November 15, 2025 • 48 mins
SEGMENT 1: Frank Gaffney is by Capt. James Fanell Pt. 1
SEGMENT 2: Frank Gaffney is by Capt. James Fanell Pt. 2
SEGMENT 3: Frank Gaffney is by Capt. James Fanell Pt. 3
SEGMENT 4: Frank Gaffney is by Capt. James Fanell Pt. 4
SEGMENT 5: Frank Gaffney is by Capt. James Fanell Pt. 5
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:25):
Welcome to Securing America with me Frank Affney, the program
that's a kind of owner's manual for protecting the country
we love against all enemies foreign and domestic, to the
glory of God at his kingdom. We're going to talk
in this hour with one of our favorite guests, a
man of extraordinary experience and acumen, about what he calls
(00:47):
rightly the main thing that would be the Chinese Communist
Party and the threat that it represents to us. Before
we get into that in the course of this full hour,
I want to just set the stage well with a
different peace of the threat environment, with some comments about
what happened a decade ago this very time, In fact,
(01:11):
ten years ago today, jihadis launched coordinated and murderous attacks
against civilians across Paris. The experience deeply traumatized France, but
will be commemorated by a country that has, if anything,
become over the past decade even more vulnerable to such
Muslim terrorism. So unfortunately is ours. That's because in the
(01:33):
intervening years, both France and America have allowed in large
numbers of young men who practice the supremacist Islamic doctrine
known as Sharia, it obliges them to use violence to
impose Muslim rule worldwide. In France, civil war between such
immigrants and the native population seems increasingly inevitable. And here,
(01:58):
following Sharia adherent Zoron Mundani's election in New York, emboldened
Islamists are insisting that their rule must replace our constitutional republic.
Failing to learn and respond appropriately to the lessons of
past jihadism is an invitation to much more of it. Well,
(02:21):
those are my thoughts for more than following at exit
Frank Effney, and of course at us Future dot org,
the website of our Institute for the American Future. Support
us there place makes this program possible. We're going to
turn to that aforementioned guest, Captain James Finnell, United States
Navy Men, who, though he retired number of years ago,
(02:44):
made his mark while he was in the service and
continues to do so as an analyst and commentator and
author both of periodical columns as well as book length
treatments of as I say the main thing what the
threat posed by the Chinese Communist Party represents to us
(03:05):
in a book he co authored with doctor Bradley Thayer
entitled embracing communist China. He talked about what our decades
long embrace of the CCP has translated into both in
terms of their capabilities military and otherwise to wage war
(03:25):
against our country, and the extent to which they have
successfully done. So, Captain Fanel, welcome aboard. We are so
glad to have you, and thank you for giving us
a full hour of your very very limited time. We
so appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Well. Thanks, Frank, It's great to be with you as always.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Now you live on the continent of Europe, not too
far from France, and so before we get into the
main thing, I might just invite you to comment on
concerns that I think you have about what's happening not
just in France, but really through Europe, from Britain, I guess,
to the Polish border, maybe Hungary. What are your thoughts there?
Speaker 3 (04:05):
Yeah, Frank, I retired from the US Navy in twenty
fifteen and came here. My wife is Swiss and we
came here to central Europe. And when we came it
was right as the German government was opening up the floodgates,
if you will, into Germany and elsewhere across Europe. From
(04:27):
all these what they call refugees, and they were visible
to me right across the street, just fifty seventy five
yards away, in the old post office that used to
be here. And then in that year of twenty fifteen,
in the fall, my wife and I did go to Paris,
and we happened to be at the same locations where
(04:48):
those attacks occurred, so just a couple of weeks or
a week or so before it happened, and then we
were there a little bit later the next year. It's
it's just gotten worse, progressively worse over the decade, and
the countries of Europe are no longer the countries that
(05:09):
people in America have in their minds eye in terms
of sitting out in the cafes and enjoying, you know,
a coffee or a drink, or going up into the
mountains and thinking things, are you know, this kind of idiot,
idyllic lifestyle.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
It's really massively changed.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
And yes, there are some people here that legitimately are
trying to get out of really bad places, but there's
been really to almost none, no vetting process, and so
you're just seeing these wave after wave after wave for
a decade of people coming across and the culture is changing,
(05:49):
and it is very alarming. And you know, I'm an
American and I keep thinking about at some point, I
feel like the movie Winds of War.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
It's different, it's not.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
Nineteen thirties in Germany, but it's the same feeling that
something's going to break. And I'm very worried that the
same kind of mentality has overcome the United States, especially
during the Biden years, that we didn't pay attention to history.
And you know, whether we like it or not, whether
it was an endless war that we shouldn't have done, the.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Fact of the matter is the United States of America
fought long and hard and killed lots of people in
the Middle East.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
And for whatever you know, right or wrong reason, there's
a lot of people that have it out for us
and don't like us. And memories are long, and so
people should not ignore that history and should not rest
and think, oh, we're always going to be safe because
we've got the Pacific and Atlantic oceans protecting us.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
They did as long as we kept our border secure.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
And we did not during those Biden years massively. And Jim,
I guess I just would underscore what you've said about
learning the lessons of history. One of the lessons of
history talk about endless wars is that these Jihadis, for
at least fourteen hundred years since Mohammed's time, have been
(07:16):
at war with the rest of the planet and using
violence jihad as they call it, to conquer the rest
of the world. And it starts off in times when
they're not powerful enough to do it with force through
more stealthy means, including now in this country through elections.
(07:37):
And I am very much of your mind, sir, that
what we're seeing in Europe is very much what's in
store for the United States if we do not recognize
that when these people talk about and they have been
doing so and much much more aggressively since Zoramondani election,
(08:01):
that Islam will rule America, that Sharia will be the
law of our land as well. They're deadly serious about it,
and we ignore it at our peril. Jim, let me
pivot now to what is your principal focus and area
of great expertise, communists China. It should be noted that
(08:23):
the Chinese communists are working closely with the various Islamic supremacists,
even though they've got large numbers of Muslims incarcerated in
their whole country, but in the Beltum Road initiative and
in the Bricks movement so called Brazil, Russia, India, China,
(08:45):
South Africa grouping now expanded, there are quite a number
of those folks who seem willing to make common cause
with the Chinese communists at our expense, possibly even leading
to our destruction.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
Is that a fair comment, sir, Yeah, Frank, I think
that's very accurate. That China has been working again over
this past decade plus since G came to power, especially
but it predates him in terms of their strategic intentions,
but especially under G, they have really ramped up and
(09:21):
had a concerted campaign to upend the international order in
the post World War two environment that Americans fought and
died for, and Russians did and others did.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
But the fact of the matter is we were the victors.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
In World War two and the and the Allies that
we had with us, and we have not tended our
birthright and it's falling apart.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
We're going to pick up on that very point on
the other side of a very short break. Stay tuned
for much more with Captain James Finnel the United States
Navy retired. We're back, and so is Captain James Fanel,
(10:18):
United States Navy, retired. The author, a co author with
Bradley Fair of Embracing Communist China America's Greatest Strategic Failure,
and also a steady stream of superb comments, commentaries I
should say, and analyzes often at American Greatness. Captain, you
(10:39):
were just teeing up, as I hoped you would, the
challenge that the Chinese Communists now represent to well, not
just our country, but to the post World War two
world order that we brought about through our victory in
that horrific conflict. I did want to just go through
(11:02):
a couple of places where this is in evidence and
get your reaction to some recent developments. Starting in Japan.
We saw the consul general to I think it's Osaka
from China making the most outrageous statement about the Japanese,
(11:23):
the new Japanese Prime minister the other day, and I
wanted to get your take on what that's about and
the response us far from well, not only the Japanese
government Puro.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Yeah, Frank, I'm glad you characterized it that way.
