Rick Astley

Rick Astley tells Questlove Supreme about rekindling an appreciation for his biggest hit, "Never Gonna Give You Up." He also discusses leaving the industry for over a decade, saving money, and discovering the Rick-Roll from a friend.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Quesch. Love Supreme is a production of I Heart Radio.
Ladies and gentlemen, Welcome to another episode of Question Love Supreme. Um,
Question Love your host ex. Actually have we ever a
tag team? Takolo? I don't think we have. This is

(00:22):
the it's the tag team just of Fine Tikolo and
Coarse Love. How are you doing? Man? How's how's your
week been? It's het um, but I did um. Are
you about to talk about it? Uh? Yeah, yeah yeah,
I mean yeah. We We had our first like little
brother show like two years over the like last weekend.

(00:45):
How was that? It was insane, very surreal. Afterwards, I
had these two kids come up to me and we're like,
this is the greatest show we've ever seen. Two white
girls seventeen and her sister who was twelve. Wow, that
was the first. The two year old she said it
was the first show she'd ever been to ever. And

(01:07):
I was sitting there talking with my home girl Shoulette,
and we were just sitting there and I was like,
hi my. They was like, oh my god, you guys
were getting so high. It was so great. And I
love the pink. I love you in the picture. We
love the pink. I was like, okay, thanks for the
fashion too, you know what I mean? But how how
did they know to even see you? Well, they were
for them were younger than your career. Straight up. I

(01:27):
got albums older than both of them. So they were
We were opening for a band called silvan Esso and um,
they big up to them. That's that's yes. So they
did like a three night kind of festival thing in
Durham and we were like the support act for night too,
and uh yeah man. We came out there and you know,

(01:47):
it was our first show me and who put the
set together like the night before. I was like, okay, Wenna,
do this, do that, do that? And we went out
there and at the end of the show, towards the end.
Normally we were asked at the beginning, but for this
night we asked the end. It was like how many
of your was your first time seeing a little brother
for the first time, and like the hands went up.
They had no idea who we were, but like we
rocked that ship and so um it was. It was crazy.

(02:09):
It was really like to be you're now a twenty
year veteran, straight up no bro facts, Like twenty years
in to still be picking up new fans. That is,
that's kind of surreal. And I'm noticing too that post
COVID crowds. I don't know. And Rick, we can ask
you about this as well if you want to win.
It seems to me like post COVID concert crowds and
pre COVID concert crowds are two different things, yes, because

(02:31):
like everybody's high. Everybody high. Yeah, I'm just I mean,
I remember the first gig we did. Um hi, by
the way, I remember the first did I'm gonna introduce
you for good? This is like this is the cold Open. Okay,
that's good. Um yeah. First gig we did in the UK,
and that first gig was kind of crazy because we

(02:53):
did it at a place called Networth, which is a
legendary country house if you like, just outside of London
and seeing gigs done there. But we we played to
about two and a half thousand people instead of twoudre
fifty thousand people because they all brought their car and
they had a picnic space and so they all sat
in their cars or on the bonnet of the car,
the roof of the car, and they were all given

(03:14):
a picnic space. So it went on for about a
mile this this thing. But it was amazing because when
the sun went down, everyone was using the car lights
to sort of say yeah, yeah, yeah, and it was amazing.
So it was a really strange gig, but I could see,
especially in the crew and the people who have been
building the stage and that, you know what I mean,
and everything you could see people were really really emotional.

(03:36):
I mean being on stage as an emotional thing, full stop,
being on stage in front of a crowd. After that,
all that time that was it was amazing, absolutely incredible,
and we we did a few that summer that were
just just amazing. You know. It just made you feel lucky,
made you feel i don't know, like a new found
respect for being allowed to do what you do. You know,

(03:57):
it was very much like watching the Car Proud. It
was not versus in the past where you would see
people kind of in their bodies for lack of a
better world, where it's like so your hands up, screenshot whatever.
It's like all of that. You can just see them
just kind of in their heads like they're just watching
it and like, you know, like just kind of taking
it in and they're enjoying their having a ball, but

(04:20):
they're just in their heads just kind of watching it
and um, yeah, that was definitely something I noticed. I'm like, okay, yeah,
these post COVID shows, in the pre COVID this it's
a it's a whole well that said, ladies and gentlemen. Um,
I will say that our guest is probably beyond just fame. Okay,

(04:40):
So he's a musician, singer, songwriter from the UK. I
like to say the UK, like I'm from the UK,
only lived there for four years, but I make people
from the UK actually think that, you know that I'm
an actual, like lifelong resident there, you know. And he
came into our radar, at least my radar for a
lot of us here in the States. Uh. You know.
Of course in the late eight season made it absolutely

(05:01):
impossible to forget his music. And I'll say that's an
actual achievement. And even to this day, those singles, very strong,
very potent singles are dropped and it's instant happiness and joy,
you know, and even going as so much to say,
I'll be it kind of a an unusual achievement, but

(05:23):
I will I'll ask you, fante, if Michael Jackson owns
Halloween and Mariah carry owns Christmas, I almost think that
our guest today my own April Fool's Day, um, which
which is kind of a weird, a weird quote to say.
And you know, I'm not even a planet. Our guess
is a joke. Ord his music is a joke. Far

(05:44):
from it. But you know, for clarification purposes, I'll say that,
you know, we all live in the the you know
this like the year of really the internet, uh sort
of in our lives, and uh, yes, exactly, they have
been the first what we now know, his Internet being cultured, Like, yes,

(06:06):
that's the first one. I think he I think he
really was originated. Well definitely one of the earliest examples
of of the sticky factor as we you know, as
something viral, you know, which in the eyes of gen
Z like that's that's a serious achievement, um our guests, Yes,
it's it's the same. You know, you're you're, you're you
will be here forever long after we're we're going from Earth,

(06:29):
you know. And in the fact that even his name
cannot imply you know, not only being a proper nown,
but you know, to be Rick rolled is too. Is
the new Oki Doki falling for the Oki having successfully
pulled the prank. Um, I'll say that in my research,
I didn't realize that YouTube themselves, uh when they you know,

(06:52):
established in two thousand seven, two thousand eight, YouTube themselves
actually invented what we call rick rolling. For the two
three of you that don't know what rick rolling means,
it's it's the thing where someone shares a serious video
with you and then about twelve seconds and you're hit
with again the irresistible course of never going to give

(07:13):
you up. And you know, I will say that probably
doing the pandemic. I've a I'm giving a shout out
to my pal jin Grabel from Philadelphia, who is one
of the biggest rick Astly fans ever. I've fallen down
a vicious rabbit hole and looking at all anything that
you do in concert, Um, she'll instantly send me. So,

(07:35):
you know, to see these Springsteen covers are born to run,
and your Nirvana covers and and you know, the everything
from your food fighters, the A C. D C covers,
you want drums, all these things you're covering, like the
Smith songs. Like I'm really genuinely this, you know, I
had to have you on the show because I like

(07:56):
discovered a rekindled fandom for our guest today that goes
way beyond just like you know, the rick rolling part
of his career. But you know there's a long time coming.
So welcome to your quest of Supreme. This is brick Asd.
Thank you for joining us. Man, Thank you, it's a
pleasure to be Thanks for that extraordinary introduction as well.

(08:18):
I'll take that on board in a very half felt way.
So nice, nice to be. Well, we mean it were
you right now right now, we're between Vegas and Fresno.
I'm on tour right now. I got invited last year
to come to America and do a tour with Are
you ready for this? New kids on the block on
Vogue as I call them on Vogue. Told I've been

(08:40):
told you've got to say Envogue. I'm like, no, I'm European.
It's on Vogue and and and Salt and Pepper. And
we're having a lot of fun, I can tell you.
And we had a day off yesterday, which is which
is always nice. Obviously me and Vegas we had a
bit fun. But the kids have just been amazing and
it's very unusual for me because I haven't done anything

(09:01):
like this, certainly in America anyway where you get a
group of artists together and go out and do that.
I have done it in Europe in different places. I've
never really been to America and do it. And and
obviously it's we're just having a ball right now. So
so I'm on my bus right now heading to Fresnel.
So that that also explains, um, the video that came

(09:21):
out with the four of you bring Back the Time,
I believe. So it's so weird because normally, you know,
I'll see package tours and acts get together and you
know they might interact with each other whatever. But the
fact that you guys got together to sort of collaborate

(09:41):
and no one I saw this coming, Like, could you
explain the genesis of how that came to be? Who
put it together? So yeah, so we've got a phone
call and do you want to come and do the
mixtape tour? And for me, I was kind of like, well,
it's kind of America is a very different ball game.
For me. It's I grew up listening and what in
America and doing gigs here. Doing gigs here was always

(10:03):
kind of like one of the pinnacle things, you know,
having some records on the radio here was always an
amazing thing because I know then whether they liked them
or not, whether they liked my voice or not. I know,
Luther Vandrosser might me sing. I know Al Green did,
Bill with Us did, and those guys unknowingly taught me
to sing, you know what I mean. So I kind
of thought I always been coming to America is an

(10:24):
amazing thing. Um with a mixed tectory is something completely
different because the New Kids fans are absolutely crazy. And
I'm really sure they know by now because we've done
a few gigs that I mean that with a lot
of love. But they're absolutely crazy. So when I kind
of googled, googled the previous mixtape tools and the fans
of the everything, I spoke to Donnie Donnie Warburg quite

(10:45):
a bit about it, and I just so, you know what,
let's just do it. We're gonna have a lot of fun. Um.
It's not normal in the sense that because it's a mixtape,
I go on sing some songs and then I hang
around backstage and I watched the guys and I'm at
the side of the stage watching different artists, and then
I kind of get ready to go back and stage.
You're going to do it again, and I've never done that.
It's kind of a it's much more of a show

(11:07):
in that respect. Interact review. Yeah, exactly, And Johnny walked
me through that, and he talked me through that and
explained how they do it. And so I think once
you get over that and kind of realize what it
is is supposed to going up and opening for an
artist and doing five minutes during your hour and then
going off and done, it's a totally different thing. And
also one of the things that I have huge respect

(11:28):
for them for doing this. They opened the gig, they
go on first, and then they introduce, and then they
introduce an artist. Tell me a headline act in the world.
Who does that? Out pioneered this? Okay, so no, no, no, no,
but I no no ideas original. But you know, I

(11:51):
always hated the ideal of like someone goes on for us,
someone goes on second, which is you know, what's what
I'm also kind of I know it's comedy, but old
d o monique thing, because I just think that, you know,
it's more unique to do. Motown reviews used to be
that way, like three songs from CTV, three songs from

(12:12):
the Supremes three songs in and then people come back
and interact. So I've been I've been doing that for
like twenty years, and I'm finally when you said that,
I was like, Ah, finally someone else is doing it.
That's dope. Even up until two thousand, seventeen, eighteen, and nineteen,
there will be occasional towns in which the roots and
new kids on the Block will be in the same

(12:33):
hotel and absolutely nothing has changed, like now, you know,
Donnie told me, like you know, back in the day,
it was it was the mothers trying to hook up
the daughters. But now it's like you have daughters taking
their mothers too, new kids on the block shows and
they're hanging around the hotels. I'm telling you what has

(12:58):
kind of shocked me a little bit. Of course, most
of the audiences of an Age because they were there
for the first records, they bought the first records, they
went on all the tours. But I'm telling you, it's
kind of odd. There's a lot of younger people in
the audience and they know all their tunes and they
are like fully paid up members of being the blockhead
family and everything, and it's really nice to see. But
I think you know we're talking or you guys were

(13:19):
talking about the internet before. That's just changed the way
that everybody listens to music obviously and get to their music,
but also the way they feel about it. And they
don't sometimes have the same thing that I certainly did
when as a kid about oh that's for old people.
M And I don't think older people are afraid to

(13:40):
go and say, well, you know what, I want to
go and see this artist, even though I'm old enough
to be their mom or dad. I just want to
go and see them. And I think that that generational
thing has gone away to a great a great degree,
you know. Um well, I just think the the festival thing,
if you look at that, it's so plectic these days.

