January 19, 2021 • 32 mins
Former rivals and sports journalists, Jemele Hill and Cari Champion, come to the Table to discuss why Black women often don’t support each other, and how difficult mother-daughter relationships can lead to toxic female friendships. Plus, Jada shares her own painful story about being betrayed by a former female friend.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, fam I'm Jada Pinkett Smith and this is the
Red Table Pop podcast all your favorite episodes from the
Facebook Watch show in audio produced by Westbrook Audio and
I Heart Radio. Please don't forget to rate and review
on Apple podcasts. On this Red Table talk what was
the worst betrayal by a woman friend? We as black
(00:22):
women give me so cruel to each other. We don't
even take care of our own. We don't talk about
it a lot. With the whole Mega Stallion situation, Jamal
Hill and Carrie Champion joined the table. People were trying
actively to pit us against each other. I had a
rough couple of years. It was bad. I didn't have
any friends for a raw conversation about how we as
(00:45):
women treat each other. Somebody who was close to me
was trying to take me out, and the pay mother's
passed to their daughters when you get let down that way,
it's just it's really really hard. So it hurts for
me to fill it for her. Today, we're doing a
(01:10):
show about mean girl. We can relate in so many
different ways. Have either of you ever been a mean girl?
I wouldn't say I'm a mean girl. I'm gonna tell
you what I am, and that's a petty bitch. I'm
a petty bitch because here's the thing. Now, I might
not say some mean things and I might not do
(01:32):
some mean things, but if you do something to me, baby,
let me tell you, I'm gonna hold on to it
and to the moment comes for you. And they'll be like, oh,
what did you what you need me? I at a
point in my life was just mean to everything because
I was hurting and I was angry and I was
(01:52):
going through a lot of stuff. People will say that
I'm me. They would definitely say that I'm me. That
there's a difference in the meanness. I'm not for the nonsense,
I'm not for the ble. Probably one of my worst
character defects is being judge gudgmental. I'm extremely judgmental, and
I actually just realized that it's my own insecurities. I
(02:15):
didn't even realize that that's where that judgment comes from,
you know. So what I don't like in somebody else
is what I don't like in myself. Real talk, I'm
definitely a work in progress. Well, we all are. Recently,
when Mega Stallion went through a very painful and personal trauma,
a disturbing reaction unfolded. Women came out in full force,
(02:39):
publicly mocking and criticizing and doubting Meg. Meg clapped back
at the hurtful gossip, urging women to check themselves before
being nasty to other women. It got us all really
thinking about how we as black women treat one another
and the roots of this toxic mean girl culture. It
was really jarring to me because it was almost like
(03:02):
we don't even take care of our own, right, So
that was that's really painful too. That way we are
as a culture are attacking one another absolutely, and even
we as black women understanding what we're up against culturally
and in society, right, and so it was really disheartening
to But were you guys really surprised, because I wasn't.
(03:23):
I kind of was. I kind of was considering that
it's coming from black women, right. We have some guests
that are going to join us today. I think we're
missing a big part of the story. I think everyone
knows this. The NBA is a business, So let me
get this straight. Sports anchors Carry Champion and Jamal Hill
started off his rivals, two black women competing for the
(03:45):
same high profile hoole spot. At ESPN carry got the job.
Even though they were pitted against each other, the two
forced an unlikely friendship, often defending one another when no
one else would. Now they've joined forces to co host
their own series. Welcome back to Sports, Jamal. We're still here.
(04:07):
We're obviously we're doing something, okay, proving sisterhood can prevail.
We're so exciting you were having coming here with them
last We're so happy to have you here. We were
(04:30):
about every everything. So you started your relationship as rivals
for the same jobs. People were trying actively to pick
us against each other. My agent is in my ear.
He's like, look, just stay away from Jamal. She's supposed
to get this job, don't. I'm right right right, you know.
I'm just listening to all of this stuff. The streets
(04:51):
was talking social media and people are like, you should
have that job. It shouldn't be heard. And I just
didn't want that to be our story. So from the beginning,
I was like, she's gonna be my friend. Like the
job was really hard. It was very hard. I felt
very lonely. I felt afraid I didn't have any friends.
I feel like no one liked me, which because no
(05:11):
one did but she wasn't projecting, but she truly reached
out to me. Then was like, we're gonna go to dinner,
and I unwillingly went five minutes and she's like, let
me tell you what ain't treating you right? Let me
tell you who you work with, ain't nothing. The girls
don't like you. You need to demand better. They disrespecting you.
And I'm just like, oh, so much, everything right, because
(05:35):
at that point I was sort of a o G
in the system. So you know, I'm trying to break
her down. Let me give you what it is. And
it's like, I now understand why she totally would question
my motives. Because sometimes when you get in that kind
of position and then there's somebody else, another woman that's like,
oh do this, they might be plotting on the load.
My first thought is to be skeptical. Why are you
(05:55):
sitting down immediately telling me don't like this person? And
like this person, I'm grown, I'm growing as hell whenever
I want to like. So we have this dinner. I
walk away feeling so confused because her spirit is so pure, right,
I like her, but then I'm like, day, she's talking
so much. She continuously reached out to me after that dinner,
she went out of her way to be kind to me. Um,
(06:15):
I had had a rough couple of years. I'm not lying.
It was bad. People try to divide us. I mean,
please consistently, she would tell me, without gossiping. Yeah, they
don't like you. Why why do you think no one
liked you? And you all can relate to this, like
I like to be great at what I do right,
and I'm a hard worker, and I demand a lot
(06:36):
for myself and from others. And if you present and
look a certain way, you're coming in with a little
skirt and high heels, people like, who do you think
she is? And I'm aware of it, so I and
I don't change who I am because that's who I
am at my core. But I can count on my
hands how many friends I've ever had that have never
been jealous of me in any moment I tried to
throw me under the bus, and she was truly one
of them. Jamal, tell me why it was so important,
(06:57):
like for you because you're like, no, she's gonna be
my right, because sometimes that's what it takes. You talk
about the dedication. Sometimes it's like oh no, no, no, no,
we know only two black women here doing this thing.
We're not We're not about to do that. I've just
had seen too many situations, especially there at ESPN, where
people really started battling and hating each other and it
(07:18):
turned out it was really over nothing, over nonsense. As
black women, we can't afford to do that as it is.
