April 12, 2025 • 47 mins
SEGMENT 1: Frank Gaffney is joined by Gordan Chang Pt. 1
SEGMENT 2: Frank Gaffney is joined by Gordan Chang Pt. 2
SEGMENT 3: Frank Gaffney is joined by Gordan Chang Pt. 3
SEGMENT 4: Frank Gaffney is joined by Dede Laugesen & Matias Perttula Pt. 1
SEGMENT 5: Frank Gaffney is joined by Dede Laugesen & Matias Perttula Pt. 2
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Welcome to Securing America with me, Frank Afte, the program
that's a kind of owner's manual for protecting the country
we love against all enemies foreign and domestic, to the
glory of God and his kingdom. We're going to be
talking about a country that I believe in dangers the
country we love profoundly, and it seems more and more
(00:31):
so by the day. And we're going to be talking
with a man I regard as one of the pre
eminent experts in the country, if not in the world,
on the Chinese Communist Party, what it's up to, and
what it means for all of us. His name is
Gordon Change introduced him properly in a moment. But let
me set the stage for this conversation by talking about
(00:51):
something that is very much top of my mind in
connection with the Chinese threat. For decades, we've been told
Communist China is justin economic competitor. We were blithely assured
that if we engaged with and enriched the PRC by
transferring there much of our manufacturing capability, supply chains, and
(01:13):
investment dollars, it would become more like us. Arguably, in
the history of the world, there's never been a more
colossal strategic mistake. We've transformed communist China, all right, and
now it's a powerful, mortal enemy upon whom we are
(01:35):
critically dependent, even though the CP's stated goal is to
destroy this country. That's the context in which we must
consider the introduction this week of China's Deep Seek, a
free artificial intelligence model with the potential to engage and
addict millions of Americans even as we struggle to break
(01:58):
TikTok's grip on half our population. Even in its first
week on the market, Deep six Deep Seek excuse me
has undermined our own AI industry. If China's just an
economic competitor, no, no worries, Right. We've witnessed this predatory
pattern of stealing our intellectual property and using it to
(02:19):
hollow out our businesses for years. But if this and
other Chinese AI models now en route to our markets
are allowed to metastasize further, the CCP will have even
more of our personal data, be better positioned to propagandize
and influence US, and weaponize such capabilities to defeat America.
(02:41):
Today's Committee on the Present Danger China webinar explores such
threats and what we must do about them. Check it
out at Present Danger China dot org. Those are my thoughts.
For more of them, follow me at Frank Gaffney on
x and at Securing America. Do substack dot com, and
please consider supporting the work of our new Institute for
(03:05):
the American Future at us Future dot org. Let's get
the thoughts of our distinguished guest, Gordon Chang. You can
follow him as I do at Gordon g Chang on Twitter.
You can also observe and take aboard his extraordinary products
(03:25):
in places like the Gatestone Institute and Newsweek, and his
newest book, plam Read China's Project to Defeat America. Gordon
is a dear friend as well as a valued contributor
to this program, and we're always grateful to for taking
some time to catch us up on his thoughts and
(03:46):
his prescriptions about the Chinese Communist Party. Welcome back, Gordon,
Thanks so much for joining us again.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Well, thank you, Frank.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
I wanted to get your take on what I've just said. Gordon.
I think you have taught me most of what I
know about the folly of our engagement strategy with the
Chinese Communist Party. This seems less deep six. I call
it deep six. It's actually deep seat. The project is
(04:15):
of a piece with some of the worst of those follies.
What are your thoughts are?
Speaker 2 (04:20):
My friends call it deep sneak. Really, what we're talking
about is a large language model that is I think.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Run by the Communist Party.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Deep Seek is a private company. It was formed in
July twenty twenty three, and it's done something which is
just too fantastical for words. It created the world's best
AI and we know that because it's open source, so
there's very little doubt about that. But they said they
did it in a very short time frame. After all,
(04:54):
the company is, you know, less than two years old. Also,
they you know, they are reporting that they did this
for six million dollars. Well, open ai has stated and
other people have confirmed that what deep seek has done
is actually steal open AI's chat GPT GPT four to
(05:19):
be specific. And they did it by what's called distilling,
which is to use one large language model to teach another,
and that is a violation of the terms of service
of open ai. So really this is intellectual property theft.
But it shows you what China is willing to do.
What is important about this is because this is AI,
(05:40):
it gathers so much information, more than TikTok, for instance,
and because it's in Communist China, they have put restraints
on it, so it propagates the Communist Party's narrative. So
you know, all sorts of answers come out of this
that are inimicable to freedom and to the United States.
(06:01):
That is going to be a critical problem going forward.
And by the way, it is the most downloaded app
everywhere these days because it is free and it's basically
the best on the market.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
So what you've just described, Gordon, is I guess the
trojan horse being wheeled into this country and other nations
around the world with the express purpose, obviously of interacting
with individual consumers. And it's in the nature of artificial
(06:37):
intelligence that that develops a certain intimacy of knowledge about
those individuals, as well as an opportunity to insert ideas
or information or well propaganda into the hands of people,
(06:58):
the heads of people wide. What could possibly go wrong
with all that.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
What could possibly go wrong is that you have the
Communist Party with the introduction of Deep Seeks R one model,
which was January twenty by the way, a date that
we changed management in the United States, there's been a
blitz of Communist Party propaganda over the futility of American sanctions.
(07:27):
So the idea here is that Deep Seek's great supposedly
built around the American sanctions and so therefore trying to
convince the United States to give up all of those
measures that in fact restrict China's development of AI. So
all of this is much too convenient for me, and
(07:47):
I think that essentially, you know, there are a number
of things. It's possible that this was developed by a
private company, but it's more likely that this was a
long term project of the China New Central Government or
Communist Party that they just delivered to Deep See. I
don't know that to be the case, but I think
we should think about the possibility of that. But in
(08:10):
any event, the Communist Party is using the introduction of
the R one model to really just go at the
US and try to get us to drop our defenses.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
And and one of those is, in addition to efforts
to restrict software and obviously distilling opportunities for the Chinese,
we've made a push to try to prevent them from
having access to advanced well videot thing and you know,
(08:46):
these these other instruments that the video has been producing
now for some time. Is your theory of the case
that this is meant to suggest that those won't work either,
and therefore they should be dispensed with.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Yeah, this is I mentioned. It's a Communist Party blitz
on this issue, and it was I think built around
the introduction of deep seeks R one model. Of course
I can't prove that, but the two things occurred at
the same time, and in the Communist Party's very structured system,
there are fewer coincidences in China than they are anywhere else.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
It is a famous line of Communists that it's no accident,
Comrade right, I think, especially the timing of this rolling
out on the twentieth of January is no accident. Gordon
who thought, we'll be right back with much more with
the great Gordon Chang following at Gordon g Chang, as
I do, stay tuned. We're back and we are visiting
(10:05):
with Gordon Chang. One of our duty experts, revered, let
me just say duty experts on the Chinese Communist Party,
what it's up to, what it has been doing, what
it's capable of doing next, and what we had best
be thinking and doing about it, and Gordon, in connection
with all of that, and really keying off of what
(10:27):
you've just said about deep seek, I wanted to get
your latest thinking about what's going on with this other
trojan horse all very much inside our wire that would
be TikTok. By some estimates, one hundred and seventy three
million Americans are not only users of this platform, they
(10:53):
are addicted to it by design. There's been a lot
of thrashing and official Washington about what to do about
that fact. Talk us through, if you would, why this
is a very serious problem, and then we'll talk a
little bit about what Congress and well all three branches
(11:16):
of the US government have decided to do about it,
and then get to what Donald Trump is up to.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
TikTok poses really two grave threats to the United States.