(14:01):
Who you can be on before or after all, on
the next stage to the it's just unbelievable. So when
you look at the audience there's a bit about as well,
you know, it's it's a it's a random bank of
people that just want to wear music. You know, don't
really yeah, so it's it's I think it's quite a
beautiful thing, to be honest, But nowI do too. I
think this like with the audience now, you know, because

(14:22):
no one has to pay for music anymore. I think
that it's just pretty much they have the room to
explore in a way that we didn't. You know what
I mean. If we had to go to reggae store,
you had ten dollars, yet dollars was a choice. You
know what I'm saying. You had to make real decisions.
But now you know, with everything available, they just hear music,
you know, And I saw them that that was what

(14:44):
I saw it to get. Like, they don't even think,
like my kids and myself, like, they don't even look
in terms of genre or anything. If they like it,
they like it and that's all they know, and that's
all they care about. I think the other thing is
they don't they don't actually care if the artist is dead,
and I don't not in a cause where and no
emotion ware. They're just like, I love this, What is it?
Oh it's Frank Sinatra? Oh really do you know who Frank?

(15:06):
I was not really well coming up and look at this,
and I'll explain it to you in normal context, there's
no more new music, and all music it's music, you know,
Music's right. Yeah, So Keith tell us we're in the UK.
Were you born I'm assuming that you were born in UK.
Where were you born? You know? I was? I was.
I was born in a very very small town. And

(15:26):
it's equidistant from Liverpool and Manchester is right in the
middle of both of them. It's about twenty miles either side.
That town is called Newton Low Willows and that is
hyphenated as a Newton in the Willows. It sounds a
lot posher than it actually is. It's okay. It was
an okay place to go up and everything. And my
sister still lives there, and my mom up until she

(15:47):
passed away, recently lived there, and it's it's an okay town.
But it's a small town. And we then, so for
us go into either Manchester or Liverpool, was that our
way of going to a shop that might have some
actual trendy clothes or you know, more than one record store,
do you know what I mean? Where you could go
to like four of that, you know. And obviously the

(16:08):
first time we really went to stores to go and
look at musical instruments, that was in Manchester. Because you know,
you jumped on the train or you've got you know,
an older brother's sister to take you and you went
into Manchester. That was our big deal with you know,
I see um. Can you tell me what your first
musical memory was. It's hard to say obviously for anybody.

(16:29):
I know. The jungle Book record was a massive thing.
For me. I mean, all kids love Disney and they
love music because it's because it's amazing. The quality of
it is always great. It's still doing great music. I
think um for the jungle Book. For me, we had
that vinyl record at home and I'm the youngest of four,
so my sister was into all kinds of music. She

(16:49):
used to go and watch a lot of what she
used to watch everything. She go into Manchester, Liverpool, and
so she had a really great record collection. But a
lot of her music was like there was a progressive
rock in it. But she'd also have like quite a
bit of Bowie where she'd have a lot of American
classic soul as well, Marv Engaged, Stevie Wonder obviously things
like that. She loved the Beatles as well, So I

(17:11):
broke with a lot of that. But I wanted the
Jungle Book because obviously to me, I've been taken to
the movies to see the film and once you've seen
a film like that, and then you've got the vinyl
of it at home, you can you can plan and
watch the movie again in your head, can't. I just
loved it, And that's so for me that I probably
just sat there waiting for everyone to leave the room
and then got my my moment to put because we

(17:32):
probably had one record player when I was five years
or you know what I mean, That was probably it.
So But I think in terms of I just went
to see Paul McCartney actually a week or so ago
in foult work in Dallas, and a lot of the
people's music as for anybody obviously of course for everybody
on the planet, but it was a bit of a

(17:52):
game change in some of those records, I think, even
as a really young kid, because a lot of their
music at certain times has got a lot of chance
like quality to it. There is we all, there's all,
there's we all live in a yellow submarine in there,
and that's that's a kid that brings you in, do
you know what I mean? And all of a sudden
you're listening to I don't know, the whole Stargeant Pepper
or what I've been thinking, what is this it's I

(18:15):
want to say childlike. I don't mean that in any
derogatory obviously. I mean there's a real innocence to some
of that stuff, even though it becomes really complicated and
intricate and beautiful as well, there's a real simplicity to
it at times, you know. So, so I think the
Beatles are quite an easy one to get into as
well well, because they were they were influenced by you know,
tim pan Alley, which you know that that sort of

(18:38):
era of music, a timpan Alley is closer to show
tunes and your musical stuff. Yeah, yeah, And you know
it's it's rather genius that you can create music that
an eight year old, that can stick to an eight
year old and an eighty year old at the same time. Absolutely. Hi,
do you remember the first music that you purchased yourself

(19:03):
with your own money? Well, it wasn't money exactly. My
dad had given me some money to go and buy
a pair of jeans, right and there was a store.
This wasn't in Manchester or Liverpool. This is a local
town towards a small town. There's a little store that
sold jeans and all kinds of different things that kids
where you know, and he gave me the money, and
I went in and I bought the jeans. I was

(19:25):
probably only about nine years old. Of his plays from
the outside in the car waiting for me kind of thing.
And I went in saying nine I could have whatever.
Went in and it also had like a little record
stores part of it, which is a bit bizarre, guest,
but whatever, And you brought a pair of jeans on
that day and they allowed you to have a single.
So I went in next door and I'm just looking.

(19:45):
I had no clue, and I knew my dad was
in the car like waiting. It's like he's not going
to be messed around, you know. So I just said,
I'll have what others number one please? And it was
luckily it was I feel loved by Donna Summer. So
I'm got a great record out of it. Anyway. Yeah,
but that but that wasn't my um. So I was eleven,

(20:06):
I think um that it wasn't necessarily a choice, and
it wasn't really my money, if you know what I mean.
It sort of came with the pair of jeans. But
it was quite It was quite a thing because when
I went home, I suddenly kind of realized I owned
this record. It's not one of my brothers and my sisters,
this is mine, do you know what I mean? Because
all I've done really was just pinched their records and
just played then. You know, that's all I've done up

(20:26):
to that point. So at least by that point did
you have a singing voice? Were you? I was always
picked to be in school place. I was in a
church choir as well. But it's not as you guys
will know. It's not a gospel or anything. It's a
very very Church of England and very kind of straight
and white like you know that. But it's still singing

(20:47):
with other people and that I still think that thing
of a choral group of people making that I'm going
to say noise. I'm not gonna finding music right now.
Just making that noise together is the most what's the
word to use, It's the most sort of prime evil
way of making music because you know, when you take
away the organists and I remember we used to do that.

(21:08):
We used to sing just on our own a lot
of the time, especially when he was like getting us
through different pieces to learn them and everything. It's just
a bunch of people using this to make a noise
and it's quite I'm not saying I used that at
all today, but I think it's still it did something
to me even I did it for a couple of years,
but it definitely made be aware of the fact that

(21:29):
a group of people come together harmonized or not and
what have you, and make music and that's and there's
no even instrument to go through. Jim mean, And I
even think from the time and point of view, because
I got into playing drums and as a little kid
and stuff, and I would say a little kids was
probably in the teenage, is if you're not in sync
and in time is acquired, it's just a mess. And

(21:51):
I think that even sort of got me going a
bit with you know, got to be on the river,
you know, on the beach everything you basically singing with
the choir tochi how to blend with other voices, and
I guess, yeah, I mean, I'm still not very good
at that now, to be honest, I'm one of those
archetypal kind of big head from person singers that when

(22:12):
I'm try and do harmonies, I'll do the harmony and
I'm great, and then at some part I go I've
lost it. Now and I start singing they because I
find it really hard to do it. And even when
I do, you know, when I'm working on something at
home and I'm just putting harmonies in and stuff, sometimes
have to map them out on the piano and then
find them into my head, do you know, I mean
literally to be able to get me singing the army.