It's hard enough once we get into that room, Once
we get to that position, we bring in a whole
bunch of battles with us. Right, So what do I
look like with this woman who's come to ESPN getting
this position being her enemy? I think in a lot
of environments that we get into as black female professionals, unfortunately,
(07:43):
we're made to believe it can only be one. It's like, no,
we only have room for one. I think it's fighting
for that acceptance. It's feeling like you had to fight
so hard to get that specific kind of acceptance to
be in this specific position, and then when someone else
comes in, like, oh, no, you're not gonna wipe away
all the work that I did to get myself here,
(08:05):
did you wipe I was talking to one of our
young producers here. One of the things that she brought
up is the idea of survival over sisterhood, survival before sisterhood,
And this is one of those instances where you were like, no, no,
(08:26):
we can survive systems. Well, I don't think. I don't
think people get that. That's powerful, and that's why we
find ourselves in competition with other women, other women. Now, Jamale,
you went through your own firestorm. Yeah, and I had
some thoughts about our president that I shared on Twitter
and let everybody know, and it created quite a firestorm
and professionally put me at risk. And you know, the
(08:49):
whole country if I like, the whole country was bad
at me. The president called for me to be fired.
I think that's one of the more outrageous comments that
anyone could make, and certainly something that I think is
firable offense about ESPN. No one had her back, no one,
like I can count on my hands how many people
had her back within the system. Oh yeah, listen. I
would just send a tweet. I would just say I
(09:11):
got your back, or what's happening isn't right. I would
tweet very comfortably because the lack of support from black
women was so crystal clear at that moment. This woman
had made this company millions and give them straight credibility.
They had put her in a position to win and
survive and thrive and one hint of controversy, and they
(09:32):
took that all away from her and they and while
she left on her own accord because she couldn't thrive
there for her old mental you know, sanity. The way
that they treated her, the same people who loved her
one day next day. I have never seen anything like
it in my life. That's how it goes. But it
(09:53):
was that kind of support is why I was able
to weather all the things that happened. And that's when
you find out who really is now for you, because
that's when you really find out who's not. Yes. So
with the whole Mega stallion situation, I think really the
disappointing part is just with black women period. We can
be so hard and cruel to one another. I'm not
(10:14):
surprised that so much of that energy, unfortunately came from
Black women. It's our inability to see the humanity and
each other. We're begging the world to see us in
a particular way, but we don't see it in each other.
We don't and it is for me so frustrating and
painful that we're begging for the world to to see
(10:35):
us in a certain manner, and we just we can't
offer it for ourselves. And my belief is that if
we can't give it to ourselves, we never we can't
expect it, right. I just feel like it's it's such
a distance, you know, between being a black woman and
her self love. There's there's this big chasm between them two,
(10:56):
you know what I mean. And a lot of it
is the way we've been socialized, as I love it
is the way we've been socialized in our own home.
Is that, honestly, some of our mothers have been really
responsible for the toxic relationships we have with other women.
It's like how we hear our mothers talk about other
black women don't trust her, she ain't this and that.
Like we'll hear them have a full scale conversation with
(11:18):
another black woman that's their friend. As soon as they
get off the phone, they someday like it would mean
we see it right, and we take those lessons of
mistrust that are bred in our own home, and then
when we get out in the world and we're looking
(11:39):
at another black woman, instead of celebrating her finding something
great about it, we'll be like she thinks she cute
with them shoes? What about this? What about that? I
think it's how we're loved. Like I know, for me
not having a father around, really, it's hard for me
to be vulnerable. It's hard for me to love you
and trust you and be around you and say who
I am and love myself because I think lot of
(12:00):
the times the women I see who have self love,
how to father around to remind them and love them
and their first lessons of beauty. Those of us who
had to grow up without a father. But we grow
up in violent neighborhoods and we have to put up
these walls and this armor, and then you click up
with a group of girls and then you end up
being you know, you get betrayed. We come from so
(12:22):
many worlds of mistrust and trauma that it makes it
very difficult. It's how we've all been taught. Eventually, the
press begin to take on the traits of the oppressor,
and that is that's where we're mirroring the patriarchy and
the sexism and the misogynists and all of that that
we have to deal with. We're just turning it on
each other. And unfortunately we've been conditioned this way for
(12:45):
so long. We literally spend a lot of time on learning.
That is my biggest piece of advice to people out
there is that if you want to be different, if
you want to be the change you want to see,
as they say, you have to unlearn, okay, and you
have to be willing to be self aware enough to
know where you're vulnerable, where your most pettitous. You have
(13:07):
to be realistic about the ugly that that's the only one, right.
We also got to be honest that a lot of
us are doing performative sisterhood, which is straight up sisterhood,
because we have, certainly all of us have encountered those
(13:27):
women who you know, at the women's conference, at the
you know, little get together, they're like woman is black man,
that being the most trifling backstabbing to remember that one time,
when that one time, like like they all there too,
it looks good. They're only doing this because we used
to sounds because but like, deep down their actions they
(13:51):
are not supporting other women at all. We have at
our jobs. Remember when the athletes would be friendly with us,
right and then the wives start talking like hey girl,
hey girl, and I'm like wait. We'd be like wait,
do they like us to do everything? They're trying to
sleep with their man, or they'll say that when they're there. Yeah,
you see that same woman out socially somewhere else, and
she will treat you like listen here, I just look.
(14:18):
I might be getting a little five met the journalism
here because and you will recognize, like, no one's perfect,
but you will recognize the sisterhood. We don't do that.
What would you say was the worst betrayal by a
woman friend? I had a cousin, actually who have but
we've settled our differences now. She like developed super faster
(14:42):
than me, and she had like the long flowing hair
and my hair. You know, I got the afro vibe,
you know what I mean. I was super skinny. I
was like tomboy. And I would always tell her the
dudes that I liked. Like, I was always be like,
oh my god, he's okay. Every time she went for that,
she would date him every time. And so after like
(15:03):
three times, I was like, you know what, Ye're the
dumb one. Keep her, you keep on telling her she's
going for those guys. Well, I'll tell you I had
a girlfriend who brought some dudes to my house who
stole my I d and got my name caught up
in a credit card scamp somebody who was close to me,
(15:25):
like trying to take me out. Yeah, that that goes
to show you how like envy. You know, I really
feel like a lot of us get so riddled with envy,
like envy or justify so much like it's one of
(15:46):
the most destructior. There's no resolving, there's nov it's envy.
