Questlove Supreme: Rick Astley

Rick Astley tells Questlove Supreme about rekindling an appreciation for his biggest hit, "Never Gonna Give You Up." He also discusses leaving the industry for over a decade, saving money, and discovering the Rick-Roll from a friend.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Quest Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. Ladies and gentlemen,
Welcome to another episode of Quest Love Supreme. Quest Love
your host Sexually. Have we ever a tag team? Ticolo?
I don't think we have.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
Thanks, this is.

Speaker 1 (00:22):
The it's the tag teamages of fun Tikeolo in Quest Love.
How you doing, man? How's your week? Then?

Speaker 2 (00:30):
It's hectic?

Speaker 1 (00:32):
But I did. Are you about to talk about it?

Speaker 3 (00:37):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (00:38):
Yeah, yeah yeah, I mean yeah.

Speaker 4 (00:40):
We had our first like little brother show in like
two years over the like last weekend.

Speaker 1 (00:45):
How was that?

Speaker 2 (00:47):
It was insane, very surreal.

Speaker 4 (00:49):
Afterwards, I had these two kids come up to the
meet and we're like, this is the greatest show we've
ever seen. Two white girls seventeen and her sister who
was twelve. Wow, that was the first. The toy year
old she said it was the first show she'd ever
been to ever. And I was sitting there talking with
my home girl er Lette, and were just sitting there

(01:10):
and I was like hi.

Speaker 2 (01:11):
They was like, oh my god, you guys were getting
so high.

Speaker 1 (01:13):
It was so great.

Speaker 2 (01:14):
And I love the pink. I love you in the
pink shirt. We love the pink. I was like, Okay,
thanks for the fashion to you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (01:21):
But how did they know they even see you? Well,
both of them were younger than your career, straight.

Speaker 2 (01:27):
Up I got albums older than both of them.

Speaker 4 (01:28):
So they were We were opening for a band called
silvan Eso and they pick up to them that's fine.

Speaker 1 (01:35):
So yes.

Speaker 4 (01:36):
So they did like a three night kind of festival
thing in Durham and we were like the support act
for night too, and yeah, man, we came out there
and you know, it was our first show.

Speaker 2 (01:48):
Me and Pool put the set together like the night before.

Speaker 4 (01:50):
It was like, okay, we do this, do that, do that,
and we went out there and at the end of
the show, towards the end. Normally we were asked at the beginning,
but for this night, we asked it the end. We
was like, how many was your first time seeing little
brother for the first time, and like the hands went up.
They had no idea who we were, but like we
rocked that shit and so it was. It was crazy.
It was like to be you're now a twenty year veteran,

(02:12):
straight up no bro facts, Like twenty years in to
still be picking up new fans, that is that's kind
of surreal.

Speaker 2 (02:19):
And I'm noticing too that post COVID crowds.

Speaker 1 (02:22):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (02:22):
And Rick, we can ask you about it as well
if you want to win.

Speaker 4 (02:25):
It seems to me like post COVID concert crowds and
pre COVID concert crowds are two different things, yes, because
like everybody's high, everybody's high.

Speaker 3 (02:34):
Yeah, I'm just I mean, I remember the first gig
we did. Hi, by the way, I remember the first
gig we did.

Speaker 1 (02:40):
I'm gonna introduce you for Goohead. This is like this
is the cold Open.

Speaker 3 (02:45):
Okay, that's good. Yeah, first gig we did in the UK.
And that first gig was kind of crazy because we
did it at a place called Networth, which is a
legendary country house if you like, just outside of London,
and it's been amaze see gigs done there. But we
played to about two and a half thousand people instead
of two hundred and fifty thousand people because they all

(03:06):
brought their car and they had a picnic space and
so they all sat in their cars or on the
bonnet of their car, the roof of the car, and
they were all given a picnic space. So it went
on for about a mile of this this thing. But
it was amazing because when the sun went down, everyone
was using their car lights to sort of say yeah, yeah, yeah,
and it was amazing. So it was a really strange gig.

(03:27):
But I could see, especially in the crew and the
people who'd been building the stage and you know what
I mean, and everything you could see people were really
really emotional. I mean, being on stage is an emotional
thing full stop, but being on stage in front of
a crowd after that, all that time that was it
was amazing, absolutely incredible, and we did a few that
summer that were just just amazing. You know. It just

(03:49):
made you feel lucky, made you feel i don't know,
like a newfound respect for being allowed to do what
you do.

Speaker 2 (03:56):
You know, it was very much like watching the route.

Speaker 4 (04:00):
It was not versus in the past where you would
see people kind of in their bodies for lack of
a better word, where it's like.

Speaker 2 (04:07):
Throw your hands up, scream shot whatever. It's like all
of that.

Speaker 4 (04:10):
You can just see them just kind of in their heads,
like they're just watching it and like, you know, like
just kind of taking it in and they're enjoying, they're
having a ball, but they're just in their heads, just
kind of watching it. And yeah, that was definitely something
I noticed. I'm like, okay, yeah, these post COVID shows,
in the pre COVID this it's a whole different.

Speaker 1 (04:31):
Well that said, ladies and gentlemen, I will say that
our guest is probably beyond just fame. Okay, So he's
a musician, singer, songwriter from the UK. I like to
say the UK, like I'm from the UK. I only
lived there for four years, but I make people from
the UK actually think that, you know that I'm an actual,

(04:51):
like lifelong resident there, you know. And he came into
our radar, at least my radar for a lot of
us here in the States, you know, of course in
the late a and made it absolutely impossible to forget
his music. And I'll say that's an actual achievement. And
even to this day, those singles, very strong, very potent
singles are dropped and it's instant happiness and joy, you know,

(05:16):
and even going has so much to say, I'll be
it kind of an unusual achievement, but I will well,
I'll ask you, fante, if Michael Jackson owns Halloween and
Mariah Carrey owns Christmas, I almost think that our guess
today might own April Fool's Day, which is kind of

(05:38):
a weird quote to say. And you know, I'm not
even implaning that our guess is a joke or his
music is a joke. Far from it. But you know,
for clarification purposes, I'll say that, you know, we all
live in the the you know this like the twenty
twenty fifth year of really the internet sort of in
our lives, and I think I would say that the

(05:59):
first mean he yes, exactly.

Speaker 4 (06:01):
They have been the first what we now know is
Internet being cultured, Like, yes, that's the first one.

Speaker 2 (06:07):
I think. I think he really was originating.

Speaker 1 (06:10):
Well, definitely one of the earliest examples of the sticky
factor as we you know, as something viral, you know,
which in the eyes of gen Z like that's that's
a serious achievement our I guess, yes, it's it's the same.
You know, you're you're, you're you will be here forever,
long after we're going from Earth, you know. And in

(06:30):
the fact that even his name can imply, you know,
not only being a proper nown but you know, to
be rick rolled is to is the new Oki dokie
falling for the ok having successfully pulled the prank I'll
say that in my research, I didn't realize that YouTube
themselves when they you know, established in two thousand and seven,

(06:54):
two thousand and eight, YouTube themselves actually invented what we
call rick rolling. For the two three of you that
don't know what rick rowling means, it's the thing where
someone shares a serious video with you and then about
twelve seconds and your hit with again the irresistible course
of never going to give you up. And you know,

(07:15):
I will say that probably during the pandemic, I'm giving
a shout out to my pal jin Grabel from Philadelphia,
who is one of the biggest rig Ghastly fans ever.
I've fallen down a vicious rabbit hole and looking at
all anything that you do in concert, she'll instantly send me, so,

(07:35):
you know, to see these Springsteen covers are born to run,
and your Nirvana covers and you know, the everything from
your food fighters to a CDC covers you on drums,
all these things you covering, like the Smith songs, Like
I'm really genuinely this, you know, I had to have
you on the show because I've like discovered a rekindled

(07:58):
fandom for our guests to day that goes way beyond,
just like you know the Rickrolling part of his career,
but you know there's a long time coming. So welcome
to your quest of Supreme. This is Rick Astley. Thank
you for joining us.

Speaker 3 (08:11):
Man, Thank you. It's a pleasure to be Thanks for
that extraordinary introduction as well. I'll take that on board
in a very heartfelt way. So it's nice to be.

Speaker 1 (08:23):
Well, we mean it. Where are you right now?

Speaker 3 (08:26):
Right now? We're between Vegas and Fresno. I'm on tour
right now. I got invited last year to come to
America and do a tour with Are you ready for this?
New kids on the block on Vogue as I call
them on Vogue. I've been told you've got to say
en Vogue. I'm like, no, I'm European. It's on Vogue
and Salt and Pepper. And we're having a lot of fun,

(08:49):
i can tell you. And we had a day off yesterday,
which is which is always nice obviously me in Vegas,
we hade a bit fun. But the gigs have just
been amazing and it's very unusual for me because I
haven't done anything like this, certainly in America anyway, where
you get a group of artists together and go out
and do that. I have done it in Europe a
different places, but I've never really been to America and

(09:10):
do it. And obviously it's we're just having a ball
right now. So I'm on my bus right now heading
to Fresno.

Speaker 1 (09:16):
So that that also explains the video that came out
with the four of you bring Back the Time.

Speaker 3 (09:24):
Yeah, yeah, I believe.

Speaker 1 (09:25):
Yeah, so's so weird because normally, you know, I'll see
package tours and acts get together and you know, they
might interact with each other whatever. But the fact that
you guys got together to sort of collaborate and no
one saw this coming, Like, could you explain the genesis
of how that came to be? Who put it together?

Speaker 3 (09:46):
So yeah, so we've got a phone call and do
you want to come and do the mixtape tour? And
for me, I was kind of like, well, America is
a very different ball game. For me. It's I grew
up listening on what in America and doing gigs here.
Doing gigs here was always kind of like one of
the pinnacle things. You know, having some records on the

(10:07):
radio here was always an amazing thing because I know
then whether they liked them or not, whether they liked
my voice or not. I know Luther Vandrossad might me sing.
I know Al Green did, Bill Withers did, and those
guys unknowingly taught me to sing, you know what I mean.
So I kind of I always been Coming to America
is an amazing thing. With the MIXTEP tour is something

(10:27):
completely different because the New Kids fans are absolutely crazy
and I'm truly sure they know by now because we've
done a few gigs. But I meet that with a
lot of love. But they're absolutely crazy. So when I
kind of google googled the previous mixtape tours and the
fans and the everything, I spoke to Donnie Donny Walburg
quite a bit about it, and I just so, you
know what, let's just do it. We're gonna have a

(10:48):
lot of fun. It's not normal in the sense that
because it's a mixtape. I go on sing some songs
and then I hang around backstage and I watched the
guys on I'm at the side of the stage watching
different artists, and then I kind of get ready to
go back at stage. You're going to do it again,
and I've never done that. It's kind of a it's
much more of a show in that respect.

Speaker 1 (11:08):
Interact a review.

Speaker 3 (11:09):
Yeah, yeah, exactly, And Johnny walked me through that, and
he talked me through that and explained how they do it.
And so I think once you get over that and
kind of realize what it is as opposed to going
up and opening for an artist and doing your forty
five minutes, doing your hour, and then going off and done,
it's a totally different thing. And also one of the
things that I have huge respect for them for doing this.

(11:30):
They open the gig, they go on first, and then
they introduce, and then they introduce an artist. Tell me
a headline act in the world. Who does that?