(22:32):
So yeah, I don't know. So So by the mid seventies, um,
And I've heard you know, this narrative from people that
grew up in London at the time. I mean, so
many types of music, um, sort of avenues could be
traveled by, Like of course, you know, the the punk

(22:53):
movement is you know, is ramping up. Then the sort
of I guess you could say mod movement or or
you know whatever they call Rudy's or or whatever you
would categorize the specials or madness that those types of
GPS or whatever, Scott groups or whatever. Um. And then

(23:13):
of course you know, I know about the history of
Northern Seoul and generally just you know, the respect that
the UK has for soul music in general. Um. And
of course you know seventy seven is where disc goes.
Also having its moment um what grabbed you. I mean
to be eleven at that time, when there's like five

(23:35):
options to go to, what grabbed you the most? Um,
I think I think I've always still I always have
responded to singers full stop, because I think as much
as I admire I mean, you know, prospiple getting too
that I don't know, but I mean, because I started
playing drums as a kid, I always loved fans that

(23:58):
had interesting drummers, sort the Police I have that he loved,
and they weren't punk, but they sort of came out
of the thing. Phil Collins is one of my all
time favorite drummers and he's not even remembered as a
drummer at the time. It's ridiculous. But anyway, but they go,
they go, I know for that. I think certainly with
my sister, played a lot of Motown at home and

(24:18):
a lot of Northern Soul as well actually, and they're very,
very very similar, to be honest, I struggled to find
out which is which half the time, but whatever, and
all of those records and very much about the vocals.
I mean, you were mentioned in Motown before about when
they used to go out and do tours and stuff
like a review tour and stuff. Any one of those
vocalists would, in my opinion anyway, kind of wipe the

(24:41):
floor with with a lot of people who had the
chance to make records since to be honest, I think
Motown was an absolute golden era for vocalists. Was even
though the songwriters and producers of those records were incredible
and amazing and they had such a platform to go
from as a singer, those voices have stood the test

(25:03):
of time forever, and I don't think there's a person
with a pulse that doesn't respond to Motown. And obviously
it's the groove, it's the feel, it's the everything. It's
also because Marvin Gay, Down, a Ross, whatever, you know,
name any of them, when they sang you didn't question
it at all. It was just truly amazing. Do you

(25:27):
have a memory of your first concer? I can't remember
which came first. My sister, like I said, used to
go to gigs all the time. So when I was
about ten, um, my sister took me to see one.
One was Super Tramp, which is self explanatory for anybody
who knows Super Tramp music, and I'm sure everyone does
unless you've been living under a rock as a ten

(25:49):
year old kid, I was completely blown away, but blown
away in loads of different ways. Because I was ten,
I shouldn't really have been there perhaps, but she I
think she used to think I was like fashion accessory
to bring a ten year old kid to a gig
where everyone's kind of smoking different things and what have
been hanging out and deliver. But it just blew me away.
And their music I think is because the other band,

(26:12):
and I don't know which was first, it was a
band called Camel and that's a progressive rock band. And
I've said this before, who have flute solos longer than
some of the records I've made, you know what I mean.
So it's kind of like, yeah, I mean, I mean,
you know, it wasn't about vocalists. It was about the
music it was, you know. And for the Super Tramp one,
I think it was amazing for so many different reasons.

(26:35):
They were, well still are, but they were such an
amazing band because they had great, like sort of pop songs.
Maybe that's not a fair turn to call them, but
they were very popular. So there were pop songs, but
the instrumentation and the way they used to go about
it was really quirky, was really different and kind of
a bit like nothing else, but to me anyway, listening
to it. So I came out of well both those gigs,

(26:56):
but I can't remember which one was first, and I
think it was a game changing for me. I kind
of thought, I want to do that because when the
lights went down, it's turned on the smoke machine and
then the cord lights come on and it all even
back then, you know, going to a gig was like
this mystical, mythical experience. It was like something. It was
like another world, you know. So yeah, so I think

(27:17):
both of those were game changes a big time. The
first van you were in it was called f FBI.
Well that that was the second one. I was in
a band called give Way because we have a sign
in the UK. You may have it in American. I
can't remember that. It's a triangle. It says Giveway and
our bass player Jeff stole one on the way hole
from somewhere and stuck it in front of my drums

(27:38):
and I said, oh, that's what we're called then, right, Okay,
So um, yeah, that was That was when I was
still at high school, as you call it. And there
were three bands who did an audition for the music
teacher to see who could play at the Valentine's Disco, right,
And we were like fifteen going on sixteen at this point.

(27:58):
And I was never one of the cool kids at school.
I wasn't really a geek. I wasn't like, you know,
a swap or whatever. I just I just got through school,
if you know what I mean. I just kept my
head down and got through it. The other couple of bands,
one of them was all the cool kids, like there
was a captain of the football teach soccer team, captain
of this still you know, the good looking guys. They

(28:20):
had all the nice guys. But you know, I mean
they were the cool kids, you know, and we weren't.
But we could play. So so we did the audition
and we blew the other bands away. I was singing
so Lonely by the Police from the drums, which was
like the coolest thing in the world because it was like,
you know, we were doing police songs and they were
doing something that wasn't anywhere needed cool with that, and

(28:42):
we did a couple of things. We also did a
joy Division song, which again was like just the coolest
thing in the world. I think it's you know, the
teachers were not expecting that at all, and so we
got the gig and I got five Valentine's Cards that year.
I are you the lead singer in the group or no, no, no,

(29:02):
the basse player Jeff was. But I used to sing
a couple from the drums and and the gays was
then hard as things sold only I sang it an
operative lower right, yeah, yeah, yeah, And I just think
again talk about pivotal moments and stuff. Not because I
got the Valentine's cards, but we were We walked around

(29:24):
school for the next two weeks as if we were
different people like people, and I'm not we we didn't
have high five back then. ADULT think. I don't think
it was a thing to high five somebody where it
was like people just kind of like you know what
I mean, just getting acknowledged in the corridors at school
or right in the playground or what we were just
we became different people overnight because we've done this gig

(29:47):
and it was like, yeah, I don't know, really, it
was very It was very interesting, I think in terms
of your ego and just the absolute joy of walking
on stage going wow, we just we just did that.
That just happened. People actually listened to dance and you know, so, yeah,
it's pretty amazing. I went through that in high school,
but I wasn't the band that blew everyone away. I

(30:09):
was one of the bands that got blown away because
I I went to school with boys two men. So yeah,
so I still say they cheated, but you know they
you know, they had tuxedos and glitter and top hats
and canes and everything, and they were saying that they

(30:30):
were saying new addition songs, and I just felt like
all my hopes and dreams to impress, like who I
wanted to impress, just it went down the drain because
like I could they sing that great then as well?
Really great? Dude? They were? They were, yes, they were.
Ever there was a group of people ready for their
close up. It was boys the men. And the thing

(30:51):
was that after that Valentine's the thing was over. Like
girls were treating them like it was you know, you
ever see the I Want to Hold Your Hand movie
first film about the Beatles. Yeah, like they were chasing
them in like seventh period and all this stuff, and
I'm like it's just them, Like what the hell they're

(31:13):
not stars. They go to our school. But yeah, they
after that performance, things were never the same again, listen,
I feel your pain. I also think it's a weird, weird,
weird thing. No, I was not one of the kind
of cute kids at school or good looking kids by
any stretch of the imagination, right, But I think what
happens is when you've been on TV and on a

(31:37):
record cover and on what have you, the media themselves
start calling your handsome or start calling you something. I
don't know what, but you know, and and it's like,
now you got this wrong. I'm exactly the same as
I was last week. It's just about a hit record.
But I mean, that is pretty crazy to be at
school with boyster men and them singing the way they do.
If they were singing like that back then, that must

(31:58):
have been wild. Yeah, they had every grow in the
palm their hands. Were you thinking of a music career
by this point or was it just like, you know,
old school and then go to university and no, I
think I wanted to. I think my upbringing was kind
of what was it. I'm from a very working class area,
but my dad had a little business he had. He

(32:19):
ended up having a little garden center, and we all
we all my two brothers and my sister and all
of us kind of off and on did work there.
And I used to work there in school, holidays and
after school and all the rest of it. And so
we were lucky in the respect that we did kind
of have a little job to go to. He didn't
have a big he didn't employ lots of people, and
I think he employed one or two other people, and
then we kind of work and stuff. And the way

(32:41):
we were from was kind of hit very very badly
in the mid and late eighties in terms of the
way that the world change. You know, we don't we
don't manufacture so much in the UK anymore, like like
America to that degree, you know, and we don't do
a lot, you know, coal mines and all the all
the old things that industry. Yeah, and people certainly from

(33:01):
the little town where I'm from and a lot of
towns around it, those things don't exist anymore. And it
was in that transition period, you know. So we were
really lucky that my dad did have a little business
and it survived and everything, but we didn't really have
a lot of money or anything like that, and I
think for me, I just I wanted to I wanted
to get out of that little town and I wanted

(33:23):
to go and do something with my life. I don't
know what what that meant, um and I think the
truth of it was I kind of felt that music
was a way of possibly doing that, and I did
love music, don't get wrong, I did. You know, I
got a drunk it when I was fifteen, and I
was never ever off it, just ever. I used to
play in my dad's greenhouse, which he used to have
this fairly big glass house, you know, where the plants

(33:43):
were and all the rest of it. Any allowed myself
to have a drunk it there and my two friends
to come and play there as well, which is we
made an awful backing even though we were you know,
we thought we were great. But um so that was
pretty lucky. But I also think my mom and dad
divorced when I was really really young, and I didn't
have the happiest of home lives, if you know what
I mean. It wasn't it wasn't tough, It wasn't horrible

(34:04):
in what a lot of people have been to, but
it definitely left the hole. There's no doubt about it
my mom and dad. They both passed away. Now, they
never spoke to each other ever. Um, if my mom
rang the house, my dad would just kind of like
he just put the phone receiver down and walk away.
And that's how we knew it was my mom. And
I was brought I was brought up by my dad.

(34:25):
I lived with my dad, because it's a long story,
but I saw my mom all the time. But I
think I also felt somehow, even at that age, and
I'm not saying I actually knew this, but I think
I felt it somewhere that music and getting out of
that was going to take me away from that, do
you know what I mean? It was going to give
me a different life where I could sort of start again.

(34:47):
And I think sometimes if you if you brought up
in a fairly unhappy house, which I was, um, you
just want to kind of like turn the key on
the door and walk into another space and just leave
it where it is, you know what I mean. I'm
not saying you can't ever go back there. I'm just saying,
just just start again. And I did. I did feel
that music was going to be the escape to do that,
you know, to becoming getting a successful bound and just

(35:10):
start again, you know, so when the moment happened for
you where you're like, Okay, I'm pursuing this. Um, I'd
have to say it. I was about seventeen, I think,
because the band that I got in next was called FBI.
And the first group I was in that we were
in for a little while. One of the guys went

(35:31):
to university and so we just and he's still a
friend today. Actually I see him for coffee like once
two weeks were he went to university and you know
all the rest of it, and we just split up.
So I joined this other group and they were like
they were called FBI because of um uh. It goes
back to a group called the Shadows, who were the

(35:54):
backing band for Cliff Richard. You know what Cliff Richard is,
He's an English Cliff. Yeah, it goes through. So he
was like the English Elvis if you like, you know
what I mean. He was like that, you know, And
and they had a song called FBI. I think I
think that's where it comes from. And the guy who
was the lead guitarist in this in this band that

(36:15):
had joined Cold FBI was a Shadows freak. He absolutely
loved them, and so his dad. I think he got
it from his dad really, So they were doing covers
like that. They were doing a lot of early early
People's songs, which are fantastic and great, don't get me wrong,
but I would have loved to have been playing some
of the later people sons, but we weren't. We were
playing the really really early ones, which is still great,

(36:36):
like I say, and for a young band to learn
to learn them anyway. Um, And I got in that band,
that's the drummer, and I sort of became the singer
because I wanted us to kind of try and write
some of our own material. And I borrowed a guitar
from one of the guys and he showed me the
three chords, and so I turned up at rehearsal a
few weeks later and said, I've written some songs. Should