Speaker 3 (11:37):
Starting off with the outrageous statements from this Chinese diplomat
we've heard of the wolf warrior diplomat someone around that
we know are calling them dog diplomats, very rude, threatening
statement about the Prime Minister of Japan, essentially saying, oh,
you know, we should cut your head off if you
stick your neck out into our business. But the Prime
(12:00):
Minister of Japan simply questioned and said, is hey, if
China were to ever invade Taiwan, that would have a
national security implication for Japan and we would have to
you know, she didn't say anything else, you just said
it would be a survival event for us that we'd
have to consider, yeah, existential, and we'd have to pay
(12:22):
attention to it.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
And the Chinese.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
Then this diplomat in Osaka came out and made these statements,
and since then the Chinese government has doubled down, tripled down,
and even today in the Global Times said if you
ever Japan get involved and use your military in response
to anything that happens in Taiwan, then that globes off
(12:46):
essentially and you will suffer the consequences and you'll have
crossed our redline. So they're not backing down, they're not
acknowledging what their diplomat said was undiplomatic, and I'm still
questioning why diplomat still in Japan. That's up to the
Japanese politics. But we have some colleagues and people that
are recommending that this person B P and G made
(13:09):
persona on Grada and kicked out of Japan. I think
it should have happened already this week. Should have happened
early in the week, and the United States hasn't really
said much about it. To my my chagrin, I think
we should have come out and been more clear to say, hey,
this is not acceptable language in the diplomatic arena and
(13:32):
we're not going to put up with this from bullies
in China.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Yeah, Jim, and you know you've you've been around diplomats
long enough to know that it's not just that these
were ill chosen words. They were clearly approved by Beijing.
They're clearly being supported by Beijing, and they are acceptable
because of what they are signaling, isn't it. It's not
just again the rhetoric. It's what they're signaling is the
(13:57):
growing appetite I guess or war with not just US
but Japan as well.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
Yeah, it's a test the Chinese Communist Party does this
with every new American president. They do an event, they
do something to test them and to test their resolve.
And this is clearly a test for Prime Minister Takeichi.
And there's a It has an implication for America. She's
a treaty ally, Japan's a treaty ally. And if our
(14:25):
treaty ally gets browbeaten in the first month or two
in office by the Chinese Communist Party, that makes it
much harder for us to deter China from doing any
other kind of bad activity.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Yeah, Jim, let me, let me pivot from East Asia,
and we could talk more about South China, see the Philippines, Australia.
Maybe we've come back to those if we have time.
But to our own hemisphere. The Chinese are evidently now
inserting themselves increasingly in Venezuela, where as you know, we
(15:02):
have large now naval elements deployed offshore, shooting in some
cases vessels coming out of Venezuela headed north reportedly with
drugs on them. What do you make of what the
Chinese have already done in our own hemisphere, but specifically
(15:25):
what seems now to be upping the Eddy and Venezuela.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
Well, I think we have largely ignored Latin America until
this administration the second term, and now we're starting to
peel the youngon back and starting to see some of
the corruption and the and the infiltration by China, Russia,
other players and so Iran as well. And so I
(15:51):
think what we need to recognize now is that China
has been laying the seeds down there, whether it's Panama
or sending their hospital ship through the Caribbean as they've
done several times, or you know, their diplomatic negotiations to
establish uh you know, sale of oil from Venezuela to
to China. All of this UH is alliance building between
(16:16):
this uh you know nexus of Russia, China, UH, Iran
in North Korea, and so we have to be very
concerned about that. And I think President Trump and his
team have been very clear we're under attack from narco terrorists,
and those narco terrorists are being supported UH through their
(16:36):
own greed and infrastructure that they have. Is is narco terrorists,
but they're also being backed by the national UH, support
from China, from Russia, from Iran and in North Korea
and other other terrorists type organizations that go to Venezuela
for training. So I think it's it's it's clear what
(17:00):
we need to do. And I know there's a lot
of angst here in Europe about sending the gerald Ford
Carrier strike Group down to this area. But my answer
to my European colleagues is one, the gerald Ford spent
three months or so out there already in the med
you know, providing support. You all have several carriers from
(17:24):
the Royal Navy, the French Navy, the Italian Navy, the
Spanish Navy. You have your own capability, so maybe you
can patrol your own waters for a while and let
us deal with this very serious threat to our homeland.
And that doesn't mean we ignore Europe, it doesn't mean
we ignore Asia, but it means that you can't deal
(17:47):
with those other external threats until you have a secure
southern border and you don't have people sending, as the
President said, sending drugs into the country to kill Americans,
and we know that they've killed hundreds of thousands of
them Americans with Chinese laced opioids, invent and all and
other things of that nature. So it's an existential threat
(18:07):
to us. It's killed hundreds of thousands of Americans, and
we need to put a stop to it, and we
need to send a signal back to Beijing and back
to Moscow and Tablan. Hey, don't even think about it.
It is a Monroe doctrine. Don't even think.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
About it, Jim.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
It's been said on this program. I think authoritatively that
the people running them as well at this point, are
really the greatest drug cartel in the world. They're Soles Group.
I think it's called it's now, you know, sort of
(18:45):
masquerading as the government of Venezuela. But it's all about
drug trafficking. So you're right, it's right at the heart
of this threat to us. Jim, very quickly, you mentioned
Iran a couple of times. I understand that the Chinese
are actively helping rebuild the Onion's military power after it
was substantially degraded by the Israelis. What can you say
(19:05):
about that in forty five seconds?
Speaker 3 (19:08):
Yeah, Frank, Obviously, Israel and the United States in that
twelve day war from Israel's especially put a big hurt
on Iran's, especially their air defense capabilities. Our attacks on
the nuclear facilities set them back years, and so we
shouldn't be surprised that Beijing is now warming their way
(19:28):
in to try to help them reconstitute their defensive capabilities
and their offensive capabilities.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
And we should be watching that and.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
Go ahead and maybe not be surprised, but we should
be taking note of it and recognizing that this has
yet another dimension of their unrestricted warfare against our country
and our vital interests. Jim, We're going to come back
and talk more about all of that on the other
side of a short break. I hope you'll stay tuned,
folks for more with Captain James Finel. We're back, so
(20:18):
is one of our favorite guests, Captain James Fanel, United
States Navy retired, a man of extraordinary accomplishment in uniform,
but one who has thankfully continued to devote himself to
public service in an informal capacity as one of the
analysts and commentators and organizers associated not least with our
(20:43):
committee on the Present Danger of China, for which we
are very grateful. Captain, we were talking about some of
the places that the Chinese have been operating around the
world at our expense, clearly part of the sort of
multi front capability that they've been anxious to have against
(21:05):
this country and the free world more generally, a place
we just sort of alluded to there a moment ago
that I would like to just use as a segue
to another theater in which the Chinese are operating, namely
here you circulated in your Red Storm Risen group a
(21:28):
very important news item about I believe it was the
Chief of Intelligence for Australia warning his countrymen that the
Chinese have been preparing for and actually engaged in attacks
on Australia's critical infrastructure through two operations, one known as
(21:55):
Salt Typhoon and another as Vault Typhoon. In passing he
sort of acknowledged that those attacks are also aimed at
our critical infrastructure here as well. Talk a little bit
about what that kind of behavior represents, sir, and its
(22:15):
implications especially inside America.
Speaker 3 (22:19):
Yeah, the OSIO Intelligence chief, I think his name is Burgess.
His comments last week about the Chinese infiltration, especially in
the cyber arena, into their government is remarkable given that
they have a labor government that's in charge, and their
Prime minister has been trying to you know, restart engagement
(22:43):
with the PRC for economic reasons, and China has been.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Trevor Laden says he's a full on communist for what
that's right.
Speaker 3 (22:51):
And they're ambassador to the United States is a friend
of China's as well, Kevin Rudd. So to have the
OSSIO chief Mountain make this statement, uh, it's really Uh.
I think people need to stick and you have pay
attention to what's being said. And the references to salt
typhoon and volt typhoon were then re reiterated by our
(23:15):
own FBI and SISA, this uh Cyber Security and Infrastructure
Security Agency that's a US government agency. So FBI sister
came out this week and said, oh, by the way, yeah,
this is happening, and we're being attacked by the Chinese.