Speaker 1 (11:39):
A meal? I'd about to say I pioneered this, Okay, no, no, no, no,
but I no no ideas original. But you know, I
always hated the ideal of like someone goes on first,
someone goes on second, which is you know, which I'm
also kind of I know it's comedy, but oh d

(12:00):
l monique thing, because I just think that, you know,
it's more unique to do. Motown reviews used to be
that way, like three songs from CV, three songs from
the Supremes, three songs to and then people come back
and interact. So I've been I've been doing that for
like twenty years, and I'm finally when you said that,
I was like, ah, finally someone else is doing it.

(12:21):
That's dope. Even up until twenty seventeen, eighteen, and nineteen,
there will be occasional towns in which the roots and
new Kids on the Block will be in the same
hotel and absolutely nothing has changed. Like now, you know,
Donnie told me, like, you know, back in the day,

(12:43):
it was it was the mother's trying to hook up
the daughters. But now it's like you have daughters taking
their mothers to new Kids on the Block shows and
they're hanging around the hotel.

Speaker 3 (12:56):
Yeah, well there's a lot I'm telling you what has
kind of shocked me a little bit. Of course, most
of the audiences of an age because they were there
for the first records, they bought the first records, they
went on all the tos. But I'm telling you, it's
kind of odd. There's a lot of younger people in
that audience and they know all their tunes and they
are like fully paid up members of being the blockhead
family and everything, and it's really nice to see. But

(13:17):
I think you know we're talking. You guys were talking
about the internet before. That's just changed the way that
everybody listens to music obviously and gets their music, but
also the way they feel about it. And they don't
sometimes have the same thing that I certainly did when
I was a kid about Oh, that's for old people.
And I don't think older people are afraid to go

(13:40):
and say, well, you know what, I want to go
and see this artist, even though I'm old enough to
be their mom or dad. I just want to go
and see them. And I think that that generational thing
has gone away to a great degree. You know, well,
I just think the festival thing, if you look at that,
it's so plectical these days. Who you can be on

(14:02):
before or after or on the next stage. It's just unbelievable.
So when you look at the audience there's a bit
of that as well, you know, it's it's it's a
random bag of people that just want to wear music,
you know, don't really Yeah, so it's I think it's
quite a beautiful thing, to be honest.

Speaker 1 (14:18):
Now I do too.

Speaker 4 (14:18):
I think this like with the audience now, you know,
because no one has to pay for music anymore. I
think that it's just pretty much they have the room
to explore in a.

Speaker 1 (14:29):
Way that we didn't.

Speaker 4 (14:30):
You know what I mean, if we had to go
to the record store you had ten dollars, Yeah, ten
dollars was a choice, you know what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (14:36):
You had to make real decisions.

Speaker 4 (14:38):
But now you know, with everything available, they just hear music,
you know, And I saw that. That was what I
started to get, Like, they don't even think, like my
kids and my sons, like, they don't even look in
terms of genre or anything. If they like it, they
like it and that's all they know, and that's all
they care about.

Speaker 3 (14:55):
I think the other thing is they don't they don't
actually care if the artist is dead. And I don't
think that in a callous ware and no emotion where
they're just like, I love this, What is it? Oh
it's Frank Sonatra. Oh really do you know who? Frank
Socenarta was not really well coming on? A look at
this and I'll explain it to you.

Speaker 4 (15:10):
Yeah, there no more context, there's no more new music
and all music it's just music, you know, in music,
that's it, right?

Speaker 1 (15:16):
Yeah, So can you tell us where in the UK
were you born? I'm assuming that you were born in
the UK, where were you born?

Speaker 3 (15:23):
Yeah, No, I was. I was. I was born in
a very very small town and it's equidistant from Liverpool
and Manchester. It's right in the middle of both of them.
It's about twenty miles either side. That town is called
Newton the Willows and that is hyphenated as in Newton
in the Willows. It sounds a lot posher than it
actually is. It's okay. It was an okay place to

(15:43):
go up and everything. And my sister still lives there
and my mum up until she passed away, recently lived
there and it's an okay town. But it's a small town.
And we then, so for us go into either of
Manchester or Liverpool was our way of going to a
shop might have some actual trendy clothes or you know,
more than one record store, do you know what I mean?

(16:05):
Where you could go to like four of that, you know.
And obviously the first time we really went to stores
to go and look at musical instruments, that was in Manchester.
Because you know, you jumped on the train or you
got you know, an older brother sister to take you
and you went into Manchester. That was our big deal.

Speaker 1 (16:19):
With you know, I see. Can you tell me what
your first musical memory was.

Speaker 3 (16:26):
It's hard to say, obviously for anybody. I know. The
jungle Book record was a massive thing for me. I mean,
our kids love Disney and they love music because it's
because it's amazing. The quality of it is always great.
They're still doing great music, I think for the jungle Bug.
For me, we had that vinyl record at home and
I'm the youngest of four, so my sister was into

(16:48):
all kinds of music. She used to go and watch
a lot of what she used to watch everything. She
going to Manchester, Liverpool, and so she had a really
great record collection. But a lot of her music was
like there was a lot of progressive rock in it,
but she'd also have like quite a bit of Bowie
which she'd have a lot of American classic soul as well,
Marvin Gay, Stevie Wonder obviously, things like that. She loved

(17:09):
the Beatles as well, So I broke with a lot
of that. But I wanted the jungle Book because obviously
to me, I've been taken to the movies to see
the film, and once you've seen a film like that
and then you've got the vinyl of it at home,
you can you can plan to watch the movie again
in your head, can't you. I just loved it, and
that's so for me that I probably just sat there
waiting for everyone to leave the room and then got

(17:30):
my moment to put because we probably had one record
player when I was five years old, do you know
what I mean? That was probably it so, But I
think in terms of I just went to see Paul
McCartney actually a week or so ago in Fort Work
in Dallas, and a lot of the Beople's music as
for anybody obviously, of course for everybody on the planet,

(17:51):
but it was a bit of a game change in
some of those records, I think, even as a really
young kid, because a lot of their music at certain
times has got a lot of childlike quality to it.
There is we all, there's all, there's we all live
in a yellow submarine in there. And that's so that
as a kid, that brings you in, do you know
what I mean? And then all of a sudden you're
listening to I don't know the Holestalgic Pepper or what
I've been thinking, what is this? But it's when I

(18:15):
say childlike I don't mean that in any geogratory obviously.
I mean there's a real innocence to some of their stuff,
even though it becomes really complicated and intricate and beautiful
as well, there's a real simplicity to it at times,
you know. So, so I think the Beatles were quite
an easy one to get into as well well.

Speaker 1 (18:32):
Because they were they were influenced by you know, timpan Alley,
which you know that that sort of era of music,
a timpan Alley is closer to show tunes and.

Speaker 2 (18:42):
Your musical stuff.

Speaker 3 (18:44):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (18:46):
And you know, it's it's rather genius that you can
create music that an eight year old that can stick
to an eight year old and an eighty year old
at the same time.

Speaker 3 (18:56):
Absolutely, yeah, and seems hip.

Speaker 1 (18:58):
Do you remember the the first music that you purchased
yourself with your own money?

Speaker 3 (19:04):
Well, it wasn't money exactly. My dad had given me
some money to go and buy a pair of jeans,
right and there was a store. This wasn't in Manchester
or Liverpool. This is a local town. Tour was a
small town. There's a little store that so told jeans
and all kinds of different things that kids would wear.
You know, and he gave me the money and I
went in and I bought the jeans. I was probably

(19:25):
only about nine years old of this, but he's probably
outside in the car waiting for me, kind of thing.
And I went in saying nine I could have whatever.
Went in and it also had like a little record
store as part of it, which was a bit bizarre,
I guess, but whatever, And you bought a pair of
jeans on that day and they allowed you to have
a single. So I went in next door and I'm
just looking. I had no clue, and I knew my

(19:47):
dad was in the car like waiting, and he's like
he's not going to be messed around, you know. So
I just said, I'll have what other's number one? Please?
And it was luckily it was I Feel Loved by
Donna Summer. So I got a great record out of it. Anyway. Yeah,
but that but that wasn't my so I was eleven.
Now I think that it wasn't necessarily a choice, and

(20:10):
it wasn't really my money, if you know what I mean.
It sort of came with the pair of jeans. But
it was quite It was quite a thing because when
I went home, I suddenly kind of realized I own
this record. It's not one of my brothers or my sisters.
This is mine, do you know what I mean? Because
all I've done really was just pinched their records and
just played them. You know, That's all I've done up
to that point.

Speaker 1 (20:27):
So at least by that point did you have a
singing voice? Were you?

Speaker 3 (20:33):
I was always picked to be in school plays. I
was in a church choir as well. But it's not
as you guys will know. It's not a gospel or anything.
It's a very very Church of England and very kind
of straight and white like you know that. But it's
still singing with other people, and that I still think
that thing of a choral group of people making that
that I'm going to say, noise. I'm not even to

(20:55):
fall like music right now. Just making that noise together
is the most what's the word to use, It's the
most sort of primeval way of making music because you know,
when you take away the organists, and I remember we
used to do that. We used to sing just on
our own a lot of the time, especially when he
was like getting us through different pieces to learn them
and everything. It's just a bunch of people using this

(21:17):
to make a noise, and it's quite I'm not saying
I used that at all today, but I think it's
still it did something to me, even though on dinner
for a couple of years, but it definitely made me
aware of the fact that a group of people come
together harmonize or not and what have you, and make
music and that's and there's no even instrument to go through,
do you know what I mean? And I even think

(21:39):
from a timing point of view, because I got into
playing drums as a little kid and stuff, and we
say little kid, I was probably in the teenage years.
If you're not in sync and in time as a choir,
it's just a mess. And I think that even sort
of got me going a bit with you know, got
to be on the river, you know, on the beat
and everything. You know.

Speaker 1 (21:57):
So basically singing with a choir taught you how to
blend with other voices.

Speaker 3 (22:03):
And I guess, yeah, I mean, I'm still not very
good at that now, to be honest, I'm one of
those archetypal kind of big head from a person singers
that when I'm try and do harmonies, I'll do the
harmony and I'm great and then at some part I
go off lost it now and I start singing the yeah,
because I find it really hard to do it. And
even when I do, you know, when I'm working on

(22:23):
something at home and I'm just putting harmonies in and stuff,
sometimes have to map them out on a piano and
then bang them into my head, you know, I mean
literally to be able to get me singing the harmony.
So yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (22:34):
So so by the mid seventies, and I've heard, you know,
this narrative from people that grew up in London at
the time. I mean, so many types of music sort
of avenues could be traveled by, Like of course, you know,
the the punk movement is you know, is ramping up.

(22:58):
Then the sort of I guess you could say mod
movement or or you know, whatever they call Rudy's or
whatever you would categorize the specials or madness that those
types of whatever sky groups or whatever. And then of course,
you know, I know about the history of Northern soul
and generally just you know, the respect that the UK

(23:21):
has for soul music in general. And of course you
know seventy seven is where disco is also having its moment.
What grabbed you? I mean to be eleven at that time,
when there's like five options to go to. Yeah, yeah,
what grabbed you the most?