(36:56):
we thrash them out? And I sort of became the
singer because of that, really, because they were all looking
at me, going, well, who's going to sing that? You know?
And they said, well, you are so so that that's it.
So we got a drum out and then from that
point I think I just sort of became the singer
by default. Really And at that point I thought, if
we're going to make this happen, I'm gonna have to

(37:16):
push and drive this. And I think when you started
doing your own songs, you think that's a different thing.
That's not just earning a living on a Friday and
the Saturday and having a regular job. Do you know
what I mean? Like doing your job and then earning
a bit of extra money. That's how do we how
do we become how do we become known? How do
we get people to hear these songs? And that that

(37:37):
at that point is like, well, that's what I'm going
to do. Then you know, by this point are you
developing the voice that we know now or you're still
trying to find well. I think I think one of
the things is I think in the eighties and eighties
a lot a lot of British music there was there
was more kind of it was part definitely pop, and
it was in the charts. It was successful, but it

(37:57):
was a lot of people sang with a much lower
tone or a lower register with their voice. It was
very normal today and I think for twenty five years
or more, everything is very very high with male singers
most of the time, and I think back then, a
lot of records had a lot of by For instance,
the guy called Edwin Collins who was in a Bangko
Orange Juice right, and he had this point, yeah, yeah,

(38:20):
and there was there was a lot of them. There
was I'm trying to think by now and I can't
because I'm on the spot to think of them. But
what I'm trying to say that there were a lot
of voices that were deeper and it was kind of
cool to be that. It was edgy and it was cool.
But then when I listened to, for instance, if I
listened to like Bill Withers, Bill Withers is obviously the greatest.
He's written some of the greatest. Two One of the

(38:42):
things I absolutely loved, until love about Bill Withers is
that he's written some of the biggest songs in the
world that five year old kids to eight five year
old grandmas know, everybody knows, they've been in the movie
do everything. But he could probably be sat next year
eating a bowl of pasta in a nice restaurant somewhere
and I think ninety five to nine of the people

(39:02):
in the room wouldn't be able to recognize him. And
I think that was for me, it was like an
amazing thing about him really, But again that's another another
universe to walk into. But I think but he had
all the soul in the world, his lyrics, the actual
music itself and the way he played and everything. But
his voice obviously was incredibly soulful. But he didn't really

(39:23):
do tricks with his voice. He didn't. He didn't do
lots of trills and lots of this, that and the other,
which a lot of people do associate with soul and
R and B and everything. He didn't do that. He
was for me, he was like a folk singer. Just
there's a lot of soul in it. And so I
think somebody like him. And even though Luther could obviously

(39:44):
do anything with his voice, and I remember seeing him
live and walking out of the room and just sort
of going, well, just forget it then, because that's that's
that's it. There it is, yes see, and in your
personal time you try to do a To be honest, no,
it's the answer. I very often still sing to this day.
I will always sing never too much to my wife

(40:04):
if wherever in the car that comes on or what
have you, because that's one of our songs. And I
always sort of sing along with it. But he was
one of those I don't care what anybody says about
anybody else. He was one of those singers that it
didn't matter what where he was in the whole range
of the human voice, it sounded good everywhere. He could
do anything. That guy. You know, so I got to

(40:27):
know Luther's longtime manager, step Gordon. I didn't realize how
big Luther was in the u K. Yeah, to the
point where I didn't realize that he could sell out
like arena. Yeah, Wembley was the gig back in the day.
Wembley was the gig in London. To go to Wembley Arena, Luther,

(40:50):
I think, I think multiple nights there. I think, yeah,
he did like eight or nine nights there. And he
was telling me that basically Luther had a more devoted
and diverse fan base for sure over there then he
you know here, I mean here, Yes, he could still
you know, sell out Master Square Garden all those things
like maybe one, two, three nights in a row. But

(41:12):
you know, he it took him a long time to
sort of cross over to a pop market, you know,
like here and now or do you give me the reason,
like there was occasional songs that made the top ten.
But yeah, I didn't realize until like I finally watched
like live In and Wimbley and realized that, Oh I
didn't realize that Luther was He was huge and also

(41:35):
he I think he and and a lot of other
artists around him, but I mean he for me vocally
is the pinnacle. Was no doubt really, But I mean
James Ingram was really big in the UK as well,
Jeffrey Osborne, A lot of those singers around that time
that that, you know, I think a lot of probably
a lot of ballots were bigger as well, if you

(41:56):
know what I mean. I think that was once probably
crossed them over to some degree as well. You know.
But we used to go we would go, I say,
we're a group of friends, some of which most of
which were in the second band I was in. Um
we would go to a little night where we would
go to different clubs around us actually in different towns

(42:17):
and into Manchester and stuff. But in our little town
of Newton, Louillo's, we have a little cricket club and
it's been there forever and they used to have Monday
nights and Friday nights and the Monday nights were under
eighteen and the Friday we're over eighteen. So there was
alcohol and all the rest of it. But they also
used to have occasionally on a Friday night, they had

(42:38):
a guy called Kevi Edwards who was a DJ in
the town I'm from, and he would only he would
only play records that I'm not saying all of them
were imported, but he always used to have records before
anybody else, so he would play and we all used
to go and we dress up. We wore jackets of times.
This is in the this is in the sort of

(42:59):
six right, We would go and wear jackets and ties.
What I'm saying, for sure cheap ones. You know, we
just brought these jacket the ties with god knows where
do you know what I mean. But we'd all go
and we're dancing lines and all the girls, especially you,
dance moves and different routines, and a certain would come
on and for instance, let's say, I'm not sure when

(43:20):
Never too Much came out exactly, but let's say that
that song came on. Some of the girls have actually
even have a routine for it. Oh really, So it
was choreographed and and that's that's not just my little
town where I'm from. That is especially that that was
a very between in the north of England but also
in the south if you speak to people about I

(43:40):
mean not just Luke Devano's obviously, because I like to
say he was probably the biggest one to cross over
in so many different ways. I think a lot of
that music that was around it came from America. Black
American soul music was a massive part of our getting
down and having a good night and having a good
you know, we wouldn't even drink alcohol. We just go
out and drink an orange treete or a coker or

(44:02):
what have you, because we wanted to go and dance
to music. And that was a big thing for us,
It really really was. But another idea now we just
do it on TikTok. You know what I'm saying, Take
us on the pairfect leads you to actually pursuing a

(44:26):
solo career. Um and and meeting with stack it well,
we were the second band I was in FBI. We
weren't really making waves exactly, but we were getting back
to gigs and we were earning a bit of money
and we were this that and the other. We had
one or two record labels coming out of a look
at us, but they were a bit you know, we
were too naive really and we didn't really have it

(44:48):
together really. But anyway, one of the guys who came
up to see us actually saw us in what we
used to call a battle of the bands, where you
would you would have you know, over over maybe a
up the nights or even a couple of months on
different nights, banks would come together from an area and
we'd all be competing for a prize basically, but also
it was like little audience you could get together. It's

(45:10):
to judges in one of those, and he requested that
he really would like to see us against In other words,
we did a showcase for him with a couple of
other bands, and it sort of turns out that we
kind of did that really because he liked my voice,
heard something in my voice that he thought that there
was some potential in it and he could do something
with it. So he asked me to come down to London,

(45:34):
and I did with with the two guys who were
kind of managing us at that point, and I didn't
really exactly grasp who he was or what he was,
but he had red leather pants and he had a Jaguar.
That was enough for me. That was enough. Red leather
pants and a Jaguar, I mean, come on, yeah. So

(45:56):
so I went down to London to meet him and
he kind of explained that, look, he wasn't interested in
signing the band. He didn't really want to work with fans.
He wanted to work with vocalists because he was part
of this trio that we do it. And they weren't
really famous at that point. They hadn't really had any
really big hits at that point. They were just on
the cost of it. They were right on the edge

(46:16):
of it. But I didn't know that. But I kind
of thought, well, I signed a little deal with their
production company after about six months of chatting a couple
of times about it, because I didn't really want to
leave my friends, which they were. They were, you know,
my closest friends and the rest of it. But in
the end, I thought, look, I drive the van, I
write the songs, and sometimes I have to get people
out of bed, so I'm just going to give this
a try. And I did. And however, was it breaking

(46:40):
the news to them though? What that wasn't comfortable at all.
I thought one or two of us were going to
come to actual you know, first to everybody didn't. They didn't,
and it was all, you know, but it wasn't going
from us. Um. And at one point we were just
going to try and keep the band together and I
was just going to pursue this and see what happened
and see if could marry the two together or get

(47:02):
something going with a single or two and then see
what we could do. Um. But anyway, I signed a
deal with him after after a little while, and then
and then amazingly, um they had a number one record
with an artist called Princess Um Samuel number one. They

(47:22):
did you know that? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, starters ad didn't
we see from the UK? Yeah yeah yeah, dog got
the season in Brooklyn? No, no, no, my god, damn
you number one. I did it. So I was kind

(47:43):
of around. They had their own studio, and I was
kind of around in the process of them. I'm not
saying I was on the sessions. I wasn't, but I
was kind of around a little bit. And so they
had this number one records and everyone in the business
in the UK went, what is that? Who is that?
What's was who she bots, who produced it. We wrote
it What's going on? Um? Because it was quite it

(48:06):
was a big record, It was a number one record,
but I mean it was also quite a sort of
an ear turn. It was like, what is that? Because
it was it was? It was in another It had
like a toe in a lot of different places, if
you know what I mean, a finger in lots of pies.
I don't know. It wasn't I'm not saying it wasn't
R and B, but it sort of wasn't. And it
was very British sounding, but it also sounded kind of

(48:27):
like she was a great singer. Obviously it's a great
you know what I'm saying it it could have been.
It was a lot of things, you know. Anyway it
was it was to me it was like the last song.
It wasn't a ballot, but it also wasn't a jam.
But I was heard it in clubs and even the
even the pord structures and stuff like. It was very
dreamy sounding and yeah, very very unique song. Love. I

(48:51):
think it's a cool record. I think so so anyway,
so and at the time they're also working, um, they
just started working around time on Dead or Alive, so that,
you know, you spin me around the record, that whole
album and everything and and the record industry. I think,
I mean, I'm going back. I'm kind of putting the thoughts.
I'm not saying to have the thoughts at the time.

(49:11):
I'm just remembering what was going on and what I
must have been thinking. But they they were looking at meeting,
we will signed this kid, and I think they'd signed
somebody else as well. We're not going to get to
work on because all of a sudden, we're like beginning
to be a little bit hot at producer writers, and
people are asking for us to do things. So we
can't start doing our own projects because people are throwing
money out us and we need to pay the bills.