Now they deny it, but these are the same people
that deny that they were sending fentanyl to the United
(23:36):
States and all the whole host of things.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
So I think, well, and have now promised Jim that
they're going to help us curb the flow effect. Yeah
that was know how many times they've promised that.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
Yeah, they're gonna they're going to restrict They said when
it comes to precursor chemicals, they're going to now have
a review process and they're not going to allow those
chemicals to go to the United States and other countries
and your and that this is after eight years of
promising the first Trump administration and the Biden administration, even
(24:09):
the Obama administration prominence promising America that they were not
allowing that to come out, and now all of a sudden,
they've come up with this new scheme, so.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
That there they lie at every turn.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
And the cyber attacks are very important because it's it's
critical infrastructure, but it's people in America should be very
concerned because it can be your own bank account, your
own your own mortgage, your own savings account, your own
investments in the stockice power.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Right, So it's a very real threat.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
And we we have you know, we have cyber agencies
in cyber command and things in America, but we need
to be the people that I talked to say, we're
being out matched and we're being outgunned because they have
so many people and they're focused on this. And so
the warnings from the AUSIO chief and our own government
should cause people to say, what are we doing to
(25:03):
harden our infrastructure and make sure that China's Chinese cyber
actors can't get inside our lifelines, and one of the
ways to do that is to review who were letting
into the country, because it's a lot easier to do
cyber activity once you're already here in the United States
and you're in our networks physically, as opposed to having
(25:24):
to have it come across and packets across cables on
the sea or through space.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
And so there's a.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
Lot of reasons why we should be asking ourselves who's
coming here from the People's Republic of China and what
are they doing and where are they at.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
Speaking with Jim, I understand that President Trump has indicated
that he is still open to the idea of having
six hundred thousand Chinese students in our country. Are you
hearing that, Sir?
Speaker 3 (25:55):
I saw the interview with Laura Ingram, and my only
statement is I'm a strong support of the president. We've
talked about this in previous episodes, and he knows what
he's doing. But sometimes it's worth for the American people
to stand up and say, hey, mister President, we have
great concern about this, and we don't think he should
(26:17):
do it, and we'd ask you to reconsider that. So
that's what I would say to him. He may have
another plan. He may have another reason for this. He
may have another deal working, or he's getting something from
g in the short term so that we can get
off of being under the threat of rare earth elements
or pharmaceuticals or some other thing that China has been
(26:38):
telling him behind the scenes that they're going to do,
and that you know, he doesn't want to push them
over the edge right at this time. So I don't
I'm not privy to those things, but if all things
are equal, I'd say get get him out.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
Yeah, I'm starting with the three hundred plus or so
that we've thousand that is that we already have here,
let alone adding you know twice that number. Jim, let
me just ask you one other element, speaking of, you know,
people that we don't want here, there are some number
of Chinese soldiers evidently that came across that open border
(27:16):
we talked about earlier in connection with the jihadis do
you have any particular number that you think is accurate
based on official estimates. I've heard them ranging from you know,
ten thousand to two hundred thousand. I'd be interested in
(27:37):
you're a better guess on the number. But more to
the point, Jim, What, given what you've just said about
the unrestricted warfare against us here at home and the
various ways in which it's easier to do it if
you're here, whether it's cyber or physical attacks or what
have you, how serious a problem does that represent, even
(27:59):
if it's just ten thousand Let's say.
Speaker 3 (28:02):
Well, I mean, I think the State somebody's made the
statement already it only took a dozen people to take
down the Twin Towers, So I think yeah, I mean,
so it doesn't take that many people to really create
severe havoc and to have a dramatic impact on America
American citizens and their safety, whether it's attacking or disrupting
(28:25):
a nuclear power plant or you know, having something happen
in a major sporting event or some kind of event
that impacts rail or commercial trucking, all kinds of things
that they could do to create have it. One of
the things that's got my attention right now is this
reporting that's come out this week that came out in
(28:46):
the Daily Caller and then came from State Armor Michael
Loodi or Luky that was reporting on this presence of
a Chinese a trailer park that's off of white Men
Airport Base in Missouri on the end of the runway.
That's a trailer park that's owned by the Chinese, and
(29:06):
it has some very serious implications because those are very important.
That's a very important military base for our national security
and the air portion of our nuclear triad or bomber force.
We have other installations that are, you know, near Chinese.
There's maps out there, people have done some of the homework,
(29:28):
detailed work that shows Chinese owners of property near US
military installations.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
I'm not sure why that is not being dramatic.
Speaker 3 (29:38):
That should be at the top of the list of
things that our governments looking into and verifying that we're
not part of the Chinese Communist Party.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Not everybody that comes from China.
Speaker 3 (29:50):
Is a hardcore communist, but we don't have that kind
of a surety of who these people are, just like
we don't have exact numbers of how many PLA soldiers
came across the southern border during the Biden years. Why not,
Why aren't we getting that information and what are we
doing to follow up on that?
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Yeah, and Jim, as you know, even if they're not
hardcore communists as you put it, they're all subject to
Chinese law which requires them to do the bidding of
the CCP if called upon to do so.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
No, right, I would guess.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
I would say there's probably some people that have come
here that have denounced the PRC and say I'm never
going back, and I have no association with them.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
I mean, I think there are people like that.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
But the ones that you're talking about that come here
that say they're going back, they are under direct manipulation
and control of the People's Republic of China, whether it's
on them personally or their families back at home.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Well, and that's the key point. Even if you don't
think you're going back, if you do have family there,
you know they've had these overseas Police Service centers as
they call them, inside this country, and the service they
provide apparently is connecting people who are here and of
interest to them to family members who are seemingly in
(31:10):
custody and maybe about to have a very bad time
of it.
Speaker 4 (31:13):
That's the kind of extortion that I think we can associate,
obviously with the Chinese communists, and to our great detriment,
perhaps if such individuals are weaponized against us, Jim, we have.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
To take another break when we come back. I want
to visit with you a little bit about that something
that's being called a new Cold war involving artificial intelligence,
what that's likely to translate into, and if it is
such a cold war, what are we going to do
to prevail in it, and what might be costs associated
(31:50):
with doing some be that and much more with Captain
James Fanel in this full hour conversation.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
Were back.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
We're back, So is Captain James Fannel, United States Navy, retired,
a career naval intelligence officer who served with great distinction
in uniform and continues to serve our country, albeit from
a forward deployed position, to try to assure that we
are clear about the threat we face from the Chinese
(32:39):
Communist Party. It's military that people's liberation army, and more generally,
it's economic, political, diplomatic, and other unrestricted warfare capabilities. And
Jim I was just teeing up before the break that
we are being told that a petition between the United
(33:01):
States and China that has evolved in recent well months
or certainly a year or two, amounts to a new
Cold war between the two countries. One that is a
very high stakes, perhaps at least as high, if not
more than the one that we had with the Soviet Union,
And which are nuclear forces competed for strategic advantage. What
(33:26):
are your thoughts about what's going on in this competition
with China and does it rise do you think to
that level of a Cold war or will it?
Speaker 2 (33:38):
Well, Frank, this issue is dominating the news in terms.
Speaker 3 (33:45):
Of The Wall Street Journal just had a piece three
days ago talking about this. The President talks about the
need to have the latest and greatest chips and prohibiting
China from getting that same kind of technology. He's keeping
the tech bros, if you will, the tech giants Navidia's
CEO Jensen Wong close inside the Trump orbit to maintain
(34:13):
are what appears at this point to be our technological
advantage in generative artificial intelligence over the People's Republic of China.
But as the Wall Street Journal reported, you know, China
has a kind of a history of doing that. They
let the United States spend the billions to get the technology,
and then they steal it, and then they adapt it
(34:36):
and mass produce it, like we saw with this electromagnetic
aircraft launch system on board their newest commissioned aircraft carried
the Fujian so they have his.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
Tech talking so many other examples.
Speaker 3 (34:51):
Right, So the question is right now is where is
China in this race with us? How important is it
or is this you know, we kind of a decade
ago had a similar kind of concern about cyber in
cyber and the web and you know, things of that nature,
and now we're talking about AI. It's generating trillions of
(35:14):
dollars in potential value in the video's over five trillion,
I think, I mean, so's it's it's really remarkable. It's
outpacing the cyber investments that were made in the late
two thousand or late you know, the ninety eight ninety
nine Silicon Valley tech startups, and then the money that
(35:39):
went into that.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
It's outpaced what Tesla did.
Speaker 3 (35:42):
And in terms of electric vehicles, this AI investment is
really big.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
So we need to be careful of it.
Speaker 3 (35:49):
Not just from the technological standpoint, but we also have
to make sure that we're not investing our money, in
America's money into something that could all be a house
of cards as well. So there's a lot of promise
there that the AI is going to be involved with
everything that we do We're seeing these ads now for
robots that are going to come and live with you
(36:11):
and help you and assist you. So there's a lot
of aspiration there. I'm kind of a I'm not a
luddite per se. I mean, I was in the Navy
and of involved with lots of new technology, but I'm
a kind of a Missouri kind of a person. Show
show show me the money, show me the actual product.