There's nothing, you know, and there's a lot of that
that just happens amongst women. What about you too. I
don't have to say this within context because I don't
I don't want the headline to be she said her
(16:07):
mother betrayed her right and so but that is probably
my deepest betrayal. You know, my mother is a recovering
addict um and we went through a lot when I
was growing up, and um, you know, there were some
incidents that we had where I felt, um, you know, like, oh,
surely I know, you know she's got a bad drug habit,
(16:27):
but they won't go there. And when it went there,
it just left me with this incredible sense of disappointment
and to be that vulnerable and then for it to
happen with a parent. I think it trained you the
rest of your life. And so, unfortunately, one of the
things that I still struggle with is that it is
very hard for me to be vulnerable. I have repaired
our relationship. She's great, but I think a lot of
(16:49):
the betrayal I experienced with her growing up unfortunately. Um
you know, my therapist said this to me one day,
and it really sat home with me, is that childhood
lasts forever. It lasts forever, and so I didn't realize
that until I got good and grown and much more
self aware and much more um comfortable going into those
deep parts that I realized that because of that sense
(17:12):
of betrayal, it impacted how I was able to even
have certain friendships. Not a lot of people get here
because I learned that blockade early. So once I experienced
that sense of betrayal, it didn't fortunately stay with me,
and I'm trying to unlearn that. So I don't always
keep people there when you get let down that way.
It's just it's really really hard. Well that's my story too.
(17:36):
I mean, you know, we've had a lot of healing,
but it does you know, your childhood stayed with you
and you just be like, God, damn it, get away.
I thought that. Yes, So what are you feeling over there?
I can Yeah, it hurts for me to feel it
(17:57):
from Yeah. One of the things her and I bond
with the most is our childhood and our parents, and
we tell the same story. Yeah, scary will be like
remember when you were seven years old your mom told
you to go make a drink and you're like that,
I'm seven drink mom. Or saying things that hurt you
(18:20):
because they don't see you hurts. Yeah. I think this
brings up a lot in the sense of like what
we deal with as a community. We can sit in
this pain and feel it, and you can imagine that
people who don't have a way of working it out right,
(18:41):
you can see how they can strike out at other
people for their anger, their disappointment, their insecurities just flare up.
So if you come in and you've got them pretty
legs somewhere she thinks she cute, she ain'tin't all that,
you know, you could just see as though strong feelings
come up, you know, and need a place to release.
(19:03):
It's like as soon as you see something that you
can just go at, you know what I mean, and
you just do it. And well, I don't think my
mother intentionally is trying to hurt me. I think all
of her pain is passed on to me because she
doesn't know how to process it because of what she
dealt with, right, And so while I'm sure she is
so very proud of me, there is such a level
(19:24):
of resentment towards me that she expresses, which hurts me.
And it probably comes out for you and your relationships
with other women. For sure. It's really deep. Because a
lot of people don't have great relationships with their mothers.
That's probably where it first starts. It's like, if we
don't really know how to relate to our mother's, then
(19:46):
how do we learn to relate to ourselves and then
to others. If I don't have this connection with my mother,
I haven't been able to be seen through my mother's
eyes in a certain manner, you know, which that is
your first them in the mirror, you know what I mean?
And so then and trying to learn how to connect
to other women, and it's hard, hard, and I don't
(20:07):
know why those relationships are so difficult. Some of it
is like, you know, black women, we buy into that
strong black woman facade to a degree that's a detriment
to us to where we think we can weather and
withstand anything. And she's from a generation of women, like
a lot of black women who that's what they did.
They just sucked it up and kept moving right, And
it's really painful and hard, and we had to be
(20:31):
the people who were unfortunately absorbing their trauma right. And
because we had to absorb it, then we just continue
to pass it down. And once I realized, like all
the things I mean my mother happened when she was
eighteen years old, right, so you know I was seen right,
so I had to be there. She went through all
(20:53):
these stages of womanhood and you have to right so
hard mode was I'm not here to be your friend,
like we're not here to have this certain kind of relationship.
I'm here to protect you, to save you from yourself
and to make sure you don't do any of it up.
Did so because you know, there wasn't really an opening
for me to look at my mother as and this
is the person I tell everything and this is to
(21:15):
us to have I think the kind of the kind
of relationship that you guys have now, which is a
tremendous is that you have that open communication, but no
open communication right. It was like, got this, this is
what I gotta be right. I tried to do therapy
with my mom. It was crazy because she felt too
vulnerable and as for her, Black women think vulnerability is
(21:36):
weak and she was so weak and so seen and
she hated it. She did. She didn't want to see it.
She was like, I don't remember that happening. You know
how we bring up stuff, you like, but what about when?
And you know that didn't happen. You're like, but yeah,
if we're not saying that right now, it's cool. Like
I'm going through things that really hurt me when I
was a kid, and I want to talk about it.
And for her, it's an indictment on how she raised me.
(21:57):
She was like, you were alive, right, you you you're
doing good? Right. I'm like, Mom, no, I just want
to talk about what happened. Yeah, And it's even with data.
Was just the opposite because I wanted her to come
into therapy with me and she refused. You refused only
because I felt like, oh no, you're not about to
(22:18):
take me into that abyss of pain and drop me off.
And I was like, oh no, no, we don't need
to do that. I will figure out my own way
of how to deal with this, but it is it
is hard when you talk about, you know, as an indictment.
You know, sometimes when I listened to Willow, I have
to just be quiet because it doesn't matter what my
(22:41):
intention was. It's important for me to just listen. Have
your reality. As hurtful as it is, it's not about
trying to make excuses it's really or even explaining to
her at that moment, it's just about just listening, like,
you're right, you got to work. I think the friction
that my mother and I have now is because she
(23:03):
wants me to judge her by her intention, and I'm
judging her by her action. And I may realize that
the action was because she had a good intention, but
that's not always the way it comes out. And I'm like,
and she was like, oh, I was just trying to
protect you. That's her line to excuse everything. And I'm like,
that doesn't excuse this. And I get that you thought
this is what was happening, but let me tell you
(23:24):
what I was receiving. Because she feels like you're saying
she did something wrong, and it just feels like if
I'm saying anything just to express my thoughts, she goes
on defense. She thinks, no one wants to feel wrong. Yeah,
and it's just me saying that hurt. Let's work through
that moment. One of the things that I realized and
you're talking about when you said nobody wants to be wrong.
I think specifically for black women, they're always wrong. Word,
(23:49):
they're always wrong. That's the word. Let me have some empathy.