(49:32):
So in a nutshell, Heep kind of sat me down
and said, look, we're gonna you know, we are going
to make a record, but we've got to get on
with this thing right now. Do you want to come
and live in London and you become like an assistant,
hang out of the studios, get to see how we
do things. Because I was green this glass, I was
pretty nervous. I don't have been like twice in my
life before then. Anyway, you know. And so I got

(49:55):
to live and I ended up living it's flat for
the first weeks of it and everything, and I just
used to go into the so I would go. He'd
be driving his Posh because he had a Porsche as
well at this point, so he must have been doing
something right. Um, he'd be driving this Posch and he'd
be on his massive eighties phone having these conversations and
I'm sat next to him, his nineteen year old kid, going,
I have no idea about the language is using because

(50:16):
it was all about record deals and A and R people,
which I didn't even know what an arm and was
at that point, all this different stuff and I'm just
trying to soak it up and learn, you know. So
I ended up being at their building i'd say for
nine months, maybe even a year, and I made tea, coffee,
got the sandwiches like all the other kids did in
the building, you know, all the tapeops as it used

(50:37):
to be. And then Banana Arma came in the building
and they made some great records for them, and it
just kept so they made all this and then there
was this a sister's duo called melan Kin who he
had a massive success with as well the Week Yeah
he did that too. Yeah yeah, they did that. But
it feels like yeah, the three eyes you mean yeah

(51:01):
yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah, they don't work together anymore,
but they're all still going yeah yeah yeah yeah. Dude,
no clue that this was coming from London, Like in
my my head, like I thought this was all like
New York stuff, Like, well, they would be they would
be really happy to hear that, to be honest, because
I think but I think the thing with those guys,

(51:22):
what you used to frustrate me at times later on
this is is that they got pigeonholed. But they almost
did it themselves. They kind of created a sound and
went that's what we do and that's it right well,
and I think artists fitted into that sound more than then,
but in the early beginnings of it, I don't think
they did. If you listen to that say, I mean
number one record, you listen to Spin Me Around, you

(51:44):
listen to Melan Kim, they have very three, very different
sounding records, different artists, different everything, and I think they
wanted to emulate like a motown. But unfortunately for me,
I think they didn't then go out and try and
find Dana Ross, Marvin Gay, Stevie Wonder. They thought they
were good enough to get anyone to sing their songs
and still have that thing, you know what I mean?

(52:06):
So at what point are they ready to put you in?
Like one of the things that one of the issues was,
well this is well, I'll just explain this for a second,
because right, so they'd signed me to their production deal, right,
but the little production company which sort of went on
on the back burner, it kind of got shoved to
the side because they were producing major hit records for artists,

(52:29):
and you know with big record deals, you know what
I mean. So Pete Walter said, right, I need to
sign Rick to a major record label because this is
the way this is going to work. Really them doing
it themselves. They did do eventually, but I think they
just thought, we just need to get them signed to
a major record label and give it a really big

(52:50):
pustion all the rest of it. I think they were
seeing what was happening with some of those records and thinking,
right now, at the end of the eighties, you need
to be with a major label. That's the way to
do that, you know what I mean. So, um so
we went to see a guy called Peter Robinson. There
was the head of A and R at R C
A in the UK. Lovely guy. I've just just met
him again recently a few times, actually, lovely guy. And

(53:11):
he said, well, this is all great to Pete Waterman,
but I need to wear rip sing in front of me.
I need to see him sing songs here, sing these
just sing some songs for me. I can't sign the
guy just because you know he's going to be your
next startist and you say he's great and all the
rest of it. What a novel idea that that doesn't
happen now? Yeah, Well, so we're in the car, we're

(53:33):
in the Porsche on the way back, and he's on
the phone right, and he said to Matt Mike, which
is stuck and aching and they are the two musicians
in the threes. Really pizza more A and R and
ideas and all that. Right, you need to do like
a little showcase with Rick singing for Pete Robinson at
R C A. And they both went, Nope, that's not
what we do. We're making records. So Pezze said, right,

(53:55):
you know those demos you've got Rick and I've done
these little demos in a four track studio back in
the hometown where from and we're up north, went home,
got the vocals taken off, brought them down on a cassette,
played the cassette for Pete Waterman, Peter Robinson from our
t A, a couple of other people, one of my
kind of managers at the time, and I sang on

(54:17):
an Smift microphone, which to everybody listening, he doesn't know
is the bog standard you used in it? Yeah, yeah,
there you go, no reverb, And it just came out
of the ship and speaker that I found in the
basement because I was one of the tapops making team
getting the biscuits right, so I knew were there was.
And I sang in the reception to four of my
songs that I've done right. I played everything, demode and everything.

(54:40):
So as soon as I've finished the songs. Peter Robinson
from our c A who wrote these songs, and Pete
Waterman at this point has got no intention of me
ever writing the side. Always a great songwriter as well,
so because obviously he knew within a second that that
that was that was his way that he was going

(55:01):
to get a major deal. The artists that they signed
and owned and you know whatever. So I ended up.
I ended up from that point getting like I got
four songs on the first album. I didn't get a
single on the first album, but I got four songs,
and I got like a few more on the next
record and stuff like that. But I was sort of
all of a sudden, I was getting to do my demos.

(55:23):
I think it already was, actually, but I was getting
to do like it really was getting to do my demos.
I'm like an SSL board with an engineer who last
week had been making a number one record, which dead
or Alive or whatever, and I'm doing my demos like
that because that's just the way it was, you know.
And I used to do them at the weekend or
through the night, and so I can't remember what we

(55:45):
were talking about because I'm getting excited again remembering all that.
But anyway, it was like a mad It was a
mad one of those moments where it's like, I'm just
going to sing their songs and that's cool. We'll just
see where it goes. Two. Okay, now my songs are involved.
And they were nice songs. Don't get me wrong, they
really really were. But you know, yeah, I don't know.
I was really lucky, I think, to be at the

(56:06):
stock aching Waterman moment where it exploded and they became
this huge thing. And even though hung around for almost
a year making tea and getting the sandwiches and tidying
up the room, you know what mere doing all of
that stuff, I also got to do a lot of stuff,
Like I used to go to the pub every night
with the guys and I was allowed to sit on
their table. Why they talked about, you know, how to

(56:27):
produce this, and they talk about, well have you heard
this new record that kicked on the way that that
was this or this baseline is amazing or what it was.
It was like a like doing an internship. But I
just didn't realize I was doing it. You know, were
you around for like one of the songwriting sessions when
they're putting songs together or is it always just here

(56:48):
sing this? I mean no, I mean they're never going
to give you up. For instance, the first, you know,
my first song and the biggest one. Obviously, they've hired
a guy called Ian Kerner who was a and he
wasn't a programmer, but he became a programmer for them.
And I mean programming the loose terms of He was
an amazing keyboard player, and he you know, put tracks together,
falling stuff and ideas and stuff. So Mike Stock came

(57:11):
down to his room and I was literally making the coffee.
I remember it. I just made a fresh pot of coffee.
Mike Stock comes down. They just brought a fair Light computer.
I don't know whether you guys ever worked with a
fair light in the day. Yes, And I was like
completely blown away by this. I was like, what what
world are we living in? You know? And so he
and set to work, and Mike Stock came down. He

(57:32):
put the chords in and he kind of sang in
the melody, the rough melody, you know, um, and he
was making some notes and all the rest of it.
So I just kept eating, going the coffee and biscuits
and sandwiches or whatever he wanted. And I sat there
having just heard my first single, and then kind of
watched it get put together. And then obviously we went
upstairs and took it into the big room and all

(57:53):
the rest of it, and you know, and that song
went through so many transitions because the baseline and the
drums were very, very different than when they began and
I've got to give credit to the stock and we
want the guys for that, but I've got to give
more credit to Colonel Abraham's to be honest, because they
pinched the baseline from tracks. Yeah, exactly. And I think

(58:14):
I was kind of one of the only artists who
was actually part of their set up, if you know
what I mean. A lot of the other artists came
in and yend some of them actually wrote with Stock
anking Mormon or just came into the vocals or whatever
it was. But I'd literally been around to the you know,
the greasy spoon cafe to get their lunches for the
last six months, do you know what I mean, and

(58:34):
got the coffee and all the rest of it. And
I even remember there was one session where a guy
had coming to do a sax solo on a song.
It was actually they were doing a cover of any
Prods to beg by the Temptations because people wanted me
to sing some songs like that just to test my
voice out and see whatever. So this guy came in
to do a solo on it and he said, he said,

(58:55):
who's singing? That it's a great voice, that who's singing?
And Matt Aki, one of the producers said, don't say
too much because he's just walking in now with your coffee.
It's like it was like it was so upside down
that I'm making coffee for the guys doing the saxophone solo.
Oh my god, dumb record. But it was also it
was also pretty amazing because I kind of felt a

(59:17):
bit more part of it, and I felt a bit more.
I'm not saying that I earned the right to be there,
but I think I at least I understood a bit
more than than perhaps sometimes when a young kid gets
plucked from obscurity, just so right, sing this right, off
you go. This is the suit you're gonna wear, now,
off you go. Do you know what I mean? I
just felt like I kind of yeah, you know that

(59:40):
that was Marvin's start to you know, he started out
at Motown running errands. Yeah, he was like running errands first,
and then like he was like house drummer, and then
you know, once he started coozing up to Anna Gordy,
then she realized that he had a velvety voice and
was sort of like, hey, you're know, you're obviously doing

(01:00:01):
the wrong jobs. You it's time when you start singing,
I can't even imagine that. He's also one of the
most beautiful looking man that's ever walked the earth. And
it's like that the way he looked at that voice,
like somebody see that before, you know, that's how he
nabbed Anna Gordy to to get to the front of
the line. Um, so you know, and your well to

(01:00:22):
hear you tell the story. It's like, you know, you
you were just around you running errands, You're going to
sing the song whatever. At what point does it hit
you that, like, yo, um, this is making it because
it's not like you're one, you know, and I know
that this song is now going to live forever in

(01:00:44):
in you know, pass pop culture. Um, but it's also
overshaddling the fact that you also had like eight other
you know, top ten hits as well. Yeah, but I
also think that happens without is sometimes. I mean, obviously
you can look at great so I don't know how
many great and a lot of artists and I'll throw
myself in that I've got one that everyone remember them from.