So I think we need to pay attention to it.
(36:32):
We need to guard against China getting ahead of us.
I was very encouraged to hear the president. I know
it took a lot of heat about giving a part
into somebody that was involved with cyber and bitcoin and cryptocurrencies.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
And I don't know that individual.
Speaker 3 (36:49):
The President said, I didn't know that individual, but he
knew that the guy was unfairly treated in the previous administration.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
That was one point.
Speaker 3 (36:56):
But the other point, and this is the part that
the mainstream media cut off, as the President said, Hey,
this is important, this cryptocurrency. It's going to be important
for our future, and we can't let China get ahead
of us. I heard the President say those words, we
can't let China get ahead of us. In this technology,
and I feel like that's where he comes at a
(37:17):
lot of these things, rare earth elements, artificial intelligence, military everything.
He is trying to make America great again and keep
America first and not let the Chinese Communist Party have
controls over these critical areas that could threaten our national
(37:37):
security and the global security.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
And I know you take great heart from that kind
of statement, Jim, and I think properly so by and large,
I do want to just ask you a question, and
probably neither of us are terribly steeped in this, but
I've been listening to our friend Joe Allen of war
Room Fame, the author of Dark Aon He he is
(38:08):
of the view I think, and I'm pretty much as
well that where we might find real peril is that
in our competition to stay ahead of the Chinese in
this arena, we might actually become more like the Chinese. Specifically,
(38:29):
this whole idea of idea, I should say, of IDs
digital ideas, that is where everything can be essentially tracked
and monitored and surveiled and controlled. Basically, our friend Reggie
(38:51):
little John calls it the digital gulog. And as you
go down this road, I think that Wall Street Journal
article that you refer to, who talked about, you know,
concerns that we are already at the point where these
digital advances, these artificial intelligence advance has gotten them perhaps
(39:15):
beyond you know, human control, that we might well wind
up in a position where we're ahead of the Chinese,
but we're ahead of them going into a very dark place,
the digital gulag. We have to take a final break,
and I want to get your thoughts on that, if
you care to. But I also have some other things
(39:38):
we want to talk about. But I just have to
say I worry about franken Ai, as I call it,
things that are really not only beyond our control, but
very very dangerous to our security and our freedoms. And
that's a race I'm concerned about winning. In fact, back,
(39:59):
stay tuned, folks, We're back for the final installment of
(40:23):
this very very important conversation with one of the most
profoundly I think intelligent and influential leaders on the challenge
we face from the Chinese Communist Party. That would be
Captain James Fanel, United States Navy, co author of Embracing
(40:44):
Communist China, America's Greatest Strategic Failure and Jim, I want
to pivot from Ai. I think we both share concerns
about where this may be headed to something else. That
is a competition for sure, and the Chinese have got
a tremendous head start in shipbuilding. The President has made
(41:06):
it a priority. He's working various deals, including one with
South Korea to have them invest massively in our Philadelphia
shipyard for the purposes of building nuclear powered submarines. There
as a means of trying to up our game. Give us,
if you would, kind of a net assessment of where
(41:28):
we are on shipbuilding and just how vital it is
that we get back in the game.
Speaker 3 (41:34):
Well, Frank, I mean, the bottom line is is it
China's shipbuilding industry is the largest and the biggest ship
building industry in the world.
Speaker 2 (41:42):
It's number one.
Speaker 3 (41:43):
In terms of production and scheduled orders and backlog of orders,
Bigger than South Korea, bigger than Japan.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
Those are the big three.
Speaker 3 (41:52):
United States the Austin Aval Intelligence a year ago un
classified document was released power points slide that basically said
China ship building industry is two hundred and thirteen times
the size of the United States. And we see that
reflected over the last two decades where the United States
Navy has basically been out produced by the PERC in
(42:15):
warships four or five to one every year for the
last decade and a half at least. And it's also
in tonnage. Now it's not just in numbers of ships,
but it's in tonnage. It's a number of ANA ship
cruise missiles that's across the board.
Speaker 1 (42:29):
So weird, quality is this issue as well, sir? What's
that the quality of the ships?
Speaker 3 (42:34):
Yeah, their quality is high, theirs. Sustainment rates are high.
They're going out to the Gulf of Adens, steaming around,
they're steaming out in the Central Pacific, So they're operating
at sea like we do.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
Maybe not to the extent that we do, but they
are a blue water Navy today.
Speaker 3 (42:52):
So now this administration has come in the new Secretary
of the Navy FLAON and other ship infrastructure optimization program
that was talked about even today or yesterday in Indiana.
They're trying to introduce competition into the shipbuilding industries. So
how can we do that, Well, we can introduce it
(43:14):
domestically and we can try to incentivize people in America
to build ships. But that's pretty hard because there's not
much incentive there. It's not a big place to make money.
You have to have the land, you have to have
all these regulations approved, pass through all these regulations, or
we can try to go with some of our allies
and seek out their expertise and their excess capacity to
(43:38):
help us out with that. And so to that extent,
I think the President's on the right track. This administration
is on the right track. And they announced that they're
going to have South Korean shipyard help in Philadelphia to
help us start regenerating US navy warships and our commercial ships,
I think at first.
Speaker 2 (43:57):
But there's also.
Speaker 3 (43:58):
Something was said here in the last couple of weeks about,
you know, giving access or allowing the South Koreans to
join the nuclear Submarine Force. We'll see where that goes.
I have concerns like you about, you know, how do
we share that information because heretofore, even allowing Australia into
(44:18):
that with the Auchice.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
Agreement was very very much, you know, a very there.
Speaker 3 (44:24):
Was a lot of trepidation there still is in the
US about it. And now to ask or say we're
going to bring in South Korea not that we distrust
every South Korean but the people that are leading South
Korea today are clearly aligned, are aligning themselves with the
People's Republic of China, and we need to be very,
(44:44):
very concerned about that. So we have a challenge. We
have to build more ships. There's no other way to
say it. This nation's national security depends upon a robust
and competitive ship building industry to build not only commercial
ships and have that that allows our economy to flourish.
But we more importantly, we need our navy to be restored.
(45:07):
Our navy has been decimated over the last thirty five years,
cut in half from six hundred chips to less than
three hundred, and we are in a very dangerous place
where we cannot even defend our shores. Yes, we've got
a big carrier strike group down off of Venezuela, but
there's going to be a price to pay for that
extended deployment down there, and the long term effects on
(45:29):
the ten or eleven aircraft carriers that we have left,
and what does that mean for them and their rotations
and when they were supposed to go on deployment. And
it's not just the people and the scheduling which is
a massive concern, a massive effort to make sure these
now all line up afterwards.
Speaker 2 (45:49):
But it gets down to the very thing.
Speaker 3 (45:50):
Every one of those nuclear aircraft carriers has the nuclear
power plant and has a shaft, and the shaft is
design to have so many revolutions, and when those revolutions
are exceeded, because you're sending the carriers to places that
were not on a kind of a national schedule that
we were thinking ahead, which is what navies are for.
(46:11):
They're supposed to be flexible, but that puts an undue
strain on the life expectancy of those platforms.
Speaker 2 (46:18):
And where are the new ones coming from.
Speaker 3 (46:20):
And when we have problems with the you know, with
the Ford being delayed for her fielding like it was
for several years, it just compounds the problem. We don't
have excess capacity in our national defense when it comes
to the maritime domain, and we need to do that,
just like we needed in the chips and these other
areas that we've talked about, cybersecurity and infrastructure security and
(46:43):
military based infrastructure security. We need to have a large
navy that has excess capacity that can respond to crises
and not take and destroy the future of our navy
and make us vulnerable at home.
Speaker 1 (47:00):
Captain, there's a lot of food for thought there. As always,
you're drawing on a lifetime of experience as an actual
operator in the Navy, not just as an academic looking
at the data and the spreadsheets and so on. And
what experience has clearly taught you and I think should
(47:22):
be of importance to all of us, is when you're
in this kind of arrears, shall we say, you have
got to make a national priority of turning things around.
