
you trust and you love and you funk with. And
I really talented because I and there's things I'm producing.
That's why I really like producing, because then I ain't
gotta like come in and it buys and give thoughts
and this and that and then go. You could take
it to leave it, but I think you should take it.

(51:40):
Uh you know, but I think that's really how I
think you build and build a brand, and and it's
tough because you just truly you look at Whitney Commings
and I remember that that time where she was popping,
like everybody was like she had all these piousness and that,
and I think she's still really talented, and I think
she's still doing really dope things. But I think for me,
it's about also managing that at some point, I'm gonna
step back. I'm gonna go away for a bit where

(52:01):
I'm not everywhere. You know what I'm saying. But you
see my work, you see my shows. You know what
I'm saying. You see the Shy, you see twenties um,
you know, you see you know. I know I've pop
up in season two of Your White People. But it's
like little things like that that makes sense. Or it's
like we got Spilburg movie coming out in this month.
I'm in that. Obviously, I'm not promoting that and things
like that, but once that movie comes out, like I'm
gonna step back a bit and go back into the
lab and do some work. And I think that's really

(52:23):
the trick. I think there's no one when to pull
back and when to come out. Love Kevin Hart, but
Kevin harts Kind everywhere. What did you What did you
say no to that? You know, not that you regret,
like something that was like, ah, this is the dream,
but I can't do it right. There's what I mean, Pink.

(52:48):
I won't say exactly what it is because I'm cool
with a person end up writing it. But I did
get offered to write a movie um that ended up
doing really well, and I was just like, uh, you
can't say the movie no. I'm not gonna say no no. Yeah,
but but I don't want the person that ended up
writing it, Like I said, but here's what I'll say.

(53:09):
But well, it's because she's my friend. But I feel
like to me, I was like, that's not my brand
or like that doesn't speak to my brand. That's me
writing for someone else's brand. And I don't know how
that further is what I'm trying to do. So I
think that's I think sometimes when you grab these things

(53:30):
or isn't that cool, I'm like, yeah, but who is
that really helping? Because if you look at like Black Panther, Yeah,
Marvel is a huge brand. Marvel maybe bigger than Ryan Coogler,
but Ryan Coogler made Marvel not his bitch, but like
they made made it like I'm gonna do my thing
with this movie so much so that it will always
be associated with me and his brand, you know, more
so people to think of it as a Marvel Bran

(53:51):
cool would joint, you know what I'm saying. And I
think if you can do that cool, but that particular thing,
especially where I was in my career, I would have
just been a higher hand. I'm like, no, I'm cool.
I want to make uff that like really feels like me.
Is it safe to say that nobody has tried to
like dumb down or water down your brand, whether we're
talking about your outside or your inside, because it seems
like you have a freedom, You feel a freedom, and

(54:13):
you are allowed this freedom that somebody maybe ten years
ago may not have or even now. That's my big beef.
I still think more. I know a lot of gay
Black celebrities that are not gay publicly. Your essence speech
when you was calling Niggs out, like stay listen, did
you get some back? No? I look, there's nothing but love.
I got a lot of love from people and a

(54:33):
lot of folks that I know who are gay but
aren't out yet. My way, I wasn't like trying to
like shape a couple of text me and said, Yo,
I'm not hide in sis, you know, I'm just out
here And I was like no, But I was like no,
I was like, I don't think that you are. Yeah,
you know, it's like it's like I'm not I don't
I wasn't trying to call nobody. What all I was
saying is we I believe for particularly for gay black

(54:55):
motherfucker's it's our responsibility to be a light at the
end of the tunnel because it's like, if you look
at how many black people there are in Hollywood, and
there's a nice number of us, and think about how
many out gay black people that are in Hollywood. It's
about what me want, Frank H. Titus Lee probably more

(55:16):
than men because black men got a whole different But
also to here's here's my other thing too. And even
in music, you know what I'm saying, a lot of
times I've be thinking about like somebody's R and B
singers who I know them right well, but I'm talking
about cast. But here's the here's the interest. You don't
know the sarcasm when you hear it, Miss thank you
for saying that like you. But here's the deal. There's

(55:39):
some like there's some R and B like black men
singers who are uh faking the funk, shall we say,
singing to women when they know they don't want to
be And here's the deal. And I see them. I
look at them on I G I see the Acapella Tuesday,
and I just sort of like, but it's so interesting
to me because you look at like, yeah, a lot
of cats like saying I'm really saying I do this

(56:01):
like they're trying to like and they're dope when they're no.
I follow these cats. I love singers. I think it's great.
But some of them, I'm like, dog, really, come on,
come on, brother, And a lot of them they're like,
I don't know why I'm not only yet. I don't
know I'm not only yet. And I'm just saying, like,
if you fucking came out and told your truth, maybe
motheruner will talk about you. And I don't know, ship like, oh,
let me be gay for pay. But it's like to me,

(56:23):
what Frank did Here' the other thing too, Frank he's
just dope. Okay, I really funk with his music. Really
like Blonde. I thought it was really dope. I think
that because he's living his truth, it believes into the art,
it believes into what he's doing. He can't not be
just like this authentic motherfucker even though he's like this.
You know he's a weird guy because he goes away
for too long sometimes, but there's something about it that

(56:45):
just speaks to everybody, like he's just like specialized can
and arm Kenny, Are you ready for an arm gay
R and B singer that just wants to sing and
I'm gay and I'm not singing about man? Are we ready?
Are you thinking ready? Yeah? It wasn't for us like
a big hit, so it is. But right we talked
about before we started the show. I just think with
and this deals with the thingsgiving episode, I think that

(57:07):
just conservative Black Christianity, it's such a heavy burden on everyone.
It's always like you're always every step you make is
like what would my mama thinks? Look at everything? But
once I stopped caring about what my mama thought, that's
when I really, even though like it took me obviously,
had to come out to her and I went through

(57:27):
that whole situation and we went through our thing, and
we finally have found accomfortable place to be. But I
realized in order to come out, you kind of can't
give a funk anybody thinks, because you have to prepare
yourself with your Mama may be like, okay, well you
do that and I'll be I'll be in heaven when
you're not. You know, but it's like, but but but
you have to you have to come to a place

(57:48):
where you don't care. You gotta be like, this is
my true this is who I am. How you react
to that's how you react about. Yes, I gotta say it.
So how did you convince or how did the idea
of the Thanksgiving episode? Well, it really it was born
out of me because I didn't have any plans on
telling that story because I just also didn't think it
was that fascinating. Ain't real verbati, that's a real verbatim.

(58:09):
So it's like a like, I mean, thinly built version yo.
Like I didn't even know what the episode was about,
the well because the zeas educated. But but but like, um, well,

(58:32):
I was in London filming, so uh Z's gratefully came
to me so we could write that. But sood I
had to write in three days and I had like
three days off from filming and he's like, we get
just done. So but and what we did was and
I don't know why, but we just started like we
were trying to obviously go back into like the nineties
and us coming up was like watching music videos and
um and one of them was like new Edition cast Rain,
watching D'Angelo all kind of stuff. And that's really kind

(58:54):
of how that bled into because we were like what
he was like, what did you do all the time?
And that's the real thing. When I was young, BT
used to really be about sucking music videos and we
watched the Countdown every Friday night and that's in that
so I learned a lot about like just culture and
swag and this through music videos. So we really, as
he and I both know, we wanted to incorporate one
and that one just for both of us and really
sang to us. But it came out because like Alan

(59:16):
just asked me, was like, how did you come out?
Because I was talking about dating and this and that
he asked me, and I started telling the story and
they were like this that's an episode. Look that's interesting,
and I was like is it okay? And then they
were like we want you to help write it, and
I was like, I said no. I was like, dude,
I got too much of my plate with the Spilberg movie.
I gotta put online energy into that. I'm so shy
had been officially a green at the series, yet I
was still We had a mini room, and I was

(59:38):
just like, yo's easy. I cannot spread myself like anything
er that I'm already spread right now. And he was like, well,
if you don't help me write it, then I would
feel weird writing about myself. And so I was like,
all right, man, I was like cool. I was like, well,
what is it gonna be. He's like I don't know.
He's like, we'll just we'll outline it, we'll talk about it,
we'll email back and forth. And he was a man.
We did. We just like email back and forth. His
brother and niece actually came up with the idea of
like centering it around things giving because as I told him,

(01:00:00):
I was like, I can't just do some straight line
like thirty. I gotta go through the stages. But then
as he's really like that, he's like, I like the
idea of you showing you as a kid and growing
up and this and that, so It just sort of
really happened after our conversation we had while we were
here in New York, and then I went off to
one day and we was like emailing back and forth
and just kind of came together and sucking Molina's ass

(01:00:22):
and as because they were like, let's get a bass.
I was like, both of y'all the crazy. I don't
think she knew what it was. I think I was
like they reached out to her manager and he knew
her manager knew what the show was, and I think
her manager was like, this is like a hot show,
like you should kind of do it, and it worked
out with her schedule like she like, I think she
had like a little bit of a break and they

(01:00:43):
came back like real fast. But I swear because Molina
always shoots for Millina Masuka is the amazing Millinakas who
who directed the episode. But she Lilina always shoot for
the stars because she's just like why not, who gives
a come on? Because she'd be kicking to with Swans
and Beyonce at the time, and I was, but I
was just like Molina, I was like, I don't know
what the show and you don't know who we are.
I'm like, this is fucking nuts. But Malina was like,
just let me just you know, just let me ask,

(01:01:04):
and I was like all right. But then they came
back like like they were like it's looking good, like
Angels ready than that. But then once Angela came on,
and then when she then as he's calling me, he's like,
we always call her Captain Jackson because we're obsessed with
Jackson Father Murder. He's like Katherine's like, but like, seriously,
if people knew like me and disease and each other
gives some of the Jack's five American dream all the time.
So Ran and I don't even know nothing. We're obsessed

(01:01:31):
with it and like, go to bad, what are you
gonna do? Beat him? Give me some peak. Just wanted
like ten years like that in the Temptations movie. I know,
like if you cut you cut your man out of

(01:01:52):
this group, it will kill him. A random casting question,
let's talk about it. I left very charming girl about
it was super charming. That was awesome. Realized she was
I think she was. Yeah. I mean, and here's the thing,
we knew whoever it was, we were like, we have
to have And also it's Lucy based on the real
girl I dated. Don't judge me, but but so we

(01:02:16):
we put that in and and Molina was like, oh,
I think we should get eric Amina. And I'm not
great about the love and hip hop, so I don't
really watch those shows. So I was like what look
and then um, but Malina was like no, but I
think like Malina had auditioned her, and she told me like,
Lena think she'd be great, because we was like, we
need somebody fun who can play and look, you're coming
into it's nerve wreck. I mean it's a Netflix show,
like you got a Jesus as as the Basket. There's

(01:02:38):
a lot going on, so we needed somebody that could
really handle it. And Erica was so happy to be there.
And I was remember her being like all the haters
gonna like I'm here. We had the Netflix Lena. We
and I'm going like, who the haters? What's going on?
So Felina's like, Lena, you don't know nothing. I was.
I was like, what's up? Like she's pretty girl, that's
sweet girl. But Erica was like so happy, like she's
like and she was all cuddled up. It's like, Lena,

(01:02:59):
what do you do? I was like, no, I got
somebody that got a girl, but she's very sweet, great
And then I kind of after the fact, I'm like, oh,
she's like this girl like on the show, like people
like follow her, they know I think she did it.
For a second, I was like, I need to do
my research, you know what. When it came on and
watch your all y'all of the Thanksgiving table, all I

(01:03:20):
could think about was I wonder if these people know
what this is right now that we're the fact that
And again I was wondering, does Angela know like how
massiful masters and nothing it does? Does she does? Does?
Or do you? Like? I just felt that all of

(01:03:41):
these great characters were at this table, and only as
these knew what he was cooking up, like bringing these
people together that I knew because it was really me
and Malina that really bought everybody together. You know. He
was kind of almost like, you know, he was sort
of letting us like do our thing, Like he would
leave the set for talking, like you know, he would
be an editing and uh Alan would go and I

(01:04:03):
had to convince him to get like Kim Whitley, be
that my aunt because they're like, well, she's not in
New York base and we gotta pay that. I was like,
I don't give a She's a black female comedian, single mom.
She can figure out to get to New York. Sure enough.
I called him, I'm like, can you get here? She
was like yeah, she was like, I'll figure something out.
Cut to her as books a judging gig on Top
Chef Kids. So I flew her out and you know,
she did the show. Like, but me and Molina like

(01:04:23):
we did that as he's like stood back and kind
of let us do our thing, you know, And but
that is that episode to me, every woman, and that
it's only he's the only man on the whole episode.
A lot of people don't pick up on that right away,
but it's like he's the only guy. His his character
little boys or whatever. But it's like, it's women of
color and that's what happens when you allow us to

(01:04:44):
do our things. Get the funk out the way. And
does he understand too that because for that episode, like
that episode is my way of introducing older black people
two Masters of None, right, Like I my mother, I
was like, Mommy, you're gonna love Masters and None. Let
me just show you this one episode and then and
she felt hard. And I probably watched about six or
seven times since, just like exposing people too. Oh are you?

(01:05:05):
I cried when the scene when Lisa come back, Lisa, right,
that's the final girlfriend's uh yeah, Michelle, Michelle the final girlfriend.
When they had that moment in the kitchen and like
Angela talks to her and she and they just and
then y'all are all wearing these nice like pastel colors.
You know what I mean, department, Yeah, you know I mean?

(01:05:27):
And I never, I never I thought like, oh, it
wasn't just cool. We got a really nice black episode
of Master or Not. That's perfect because I really didn't
think like it would take on that kind of life.
And that's the thing to when a Netflix show, you

(01:05:48):
don't you don't have to wait like until it comes
out with people to tweet about it, but people immediate.
But as he's always knew, because he was like, leaning
people watching this episode they love. He would text me
all the time because they would do like little screens
and stuff, and he was like, people give an episode.
And then when the Emmy happened, we just it was
like icing on the cake because we had so much
fun doing it and I'm Elina. I wrote a feature
that she's gonna direct. Like Molina is like my sister

(01:06:08):
for the rest of my life. Angela is like such
a close like she's like family to me now and
now I kim up doing this show. So it's like
really spawned these different things that you know, from that
one episode of television. Okay, am I allowed to ask
it a season three, you're allowed to ask. I don't
know the answer, you know, you know, it's you know, look,

(01:06:29):
I mean it's tough, you know, with everything that's going
on in the world, and look, I'm a I'm a
big part of you know, Tom's up and you know,
I'm uh very much, you know, an advocate of the
me to campaign. I think people should be piping up.
I know as he's you know, he was touched by it,
and uh it was not easy for for me during

(01:06:51):
that time because it's like I can't just be oh
ra ra, I'm a part of this movement, funk everything else.
Like this is someone who I'm known from all the time.
You know. It's like, you know, he really saw something
in me at the time where I didn't even think
like I would have this kind of career he he
really introduced people to me in a way. So it's like,
you know, I and he's just like my he's my friend.

(01:07:14):
You know, I can't just turn my back. I'm not
that bitch. And so I really kind of got a
real front row seat to what this means. And so
for me, it was about people like, well, who side
are you on? I'm like, but that's the thing. There
aren't any side. I feel like in this particular situation.
Howevery wine thing there's a side, Key's a side, you know,
and look, you know, I a long conversation with him.

(01:07:35):
I read everything, and I'm just like, I think there's
a lot of shades of gray here. I think a
lot of people have been in those scenarios where you've
been the guy or the girl. And I think what
I got from it, um was more about us is
having to re educate ourselves about what consent looks like,
what it feels like, what it sounds like. Um. And
I think that just means it's not gonna be fun
for everybody. But I think that's something we just kind

(01:07:57):
of have to do. We have to really make sure
it also just make sure we're being in tune with
the person that we're kicking it with and making sure
we're paying attention. They say they're cool, maybe ask again
about to say, Lena, you better watch you out too.
I'm engaged, but it was life before her though. I'm
just saying like, no, I'm good. I mean like but no,
but also too. But I'm just I'm a different kind

(01:08:18):
of chick. I'm very I'm hyper aware, you know what
I'm saying of Like I am not saying because I'm
a woman, but I just I think in terms of
you know, that's just how I get down. But I
think if you're a comedian who's maybe not always great
about paying super close to you know, I don't know
if that's but it doesn't sarily make you a bad person.
So it's just really she got really complicated, and that
was the one story I saw that people were like,

(01:08:38):
I don't really know where I fall in. Um so,
you know, but I'm happy that that's opening up a
dialogue and happy that people are talking because that's I
think the issue that motherfucker's don't talk to each other. Well,
still breaking from me. If she kicks you out big,
if you can't eat cookie, my fiance, don't allow She's like,

(01:08:58):
she don't even let me know. On the couch. She's like, no,
that's what the kitchen counter is for, and that's what
we take the shoes off when you come in the house. Okay,
to our listeners out there, we kind of to our
listeners out there, we had a pre conversation before the
tape start rolling, which I sort of complained bitterly that
sort of Yeah, my my new and last current whatever

(01:09:23):
you better say last. I love it. I put a
ring on. Ever, did ever did let me eat in
my bed? Which is a great thing to problem every
right now, wait, wait, wait, everybody listen to it right now?

(01:09:46):
Would you just say not your bed? It's because you
get there yet, hold on, you need to explain the
whole I've been on tour of my whole life, and
I'm used to for me, I'm a hotel guy. I've
been on the last twenty years of my life hotel beds,
so kind of yeah. Even before this bed I got,

(01:10:07):
all my beds were from the w hotel. Like I
love hotel life. Yeah, but those special tables to clean
up at that hotel they're coming in right, But I'm
not messy, man. It's like watching tennis. You're gonna get
something some do because I'll smoke put on you know,
all about and want to be washing in the bed.

(01:10:28):
But my lady is the only I can only do
that when she got I just yeah, I'm sorry, I
just got into it. Was the boss wanted to to
Uh it's at night, it's yeah, yeah, I'm like, no,

(01:10:55):
it's about this show right now. How you dabbing? What's happening?
Everyone agrees here that you shouldn't eat in bed. I
mean it's a little dangerous dog because yeah, do you
smoke in bed? Smoking bed? Do you smoking bed? You
would rather die and ship in the bed? Also you

(01:11:15):
get the vade. Yeah, I do vap in bed, trying
to get vapors. I mean yeah, but there's no that
doesn't count. That's what's so gird about it. You gotta
needed eating bed alone. Man, we were too old for that.
Ship kind of ask a random leaving question. Since you

(01:11:39):
went justin working on something else, does that mean that
it's the rap for Deer White People's season two? No,
season two is coming, Season two is done. That's in
the canny out in the summer. Uh, I'm back to
eating bed. I mean I don't know justin make Go
do some movies, but Dear White People was never dead.
Dear White People always gonna live forever. We always we've

(01:12:03):
always got reasons to say dear white people. Always when
we think we don't, it always comes back. Hidden Fences
reminded us of that. We were like hidden fence. So, uh,
explain before we wrap. We do want to go? When does?
The Spielberg movie March twenty nine is Ready Player one,

(01:12:25):
which is based on the bestsell the novel written by
Ernie Klein. Uh Steven Spielberg. Here's a Drink We We
We showed it to an audience for the first time
at south By, and I tried to get into that show.
I wish like somebody would have. I would have tried to,
like figure it out. Don't do that, don't do that,
don't do that, don't do that, don't do it. Don't

(01:12:46):
it's already done. She saw you on the plane chicken
to say hello. Yeah, she's like some weird stalkers. The
question I have told you like, I'm like the most
realist motherfucker aunt told me you were cooler. It wasn't
about that lantag because that's sometimes they are like five
people in this world that I'm I'm real fans of
their work in their art, and so sometimes it's hard

(01:13:08):
for me to approach you know what I mean, say,
but I'm where are we're talking now? But you know
I'll see you in a couple I see you next week.
You would have been like, yo, I'm right on this
on this story. I saw you in the eatery before
we bought it, and then I saw you sitting down
in first. Oh, that's like you see what you're sitting

(01:13:32):
in first. It's always like the whole walk is awkward,
like to figure something out. It's like, I feel bad.
I feel like a lot of people up there feel
bad because we're like we want you to have the
TV and be able to charge your phone. I want
to use your back room. Don't tell me last I'm coming.
That's why then you don't know who board I want
to be on first I can gloat at everyone. Come

(01:13:54):
on awkward, Wait wait, look at the pub. All right.
So you remember when Bone Thugs in Harmony did the
MTV Awards, when the Horses the Night the Horses MTV Awards,
they did Crossroads. So we were that night with the

(01:14:15):
Michael Jackson kissed with So I was on an airplane
at JFK and like I had that moment with bone
thugs and harmony. It was like you peasant you and
we like we went to the coach section. We have
felt all bad about ourselves. Uncle Charles all the one

(01:14:37):
was just like sitting first shake that moment when you
first class, damn. But it was just like see you
in kind of like we were peers and stuff and
you know we was no no, no not like the
security guard was like no, no, not not not right now.

(01:14:58):
So that was like yeah, So I always we were
sitting in the back, like watch one day we're gonna
ride first class. They're gonna look down with everyone when
they walked past us. So to this day, we always
make sure we pre board with the handicap people to
make sure that well, yeah, ain't that better that happen. Well,

(01:15:21):
lead to appreciate those sunglasses that you was wearing to
make yourself feel like you wasn't really there, but we
saw you first classes because like I might have been
like a little sleepy, little tired sometime to be like
trying to you know, that was on the plane one

(01:15:41):
we're going to sleep. That's why. Yeah, I just I
don't be wanting this too much. Lights much people that
have there. You know, when I was a kid, open up. Yeah, man,
I was sitting in front of a kid this. I
was like, this kid, you just seen the sun before.
I need the shade. Now. I put the blanket over
my head. I just be like John's own out. I

(01:16:05):
don't know that. You know, on a plane like that,
do a lot of white people recognize you? How does
that work? I was thinking that too. I was like,
do you get them? I mean, it's always weird. I
don't know. It's like people, well, yes, a lot of
white people for sure. Watch Master of Nothing, so like,
you know, so they but it's weird. But sometimes you
just see them. They look, they acknowledge and they go,

(01:16:25):
oh yeah, it's a girl. Sometimes I say hi. Sometimes
they want but it's all good. Sometimes they'll come from
this white story. The other was my man's was on
the flight with you from Hamilton's. I know, I should
mean so the guy that sat beside me on the
flight was like, oh my god, did you see Davie
just sitting in the first class with blah blah blah.
I was like did you see them le wait to
sit in the first class. He was like who. I
was like, oh my god, she's the first black woman
that when I even that didn't speak that. I didn't

(01:16:51):
oh ship you even I said, I don't know like that.
I was like, brother, just figuring when you were talking
about the ready player of one premiere. Yeah, and I
want to hear like you because I had a friend
that was there and she told me about like the
sound speakers. We blew the speakers. It was like, it's

(01:17:14):
like it's a very like big freaking movie. It's like
a blockbuster movie. That's what it is. And so Spilberg
he went in and it's like the speakers blew. And
the good news was everybody was so captivated that with
the speaker of the sound went out, motherfucker's lost that ship.
They're like no, because a very critical point. And then
we tried it again. The sound still wouldn't play. There
like oh my god. And then the third time when

(01:17:35):
they played and the sound went through, like everybody like
there was a a little like standing ovation because they
were ready to see how the movie ended. But they
it was just a phenomenal experience and to sit in
the theater with those people and like as excited as
they were. And obviously Stephen came out and surprised everybody.
But it was just a phenomenal, phenomenal energy that first
time watching it. That was my second time watching, but
my second time watching with it felt like the first

(01:17:55):
time because the first time you watch it, you're at
the Warner Brothers lot, like there's like exact and stuff,
so it's like at but standing it with these people
like it blew my mind was out front. Well, yeah,
because Ernie Klein d I was a Delorian. He pulled
up in that motherfucker. And working with Steven Spielberg is like,
did you heaven Heaven, Heaven on Earth over the Deloyan
or just with Steven Spielberg. Well, here's the thing. You

(01:18:18):
gotta play it cool. It's fine. Have you ever nerded?
Because I imagine that you play cooler than thou with
any situation that you're in. Yeah, and that gets you
in the rooms better than nerd and that, But have
you ever just lost your ship over someone that you met, Like,
you know, I kind of did it a little bit
with Hallie when I like, you know, it's funny because

(01:18:38):
I had met her a couple of times, but like
we were well, it's weird because she at that point
she knew me and she's likely this is my friend.
I was like, what something. It was Oscar night and
we were at the Vandy Fair party and it was
like the Oscars had happened as I was at the party,
and I just I just had to tell her. I
was like, your Oscar speech like really made me feel
like I could do anything. And I was like, so
for me to be a first on the Emmy stage, um,

(01:19:02):
I just I just couldn't help but think of you,
and I wanted to be as eloquent in my sweet
as you were in yours. And that to me was
like it was And then I just started saying like yo, man,
I owned losing Isaiah on DVD and I remember watching
Alex Haley's Queen. You know, she was so good and
I said, I said, I still can't believe you played

(01:19:23):
se Can Feel with Robin Gibbons and Boomerang like, and
she was just like let my feet. I said, it
was like, oh, here we go. Like I just started
coming out. I was just like, bit, you mean something
to us like your icon. She was like really I
was like, yes, like no, I think sometimes she's like
what's up? No, thank you? She don't like she's like

(01:19:46):
like I don't know what was it. I was like, yo,
halle a deal. Yeah, I just think like home, I'm
just I was like, yo, how you mean a lot
to us? And I was like you should always know
that And she's like I was shower see that there's
like thank you, but you could tell like she really
was like, oh girl, like I appreciate that, but like
she's still like she's dope, but she hasn't. She's really

(01:20:06):
had a really great career continuous to have a really
dope career. But she's just amazing. She's amazing. So I
kicked out. I geeked out on her. Said the same
thing to Crease Summer. I would. I would geek out
over Creed too, And I've met her like we've been
at like NBCBM wards together whatever. But if I had
an opportunity, I was like, yo, Cree, y'all had that
crush when you got with Ron like the press, that

(01:20:29):
was an odd storyline. We talked about that. She was
like that she was odd. Don't I didn't. I did,
I didn't ask she went straight into a lawyer and
then it was yo, I want to talk to you
about but here's the Tear's the realty. I think it
actually made sense because it's kind of like that's how
it is with this person that can't you kind of
can't stand and get on your nerves. But also it
made it's like they were very different people when they

(01:20:51):
were in college and they didn't get together until after
they had both graduated. Although her and shas Are were
lit her and shas Are but also her Shaws. I
made it was so made so much since like, of
course something they look like brother and sister. So with
her and Wrong, I thought it was kind of hot.
I didn't get wrong because I don't. I just don't
believe light skin on light skin love work. They well,

(01:21:12):
I didn't like him and Kim. Him and Kim didn't
work at all like him. You can tell that that
the writers were like, wouldn't this be? I think it
was just you know, Kim had lost all the episode
when she revealed herself your mama, Like, Steve, have you

(01:21:35):
ever watched in Different World? No, it's too black and
black it is. It is really black. It's not as
black as I'm a star, but it's black. It's black?
Wait is it on thee tunes? What a different world?
It's I think it's yeah, yes, but you can buy itself. Okay,

(01:21:56):
I watched on my TV Classic Classic. I watched the shot.
I watched the first two episodes like I watched I
think I watched first episodes over over your house when
we were l a and then finally when I knew
you were coming out, like okay, let me get the
rest of them down because let me do my homework.
You know what I'm saying, Because I really did like
the first two and I but then just like shooting,

(01:22:17):
so I was like one thing I really like. It
was one and you have a part of me because
I'm terrible with character names. I know the actors, but
I know the characters. So one thing that really rang
true to me, it was a scene where you showed
the kid Alex the real his scene where he's trying
to get with the girl and he has a crush

(01:22:39):
on the girl and so he goes this sister and
his sister is like, oh, you gotta respect women. You
gotta do this and don't just tell her eyes pretty whatever.
But then you showed another scene where he's riding with
Red and Ranch tells him something completely that yeah, and
that like rang so true to like as a kid,

(01:23:01):
like as a boy, like you know, you'll see your
mom might tell you one thing, then your uncle that
got all the holes. It's like, well, don't know, yeah,
well yeah, And I think that's what we really try
to do. It's just trying to like be as honest
and as authentic as we possibly can and and just

(01:23:21):
really show like black life. And I feel like that's
a part of it. Like dudes, don't they learned about
how to be with women from other dudes. And we
feel like Red, who was sort of like, you know,
he's that dude. He's a runner. He out here, you know,
working for people, and he feels like what would he
say to a car full of three one of the
one a little brother and other boys, and we feel
like this is what he was at. He would say
like mans, oh, those kids are phenomenal and Papa is

(01:23:47):
real Chicago boy, you know, and just a lot of personality,
a lot of swag, and they really were grateful to
them because that's what we get to have, the levity.
But also, you know, we deal with the real ship,
you know, with the character of Jake, who was obviously
sort of Red Bigger brother. When we see how the
gangsters are born, you know a lot of people think like, oh, yeah,
this little black boys are born with like guns in
their hands. We're like, no, it's it's it's nurture, you know,

(01:24:10):
not nature. And I think that's sort of my you know,
I'm missing the show. And also sometimes you can have
you can be a part of that environment and go
the opposite way. Whenever people get all freaked out about Chicago,
I'm like, I'm I'm probably Chicago, So it's a chance.
So it's common. So Jennifer Husson, you know, so it's
like we So it's Quincy Jones, you know what I mean.
So it's like easy, you know, like we that's also
what that environment can produce as well. There was one, uh,

(01:24:33):
just a question I can't again his name, Stephen. Uh.
How did y'all get him? Because he's my favorite character.
He kills every scene. He's well, we kind of really wanted,
like those kind of guys used to be around my

(01:24:53):
house to live with my grandmother coming up, so those
kind of cats are always around my heart with these
old dudes were like you know who you know where
the sucking the silk shirts and the fedoras or whatever.
I think they too cool for school. And so I
really kind of wanted to have that element of Chicago,
like that kind of like O g like who used
to run the streets? Yeah. Um, I always knew the

(01:25:14):
Pam's rich boyfriend from the episode of Martin. You know,
he's like the sky bus. He was, Oh, yeah, we
all have, but like but I was like, we gotta

(01:25:34):
have that element of like what Chicago streets used to be,
Like there was a code, there was an honor because
we kept hearing that from a lot of Um we
would just talk to like cats of Chicago who maybe
who have been, you know, in the streets or whatever,
and they were like, there used to be a code
and like now there isn't and that's the difference. And
so we kind of want to show that character and
you'll see how well now if you if you're caught up,
you know how he's connected to the story. I'm gonna

(01:25:56):
talk about it, but um, and then the finale is
if you liked him, like the finality is gonna really
be dope. I was gonna ask how in the in
the age of the piloty the political climate we're in now,
we're people so quick to say what about Chicago, Like
they're really concerned about Chicago. I mean, how heavy does

(01:26:20):
that weigh on your mind when you're as far as
how this show is presented to us? Because even for me,
maybe the first five minutes when I started watching the pilot,
part of me was like, Okay, I'm I'm waiting for
I'm waiting for the gratuitous violence. That's just what we know,
you know. And actually, what what were your opinions as
a Chicago filmmaker, What were your opinions on Shirak? Well,

(01:26:45):
I mean, here's the thing. It's like, I feel like
everybody has a right. Spike's been on the show before,
so you know, we have beef with it. But wow, okay,
well look, I mean at the end of the day,
and I'm sure I'm not the first person to say this,
but I wouldn't be sitting here if it weren't a Spike,
you know, Like I watched the ship and like, you know,
it's like that's this he wear all his sons and daughters,
whether we like it or not, And My thing is

(01:27:06):
he has a right to tell a story about Chicago.
The tough thing is is like you're gonna get a
unique story from him because he's not from there. Like
if I told a story about New York, it may
not feel like New York because I ain't come up,
you know, over here. So I think, and I think
what he was trying to do was just bring attention
to what was going on. And also he did it

(01:27:26):
through his lands and through his vibe and how he
gets down. So I would never attack the movie. Um,
I just think for me when I know again my
on the movie it's a series, but this is Chicago
through my lens, and I think both are valid. But
people can also have a right to say I don't
funk with Shirak and I funk with the shot that's there, right,
Or some people may say I don't funk with the
shot I like Shy rack More. That's their prerogative. So

(01:27:49):
I think ultimately we all have a right to make story,
to make a movie or a TV show about a
particular place. I think it's just a matter of you know,
I want to just my ship. I wanted to be
grounded as for real as fuck Um, that was my mission.
I was like, how can I make sure and also
I think there's ways we could be better about that
in season two. Um, and that's my mission as well,
to make it black or to make it more authentic,

(01:28:10):
to make it more rooted in the city. Um, because
that's my goal is just to get a really accurate
snapshot of the city, not a super positive one, not
a super violent one. Because we don't shy away from
violence on the show, like we we we approach it up,
didn't It didn't feel because I'm just like, that's not

(01:28:30):
all Chicago is. You know, Chicago's also block parties. Chicago's
also a little kids, you know, not crossing certain blocks.
That was a big thing for me. Like my mom
was like, okay, you can't go past that street, Like okay,
So I want to incorporate that into the show. It's
full of grandmother's you know, it's full of like Chicken.
I can't remember his name, you know, our little hero's Chicken.
You know, it's like and you got people because this
was my experience where people who were in the community

(01:28:50):
who I wasn't related to, feel very much like my
family because they saw him we come up they would
look out for me, that contribute to my college fund,
like all that kind of stuff. I think that's the
thing I really want to get across my Chicago is
that we really are very familiar with very much like
a communityybody have been to Chicago, Like it feels like
a small town, and I think that people don't get
where they were in where ms Ethel is talking to

(01:29:13):
I can't remember the other the nurse, his mom, his mom,
and she's like, get me my my cigarettes. Yeah, I
knew what it was. I was like and she and
you know, she thought shes a cigarettes, but that was
where she kept her money. That was my grandmother, you
know what I'm saying, not with banks, and I think

(01:29:33):
and that's to me, there's a homeliness that I'm trying
to bring to the show and to show people the
city and they just haven't seen before because it's like
I'm from there, like I know those people, and my
mom still lives there. You know, my family sell in Chicago.
So I'm always gonna have a connection to it in
a way that the other filmmakers just won't. And that's
cool question. When are you gonna exact produce the two
one five, look at him, speechless. Welcome back. I have

(01:30:05):
enough on my on my plate. I'm still trying to
exactly produce get a piece of chat with Sugar. So uh, well,
you know, I do you have anything else? I do not.
She's one about two one five? Oh no, no, no,
I'm good. Okay, thank you. I was about to say that, Yeah,

(01:30:25):
thank you, Lena. Please don't go anywhere. I ain't gonna
where I might back up. You may not ask my favorite.
You always heard my works. I's gonna hear your voice
as long as I can hear your voice sound good.
I just keep coming back on the podcast, keep doing it. Well,
we thank you very much for coming on the show,
having they don't on behalf of Sugar Steve host of

(01:30:45):
a Chat with Sugar, Bills at the proprietor of no
news is good news, and also uh it's like yeah
uh and thank you leaving for coming on the show
this quest love, we will see you or the next
ground and shout out to Boss Bill. Yeah better bossil

(01:31:06):
go to urgent kill sleep und Craig mac all right
and the other guy good day okay hawking, Yeah, only
on this podcast with Craig back and that white dude
who knew the sign from Simpsons? A man, how you

(01:31:30):
gonna do that sign? Oh my god? Wait, wait, wait,
time out, Wait a minute. You're Stephen Hawking references from
his episode of The Simpsons. Wow, I don't I knew
who he was before you got a movie black. I
love the theory of it. I can't even play everything now.

(01:31:52):
I already shut down with my machine. That is awesome. Anyway,
all right, yeah, shout out to Craig Mac and Stephen
and Matt listen is fine, Yeah, so we will. This
is the only podcast to close off we saw would

(01:32:13):
like shot out to Craig Man like no, r I
P I feel like a gangsterlin by drs and post.
All right, we'll see all the next round. What's Love Supreme.

(01:32:41):
It's a production of I Heard Radio. This classic episode
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from My Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app,
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