Speaker 3 (23:41):
I think. I think I've always still I always have
responded to singers full stop, because I think as much
as I admire I mean, you know, possible getting to that,
I don't know, but I mean, because I started playing
drums as a kid, I always loved fans that had
interesting drummers. So the Police that he loved, and they
weren't punk, but they sort of came out of the thing.

(24:04):
Phil Collins is one of my all time favorite drummers
and he's not even remembered as a drummer at the time.
It's ridiculous. But anyway, but they go, they go. I
know that. I think certainly with my sister, played a
lot of Motown at home, and a lot of Northern
Soul as well, actually, and they're very, very very similar.
And to be honest, I struggled to find out which

(24:24):
is which half the time, but whatever, and all of
those records and very much about the vocals. I mean,
you were mentioned in Motown before about when they used
to go out and do tours and stuff like a
review tour and stuff. Any one of those vocalists would,
in my opinion anyway, kind of wipe the floor with
a lot of people who've had the chance to make

(24:45):
records since. To be honest, I think Motown was an
absolute golden era for vocalists. Was even though the songwriters
and producers of those records were incredible and amazing and
they had such a platform to go from as a singer,
those voices have stood the test of time forever, and
I don't think there's a person with a pulse that

(25:07):
doesn't respond to Motown. And obviously it's the groove, it's
the feel, it's everything. It's also because Marvin Gay, Diana Ross, whatever,
you know, name any of them, when they sang you
didn't question it at all. It was just truly amazing.

Speaker 1 (25:27):
Do you have a memory of your first concert.

Speaker 3 (25:30):
I can't remember which came first. My sister, like I said,
used to go to gigs all the time. So when
I was about ten, my sister took me to see
one was Super Tramp, which is self explanatory for anybody
who knows Super Tip music, and I'm sure everyone does
unless you've been living under a rock as a ten
year old kid. I was completely blown away, but blown

(25:52):
away in loads of different ways. Because I was ten,
I shouldn't really have been there, perhaps, but I think
she used to think I was like fashion accessory to
bring a ten year old kid to a gig where
everyone's kind of smoking different things and what have you
and hanging out and deliver. But it just blew me away.
And their music I think is because the other band,

(26:12):
and I don't know which was first, was a band
called Camel and that's a progressive rock band. And I've
said this before, who have flute solos longer than some
of the records I've made, you know what I mean.
So it's kind of like, yeah, I mean, I mean,
you know, it wasn't about vocalists. It was about the music.
It was, you know. And but the super Tramp One
I think was amazing for so many different reasons. They were,

(26:36):
well still are, but they were such an amazing band
because they had great, like sort of pop songs. Maybe
that's not a fair term to call them, but they
were very popular. So there were pop songs, but the
instrumentation and the way they used to go about it
was really quirky, was really different and kind of a
bit like nothing else, but to me anyway listening to it.
So I came out of well both of those geeks,

(26:56):
but I can't remember which one was first. And I
think it was a game changing for me. I kind
of thought, I want to do that because when the
lights went down, it turned on the smoke machine and
then the colored lights come on and it all even
back then, you know, going to a gig was like
this mystical, mythical experience. It was like something. It was
like another world, you know. So yeah, so I think

(27:18):
both of those were game changes a big time.

Speaker 1 (27:21):
The first band you were in it was called FBI.

Speaker 3 (27:25):
Well that was the second one. I was in a
band called give Way because we have a sign in
the UK. You may have it in America. I can't remember.
It's a triangle it says give Way. And our bass
player Jeff, stole one on the way home from somewhere
and stuck it in front of my drums and we said, oh,
that's what we're called then, right, Okay, So yeah, that
was That was when I was still at high school,

(27:45):
as you call it, And there were three bands who
did an audition for the music teacher to see who
could play at the Valentine's Disco, right, And we were
like fifteen going on sixteen at this point. And I
was never one of the cool kids at school. I
wasn't really a geek. I wasn't like, you know, a
swap or whatever. I just I just got through school,

(28:07):
if you know what I mean. I just kept my
head down and got through it. The other couple of bands,
one of them was all the cool kids, like there
was a catching of the football soccer team captain of
this day, you know, the good looking guys. They had
all the nice guys. But you know what I mean,
they were the cool kids, you know, and we weren't.
But we could play. So we did the audition and

(28:29):
we blew the other bands away. I was singing So
Lonely by the Police from the drums, which was like
the coolest thing in the world because it was like,
you know, we were doing police songs and they were
doing something that wasn't anywhere near school of that. And
we did a couple of other things. We also did
a Joy Division song, which again was like just the
coolest thing in the world. I think it's you know,

(28:49):
the teachers were not expecting that at all. And so
we got the gig and I got five Valentine's Cards
that year.

Speaker 1 (29:00):
Are you the lead singer of the group or well, no.

Speaker 3 (29:01):
No, no, the bass player Jeff was. But I used
to sing a couple from the drums, and.

Speaker 1 (29:07):
And again always was then hard to sing so lonely.

Speaker 3 (29:10):
I sang it an octave lower. Yeah, yeah, and I
just think again, talk about pivotal moments and stuff. Not
because I've got the Valentine's cards, but we were We
walked around school for the next two weeks as if
we were different people, like people. I'm not we we

(29:31):
didn't have high five back then. I don't think. I
don't think it was a thing to high five somebody.
But it was like people just kind of like, you
know what I mean, just getting acknowledged in the corridors
at school or right in the playground or what I mean.
We were just we became different people overnight because we've
done this gig, and it was like, yeah, I don't know, really,
it was very It was very interesting I think in

(29:51):
terms of your ego and just just the absolute joy
of walking off stage going wow, we just we just
did that. That just happened. People actually listened to dance
and you know, so, yeah, it's pretty amazing.

Speaker 1 (30:04):
I went through that in high school. But I wasn't
the band that blew everyone away. I was one of
the bands that got blown away because I went to
school with boys the men. So yeah, so I still
say they cheated, but you know they you know, they
had tuxedos and glitter and top hats and canes and everything,

(30:28):
and they were singing. They were singing new addition songs,
and I just felt like all my hopes and dreams
to impress, like who I wanted to impress is it
went down the drain, because like could.

Speaker 3 (30:40):
They could they sing that great? Then? As well?

Speaker 1 (30:43):
Dude? They were? They were, Yes, they were. If ever,
there was a group of people ready for their close up.
It was boys to men. And the thing was that
after that Valentine's thing was over, Like girls were treating
them like it was you know, you ever see the
I Want to Hold Your Hand movie, first film about

(31:06):
the Beatles. Yeah, yeah, like they were chasing them in
like seventh period and all this stuff, and I'm like,
it's just them, Like what the hell, they're not stars,
they go to our school. But yeah, they after that performance,
things were never the same again.

Speaker 3 (31:20):
Listen, I feel your pain. I also think it's a weird, weird,
weird thing. I was not one of the kind of
cute kids at school or good looking kids by any
stretch of the imagination, right, But I think what happens
is when you've been on TV and on a record
cover and on what have you, the media themselves start

(31:41):
calling your handsome or start calling you something. I don't
know what, but you know, and and it's like, now
you got this wrong. I'm exactly the same as I
was last week. It's just about a hit record. But
I mean, that is pretty crazy to be at school
with boys to men and them singing the way they do.
If they were singing like that back then, that must
have been wild.

Speaker 1 (32:00):
Yeah, they had every grown the palm their hands. Were
you thinking of a music career by this point or
was it just like, you know, our graduate school and
then go to university and no, I think I wanted to.

Speaker 3 (32:12):
I think my upbringing was kind of what was it.
I'm from a very working class area, but my dad
had a little business. He ended up having a little
garden center and we all we all have two brothers
and my sister and all of us kind of off
and on did work there. And I used to work
there in school, holidays and after school and all the
rest of it. And so we were lucky in the
respect that we did kind of have a little job

(32:33):
to go to. He didn't have a big he didn't
employ lots of people or anything. I think he employed
one or two other people, and then we kind of
worked on stuff. And where we were from was kind
of hit very very badly in the mid and late
eighties in terms of the way that the world changed.
You know, we don't we don't manufacture so much in
the UK anymore, like like Americas to that degree, you know,
and we don't do a lot, you know, coal mines

(32:54):
and all the all the old things.

Speaker 1 (32:56):
That industry that were still hanging on too.

Speaker 3 (32:59):
Yeah, and people, certainly from the little town where I'm
from and a lot of towns around it, those things
don't exist anymore. And it was in that transition period,
you know. So we were really lucky that my dad
did have a little business and it survived and everything,
but we didn't really have a lot of money or
anything like that. And I think for me, I just
I wanted to I wanted to get out of that

(33:21):
little town and I wanted to go and do something
with my life. I don't know what that meant, and
I think the truth of it was I kind of
felt that music was a way of possibly doing that,
and I did love music, don't get me wrong, I did.
You know, I got a drunk it when I was fifteen,
and I was never ever off it, just ever. I
used to play in my dad's greenhouse, which he used
to have this fairly big glasshouse, you know, where the

(33:43):
plants were and all the rest of it. And he
allowed myself to have a drunket there and my two
friends to come and play there as well, which is
we made an awful racket, even though we were you know,
we thought we were great. But so that was pretty lucky.
But I also think my mum and dad divorced when
I was really really young, and I didn't the happiest
of home lives, if you know what I mean. It
wasn't It wasn't tough. It wasn't horrible in what a

(34:05):
lot of people have been tough, but it definitely left
the hole, there's no doubt about it. My mom and
dad they both passed away now they never spoke to
each other. Ever. If my mom rang the house, my
dad would just kind of like he just put the
phone receiver down and walk away. And that's how we
knew it was my mom. And I was brought I
was brought up by my dad. I lived with my dad,

(34:26):
because it's a long story, but I saw my mom
all the time. But I think I also felt somehow,
even at that age, and I'm not saying I actually
knew this, but I think I felt it somewhere that
music and getting out of that was going to take
me away from that, do you know what I mean?
It was going to give me a different life where
I could sort of start again. And I think sometimes

(34:48):
if you if you brought up in a fairly unhappy house,
which I was, you just want to kind of like
turn the key on the door and walk into another
space and just leave it where it is, do you
know what I mean. I'm not saying you can't ever
go back there and just say, just just start again.
And I did. I did feel that music was going
to be the escape to do that, you know, to
be coming getting a successful bound and just start again,

(35:11):
you know.

Speaker 1 (35:12):
So what did the moment happened for you where you're like, Okay,
I'm pursuing this.

Speaker 3 (35:21):
I'd have to say I was about seventeen, I think,
because the band that I got in next was called FBI.
And the first group I was in that we were
in for a little while. One of the guys went
to university and so we just and he's still a
friend today. Actually I see him for coffee like once
or two weeks were he went to university and you
know all the rest of it, and we just split up.