And like aircraft carriers, it isn't done overnight. It has
to be done in a sustained and disciplined way, to
(47:44):
be sure. But your clarity on all of these issues,
Captain is so appreciated, as is your visits with us
from a week upon week, as well as in connection
with our various webinars at the Committee on the Present
Danger of China. Thank you from the bottom of my
heart for all of it. Keep coming back if you would, sir,
hope the rest of you'll come back tomorrow. Till then
(48:05):
go forth and multiply
Speaker 2 (48:17):
M
Welcome to Securing America with me Frank Affney, the program
that's a kind of owner's manual for protecting the country
we love against all enemies foreign and domestic, to the
glory of God at his kingdom. We're going to talk
in this hour with one of our favorite guests, a
man of extraordinary experience and acumen, about what he calls
(00:47):
rightly the main thing that would be the Chinese Communist
Party and the threat that it represents to us. Before
we get into that in the course of this full hour,
I want to just set the stage well with a
different peace of the threat environment, with some comments about
what happened a decade ago this very time, In fact,
(01:11):
ten years ago today, jihadis launched coordinated and murderous attacks
against civilians across Paris. The experience deeply traumatized France, but
will be commemorated by a country that has, if anything,
become over the past decade even more vulnerable to such
Muslim terrorism. So unfortunately is ours. That's because in the
(01:33):
intervening years, both France and America have allowed in large
numbers of young men who practice the supremacist Islamic doctrine
known as Sharia, it obliges them to use violence to
impose Muslim rule worldwide. In France, civil war between such
immigrants and the native population seems increasingly inevitable. And here,
(01:58):
following Sharia adherent Zoron Mundani's election in New York, emboldened
Islamists are insisting that their rule must replace our constitutional republic.
Failing to learn and respond appropriately to the lessons of
past jihadism is an invitation to much more of it. Well,
(02:21):
those are my thoughts for more than following at exit
Frank Effney, and of course at us Future dot org,
the website of our Institute for the American Future. Support
us there place makes this program possible. We're going to
turn to that aforementioned guest, Captain James Finnell, United States
Navy Men, who, though he retired number of years ago,
(02:44):
made his mark while he was in the service and
continues to do so as an analyst and commentator and
author both of periodical columns as well as book length
treatments of as I say the main thing what the
threat posed by the Chinese Communist Party represents to us
(03:05):
in a book he co authored with doctor Bradley Thayer
entitled embracing communist China. He talked about what our decades
long embrace of the CCP has translated into both in
terms of their capabilities military and otherwise to wage war
(03:25):
against our country, and the extent to which they have
successfully done. So, Captain Fanel, welcome aboard. We are so
glad to have you, and thank you for giving us
a full hour of your very very limited time. We
so appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Well. Thanks, Frank, It's great to be with you as always.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Now you live on the continent of Europe, not too
far from France, and so before we get into the
main thing, I might just invite you to comment on
concerns that I think you have about what's happening not
just in France, but really through Europe, from Britain, I guess,
to the Polish border, maybe Hungary. What are your thoughts there?
Speaker 3 (04:05):
Yeah, Frank, I retired from the US Navy in twenty
fifteen and came here. My wife is Swiss and we
came here to central Europe. And when we came it
was right as the German government was opening up the floodgates,
if you will, into Germany and elsewhere across Europe. From
(04:27):
all these what they call refugees, and they were visible
to me right across the street, just fifty seventy five
yards away, in the old post office that used to
be here. And then in that year of twenty fifteen,
in the fall, my wife and I did go to Paris,
and we happened to be at the same locations where
(04:48):
those attacks occurred, so just a couple of weeks or
a week or so before it happened, and then we
were there a little bit later the next year. It's
it's just gotten worse, progressively worse over the decade, and
the countries of Europe are no longer the countries that
(05:09):
people in America have in their minds eye in terms
of sitting out in the cafes and enjoying, you know,
a coffee or a drink, or going up into the
mountains and thinking things, are you know, this kind of idiot,
idyllic lifestyle.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
It's really massively changed.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
And yes, there are some people here that legitimately are
trying to get out of really bad places, but there's
been really to almost none, no vetting process, and so
you're just seeing these wave after wave after wave for
a decade of people coming across and the culture is changing,
(05:49):
and it is very alarming. And you know, I'm an
American and I keep thinking about at some point, I
feel like the movie Winds of War.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
It's different, it's not.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
Nineteen thirties in Germany, but it's the same feeling that
something's going to break. And I'm very worried that the
same kind of mentality has overcome the United States, especially
during the Biden years, that we didn't pay attention to history.
And you know, whether we like it or not, whether
it was an endless war that we shouldn't have done, the.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Fact of the matter is the United States of America
fought long and hard and killed lots of people in
the Middle East.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
And for whatever you know, right or wrong reason, there's
a lot of people that have it out for us
and don't like us. And memories are long, and so
people should not ignore that history and should not rest
and think, oh, we're always going to be safe because
we've got the Pacific and Atlantic oceans protecting us.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
They did as long as we kept our border secure.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
And we did not during those Biden years massively. And Jim,
I guess I just would underscore what you've said about
learning the lessons of history. One of the lessons of
history talk about endless wars is that these Jihadis, for
at least fourteen hundred years since Mohammed's time, have been
(07:16):
at war with the rest of the planet and using
violence jihad as they call it, to conquer the rest
of the world. And it starts off in times when
they're not powerful enough to do it with force through
more stealthy means, including now in this country through elections.
(07:37):
And I am very much of your mind, sir, that
what we're seeing in Europe is very much what's in
store for the United States if we do not recognize
that when these people talk about and they have been
doing so and much much more aggressively since Zoramondani election,
(08:01):
that Islam will rule America, that Sharia will be the
law of our land as well. They're deadly serious about it,
and we ignore it at our peril. Jim, let me
pivot now to what is your principal focus and area
of great expertise, communists China. It should be noted that
(08:23):
the Chinese communists are working closely with the various Islamic supremacists,
even though they've got large numbers of Muslims incarcerated in
their whole country, but in the Beltum Road initiative and
in the Bricks movement so called Brazil, Russia, India, China,
(08:45):
South Africa grouping now expanded, there are quite a number
of those folks who seem willing to make common cause
with the Chinese communists at our expense, possibly even leading
to our destruction.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
Is that a fair comment, sir, Yeah, Frank, I think
that's very accurate. That China has been working again over
this past decade plus since G came to power, especially
but it predates him in terms of their strategic intentions,
but especially under G, they have really ramped up and
(09:21):
had a concerted campaign to upend the international order in
the post World War two environment that Americans fought and
died for, and Russians did and others did.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
But the fact of the matter is we were the victors.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
In World War two and the and the Allies that
we had with us, and we have not tended our
birthright and it's falling apart.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
We're going to pick up on that very point on
the other side of a very short break. Stay tuned
for much more with Captain James Finnel the United States
Navy retired. We're back, and so is Captain James Fanel,
(10:18):
United States Navy, retired. The author, a co author with
Bradley Fair of Embracing Communist China America's Greatest Strategic Failure,
and also a steady stream of superb comments, commentaries I
should say, and analyzes often at American Greatness. Captain, you
(10:39):
were just teeing up, as I hoped you would, the
challenge that the Chinese Communists now represent to well, not
just our country, but to the post World War two
world order that we brought about through our victory in
that horrific conflict. I did want to just go through
(11:02):
a couple of places where this is in evidence and
get your reaction to some recent developments. Starting in Japan.
We saw the consul general to I think it's Osaka
from China making the most outrageous statement about the Japanese,
(11:23):
the new Japanese Prime minister the other day, and I
wanted to get your take on what that's about and
the response us far from well, not only the Japanese
government Puro.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Yeah, Frank, I'm glad you characterized it that way.
Speaker 3 (11:37):
Starting off with the outrageous statements from this Chinese diplomat
we've heard of the wolf warrior diplomat someone around that
we know are calling them dog diplomats, very rude, threatening
statement about the Prime Minister of Japan, essentially saying, oh,
you know, we should cut your head off if you
stick your neck out into our business. But the Prime
(12:00):
Minister of Japan simply questioned and said, is hey, if
China were to ever invade Taiwan, that would have a
national security implication for Japan and we would have to
you know, she didn't say anything else, you just said
it would be a survival event for us that we'd
have to consider, yeah, existential, and we'd have to pay
(12:22):
attention to it.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
And the Chinese.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
Then this diplomat in Osaka came out and made these statements,
and since then the Chinese government has doubled down, tripled down,
and even today in the Global Times said if you
ever Japan get involved and use your military in response
to anything that happens in Taiwan, then that globes off
(12:46):
essentially and you will suffer the consequences and you'll have
crossed our redline. So they're not backing down, they're not
acknowledging what their diplomat said was undiplomatic, and I'm still
questioning why diplomat still in Japan. That's up to the
Japanese politics. But we have some colleagues and people that
are recommending that this person B P and G made
(13:09):
persona on Grada and kicked out of Japan. I think
it should have happened already this week. Should have happened
early in the week, and the United States hasn't really
said much about it. To my my chagrin, I think
we should have come out and been more clear to say, hey,
this is not acceptable language in the diplomatic arena and
(13:32):
we're not going to put up with this from bullies
in China.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Yeah, Jim, and you know you've you've been around diplomats
long enough to know that it's not just that these
were ill chosen words. They were clearly approved by Beijing.
