May 27, 2021 • 32 mins
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, fam I'm Jada Pinkett Smith and this is the
Red Table Pop podcast, all your favorite episodes from the
Facebook watch show in audio, produced by Westbrook Audio and
I Heart Radio. Please don't forget to rate and review
on Apple Podcasts. I've been feeling very stressed, very stressed.
You've been feeling stressed by just thinking about this conversation today,
(00:24):
being so concerned about choosing the right words, saying the
right thing, but still being able to speak authentically, authentically.
I get it. This is a really tough subject. Here's
the hard truth. There's real animosity between blacks and Asians,
and that has really talked about brazen attacks against Asian Americans.
(00:46):
The man walked up and started hitting her in the face.
We want to warn you the videos are graphic. The
recent surge of hay crumbs against Asian Americans. I've seen
my grandma get yelled at your Asians. So you're a
virus has illuminate needed a painful divide between the black
and Asian American communities. You're seeing my skin as dirty.
Asian people just want to hang out with Asian people only.
(01:08):
Anti blackness is rooted in our culture. That's very subtle.
But is very deeply rooted. Reports of Blacks attacking Asians
have fed the tension that goes back decades. In Black
fifteen year old name Latasha Harlans was shot and killed
by Korean grocer during an argument over a bottle of
(01:29):
orange juice. The store owner was convicted of voluntary manslaughter
but got no jail time. When justice wasn't served, outrage exploded,
fueling the LA riots. The recent increase in social injustices
has called for a racial reckoning for Black and Asian Americans.
(01:52):
My perspective is the fact that we're both minorities. I
feel like, obviously we come from very different cultures, but
it's hard for me to believe that other things could
get in the way of us having a common ground.
I guess what I need to understand is where does
their animosity for us come from? Because that's what it
feels like. It feels like that they have come into
(02:14):
our communities, taken over our stores, taken over the hair
and nail industry, and really blocked us from being able
to thrive in that industry because we're coming into those stores,
you know, we're getting our hair and nails done, and
what are they giving back to the community, and when
(02:35):
we come into those environments and patronize their businesses, we're
not even treated with respect and kindness. I've had some
very volatile and um passionate discussions with family members and friends,
and most of my friends feel like I don't care.
(02:55):
I don't care. I don't have the bandwidth or the
interests because they don't care about about us and they
don't treat us with respect. So I don't care about
anything that they're talking about. I'm worried about what's happening
with my people, you know, because we you know, we
have our own struggle. Yeah, and that's the majority. That
is the majority, You're right, So it's very difficult for
(03:17):
there to be any any real concerned I don't even
feel like they want our help. Now. I may hear
something different from the scholars, but from the average person,
do they care? Are they interested in a relationship with me?
I just had an experience in the airport where I'm
standing in line waiting for coffee, and I had a
(03:39):
whole conversation going A white man my age came behind
me stud in line. We started having a conversation. A
young couple in front of me, white had a conversation.
I've never had an Asian person come up to me
that I didn't know to start a conversation, to speak
to me, to give me eye contact, and anyway, that's
(03:59):
also a cultural things. Well, it is cultural. But when
I go on vacation and I go to a foreign country,
I make it my business to try to be conscious
of the culture there so that I can act accordingly. Right,
So I think that we're owed some of that when
(04:19):
you come to our country and you start businesses, that's
just even good business practice to treat your patrons with
respect and care, like that's just common sense, right, But
we don't feel like we we get that. And I
also recognize that it's a very limited exposure that we
have with the community. They're so separate, that's the only
(04:43):
interaction that we really have, and the cultures are so
crastically different. Yeah, that's what I've come to understand. But
I hear you. I think there's a lot of misunderstandings culturally.
The biggest misconception is that Asian is just Asian, Vietnamese, Chinese, Japanese, Filipino,
(05:05):
like you just throw them all in one. But they're
also different, so different but various cultures, right, it's difficult
to distinguish one from the other sometimes too not if
you pay attention. You pay attention. For me, it's the
feeling of or the lack of reciprocity, right, And it's
a feeling that like, I'm not going to go out
(05:28):
of my way to support and help someone if I
don't even have the feeling that they even want my support.
Here's the thing, and I hear you, and I think
one of the biggest misconceptions that we have in this
fight as a whole is that it's about this reciprocity situation, right,
And I get that. I totally understand that, and of
course we want to feel as though there's some exchange,
(05:50):
but at the end of the day, what we can
allow is hate of any kind to exist. I hear
this conversation endlessly. They didn't do that, so why should
I have to do this? And they didn't do that,
so I did this. And it's really hard because we
do feel hurt, and we feel neglected, may exactly overlooked,
(06:10):
and we feel not seen. I get all of that,
and that's what makes it so difficult because I understand,
but I also know there's nothing in the world that
makes a woman sixty five years old in New York
City from the Philippines getting beat up by a man
and nobody helps. That makes no sense whatsoever. Hate his hate.
(06:32):
I agree, and I think I think people feel terrible
about that. But I just don't feel like, you know,
there's no real um, there's nothing in us that makes
us stand up and feel like we really want to
come to Well, here's the thing. Then why should we
expect that from white people? Because that's how white people feel.
(06:53):
White people feel like, that's not my problem, that's your problem. Okay, yeah,
so we brought you guys over here. Okay, whatever, blah
blah blah blah blah, you figure it out. That's on you.
That's exactly how white people feel about our struggles, you know.
And so that's what I'm saying. The cycle. It's the cycle,
and I get it. Listen, It's like we're asking you
(07:14):
to care because we're committing we have out of compassion
for humanity. I understand in the community. What makes it
so difficult that we are tired. We're tired always having
to put it aside, take the hot road all that.
So when we decided to bring this intense topic to
the table. There were two people we wanted to have here.
(07:37):
Both have devoted their careers to taking on tough subjects.