(35:44):
So I joined this other group and they were like
they were called FBI because of it goes back to
a group called the Shadows, who were the backing band
for Cliff Richard. Do you know who Cliff Richard is?
He's an English Cliff. Yeah, it goes through. So he
was like the English Elvis if you like, you know
what I mean? He was like the you know, and

(36:07):
and they had a song called FBI. I think I
think that's where it comes from. And the guy who
was the lead guitarist in this in this band that
I joined called FBI, was a Shadows freak. He absolutely
loved them, and so that his dad. I think he
got it from his dad. Really, so they were doing
covers like that. They were doing a lot of early
early Beatle songs, which are fantastic and great, don't get

(36:28):
me wrong, but I would have loved to have been
playing some of the later Beatles songs, but we weren't.
We were playing the really really early ones, which is
still great, like I say, and for a young band
to learn to learn them anyway. And I got in
that band as the drummer, and I sort of became
the singer because I wanted us to kind of try
and write some of our own material. And I borrowed

(36:50):
a guitar from one of the guys and he showed
me the three chords, and so I turned up at
rehearsal a few weeks later and said, I've written some songs.
Should we thrash them out? And I sort of became
the singer because of that, really, because they're all looking
at me, going, well, who's going to sing that? You know?
And they said, well, you are so so that that's it.
So we got a drummer and then from that point,
I think I just sort of became the singer by default, really,

(37:13):
And at that point I thought, if we're going to
make this happen. I'm gonna have to push and drive this.
And I think when you started doing your own songs,
you think that's a different thing. That's not just earning
living on a Friday and a Saturday and having a
regular job. Do you know what I mean? Like doing
your job and then earning a bit of extra money.
That's how do we how do we become how do

(37:34):
we become known? How do we get people to hear
these songs? And that that at that point is like, well,
that's what I'm going to do.

Speaker 1 (37:39):
Then you know, by this point are you developing the
voice that we know now or you're still trying to
find well.

Speaker 3 (37:46):
I think I think one of the things is I
think in the eighties or late eighties, a lot a
lot of British music there was there was more kind
of it was pop, definitely pop, and it was in
the charts. It was successful, but it was a lot
of people sang with a much lower tone or a
lower register with their voice. It was very normal today
and I think for twenty five years or more, everything's

(38:07):
very very high with male singers most of the time.
And I think back then a lot of records had
a lot of for instance, the guy called Edwin Collins
who was in a bank called Orange Juice, right, and
he had this point, yeah, yeah, And there was a
lot of them. There was I'm trying to think by
now and I can't because I'm on the spot to
think of them. But what I'm trying to say that
there were a lot of voices that were deeper and

(38:28):
it was kind of cool to be that. It was
edgy and it was cool. But then when I listened to,
for instance, if I listened to like Bill Withers, Bill
Withers is obviously the greatest. He's written some of the greatest.
One of the things I absolutely loved and still love
about Bill Withers is that he's written some of the
biggest songs in the world that five year old kids

(38:49):
to eighty five year old grandma's now everybody knows. They've
been in movies and everything. But he could probably be
sat next to you eating a bowl of pasta in
a nice restaurant somewhere, and I think ninety ninety of
the people in the room wouldn't be able to recognize him.
And I think that was for me, was like an
amazing thing about him. Really, But that again that's another
another universe to walk into. But I think but he

(39:14):
had all the soul in the world, his lyrics, the
actual music itself and the way he played and everything.
But his voice obviously was incredibly soulful. But he didn't
really do tricks with his voice. He didn't. He didn't
do lots of trills and lots of this, that and
the other, which a lot of people do associate with
soul and R and B and everything. He didn't do that.
He was for me, he was like a folk singer.

(39:35):
Just theres a lot of soul in it, a lot
of soul, and so I think somebody like him. And
even though Luther could obviously do anything of his voice,
and I remember seeing him live and walking out of
the room and just sort of going, well, just forget
it then, because that's that's that's it. There it is.

Speaker 1 (39:52):
Yeah, see, and in your personal time you tried to
do a who.

Speaker 3 (39:58):
To be honest, that no, it's the answer. I very
often still sing to this day. I will always sing
never too much to my wife if we're ever in
the car, that comes on or what have you, because
that's one of our songs and I always sort of
sing along with it. But he was one of those
I don't care what anybody says about anybody else. He
was one of those singers that it didn't matter what

(40:19):
where he was in the whole range of the human voice,
it sounded good everywhere. He could do anything, that guy.
You know, so I.

Speaker 1 (40:26):
Got to know Luther's longtime manager, Sheep Gordon. I didn't
realize how big Luther was in the UK. Yeah, to
the point where I didn't realize that he could sell
out like Wembley Arena.

Speaker 3 (40:45):
Wembley was the gig back in the day. Wembley was
the gig in London. To go to Wembley Arena, Luthor,
I think, did I think multiple nights there?

Speaker 1 (40:52):
I think, yeah, he did, like eight or nine nights there,
and yeah, he was telling me that basically Luther had
a more devoted and diverse fan.

Speaker 3 (41:02):
Base for sure, for sure over there then he.

Speaker 1 (41:05):
You know here, I mean here, yes, he could still
you know, sell out Massive Square Garden all those things
like maybe one, two, three nights in a row. But
you know, he it took him a long time to
sort of cross over to a pop market, you know,
like here and now or do you give me the
reason like there was occasional songs that made the top ten.
But yeah, yeah, I didn't realize until like I finally

(41:26):
watched like Live and Wimbley and realized that, Oh I
didn't realize that Luther.

Speaker 3 (41:33):
It was huge and also he I think he and
and a lot of other artists around him. But I
mean he for me motally is the pinnacles, no doubt really.
But I mean James Ingram was really big in the
UK as well, Jeffrey Osborne, A lot of those singers
around that time that that, you know, I think a
lot probably a lot of ballads were bigger as well,

(41:56):
if you know what I mean. I think that was
what's probably crossed them over to some degree as well.
You know, But we used to go we would go,
I say, we're a group of friends, some of which
most of which were in the second band I was in.
We would go to a little night when we'd go
to different clubs around us actually in different towns and

(42:17):
into Manchester and stuff. But in our little town of Newton,
Leuillow's we have a little cricket club and it's been
there forever and they used to have Monday nights and
Friday nights and the Monday nights were under eighteen and
the Friday were over eighteen, so there was alcohol and
all the rest of it. But they also used to
have occasionally on a Friday night, they had a guy

(42:38):
called keV Edwards who was a DJ in the town
I'm from, and he would only he would only play
records that I'm not saying all of them were imported,
but he always used to have records before anybody else,
so he would play and we all used to go
and we dress up. We wore jackets at times. This
is in the this is in the sort of eighty

(42:59):
five eighty six, right, we would go and wear jackets
and ties. Well I'm saying, yeah, eighty five eighty six
for sure, cheap ones. You know, we've just bought these
jackets the ties with god knows where, do you know
what I mean. But we'd all go and we're dancing
lines and all the girls, especially you, dance moves and
different routines, and a certain song would come on and
for instance, let's say, I'm not sure when Never too

(43:20):
Much came out exactly, but let's say that that song
came on. Some of the girls had actually even have
a routine for it.

Speaker 1 (43:28):
Oh really, so it was choreographed.

Speaker 3 (43:29):
And that's not just my little town where I'm from.
That is especially that was a very big thing in
the north of England, but also in the South if
you speak to people about I mean not just lead
of Vantos obviously, because I like I say, he was
probably the biggest one to cross over in so many
different ways. I think a lot of that music that
was around the cane from America, Black American soul music

(43:51):
was a massive part of our getting down and having
a good night and having a good you know, we
wouldn't even drink alcohol. We'd just go out and drink
an orangey sort of coca and what have you, because
we wanted to go and dance to music and that
was a big thing for us. It really really was.

Speaker 1 (44:10):
But an idea now we just do it on TikTok.
You know what I'm saying, Take us on the path
that leads you to actually pursuing a solo career and
meeting with Stark It.

Speaker 3 (44:32):
Well, we were the second Memos in FBI. We weren't
really making waves exactly, but we were getting back to
gigs and we were earning a bit of money. And
we were this, that and the other. We'd had one
or two record labels coming have a look at us,
but they were a bit you know, we were too
naive really and we didn't really have it together really.
But anyway, one of the guys who came up to
see us actually saw us in what we used to

(44:54):
call a battle of the bands, where you would you
would have you know, over over maybe a couple of
nights or even a couple of months, on different nights,
banks would come together from an area and we'd all
be competing for a prize basically, but also it was
like little audiences you can get together and it's a
judge as in one of those, and he requested that
he really would like to see us against In other words,

(45:16):
we did a showcase for him with a couple of
other bands, and it sort of turns out that we
kind of did that really because he liked my voice,
heard something in my voice that he thought that there
was some potential in it and he could do something
with it. So he asked me to come down to London,
and I did with the two guys who were kind

(45:36):
of managing us at that point, and I didn't really
exactly grasp who he was or what he was, but
he had red leather pants and he had a Jaguar.
That was enough for me. That was enough red leather
pants and a Jaguar, I mean, come on, Yeah. So

(45:56):
I went down to London to meet him and he
kind of explained that, look, he wasn't interested in signing
the band. He didn't really want to work with bands.
He wanted to work with vocalists because he was part
of this trio that were and they weren't really famous
at that point. They hadn't really had any really big
hits at that point. They were just on the cusp
of it. They were right on the edge of it.

(46:17):
But I didn't know that, but I kind of thought, well,
I signed a little deal with their production company after
about six months of chatting a couple of times about it,
because I didn't really want to leave my friends, which
they were they were, you know, my closest friends, and
arrested it. But in the end, I thought, look, I
drive the vand I write the songs. Sometimes I have
to get people out of bed, so I'm just going
to give this a try. And I did.

Speaker 1 (46:38):
And how hard was it breaking the news to them? Though?

Speaker 3 (46:42):
Well, that wasn't comfortable at all. I thought one or
two of us were going to come to actual you know,
fists and what everybody didn't. They didn't and it was all,
you know, but it wasn't great, I'm honest. And at
one point we were just going to try and keep
the band together and I was going to pursue this
and see what happened and see if we could marry
the two together or get something going with a single

(47:04):
or two and then see what we could do. But anyway,
I signed the deal with them after after a little while,
and then and then amazingly I had a number one
record with an artist called Princess number one, so.

Speaker 1 (47:24):
You know that too, yeah, starters adding wait see some
of the UK.

Speaker 3 (47:31):
Yeah yeah, yeah, dog Season Brooklyn.

Speaker 1 (47:38):
And number one Damn I did that.

Speaker 3 (47:42):
So I was kind of around. They had their own
studio and I was kind of around in the process
of them. I'm not saying I was on the sessions.
I wasn't, but I was kind of around a little bit.
And so they had this number one record and everyone
in the business in the UK went, what is that?
Who is that? What's who was? Who she was? Who
produced it? We wrote it What's going on? Because it

(48:04):
was quite it was a big record, it was a
number one record, but I mean it was also quite
a sort of an ear turn. It was like, what
is that?

Speaker 2 (48:12):
Because it was?

Speaker 3 (48:13):
It was? It was it. It had like a toe
in a lot of different places, if you know what
I mean, a finger in lots of pies. I don't know.
It wasn't I'm not saying it wasn't R and B,
but it sort of wasn't. And it was very British sounding,
but it also sounded kind of like she was a
great singer. Obviously is a great thing, you know, but
I'm saying it it could have been. It was a
lot of things, you know. Anyway, it was it was

(48:35):
to me, it.

Speaker 1 (48:35):
Was like a less song. It wasn't a ballot, but
it also wasn't a jam. But I always heard it
in clubs and even even the chord structures and stuff like.
It was very dreamy sounding and very very unique song.
I love.

Speaker 3 (48:50):
I think it's a cool record. I think so anyway,
So and at the time they're also working they just
started working around that time on Dead or Alive, so
that you know, you spin me around record that whole
album and everything right and the record industry I think,
I mean, I'm going back. I'm kind of putting the thoughts.
I'm not saying I had the thoughts at the time.