First of all, it steals data. It has violated every
pledge that it's made to the United States about the
security of data. And it's also you know, every time,
it's violated laws of the United States and not just
(11:43):
laws on data protection but others. So it is hoovering
up enormous amounts of information. Now President Trump, from the
Oval Office said well, look, it's only the information about
kids and trying to minimize what was going on. Well,
I think it's a fact that every American president, every
(12:05):
Supreme Court justice, every member of Congress is once in
time been a kid. And the problem here is that
the information that TikTok is gathering can be used to
first of all find out a lot about the views
and the attitudes of these individuals who will be leaders,
but also for blackmail in some cases. So this is
(12:28):
a part of a broad based effort, I think, to
just take over the United States. The second grave threat
is the curation algorithm, which propagates China's narratives. So for instance,
right after Russia's invasion of Ukraine, we were getting Russian
disinformation about the war. But it's also it promotes illicit
(12:50):
drug use, self harm. It's been used to foment violence
on American streets. It is meant to destroy the court
of American society. So one hundred and seventy million Americans
have this app on their phone. So this is no
small threat to the United States.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
I couldn't agree more. Gordon, and just back on point one,
the information aggregation piece, even if it's just a kid's
cell phone, and even if you want to say, you know,
there's no harm in having the Chinese know everything about
that child. The ability that TikTok has inherent in the
(13:36):
platform to turn on that child's camera and microphone on
their phone at will, without permission or knowledge of anybody
in the surrounding area means that they're able to hoover
up an awful lot more data that could be very
problematic for parents or other family members. What have you.
(14:00):
On your second point, Gordon, and I think it's just
hard to overstate the significance of this, and it goes
back to what we're just talking about. It happening perhaps
on an even more horrific scale with Deep Seek or
other AI platforms which we're told in the works for
us from China, and that is this ability to absolutely
(14:25):
intravenously feed their narratives, their line, their agenda into the
heads of people who have no idea that it's even
being taken aboard, so preliminally or otherwise, Again the rhetorical question,
what could go wrong with that? We saw it going wrong,
as you've indicated on a couple of occasions, plus not
(14:48):
least in these well in some cases, demonstrations, in other
cases riots really on college campuses in support of the
Chinese Communist parties friends in Hamas.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Yes, if we want to know why there's been such
a fast spread of virulent anti Semitism in America over
the last couple of years, you can thank TikTok for that. Now,
of course there are other reasons, but TikTok has mightily
contributed to that. And this is the Communist Party's view.
That is, in the United States. China's curation algorithms in
(15:25):
TikTok and some newer apps are the most advanced in
the world. They're very effective. They know what your kid
wants to see, they know what your kid doesn't want
to see. They deliver this information and they're very good
at it. And they've got to remember that. In the
first Trump term, just at the end, when Trump was
(15:46):
trying to force a sale of TikTok to an American party,
that deals cratered, not over money, which is where most
deals fail. But it failed over the control of the
curation algorithm. China wasn't willing to give it up. Now,
China has used that algorithm, as I mentioned, to for
men violence on American streets, federal crime, active war. We
(16:08):
have the right to not only expropriate it, which we
can axpropriate any foreign asset in the US, we have
a right to confiscate it, in other words, take it
without compensation. So when President Trump says we need China's
approval for a sale, I don't think so. I think
that we apply American law, we start defending our country,
and we get serious about China.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
It's part of the larger urgent need to get serious
about China. And that's that's what I was trying to
get at at the beginning of my commentary Gordon, again,
informed by so much that I've learned from you. I
mean this notion that it's just about economics, that if
we just you know, compete with them and treat them
(16:54):
as economic competitors, that you know, will make them more
like us, or we'll get along in other ways. It
ain't so. And I'm kind of perplexed because, as I said,
we had the Congress of the United States, overwhelmingly on
(17:15):
bipartisan basis in both houses, saying we have to remove
TikTok from the control of the Chinese Communist Party. We
had Joe Biden signed that into law. We had a
unanimous Supreme Court of the United States saying it's constitutional
to do that. It's a national security imperative. And we
(17:38):
have Donald Trump, who has been as robust as any
president in memory about the threat from the Chinese Communist Party,
now doing something you've described as an illegal nullification of
the law and a piece that you published at Gatestone.
And I don't know whether this is a temporary, you know,
(18:01):
thing that he will you know, move past inevitably and
in due course. But it is unsettling that he not
only has you know, decided to put all this on
pause somehow, but he also had the CEO of TikTok
in a you know, privileged place at his inauguration. What
(18:24):
do you make of all that?
Speaker 2 (18:27):
I don't know what to make of it. If you
look at the Trump's Trump's activities and pronouncements so far
as president, we have to be extremely concerned.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
You know.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
It's not only wanting to go to China in the
first hundred days to strike a grand bargain, and it's
not only inviting Siegen Ping to the inauguration, which he
didn't come, the Vice president came. But it is this
action of directing the Attorney General not to enforce the
congressional Act that you mentioned, the Protecting Americans from Foreign
(19:05):
Adversary Controlled Applications Act. So this is, as you say, disturbing.
Now I have friends who are not in the administration,
but who are close to them, who said that Trump
really knows how serious the China threat is. He's actually
working on it, and all of this is sort of
(19:25):
like a Jedi mind trick on the Chinese. I hope
that's true. But as Axio said, he's gone soft on China,
and we need to make sure that we hold him
to that.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
We do. Indeed, Gordon, amiss, and hold the thought. We're
going to come right back with more than an extended
conversation with Gordon Chang. Stay tuned for it. Please welcome back.
(20:06):
Gordon Chang is in the house. I'm very pleased to say,
for a bit further and much more in depth conversation
than we sometimes are able to impose upon him. Gordon,
thank you for being generous with your time. I did
want to explore with you some of the signals being
sent at the moment you alluded to them in a
(20:26):
moment ago in sort of general the idea of going
to Beijing for one hundred day, you know, a grand
bargain negotiating exercise by the president. You talked about inviting
Ji to come to the inauguration and so on. What
I'd like to do is drilled down a little bit
(20:48):
further on some of the signals that are being sent
about Taiwan, notably by a man who is sitting pretty
close to the President's right hand. It appears Elon Musk
and the Gates a piece you challenged his thinking about Taiwan,
and I'd be interested in your thoughts about whether the
(21:08):
emerging evidence suggests it's reflective of a problematic attitude by
the president as well well.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Elon Musk has this view that Taiwan is part of China,
and really what we're doing is it would be a
part of the People's Republic were it not for the
US Navy, and that is wrong. You know, Elon Musk
can say we should give Taiwan to China, but he
(21:37):
can't change the facts. And the facts are that no
Chinese regime has ever held indisputable sovereignty to the island
of Taiwan. And that's a long historical discussion. One of
my favorite topics. I won't bore you with it, but
the point here is that the Qing dynasty, which for
(21:59):
a very period actually did rule some part of Taiwan,
was not considered Chinese, and Shan Kai Chek, who was
Chinese who did rule all of Taiwan, was not given
sovereignty by the nineteen fifty one San Francisco Treaty, which
ended and settled most of the legal disputes from World
War Two in Asia. So Elon Musk is wrong. And
(22:22):
by the way, the people in Taiwan, they love China,
but they don't believe that they are Chinese. And we
have seen this consistently from self identification survey to self
identification survey. They overwhelmingly believe that they're Taiwanese, not Chinese.
And so Elon Musk can say, yeah, we don't care
about it, we'll turn our backs, we'll be craven, but
(22:46):
he has to admit what he is doing because his
facts are one hundred percent, one hundred percent wrong.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
This is a very helpful bit of historical level setting.
Gordon and I have to say that there's a lot
of confusion on that point. So we desperately need the
kind of authority you're bringing to this. In addition to
the fact that he may be wrong just on the
(23:16):
merits of the case, it certainly seems as though it
might have something to do with the fact that he
is deeply involved with the Chinese Communist Party in his businesses,
particularly Tesla in China. No, and to what extent is
that in your assessment, Gordon coloring perhaps not only his
(23:41):
own interests and attitudes, but also the kind of advice
or influence that he's exercising with President Trump.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
Yeah, I'm not on in Elon Musk's mind and I'm
not part of the administration. They don't talk to me,
so I can't answer what exactly is going on, but
I can state the facts and that Tesla is dependent
on China. It has his gigafactory in Shanghai. It's going
to be making batteries there. And we've got to be concerned,
(24:14):
as the Senate has been concerned, that China's leverage over
Elon Musk because of Tesla will affect the way Elon
Musk manages SpaceX, because if we get back to the Moon,
or if we go to Mars or any of those things,
it will be primarily because of SpaceX won't be NASE,
won't be blue origin. So this is a national security
(24:37):
matter which we should have a discussion of. And as
I mentioned, the Senate has actually Senate committees have actually
discussed this very issue concern about China's leverage over elon Musk.