(01:01:07):
And then when they go on Spotify or I mean,
they go, oh, I can't remember that one as well?
And oh did he do that. Didn't know that, you
know what I mean, there's a bit of that going on.
But so I don't feel any I'm not I don't.
I don't have any hangups about I'm glad I've got
that song because it it's sort of opens doors and
windows for me all the time. So I'm okay with it,
you know. But it's weird to hear that because most

(01:01:28):
of the time I'll run into artists that hate their
biggest you know, like Nirvana famously stopped playing smells like
teen Spirit the last year and a half. They lassul
hates me myself and I I'm working with Mary J.
Blige right now and Jesus Age like, you know the
amount of number one songs he has where he's like,

(01:01:48):
I don't do that no more. I don't do that
no more. I don't do it like it's like good morning.
I think I think a lot of it, though I
don't know. We're jumping times frame now, but a lot
of it goes to the fact that when I kind
of quit, um I was about and I quit for
a lot of reasons. I've had enough. I knew the
writing was on the wall to sustain any kind of

(01:02:09):
pop career. It's almost impossible to be honest, as we say,
there are some great you've done it, but it's it's
so difficult, you know, because it just is. And you've
got to give everything everything you've got, time wise, effort wise, everything,
all your energy everything to it. And I was a
bit sick of it, and I just didn't want to
do it anymore. Blah blah, all those reasons. I was
super lucky I got to do it for the time

(01:02:30):
I did um So I didn't sing never going to
give You Up altogether forever anything else for about fifty years.
The only time I have or maybe more, Actually, the
only time I ever did it was at friends weddings.
That's the only time I ever did it right. And
now I do it at friends kids weddings, which is
even which is even greater. To be honest, that really
that gets me right there, that they want me to
do that. So that's cool. But I didn't sing those songs.

(01:02:53):
I didn't sing never going to give you up, you know,
night after night. And I've sort of lived a very simple,
very comfortable thank Evans, and I do thank Evans, and
I'm grateful for that, but a very obscure life, if
you know, I mean in terms of like, you know,
I haven't been famous for all those years. In terms
of that, I mean, I know there's been a bit

(01:03:14):
of fame comeback because of Rick Rolling and the you
know whatever. And so I approached singing never going to
give you up completely differently I think than perhaps artists
who've done it for thirty three years. I when I
came back to it, Um, he's sort of happening in
two ways. A promoter who is massive in the UK
and is involved in managing me as well. I bumped

(01:03:36):
into a showcase in a tiny little pub in London
because friends of mine had had written the tracks and everything,
and he said, look, why don't you sing? Why don't
you And I said, now I'm done, really you know,
well why don't you just go out and do it again?
And said, well, you know I haven't done it for years,
and and he said, well, what if I anyway you
got in touch with it. What if I put a
little tour together. You can sing anything you want and

(01:03:58):
just been in front of a feunder people, nothing big.
You don't even have to sing your old songs if
you don't want, just walk out there and sing and
see if you want to do it again. I'm like,
who is this guy? What you know? And it turns
out this guy is an amazing guy, and he promotes
like things from like Coldplay, Adele right the way down
to brand new bands. Right. He just loves it, lives it,

(01:04:19):
it breathes it. So I'm like, what a crazy offer
that if it's just unbelievable. And around the same time,
I also had an offer to go to Japan, and
I'd always turned down all the offers to sing all
my old songs, and I just thought so anyway, So
I did this little tour and I sang Frank Sinatra
but baker at anything I wanted to that. I remember
as a kid, my mom and dad used to play

(01:04:39):
and my dad had a really great voice actually, and
he used to sing. He used to sing the wrong words,
but he used to sing Franks Rats around the house
all the time. So I want to did that with
a little, you know, little brass section, a very small
brass section, three guys, two or three guys, I think actually,
and just you know, just to really stand up base
all the ways of it, tying little venues. We played
running Scots still us to come and do it there

(01:05:00):
because we're doing that kind of thing went up and
down the country, and I absolutely loved and something in
my mind went like a lightbulb just went Okay, so
you can go out and sing. But it doesn't have
to be your b all and end all. It's not.
It's not every part of your life. You can do
it when you want to do it. And I accepted
this offer to go to Japan mainly because our daughter,

(01:05:23):
who was fifteen at the time, and my wife really
wanted to go. Um So we went, and we went
on a really lovely trip and I sang those songs
never Going to Give You Up Together Forever, and a
bunch of others, and again the same light bulb went
on of light. So you go out, you sing them,
you walk off stage, you put a different jacket on,
and you go out for dinner. And that's it. It's

(01:05:45):
not like you go out there there's three D screaming fans,
there's people taking a picture, there's you've got to do
interviews all day the next day, and by the way,
you'll be on a plane at four o'clock going to
another territory to do it all again the next you
know what I mean. It's it's you can pick and choose.
You can have a life in music. There isn't. I'm
not saying I can never attain the success out in

(01:06:06):
the ages, how possibly doing that? But I can enjoy
it a lot more. And that's kind of what I
do and what I've done ever since. Can I ask? So? Okay?
So one, I wanted to know what was the straw
that broke the camel's back as far as you're walking away,
and how did you manage to make a living? If
you remind me asking for those fifteen years? Yeah? Okay,

(01:06:31):
first one. Then I think a lot of things we're
just coming together. I'd had some, we had some we
were like everybody has got a story about a record
they made that never did anything or just didn't see
the light of day, didn't get released, whatever. So I
had a couple of things like that. We did a
record an album away from stock thinking what my first one,

(01:06:52):
and the first single from it I was called Try
for Help. And I was so lucky with that record,
but I also knew, well I might not get to
make many more. I thought I'd love to get a
couple of my favorite drummers on it. Um so we
did some stuff with Jeff Pacall came and played drums.
We didn't actually use those sections in the end because
it turned into something else. Vinnie Calli came and played
drums on that song. Yeah, and I'm sat there in

(01:07:16):
the room going, I don't know what's going on. And
I got to play their drum kits as well, by
the way, and obviously we had some great musicians. Andre
Crouch U is quiet that sang that sang on the record,
and obviously I'm sure to this day, but I think
around at any of that time through the nineties and onwards,
if you wanted a Quire, there were a couple of
cliers to ask, and he was probably at the top

(01:07:38):
of it, and so some of those experiences were amazing.
But anyway, so that record came out. We had the
top ten in America with that song, and the top
ten in the UK and lots of different countries. So
I thought, this is crazy. I've left stock in Waterman,
I've made a record with Vine Calliuti on it and Acquire,
and yet we still had a top ten and I
had long hair as well. I just grew my hair

(01:07:59):
for a bit of it laughing, and I thought, that's it.
We've we've turned that page. I can go and make records.
Quite a long story short. Up to that point, I
think i'd had like and this sounds like sal grapes.
It's not. I was just shocked by it. I just
didn't understand what was going on. The next couple of
singles released didn't really do anything. We didn't get them
anywhere near the charts, and the weird thing was they

(01:08:20):
were more like pop songs than the first one. And
it transpires that basically the head of our c A
in the UK was moved out, a new person came along,
kind of got rid of everybody and started again, and
that was in that transition in the middle of that record.
So so to honest, we still I'm not saying this,
I'm not believe me, I'm not bragging. I'm just trying

(01:08:40):
to give you the facts. Right, We still sold over
a million albums with one single. It just didn't go boom,
if you know what I mean. And we didn't and
we didn't get any more singles at all in any
chart anyway. It just didn't happen. And so it made
me realize and a few people who know what they're
talking about. So, look, that just happens every now again.
You can be in the middle of a record and
if your record company just disintegrates, it doesn't matter good records.

(01:09:04):
And even though you've got a hit with it, and
if the album's kind of out there, it's doing well
and it's could even be Top ten in a couple
of weeks, it's just going to die of death because
there's nothing making it out. And what it sort of
made me realize was that unless your record company really
want this to happen, unless they're really on board, you
know what I mean, you've got no chance. And I've
never experienced that before. And obviously I was still a

(01:09:26):
kid where I was young, you know. So anyway, so
that record kind of ended, so we start to make
how are we gonna Are we gonna make another one
that we know? We? What have you? So? I had
written a song for song. I can say this because
it's years after now, so it's cool. So Madonna was
going to be in a movie called Body of Evidence
with Willem Dafolk. There's two weeks ago. That's not I

(01:09:50):
wanted to watch. I had COVID two weeks ago. So
I wanted to. I wanted to watch all the horrible
films I heard about. I watched watch Based Instinct too.
I didn't even know that. Yes, but we're not basically
instinct to write. So anyway, So somebody who is A

(01:10:11):
and R in the project or what have you had
sort of said, well, look, so the guy I wrote
Cry for Help with a guy called Rob Fisher. He
and I wrote a couple of songs. This song was
called Hopelessly that we wrote. We sent it in to
possibly be in the movie. We got this thing about saying, look,
we absolutely love it. We're going to come to the UK.
We want to be involved in how you record it.
We don't not produce it, but we've got to be there,

(01:10:33):
but we need it done right away because we're really
close and we've just got to get this thing done
to great. I was making exciting that, but is it
something that back on my mind's going why isn't Macdonna's
singing this song? Why isn't she singing her own song?
Why isn't she What's going on here? What they said, No,
she doesn't want to sing any of the songs. They
don't want any They just she wants to act and
that's it. So I'm like, great, that I'll do for me.

(01:10:53):
Madonna's going to be part of you know, this massive thing,
and I'm going to get a song in it, and
let's go. So we do the song. Everyone said, we
love it, it's great, it's perfect, We send it off.
It's all great. So my record label, which is still
as the A b MG at the time, so, right,
we needed to make an album because this film is
coming out in a few months, and so have you

(01:11:14):
got any songs? So I've got a lot of songs,
have been writing, I've been, you know, right, just getting
this trade. So I went back in the studio with
the guy who had made the Less album, with a
guy called Gary Stevenson, who was still a good friend today,
and we just got stuck into making an album. So
we did. So Body of Evidence is coming out and
they've decided they're not going to have any songs in
Body of Evidence. They're not going to do this with

(01:11:37):
a lead song because it doesn't really that's going to
confuse people and whatever. Right, maybe they didn't have Yeah,
maybe they did have a song in the end, I
can't remember, but but they certainly didn't have hours. I
don't think they had any I think they just had
the theme music. They didn't want to confuse Madonna's career
with like this music, so what is it anyway? Whatever?
And maybe that's just the way I'm remembering it. So

(01:11:59):
at this part when I go into the record label,
I've made an album. At this point, most people when
I walk in the building and kind of looking out
the window, hoping not to make eye contact because now
they don't know what to do. Now they don't know
what to do. It's like, is this record any good?
Is it the right record? Should we be doing this?
I'd like to keep my career. So I'm just going
to look out the window when he walks in the building.