(49:11):
I'm just remembering what was going on and what I
must have been thinking. But they they were looking at meeting,
we'll sign this kid, and I think they'd signed somebody
else as well, but we're not going to get to
work on them because all of a sudden we're like
beginning to be a little bit hot as producer writers,
and people are asking for us to do things. So
we can't start doing our own projects because people are
throwing money out us and we need to pay the bills.

(49:32):
So in a nutshell, people kind of sat me down.
I said, look, we're gonna, you know, we are going
to make a record, but we've got to get on
with this thing right now. Do you want to come
and live in London and you become like an assistant,
hang out of the studios, get to see how we
do things. Because I was greenish Glass, I was pretty nervous.
I don't have to live like twice in my life

(49:52):
before then anyway, you know, And so I got to
live and I ended up living it. It's flat for
the first weeks of it and everything, and I just
used to go into the so I would he'd be
driving his Porsche, because he had a Porsche as well
at this point, so he must have been doing something right.
He'd be driving this Porsch and he'd be on his
massive eighties phone having his conversations, and I'm sat next

(50:13):
to him, his nineteen year old kid, going, I have
no idea about the languages using because it was all
about record deals and A and R people, which I
didn't even know what an A and R man was
at that point. All this different stuff and I'm just
trying to soak it up and learn, you know. So
I ended up being at their building i'd say for
nine months, maybe even a year, and I made tea, coffee,

(50:33):
got the sandwiches like all the other kids did in
the building, you know, all the tapeops as it used
to be. And then Banana Arma came in the building
and they made some great records for them, and it
just kept going. So they made all this and then
there was this sister's duo called melon Kin who they
had a massive success with as well.

Speaker 1 (50:48):
Yeah, first the Weekend, Yeah, there you go. He did
that too.

Speaker 3 (50:52):
Yeah yeah, they did that.

Speaker 2 (50:56):
Live, but it still like is that team and it's
still alive?

Speaker 3 (50:59):
Yeah the three yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.
They don't work together anymore, but they're all still going
yeah yeah yeah.

Speaker 2 (51:05):
Okay yeah.

Speaker 1 (51:06):
Dude, I have no clue that this was coming from London,
Like in my head, like I thought this was all
like New York stuff, like.

Speaker 3 (51:16):
Well, they would be they would be really happy to
hear that, to be honest, because I think I think
the thing with those guys what used to frustrate me
at times later on this is is that they they
got pigeonholed, but they almost did it themselves. They kind
of created a sound and went that's what we do
and that's it, right, And I think artists fitted into

(51:37):
that sound more than then, but in the early beginnings
of it, I don't think they did. If you listen
to that same my Number one record, you listen to
Spin Me Around, you listen to Melon Kin, they have
very three, very different sounding records, different artists, different everything,
and I think they wanted to emulate like a motown,
But unfortunately for me, I think they didn't then go
out and try and find Diana Ross, Marvin Gay, Stevie Wonder.

(52:00):
They thought they were good enough to get anyone to
sing their songs and still have that thing, you know
what I mean?

Speaker 1 (52:06):
So at what point are they ready to put you in?
Like are you ready?

Speaker 3 (52:11):
One of the things that one of the issues was,
well this is well, I'll just explain this for a second,
because right, so they'd signed me to their production deal, right,
their little production company, which sort of went on on
the back burner. It kind of got shoved to the
side because they were producing major hit records for artists
and the you know, with big record deals, you know

(52:32):
what I mean. So Pete Waterman said, right, I need
to sign Rick to a major record label because this
is the way this is going to work. Really them
doing it themselves. They did do eventually, but I think
they just thought, we just need to get him signed
to a major record label and give it a really
big push and all the rest of it. I think
they were seeing what was happening with some of those

(52:54):
records and thinking, right now, at the end of the eighties,
you need to be with a major label. That's the
way to do that, you know what I mean. So
so we went to see a guy called Peter Robinson
who was the head of A and R at RCA
in the UK. Lovely guy. I've just just met him
again recently a few times, actually, lovely guy. And he said, well,
this is all great to Pete Waterman, but I need

(53:16):
to hear Rick sing in front of me. I need
to see him sing songs here, sing these just sing
some songs from me. I can't sign the guy just
because you know he's going to be your next artist
and you say he's great and all the rest of it.

Speaker 1 (53:27):
What I wow, exactly, that doesn't happen now.

Speaker 3 (53:31):
Yeah, well, so we're in the car, we're in the
Porsche on the way back, and he's on the phone, right,
and he said to Matt and Mike, which is stocking
aching and they are the two musicians in the threesome. Really,
Pete's more an R and ideas and all that said, right,
you need to do like a little showcase with Rick
singing for Pete Robinson at RCA. And they both went, Nope,

(53:51):
that's not what we do. We're making records. So Pete said, right,
you know those demos you've got rich and I've done
these little demos in a four track studio back in
the hometown where from I went up north, went home,
got the vocals taken off, brought them down on a cassette,
played the cassette for Pete Waterman, Peter Robinson from RTA,

(54:13):
a couple of other people, one of my kind of
managers at the time, and I sang on an s
M fifty eight microphone, which to everybody listening, he doesn't
know is the bog standard. That's what you're using it? Yeah, yeah,
there you go, no reverb. And it just came out
of the shitty speaker that I'd found in the basement
because I was one of the tapops making tea and
getting the biscuits right. So how you where your here was?

(54:33):
And I sang in the reception to four of my
songs that I'd done right. I played everything, demo and everything.
So as soon as I've finished the songs, Peter Robinson
from RCA says, who wrote these songs? And Pete Waterman
at this point has got no intention of me ever
writing a song, said, oh, he's a great songwriter as well,

(54:56):
so because obviously he knew within a second that that
that was the that was his way that he was
going to get a major deal the artist that they
signed and owned and you know whatever. So I ended up.
I ended up from that point getting like I got
four songs on the first album. I didn't get a
single on the first album, but I got four songs,
and I got like a few more on the next

(55:18):
record and stuff like that. But I was sort of
all of a sudden, I was getting to do my demos.
I think it already was, actually, but I was getting
to do like, really was getting to do my demos
on like an SSL board with an engineer who last
week had been making a number one record with Dead
or Alive or whatever. And I'm doing my demos like
that because that's just the way it was, you know.

(55:40):
And I used to do them at the weekend or
through the night. And so I can't remember what we
were talking about to girls because I was getting excited
again remembering all that. But anyway, it was like a
mad It was a mad one of those moments where
it's like I'm just going to sing their songs and
that's cool. We'll just see where it goes to. Okay,
now my songs are involved, and they were naive songs.

(56:00):
Don't get me wrong. They really really were. But you know, yeah,
I don't know. I was really lucky, I think, to
be at the stockaching Waterman moment where it exploded and
they became this huge thing. And even though it hung
around for almost a year making tea and getting the
sandwiches and tidying up the room, you know, me doing
all that stuff, I also got to do a lot

(56:20):
of stuff. Like I used to go to the pub
every night with the guys and I was allowed to
sit on their table while they talked about, you know,
how to produce this, and they talk about, well have
you heard this new record that kicked on the way
that that was this or this baseline is amazing or
what I mean. And it was it was like a
like doing an internship. But I just didn't realize I
was doing it.

Speaker 1 (56:40):
You know, were you around for like one of the
songwriting sessions when they're putting songs together or is it
always just here sing this?

Speaker 3 (56:50):
I mean no, I mean they're never going to give
you up. For instance, the first, you know, my first
song and biggest one. Obviously they'd hired a guy called
Ian kern Or. He was a he wasn't a programmer,
but he became a programmer for them, and I mean
programming the loose terms of He was an amazing keyboard
player and he you know, put tracks together, following stuff
and ideas and stuff. So Mike Stock came down to

(57:12):
his room and I was literally making the coffee. I
remember it. I had just made a fresh pot of coffee.
Mike Stock comes down. They just put a fair like computer.
I don't know whether you guys ever worked with a
fairlight back in the day, yes, And I was like
completely blown away by this. I was like, what what
world are we living in? You know? And so Ian
set to work, and Mike Stott came down. He put

(57:32):
the chords in and he kind of sang in the melody,
the rough melody, you know, and Ian was making some
notes and all the rest of it. So I just
kept seeing going the coffee and biscuits and sandwiches or
whatever he wanted. And I sat there, having just heard
my first single, and then kind of watched it get
put together. And then obviously we went upstairs and took
it into the big room and all the rest of it,

(57:53):
and you know, and that song went through so many
transitions because the bassline and the drums were very, very
different than when they began, and I've got to give
credit to the Stock and Wantant guys for that, but
I've got to give more credit to Colonel Abrahams, to
be honest, because they pinched the bassline from tracks exactly.
And I think I was kind of one of the

(58:15):
only artists who was actually part of their setup, if
you know what I mean. A lot of the other
artists came in and yeend some of them actually wrote
with Stock Andky Mortmon or just came into the vocals
or whatever it was. But I'd literally been round to
the you know, the greasy spoon cafe to get their
lunches for the last six months, you know what I mean,
and got the coffee and all the rest of it.

(58:36):
And I even remember there was one session where a
guy had come in to do a sax solo on
a song. It was actually they were doing a cover
of Ain't Proud to beg by the Temptations because people
wanted me to sing some songs like that just to
test my voice out and see whatever. So this guy
came in to do a solo on it, and he said,
he said, who's singing that? It's a great voice, that

(58:57):
who's singing, and Matt Aikin, one of the producers, said,
don't say too much because he's just walking in now
with your coffee. It was like, it was so upside
down that I'm making coffee for the guy who's doing
the saxophone solo on my god dumb record. But it
was also it was also pretty amazing because I kind

(59:17):
of felt a bit more part of it, and I
felt a bit more. I'm not saying that I earned
the right to be there, but I think I at
least I understood a bit more than perhaps sometimes when
a young kid gets plucked from obscurity, just say right,
sing this right, off you go. This is the suit
you're gonna wear, Now, off you go. Do you know
what I mean? I just felt like I kind of yeah.

Speaker 1 (59:39):
You know that that was Marvin's start too. You know,
he started out at Motown running errands.

Speaker 3 (59:45):
I don't know, Wow, Yeah, he was.

Speaker 1 (59:47):
Like running erons first, and then like he was like
house drummer, and then you know, once he started closing
up to Anna Gordy, then she realized that he had
a velvety voice and was sort of like, hey, you're
know you're obviously doing the wrong jobs. You it's time
that you start singing.

Speaker 3 (01:00:05):
I don't even imagine that. He's also one of the
most beautiful looking men that's ever walked the earth. And
it's like with that the way he looked in that voice,
like I seen that before.

Speaker 1 (01:00:14):
You know, that's how he nabbed Anna Gordy to to
get to the front of the line. So you know,
and you're well to hear you tell the story. It's
like you know, you you were just around you run
an errand you're going to sing the song whatever. At
what point does it hit you that, like, yo, this

(01:00:36):
is making it because it's not like you're one, you know,
and I know that this song is now going to
live forever in in you know, past pop culture. But
it's also over shaddling the fact that you also had
like eight other you know, top ten hits as well.