Award winning journalists Lisa Laying is fighting on the front
lines to stop Asian hate. Lisa and her family have
received numerous death threats since the increase of hate crimes
on the A A p I community. One of the
smartest people I know, Dr Michael Eric Dyson, is a
(07:58):
leading voice on black history and culture. This ordained preacher, professor,
and author of seven New York Times bestsellers, is known
for breaking down difficult topics. Let's get to let's get
to it. This is a really tough subject and attend time. Yeah,
and so we just wanted to get some education just
(08:18):
around the tensions between blacks and Asians. How did they
get this way? One of the first things any immigrant
group learns when they come to America who the bottom
of the totem pole is. I don't care who you are,
black people, right, the darker people are at the bottom
of the totem pole when immigrants come over here and
they do they recognize this structure, right, or Whites are
(08:41):
at the top and blacks are at the bottom. So
often when immigrants from Asia come to this country with nothing,
they have this aspiration of being able to achieve some
semblance of the American dream. And what does that look like?
It looks white, right, But everyone is being dehumanized, right
because everyone is trying to rise up that ladder where
in Los Angeles, And we think about Latasha Harlan's right,
(09:03):
that was a touch stone, like see, that's what they
do to us, the history of anti blackness within Asian communities, that,
along with the Rodney King, this was a signal moment.
I don't know a single Asian person who isn't horrified
still to this day about that case. I truly don't.
And that's the thing to understand that the people it
(09:24):
horrified are not just black, and the people it horrified
are many Asian brothers and sisters who saw that, who
felt that it was a horrible misrepresentation of who they
are as a people. And here's the thing. The so
called negative thing that any particular group does is seen
as representative of that group. Black people have a right
(09:44):
to feel hurt and injured by the fact that everywhere
in this world, to be darker is to be the humanized,
and there's no question about that, which means that we
should be especially careful not to reproduce that same herb
to other groups when that tension starts to to brew.
(10:06):
No one, our communities aren't the ones that are benefiting
from it, not at all. For black people to be
demonizing Asian brothers and sisters. What the Wuhan flu? The
Chinese flu? Who wins white supremacists? So it hits us
against each other. And that exact idea of pitting minorities
against each other is the most perfect path towards domination.
(10:29):
I mean, white supremacy is what we're not talking about
individual white brothers and sisters. We're talking about the conscious
or unconscious belief in the inherent inferiority of some and
the superiority above. And I think that's the thing. I
think there's a lot of people in our community specifically,
who don't recognize the white supremacy construct that we're falling into.
(10:49):
You know, that's the thing, like how you just broke
that down, but you've been breaking it down. It's like
I didn't really have the words. You know, you're come
into red table. I got to bring my a game.
That's exactly it. But it's got power. But that's what's
ruining and ruling it. And it also is stoking fear
(11:11):
amongst people whose livelihood and lives and the way they've
always known things feels threatened. And that's the thing about
this period right now, and white people are starting to recognize, well,
I really had no idea. What's interesting, though, the ingenuity
of white supremacy is it don't matter who's in control
as long as the system is operating. So you could
(11:32):
have a black head of Department of Housing under the
Trump administration and you still gonna have white supremacist ideology
being pumped through that black mouth and body. The ingenuity
of white supremacy is it doesn't demand a white body
to be efficacious and effect. That's a very important point. Basic.
Have you personally felt the surge of animosity that is happening.
(11:58):
I have been teased and been on the receiving end
of the aggressions my whole life. But over the last year,
the level of vitriol and just the hatred that is
expressed has been really unnerving. I mean, even people wishing
harm on my own children because we brought the coronavirus
(12:18):
to this country, so absolutely, but it kills me that
so many of our Asian elders and mothers and children
are being attacked so senselessly for no reason. At this table,
we always want to hear from you, so check this out.
Recently Stop Asian Hate posts on our Red Table Talk,
(12:39):
Instagram and Facebook page confirmed this steep divide. We received
so many comments and responses like these that relaid frustration, anger,
and pain. I'm supposed to care about stop Asian hate.
I'm supposed to care about what's happening to Asian people.
They're rude, did you respectful in their racist if you
(13:04):
ask me? Rushing us out their stores, following us around,
watching us every move like we're gonna rob the whole store,
but they don't mind taking them black dollars, and they
didn't mind opening up these businesses in our neighborhoods. They
(13:24):
have never helped me in mind do anything, So why
would I jump on some stop Asian hate bandway? That
was the Jara te And it was so deep that
there were lots of posts that had to be pulled,
that's how offensive they were. How would you address that?
(13:47):
You know, I think it's really easy to say things
like well, this black person did something to me, and
this nail songer or this Asian person disrespected me. Those
are individual experiences and that can't categorize who. That's not
the totality. They are so diverse. I mean, there are
over twenty different Asian cultures living in this country, with
(14:10):
different languages, different traditions, and frankly, not only do I
know very little about being Thai or Laotian, or Cambodian
or Vietnamese, I don't even know the first thing about
being Chinese because I'm not from China. I'm from America.
And this sister, bless her heart, I don't doubt her hard.
I don't doubt the fact that this is her experience.
I don't want to dis black people who have been mistreated.
(14:32):
I'm not saying there are no rude Asian people in
stores that have done exactly what this woman said. But
here's the question. I would say this to black people
when we say this, and God bless this woman right
wife have been saying that forever about us. You know,
I don't mind. But these black people they're just rude,
They're loud, you can't get them to work on time.
(14:52):
They never come prepared, they always got excuses, on and
on and on. Is that a large enough sample size
for you to determined this is the fundamental characteristic of
Asian brothers and sisters. Or if we're gonna get real
ugly about it, how many black people have stolen from them?
That their attitudes have been misshapen by the behavior of
(15:16):
certain black people, And you're gonna go, wait a minute,
most black people ain't ripping you off. Most black people right,
So I would ask them, I understand your pain, but
don't draw conclusions based on your limited sample side because
white folks have been doing that forever. Jim was based
on that. White supremacy is based on that. You don't
want all black people being judged by your knuckle head cousin.
(15:37):
How do you get beyond that when that is the
only experience that you have, when your experience is so limited,
because that's too experience interacting with the Asian community is
so freaking limited. White focusing the same thing. We don't
know no negroes, They don't live next door to us.
(15:57):
All I see is what I see on a rap video.
But I tell people read a book, Uh, go Google,
but look at some darned YouTube. It ain't that hard.
So you are ignorant, but you're responsible for your ignorance.