(01:12:21):
And at this point, I'm like, you know what, I
think I'm just going to walk away. I think I'm
just gonna say, look, I'm gonna while no one's watching,
and they obviously would, I'm just gonna walk I'm gonna
walk out the side door. And I spoke to my manager,
who spoke to my lawyer. I was doing promotion for
that that record that had this song Hopelessly, which was
gonna be there whatever, And I think we were getting

(01:12:43):
a bit of route, sort of getting a bit of
headway in in in America actually funny enough, and I
was I was going to the airport, was going to
Heathrow to get on a plane to go to New
York to be on a TV show. I forget which
one to sing this song hopelessly, and it was sort
of getting played a little bit, but it wasn't getting
the full do you know what I mean? And something
in me said, I've got a daughter at home who

(01:13:04):
is like, you know, one year older. Things she wants
something like that. I've just do loads of promotion in
Europe and it all felt pointless. I don't know whether
you guys have been there, but it just felt it
felt like, you know, it almost start embarrassing, like sort
of like we should just not be doing this. Really
they don't want to do it. I'm not sure I
want to do it anymore. So I'm going to Heathrow.

(01:13:27):
And I turned around to my manager is still one
of my closest people in my life, and you know,
he's a bit of a surrogate father, and I said,
I think I'm done, and he's like, what do you mean?
I just don't want to go and I don't want
to go, and I don't want to do this. And
I knew what it meant, because I knew that that's it.
You know, you don't you don't not go to New
York to go and do a TV show on the

(01:13:47):
record company. Go. Oh, that's fine, I said, I think
I'm done. So he said, fine, let's call let's call
the lawyer, and we'll just see I feel like you
walk away and forget about it, and we'll shake hands
and we'll do that. And so we turned the car
around and I went home and I tried a bit,
you know, I did obviously, and I knew what it meant.
And I just went home and we had a bit
of a hug, and he drove home and he called

(01:14:09):
my lawyer and be called BMG. And to be fair
to them, they said, yeah, we're okay, but if he
wants to quit, we don't want to do it anymore.
And m and that was it. That's a rarity to one,
that's as good as it gets in the business. Yeah,
because most people will try to force their will. Yeah.

(01:14:31):
But but I think also I've had a very explosive
pop career, you know, one of those kind of like
booms sort of like I've never really I don't think
i'd really come to terms with a lot of it.
I don't think I've not grown up. I've done from
being signing a little production deal twenty one massive single
that you know, on a really big album it's huge
album and around the world and everything and knots and

(01:14:54):
um and I never really I never really I think
got to sort of uh, get totally comfortable. I don't
think I think I was always chasing my tail and
always kind of like I almost felt like I was
always running after a bus. That was just always like
leaving the death or before I got you. And so

(01:15:16):
I didn't I didn't grow up as a human. I've
become a dad, but I don't really felt I didn't
feel like a grown up, you know what the name
so and anyway, I'm gonna sorry very long answers. So
that the next part of the equation is this, that
first album did really, really well. I wrote four songs
on my own on it. The next album did pretty well.
It did about half what the second one did, and
I wrote five or six of them. Um so and

(01:15:40):
even even the cry for Help song that was on
my album called Free. You know, we did a million
something with that record, and I wrote a lot of
those tunes and co produced it and blah blah. So
in other words, I made quite a lot of money
because we sold a lot of you know, that first
album sold over eight million, I think, you know what
I mean. So we sold a lot of records back then,
because if you had a hit a couple of songs
pop song, that very often mean he sold a lot

(01:16:02):
of records, and so I just kind of was comfortable
with that. But I've never I've never owned a fleet
at Ferraris. I've never driven a Rolls Royce into a
swimming pool. You weren't boring, now, control No, I've been
I think again. I owe that back to my upbringing
in sense that I'm from a very working class area.

(01:16:24):
My dad had a little business, so I always knew
there was a tax member. I didn't understand what it
meant as a kid, but I knew he was coming,
and I knew he wanted some money from my dad,
do you know what I mean? So my dad would
be sat at home doing his paperwork, going to be
going right, Well, that's for the tax man. I'm like,
what what I kind of thought at taxed man was
going to come with a bag. Almost mean as a kid,
I thought I thought he was going to knock on
the join give me the money, you know. But I

(01:16:45):
always knew that was there, And so I think every
bit of money that I earned. I think also because
I was so busy for like, certainly the first three
or four years, but I only did it for four
or five years. The first three years of it, I
was so busy. I didn't buy anything, I think, in
buy a house until quite a few you know what
I mean, Because I was always traveling. I was always Yeah.

(01:17:08):
And also I think that whole kind of like MTV cribs,
look at my house lifestyle. Unless you were one of
the absolute greades Elton John, Um, who to what have
you that? You know? Um? Whoever? You didn't you didn't
live like that. I think people just got on with
it and then realized they made some money some years later.
You know what I mean? Tell that to my friends

(01:17:33):
speaking with what was it like? Where? Yeah? I mean,
that guy is amazing in so many different ways. He
got in touch. He cut a long story short. The
first time any sort of connection was never going to
give you up got this award at the bp I Awards,
a Single of the Year, because it was live back then.
It was at the Albert Hole and something just mentioned

(01:17:56):
who who were closing the show and they were playing
live at the albat Hole. So the award for single
is pretty much one of the last awards. So I
was stood on this podium waiting to get the award
with with the audience looking at me but not the
TV audience, and I've got this camera on me and
to me, I'm thinking the camera's on. So I'm just
stood there waiting for someone to stand up and go
and the Single of the Year goes to Rick Astley,

(01:18:17):
but never got right there. I just stood there and
the alcohol is a low looking at me, and I'm like,
but it didn't happen. No one came on the podium
and no one gave me the award, and it just
somebody just went ladies and gentlemen who and they just
steamed into like that. So I just stood there, going
it's going on and and I'm literally still on this
round podium, just in the middle somewhere, and I'm going

(01:18:37):
like and the camera still looking and I'm going, what
do I do do? I walk do I shuffle away?
Do I walk away? Do I look at the who
and do it? Havn't know what to do, and eventually
I just kind of like just sideways, just just kind
of walked out of the picture. Anyway, I wasn't even
upset because I was too in the sort of nonsense

(01:18:57):
of it all to be upset. I was like, I
don't know what's going on. It so much like to
do so I woke up. But believe me, backstage it
all kicked off. My god, there was some like who
has you know, there really was, and my manager was
really angry. I mean he was like fuming, you know
what I mean. And the stock aching workman guys were
going apes ship you know what I mean. It was
really it was a big deal because like they had

(01:19:18):
actually written and produced the song that had done you
know what I mean, the business that here and blah blah.
So anyway, a couple of days later, a trate of
I think it was Crystal Champagne arrived at my manager's
office from John to me saying, I'm really really sorry,
what an awful thing to happen. That's absolutely terrible. All

(01:19:39):
the best, keep on making music. Don't let it get
you down. Do it a really nice letter, and I
was just thinking, like, this is just how amazing is that,
you know what I mean to sort of, But obviously
as time has gone on, I've obviously understood he's had
his moments in life. I'm sure where he's been let down,
and he's been doing what I mean, And I think
he's always he's always done that thing reaching out to

(01:20:00):
younger artists, sort of saying, look, if you ever want
any advice, if you ever want to you know. So
he invited myself out and my life and I went
to dinner with him and a few friends, um, and
he was just chatting about stuff really and just being
a nice dude, you know what I mean, and just
kind of saying, look, if you ever want to talk,
if you ever get you know. And I also think
because obviously needs, especially in the latter you know years,

(01:20:24):
I think he's also been very helpful to people have
been going through major problems, you know, with drugs and
drinking all the rest of it and all kinds of things.
You know. I think that's what his life is about
really now, is about more giving back than it he's taking,
you know what I mean, but anyway, that's another world
to game too. So but on that dinner that night,
he said, look, if you ever want me to come
and play, you know, if you want to come and
play on a record and just just get in touch,

(01:20:46):
you know. And I'm like, and I'm listening to him
say the words, but I'm not really computing it. So
sure enough, shure enough, he did. He came and played,
and he just rolled up, He just rocked up and
just played piano on a crop of songs on that
record that I did when I left. I think he's
just always been great. He made a record a few
years ago when I turned fifty, I made a record
in my garage at home, just just sort of just

(01:21:08):
to kind of say to myself what I could do.
I didn't even have a record deal at the time.
And he we went to see him in Vegas. And
I'm saying this because I want to. I want to
I'm proud of myself, but I also want to say
how great he is in it. In that same sentence,
we went to see him just because we've seen him
a bunch of times and I wanted to see the
show that he does in Vegas, that he was doing

(01:21:29):
the Red He just sat there and he knows him
in the audience kind of thing, and he sat there
and he just says to the audiences, by the way,
lady and gentlemen, there's a young man in the audience tonight.
Not when I was younger, but there's a guy in
the audience tonight. He said, if you're going to buy
a record, if you're going to buy a record the
next few weeks or next months by Rick Aster his restaurant,
by Rick As. His record is full fifty. It's an
absolutely fantastic repord. Like what's going on? You know, It's

(01:21:51):
like and he's always He's always done things like that.
I mean, for loads of ice to think, and you know,
he's always he's still keen on working with the artists
and doing due and all the rest of it. And
so I just think he's one of those people that
I know some people around him. I'm really good friends
with David Johnson, who is is empty and his guitar
player for for all the years that he's been going.

(01:22:11):
Really so I've been to loads of his gigs and
you know, been around some of the stories and some
backgrounds on on the Lion King some of those songs
and stuff like because I was just there and he
just someone says that get in there to go, don't sing,
you know, and stuff, and I just think he's one
of those people who's still in love with music. He's
still back in the days of CDs and what have you.