I have to keep that in mind, because you're right,
it's just hard, you know. And it's like for us
as black women, and even having this conversation is given
more understanding, even deeper understanding of why we as black
women could be so cruel to each other. It's not
you know, it's like we get judged on everything. We
(24:10):
get judged on how we look, we get judged on
our hair, we get judged on we can't even love
who we want to love. We got a white man
that loves us. That's the problem, you know, you know
what I'm her like, you're a girl. No, But it's
really like we can't even love when we want to love.
I can't even have a fake crush on Chris Evans
on the Internet, Chris, if you have a girlfriend, ignore
(24:34):
all this. But if you don't, if you don't like me,
you can't even have a fake crush on a white
boy without being a sell out and shame. But the
Twitter come at me, they told me, I sell out
to the culture over if you know what, Yeah, that's
(24:55):
why you wear are we even? You know? We're like
what you know? But you're right. We're always all, always wrong.
And I think that's where we as black women, we
gotta give each other more room. Yeah, each other more case.
It's like if we don't do it, if it don't
start with us, it's a done data. There's like we
(25:18):
literally can't make mistakes. I have a thing about that
in my own mind, like having to do the right thing,
like having to know what the right code of conduct is,
and like having an anxiety if I don't know what
the right choice is. It probably comes from that feeling
of like, oh, I was never right. So somebody needs
to explain to me how I grew up doing so
(25:42):
much wrong in my young adult days and as a mother,
and then now I've gotten to this place where I
think everything that I say is right. How did that happen? Yeah? Yeah,
that I think that I'm right all the time, and
that's where a lot of the judgment it comes from.
The judgment comes from insecurity, yes, but it also comes
(26:04):
with this false thinking that I have in my head
that my way is right and how I was raised
was the right way. How I dressed is the right way,
how you dressed is the wrong way because you need
to be doing what I'm telling you. Where did all
of that comes from? That's that's that's the truth. That's
a problem. Honestly, I need. I needed to tell that
(26:26):
because like, okay, so I saw you. Remember we were
so excited with our show. We went on gm A.
Mom was like, so you can wear that. I was like,
we were talking to Robin Wobbers when we're idols and
sports but that and then you cled you here that
way too, and I was just like my mother was
on me about dropping f bobs and I was just like,
I'm sorry. You remember the house I grew up. We
(26:49):
forget you think culturally it comes from this concept that
we have to be hard on each other because the
world is harder. That's what you would tell me. Yeah,
that's true, Like you better be hard as nails because
I had to learn even in raising my kids, I
had to get up off that because I was still
(27:10):
in that Baltimore Street mentality. I was like, oh no,
y'all can't do this and do that because it's too
danger and I was like hold up day in Calabasas
more every more, different, field is different. I just want
to bring up there is a difference between how black
moms will treat their daughters and their sons. Oh my good, alright,
(27:33):
let's get I just got to say it because it's real.
It's true. Let's get that. Let me tell me it's
I mean I you know, when I was younger, something
as simple as just like getting up at the right time.
It would be like you wait, like you better get
up to me and be like, oh no, no no, school
school is about to be you better get dressed. We
(27:53):
need to get that. And it would be like I'd
be in my room like okay, I gotta get it.
But then Jane is nul like not seeing Jaden would
say the different and he'd be like there's maybe one
moment and then I'd be ready at the door like okay,
here we go, and he's getting his shoes and he's
(28:13):
getting point she might have a point because I would
be like, no, you gotta be on it, you right,
So where is that right coming from? Its coming from?
Because I gotta be on it. We gotta be on
We have to hard, we have to work harder. And
(28:34):
then and then I'd be like, and his father will
deal with that, yeah, but you your mind, you know,
and so it is. I will say, I do be
getting up. I did getting to work on time, all right, Yeah,
because for me, I knew that she's gonna have it
twice as hard. I needed you to be strong because
(28:57):
I know what this world is like for us, it's
black women. But it works both way. It works because
whatever is your greatest strength is also your greatest weakness, right,
And so what happens is as mothers do they have
to protect us from all things that we're not even
thinking about. But when you drill that down, is that
we then we're not only internalize it, but we're going
(29:18):
to take that and do that to each other. I
think they have to harden us in the world, and
then we're never able to be vulnerable with each other. Right, yes,
right back were I just had a lightball, a lightball
moment because it's the same damn thing. So my fear
(29:43):
for having a black daughter and what I felt like
she needed to be in this world put me in
a position to be a little harder on her. And
that's probably how we are with each other. It's real,
it's a real deal. It's it's a real deal. Most
of it that raised with the level of harshness that
sets the expectation, And that's why we're so hard on
(30:05):
each other because in our own home, Yeah, like you're
wearing that, don't wear that because this kind of things
happen to people who wear that, like all those things
that we wind up repeating, and people would tell me,
people be like they'd be like, oh my gosh, like
why are you being so mean? And I'm like, do
you think this is me? I think that women have
to This is so hard to do because we're so
(30:25):
trained and socialized so differently. But we have to throw
that all out the window and and forget every single
thing that we have been taught and be willing to
be uncomfortable with one another, because that's the only time
that you really see any significant change. Everything in my
spirit told me that she was great, but I was
so uncomfortable being vulnerable and open and allowing her to
be my friend. And I have to be willing to
get out of that. And I still struggle with it
(30:47):
to this day. Um. Yeah, because it is a risk.
It's a risk. It's a risk, and we can't deny that. Yeah,
it's a risk, and you do have to allow yourself
an opportunity to get to know the women around you.
As women, we have to have more responsibility in regards
of how we take care of one another. But at
the same time, what we're asking men to do, we
(31:09):
need to do the same thing of course, as far
as respecting one another, you know, and and caring for
one another in a certain manner. What she taught me
was to hold the door open. Yeah, and I didn't
know how to do that. So here I am, as
a grown as adult, just now learning how to hold
the door open. This was a great table. That's what
(31:29):
I love about. Like, this was great because we started
in one direction and ended up going into it was
it really got Dave. It was awesome. That dog is
living a life. That's a very well behaved dog. My
dog would have been here, pan, right, He's like, what
y'all talking about me? I wouldn't, not even too, but
(31:53):
he's not poppy. You like cats, have three cats? She
has three? Do you not? Cat Laid cats are okay,
but I'm a dog. To join the red Table Talk
family and become a part of the conversation, follow us
at facebook dot com slash red table talk. Thanks for
listening to this episode of Red Table Talk podcast produced
(32:16):
by Facebook, Watch, Westbrook Audio, and I Heart Radio.
Hey, fam I'm Jada Pinkett Smith and this is the
Red Table Pop podcast all your favorite episodes from the
Facebook Watch show in audio produced by Westbrook Audio and
I Heart Radio. Please don't forget to rate and review
on Apple podcasts. On this Red Table talk what was
the worst betrayal by a woman friend? We as black
(00:22):
women give me so cruel to each other. We don't
even take care of our own. We don't talk about
it a lot. With the whole Mega Stallion situation, Jamal
Hill and Carrie Champion joined the table. People were trying
actively to pit us against each other. I had a
rough couple of years. It was bad. I didn't have
any friends for a raw conversation about how we as
(00:45):
women treat each other. Somebody who was close to me
was trying to take me out, and the pay mother's
passed to their daughters when you get let down that way,
it's just it's really really hard. So it hurts for
me to fill it for her. Today, we're doing a
(01:10):
show about mean girl. We can relate in so many
different ways. Have either of you ever been a mean girl?
I wouldn't say I'm a mean girl. I'm gonna tell
you what I am, and that's a petty bitch. I'm
a petty bitch because here's the thing. Now, I might
not say some mean things and I might not do
(01:32):
some mean things, but if you do something to me, baby,
let me tell you, I'm gonna hold on to it
and to the moment comes for you. And they'll be like, oh,
what did you what you need me? I at a
point in my life was just mean to everything because
I was hurting and I was angry and I was
(01:52):
going through a lot of stuff. People will say that
I'm me. They would definitely say that I'm me. That
there's a difference in the meanness. I'm not for the nonsense,
I'm not for the ble. Probably one of my worst
character defects is being judge gudgmental. I'm extremely judgmental, and
I actually just realized that it's my own insecurities. I
(02:15):
didn't even realize that that's where that judgment comes from,
you know. So what I don't like in somebody else
is what I don't like in myself. Real talk, I'm
definitely a work in progress. Well, we all are. Recently,
when Mega Stallion went through a very painful and personal trauma,
a disturbing reaction unfolded. Women came out in full force,
(02:39):
publicly mocking and criticizing and doubting Meg. Meg clapped back
at the hurtful gossip, urging women to check themselves before
being nasty to other women. It got us all really
thinking about how we as black women treat one another
and the roots of this toxic mean girl culture. It
was really jarring to me because it was almost like
(03:02):
we don't even take care of our own, right, So
that was that's really painful too. That way we are
as a culture are attacking one another absolutely, and even
we as black women understanding what we're up against culturally
and in society, right, and so it was really disheartening
to But were you guys really surprised, because I wasn't.
(03:23):
I kind of was. I kind of was considering that
it's coming from black women, right. We have some guests
that are going to join us today. I think we're
missing a big part of the story. I think everyone
knows this. The NBA is a business, So let me
get this straight. Sports anchors Carry Champion and Jamal Hill
started off his rivals, two black women competing for the
(03:45):
same high profile hoole spot. At ESPN carry got the job.
Even though they were pitted against each other, the two
forced an unlikely friendship, often defending one another when no
one else would. Now they've joined forces to co host
their own series. Welcome back to Sports, Jamal. We're still here.
(04:07):
We're obviously we're doing something, okay, proving sisterhood can prevail.
We're so exciting you were having coming here with them
last We're so happy to have you here. We were
(04:30):
about every everything. So you started your relationship as rivals
for the same jobs. People were trying actively to pick
us against each other. My agent is in my ear.
He's like, look, just stay away from Jamal. She's supposed
to get this job, don't. I'm right right right, you know.
I'm just listening to all of this stuff. The streets
(04:51):
was talking social media and people are like, you should
have that job. It shouldn't be heard. And I just
didn't want that to be our story. So from the beginning,
I was like, she's gonna be my friend. Like the
job was really hard. It was very hard. I felt
very lonely. I felt afraid I didn't have any friends.
I feel like no one liked me, which because no
(05:11):
one did but she wasn't projecting, but she truly reached
out to me. Then was like, we're gonna go to dinner,
and I unwillingly went five minutes and she's like, let
me tell you what ain't treating you right? Let me
tell you who you work with, ain't nothing. The girls
don't like you. You need to demand better. They disrespecting you.
And I'm just like, oh, so much, everything right, because
(05:35):
at that point I was sort of a o G
in the system. So you know, I'm trying to break
her down. Let me give you what it is. And
it's like, I now understand why she totally would question
my motives. Because sometimes when you get in that kind
of position and then there's somebody else, another woman that's like,
oh do this, they might be plotting on the load.
My first thought is to be skeptical. Why are you
(05:55):
sitting down immediately telling me don't like this person? And
like this person, I'm grown, I'm growing as hell whenever
I want to like. So we have this dinner. I
walk away feeling so confused because her spirit is so pure, right,
I like her, but then I'm like, day, she's talking
so much. She continuously reached out to me after that dinner,
she went out of her way to be kind to me. Um,
(06:15):
I had had a rough couple of years. I'm not lying.
It was bad. People try to divide us. I mean,
please consistently, she would tell me, without gossiping. Yeah, they
don't like you. Why why do you think no one
liked you? And you all can relate to this, like
I like to be great at what I do right,
and I'm a hard worker, and I demand a lot
(06:36):
for myself and from others. And if you present and
look a certain way, you're coming in with a little
skirt and high heels, people like, who do you think
she is? And I'm aware of it, so I and
I don't change who I am because that's who I
am at my core. But I can count on my
hands how many friends I've ever had that have never
been jealous of me in any moment I tried to
throw me under the bus, and she was truly one
of them. Jamal, tell me why it was so important,
(06:57):
like for you because you're like, no, she's gonna be
my right, because sometimes that's what it takes. You talk
about the dedication. Sometimes it's like oh no, no, no, no,
we know only two black women here doing this thing.
We're not We're not about to do that. I've just
had seen too many situations, especially there at ESPN, where
people really started battling and hating each other and it
(07:18):
turned out it was really over nothing, over nonsense. As
black women, we can't afford to do that as it is.
It's hard enough once we get into that room, Once
we get to that position, we bring in a whole
bunch of battles with us. Right, So what do I
look like with this woman who's come to ESPN getting
this position being her enemy? I think in a lot
of environments that we get into as black female professionals, unfortunately,
(07:43):
we're made to believe it can only be one. It's like, no,
we only have room for one. I think it's fighting
for that acceptance. It's feeling like you had to fight
so hard to get that specific kind of acceptance to
be in this specific position, and then when someone else
comes in, like, oh, no, you're not gonna wipe away
all the work that I did to get myself here,
(08:05):
did you wipe I was talking to one of our
young producers here. One of the things that she brought
up is the idea of survival over sisterhood, survival before sisterhood,
And this is one of those instances where you were like, no, no,
(08:26):
we can survive systems. Well, I don't think. I don't
think people get that. That's powerful, and that's why we
find ourselves in competition with other women, other women. Now, Jamale,
you went through your own firestorm. Yeah, and I had
some thoughts about our president that I shared on Twitter
and let everybody know, and it created quite a firestorm
and professionally put me at risk. And you know, the
(08:49):
whole country if I like, the whole country was bad
at me. The president called for me to be fired.
I think that's one of the more outrageous comments that
anyone could make, and certainly something that I think is
firable offense about ESPN. No one had her back, no one,
like I can count on my hands how many people
had her back within the system. Oh yeah, listen. I
would just send a tweet. I would just say I
(09:11):
got your back, or what's happening isn't right. I would
tweet very comfortably because the lack of support from black
women was so crystal clear at that moment. This woman
had made this company millions and give them straight credibility.
They had put her in a position to win and
survive and thrive and one hint of controversy, and they
(09:32):
took that all away from her and they and while
she left on her own accord because she couldn't thrive
there for her old mental you know, sanity. The way
that they treated her, the same people who loved her
one day next day. I have never seen anything like
it in my life. That's how it goes. But it
(09:53):
was that kind of support is why I was able
to weather all the things that happened. And that's when
you find out who really is now for you, because
that's when you really find out who's not. Yes. So
with the whole Mega stallion situation, I think really the
disappointing part is just with black women period. We can
be so hard and cruel to one another. I'm not
(10:14):
surprised that so much of that energy, unfortunately came from
Black women. It's our inability to see the humanity and
each other. We're begging the world to see us in
a particular way, but we don't see it in each other.
We don't and it is for me so frustrating and
painful that we're begging for the world to to see
(10:35):
us in a certain manner, and we just we can't
offer it for ourselves. And my belief is that if
we can't give it to ourselves, we never we can't
expect it, right. I just feel like it's it's such
a distance, you know, between being a black woman and
her self love. There's there's this big chasm between them two,
(10:56):
you know what I mean. And a lot of it
is the way we've been socialized, as I love it
is the way we've been socialized in our own home.
Is that, honestly, some of our mothers have been really
responsible for the toxic relationships we have with other women.
It's like how we hear our mothers talk about other
black women don't trust her, she ain't this and that.
Like we'll hear them have a full scale conversation with
(11:18):
another black woman that's their friend. As soon as they
get off the phone, they someday like it would mean
we see it right, and we take those lessons of
mistrust that are bred in our own home, and then
when we get out in the world and we're looking
(11:39):
at another black woman, instead of celebrating her finding something
great about it, we'll be like she thinks she cute
with them shoes? What about this? What about that? I
think it's how we're loved. Like I know, for me
not having a father around, really, it's hard for me
to be vulnerable. It's hard for me to love you
and trust you and be around you and say who
I am and love myself because I think lot of
(12:00):
the times the women I see who have self love,
how to father around to remind them and love them
and their first lessons of beauty. Those of us who
had to grow up without a father. But we grow
up in violent neighborhoods and we have to put up
these walls and this armor, and then you click up
with a group of girls and then you end up
being you know, you get betrayed. We come from so
(12:22):
many worlds of mistrust and trauma that it makes it
very difficult. It's how we've all been taught. Eventually, the
press begin to take on the traits of the oppressor,
and that is that's where we're mirroring the patriarchy and
the sexism and the misogynists and all of that that
we have to deal with. We're just turning it on
each other. And unfortunately we've been conditioned this way for
(12:45):
so long. We literally spend a lot of time on learning.
That is my biggest piece of advice to people out
there is that if you want to be different, if
you want to be the change you want to see,
as they say, you have to unlearn, okay, and you
have to be willing to be self aware enough to
know where you're vulnerable, where your most pettitous. You have
(13:07):
to be realistic about the ugly that that's the only one, right.
We also got to be honest that a lot of
us are doing performative sisterhood, which is straight up sisterhood,
because we have, certainly all of us have encountered those
(13:27):
women who you know, at the women's conference, at the
you know, little get together, they're like woman is black man,
that being the most trifling backstabbing to remember that one time,
when that one time, like like they all there too,
it looks good. They're only doing this because we used
to sounds because but like, deep down their actions they
(13:51):
are not supporting other women at all. We have at
our jobs. Remember when the athletes would be friendly with us,
right and then the wives start talking like hey girl,
hey girl, and I'm like wait. We'd be like wait,
do they like us to do everything? They're trying to
sleep with their man, or they'll say that when they're there. Yeah,
you see that same woman out socially somewhere else, and
she will treat you like listen here, I just look.
(14:18):
I might be getting a little five met the journalism
here because and you will recognize, like, no one's perfect,
but you will recognize the sisterhood. We don't do that.
What would you say was the worst betrayal by a
woman friend? I had a cousin, actually who have but
we've settled our differences now. She like developed super faster
(14:42):
than me, and she had like the long flowing hair
and my hair. You know, I got the afro vibe,
you know what I mean. I was super skinny. I
was like tomboy. And I would always tell her the
dudes that I liked. Like, I was always be like,
oh my god, he's okay. Every time she went for that,
she would date him every time. And so after like
(15:03):
three times, I was like, you know what, Ye're the
dumb one. Keep her, you keep on telling her she's
going for those guys. Well, I'll tell you I had
a girlfriend who brought some dudes to my house who
stole my I d and got my name caught up
in a credit card scamp somebody who was close to me,
(15:25):
like trying to take me out. Yeah, that that goes
to show you how like envy. You know, I really
feel like a lot of us get so riddled with envy,
like envy or justify so much like it's one of
(15:46):
the most destructior. There's no resolving, there's nov it's envy.