So when we say we don't have any experience with
you know, hey, the only Asian person I know is
(16:18):
the person you know in the nails a line of light,
Well then we don't want black people judge by what
we think happens with the black person at McDonald's and wife, folk, girl,
do you want them? We ain't got no fried If
so called pooky and so called is the litmus test
for how people judge. Now, my point is stereotype as
(16:39):
a lazy person's way of engaging the other. So have
a more complicated, nuanced perspective. We gently encourage her, ma'am,
just like I do with white folks when I challenged
them with humor or acerbic, intense rhetoric aimed at their
colossal indignity, that you've got to just say, open up
(17:00):
a little bit, open your heart. Do you want to
be judged by the worst things you've done? Do you
want to be judged about how black people have been
said to treat white folks? Cause I get letters every
day and they're going, you up here talking about this,
and I don't deny that these white people have had
this experience that they've seen black people do X, Y
and Z right there saying I saw this, this is
in my store. I hired this many black people. Every
(17:22):
black person I hired acted like this. So they got
a sample too. It ain't scientific, but they got a
pole too. So we're gonna put their bigoted pole against
your biggoted pole. Let's do something different. Let's draw back
and see that there's our different experiences, different peoples. And
if we judge people based upon the worst of what
they do or the worst of how they behave or
on one day, have you judged them over space and time?
(17:45):
Did you have a conversation with them, Did you talk
to them about where they come from? Have you spoken right?
In other words, have you treated them the way you
want to be treated. If you want an Asian person
to speak to you, have you ever spoken to them?
So my point is that when we get into the
politics of reciprocity and knowledge, it's not just about read
a book, it's not just about no more. I recommend
all that, but open up your perspective, be a bit fair,
(18:07):
and don't do the same things I think we need
to have Michael Eric Dyson like pumped into everyone's It
just doesn't sound satisfying to say that to that woman.
Get a book and read your history. And it's the
human problem to Yeah, and I know it's hard, but
(18:28):
it's also like, maybe try to expand your heart a
little bit and your mind just a little bit. How
about that. You can't reduce the world to your perspective.
And yet at the same time, your perspective is so
critical of how you see the world. So it is
to your advantage to continue to expand. Okay, but it
is not the onus on the Asian community to do
(18:51):
the same when it comes to us. And I would
say the same thing to Asian people who have a
myampic view black people. You know, have you taken the
time when you moved into this community, did you read
about the history, did you get to know people, did
you invest? Did you hire people from the community and
give them opportunities? I do think it's incumbent upon all
(19:13):
of us. I mean, if we don't start functioning that way,
this is all headed down. And you raise a great
point because part of the investment of the model minority
is that it is insulated Asian community. It helps, but
It also hurts because that honorary white status allows you
to derive a certain kind of benefit from being quiet,
(19:35):
from not speaking of from not making noise. How open, Lisa,
do you believe that the Asian community is too educating
themselves around the history of the relationship between black people
and Asian people, but just black people in general, you know,
just having understands, I do actually think that there's a
(19:57):
generational divide in the Asian community. Um, younger Asians were
taught black history, so that's why I think so many
Asian Americans showed up to protest the systemic injustices that
have been directed towards black people this summer. So that's
why it hurts when we hear Asian people have never
(20:19):
stood up for us. So many younger Asians are like,
where is this animosity coming from. There's a history, and
it's there's a reason for it. If our main goal
is to really have some harmony, we have to stop
like inserting ourselves right back in that cycle. And I'm
not making excuses for Asian people, but often there are
language barriers, and there are cultural differences, and as a whole,
(20:44):
Asians aren't the most communicative people around my husband, he's
a Korean American and his parents didn't even tell him
I love you until he was in his forties. So
that's what we're working with here. So typically they're just
not warm and cuddly and friendly. It's not so much
of the not warm and cuddly. It's just not the
most communic to It's not affection, particularly affection. But I
(21:07):
don't think that Asians not approaching you to talk to you.
It's not so much because they're discriminating against you. I mean,
I do think there's a cultural piece to it where
they're probably not even talking to each other that much.
Quite honestly, when we talk about race in this country,
it's through a certain lens, right, it's black and it's white.
Asians have been in this country since two hundreds, right,
(21:29):
long time? Did you read about Asian history in your
textbooks and schools? I mean, I didn't, even when I
hear this aversion and people saying, well, Asian people don't
stand up for our community. Asian Americans don't even know
their own history, you know, because it's not taught in
our schools. If you look at Asian American history in
this country, we can't compare it to what black people
(21:51):
have gone through. Right, Although some Chinese and some films
were actually enslaved, but the Chinese were the only demographic
to ever excluded from being able to immigrate to this
country for decades. Hundred and twenty thousand Japanese rounded into
camps for years. They lost their businesses, they lost their homes.
(22:11):
I also learned that there were lynchings that happened of
lying in the American history, happened in Chinatown exactly. And
I just learned about this. Think about Asian brothers and
sisters the way white folks think about us, and I
think we'd be a bit more compassionate. Tony Morrison said,
on the backs of black people, America has been built,
and we know Asian labor, unrecognized, has provided the opportunity
(22:35):
for America to be what it is. So here is
the tragic irony that we would come to a place
now where we're at each other's next when indeed what
we should be doing is trying to look at the
common enemy of white supremacies that is murking all of us.
I've heard a lot of my Asian peers talking about
aspiring to this level of whiteness and not wanting to
(22:58):
have their original name, Like if their parents call them
their original name and they have friends in the house,
that makes them feel some type of way. Well, I mean,
when you don't know your history, and if whites are
at the top, you can understand why you've are moving
that direct an honorary white exactly. Now, Michael, let me
ask you a question. What do we say to Black
(23:20):
people in the community who feel threatened and feel as
though that the presence of Asians and our community are
stealing livelihood? Why be mad at the Asian brothers and
sisters who came here looking for an opportunity. Don't hate
the player, hate the game. Why do Asian people have
those nail shops? Where could they get them in the
(23:41):
black community? Be mad at white supremacists who denied black
people access to the loans to be able to own
the shops in their own community. And the game at
this point is black people can't get loans. The reason
Asian brothers and sisters are all no shops because they
were able to get loans right and Asians historically haven't
had the opportunities to open their businesses or even live
(24:01):
in some cases in predominantly white communities, so they end
up in communities of color where they're predominantly black people.