They're clearly being supported by Beijing, and they are acceptable
because of what they are signaling, isn't it. It's not
just again the rhetoric. It's what they're signaling is the
(13:57):
growing appetite I guess or war with not just US
but Japan as well.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
Yeah, it's a test the Chinese Communist Party does this
with every new American president. They do an event, they
do something to test them and to test their resolve.
And this is clearly a test for Prime Minister Takeichi.
And there's a It has an implication for America. She's
a treaty ally, Japan's a treaty ally. And if our
(14:25):
treaty ally gets browbeaten in the first month or two
in office by the Chinese Communist Party, that makes it
much harder for us to deter China from doing any
other kind of bad activity.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Yeah, Jim, let me, let me pivot from East Asia,
and we could talk more about South China, see the Philippines, Australia.
Maybe we've come back to those if we have time.
But to our own hemisphere. The Chinese are evidently now
inserting themselves increasingly in Venezuela, where as you know, we
(15:02):
have large now naval elements deployed offshore, shooting in some
cases vessels coming out of Venezuela headed north reportedly with
drugs on them. What do you make of what the
Chinese have already done in our own hemisphere, but specifically
(15:25):
what seems now to be upping the Eddy and Venezuela.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
Well, I think we have largely ignored Latin America until
this administration the second term, and now we're starting to
peel the youngon back and starting to see some of
the corruption and the and the infiltration by China, Russia,
other players and so Iran as well. And so I
(15:51):
think what we need to recognize now is that China
has been laying the seeds down there, whether it's Panama
or sending their hospital ship through the Caribbean as they've
done several times, or you know, their diplomatic negotiations to
establish uh you know, sale of oil from Venezuela to
to China. All of this UH is alliance building between
(16:16):
this uh you know nexus of Russia, China, UH, Iran
in North Korea, and so we have to be very
concerned about that. And I think President Trump and his
team have been very clear we're under attack from narco terrorists,
and those narco terrorists are being supported UH through their
(16:36):
own greed and infrastructure that they have. Is is narco terrorists,
but they're also being backed by the national UH, support
from China, from Russia, from Iran and in North Korea
and other other terrorists type organizations that go to Venezuela
for training. So I think it's it's it's clear what
(17:00):
we need to do. And I know there's a lot
of angst here in Europe about sending the gerald Ford
Carrier strike Group down to this area. But my answer
to my European colleagues is one, the gerald Ford spent
three months or so out there already in the med
you know, providing support. You all have several carriers from
(17:24):
the Royal Navy, the French Navy, the Italian Navy, the
Spanish Navy. You have your own capability, so maybe you
can patrol your own waters for a while and let
us deal with this very serious threat to our homeland.
And that doesn't mean we ignore Europe, it doesn't mean
we ignore Asia, but it means that you can't deal
(17:47):
with those other external threats until you have a secure
southern border and you don't have people sending, as the
President said, sending drugs into the country to kill Americans,
and we know that they've killed hundreds of thousands of
them Americans with Chinese laced opioids, invent and all and
other things of that nature. So it's an existential threat
(18:07):
to us. It's killed hundreds of thousands of Americans, and
we need to put a stop to it, and we
need to send a signal back to Beijing and back
to Moscow and Tablan. Hey, don't even think about it.
It is a Monroe doctrine. Don't even think.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
About it, Jim.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
It's been said on this program. I think authoritatively that
the people running them as well at this point, are
really the greatest drug cartel in the world. They're Soles Group.
I think it's called it's now, you know, sort of
(18:45):
masquerading as the government of Venezuela. But it's all about
drug trafficking. So you're right, it's right at the heart
of this threat to us. Jim, very quickly, you mentioned
Iran a couple of times. I understand that the Chinese
are actively helping rebuild the Onion's military power after it
was substantially degraded by the Israelis. What can you say
(19:05):
about that in forty five seconds?
Speaker 3 (19:08):
Yeah, Frank, Obviously, Israel and the United States in that
twelve day war from Israel's especially put a big hurt
on Iran's, especially their air defense capabilities. Our attacks on
the nuclear facilities set them back years, and so we
shouldn't be surprised that Beijing is now warming their way
(19:28):
in to try to help them reconstitute their defensive capabilities
and their offensive capabilities.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
And we should be watching that and.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
Go ahead and maybe not be surprised, but we should
be taking note of it and recognizing that this has
yet another dimension of their unrestricted warfare against our country
and our vital interests. Jim, We're going to come back
and talk more about all of that on the other
side of a short break. I hope you'll stay tuned,
folks for more with Captain James Finel. We're back, so
(20:18):
is one of our favorite guests, Captain James Fanel, United
States Navy retired, a man of extraordinary accomplishment in uniform,
but one who has thankfully continued to devote himself to
public service in an informal capacity as one of the
analysts and commentators and organizers associated not least with our
(20:43):
committee on the Present Danger of China, for which we
are very grateful. Captain, we were talking about some of
the places that the Chinese have been operating around the
world at our expense, clearly part of the sort of
multi front capability that they've been anxious to have against
(21:05):
this country and the free world more generally, a place
we just sort of alluded to there a moment ago
that I would like to just use as a segue
to another theater in which the Chinese are operating, namely
here you circulated in your Red Storm Risen group a
(21:28):
very important news item about I believe it was the
Chief of Intelligence for Australia warning his countrymen that the
Chinese have been preparing for and actually engaged in attacks
on Australia's critical infrastructure through two operations, one known as
(21:55):
Salt Typhoon and another as Vault Typhoon. In passing he
sort of acknowledged that those attacks are also aimed at
our critical infrastructure here as well. Talk a little bit
about what that kind of behavior represents, sir, and its
(22:15):
implications especially inside America.
Speaker 3 (22:19):
Yeah, the OSIO Intelligence chief, I think his name is Burgess.
His comments last week about the Chinese infiltration, especially in
the cyber arena, into their government is remarkable given that
they have a labor government that's in charge, and their
Prime minister has been trying to you know, restart engagement
(22:43):
with the PRC for economic reasons, and China has been.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Trevor Laden says he's a full on communist for what
that's right.
Speaker 3 (22:51):
And they're ambassador to the United States is a friend
of China's as well, Kevin Rudd. So to have the
OSSIO chief Mountain make this statement, uh, it's really Uh.
I think people need to stick and you have pay
attention to what's being said. And the references to salt
typhoon and volt typhoon were then re reiterated by our
(23:15):
own FBI and SISA, this uh Cyber Security and Infrastructure
Security Agency that's a US government agency. So FBI sister
came out this week and said, oh, by the way, yeah,
this is happening, and we're being attacked by the Chinese.
Now they deny it, but these are the same people
that deny that they were sending fentanyl to the United
(23:36):
States and all the whole host of things.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
So I think, well, and have now promised Jim that
they're going to help us curb the flow effect. Yeah
that was know how many times they've promised that.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
Yeah, they're gonna they're going to restrict They said when
it comes to precursor chemicals, they're going to now have
a review process and they're not going to allow those
chemicals to go to the United States and other countries
and your and that this is after eight years of
promising the first Trump administration and the Biden administration, even
(24:09):
the Obama administration prominence promising America that they were not
allowing that to come out, and now all of a sudden,
they've come up with this new scheme, so.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
That there they lie at every turn.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
And the cyber attacks are very important because it's it's
critical infrastructure, but it's people in America should be very
concerned because it can be your own bank account, your
own your own mortgage, your own savings account, your own
investments in the stockice power.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Right, So it's a very real threat.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
And we we have you know, we have cyber agencies
in cyber command and things in America, but we need
to be the people that I talked to say, we're
being out matched and we're being outgunned because they have
so many people and they're focused on this. And so
the warnings from the AUSIO chief and our own government
should cause people to say, what are we doing to
(25:03):
harden our infrastructure and make sure that China's Chinese cyber
actors can't get inside our lifelines, and one of the
ways to do that is to review who were letting
into the country, because it's a lot easier to do
cyber activity once you're already here in the United States
and you're in our networks physically, as opposed to having
(25:24):
to have it come across and packets across cables on
the sea or through space.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
And so there's a.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
Lot of reasons why we should be asking ourselves who's
coming here from the People's Republic of China and what
are they doing and where are they at.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
Speaking with Jim, I understand that President Trump has indicated
that he is still open to the idea of having
six hundred thousand Chinese students in our country. Are you
hearing that, Sir?
Speaker 3 (25:55):
I saw the interview with Laura Ingram, and my only
statement is I'm a strong support of the president. We've
talked about this in previous episodes, and he knows what
he's doing. But sometimes it's worth for the American people
to stand up and say, hey, mister President, we have
great concern about this, and we don't think he should
(26:17):
do it, and we'd ask you to reconsider that. So
that's what I would say to him. He may have
another plan. He may have another reason for this. He
may have another deal working, or he's getting something from
g in the short term so that we can get
off of being under the threat of rare earth elements
or pharmaceuticals or some other thing that China has been
(26:38):
telling him behind the scenes that they're going to do,
and that you know, he doesn't want to push them
over the edge right at this time. So I don't
I'm not privy to those things, but if all things
are equal, I'd say get get him out.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
Yeah, I'm starting with the three hundred plus or so
that we've thousand that is that we already have here,
let alone adding you know twice that number. Jim, let
me just ask you one other element, speaking of, you know,
people that we don't want here, there are some number
of Chinese soldiers evidently that came across that open border
(27:16):
we talked about earlier in connection with the jihadis do
you have any particular number that you think is accurate
based on official estimates. I've heard them ranging from you know,
ten thousand to two hundred thousand. I'd be interested in
(27:37):
you're a better guess on the number. But more to
the point, Jim, What, given what you've just said about
the unrestricted warfare against us here at home and the
various ways in which it's easier to do it if
you're here, whether it's cyber or physical attacks or what
have you, how serious a problem does that represent, even
(27:59):
if it's just ten thousand Let's say.
Speaker 3 (28:02):
Well, I mean, I think the State somebody's made the
statement already it only took a dozen people to take
down the Twin Towers, So I think yeah, I mean,
so it doesn't take that many people to really create
severe havoc and to have a dramatic impact on America
American citizens and their safety, whether it's attacking or disrupting
(28:25):
a nuclear power plant or you know, having something happen
in a major sporting event or some kind of event
that impacts rail or commercial trucking, all kinds of things
that they could do to create have it. One of
the things that's got my attention right now is this
reporting that's come out this week that came out in
(28:46):
the Daily Caller and then came from State Armor Michael
Loodi or Luky that was reporting on this presence of
a Chinese a trailer park that's off of white Men
Airport Base in Missouri on the end of the runway.
That's a trailer park that's owned by the Chinese, and
(29:06):
it has some very serious implications because those are very important.
That's a very important military base for our national security
and the air portion of our nuclear triad or bomber force.
We have other installations that are, you know, near Chinese.
There's maps out there, people have done some of the homework,
(29:28):
detailed work that shows Chinese owners of property near US
military installations.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
I'm not sure why that is not being dramatic.
Speaker 3 (29:38):
That should be at the top of the list of
things that our governments looking into and verifying that we're
not part of the Chinese Communist Party.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Not everybody that comes from China.
Speaker 3 (29:50):
Is a hardcore communist, but we don't have that kind
of a surety of who these people are, just like
we don't have exact numbers of how many PLA soldiers
came across the southern border during the Biden years. Why not,
Why aren't we getting that information and what are we
doing to follow up on that?
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Yeah, and Jim, as you know, even if they're not
hardcore communists as you put it, they're all subject to
Chinese law which requires them to do the bidding of
the CCP if called upon to do so.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
No, right, I would guess.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
I would say there's probably some people that have come
here that have denounced the PRC and say I'm never
going back, and I have no association with them.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
I mean, I think there are people like that.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
But the ones that you're talking about that come here
that say they're going back, they are under direct manipulation
and control of the People's Republic of China, whether it's
on them personally or their families back at home.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Well, and that's the key point. Even if you don't
think you're going back, if you do have family there,
you know they've had these overseas Police Service centers as
they call them, inside this country, and the service they
provide apparently is connecting people who are here and of
interest to them to family members who are seemingly in
(31:10):
custody and maybe about to have a very bad time
of it.
Speaker 4 (31:13):
That's the kind of extortion that I think we can associate,
obviously with the Chinese communists, and to our great detriment,
perhaps if such individuals are weaponized against us, Jim, we have.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
To take another break when we come back. I want
to visit with you a little bit about that something
that's being called a new Cold war involving artificial intelligence,
what that's likely to translate into, and if it is
such a cold war, what are we going to do
to prevail in it, and what might be costs associated
(31:50):
with doing some be that and much more with Captain
James Fanel in this full hour conversation.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
Were back.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
We're back, So is Captain James Fannel, United States Navy, retired,
a career naval intelligence officer who served with great distinction
in uniform and continues to serve our country, albeit from
a forward deployed position, to try to assure that we
are clear about the threat we face from the Chinese
(32:39):
Communist Party. It's military that people's liberation army, and more generally,
it's economic, political, diplomatic, and other unrestricted warfare capabilities. And
Jim I was just teeing up before the break that
we are being told that a petition between the United
(33:01):
States and China that has evolved in recent well months
or certainly a year or two, amounts to a new
Cold war between the two countries. One that is a
very high stakes, perhaps at least as high, if not
more than the one that we had with the Soviet Union,
And which are nuclear forces competed for strategic advantage. What
(33:26):
are your thoughts about what's going on in this competition
with China and does it rise do you think to
that level of a Cold war or will it?
Speaker 2 (33:38):
Well, Frank, this issue is dominating the news in terms.
Speaker 3 (33:45):
Of The Wall Street Journal just had a piece three
days ago talking about this. The President talks about the
need to have the latest and greatest chips and prohibiting
China from getting that same kind of technology. He's keeping
the tech bros, if you will, the tech giants Navidia's
CEO Jensen Wong close inside the Trump orbit to maintain
(34:13):
are what appears at this point to be our technological
advantage in generative artificial intelligence over the People's Republic of China.
But as the Wall Street Journal reported, you know, China
has a kind of a history of doing that. They
let the United States spend the billions to get the technology,
and then they steal it, and then they adapt it
(34:36):
and mass produce it, like we saw with this electromagnetic
aircraft launch system on board their newest commissioned aircraft carried
the Fujian so they have his.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
Tech talking so many other examples.
Speaker 3 (34:51):
Right, So the question is right now is where is
China in this race with us? How important is it
or is this you know, we kind of a decade
ago had a similar kind of concern about cyber in
cyber and the web and you know, things of that nature,
and now we're talking about AI. It's generating trillions of
(35:14):
dollars in potential value in the video's over five trillion,
I think, I mean, so's it's it's really remarkable. It's
outpacing the cyber investments that were made in the late
two thousand or late you know, the ninety eight ninety
nine Silicon Valley tech startups, and then the money that
(35:39):
went into that.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
It's outpaced what Tesla did.
Speaker 3 (35:42):
And in terms of electric vehicles, this AI investment is
really big.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
So we need to be careful of it.
Speaker 3 (35:49):
Not just from the technological standpoint, but we also have
to make sure that we're not investing our money, in
America's money into something that could all be a house
of cards as well. So there's a lot of promise
there that the AI is going to be involved with
everything that we do We're seeing these ads now for
robots that are going to come and live with you
(36:11):
and help you and assist you. So there's a lot
of aspiration there. I'm kind of a I'm not a
luddite per se. I mean, I was in the Navy
and of involved with lots of new technology, but I'm
a kind of a Missouri kind of a person. Show
show show me the money, show me the actual product.
So I think we need to pay attention to it.
(36:32):
We need to guard against China getting ahead of us.
I was very encouraged to hear the president. I know
it took a lot of heat about giving a part
into somebody that was involved with cyber and bitcoin and cryptocurrencies.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
And I don't know that individual.
Speaker 3 (36:49):
The President said, I didn't know that individual, but he
knew that the guy was unfairly treated in the previous administration.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
That was one point.
Speaker 3 (36:56):
But the other point, and this is the part that
the mainstream media cut off, as the President said, Hey,
this is important, this cryptocurrency. It's going to be important
for our future, and we can't let China get ahead
of us. I heard the President say those words, we
can't let China get ahead of us. In this technology,
and I feel like that's where he comes at a
(37:17):
lot of these things, rare earth elements, artificial intelligence, military everything.
He is trying to make America great again and keep
America first and not let the Chinese Communist Party have
controls over these critical areas that could threaten our national
(37:37):
security and the global security.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
And I know you take great heart from that kind
of statement, Jim, and I think properly so by and large,
I do want to just ask you a question, and
probably neither of us are terribly steeped in this, but
I've been listening to our friend Joe Allen of war
Room Fame, the author of Dark Aon He he is
(38:08):
of the view I think, and I'm pretty much as
well that where we might find real peril is that
in our competition to stay ahead of the Chinese in
this arena, we might actually become more like the Chinese. Specifically,
(38:29):
this whole idea of idea, I should say, of IDs
digital ideas, that is where everything can be essentially tracked
and monitored and surveiled and controlled. Basically, our friend Reggie
(38:51):
little John calls it the digital gulog. And as you
go down this road, I think that Wall Street Journal
article that you refer to, who talked about, you know,
concerns that we are already at the point where these
digital advances, these artificial intelligence advance has gotten them perhaps
(39:15):
beyond you know, human control, that we might well wind
up in a position where we're ahead of the Chinese,
but we're ahead of them going into a very dark place,
the digital gulag. We have to take a final break,
and I want to get your thoughts on that, if
you care to. But I also have some other things
(39:38):
we want to talk about. But I just have to
say I worry about franken Ai, as I call it,
things that are really not only beyond our control, but
very very dangerous to our security and our freedoms. And
that's a race I'm concerned about winning. In fact, back,
(39:59):
stay tuned, folks, We're back for the final installment of
(40:23):
this very very important conversation with one of the most
profoundly I think intelligent and influential leaders on the challenge
we face from the Chinese Communist Party. That would be
Captain James Fanel, United States Navy, co author of Embracing
(40:44):
Communist China, America's Greatest Strategic Failure and Jim, I want
to pivot from Ai. I think we both share concerns
about where this may be headed to something else. That
is a competition for sure, and the Chinese have got
a tremendous head start in shipbuilding. The President has made
(41:06):
it a priority. He's working various deals, including one with
South Korea to have them invest massively in our Philadelphia
shipyard for the purposes of building nuclear powered submarines. There
as a means of trying to up our game. Give us,
if you would, kind of a net assessment of where
(41:28):
we are on shipbuilding and just how vital it is
that we get back in the game.
Speaker 3 (41:34):
Well, Frank, I mean, the bottom line is is it
China's shipbuilding industry is the largest and the biggest ship
building industry in the world.
Speaker 2 (41:42):
It's number one.
Speaker 3 (41:43):
In terms of production and scheduled orders and backlog of orders,
Bigger than South Korea, bigger than Japan.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
Those are the big three.
Speaker 3 (41:52):
United States the Austin Aval Intelligence a year ago un
classified document was released power points slide that basically said
China ship building industry is two hundred and thirteen times
the size of the United States. And we see that
reflected over the last two decades where the United States
Navy has basically been out produced by the PERC in
(42:15):
warships four or five to one every year for the
last decade and a half at least. And it's also
in tonnage. Now it's not just in numbers of ships,
but it's in tonnage. It's a number of ANA ship
cruise missiles that's across the board.
Speaker 1 (42:29):
So weird, quality is this issue as well, sir? What's
that the quality of the ships?
Speaker 3 (42:34):
Yeah, their quality is high, theirs. Sustainment rates are high.
They're going out to the Gulf of Adens, steaming around,
they're steaming out in the Central Pacific, So they're operating
at sea like we do.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
Maybe not to the extent that we do, but they
are a blue water Navy today.
Speaker 3 (42:52):
So now this administration has come in the new Secretary
of the Navy FLAON and other ship infrastructure optimization program
that was talked about even today or yesterday in Indiana.
They're trying to introduce competition into the shipbuilding industries. So
how can we do that, Well, we can introduce it
(43:14):
domestically and we can try to incentivize people in America
to build ships. But that's pretty hard because there's not
much incentive there. It's not a big place to make money.
You have to have the land, you have to have
all these regulations approved, pass through all these regulations, or
we can try to go with some of our allies
and seek out their expertise and their excess capacity to
(43:38):
help us out with that. And so to that extent,
I think the President's on the right track. This administration
is on the right track. And they announced that they're
going to have South Korean shipyard help in Philadelphia to
help us start regenerating US navy warships and our commercial ships,
I think at first.
Speaker 2 (43:57):
But there's also.
Speaker 3 (43:58):
Something was said here in the last couple of weeks about,
you know, giving access or allowing the South Koreans to
join the nuclear Submarine Force. We'll see where that goes.
I have concerns like you about, you know, how do
we share that information because heretofore, even allowing Australia into
(44:18):
that with the Auchice.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
Agreement was very very much, you know, a very there.
Speaker 3 (44:24):
Was a lot of trepidation there still is in the
US about it. And now to ask or say we're
going to bring in South Korea not that we distrust
every South Korean but the people that are leading South
Korea today are clearly aligned, are aligning themselves with the
People's Republic of China, and we need to be very,
(44:44):
very concerned about that. So we have a challenge. We
have to build more ships. There's no other way to
say it. This nation's national security depends upon a robust
and competitive ship building industry to build not only commercial
ships and have that that allows our economy to flourish.
But we more importantly, we need our navy to be restored.
(45:07):
Our navy has been decimated over the last thirty five years,
cut in half from six hundred chips to less than
three hundred, and we are in a very dangerous place
where we cannot even defend our shores. Yes, we've got
a big carrier strike group down off of Venezuela, but
there's going to be a price to pay for that
extended deployment down there, and the long term effects on
(45:29):
the ten or eleven aircraft carriers that we have left,
and what does that mean for them and their rotations
and when they were supposed to go on deployment. And
it's not just the people and the scheduling which is
a massive concern, a massive effort to make sure these
now all line up afterwards.
Speaker 2 (45:49):
But it gets down to the very thing.
Speaker 3 (45:50):
Every one of those nuclear aircraft carriers has the nuclear
power plant and has a shaft, and the shaft is
design to have so many revolutions, and when those revolutions
are exceeded, because you're sending the carriers to places that
were not on a kind of a national schedule that
we were thinking ahead, which is what navies are for.
(46:11):
They're supposed to be flexible, but that puts an undue
strain on the life expectancy of those platforms.
Speaker 2 (46:18):
And where are the new ones coming from.
Speaker 3 (46:20):
And when we have problems with the you know, with
the Ford being delayed for her fielding like it was
for several years, it just compounds the problem. We don't
have excess capacity in our national defense when it comes
to the maritime domain, and we need to do that,
just like we needed in the chips and these other
areas that we've talked about, cybersecurity and infrastructure security and
(46:43):
military based infrastructure security. We need to have a large
navy that has excess capacity that can respond to crises
and not take and destroy the future of our navy
and make us vulnerable at home.
Speaker 1 (47:00):
Captain, there's a lot of food for thought there. As always,
you're drawing on a lifetime of experience as an actual
operator in the Navy, not just as an academic looking
at the data and the spreadsheets and so on. And
what experience has clearly taught you and I think should
(47:22):
be of importance to all of us, is when you're
in this kind of arrears, shall we say, you have
got to make a national priority of turning things around.
And like aircraft carriers, it isn't done overnight. It has
to be done in a sustained and disciplined way, to
(47:44):
be sure. But your clarity on all of these issues,
Captain is so appreciated, as is your visits with us
from a week upon week, as well as in connection
with our various webinars at the Committee on the Present
Danger of China. Thank you from the bottom of my
heart for all of it. Keep coming back if you would, sir,
hope the rest of you'll come back tomorrow. Till then
(48:05):
go forth and multiply
Speaker 2 (48:17):
M
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