There's nothing, you know, and there's a lot of that
that just happens amongst women. What about you too. I
don't have to say this within context because I don't
I don't want the headline to be she said her
(16:07):
mother betrayed her right and so but that is probably
my deepest betrayal. You know, my mother is a recovering
addict um and we went through a lot when I
was growing up, and um, you know, there were some
incidents that we had where I felt, um, you know, like, oh,
surely I know, you know she's got a bad drug habit,
(16:27):
but they won't go there. And when it went there,
it just left me with this incredible sense of disappointment
and to be that vulnerable and then for it to
happen with a parent. I think it trained you the
rest of your life. And so, unfortunately, one of the
things that I still struggle with is that it is
very hard for me to be vulnerable. I have repaired
our relationship. She's great, but I think a lot of
(16:49):
the betrayal I experienced with her growing up unfortunately. Um
you know, my therapist said this to me one day,
and it really sat home with me, is that childhood
lasts forever. It lasts forever, and so I didn't realize
that until I got good and grown and much more
self aware and much more um comfortable going into those
deep parts that I realized that because of that sense
(17:12):
of betrayal, it impacted how I was able to even
have certain friendships. Not a lot of people get here
because I learned that blockade early. So once I experienced
that sense of betrayal, it didn't fortunately stay with me,
and I'm trying to unlearn that. So I don't always
keep people there when you get let down that way.
It's just it's really really hard. Well that's my story too.
(17:36):
I mean, you know, we've had a lot of healing,
but it does you know, your childhood stayed with you
and you just be like, God, damn it, get away.
I thought that. Yes, So what are you feeling over there?
I can Yeah, it hurts for me to feel it
(17:57):
from Yeah. One of the things her and I bond
with the most is our childhood and our parents, and
we tell the same story. Yeah, scary will be like
remember when you were seven years old your mom told
you to go make a drink and you're like that,
I'm seven drink mom. Or saying things that hurt you
(18:20):
because they don't see you hurts. Yeah. I think this
brings up a lot in the sense of like what
we deal with as a community. We can sit in
this pain and feel it, and you can imagine that
people who don't have a way of working it out right,
(18:41):
you can see how they can strike out at other
people for their anger, their disappointment, their insecurities just flare up.
So if you come in and you've got them pretty
legs somewhere she thinks she cute, she ain'tin't all that,
you know, you could just see as though strong feelings
come up, you know, and need a place to release.
(19:03):
It's like as soon as you see something that you
can just go at, you know what I mean, and
you just do it. And well, I don't think my
mother intentionally is trying to hurt me. I think all
of her pain is passed on to me because she
doesn't know how to process it because of what she
dealt with, right, And so while I'm sure she is
so very proud of me, there is such a level
(19:24):
of resentment towards me that she expresses, which hurts me.
And it probably comes out for you and your relationships
with other women. For sure. It's really deep. Because a
lot of people don't have great relationships with their mothers.
That's probably where it first starts. It's like, if we
don't really know how to relate to our mother's, then
(19:46):
how do we learn to relate to ourselves and then
to others. If I don't have this connection with my mother,
I haven't been able to be seen through my mother's
eyes in a certain manner, you know, which that is
your first them in the mirror, you know what I mean?
And so then and trying to learn how to connect
to other women, and it's hard, hard, and I don't
(20:07):
know why those relationships are so difficult. Some of it
is like, you know, black women, we buy into that
strong black woman facade to a degree that's a detriment
to us to where we think we can weather and
withstand anything. And she's from a generation of women, like
a lot of black women who that's what they did.
They just sucked it up and kept moving right, And
it's really painful and hard, and we had to be
(20:31):
the people who were unfortunately absorbing their trauma right. And
because we had to absorb it, then we just continue
to pass it down. And once I realized, like all
the things I mean my mother happened when she was
eighteen years old, right, so you know I was seen right,
so I had to be there. She went through all
(20:53):
these stages of womanhood and you have to right so
hard mode was I'm not here to be your friend,
like we're not here to have this certain kind of relationship.
I'm here to protect you, to save you from yourself
and to make sure you don't do any of it up.
Did so because you know, there wasn't really an opening
for me to look at my mother as and this
is the person I tell everything and this is to
(21:15):
us to have I think the kind of the kind
of relationship that you guys have now, which is a
tremendous is that you have that open communication, but no
open communication right. It was like, got this, this is
what I gotta be right. I tried to do therapy
with my mom. It was crazy because she felt too
vulnerable and as for her, Black women think vulnerability is
(21:36):
weak and she was so weak and so seen and
she hated it. She did. She didn't want to see it.
She was like, I don't remember that happening. You know
how we bring up stuff, you like, but what about when?
And you know that didn't happen. You're like, but yeah,
if we're not saying that right now, it's cool. Like
I'm going through things that really hurt me when I
was a kid, and I want to talk about it.
And for her, it's an indictment on how she raised me.
(21:57):
She was like, you were alive, right, you you you're
doing good? Right. I'm like, Mom, no, I just want
to talk about what happened. Yeah, And it's even with data.
Was just the opposite because I wanted her to come
into therapy with me and she refused. You refused only
because I felt like, oh no, you're not about to
(22:18):
take me into that abyss of pain and drop me off.
And I was like, oh no, no, we don't need
to do that. I will figure out my own way
of how to deal with this, but it is it
is hard when you talk about, you know, as an indictment.
You know, sometimes when I listened to Willow, I have
to just be quiet because it doesn't matter what my
(22:41):
intention was. It's important for me to just listen. Have
your reality. As hurtful as it is, it's not about
trying to make excuses it's really or even explaining to
her at that moment, it's just about just listening, like,
you're right, you got to work. I think the friction
that my mother and I have now is because she
(23:03):
wants me to judge her by her intention, and I'm
judging her by her action. And I may realize that
the action was because she had a good intention, but
that's not always the way it comes out. And I'm like,
and she was like, oh, I was just trying to
protect you. That's her line to excuse everything. And I'm like,
that doesn't excuse this. And I get that you thought
this is what was happening, but let me tell you
(23:24):
what I was receiving. Because she feels like you're saying
she did something wrong, and it just feels like if
I'm saying anything just to express my thoughts, she goes
on defense. She thinks, no one wants to feel wrong. Yeah,
and it's just me saying that hurt. Let's work through
that moment. One of the things that I realized and
you're talking about when you said nobody wants to be wrong.
I think specifically for black women, they're always wrong. Word,
(23:49):
they're always wrong. That's the word. Let me have some empathy.
I have to keep that in mind, because you're right,
it's just hard, you know. And it's like for us
as black women, and even having this conversation is given
more understanding, even deeper understanding of why we as black
women could be so cruel to each other. It's not
you know, it's like we get judged on everything. We
(24:10):
get judged on how we look, we get judged on
our hair, we get judged on we can't even love
who we want to love. We got a white man
that loves us. That's the problem, you know, you know
what I'm her like, you're a girl. No, But it's
really like we can't even love when we want to love.
I can't even have a fake crush on Chris Evans
on the Internet, Chris, if you have a girlfriend, ignore
(24:34):
all this. But if you don't, if you don't like me,
you can't even have a fake crush on a white
boy without being a sell out and shame. But the
Twitter come at me, they told me, I sell out
to the culture over if you know what, Yeah, that's
(24:55):
why you wear are we even? You know? We're like
what you know? But you're right. We're always all, always wrong.
And I think that's where we as black women, we
gotta give each other more room. Yeah, each other more case.
It's like if we don't do it, if it don't
start with us, it's a done data. There's like we
(25:18):
literally can't make mistakes. I have a thing about that
in my own mind, like having to do the right thing,
like having to know what the right code of conduct is,
and like having an anxiety if I don't know what
the right choice is. It probably comes from that feeling
of like, oh, I was never right. So somebody needs
to explain to me how I grew up doing so
(25:42):
much wrong in my young adult days and as a mother,
and then now I've gotten to this place where I
think everything that I say is right. How did that happen? Yeah? Yeah,
that I think that I'm right all the time, and
that's where a lot of the judgment it comes from.
The judgment comes from insecurity, yes, but it also comes
(26:04):
with this false thinking that I have in my head
that my way is right and how I was raised
was the right way. How I dressed is the right way,
how you dressed is the wrong way because you need
to be doing what I'm telling you. Where did all
of that comes from? That's that's that's the truth. That's
a problem. Honestly, I need. I needed to tell that
(26:26):
because like, okay, so I saw you. Remember we were
so excited with our show. We went on gm A.
Mom was like, so you can wear that. I was like,
we were talking to Robin Wobbers when we're idols and
sports but that and then you cled you here that
way too, and I was just like my mother was
on me about dropping f bobs and I was just like,
I'm sorry. You remember the house I grew up. We
(26:49):
forget you think culturally it comes from this concept that
we have to be hard on each other because the
world is harder. That's what you would tell me. Yeah,
that's true, Like you better be hard as nails because
I had to learn even in raising my kids, I
had to get up off that because I was still
(27:10):
in that Baltimore Street mentality. I was like, oh no,
y'all can't do this and do that because it's too
danger and I was like hold up day in Calabasas
more every more, different, field is different. I just want
to bring up there is a difference between how black
moms will treat their daughters and their sons. Oh my good, alright,
(27:33):
let's get I just got to say it because it's real.
It's true. Let's get that. Let me tell me it's
I mean I you know, when I was younger, something
as simple as just like getting up at the right time.
It would be like you wait, like you better get
up to me and be like, oh no, no no, school
school is about to be you better get dressed. We
(27:53):
need to get that. And it would be like I'd
be in my room like okay, I gotta get it.
But then Jane is nul like not seeing Jaden would
say the different and he'd be like there's maybe one
moment and then I'd be ready at the door like okay,
here we go, and he's getting his shoes and he's
(28:13):
getting point she might have a point because I would
be like, no, you gotta be on it, you right,
So where is that right coming from? Its coming from?
Because I gotta be on it. We gotta be on
We have to hard, we have to work harder. And
(28:34):
then and then I'd be like, and his father will
deal with that, yeah, but you your mind, you know,
and so it is. I will say, I do be
getting up. I did getting to work on time, all right, Yeah,
because for me, I knew that she's gonna have it
twice as hard. I needed you to be strong because
(28:57):
I know what this world is like for us, it's
black women. But it works both way. It works because
whatever is your greatest strength is also your greatest weakness, right,
And so what happens is as mothers do they have
to protect us from all things that we're not even
thinking about. But when you drill that down, is that
we then we're not only internalize it, but we're going
(29:18):
to take that and do that to each other. I
think they have to harden us in the world, and
then we're never able to be vulnerable with each other. Right, yes,
right back were I just had a lightball, a lightball
moment because it's the same damn thing. So my fear
(29:43):
for having a black daughter and what I felt like
she needed to be in this world put me in
a position to be a little harder on her. And
that's probably how we are with each other. It's real,
it's a real deal. It's it's a real deal. Most
of it that raised with the level of harshness that
sets the expectation, And that's why we're so hard on
(30:05):
each other because in our own home, Yeah, like you're
wearing that, don't wear that because this kind of things
happen to people who wear that, like all those things
that we wind up repeating, and people would tell me,
people be like they'd be like, oh my gosh, like
why are you being so mean? And I'm like, do
you think this is me? I think that women have
to This is so hard to do because we're so
(30:25):
trained and socialized so differently. But we have to throw
that all out the window and and forget every single
thing that we have been taught and be willing to
be uncomfortable with one another, because that's the only time
that you really see any significant change. Everything in my
spirit told me that she was great, but I was
so uncomfortable being vulnerable and open and allowing her to
be my friend. And I have to be willing to
get out of that. And I still struggle with it
(30:47):
to this day. Um. Yeah, because it is a risk.
It's a risk. It's a risk, and we can't deny that. Yeah,
it's a risk, and you do have to allow yourself
an opportunity to get to know the women around you.
As women, we have to have more responsibility in regards
of how we take care of one another. But at
the same time, what we're asking men to do, we
(31:09):
need to do the same thing of course, as far
as respecting one another, you know, and and caring for
one another in a certain manner. What she taught me
was to hold the door open. Yeah, and I didn't
know how to do that. So here I am, as
a grown as adult, just now learning how to hold
the door open. This was a great table. That's what
(31:29):
I love about. Like, this was great because we started
in one direction and ended up going into it was
it really got Dave. It was awesome. That dog is
living a life. That's a very well behaved dog. My
dog would have been here, pan, right, He's like, what
y'all talking about me? I wouldn't, not even too, but
(31:53):
he's not poppy. You like cats, have three cats? She
has three? Do you not? Cat Laid cats are okay,
but I'm a dog. To join the red Table Talk
family and become a part of the conversation, follow us
at facebook dot com slash red table talk. Thanks for
listening to this episode of Red Table Talk podcast produced
(32:16):
by Facebook, Watch, Westbrook Audio, and I Heart Radio.
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