(01:22:32):
He would go into stores, I'm sure you've heard the
stories legend go in there and come out with two
great big bags of CDs because he still wanted to
be like, what's going on? I should know what's going on?
And I want to hear that thing? You know what?
What is it? So now he's the real deal. He
he was one of the first people, the very first
people to when I when I won the BEFT and
and I asked her. He was one of the first

(01:22:54):
people to cold called me and congratulate me. And he's
like that, wait before we pub I always wanted to know,
are you sat at the level of adoration that you're
getting for like these uh cover songs that you do
in in your show now And speaking of Network, did
you resist the temptation to do a Zeppelin song at

(01:23:16):
Network when you did it? Or you know it wasn't
that kind of enough to be honest. I think it
was just because it was big enough to get with gardens,
private gardens or whatever you want to call them. Whatever.
Uh No, it's funny. I've never really got the lead out,
to be honest, I'm not. I've got friends who are
showing to zactly it's freaky and obviously John Bondom that's

(01:23:36):
another story, right right, just but I think it's never
really I'm not saying I'm not a fan, and I'm
not I don't appreciate exactly, but it's I'm if I
ever go well, and I do love a lot of rockies,
like I still play drums in a midlife crisis, punk
rock covers band um from phone and what happen? We

(01:23:56):
go from like um uh more a C d C
to be honest and then right, okay more sort of
punky rock sort of things. Um I just the thing is,
AND's how I started, how most people start. You start
by covering other people's songs. And there's a real joy
in doing it. There's a real um, Well, you look

(01:24:19):
like you're having the time of your life when you're
doing it. Yeah, I do. I love it And every time,
for instance, we toured in the UK in October or
into November, and we postponed that to her a couple
of times, and so I went into rehearsals and they
know what's coming, my band and crew and everything. They
know I'm going to walk in on the last day
because I don't like to give people much warning and say, right,

(01:24:40):
we're doing We're gonna do Watermelon Strugger by Harry Styles
and everyone's like, right, fine, walky how and it just
gotta play it. But the other reason I kind of
like to do that is because if we can't just
shuffle into it and just play it and make it work,
we shouldn't be doing it unless it just sort of
happens instantly. So we've we've done low to cover and
I just I love doing it. I still absolutely love it,

(01:25:02):
and I think, to be honest, there's an element about
doing other people's songs, but there's a there's a tension
relief because it's like you're just doing a cover, do you
you know what I mean. It's not it's not like
you're trying to represent for the audience something they've paid
to come and watch. They've sort of gone right. I
bought that first album thirty or the years ago. I

(01:25:24):
wanted to do never going to give you up. I
wanted to sound like the record. I wanted to you
know what I mean. I feel like I feel like
older than that, you know what I mean. And that's
not in a negative. I want to give them that.
But I think when you do covers you can just
sort of say it don't really matter. I don't mean
that with any disrespect to the artists at all. I
just mean it's just having fun, you know. I think
all artists like covering other people's songs. It's just, you know,

(01:25:46):
it's just just yeah. So my last question is who
explained to you what Rick Rowing was. I have one
of my closest friends, a guy called and Frampton, and
he is and his brother, Actually Daniel has mixed and
engineered last couple of albums for me and stuff, but

(01:26:08):
Andrew is a producer and writer and lots of other things. Um.
He I was on holiday in Italy and he literally
ripped on me in an email. So this is years ago, obviously,
and I'm like, so I just emailed him back and
going Okay, whatever whatever send and then so he did
it again and I'm like, replayer, then answer to him,

(01:26:29):
saying what are you doing? You know what I mean,
We've known each other years, right, what are you actually doing? What?
You know? Because I didn't grasp what it was at all.
And it's also this is the early days of YouTube.
It's the early days of someone getting an email with
a video link in it that I mean, I know
that's like just so making like a granddad, but I
mean it was early that that was quite a novel thing.

(01:26:50):
So in the end, we're on We're on holiday in Italy,
we're on the Mouthy Coast. I remember where I wasn't everything.
I would telling everything. So I get on the phone
to him, right Andrew, what the hell are you doing? Right?
What are you doing? Kind of thing? And he's laughing
and he's like, so you don't know what a rip
role is. I'm like, no, I don't even know what
the term the language that nothing. So he kind of

(01:27:12):
explained it to me, and even then I still sort
of thought, now, this is just in joking, this is
just him doing this and a couple of the friends
that he's going to get to email me and do whatever.
And I had no idea that it was actually this
little bubble on the Internet that people were you know,
so to be honest, I give credit to my daughter
for mostly putting me right about it. Um. I've been

(01:27:36):
nominated for an MTV award in whenever, it was fifteen
years ago, something to do with best Live Act or
Best Act or that's something which all they were doing.
They were jumping on the rip roll thing and they
were having a bit of fun. They're having a bit
of fun, possibly at my expense, and that's whatever. But
it was going to be in Liverpool, and I knew

(01:27:56):
that Sir Paul McCartney was going to be getting a
Lifetime Achievement or or from Bono in Liverpool, right, And
I'm like, am I going to go to that? No?
I am not right. I wasn't even really going to
go anyway. But I thought, I'm definitely not going there.
If it would have been in Leipzig or Hamburg or Brussels,
I might have gone to that, right, Ain't going to
Liverpool with Sir Paul McCartney and bad that ain't at me? Right?

(01:28:19):
And my daughter said, she said, look, there's no way
you're going to that. That's just like some And I said, no,
you're right, you know, And she was like fifteen sixteen
whatever she was. He said, you do realize it's got
nothing to do with you. And I went and I
was actually, I was stunned. Actually, I'm right, what do
you mean he's got nothing to it? It It actually says

(01:28:40):
Rick Roll, I'm the Rick in the rig Roll, it's
the video. I'm in the video. And said, yeah, it's
got nothing to do with you. And it was like
really wise words from a young young woman, young girl,
because she was absolutely right. It's it's got everything to
do with me and nothing to do with me. It's
at the same time. And it's probably the best bit

(01:29:02):
of advice that I ever had about it, all of it,
and that is just saying it's over there and it's
doing whatever it is, and it's a thing, and it's
well out of you, and it can be fun and
you can even enjoy the fun and and get involved
in it sometimes, but it isn't it's a thing and
it's a whatever. Just it's there, whatever it is. And
and that's because she was of the generation to understand

(01:29:22):
the Internet way more than I was. So, you know,
even though I had hadn't explained by one of my
best friends who was my age, her explanation of it
in a real way was kind of a lot more
useful to me. If you know what I mean, what's
your most famous rick roll turned down that you've done,
Like I'm not doing it well? I get I get
really commercial ones for money, basically with products and things

(01:29:45):
and always to it, and I don't. I'll do ones
that I think they're okay and I think they're defined
and they're not, you know, in any way, and also
because if they have a bit of the sense of
humor about it, if you know what I mean, I've
just done, say, just a few months ago, I did
one for a video game for Into the Galaxy, and
I loved that movie, the first movie when it came out,
Absolutely loved it. And the way they use music, I

(01:30:07):
think it's such a blessing because kids know those songs,
even the ones from the seventies, eighties, whatever, They know
those songs. Like we were talking at the very beginning,
all three of us talking at the beginning about how
we listen to music, have we come across it and stuff.
So I thought that was a really cool thing to do.
When the guys who made the video game are really great.
So I'm more than happy to be invited to do that,

(01:30:27):
but there's just times when I just look at it,
I go now, I just don't feel that it's just.
And I also think it's a it's a really difficult
thing to navigate. I think how far to just do
something for money. But don't get me wrong, my wife
and I my wife manages me, and we have we

(01:30:48):
have a criteria of things that need answering. The first
one that usually comes up is where is it? Because
if somebody says it's in Santiago and Chili, then we're
almost on the plane, right And I don't love flying,
but we're almost on the plane because we have great
promoters down there. We've got some great wine down there.
We love it down there. And if someone says to you,
you know someone like that, or you know anywhere in

(01:31:10):
South America that's like what you know, Japan have been
to quite a few times one way or in other
different places. There's lots of places in the world. Coming
back to America and getting to go to towns and
cities in such a way like this, were the guys
that everything has been such a treat, really not something
I can do on my own in any way, shape
or form. So you know. But but the truth of

(01:31:30):
it is, it's like where is it. It's also kind
of yes, there's money involved, usually as cost there is.
But what we also look at is we sometimes say, well,
you know what, we'll do that because that basically means
we can do this where we're not going to make
any money, but I just really want to do it.
By the time we've flown abandon the crew there, it's
probably good to customy money, but I really want to

(01:31:52):
do it. I really want to do it, and that
pays for it. And I'm not afraid or embarrassed to
talk about that because at the end of the day,
music is a business and it has to kind of
balance out at some point, and you pick and choose
and you do the ones you know. So so I
think I've just always used my head in terms of
thinking about the rip roll thing, and I'm never going
to give you up and saying look, yeah, I don't

(01:32:14):
want to bleed it dry, because I don't. But sometimes
there's opportunities that come along and sometimes they just happen.
Sometimes they just happen in front of me, and it's
like I'm getting on the stage and I'm singing that
song right now, because it's it's just been, it's just happen.
It's tricky, and like you said, there's a lot of
artists who want to run a million miles from their biggest,
oldest song, and I kind of go the other way.

(01:32:37):
I sort of embrace it, and it's it's it's like
an old jacket and it's kept me warm for thirty
odd years, do you know what I mean? So I
just I have that kind of like comfortable love for it.
I think, well that that's inspirational because I'm a human
being that is still slowly, you know, highly uncomfortable when

(01:33:00):
nice gestures happen or people show you love or that
sort of thing. Like I would have probably been the
opposite and run away from it. But you know, I'm I'm, I'm.
It's it's really uh inspiring to see someone in a
healthy way just embrace embrace their their work and and
really enjoy it and not be serious, but not to

(01:33:21):
take themselves that seriously because you know, I've run across
many an artist that does nothing but try to sabotage
a good thing. And I understand it. I do understand it,
don't get me wrong. I do, And like I say
that me having that fifteen years or more not doing
it is what I think allows me to be comfortable
about it now because I'm not it anymore and I'm

(01:33:43):
not wrapped up in it. And don't get me wrong,
I want to represent it when I sing it live,
you know, when I'm out with new kids doing this,
or whether I'm doing my own shows, whatever it is,
I want to go out and sing that song the
best I possibly can. And I want anybody who remembers
it and have some love for it to have that
emotion with me and vice versa, and share it a
bit and say, yeah, I was there, I bought the

(01:34:04):
T shirt. I remember, you know, because that because I
I go to whether it's Sup Paul McCartney in fort
Worth the other week, or whether it's somebody who's nowhere
near his level of greatness or whatever, whether it's somebody
just starting out or what have you. If I've got
a connection with them because I, you know, love that record,

(01:34:25):
then I want to feel that in the room. And
if I feel it up and doing it just painting
by numbers up there, going looking at the watch good
or be off the stage of ten minutes, I'm like
I'd rather walk out. I don't want to know. Do
you know what I mean? It's we've still got to
respect it. I think, what however old the song is,
and even if it's become an internet meme, you still

(01:34:45):
have to respect what the true emotion of it when
when somebody heard it the first time. I appreciate you for,
you know, taking the time out with us and and
and sharing your journey and your story. And you know,
whether whether on the radio or ted Lasso or the internet,
you know the song is gonna be here forever, man,
and I appreciate you for sharing this with us. And

(01:35:08):
this is uh Rick Astley on Quest Love Supreme won't
be Apple, Fontigelo, Sugar, Steve, Unpaid, Bill and myself And yeah,
thank you guys, and we'll see you on the next
proground of course. Love Supreme all right, y'all. Quesse. Love

(01:35:29):
Supreme is a production of my Heart Radio. For more
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