Speaker 3 (01:00:55):
Yeah, but I also think that happens with artists sometimes.
I mean, obviously you can look at greats and I
don't know how many greats got, and a lot of
artists and I'll throw myself in that I've got one
that everyone would remember them from, and then when they
go on Spotify or what I mean to go, oh,
I can't remember that one as well, and oh did
he do that? Didn't know that?

Speaker 1 (01:01:13):
You know what I mean.

Speaker 3 (01:01:13):
There's a bit of that going on. But so I
don't feel any I'm not I don't, I don't know
any hang ups about. I'm glad I've got that song
because it sort of opens doors and windows for me
all the time. So I'm okay with it, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:01:25):
But it's weird to hear that because most of the
time I'll run into artists that hate their biggest you know,
like Nirvana famously stopped playing Smells like teen Spirit the
last year and a half day. Las Soul hates me
myself and I I'm working with Mary J. Bligee right now,
and Jesus h like, you know, the amount of number

(01:01:47):
one songs he has were It's like, I don't do
that no more. I don't do that, no more. I
don't do that Like it's like good morning.

Speaker 3 (01:01:52):
I think I think a lot of it, though I
don't know. We're jumping times frame now, but a lot
of it goes to the fact that when I kind
of quit, I was about twenty seven to twenty eight,
and I've quit for a lot of reasons. I'd had enough.
I knew the writing was on the wall. To sustain
any kind of pop career. It's almost impossible, to be honest,
as we say, there are some greats you've done it,

(01:02:14):
but it's so difficult, you know, because it just is.
And you've got to give everything, everything you've got, time wise,
effort wise, everything, all your energy everything to it. And
I was a bit sick of it, and I just
didn't want to do it anymore. Blah blah, all those reasons.
I was super lucky I got to do it for
the time I did, so I didn't sing never going
to give You Up altogether forever or anything else for

(01:02:35):
about fifteen years. The only time I have or maybe more, actually,
the only time I ever did it was at friend's weddings.
That's the only time I ever did it right. And
now I do it at friends kids weddings, which is
which is even greater to be honest, that really that
gets me right there that they want me to do that,
So that's cool. But I didn't sing those songs. I
didn't sing never going to give You Up, you know,
night after night or dirt. And I've sort of lived

(01:02:58):
a very simple, very comfortable. Thank Evans, and I do
thank Evans and I'm grateful for that, but a very
obscure life, if you know what I mean in terms
of like, you know, I haven't been famous for all
those years. In terms of that, I mean, I know
there's been a bit of fame comeback because of Rick
Rowland and you know whatever. And so I approached singing

(01:03:21):
never going to give you up, completely differently I think
than perhaps artists who've done it for thirty three years.
I when I came back to it. He's sort of
happen in two ways. A promoter who is massive in
the UK and is involved in managing me as well.
I bumped into him at a showcase in a tiny
little pub in London because friends of mine had written

(01:03:41):
the tracks and everything, and he said, look, why don't
you sing? Why don't you? And I said, now I'm done, really,
you know, well why don't you just go out and
do it again? I said, well, you know, i'm't done
it for years And he said, well what if I
anyway he got in touch with it. What if I
put a little tour together? You can sing anything you want.
And just been in front of a feonder people, nothing big.
You don't even have to sing your old songs if

(01:04:02):
you don't want, just walk out there and sing and
see if you want to do it again. I'm like,
who is this guy? What you know? And it turns
out this guy is an amazing guy and he promotes
like things from like Coldplayer Dell right the way down
to brand new bands right. He just loves it, lives it,
breathes it. So I'm like, what a crazy offer that if?

(01:04:22):
It's just unbelievable. And around the same time, I also
had an offer to go to Japan, and I'd always
turned down all the offers to sing all my old songs,
and I just thought so anyway, So I did this
little tour and I sang Frank Sinatra, Backer rap anything
I wanted to that I remember as a kid, my
mum and dad used to play and my dad had
a really great voice actually, and he used to sing.

(01:04:42):
He used to sing the wrong words, but he used
to sing Franks and around the house all the time.
So I went and did that with a little, you know,
little brass section, a very small brass section. Three guys,
two or three guys I think actually, and just you know,
just a really stand up based all the rest of it,
tiny little venues we played. Ronnie Scott still was to
come and do it there because we were doing that
kind of thing, went up and down the country, and

(01:05:03):
I absolutely loved it, and something in my mind went
like a light bulb just went Okay, so you can
go out and sing. But it doesn't have to be
your bo and end all, it's not every part of
your life. You can do it when you want to
do it. And I accepted this offer to go to Japan,
mainly because our daughter, who was fifteen at the time,

(01:05:25):
and my wife really wanted to go. So we went
and we went on a really lovely trip and I
sang those songs never Going to Give You Up Together Forever,
and a bunch of others, and again the same light
bulb went on of lif So you go out, you
sing them, you walk off stage, you put a different
jacket on, and you go out for dinner. And that's it, right.

(01:05:45):
It's not like you go out there there's three hundred
screaming fans, there's people taking a picture. You've got to
do interviews all day the next day, and by the way,
you'll be on a plane at four o'clock going to
another territory to do it all again the next You
know what I mean. It's you can pick and choose.
You can have a life in music that isn't. I'm
not saying I can ever attain the success they out

(01:06:06):
in the ages about possibly do that, but I can
enjoy it a lot more. And that's kind of what
I do and what I've done ever since.

Speaker 1 (01:06:12):
Can I ask? Okay? So one I wanted to know
what was the straw that broke the camel's back as
far as you walking away? And how did you manage
to make a living? If you remind me asking for
those fifteen years?

Speaker 3 (01:06:29):
Yeah? Okay, first one. Then I think a lot of
things were just coming together. I'd had some We had
some really we like everybody has got a story about
a record they made that never did anything or just
didn't see the light of day, didn't get released, whatever.
So I had a couple of things like that. We
did a record, an album away from Stuff thinking, my

(01:06:52):
first one, and the first single from it it was
called Try for Help, and I was so lucky with
that record, but I also knew, well, I might not
get to make many more. I thought I'd love to
get a couple of my favorite drummers on it. So
we did some stuff with Jeff Picaell came and played drums.
We didn't actually use those sessions in the end because
it turned into something else. Vinni Calliuti came and played

(01:07:12):
drums on that song. Yeah, yeah, and I'm sat there
in the room going, I don't know what's going on.
And I got to play their drum kits as well.
By the way, and obviously we had some great musicians.
Andre Crouch. It is choir that sang that sang on
the record, and obviously I'm sure to this day, but
I think around any of that time through the nineties
and onwards, if you wanted a choir, there were a

(01:07:36):
couple of choirs to ask, and he was probably at
the top of it, and so some of those experiences
were amazing. But anyway, so that record came out, we
had the top ten in America with that song, and
the top ten in the UK and lots of different countries.
So I thought, this is crazy. I've left stocking in waterman,
I've made a record with Vinnie Calliouti on it and
a choir, and yet we still had a top ten

(01:07:57):
and I had long hair as well. I just grew
my hair for a bit of it, laughing, and I thought,
that's it. We've turned that page. I can go and
make records. Cut a long story short. Up to that point,
I think I had like and this sounds like sour grapes,
it's not. I was just shocked by it. I just
didn't understand what was going on. The next couple of
singles released didn't really do anything. We didn't get them
anywhere near the charts, and the weird thing was they

(01:08:20):
were more like pop songs than the first one. And
it transpires that basically the head of RCA in the
UK was moved out, a new person came along, kind
of got rid of everybody and started again, and that
was in that transition of in the middle of that record.
So to be honest, we still I'm not saying this,
I'm not believe me, I'm not bragging. I'm just trying

(01:08:40):
to give you the facts. Right, We still sold over
a million albums with one single. It just didn't go boom,
if you know what I mean. And we didn't and
we didn't get any more singles at all in any
chart anyway, it just didn't happen. And so it made
me realize, and a few people who know what they're
talking about it said, look, that just happens everyone. And again,
you can be in the middle of a record and
if your record company just disintegrates, it doesn't matter. Goodly

(01:09:03):
record is and even though you've had a hit with it,
and if the album's can of out then it's doing
well and it's could even be Top ten in a
couple of weeks, it's just gonna die of death because
there's nothing making it happen. And what it sort of
made me realize was that unless your record company really
wants this to happen, unless they're really on board, you
know what I mean, you've got no chance. Really, And

(01:09:23):
I've never experienced that before. And obviously I was still
a kid, really, I was young, you know. So anyway,
so that record kind of ended, so we start to
make how we gonna Are we gonna make another one?
Are we not? Or we? What have you? So I'd
written a song for a song. I can say this
because it's years after how so it's cool. So Madonna
was going to be in a movie called Body of
Evidence with Willem Defoe.

Speaker 1 (01:09:46):
Two weeks ago.

Speaker 3 (01:09:47):
Why are you joking? That's nuts?

Speaker 1 (01:09:50):
I wanted to watch. I had COVID two weeks ago,
so I wanted to wow. I wanted to watch all
the horrible films I heard about. So I watched Basic
Instinct two.

Speaker 2 (01:10:01):
I didn't even know there was.

Speaker 3 (01:10:06):
Instinct, yes, but not basically instinct to right. So anyway,
so somebody who is A and R in the project
or what have you sort of said, well, look, so
the guy I wrote Cry for Help with a guy
called Rob Fisher. He and I wrote a couple of songs.
This song was called Hopelessly that we wrote. We sent
it in to possibly be in the movie. We got
this thing back saying, look, we absolutely love it. We're

(01:10:27):
going to come to the UK. We want to be
involved in how you record it. We don't not produce it,
but we've got to be there, but we need it
done right away because we're really close and we've just
got to get this thing done. So we went great.
I was meg excited that, but there's something that back
on my mind's going why isn't Madonna singing this song?
Why isn't she singing her own song? Why isn't she
what's going on here? But they said no, she doesn't

(01:10:47):
want to sing any of the songs. They don't want
any They just she wants to act and that's it.
So I'm like, great, that'll do for me. Madonna's gonna
be part of you know, this massive thing, and I'm
going to get a song in it, and let's go.
So we do the song. Everyone said, we love it,
it's great, it's perfect, We send it off. It's all great.
So my record label, which is still our CABMG at

(01:11:09):
the time, said right, we needed to make an album
because this film's coming out in a few months, and
so have you got any songs? So well, I've got
a lot of songs because I've been writing. I've been
you know it, said right, just getting this. So I
went back in the studio with the guy who had
made the last album, with a guy called Gary Stevenson
who's still a good friend today, and we just got
stuck into making an album. So we did. So a

(01:11:30):
Body of Evidence is coming out and they've decided they're
not going to have any songs in Body of Evidence.
They're not going to do this with a lead song
because it doesn't really that's going to confuse people and whatever. Right,
maybe we did have a song in the end. Yeah,
maybe they did have a song in the end. I
can't remember, but but they certainly didn't have ours. I
don't think they had any I think they just had
the theme music. They didn't want to confuse Madonna's career

(01:11:52):
with like this music, So what is it anyway? What ever?
And maybe that's just the way I'm remembering it. So
at this point, when I go into the record label,
I've made an album. At this point, most people when
I walk in the building, I'm kind of looking at
the window, hoping not to make eye contact because now
they don't know what to do. Now they don't know

(01:12:12):
what to do. It's like, is this record any good?
Is it the right record? Should we be doing this?
I'd like to keep my career. So I'm just gonna
look out the window when he walks in the building.
And at this point, I'm like, you know what, I
think I'm just gonna walk away. I think I'm just
going to say, look, I'm gonna while no one's watching,
and they obviously weren't, I'm just gonna walk I'm going
to walk out the side door. And I spoke to

(01:12:32):
a manager who spoke to my lawyer. I was doing
promotion for that record that I had this song Hopelessly,
which was going to be there whatever, and I think
we were getting a bit of roots, getting a bit
of headway in in America, actually funny enough, And I
was I was going to the airport. I was going
to Heathrow to get on a plane to go to
New York to be on a TV show for get

(01:12:53):
which One to sing this song hopelessly, And it was
sort of getting played a little bit, but it wasn't
getting the full do you know what I mean? And
something in me said, I've got a daughter at home
who is like, you know, one year older, thinks she
was something like that. I've just done loads of promotion
in Europe and it all felt pointless. I don't know

(01:13:14):
whether you guys have been there, but it just felt
absolutely it felt like, you know, it almost felt embarrassing,
like sort of like we should just not be doing this. Really,
they don't want to do it. I'm not sure I
want to do it anymore. So I'm going to Heathrow.
And I turned around to my manager, who is still
one of my closest people in my life, and you know,
he's a bit of a surrogate father. And I said,

(01:13:35):
I think I'm done, and he's like, what do you mean.
I'm like, I just don't want to go and I
don't want to go and I don't want.