You know, the fact that he says Musk says things
which we just talked about in terms of China's sovereignty
(24:59):
over time, that's a real concern. So, as I said,
I'm not in his mind, but we all can see
the facts.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
Gordon, I'm sorry to say that it appears as though
there are other people that are entering the administration at
various levels that are similarly of the view that Taiwan
is not our problem, that basically we need to avoid
conflict with the Chinese at all costs, and that if
(25:32):
we simply engage more with them in trade, particularly that
we will ameliorate their sense that we are the enemy
and they need to have a military build up to
counter us, and so on. Could you just do a
little bit of a sanity check on this idea. And
I want to specifically mention that among those who have
(25:54):
been espousing it is a guy who has been staffing
the the Trump Defense Department by the name of Dan Caldwell,
formerly of the Coke Family Enterprise, and another alumnus of
that group, namely John Andrew Byers, who is the new
(26:18):
Deputy Assistant Secretary for South and Southeast Asia. I don't
think China is specifically in his portfolio, but obviously his
influence would be felt on our policies towards the region.
Could you just explicate for us where this inevitably takes you,
(26:38):
if this becomes the kind of policy approach that President Trump,
despite his past record, despite I think his body of
work on the danger that we face from the Chinese
Communist Party, is now embracing.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
Well, it takes us perhaps to the World War three.
And let me go back up for a moment. You know,
Trump's foreign policy, as we're starting to see it focuses
on the Western hemisphere. I don't think he's that interested
in any other part of the world. And yes, it
is welcome that he is now paying attention to Panama Canal,
(27:17):
for instance, and all sorts of things. It doesn't mean
you abandon the rest of the world. And what we're
hearing people right now are too embarrassed to say that
they're engagers, but they do now talk about restraint, and
so I guess we can call them the restrainers. The
problem is that this is taking us to a place
(27:39):
where it is going to allow the world's worst elements,
in other words, China and Russia from absorbing large portions
of the globe. You know, we saw this in the
nineteen thirties where Britain and France were so much more
powerful than the Third Reich. But restrain themselves. For instance,
they restrain themselves eighteen thirty six, where they allowed the
(28:01):
remilitarization of the Rhineland and violation of the Versailles Treaty.
They didn't do anything when Hitler absorbed Austria in nineteen
thirty eight. In nineteen thirty eight. Later on they had
the Munich Pack, and they allowed Hitler to violate the
Munich Pack by taking the parts of Czechoslovakia that were
supposed to be outside the Third Reich. So that was
(28:24):
World War Two, and we're seeing essentially the same thing
happen right now. If we allowed China to take Taiwan,
parts of Philippines, Japan, whatever, and we allowed Vladimir Putin
to absorb Ukraine. That's World War three. Right now. We
have wars in Ukraine, we have insurgencies in North Africa
(28:45):
that looked like wars. We got the war in the
Middle East. You add one more war in East Asia,
and that is World War three. And I don't want
to exaggerate it, but Frank that really looks like where
we're going now. I hope that Trump has more sense
than that. But clearly, when you look at, for instance,
the evolution of the thought of people who were very
(29:08):
pro Taiwan who have gone into the administration, who have
now gone soft on the issue, we got to be
extremely concerned.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
Good. I can't overstate the importance of what you've just said. This.
I call it not restraint, I call it retreat. And
the impact that has on totalitarian thugs, whether it's Adolf
Hitler or whether it's Joseph Stalin or whether it's Jijingping,
(29:38):
is absolutely predictable. They see a vacuum of power, they
will fill it, and they will fill it to the
maximum degree they can at our expense, not just the
freedom loving people of Taiwan or others. And I guess
the thing that I'm so concerned about, as obviously are you,
(29:58):
is that what I've called world war world War three,
world War g He's already underway. It's just a question
now does it expand still further to you know, our
mortal peril, both in East Asia and quite probably here.
(30:21):
And it need not be that way. If we are
signaling robustly as Donald Trump has, I think on the
campaign trail, among other places, we would be doing to
the Chinese Communist Party. Let me ask you about one
other thing quickly, A Gordon. We've got about a minute.
President Trump said in his remarks I believe right after
his inaugural address, well he's still up in the capital,
(30:44):
to a bunch of supporters, that he had had a
very good conversation with Vladimir Putin a while back about
getting into some new parley. Arms control, I guess is
what they're calling. It talks about denuclearizing the arsenals of
Russia and the United States. But also he indicated that
(31:07):
China was on board with us. Do you thirty seconds,
do you see any evidence of that, sir?
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Extremely little China has been adamant about not joining arms
controlled discussions, and they're now adding basically conditions that would
make arms controlled discussions impossible. They want the United States
and Russia to reduce the arsenals before they even start
talking to China.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
So I think that's been their historic position, but they're
not deviating from it.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
Is the point, yeah, this is There are all sorts
of good things in the world you can't accomplish.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
This is one of them. Amen to Gordon, Thank you
for so much. Come back to us soon if you would,
God blessed, we'll be right back. Folks to stay too.
(32:09):
Welcome back, and a very special welcome to my favorite
co host. Her name is Dede Logison. She is the
executive director of Save the Persecuted Christians, wonderful organization I'm
proud to be president of and to each week help
educate us about what is happening to the most heavily
(32:34):
persecuted population on the planet and the largest persecuted population
on the planet for that matter, namely Christians around the world.
She is kind enough to bring to our program each
week a special guest, and we have a very special
(32:54):
one today. Introduce him if you would.
Speaker 3 (33:00):
Thanks Frank. We have worked long and hard with Mattias Pertula,
who is the executive director of Save Armenia. Many people
do not really even know where Armenia is. It's in
the Caucuses, you know, north of Iran, east of Turkey,
(33:22):
west of Azerbaijan, and it's really stuck in the middle.
But it is the world's first Christian nation, having converted
to Christianity as a nation in three hundred and one AD.
So we're happy to have Mattias here with us. We
work together on elevating the issues facing Armenia. Mattias tell
(33:45):
us a little bit about Armenia and the threats that
they are facing, the Christians there are facing.
Speaker 4 (33:51):
Sure, so then not to belabor too much on this point,
but you know, obviously the first Christian country in the world.
But you know, over the last three years or so,
President Aliev of Azerbaijan, alongside with Turkey, have really ramped
up the pressure on Armenia on a number of different ways,
most recently in twenty twenty three in September, where Aliev
(34:16):
and his military invaded a region known as Nagarno Karabak.
This is an Armenian Christian region and has been Armenian
Christian for literally since Christ walked the earth or in
those days, and covered in churches and cemeteries of Christian
Armenian heritage, all of which is under threat now by
(34:38):
President Aliev in his military and destroying these churches and
these cemeteries. There's another enclave to the west of Armenia
known as Nanichevan, and this is another area where the Asis.
They control this region, but they have also ethnically cleansed
that region over the years, to the point that we've
(35:00):
heard numbers that they have destroyed more churches, more holy
sides than Isis has destroyed in their rampays throughout the
Middle Eaged Miast.
Speaker 3 (35:11):
That is just so disturbing to hear about these ancient,
many of them going back centuries, historic churches being raised.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
To the ground.
Speaker 3 (35:24):
And online you can see the Jihattists because we have
the Turkish Islamis in Azerbaijan who are brothers to the
Turks in Turkey and they'd like to go right across
Armenia and open up a trade route. So there's a
(35:44):
lot of rhetoric coming from both leaders and very disturbing.
All of this started under the cover of COVID in
twenty twenty when they attacked when Azerbaijan attacked Nigerna Kara
bakh Uh, and we brought in September a number of
(36:04):
witnesses from the Nigerna Karabak region, refugees from there who
are now living in Armenia proper. Tell us a little
bit more about their stories and and and what they're experiencing.