And when they do open businesses, it's not so much
that they are trying to discriminate against black people. This
is where they have to open businesses, and often they
don't take the time to understand the historical roots of
(24:22):
where they have set up shops. All they really care about, frankly,
is survival. So this is the thing. So, because I
want to make this really clear, you are basically saying
that it's the construct of white supremacy that makes it
possible that Asians can get those loans. Before weekend broken down.
I just want to make sure that it's clear that's
(24:44):
exactly right. The history of Black cooperation with Asians and
Asian cooperation with blacks is much deeper and more profound
than the kind of bitterness and the freacas we see
going on right now. Asian people, whether black people know
it or not, have been involved in the struggle for
African American freedom from the get go, from the time
that they got here, right, but that history is obscuwer
(25:07):
and what is put forth is they're disrespectful, they don't
like us. We saw a black people side with the
Philippines and the Philippine American War. We saw black folks
with the Vietnam War speak out, and so it is
in the history if you read it, I mean Hector
Woultang Clan. Yeah, the greatest protest movements that we have
(25:31):
put forth have always had the participation of Asian brothers
and sistis. For every story of the tension, there are
so many stories of solidarity those I'm not saying they
haven't done everything you said, But having said that, are
you judging an entire race of people, Vietnamese, Chinese and
(25:52):
Korean based upon your interaction? Was amazing folks who treated
you like crap. That kind of thing is what we've
been fighting in. That's what Martin Luther King, Ella Baker
and Joanne Robinson had been fighting against all of our lives.
We got to do so, Lisa, I want to bring
in somebody who say is one of the smartest people
out there. Korean American writer and am Herst professor Men
(26:16):
Chin Lee. Hello, Hi, Hi. You know, I'm so happy
to be here and thank you for that generous introduction.
I wanted to be here because I think the Red
Table talk is actually a Korean show. I don't know
if you knew that. I love it. I love and
here let me tell you why it's a Korean show
(26:39):
because it's three generations of women of color, and that
is exactly how I grew up. And also, I'm such
a huge fan of Michael Eric Dyson, So hello, professor,
and Lisa Lyn knows how much I love her. I
want to really address to Latasha Harlan situation because that
is a graphic image, but it is a very incomplete image.
(26:59):
There also an image of Euricochiyama cradling the head of
Malcolm X when he was assassinated, and that image has
been on the forefront of my mind always. We can
focus on that one thing in the same way we
can focus on all those horrible videos which the media
has been perpetuating to create greater sense of divide and
for us to buy into the notion that them people
(27:20):
came over here and brought that disease and black people
attacking Asian people in the street. Now here's here's the
use of white supremacy. The disproportioned number of people who
are attacking Asian people in that black but it serves
the narrative that see these criminalized black people who are
out of control, and we have so many gaps in
our knowledge because a white supremacist education prevents us from
(27:41):
knowing about each other and ourselves. It's part of the
veil of ignorance because most of us don't really know
the history. History that's not the part of the story
they want us to know. We need test solidarity is
not just because we want to feel good, but because
we have twelve percent African Americans in this country who
can vote, and then we have Asian Americans, which just
(28:02):
five percent. But we're the fastest growing population of racial
minorities in this country. If we have sevent if we
can get most of us to vote together, what can't
we do? Men, you say that we've been ignoring a
major factor in the Black Asian divide. Can you explain? Yeah,
I really want to talk about this because I come
(28:24):
from a working class background. So one out of four
Asian Americans in New York City lived below the poverty line.
Of all the racial minorities in New York City, the
poorest people are actually Asian Americans. They're struggling of Asian
American elders have language issues, And that's really important to
(28:44):
notify because when we think about the people, let's say,
in those nail salons who could be rude, some of
those people are actually almost like indentured servants. They owe
so much money to the people who brought them into
this country. And those women who are killed in Atlanta,
two of those women live there like nobody wanted them. Yeah. So,
(29:04):
I mean, I asked for compassion, But if you don't
feel like giving compassion, that's okay. I get it. It's
true if you don't have it in you, if you're
too exhausted, it's like you've been fighting this fight. I
get it. But before you make such a bold assertion
to refuse, just take the time to understand some of
those data points that engine just conveyed. And it's a
(29:27):
pretty bold stance to take, I think. So. Yeah, I
guess at the end of the day, it really is about, like,
having these conversations, do you feel like you got enlightened
in a certain because I know I hadsolutely absolutely. I
just really really started listening and thinking about my own
limited experience, and then you hear yourself, don't And I
(29:48):
hear myself because sometimes you hear you go like, oh,
is that mean? Like did I really just say that?
But I do understand that we are as a community
so traumatized right now, it's just hard for us to
feel that compassion. These conversations are hard, they're painful, but
they're so essential. As long as we continue to perpetuate
(30:09):
these tensions and aggressions against one another, we will continue
to spiral down. And that's why we need each other.
I mean, I need you and you need me, And
this is a fight that we're all in together. This
is life and death at this point. Absolutely ela out
of many one, when we do that, we got a
(30:31):
much better chance. I don't. I am getting terry. I'm well, yeah,
because it just seems like such a struggle. I know,
but that's the part to work through. It's a lot
of purification in this process. You know, it's gonna be ugly. Yeah,
it has to get ugly before the healing can happen,
(30:51):
exactly because it's allowing these wounds to be exposed and
even just like being able to look each other in
the eyes. You know, it's hard. Yeah, it's it's it's hard,
you know, swift, it's a lot, and it's a lot
of pain and having to look, you know, in the
shadows of our hearts. Really just it's purified because at
(31:12):
the end of the day is just getting closer to
love rights. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, this was a beautiful conversation.
Thank you, Thank you very It's powerful what just happened. Yeah,
it's really beautiful. Proud to be a life for it. Yeah,
you've done any time. Man, you are so incredible. You
(31:37):
guys were Yeah. Now I don't think I know what
my next tattoo is going to be. Eli, I was
like sitting here like that speaks to my value to
join the Red Table Talk family and become a part
of the conversation. Follow us at facebook dot com slash
(32:00):
red table Talk. Thanks for listening to this episode of
Red Table Talk podcast produced by Facebook Watch, Westbrook Audio,
and I Heart Radio.
Hey, fam I'm Jada Pinkett Smith and this is the
Red Table Pop podcast, all your favorite episodes from the
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I Heart Radio. Please don't forget to rate and review
on Apple Podcasts. I've been feeling very stressed, very stressed.
You've been feeling stressed by just thinking about this conversation today,
(00:24):
being so concerned about choosing the right words, saying the
right thing, but still being able to speak authentically, authentically.
I get it. This is a really tough subject. Here's
the hard truth. There's real animosity between blacks and Asians,
and that has really talked about brazen attacks against Asian Americans.
(00:46):
The man walked up and started hitting her in the face.
We want to warn you the videos are graphic. The
recent surge of hay crumbs against Asian Americans. I've seen
my grandma get yelled at your Asians. So you're a
virus has illuminate needed a painful divide between the black
and Asian American communities. You're seeing my skin as dirty.
Asian people just want to hang out with Asian people only.
(01:08):
Anti blackness is rooted in our culture. That's very subtle.
But is very deeply rooted. Reports of Blacks attacking Asians
have fed the tension that goes back decades. In Black
fifteen year old name Latasha Harlans was shot and killed
by Korean grocer during an argument over a bottle of
(01:29):
orange juice. The store owner was convicted of voluntary manslaughter
but got no jail time. When justice wasn't served, outrage exploded,
fueling the LA riots. The recent increase in social injustices
has called for a racial reckoning for Black and Asian Americans.
(01:52):
My perspective is the fact that we're both minorities. I
feel like, obviously we come from very different cultures, but
it's hard for me to believe that other things could
get in the way of us having a common ground.
I guess what I need to understand is where does
their animosity for us come from? Because that's what it
feels like. It feels like that they have come into
(02:14):
our communities, taken over our stores, taken over the hair
and nail industry, and really blocked us from being able
to thrive in that industry because we're coming into those stores,
you know, we're getting our hair and nails done, and
what are they giving back to the community, and when
(02:35):
we come into those environments and patronize their businesses, we're
not even treated with respect and kindness. I've had some
very volatile and um passionate discussions with family members and friends,
and most of my friends feel like I don't care.
(02:55):
I don't care. I don't have the bandwidth or the
interests because they don't care about about us and they
don't treat us with respect. So I don't care about
anything that they're talking about. I'm worried about what's happening
with my people, you know, because we you know, we
have our own struggle. Yeah, and that's the majority. That
is the majority, You're right, So it's very difficult for
(03:17):
there to be any any real concerned I don't even
feel like they want our help. Now. I may hear
something different from the scholars, but from the average person,
do they care? Are they interested in a relationship with me?
I just had an experience in the airport where I'm
standing in line waiting for coffee, and I had a
(03:39):
whole conversation going A white man my age came behind
me stud in line. We started having a conversation. A
young couple in front of me, white had a conversation.
I've never had an Asian person come up to me
that I didn't know to start a conversation, to speak
to me, to give me eye contact, and anyway, that's
(03:59):
also a cultural things. Well, it is cultural. But when
I go on vacation and I go to a foreign country,
I make it my business to try to be conscious
of the culture there so that I can act accordingly. Right,
So I think that we're owed some of that when
(04:19):
you come to our country and you start businesses, that's
just even good business practice to treat your patrons with
respect and care, like that's just common sense, right, But
we don't feel like we we get that. And I
also recognize that it's a very limited exposure that we
have with the community. They're so separate, that's the only
(04:43):
interaction that we really have, and the cultures are so
crastically different. Yeah, that's what I've come to understand. But
I hear you. I think there's a lot of misunderstandings culturally.
The biggest misconception is that Asian is just Asian, Vietnamese, Chinese, Japanese, Filipino,
(05:05):
like you just throw them all in one. But they're
also different, so different but various cultures, right, it's difficult
to distinguish one from the other sometimes too not if
you pay attention. You pay attention. For me, it's the
feeling of or the lack of reciprocity, right, And it's
a feeling that like, I'm not going to go out
(05:28):
of my way to support and help someone if I
don't even have the feeling that they even want my support.
Here's the thing, and I hear you, and I think
one of the biggest misconceptions that we have in this
fight as a whole is that it's about this reciprocity situation, right,
And I get that. I totally understand that, and of
course we want to feel as though there's some exchange,
(05:50):
but at the end of the day, what we can
allow is hate of any kind to exist. I hear
this conversation endlessly. They didn't do that, so why should
I have to do this? And they didn't do that,
so I did this. And it's really hard because we
do feel hurt, and we feel neglected, may exactly overlooked,
(06:10):
and we feel not seen. I get all of that,
and that's what makes it so difficult because I understand,
but I also know there's nothing in the world that
makes a woman sixty five years old in New York
City from the Philippines getting beat up by a man
and nobody helps. That makes no sense whatsoever. Hate his hate.
(06:32):
I agree, and I think I think people feel terrible
about that. But I just don't feel like, you know,
there's no real um, there's nothing in us that makes
us stand up and feel like we really want to
come to Well, here's the thing. Then why should we
expect that from white people? Because that's how white people feel.
(06:53):
White people feel like, that's not my problem, that's your problem. Okay, yeah,
so we brought you guys over here. Okay, whatever, blah
blah blah blah blah, you figure it out. That's on you.
That's exactly how white people feel about our struggles, you know.
And so that's what I'm saying. The cycle. It's the cycle,
and I get it. Listen, It's like we're asking you
(07:14):
to care because we're committing we have out of compassion
for humanity. I understand in the community. What makes it
so difficult that we are tired. We're tired always having
to put it aside, take the hot road all that.
So when we decided to bring this intense topic to
the table. There were two people we wanted to have here.
(07:37):
Both have devoted their careers to taking on tough subjects.
Award winning journalists Lisa Laying is fighting on the front
lines to stop Asian hate. Lisa and her family have
received numerous death threats since the increase of hate crimes
on the A A p I community. One of the
smartest people I know, Dr Michael Eric Dyson, is a
(07:58):
leading voice on black history and culture. This ordained preacher, professor,
and author of seven New York Times bestsellers, is known
for breaking down difficult topics. Let's get to let's get
to it. This is a really tough subject and attend time. Yeah,
and so we just wanted to get some education just
(08:18):
around the tensions between blacks and Asians. How did they
get this way? One of the first things any immigrant
group learns when they come to America who the bottom
of the totem pole is. I don't care who you are,
black people, right, the darker people are at the bottom
of the totem pole when immigrants come over here and
they do they recognize this structure, right, or Whites are
(08:41):
at the top and blacks are at the bottom. So
often when immigrants from Asia come to this country with nothing,
they have this aspiration of being able to achieve some
semblance of the American dream. And what does that look like?
It looks white, right, But everyone is being dehumanized, right
because everyone is trying to rise up that ladder where
in Los Angeles, And we think about Latasha Harlan's right,
(09:03):
that was a touch stone, like see, that's what they
do to us, the history of anti blackness within Asian communities, that,
along with the Rodney King, this was a signal moment.
I don't know a single Asian person who isn't horrified
still to this day about that case. I truly don't.
And that's the thing to understand that the people it
(09:24):
horrified are not just black, and the people it horrified
are many Asian brothers and sisters who saw that, who
felt that it was a horrible misrepresentation of who they
are as a people. And here's the thing. The so
called negative thing that any particular group does is seen
as representative of that group. Black people have a right
(09:44):
to feel hurt and injured by the fact that everywhere
in this world, to be darker is to be the humanized,
and there's no question about that, which means that we
should be especially careful not to reproduce that same herb
to other groups when that tension starts to to brew.
(10:06):
No one, our communities aren't the ones that are benefiting
from it, not at all. For black people to be
demonizing Asian brothers and sisters. What the Wuhan flu? The
Chinese flu? Who wins white supremacists? So it hits us
against each other. And that exact idea of pitting minorities
against each other is the most perfect path towards domination.
(10:29):
I mean, white supremacy is what we're not talking about
individual white brothers and sisters. We're talking about the conscious
or unconscious belief in the inherent inferiority of some and
the superiority above. And I think that's the thing. I
think there's a lot of people in our community specifically,
who don't recognize the white supremacy construct that we're falling into.
(10:49):
You know, that's the thing, like how you just broke
that down, but you've been breaking it down. It's like
I didn't really have the words. You know, you're come
into red table. I got to bring my a game.
That's exactly it. But it's got power. But that's what's
ruining and ruling it. And it also is stoking fear
(11:11):
amongst people whose livelihood and lives and the way they've
always known things feels threatened. And that's the thing about
this period right now, and white people are starting to recognize, well,
I really had no idea. What's interesting, though, the ingenuity
of white supremacy is it don't matter who's in control
as long as the system is operating. So you could
(11:32):
have a black head of Department of Housing under the
Trump administration and you still gonna have white supremacist ideology
being pumped through that black mouth and body. The ingenuity
of white supremacy is it doesn't demand a white body
to be efficacious and effect. That's a very important point. Basic.
Have you personally felt the surge of animosity that is happening.
(11:58):
I have been teased and been on the receiving end
of the aggressions my whole life. But over the last year,
the level of vitriol and just the hatred that is
expressed has been really unnerving. I mean, even people wishing
harm on my own children because we brought the coronavirus
(12:18):
to this country, so absolutely, but it kills me that
so many of our Asian elders and mothers and children
are being attacked so senselessly for no reason. At this table,
we always want to hear from you, so check this out.
Recently Stop Asian Hate posts on our Red Table Talk,
(12:39):
Instagram and Facebook page confirmed this steep divide. We received
so many comments and responses like these that relaid frustration, anger,
and pain. I'm supposed to care about stop Asian hate.
I'm supposed to care about what's happening to Asian people.
They're rude, did you respectful in their racist if you
(13:04):
ask me? Rushing us out their stores, following us around,
watching us every move like we're gonna rob the whole store,
but they don't mind taking them black dollars, and they
didn't mind opening up these businesses in our neighborhoods. They
(13:24):
have never helped me in mind do anything, So why
would I jump on some stop Asian hate bandway? That
was the Jara te And it was so deep that
there were lots of posts that had to be pulled,
that's how offensive they were. How would you address that?
(13:47):
You know, I think it's really easy to say things
like well, this black person did something to me, and
this nail songer or this Asian person disrespected me. Those
are individual experiences and that can't categorize who. That's not
the totality. They are so diverse. I mean, there are
over twenty different Asian cultures living in this country, with
(14:10):
different languages, different traditions, and frankly, not only do I
know very little about being Thai or Laotian, or Cambodian
or Vietnamese, I don't even know the first thing about
being Chinese because I'm not from China. I'm from America.
And this sister, bless her heart, I don't doubt her hard.
I don't doubt the fact that this is her experience.
I don't want to dis black people who have been mistreated.
(14:32):
I'm not saying there are no rude Asian people in
stores that have done exactly what this woman said. But
here's the question. I would say this to black people
when we say this, and God bless this woman right
wife have been saying that forever about us. You know,
I don't mind. But these black people they're just rude,
They're loud, you can't get them to work on time.
(14:52):
They never come prepared, they always got excuses, on and
on and on. Is that a large enough sample size
for you to determined this is the fundamental characteristic of
Asian brothers and sisters. Or if we're gonna get real
ugly about it, how many black people have stolen from them?
That their attitudes have been misshapen by the behavior of
(15:16):
certain black people, And you're gonna go, wait a minute,
most black people ain't ripping you off. Most black people right,
So I would ask them, I understand your pain, but
don't draw conclusions based on your limited sample side because
white folks have been doing that forever. Jim was based
on that. White supremacy is based on that. You don't
want all black people being judged by your knuckle head cousin.
(15:37):
How do you get beyond that when that is the
only experience that you have, when your experience is so limited,
because that's too experience interacting with the Asian community is
so freaking limited. White focusing the same thing. We don't
know no negroes, They don't live next door to us.
(15:57):
All I see is what I see on a rap video.
But I tell people read a book, Uh, go Google,
but look at some darned YouTube. It ain't that hard.
So you are ignorant, but you're responsible for your ignorance.
So when we say we don't have any experience with
you know, hey, the only Asian person I know is
(16:18):
the person you know in the nails a line of light,
Well then we don't want black people judge by what
we think happens with the black person at McDonald's and wife, folk, girl,
do you want them? We ain't got no fried If
so called pooky and so called is the litmus test
for how people judge. Now, my point is stereotype as
(16:39):
a lazy person's way of engaging the other. So have
a more complicated, nuanced perspective. We gently encourage her, ma'am,
just like I do with white folks when I challenged
them with humor or acerbic, intense rhetoric aimed at their
colossal indignity, that you've got to just say, open up
(17:00):
a little bit, open your heart. Do you want to
be judged by the worst things you've done? Do you
want to be judged about how black people have been
said to treat white folks? Cause I get letters every
day and they're going, you up here talking about this,
and I don't deny that these white people have had
this experience that they've seen black people do X, Y
and Z right there saying I saw this, this is
in my store. I hired this many black people. Every
(17:22):
black person I hired acted like this. So they got
a sample too. It ain't scientific, but they got a
pole too. So we're gonna put their bigoted pole against
your biggoted pole. Let's do something different. Let's draw back
and see that there's our different experiences, different peoples. And
if we judge people based upon the worst of what
they do or the worst of how they behave or
on one day, have you judged them over space and time?
(17:45):
Did you have a conversation with them, Did you talk
to them about where they come from? Have you spoken right?
In other words, have you treated them the way you
want to be treated. If you want an Asian person
to speak to you, have you ever spoken to them?
So my point is that when we get into the
politics of reciprocity and knowledge, it's not just about read
a book, it's not just about no more. I recommend
all that, but open up your perspective, be a bit fair,
(18:07):
and don't do the same things I think we need
to have Michael Eric Dyson like pumped into everyone's It
just doesn't sound satisfying to say that to that woman.
Get a book and read your history. And it's the
human problem to Yeah, and I know it's hard, but
(18:28):
it's also like, maybe try to expand your heart a
little bit and your mind just a little bit. How
about that. You can't reduce the world to your perspective.
And yet at the same time, your perspective is so
critical of how you see the world. So it is
to your advantage to continue to expand. Okay, but it
is not the onus on the Asian community to do
(18:51):
the same when it comes to us. And I would
say the same thing to Asian people who have a
myampic view black people. You know, have you taken the
time when you moved into this community, did you read
about the history, did you get to know people, did
you invest? Did you hire people from the community and
give them opportunities? I do think it's incumbent upon all
(19:13):
of us. I mean, if we don't start functioning that way,
this is all headed down. And you raise a great
point because part of the investment of the model minority
is that it is insulated Asian community. It helps, but
It also hurts because that honorary white status allows you
to derive a certain kind of benefit from being quiet,
(19:35):
from not speaking of from not making noise. How open, Lisa,
do you believe that the Asian community is too educating
themselves around the history of the relationship between black people
and Asian people, but just black people in general, you know,
just having understands, I do actually think that there's a
(19:57):
generational divide in the Asian community. Um, younger Asians were
taught black history, so that's why I think so many
Asian Americans showed up to protest the systemic injustices that
have been directed towards black people this summer. So that's
why it hurts when we hear Asian people have never
(20:19):
stood up for us. So many younger Asians are like,
where is this animosity coming from. There's a history, and
it's there's a reason for it. If our main goal
is to really have some harmony, we have to stop
like inserting ourselves right back in that cycle. And I'm
not making excuses for Asian people, but often there are
language barriers, and there are cultural differences, and as a whole,
(20:44):
Asians aren't the most communicative people around my husband, he's
a Korean American and his parents didn't even tell him
I love you until he was in his forties. So
that's what we're working with here. So typically they're just
not warm and cuddly and friendly. It's not so much
of the not warm and cuddly. It's just not the
most communic to It's not affection, particularly affection. But I
(21:07):
don't think that Asians not approaching you to talk to you.
It's not so much because they're discriminating against you. I mean,
I do think there's a cultural piece to it where
they're probably not even talking to each other that much.
Quite honestly, when we talk about race in this country,
it's through a certain lens, right, it's black and it's white.
Asians have been in this country since two hundreds, right,
(21:29):
long time? Did you read about Asian history in your
textbooks and schools? I mean, I didn't, even when I
hear this aversion and people saying, well, Asian people don't
stand up for our community. Asian Americans don't even know
their own history, you know, because it's not taught in
our schools. If you look at Asian American history in
this country, we can't compare it to what black people
(21:51):
have gone through. Right, Although some Chinese and some films
were actually enslaved, but the Chinese were the only demographic
to ever excluded from being able to immigrate to this
country for decades. Hundred and twenty thousand Japanese rounded into
camps for years. They lost their businesses, they lost their homes.
(22:11):
I also learned that there were lynchings that happened of
lying in the American history, happened in Chinatown exactly. And
I just learned about this. Think about Asian brothers and
sisters the way white folks think about us, and I
think we'd be a bit more compassionate. Tony Morrison said,
on the backs of black people, America has been built,
and we know Asian labor, unrecognized, has provided the opportunity
(22:35):
for America to be what it is. So here is
the tragic irony that we would come to a place
now where we're at each other's next when indeed what
we should be doing is trying to look at the
common enemy of white supremacies that is murking all of us.
I've heard a lot of my Asian peers talking about
aspiring to this level of whiteness and not wanting to
(22:58):
have their original name, Like if their parents call them
their original name and they have friends in the house,
that makes them feel some type of way. Well, I mean,
when you don't know your history, and if whites are
at the top, you can understand why you've are moving
that direct an honorary white exactly. Now, Michael, let me
ask you a question. What do we say to Black
(23:20):
people in the community who feel threatened and feel as
though that the presence of Asians and our community are
stealing livelihood? Why be mad at the Asian brothers and
sisters who came here looking for an opportunity. Don't hate
the player, hate the game. Why do Asian people have
those nail shops? Where could they get them in the
(23:41):
black community? Be mad at white supremacists who denied black
people access to the loans to be able to own
the shops in their own community. And the game at
this point is black people can't get loans. The reason
Asian brothers and sisters are all no shops because they
were able to get loans right and Asians historically haven't
had the opportunities to open their businesses or even live
(24:01):
in some cases in predominantly white communities, so they end
up in communities of color where they're predominantly black people.
And when they do open businesses, it's not so much
that they are trying to discriminate against black people. This
is where they have to open businesses, and often they
don't take the time to understand the historical roots of
(24:22):
where they have set up shops. All they really care about, frankly,
is survival. So this is the thing. So, because I
want to make this really clear, you are basically saying
that it's the construct of white supremacy that makes it
possible that Asians can get those loans. Before weekend broken down.
I just want to make sure that it's clear that's
(24:44):
exactly right. The history of Black cooperation with Asians and
Asian cooperation with blacks is much deeper and more profound
than the kind of bitterness and the freacas we see
going on right now. Asian people, whether black people know
it or not, have been involved in the struggle for
African American freedom from the get go, from the time
that they got here, right, but that history is obscuwer
(25:07):
and what is put forth is they're disrespectful, they don't
like us. We saw a black people side with the
Philippines and the Philippine American War. We saw black folks
with the Vietnam War speak out, and so it is
in the history if you read it, I mean Hector
Woultang Clan. Yeah, the greatest protest movements that we have
(25:31):
put forth have always had the participation of Asian brothers
and sistis. For every story of the tension, there are
so many stories of solidarity those I'm not saying they
haven't done everything you said, But having said that, are
you judging an entire race of people, Vietnamese, Chinese and
(25:52):
Korean based upon your interaction? Was amazing folks who treated
you like crap. That kind of thing is what we've
been fighting in. That's what Martin Luther King, Ella Baker
and Joanne Robinson had been fighting against all of our lives.
We got to do so, Lisa, I want to bring
in somebody who say is one of the smartest people
out there. Korean American writer and am Herst professor Men
(26:16):
Chin Lee. Hello, Hi, Hi. You know, I'm so happy
to be here and thank you for that generous introduction.
I wanted to be here because I think the Red
Table talk is actually a Korean show. I don't know
if you knew that. I love it. I love and
here let me tell you why it's a Korean show
(26:39):
because it's three generations of women of color, and that
is exactly how I grew up. And also, I'm such
a huge fan of Michael Eric Dyson, So hello, professor,
and Lisa Lyn knows how much I love her. I
want to really address to Latasha Harlan situation because that
is a graphic image, but it is a very incomplete image.
(26:59):
There also an image of Euricochiyama cradling the head of
Malcolm X when he was assassinated, and that image has
been on the forefront of my mind always. We can
focus on that one thing in the same way we
can focus on all those horrible videos which the media
has been perpetuating to create greater sense of divide and
for us to buy into the notion that them people
(27:20):
came over here and brought that disease and black people
attacking Asian people in the street. Now here's here's the
use of white supremacy. The disproportioned number of people who
are attacking Asian people in that black but it serves
the narrative that see these criminalized black people who are
out of control, and we have so many gaps in
our knowledge because a white supremacist education prevents us from
(27:41):
knowing about each other and ourselves. It's part of the
veil of ignorance because most of us don't really know
the history. History that's not the part of the story
they want us to know. We need test solidarity is
not just because we want to feel good, but because
we have twelve percent African Americans in this country who
can vote, and then we have Asian Americans, which just
(28:02):
five percent. But we're the fastest growing population of racial
minorities in this country. If we have sevent if we
can get most of us to vote together, what can't
we do? Men, you say that we've been ignoring a
major factor in the Black Asian divide. Can you explain? Yeah,
I really want to talk about this because I come
(28:24):
from a working class background. So one out of four
Asian Americans in New York City lived below the poverty line.
Of all the racial minorities in New York City, the
poorest people are actually Asian Americans. They're struggling of Asian
American elders have language issues, And that's really important to
(28:44):
notify because when we think about the people, let's say,
in those nail salons who could be rude, some of
those people are actually almost like indentured servants. They owe
so much money to the people who brought them into
this country. And those women who are killed in Atlanta,
two of those women live there like nobody wanted them. Yeah. So,
(29:04):
I mean, I asked for compassion, But if you don't
feel like giving compassion, that's okay. I get it. It's
true if you don't have it in you, if you're
too exhausted, it's like you've been fighting this fight. I
get it. But before you make such a bold assertion
to refuse, just take the time to understand some of
those data points that engine just conveyed. And it's a
(29:27):
pretty bold stance to take, I think. So. Yeah, I
guess at the end of the day, it really is about, like,
having these conversations, do you feel like you got enlightened
in a certain because I know I hadsolutely absolutely. I
just really really started listening and thinking about my own
limited experience, and then you hear yourself, don't And I
(29:48):
hear myself because sometimes you hear you go like, oh,
is that mean? Like did I really just say that?
But I do understand that we are as a community
so traumatized right now, it's just hard for us to
feel that compassion. These conversations are hard, they're painful, but
they're so essential. As long as we continue to perpetuate
(30:09):
these tensions and aggressions against one another, we will continue
to spiral down. And that's why we need each other.
I mean, I need you and you need me, And
this is a fight that we're all in together. This
is life and death at this point. Absolutely ela out
of many one, when we do that, we got a
(30:31):
much better chance. I don't. I am getting terry. I'm well, yeah,
because it just seems like such a struggle. I know,
but that's the part to work through. It's a lot
of purification in this process. You know, it's gonna be ugly. Yeah,
it has to get ugly before the healing can happen,
(30:51):
exactly because it's allowing these wounds to be exposed and
even just like being able to look each other in
the eyes. You know, it's hard. Yeah, it's it's it's hard,
you know, swift, it's a lot, and it's a lot
of pain and having to look, you know, in the
shadows of our hearts. Really just it's purified because at
(31:12):
the end of the day is just getting closer to
love rights. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, this was a beautiful conversation.
Thank you, Thank you very It's powerful what just happened. Yeah,
it's really beautiful. Proud to be a life for it. Yeah,
you've done any time. Man, you are so incredible. You
(31:37):
guys were Yeah. Now I don't think I know what
my next tattoo is going to be. Eli, I was
like sitting here like that speaks to my value to
join the Red Table Talk family and become a part
of the conversation. Follow us at facebook dot com slash
(32:00):
red table Talk. Thanks for listening to this episode of
Red Table Talk podcast produced by Facebook Watch, Westbrook Audio,
and I Heart Radio.
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