Speaker 1 (01:13:41):
To do this.

Speaker 3 (01:13:42):
And I knew what it meant, because I knew that
that's it. You know, you don't you don't not go
to New York to go and do a TV show
and the record company go, oh, that's fine. I said,
I think I'm done. So he said, fine, let's call
let's call the lawyer and we'll just see fool. Let
you walk away and forget about it, and we'll shake
hands and we'll do that. And so we turned the
car around and I went home and I cried a bit,
you know, I did, obviously I knew what it meant.

(01:14:04):
And I just went home and we had a bit
of a hug, and he drove home and he called
my lawyer and he called BMG, and to be fair
to them, they said, yeah, we're okay with it. If
he wants to quit, we don't want to do it anymore.
And that was it.

Speaker 4 (01:14:22):
That's a rarity to one that's as good as it
gets in the business.

Speaker 1 (01:14:28):
Yeah, because most people will try to force their will.

Speaker 3 (01:14:31):
Yeah. But I think also i'd had a very explosive
pop career, you know, one of those kind of like
boom sort of like I'd never really I don't think
i'd really come to terms with a lot of it.
I don't think i'd not grown up. I'd done from
being nineteen to sign in a little production deal twenty
one massive single that you know, on a really big album.
It was a huge album and around the world and

(01:14:53):
everything in nuts and and I never really, I never
really I think got to sort of get totally comfortable.
I don't think I think I was always chasing my
tail and always kind of like I almost felt like
I was always running after a bus. That was just
always like leaving the depo before I got you know

(01:15:14):
what I mean. And so I didn't I didn't grow
up as a human. I've become a dad, but I
don't really felt I didn't feel like a grown up,
you know what I mean. So, and anyway, I'm gonna
sorry very long answers. So that to the next part
of the equation, is this that first album did really
really well I wrote four songs on my own on it.
The next album did pretty well. It did about half

(01:15:34):
what the second one did, and I wrote five or
six of them. So and even even the cry for
help song it was on my album called Free. You know,
we did a million something with that record. I wrote
a lot of those tunes and co produced it and
blah blah. So in other words, I made quite a
lot of money because we sold a lot of you know,
that first album sold over eight million, I think, you

(01:15:55):
know what I mean. So we sold a lot of
records back then, because if you had a hit couple
of songs pop song, that very often meant he sold
a lot of records. And so I just kind of
was comfortable with that. But I've never I've never owned
a fleet of ferraris. I've never driven a roll's voice
into a swimming pool.

Speaker 1 (01:16:15):
You weren't balling out of control.

Speaker 3 (01:16:17):
No, I've been, I think again. I owed that back
to my upbringing in the sense I'm from a very
working class area. My dad had a little business, so
I always knew there was a tax man. I didn't
understand what it meant as a kid, but I knew
he was coming, and I knew he wanted some money
from my dad, do you know what I mean? Right,
So my dad would be sat at home doing his
paperwork and be going, right, well, that's for the taxman.
I'm like, what what. I kind of thought a tax

(01:16:40):
him was going to come with a bag almost. I mean,
as a kid, I thought I thought he was going
to knock on the door and give me the money,
you know, But I always knew that was there. And
so I think every bit of money that I earned.
I think also because I was so busy for like,
certainly the first three four years, well I only did
it for four or five years. The first three years
of it, I was so busy. I didn't buy anything,

(01:17:01):
I think, in buy a house until quite a few
you know what I mean, Because I was always traveling.
I was always yeah. So and also I think that
whole kind of like MTV cribs, look at my house lifestyle.
Unless you were one of the absolute greats helping John
the who the what have you?

Speaker 1 (01:17:18):
That?

Speaker 3 (01:17:18):
You know, whoever, you didn't, you didn't live like that.
I think people just gone on with it and then
realized they made some money some years later, you know
what I mean?

Speaker 1 (01:17:28):
You tell that to my friends.

Speaker 2 (01:17:33):
Speaking of it.

Speaker 1 (01:17:34):
What was it like.

Speaker 2 (01:17:34):
Working with him?

Speaker 3 (01:17:35):
Yeah, I mean that guy is amazing in so many
different ways. He got in touch. He cut a long
story short. The first time any sort of connection was
never going to give you up. Got this award at
the BPI Awards, a Single of the Year, and because
it was live back then, it was at the Albert
Hale and fun enough just mentioned that who Who were

(01:17:57):
closing the show and they were playing live at the
album Hole. So the award for single is pretty much
one of the last awards. So i was stood on
this podium waiting to get the award with the audience
looking at me but not the TV audience, and I've
got this camera on me and to me, I'm thinking
the cameras on. So I'm just stood there waiting for
someone to stand up and go and the signal of
the Year goes to Rick Hastley for right there. So

(01:18:18):
I'm just stood there and the albuholes lo looking at me,
and I'm like, but it didn't happen. No one came
on the podium and no one gave me the award,
and it just somebody just went. Ladies and gentlemen who
and they just steamed into like, so I just stood there,
going what is going on? And I'm literally still in
this round podium, just in the middle somewhere, and I'm
going like do and the camera's still looking and I'm going,

(01:18:40):
what do I do? Don't walk do I shuffle away?
Do I walk away? Do I look at the hoom?
And E don't know what to do? And I just
kind of like just sideways, just just kind of walked
out of the picture. Anyway, I wasn't even upset because
I was too in the sort of nonsense of it
all to be upset. I was like, I don't know
what's going on someone's life to do. So I woke up.

(01:19:03):
But believe me, backstage it all kicked off. My god,
there was some like who has you know? There really was,
and my manager was really angry. I mean he was
like fuming, do you know what I mean? And the
stockcakeing watman guys were going ape shit, you know what
I mean? It was really it was a big deal
because they'd actually written and produced the song that had
done you know what I mean, the business that year
and blah blah. So anyway, a couple of days later,

(01:19:27):
a crate of. I think it was Crystal Champagne arrived
at my manager's office from help John to me saying
that I'm really really sorry, what an awful thing to happen.
That's absolutely terrible. All the best, keep on making music,
don't let it get you down. Do it a really
nice letter, and I was just thinking, like, this is
just how amazing is that, you know what I mean

(01:19:48):
to sort of, But obviously as time has gone on,
I've obviously understood he's had his moments in life. I'm
sure where he's been let down and he's been do
you know what I mean? And I think he's always
he's always done that thing, reaching out to younger artists,
sort of saying, look, if you ever want any advice,
if you ever want to you know. So he invited
myself out, and my wife and I went to dinner

(01:20:08):
with him and a few friends, and he was just
chatting about stuff really and just being a nice dude,
you know what I mean, and just kind of saying, look,
if you ever want to talk, if you ever get
you know. And I also think, because obviously he especially
in the latter you know, years, I think he's also
been very helpful to people who've been going to major problems,

(01:20:28):
you know, with drugs and drinking all the rest of
it and all kinds of things, you know. I think
that's what his life is about really now, is about
more giving back than it's taken, if you know what
I mean. But anyway, that's another world to gain too.
So but on that dinner that night, he said, look,
if you ever want me to come and play, you know,
if you want to come and play on a record
of just just get in touch, you know. And I'm like,
and I'm listening to him say the words, but I'm

(01:20:49):
not really computing it. Sure Enough, sure enough he did.
He came and played, and he just rolled up. He
just rocked up and just played piano and a couple
of songs on that record that I did when I left.
I think he's just always been great. He I made
a record a few years ago when I turned fifty.
I made a record in my garage at home, just
sort of just to kind of say to myself what

(01:21:10):
I could do. I didn't even have a record deal
at the time. And he we went to see him
in Vegas. And I'm saying this because I want to.
I want to. I'm proud of myself, but I also
want to say how great he is in it. In
that same sentence, we went to see him just because
we've seen him a bunch of times and I wanted
to see the show that he does in Vegas that
he was doing the Red He's just sat there and

(01:21:31):
he knows him in the audience kind of thing, and
he sat there and he just says to the audience, is,
by the way, nas, jentleman, there's a young man in
the audience tonight. Not when I was younger. There's a
guy in the audience tonight. He said, if you're going
to buy a record, if you're going to buy a
record in the next few weeks or next months by
rick as record by Rick Aster's record is full fifty.
It's an absolutely fantastic And I'm like, what is going on?
You know, It's like wow. And he's always he's always

(01:21:53):
done things like that. I mean, for loads of artists
to think, and you know, he's always he's still keen
on working with the artists and doing due and all
the rest of it. And so I just think he's
one of those people that I know some people around him.
I'm really good friends with David Johnson is MD and
his guitar player for for all the years that he's
been going. Really so I've been to loads of his
gigs and you know, been around some of the stories

(01:22:15):
and some backgrounds on the Lion King, some of those
songs and stuff like because I was just there and
he just so much that get in there to sing,
you know, and stuff, and I just think he's one
of those people who's still in love with music. He's
still back in the days of CDs and what have you.
He would go into stores. I'm sure you've heard this story.
It's legend, go in there and come out with two

(01:22:37):
great big bags of CDs because he's still wanted to
be like, what's going on? I should know what's going on,
and I want to hear that thing, you know what
is it?

Speaker 1 (01:22:45):
So now he's the real deal. He was one of
the first, the very first people to UH when I
when I won the BEFT and I ask her. He
was one of the first people to cod caught me
and congratulate me. And he's like that, wait before we
read up. I always wanted to know, are you shocked
at the level of adoration that you're getting for like

(01:23:06):
these uh cover songs that you do in in your
show now And speaking of Network, did you resist the
temptation to do a Zeppelin song at Network when you
did it or.