Speaker 4 (36:19):
Now, Yeah, some of the witnesses that we are instance
brought in September, One of them really touched my heart.
Her sister was captured by the Azaris, raped, gang, raped,
and mutilated for weeks on end. And to take it
beyond that, they celebrated these actions publicly on various social
(36:44):
media channels, celebrating how they had overcome this and this
woman and so on, and just built the most horrific
things you could possibly imagine to put a person through.
The other individuals we had was a father who ran
a monastery in Nagarno Karabak that was bombed. One of
the ladies that was joining us was with him when
(37:06):
that area was being bombed and she lost her oldest
child in that bombing. Indiscriminate targeting of civilian areas by
the Asis is just absolutely horrendous. We need what we've
been trying to do is get the word out on
all these stories because this conflict that just didn't grab
enough attention. Most of the world ignored. There was a
(37:28):
lot going on, certainly and rightfully so with everything that
Israel was dealing with Hamas and so on. But these
stories need to get told and this issue needs more attention.
Speaker 3 (37:38):
So yeah, next week at the International Religious Freedom Summit
will be bringing Armenian witnesses and experts. Again, what do
you hope for the IRF Summit, the International Religious Freedom Summit.
Speaker 4 (37:54):
I am very hopeful that during this week this issue
is going to get elevated like never before and they
will get their due do notoriety and support that they
need in this really, really critical time. As you mentioned,
the rhetoric has been building up again from President Aliev,
and usually this kind of heinous rhetoric from this leader
(38:18):
precedes potential military incursions or more military interaction against Armenia.
So we need to be very watchful of this and
this issue needs to be on the radars all decision
makers and DC advocates and international religious freedom groups working
together in concerts.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
Yes, we have to take a short break here, just
a moment. I wanted just to add to what you've
said and set up further conversation about this on the
other side, and that is unfortunately, we're on notice already
from the Azaris and the Turks for that matter, that
(38:57):
they intend to do to our Menia what they've done
recently to nigoona carba or outside as it's called. And
so it is now incumbent upon us, and I hope
the International Religious Freedom Summit will provide the vehicle that
(39:17):
you're talking about to push back very aggressively with the
help of the Trump administration on this idea, because I
think you're absolutely right. If past is prelude, what they're
doing right now is cycling up for the next act
of genocide against Christians. It must be blocked. We'll be
(39:40):
right back with more with did Logison Metees Bertilla right
after this welcome back. We are in the midst of
(40:08):
my favorite segment of the week. I think that is
the one I share with our friend and colleague D. D. Logison,
save the Persecuted Christians segment. We're visiting with Mattias Peter,
a man who is in the forefront of the fight
to avoid further persecution and indeed genocide against Christians in
(40:31):
Armenia at the hands of Azerbaijan and Turkey, and we
were talking before the break a little bit, Mattias, could
you just read us in a little bit more detail
on what the what the Azaries their allies have been
saying about their plans for Armenia and what Trump administration
(40:55):
has been saying about it as well.
Speaker 4 (40:57):
Yes, absolutely happy to so a little bit of context here.
Turkey is Azerbaijan's closest ally. They are responsible for modernizing
Azerbaijan's military up to NATO standards, as we all know,
Turkey's a NATO ally. But recently in terms of rhetoric
of what the Aliv regime has been saying, now they're
calling Armenia this fascist regime and it needs to be removed.
(41:21):
These Nazis need to be removed, which is complete you know,
I don't need to complete bogus in this sense. It's
all just political rhetoric, ramping up the international community and
trying to create some sort of public cover as to
why they want to be attacked, why they want to
be going back into Armenia, and trying to justify their actions.
(41:44):
The reality is that Aliev and Azerbaijan have been working
very closely with Turkey to wanting to eradicate Armenia completely
from the region. In fact, there's even reports of secret
projects and where they are renaming Armenian cities into Azerbaijani
(42:05):
names and so on. In fact, they even call Armenia
the Western Azerbaijan, if you can believe that. So the
intentions are quite clear on what their long term game is.
They want to connect the two countries Turkey and Azerbaijan,
and Armenia is standing in the middle.
Speaker 1 (42:22):
And the idea would be to essentially take at least
part of it, if not all of it too, if
not all of it connection And what would that mean
for Christians? Is there any doubt in your mind that
this would be in fact violent and very very genocidal
in character.
Speaker 4 (42:41):
Well, if you look at the track record of Nagarno Karabak,
it will be very violent. You know, scores of people
have died in that I do not think the level
of vitriol against the Armenian Christians from Azerbaijan is at
that level of genocidal talk. It will create a massive
(43:01):
humanity humanitarian disaster in the region. Forced the removal of
Armenian Christians from that region, which they've inhabited for hundreds
and thousands of years. It will be a disastrous, disastrous
situation for that region.
Speaker 1 (43:18):
And of course, the Turks did engage in genocide against
the Yes, Christians in the of course of World War One.
Let's talk about Donald Trump. Did he during his campaign?
Of course he was vocally concerned about the Armenian situation.
Give us a sense of what he's promised and what
(43:41):
we expect will come from his administration.
Speaker 3 (43:44):
Now, Yeah, so that President Trump was, as you said,
tweeting about Armenia just at the end of his campaign,
which was a and that was in preparation for COP
twenty nine, in which Azerbaijan was elevated after ethnically cleansing
Nigorno Kara Bak to host this World conference on climate
(44:08):
and elevated on the world stage, much to just the
chagrin of human rights advocates like ourselves who fought to
boycott back who and continue to press that message that
the world should not stand with Azerbaijean or partner with
them as they're committing acts of genocide against their neighbors.
(44:30):
So President Trump has yeah, and threatening so much worse.
So President Trump has been vocal on this, and I
think that he is going to not waive the Section
nine oh seven sanctions which bar military sales to Azerbaijean.
(44:50):
This Senate blocked that last year for fiscal year twenty
four and twenty five, but it didn't pass through. Yeah,
but it didn't pass through Congress, and so this Every
president since those have been put in place has waived
those sanctions. But I don't think President Trump is going
to sell military arms into Azerbaijan, knowing what's a foot
(45:15):
with Armenia.
Speaker 4 (45:17):
What are your thoughts on that, Mattias, Well, certainly my hopes,
I mean my hopes aligned with what Didi has said.
The tweet or the post that Donald Trump put out
in the campaign was very pointed, and he put it
in a way that highlighted the one hundred and twenty thousand
Christians that were forcefully removed from Nagarnal Karbak. He made
(45:40):
it very very specific, and I think he means business.
If we know Donald Trump, he means business and he
means to follow through with what his promises are. So
I from my perspective, I'm very hopeful to see the
pressure put on Azerbaijan and to really brings the ability
(46:00):
and peace into that region. The Armenians one piece, the
Armenian Christians one piece. They're ready to sign peace deals yesterday,
the day before. The Ali regime is the one that
continues to come up with bogus excuses as to why
they cannot sign and make ridiculous demands of the Armenian government.
Speaker 1 (46:21):
Holding.
Speaker 3 (46:23):
Yes, they're holding prisoners of conscience in Azerbaijan.
Speaker 1 (46:28):
We've only got a minute left. I did want to
just add that another consideration for President Trump, I would
hope would be the fact that Turkey is actively engaged
in genocidal activities elsewhere, notably in Syria at the moment
against Kurds and Christians were told your insights into that problem.
Speaker 4 (46:48):
Turkey needs to be held to account. Finally, absolutely, and
I don't think that the Trump administration is ignorant about
what the Turkey's Turkish ambitions are and they realize full
well what Urduwan is attempting to do in the region.
They want to project themselves as the great power in
that region. Now's the time for Donald Trump and for
(47:10):
this administration to really put the pressure on Turkey, just
the way they did with Andrew Brunson when he was
being held in prison. That's the same thing that needs
to happen.
Speaker 1 (47:21):
We have to leave it at that. I just want
to conclude by saying that is one of the things
that we say the persecuted Christians are very actively championing,
and that is hold the persecutors accountable, penalize them for
what they're doing to great disincentives to it. Thank you
both for your great work. Keep it up. We'll look
forward to a report after the summit. God bless you,
(47:42):
God bless all the well. I hope you'll come back
to us next time, and until then you will go
forth and multiply
Welcome to Securing America with me, Frank Afte, the program
that's a kind of owner's manual for protecting the country
we love against all enemies foreign and domestic, to the
glory of God and his kingdom. We're going to be
talking about a country that I believe in dangers the
country we love profoundly, and it seems more and more
(00:31):
so by the day. And we're going to be talking
with a man I regard as one of the pre
eminent experts in the country, if not in the world,
on the Chinese Communist Party, what it's up to, and
what it means for all of us. His name is
Gordon Change introduced him properly in a moment. But let
me set the stage for this conversation by talking about
(00:51):
something that is very much top of my mind in
connection with the Chinese threat. For decades, we've been told
Communist China is justin economic competitor. We were blithely assured
that if we engaged with and enriched the PRC by
transferring there much of our manufacturing capability, supply chains, and
(01:13):
investment dollars, it would become more like us. Arguably, in
the history of the world, there's never been a more
colossal strategic mistake. We've transformed communist China, all right, and
now it's a powerful, mortal enemy upon whom we are
(01:35):
critically dependent, even though the CP's stated goal is to
destroy this country. That's the context in which we must
consider the introduction this week of China's Deep Seek, a
free artificial intelligence model with the potential to engage and
addict millions of Americans even as we struggle to break
(01:58):
TikTok's grip on half our population. Even in its first
week on the market, Deep six Deep Seek excuse me
has undermined our own AI industry. If China's just an
economic competitor, no, no worries, Right. We've witnessed this predatory
pattern of stealing our intellectual property and using it to
(02:19):
hollow out our businesses for years. But if this and
other Chinese AI models now en route to our markets
are allowed to metastasize further, the CCP will have even
more of our personal data, be better positioned to propagandize
and influence US, and weaponize such capabilities to defeat America.
(02:41):
Today's Committee on the Present Danger China webinar explores such
threats and what we must do about them. Check it
out at Present Danger China dot org. Those are my thoughts.
For more of them, follow me at Frank Gaffney on
x and at Securing America. Do substack dot com, and
please consider supporting the work of our new Institute for
(03:05):
the American Future at us Future dot org. Let's get
the thoughts of our distinguished guest, Gordon Chang. You can
follow him as I do at Gordon g Chang on Twitter.
You can also observe and take aboard his extraordinary products
(03:25):
in places like the Gatestone Institute and Newsweek, and his
newest book, plam Read China's Project to Defeat America. Gordon
is a dear friend as well as a valued contributor
to this program, and we're always grateful to for taking
some time to catch us up on his thoughts and
(03:46):
his prescriptions about the Chinese Communist Party. Welcome back, Gordon,
Thanks so much for joining us again.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Well, thank you, Frank.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
I wanted to get your take on what I've just said. Gordon.
I think you have taught me most of what I
know about the folly of our engagement strategy with the
Chinese Communist Party. This seems less deep six. I call
it deep six. It's actually deep seat. The project is
(04:15):
of a piece with some of the worst of those follies.
What are your thoughts are?
Speaker 2 (04:20):
My friends call it deep sneak. Really, what we're talking
about is a large language model that is I think.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Run by the Communist Party.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Deep Seek is a private company. It was formed in
July twenty twenty three, and it's done something which is
just too fantastical for words. It created the world's best
AI and we know that because it's open source, so
there's very little doubt about that. But they said they
did it in a very short time frame. After all,
(04:54):
the company is, you know, less than two years old. Also,
they you know, they are reporting that they did this
for six million dollars. Well, open ai has stated and
other people have confirmed that what deep seek has done
is actually steal open AI's chat GPT GPT four to
(05:19):
be specific. And they did it by what's called distilling,
which is to use one large language model to teach another,
and that is a violation of the terms of service
of open ai. So really this is intellectual property theft.
But it shows you what China is willing to do.
What is important about this is because this is AI,
(05:40):
it gathers so much information, more than TikTok, for instance,
and because it's in Communist China, they have put restraints
on it, so it propagates the Communist Party's narrative. So
you know, all sorts of answers come out of this
that are inimicable to freedom and to the United States.
(06:01):
That is going to be a critical problem going forward.
And by the way, it is the most downloaded app
everywhere these days because it is free and it's basically
the best on the market.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
So what you've just described, Gordon, is I guess the
trojan horse being wheeled into this country and other nations
around the world with the express purpose, obviously of interacting
with individual consumers. And it's in the nature of artificial
(06:37):
intelligence that that develops a certain intimacy of knowledge about
those individuals, as well as an opportunity to insert ideas
or information or well propaganda into the hands of people,
(06:58):
the heads of people wide. What could possibly go wrong
with all that.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
What could possibly go wrong is that you have the
Communist Party with the introduction of Deep Seeks R one model,
which was January twenty by the way, a date that
we changed management in the United States, there's been a
blitz of Communist Party propaganda over the futility of American sanctions.
(07:27):
So the idea here is that Deep Seek's great supposedly
built around the American sanctions and so therefore trying to
convince the United States to give up all of those
measures that in fact restrict China's development of AI. So
all of this is much too convenient for me, and
(07:47):
I think that essentially, you know, there are a number
of things. It's possible that this was developed by a
private company, but it's more likely that this was a
long term project of the China New Central Government or
Communist Party that they just delivered to Deep See. I
don't know that to be the case, but I think
we should think about the possibility of that. But in
(08:10):
any event, the Communist Party is using the introduction of
the R one model to really just go at the
US and try to get us to drop our defenses.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
And and one of those is, in addition to efforts
to restrict software and obviously distilling opportunities for the Chinese,
we've made a push to try to prevent them from
having access to advanced well videot thing and you know,
(08:46):
these these other instruments that the video has been producing
now for some time. Is your theory of the case
that this is meant to suggest that those won't work either,
and therefore they should be dispensed with.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Yeah, this is I mentioned. It's a Communist Party blitz
on this issue, and it was I think built around
the introduction of deep seeks R one model. Of course
I can't prove that, but the two things occurred at
the same time, and in the Communist Party's very structured system,
there are fewer coincidences in China than they are anywhere else.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
It is a famous line of Communists that it's no accident,
Comrade right, I think, especially the timing of this rolling
out on the twentieth of January is no accident. Gordon
who thought, we'll be right back with much more with
the great Gordon Chang following at Gordon g Chang, as
I do, stay tuned. We're back and we are visiting
(10:05):
with Gordon Chang. One of our duty experts, revered, let
me just say duty experts on the Chinese Communist Party,
what it's up to, what it has been doing, what
it's capable of doing next, and what we had best
be thinking and doing about it, and Gordon, in connection
with all of that, and really keying off of what
(10:27):
you've just said about deep seek, I wanted to get
your latest thinking about what's going on with this other
trojan horse all very much inside our wire that would
be TikTok. By some estimates, one hundred and seventy three
million Americans are not only users of this platform, they
(10:53):
are addicted to it by design. There's been a lot
of thrashing and official Washington about what to do about
that fact. Talk us through, if you would, why this
is a very serious problem, and then we'll talk a
little bit about what Congress and well all three branches
(11:16):
of the US government have decided to do about it,
and then get to what Donald Trump is up to.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
TikTok poses really two grave threats to the United States.
First of all, it steals data. It has violated every
pledge that it's made to the United States about the
security of data. And it's also you know, every time,
it's violated laws of the United States and not just
(11:43):
laws on data protection but others. So it is hoovering
up enormous amounts of information. Now President Trump, from the
Oval Office said well, look, it's only the information about
kids and trying to minimize what was going on. Well,
I think it's a fact that every American president, every
(12:05):
Supreme Court justice, every member of Congress is once in
time been a kid. And the problem here is that
the information that TikTok is gathering can be used to
first of all find out a lot about the views
and the attitudes of these individuals who will be leaders,
but also for blackmail in some cases. So this is
(12:28):
a part of a broad based effort, I think, to
just take over the United States. The second grave threat
is the curation algorithm, which propagates China's narratives. So for instance,
right after Russia's invasion of Ukraine, we were getting Russian
disinformation about the war. But it's also it promotes illicit
(12:50):
drug use, self harm. It's been used to foment violence
on American streets. It is meant to destroy the court
of American society. So one hundred and seventy million Americans
have this app on their phone. So this is no
small threat to the United States.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
I couldn't agree more. Gordon, and just back on point one,
the information aggregation piece, even if it's just a kid's
cell phone, and even if you want to say, you know,
there's no harm in having the Chinese know everything about
that child. The ability that TikTok has inherent in the
(13:36):
platform to turn on that child's camera and microphone on
their phone at will, without permission or knowledge of anybody
in the surrounding area means that they're able to hoover
up an awful lot more data that could be very
problematic for parents or other family members. What have you.
(14:00):
On your second point, Gordon, and I think it's just
hard to overstate the significance of this, and it goes
back to what we're just talking about. It happening perhaps
on an even more horrific scale with Deep Seek or
other AI platforms which we're told in the works for
us from China, and that is this ability to absolutely
(14:25):
intravenously feed their narratives, their line, their agenda into the
heads of people who have no idea that it's even
being taken aboard, so preliminally or otherwise, Again the rhetorical question,
what could go wrong with that? We saw it going wrong,
as you've indicated on a couple of occasions, plus not
(14:48):
least in these well in some cases, demonstrations, in other
cases riots really on college campuses in support of the
Chinese Communist parties friends in Hamas.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Yes, if we want to know why there's been such
a fast spread of virulent anti Semitism in America over
the last couple of years, you can thank TikTok for that. Now,
of course there are other reasons, but TikTok has mightily
contributed to that. And this is the Communist Party's view.
That is, in the United States. China's curation algorithms in
(15:25):
TikTok and some newer apps are the most advanced in
the world. They're very effective. They know what your kid
wants to see, they know what your kid doesn't want
to see. They deliver this information and they're very good
at it. And they've got to remember that. In the
first Trump term, just at the end, when Trump was
(15:46):
trying to force a sale of TikTok to an American party,
that deals cratered, not over money, which is where most
deals fail. But it failed over the control of the
curation algorithm. China wasn't willing to give it up. Now,
China has used that algorithm, as I mentioned, to for
men violence on American streets, federal crime, active war. We
(16:08):
have the right to not only expropriate it, which we
can axpropriate any foreign asset in the US, we have
a right to confiscate it, in other words, take it
without compensation. So when President Trump says we need China's
approval for a sale, I don't think so. I think
that we apply American law, we start defending our country,
and we get serious about China.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
It's part of the larger urgent need to get serious
about China. And that's that's what I was trying to
get at at the beginning of my commentary Gordon, again,
informed by so much that I've learned from you. I
mean this notion that it's just about economics, that if
we just you know, compete with them and treat them
(16:54):
as economic competitors, that you know, will make them more
like us, or we'll get along in other ways. It
ain't so. And I'm kind of perplexed because, as I said,
we had the Congress of the United States, overwhelmingly on
(17:15):
bipartisan basis in both houses, saying we have to remove
TikTok from the control of the Chinese Communist Party. We
had Joe Biden signed that into law. We had a
unanimous Supreme Court of the United States saying it's constitutional
to do that. It's a national security imperative. And we
(17:38):
have Donald Trump, who has been as robust as any
president in memory about the threat from the Chinese Communist Party,
now doing something you've described as an illegal nullification of
the law and a piece that you published at Gatestone.
And I don't know whether this is a temporary, you know,
(18:01):
thing that he will you know, move past inevitably and
in due course. But it is unsettling that he not
only has you know, decided to put all this on
pause somehow, but he also had the CEO of TikTok
in a you know, privileged place at his inauguration. What
(18:24):
do you make of all that?
Speaker 2 (18:27):
I don't know what to make of it. If you
look at the Trump's Trump's activities and pronouncements so far
as president, we have to be extremely concerned.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
You know.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
It's not only wanting to go to China in the
first hundred days to strike a grand bargain, and it's
not only inviting Siegen Ping to the inauguration, which he
didn't come, the Vice president came. But it is this
action of directing the Attorney General not to enforce the
congressional Act that you mentioned, the Protecting Americans from Foreign
(19:05):
Adversary Controlled Applications Act. So this is, as you say, disturbing.
Now I have friends who are not in the administration,
but who are close to them, who said that Trump
really knows how serious the China threat is. He's actually
working on it, and all of this is sort of
(19:25):
like a Jedi mind trick on the Chinese. I hope
that's true. But as Axio said, he's gone soft on China,
and we need to make sure that we hold him
to that.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
We do. Indeed, Gordon, amiss, and hold the thought. We're
going to come right back with more than an extended
conversation with Gordon Chang. Stay tuned for it. Please welcome back.
(20:06):
Gordon Chang is in the house. I'm very pleased to say,
for a bit further and much more in depth conversation
than we sometimes are able to impose upon him. Gordon,
thank you for being generous with your time. I did
want to explore with you some of the signals being
sent at the moment you alluded to them in a
(20:26):
moment ago in sort of general the idea of going
to Beijing for one hundred day, you know, a grand
bargain negotiating exercise by the president. You talked about inviting
Ji to come to the inauguration and so on. What
I'd like to do is drilled down a little bit
(20:48):
further on some of the signals that are being sent
about Taiwan, notably by a man who is sitting pretty
close to the President's right hand. It appears Elon Musk
and the Gates a piece you challenged his thinking about Taiwan,
and I'd be interested in your thoughts about whether the
(21:08):
emerging evidence suggests it's reflective of a problematic attitude by
the president as well well.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Elon Musk has this view that Taiwan is part of China,
and really what we're doing is it would be a
part of the People's Republic were it not for the
US Navy, and that is wrong. You know, Elon Musk
can say we should give Taiwan to China, but he
(21:37):
can't change the facts. And the facts are that no
Chinese regime has ever held indisputable sovereignty to the island
of Taiwan. And that's a long historical discussion. One of
my favorite topics. I won't bore you with it, but
the point here is that the Qing dynasty, which for
(21:59):
a very period actually did rule some part of Taiwan,
was not considered Chinese, and Shan Kai Chek, who was
Chinese who did rule all of Taiwan, was not given
sovereignty by the nineteen fifty one San Francisco Treaty, which
ended and settled most of the legal disputes from World
War Two in Asia. So Elon Musk is wrong. And
(22:22):
by the way, the people in Taiwan, they love China,
but they don't believe that they are Chinese. And we
have seen this consistently from self identification survey to self
identification survey. They overwhelmingly believe that they're Taiwanese, not Chinese.
And so Elon Musk can say, yeah, we don't care
about it, we'll turn our backs, we'll be craven, but
(22:46):
he has to admit what he is doing because his
facts are one hundred percent, one hundred percent wrong.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
This is a very helpful bit of historical level setting.
Gordon and I have to say that there's a lot
of confusion on that point. So we desperately need the
kind of authority you're bringing to this. In addition to
the fact that he may be wrong just on the
(23:16):
merits of the case, it certainly seems as though it
might have something to do with the fact that he
is deeply involved with the Chinese Communist Party in his businesses,
particularly Tesla in China. No, and to what extent is
that in your assessment, Gordon coloring perhaps not only his
(23:41):
own interests and attitudes, but also the kind of advice
or influence that he's exercising with President Trump.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
Yeah, I'm not on in Elon Musk's mind and I'm
not part of the administration. They don't talk to me,
so I can't answer what exactly is going on, but
I can state the facts and that Tesla is dependent
on China. It has his gigafactory in Shanghai. It's going
to be making batteries there. And we've got to be concerned,
(24:14):
as the Senate has been concerned, that China's leverage over
Elon Musk because of Tesla will affect the way Elon
Musk manages SpaceX, because if we get back to the Moon,
or if we go to Mars or any of those things,
it will be primarily because of SpaceX won't be NASE,
won't be blue origin. So this is a national security
(24:37):
matter which we should have a discussion of. And as
I mentioned, the Senate has actually Senate committees have actually
discussed this very issue concern about China's leverage over elon Musk.
You know, the fact that he says Musk says things
which we just talked about in terms of China's sovereignty
(24:59):
over time, that's a real concern. So, as I said,
I'm not in his mind, but we all can see
the facts.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
Gordon, I'm sorry to say that it appears as though
there are other people that are entering the administration at
various levels that are similarly of the view that Taiwan
is not our problem, that basically we need to avoid
conflict with the Chinese at all costs, and that if
(25:32):
we simply engage more with them in trade, particularly that
we will ameliorate their sense that we are the enemy
and they need to have a military build up to
counter us, and so on. Could you just do a
little bit of a sanity check on this idea. And
I want to specifically mention that among those who have
(25:54):
been espousing it is a guy who has been staffing
the the Trump Defense Department by the name of Dan Caldwell,
formerly of the Coke Family Enterprise, and another alumnus of
that group, namely John Andrew Byers, who is the new
(26:18):
Deputy Assistant Secretary for South and Southeast Asia. I don't
think China is specifically in his portfolio, but obviously his
influence would be felt on our policies towards the region.
Could you just explicate for us where this inevitably takes you,
(26:38):
if this becomes the kind of policy approach that President Trump,
despite his past record, despite I think his body of
work on the danger that we face from the Chinese
Communist Party, is now embracing.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
Well, it takes us perhaps to the World War three.
And let me go back up for a moment. You know,
Trump's foreign policy, as we're starting to see it focuses
on the Western hemisphere. I don't think he's that interested
in any other part of the world. And yes, it
is welcome that he is now paying attention to Panama Canal,
(27:17):
for instance, and all sorts of things. It doesn't mean
you abandon the rest of the world. And what we're
hearing people right now are too embarrassed to say that
they're engagers, but they do now talk about restraint, and
so I guess we can call them the restrainers. The
problem is that this is taking us to a place
(27:39):
where it is going to allow the world's worst elements,
in other words, China and Russia from absorbing large portions
of the globe. You know, we saw this in the
nineteen thirties where Britain and France were so much more
powerful than the Third Reich. But restrain themselves. For instance,
they restrain themselves eighteen thirty six, where they allowed the
(28:01):
remilitarization of the Rhineland and violation of the Versailles Treaty.
They didn't do anything when Hitler absorbed Austria in nineteen
thirty eight. In nineteen thirty eight. Later on they had
the Munich Pack, and they allowed Hitler to violate the
Munich Pack by taking the parts of Czechoslovakia that were
supposed to be outside the Third Reich. So that was
(28:24):
World War Two, and we're seeing essentially the same thing
happen right now. If we allowed China to take Taiwan,
parts of Philippines, Japan, whatever, and we allowed Vladimir Putin
to absorb Ukraine. That's World War three. Right now. We
have wars in Ukraine, we have insurgencies in North Africa
(28:45):
that looked like wars. We got the war in the
Middle East. You add one more war in East Asia,
and that is World War three. And I don't want
to exaggerate it, but Frank that really looks like where
we're going now. I hope that Trump has more sense
than that. But clearly, when you look at, for instance,
the evolution of the thought of people who were very
(29:08):
pro Taiwan who have gone into the administration, who have
now gone soft on the issue, we got to be
extremely concerned.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
Good. I can't overstate the importance of what you've just said. This.
I call it not restraint, I call it retreat. And
the impact that has on totalitarian thugs, whether it's Adolf
Hitler or whether it's Joseph Stalin or whether it's Jijingping,
(29:38):
is absolutely predictable. They see a vacuum of power, they
will fill it, and they will fill it to the
maximum degree they can at our expense, not just the
freedom loving people of Taiwan or others. And I guess
the thing that I'm so concerned about, as obviously are you,
(29:58):
is that what I've called world war world War three,
world War g He's already underway. It's just a question
now does it expand still further to you know, our
mortal peril, both in East Asia and quite probably here.
(30:21):
And it need not be that way. If we are
signaling robustly as Donald Trump has, I think on the
campaign trail, among other places, we would be doing to
the Chinese Communist Party. Let me ask you about one
other thing quickly, A Gordon. We've got about a minute.
President Trump said in his remarks I believe right after
his inaugural address, well he's still up in the capital,
(30:44):
to a bunch of supporters, that he had had a
very good conversation with Vladimir Putin a while back about
getting into some new parley. Arms control, I guess is
what they're calling. It talks about denuclearizing the arsenals of
Russia and the United States. But also he indicated that
(31:07):
China was on board with us. Do you thirty seconds,
do you see any evidence of that, sir?
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Extremely little China has been adamant about not joining arms
controlled discussions, and they're now adding basically conditions that would
make arms controlled discussions impossible. They want the United States
and Russia to reduce the arsenals before they even start
talking to China.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
So I think that's been their historic position, but they're
not deviating from it.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
Is the point, yeah, this is There are all sorts
of good things in the world you can't accomplish.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
This is one of them. Amen to Gordon, Thank you
for so much. Come back to us soon if you would,
God blessed, we'll be right back. Folks to stay too.
(32:09):
Welcome back, and a very special welcome to my favorite
co host. Her name is Dede Logison. She is the
executive director of Save the Persecuted Christians, wonderful organization I'm
proud to be president of and to each week help
educate us about what is happening to the most heavily
(32:34):
persecuted population on the planet and the largest persecuted population
on the planet for that matter, namely Christians around the world.
She is kind enough to bring to our program each
week a special guest, and we have a very special
(32:54):
one today. Introduce him if you would.
Speaker 3 (33:00):
Thanks Frank. We have worked long and hard with Mattias Pertula,
who is the executive director of Save Armenia. Many people
do not really even know where Armenia is. It's in
the Caucuses, you know, north of Iran, east of Turkey,
(33:22):
west of Azerbaijan, and it's really stuck in the middle.
But it is the world's first Christian nation, having converted
to Christianity as a nation in three hundred and one AD.
So we're happy to have Mattias here with us. We
work together on elevating the issues facing Armenia. Mattias tell
(33:45):
us a little bit about Armenia and the threats that
they are facing, the Christians there are facing.
Speaker 4 (33:51):
Sure, so then not to belabor too much on this point,
but you know, obviously the first Christian country in the world.
But you know, over the last three years or so,
President Aliev of Azerbaijan, alongside with Turkey, have really ramped
up the pressure on Armenia on a number of different ways,
most recently in twenty twenty three in September, where Aliev
(34:16):
and his military invaded a region known as Nagarno Karabak.
This is an Armenian Christian region and has been Armenian
Christian for literally since Christ walked the earth or in
those days, and covered in churches and cemeteries of Christian
Armenian heritage, all of which is under threat now by
(34:38):
President Aliev in his military and destroying these churches and
these cemeteries. There's another enclave to the west of Armenia
known as Nanichevan, and this is another area where the Asis.
They control this region, but they have also ethnically cleansed
that region over the years, to the point that we've
(35:00):
heard numbers that they have destroyed more churches, more holy
sides than Isis has destroyed in their rampays throughout the
Middle Eaged Miast.
Speaker 3 (35:11):
That is just so disturbing to hear about these ancient,
many of them going back centuries, historic churches being raised.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
To the ground.
Speaker 3 (35:24):
And online you can see the Jihattists because we have
the Turkish Islamis in Azerbaijan who are brothers to the
Turks in Turkey and they'd like to go right across
Armenia and open up a trade route. So there's a
(35:44):
lot of rhetoric coming from both leaders and very disturbing.
All of this started under the cover of COVID in
twenty twenty when they attacked when Azerbaijan attacked Nigerna Kara
bakh Uh, and we brought in September a number of
(36:04):
witnesses from the Nigerna Karabak region, refugees from there who
are now living in Armenia proper. Tell us a little
bit more about their stories and and and what they're experiencing.
Speaker 4 (36:19):
Now, Yeah, some of the witnesses that we are instance
brought in September, One of them really touched my heart.
Her sister was captured by the Azaris, raped, gang, raped,
and mutilated for weeks on end. And to take it
beyond that, they celebrated these actions publicly on various social
(36:44):
media channels, celebrating how they had overcome this and this
woman and so on, and just built the most horrific
things you could possibly imagine to put a person through.
The other individuals we had was a father who ran
a monastery in Nagarno Karabak that was bombed. One of
the ladies that was joining us was with him when
(37:06):
that area was being bombed and she lost her oldest
child in that bombing. Indiscriminate targeting of civilian areas by
the Asis is just absolutely horrendous. We need what we've
been trying to do is get the word out on
all these stories because this conflict that just didn't grab
enough attention. Most of the world ignored. There was a
(37:28):
lot going on, certainly and rightfully so with everything that
Israel was dealing with Hamas and so on. But these
stories need to get told and this issue needs more attention.
Speaker 3 (37:38):
So yeah, next week at the International Religious Freedom Summit
will be bringing Armenian witnesses and experts. Again, what do
you hope for the IRF Summit, the International Religious Freedom Summit.
Speaker 4 (37:54):
I am very hopeful that during this week this issue
is going to get elevated like never before and they
will get their due do notoriety and support that they
need in this really, really critical time. As you mentioned,
the rhetoric has been building up again from President Aliev,
and usually this kind of heinous rhetoric from this leader
(38:18):
precedes potential military incursions or more military interaction against Armenia.
So we need to be very watchful of this and
this issue needs to be on the radars all decision
makers and DC advocates and international religious freedom groups working
together in concerts.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
Yes, we have to take a short break here, just
a moment. I wanted just to add to what you've
said and set up further conversation about this on the
other side, and that is unfortunately, we're on notice already
from the Azaris and the Turks for that matter, that
(38:57):
they intend to do to our Menia what they've done
recently to nigoona carba or outside as it's called. And
so it is now incumbent upon us, and I hope
the International Religious Freedom Summit will provide the vehicle that
(39:17):
you're talking about to push back very aggressively with the
help of the Trump administration on this idea, because I
think you're absolutely right. If past is prelude, what they're
doing right now is cycling up for the next act
of genocide against Christians. It must be blocked. We'll be
(39:40):
right back with more with did Logison Metees Bertilla right
after this welcome back. We are in the midst of
(40:08):
my favorite segment of the week. I think that is
the one I share with our friend and colleague D. D. Logison,
save the Persecuted Christians segment. We're visiting with Mattias Peter,
a man who is in the forefront of the fight
to avoid further persecution and indeed genocide against Christians in
(40:31):
Armenia at the hands of Azerbaijan and Turkey, and we
were talking before the break a little bit, Mattias, could
you just read us in a little bit more detail
on what the what the Azaries their allies have been
saying about their plans for Armenia and what Trump administration
(40:55):
has been saying about it as well.
Speaker 4 (40:57):
Yes, absolutely happy to so a little bit of context here.
Turkey is Azerbaijan's closest ally. They are responsible for modernizing
Azerbaijan's military up to NATO standards, as we all know,
Turkey's a NATO ally. But recently in terms of rhetoric
of what the Aliv regime has been saying, now they're
calling Armenia this fascist regime and it needs to be removed.
(41:21):
These Nazis need to be removed, which is complete you know,
I don't need to complete bogus in this sense. It's
all just political rhetoric, ramping up the international community and
trying to create some sort of public cover as to
why they want to be attacked, why they want to
be going back into Armenia, and trying to justify their actions.
(41:44):
The reality is that Aliev and Azerbaijan have been working
very closely with Turkey to wanting to eradicate Armenia completely
from the region. In fact, there's even reports of secret
projects and where they are renaming Armenian cities into Azerbaijani
(42:05):
names and so on. In fact, they even call Armenia
the Western Azerbaijan, if you can believe that. So the
intentions are quite clear on what their long term game is.
They want to connect the two countries Turkey and Azerbaijan,
and Armenia is standing in the middle.
Speaker 1 (42:22):
And the idea would be to essentially take at least
part of it, if not all of it too, if
not all of it connection And what would that mean
for Christians? Is there any doubt in your mind that
this would be in fact violent and very very genocidal
in character.
Speaker 4 (42:41):
Well, if you look at the track record of Nagarno Karabak,
it will be very violent. You know, scores of people
have died in that I do not think the level
of vitriol against the Armenian Christians from Azerbaijan is at
that level of genocidal talk. It will create a massive
(43:01):
humanity humanitarian disaster in the region. Forced the removal of
Armenian Christians from that region, which they've inhabited for hundreds
and thousands of years. It will be a disastrous, disastrous
situation for that region.
Speaker 1 (43:18):
And of course, the Turks did engage in genocide against
the Yes, Christians in the of course of World War One.
Let's talk about Donald Trump. Did he during his campaign?
Of course he was vocally concerned about the Armenian situation.
Give us a sense of what he's promised and what
(43:41):
we expect will come from his administration.
Speaker 3 (43:44):
Now, Yeah, so that President Trump was, as you said,
tweeting about Armenia just at the end of his campaign,
which was a and that was in preparation for COP
twenty nine, in which Azerbaijan was elevated after ethnically cleansing
Nigorno Kara Bak to host this World conference on climate
(44:08):
and elevated on the world stage, much to just the
chagrin of human rights advocates like ourselves who fought to
boycott back who and continue to press that message that
the world should not stand with Azerbaijean or partner with
them as they're committing acts of genocide against their neighbors.
(44:30):
So President Trump has yeah, and threatening so much worse.
So President Trump has been vocal on this, and I
think that he is going to not waive the Section
nine oh seven sanctions which bar military sales to Azerbaijean.
(44:50):
This Senate blocked that last year for fiscal year twenty
four and twenty five, but it didn't pass through. Yeah,
but it didn't pass through Congress, and so this Every
president since those have been put in place has waived
those sanctions. But I don't think President Trump is going
to sell military arms into Azerbaijan, knowing what's a foot
(45:15):
with Armenia.
Speaker 4 (45:17):
What are your thoughts on that, Mattias, Well, certainly my hopes,
I mean my hopes aligned with what Didi has said.
The tweet or the post that Donald Trump put out
in the campaign was very pointed, and he put it
in a way that highlighted the one hundred and twenty thousand
Christians that were forcefully removed from Nagarnal Karbak. He made
(45:40):
it very very specific, and I think he means business.
If we know Donald Trump, he means business and he
means to follow through with what his promises are. So
I from my perspective, I'm very hopeful to see the
pressure put on Azerbaijan and to really brings the ability
(46:00):
and peace into that region. The Armenians one piece, the
Armenian Christians one piece. They're ready to sign peace deals yesterday,
the day before. The Ali regime is the one that
continues to come up with bogus excuses as to why
they cannot sign and make ridiculous demands of the Armenian government.
Speaker 1 (46:21):
Holding.
Speaker 3 (46:23):
Yes, they're holding prisoners of conscience in Azerbaijan.
Speaker 1 (46:28):
We've only got a minute left. I did want to
just add that another consideration for President Trump, I would
hope would be the fact that Turkey is actively engaged
in genocidal activities elsewhere, notably in Syria at the moment
against Kurds and Christians were told your insights into that problem.
Speaker 4 (46:48):
Turkey needs to be held to account. Finally, absolutely, and
I don't think that the Trump administration is ignorant about
what the Turkey's Turkish ambitions are and they realize full
well what Urduwan is attempting to do in the region.
They want to project themselves as the great power in
that region. Now's the time for Donald Trump and for
(47:10):
this administration to really put the pressure on Turkey, just
the way they did with Andrew Brunson when he was
being held in prison. That's the same thing that needs
to happen.
Speaker 1 (47:21):
We have to leave it at that. I just want
to conclude by saying that is one of the things
that we say the persecuted Christians are very actively championing,
and that is hold the persecutors accountable, penalize them for
what they're doing to great disincentives to it. Thank you
both for your great work. Keep it up. We'll look
forward to a report after the summit. God bless you,
(47:42):
God bless all the well. I hope you'll come back
to us next time, and until then you will go
forth and multiply
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