Speaker 3 (01:23:18):
Yeah, no, it wasn't that kind of a nebworth to realest.
I think it was just because it was big enough
to get cars in there with gardens, private gardens or
whatever you want to call them. Whatever, right, Uh no,
it's funny. I've never really gotten the lead out, to
be honest, I'm not. I've got friends who are so
into Zeppelin's it's freaky and obviously John Bonham that's another story, right,
because just great. But I think it's never really I'm

(01:23:41):
not saying I'm not a fan, and I'm not I
don't appreciate Zeppelin, but it's I'm if I ever go well,
and I do love a lot of rock music. I
still play drums in a midlife crisis, punk rock covers
band and what have you. And we go from like
uh more ac DC to be honest and then yeah,

(01:24:04):
right okay and more sort of punky rock sort of things.
I just the thing is how I started is how
most people start. You start by covering other people's songs
and there's a real joy in doing it. There's a real.

Speaker 1 (01:24:19):
Well, you look like you're having the time of your
life when you're doing it.

Speaker 3 (01:24:22):
Yeah, I do. I love it And every time. For instance,
we toured in the UK in October, not into November,
and we'd postpone that to her a couple of times,
and so I went into rehearsals and they know what's coming,
my band and crew and everything. They know I'm going
to walk in on the last day because I don't
like to give people much warning and say, right, we're
doing uh, we're gonna do Watermelon Sugar by Harry Styles,

(01:24:43):
and everyone's like, right, fire, what key? How are we?
And I just got to play it. But the other
reason I kind of like to do that is because
if we can't all just shuffle into it and just
play it and make it work, we shouldn't be doing
it unless it just sort of happens instantly. So we
we've done loads of cover and I just I love
doing it. I still absolutely love it, and I think,

(01:25:04):
to be honest, there's an element about doing other people's
songs that there's a there's a tension relief because it's
like you're just doing a cover. Do you know what
I mean? It's not it's not like you're trying to
represent for the audience something they've paid to come and watch.
They've sort of gone right. I bought that first album
thirty odd years ago. I wanted to do never going

(01:25:25):
to give you up. I wanted to sound like the record.
I wanted to you know what I mean. I feel
like old them that, you know what I mean? And
that's not in a negative I want to give them that.
But I think when you do covers, you can just
sort of say it don't really matter. I don't mean
that with any disrespect to the artists at all. I
just mean it's just having fun, you know. I think
all artists like covering other people's songs. It's just, you know,

(01:25:46):
it's just it's just fun. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:25:49):
So my last question is who explained to you what
Rick Rolling was?

Speaker 2 (01:25:56):
Okay?

Speaker 3 (01:25:57):
I have one of my closest friends, a guy called Fampton,
and he is and his brother, actually Daniel was mixed
and engineered last couple of albums for me and stuff.
But Andrew is a producer and a writer and lots
of other things. He I was on holiday in Italy
and he literally RiPP wrote me in an email. So
this is years ago, obviously, and I'm like, so I

(01:26:20):
just emailed him back and went, okay, whatever, whatever send
And then so he did it again, and I'm like
I replied an answer to him saying, what are you doing?
You know what I mean, We've known each other years, right, like,
what are you actually doing?

Speaker 2 (01:26:34):
What?

Speaker 3 (01:26:34):
You know? Because I didn't grasp what it was at all.
And it's also this is the early days of YouTube.
It's the early days of someone getting an email with
a video link in it that I mean, I know,
that's like just so makes me like a granddad, but
I mean it was early that that was quite a
novel thing, right. So in the end, we're we're on
our holiday in Italy. We're on the Mouthy Coast. I

(01:26:55):
remember it where I was and everything in the hotel
and everything. So I get on the phone to him,
right Andrew, what the hell are you doing?

Speaker 1 (01:27:01):
Right?

Speaker 3 (01:27:01):
What are you doing? Kind of thing? And he's laughing
and he's like, so you don't know what a rip
roll is. I'm like, no, I don't even know, don't
know the term, the language, the nothing. So he kind
of explained it to me, and even then I still
sort of thought, nah, this is just him joking, This
is just him doing this and a couple other friends
that he's going to get to email me and do whatever,

(01:27:21):
and had no idea that it was actually this little
bubble on the Internet that people were, you know. So,
to be honest, I give credit to my daughter for
mostly putting me right about it. I'd been nominated for
an MTV award in whenever, it was fifteen years ago,

(01:27:41):
something to do with best Live Act or Best Act
or best something, which all they were doing they were
jumping on the rip roll thing and they were having
a bit of fun. They were having a bit of fun,
possibly at my expense, and that's whatever. But it was
going to be in Liverpool, and I knew that Sir
Paul McCartney was going to be getting a Lifetime Achievement
or from Bono in Liverpool, right right, And I'm like,

(01:28:04):
am I going to go to that?

Speaker 2 (01:28:05):
No?

Speaker 3 (01:28:06):
I am not right. I wasn't even really gonna go anyway,
but I thought, I'm definitely not going there. If it
would have been in Leipzig or Hamburg or Brussels, I
might have gone to that, right, I ain't going to
Liverpool with Sir Paul McCartney and Bonda. That ain't happening, right,
And my daughter said, she said, look, there's no way
you're going to that. That's just like some And I said, no,

(01:28:26):
you're right, you know, and she was like fifteen sixteen
whatever she was. He said, you do realize it's got
nothing to do with you. And I went and I
was actually, I was stunned. Actually, I'm right. What do
you mean, It's got nothing to it? Actually says Rick Roll.
I'm the Rick in the Rick role. It's the video.
I'm in the video. He said, yeah, it's got nothing

(01:28:46):
to do with you. And it was like really wise
words from a young a young woman, young girl, because
she was absolutely right. It's it's got everything to do
with me and nothing to do with me same time.
And it's probably the best bit of advice I ever
had about it, all of it, and that is to say,
it's over there and it's doing whatever it is, and

(01:29:07):
it's a thing, and it's one of you, and it
can be fun and you can even enjoy the fun
and get involved in it sometimes, but it isn't. It's
a thing and it's a whatever. Just it's there. Whatever
it is. And that's because she was of the generation
to understand the Internet way more than I was. So,
you know, even though I had explained by one of

(01:29:28):
my best friends who is my age, her explanation of
it in a real way was kind of a lot
more useful to me.

Speaker 1 (01:29:34):
If you know what I mean, what's your most famous
Rick rold turned down that you've done? Like, I'm not
doing that?

Speaker 3 (01:29:40):
Uh well, I get I get really commercial ones for
money basically with products and things and all the rest
of it, and I don't. I'll do ones that I
think are okay and I think they're fine, and they're not,
you know, in any way. And also because if they
have a bit of a sense of humor about it,
if you know what I mean, I've just done, I say,
just a few months ago, did one for a video
game for God into the Galaxy. And I loved that movie,

(01:30:02):
the first movie when it came out, I absolutely loved it.
And the way they use music, I think is such
a blessing because kids know those songs, even the ones
from the seventies, eighties, whatever, They know those songs. Like
we were talking at the very beginning, all three of
us talking at the beginning about how we listened to music,
how we've come across and stuff. So I thought that
was a really cool thing to do when the guys

(01:30:22):
who made the video game are really great. So I'm
more than happy to be invited to do that. But
there's just times when I just look at it and
I go now, I just don't feel that it's just.
And I also think it's a really difficult thing to navigate.
I think, how far to just do something for money.

(01:30:44):
But don't get me wrong, my wife and I my
wife manages me, and we have a criteria of things
that need answering. The first one it usually comes up
is where is it? Because if somebody says it's in
Santiago and Chile, then we're almost on the plane, right
And I don't love flying, but we're almost on the
plane because we have great promoters down there, We've got

(01:31:04):
some great wine down there. We love it down there.
And if someone says to you, you know someone like that,
or you know anywhere in South America, that's like what
you know. Japan has been to quite a few times
one way or other different places. There's lots of places
in the world. Coming back to America and getting to
go to towns and cities in such a way like
this with the guys and everything. It's been such a
trait really not something I can do on my own

(01:31:26):
in any way, shape or form, so you know. But
but the truth of it is, it's like where is it.
It's also kind of yes, there's money involved, usually as
cost there is, But what we also look at is
we sometimes say, well, you know what, we'll do that
because that basically means we can do this. Well, We're
not going to make any money, but I just really
want to do it. By the time we've flown the

(01:31:49):
band and the crew there, it's probably going to cost
me money, but I really want to do it. I
really want to do it, and that pays for it.
And I'm not afraid or embarrassed to talk about that,
because at the end of the day, music is a
business and it has to kind of balance out at
some point, and you pick and choose and you do
the ones you know. So so I think I've just
always used my head in terms of thinking about the

(01:32:10):
rip roll thing and never going to give you up
the same look, I don't want to bleed it dry
because I don't but sometimes there's opportunities that come along
and sometimes they just happen. Sometimes they just happen in
front of me, and it's like I'm getting on the
stage and I'm singing that song right now because it's
it's just been it's just happening on this It's tricky,

(01:32:30):
and like you said, there's a lot of artists who
want to run a million miles from their biggest, oldest song,
and I kind of go the other way. I sort
of embrace it, and it's it's it's like an old
jacket and it's kept me warm for thirty odd years,
do you know what I mean? So I just I
have that kind of like comfortable love for it.

Speaker 1 (01:32:48):
I think, well that that's inspirational because I'm a human
being that is still slowly, you know, highly uncomfortable when
nice gestures happen or people show you love or that
sort of thing. Like I would have proudly been the
opposite and run away from it. But you know, it's

(01:33:09):
really inspiring to see someone in a healthy way just
embrace and embrace their their work and really enjoy it
and not be serious, but not take themselves that seriously
because you know, I've run across many an artist that
does nothing but try to sabotage a good thing, and.

Speaker 3 (01:33:30):
I understand it. I do understand it, Don't get me wrong.
I do. And like I say that, me having that
fifteen years or more not doing it is what I
think allows me to be comfortable about it now because
I'm not it anymore and I'm not wrapped up in it.
And don't get me wrong, I want to represent it
when I sing it live, you know, when I'm out
with new kids doing this, or whether I'm doing my

(01:33:50):
own shows, wherever it is. I want to go out
and sing that song the best I possibly can. And
I want anybody who remembers it and has some love
for it to have that emotion with me and vice versa,
and share it a bit and say, yeah, I was there,
I bought the T shirt. I remember, you know, because
that because I go to whether it's Sir Paul McCartney
in fort Worth the other week, or whether it's somebody

(01:34:13):
who's nowhere near his level of you know, greatness or whatever,
whether it's somebody just starting out or what have you.
If I've got a connection with them because I, you know,
loved that record, then i want to feel that in
the room. And if I feel their up and doing it,
just painting my numbers up there going looking at the
Watchgod or be off the stage at ten minutes. I'm like,

(01:34:34):
I'd rather walk out. I don't want to know, do
you know what I mean? It's we've still got to
respect it. I think, however old the song is, and
even if it's become an internet meme, you still have
to respect what the true emotion of it when when
somebody heard it the first time.

Speaker 1 (01:34:50):
I appreciate you for, you know, taking the time out
with us and and and sharing your journey and your story.
And you know, whether whether on the radio or ted
Lasso or the internet, you know this song is going
to be here forever man, and I appreciate you for
sharing this with us. And this is uh Rick Astley
on Quest Love Supreme. Won't be out of Fontigelow Sugar,

(01:35:13):
Steve Unpaid, Bill and myself and laya thank you guys,
and we'll see you on the next go round of
Quest Love Supreme. All right, y'all. Quest Love Supreme is
a production of iHeart Radio. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio,

(01:35:38):
visit the iHeart Radio app Apple podcasts, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows.