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January 16, 2023 27 mins

Erika and Whitney return! In this special bonus episode, the co-directors discuss their latest adventures, including the PBS premiere of their reparations documentary, The Big Payback. And, with a little help from NAACP President Derrick Johnson, they dissect the shaky state of reparations. Can a flood of burgeoning local reparations movements supercharge the perpetually landlocked HR40 initiative in congress? Or will a new strategy, and an executive order from The White House, finally right the rocky ship of reparations? 

Make sure to check out The Big Payback film on the PBS Video app. Streaming free until April 15th.

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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
I'm Erica Alexander and I'm Whitney. Now welcome to reparations
The Big Payback, a production of Color Farm Media, I
Heart Radio, and The Black Effect Podcast Network. So here
we are. Yeah, here we are, back in the saddle,
back in the saddle. I'm glad we came back here
to celebrate our big premiere of The Big Payback documentary.

(00:25):
I mean, we've come full circle. Absolutely, it's really exciting
to be back here talking about this. I mean, when
I met you what three and a half almost four
years ago, the idea that we'd be now here four
years later talking about the premiere of the documentary, that
we would have done a podcast. You're not doing a
follow up episode to the podcast. I wouldn't believed it.

(00:45):
But uh, it certainly has been quite a year. It's
been a big year, and so congratulations to us, dude,
and to everyone who worked on It's been a real
push to get here. I have a hernia to prove it. Actually,
I'm not kidding about that. I do. But anyway, I'm
excited to talk about our film. But before we do,
let's talk about what you've been doing since we've been
gone all this time. What have you been up to.

(01:06):
As I said, it's been a pretty intense year, you know,
I look about you know, here we are in January.
Last January, we were pushing to finish the end of
the film, wrapping it up, scoring it and mixing it,
coloring it, getting it ready for Tribeca, launching it Tribeca.
That big show that we did at the Apollo Theater
in New York, which was so big. That was sexy,
wasn't it great? That was one of my my favorite events.

(01:28):
Free event on June tenth, the big payback at the
Apollo Theater. That was a lot of fun. It's pretty awesome,
very awesome. And to the people who came out on
Father's Day, by the way to do that, that was great.
They came out for me, No, they came out for
Robin Bruce Simmons. But that's another story. It's all good though,
and yees. So then as you know, I'm working on
another film. Was not a director on White Sharks. I

(01:51):
know that that's sometimes well, you you know, you think
a lot of the white sharks, both quoth, the finned
kind and the two legged kind, but this is about
the finn kind that we're doing for uh, for a
major streamer, and um, you know the projects working on
a Korea so doing that, kids going back to school,
kids coming out of school, coming back home, which is

(02:11):
always like Europe, Papa Papa three times over. And now
what's so exciting. We're getting ready for the broadcast and
streaming launch of our film, The Big Payback on PBS
is Independent Lens. That's right, really excited about that. I've
been busy too, you know. I mean, well, you're always

(02:32):
I've been to. I've been busy to you know, you're
always busy. When iome my messages Erica, they're all like
Erica Alexander's assistant, and it's like, who's like doing your sean,
who's doing your schedule? Well, listen, I appreciate hard work
and to do this. I think it's important that people
understand that we're doing all of these things while we
live life and we have Really let's get a run
down what you've been doing over the last year. If

(02:54):
I was making they'd be proud of me because I've
had several jobs. I've had several jobs. Check this. I've
done four television series, five movies, including co directing The
Big Payback with you another audio series. We did really
well with that among a ton of other things to survive.
I even got a chance to watch a few movies,
you know, actually go out and do that. I'm a
little tired just thinking about it. The Renaissance wom but

(03:16):
I am. And by the way, since then, the world
has moved Congress. They've even had another attempt at an
insurrection kind of you know. McCarthy is, um, can you
believe that? That's freaky? Our latest export to Brazil. McCarthy is, yes,
how the storm a capital. This is nuts. It just
shows you how connected the United States is the world,

(03:37):
how influential it is. It really matters what happens here. Absolutely,
Just I just want to go back to one thing.
I just wanted to get your thoughts on what it
was like, after three night years to see that film
in the theater for the first time. It was a
beautiful moment. My mother came in for it, and our friends,
and it's also was my directorial debut with you, and

(03:58):
so I have to thank you because you taught me
a lot about directing films and specifically documentaries and how
to manage the process. You know, I have a lot
to learn in those areas, But I was as proud
that after everything that happened in and just everything we
had to do, including different podcasts, we were there and
we were in that moment, and I thought I looked

(04:19):
really sexy too, but I was I didn't think in
the moment that I really took it in like I
should have. But afterwards there was a lot of you know,
deep thoughts and a lot of grateful, gratitude thoughts. I
loved that. What about you, how did you feel? My
favorite moment, You know, you do this thing for a
lot of different reasons. My favorite moment, uh we launched
the film was I think I don't know if you
remember the second screening it TRACKBACKA a woman got up

(04:41):
using tears. She said, I feel like I just watched
the super Bowl and black people won boom, And that
was like the nicest compliment and he's ever given me
about a movie I've made, so I was really exciting. Wow,
that's a great moment. I mean, you know, it's beautiful
to have those moments, but we have to really deal
with the fact that if we can't even stop the

(05:01):
swarm in Congress of people breaking windows and doing those
type of things and we thought there would be a
lot of goodwill after the public lynching of George Floyd.
It doesn't seem to have had a lasting effect. And
I'm not being cynical when I say a murder seems
to get you like two years of progress, And that's
not funny. How that's like funny queer? Like, what gives?

(05:21):
Why the violent swings? What do white people want? What?
What will it take for white folks to stop being
day trippers to a struggle of blacks in America? And
how can we get this going? You know, it's funny
because I think I have sort of two feelings about Erica,
one in that are both exalted and disappointed. And exalted
in the sense that I had people in my life,

(05:43):
white people in my life talking to me about race
um in a way they never had during two thousand
and twenty in ways I never thought they would in
two thousand and twenty, and so it was so exciting
to finally see a big group of white Americans for
the first time actually glrappling with their relationship to race.
That disappointment, of course, comes from what you said. You know,
it's fades, It does fade, But that's always what it

(06:05):
is right two steps forward and nine ten steps back,
but you still have to like say, okay, well I
think we did get that point one ten percent forward. Yeah,
we keep offering excuses, and I think another excuse can't
cut it. After four years of no action on reparations,
I mean, we have nurses going on strike. That means
people aren't getting what they need on a basic level

(06:27):
inside of America, which should be able to at least
guarantee healthcare. I mean, reparations is a piece of it,
but we have so many things going on. Eric Alexander optimist.
As I said, you know earlier, I do really feel

(06:49):
the fact that when we started this project, HR forty
had been in committee for thirty years. Now it's thirty
two years never getting a vote. Our film covers them
finally having a debate, agreeing to debate HR for the
Reparations Bill in the Judiciary Committee, and voting an out
of committee after markup to take it to the floor.

(07:11):
So whenever you look around and feel depressed, there is
progress being made. Is it enough? No? But I do
feel like that, you know, we've moved the ball a
little bit. Yeah, a little bit. Yeah, that's I guess. Something. Well,
while we were doing other things in these talks, I
was invited to address the double a CP about storytelling
of all things. Well, you are a storyteller, I am.
And I caught up to them in Baltimore, Maryland, and

(07:32):
they were having their staff retreat there, so I got
a chance to talk to their executives questions about reparations.
When the big Juna, Derek Johnson steps out live and
in living color, so I took that chance to get
his take on whether this was really the right moment
for reparations in America and what do you say? A
whole lot to say. He was in a hurry, by

(07:52):
the way, so you know he was multitasking. He kind
of stopped and chopped it up with me, but yeah,
he was. He was on even gave a quick shout
out to the pioneers in this movement. Well, Derrick Johnson,
President and CEO of the n a CP. Preparation is
an important question that we must address in this country
for African Americans. Anytime you've had state sanctioned, this nation's

(08:13):
sanctions harm against our community, whether it's segregation, slavery, redlining,
or elimination out of the financial systems, we must make
whole all of the families and the descendates who have
been impacted. But reparation is also a global question because
global companies have also exploited the continent of Africa, exploited
African people, and displaced us in ways in which we

(08:35):
have been paralyzed in terms of our future aspirations. So
we are now positioned to do something about it. The
double a CP, when Conman Conyers began to stir up
this question around reparations through HR forty, but then a
CP supported the Republican New Africa was a part of
the group in Detroit at that time who begin to
push for this question. Ron Daniels has been on the

(08:55):
front line of this Amari Baraka Shoque LAMMBA. So it's
very important for us to not only recognized, to fight
this in front of us. To understand how we got
to this place. Well, you know, it's funny, and I
think that in order to understand the present, you always
need to understand the past. And I think that the
context of the story. So many people don't really understand
the context of the story, and that's something that we

(09:17):
really tried to do with the film, is to show
that this moment that where HR four he gets passed
out of committee, where Robin Ruth Simmons finally passes a
tax funded respirations bill, and Evans Illinois. It's a point
on a continuum, it's not a point in time. And
I think it's really important to understand that, understand what
it means. Yeah, for sure. I mean there have been
a lot of folks who have tried to pull this

(09:39):
bad boy up the mountaintop. But it's like taking a
trip with the Grinch, who still Christmas after he stole
all the toys and he's sitting on the mountain peak
watching the sunrise. Remember, poor Max's dog is exhausted from hauling.
There's lay up the hill. Okay, but you get the point.
So who's the dog in this in this scenario, and

(09:59):
who's the green sitting on the sled with all the presents?
I don't know the answer. I don't want to know
the answer. That you know the answer. They look like you.
They've got all the gifts and they're watching everybody suffering
who town. But you know, black people continue to move
on and get things done. That's a beautiful thing. But
that's a Christmas. Tell the grinch and all that I mean.

(10:19):
Derrick Johnson also had a few things to say about
the state owning the responsibility towards reparations. You think about
Dr King's book, While We Came Wait in this chapter
to Todays to Come, he didn't call it reparations, but
what he was advocating for for the state, the nation
to make whole African America's or what he called the

(10:40):
g I b of for poor people, a g I
BO that was similar to what they gave to world
with two veterans, but due to individuals who have been
displaced in ways out of the workforce because of mechanizations,
individuals who were discriminated against bocause of race, poor white
folks who have been explored as well. Even Dr King,
if you read that chapter, talks about the need for
this nation, through public policy, to address the harms the

(11:03):
injuries of African Americans and other individuals. I am absolutely
in supportive reparations. We have to do it decisively, we
have to do it smartly, and we need to be
clear and not create internal fights around the question. And
know that anytime you have state sponsored harm, there should
be state sponsors repair. That's called reparations. Yeah, I mean,

(11:23):
I agree that the state owns it. But the idea
that there's um not gonna be fight and argument and
discussion around such a complex project, I think is just
not realistic. I mean that was one of the things
that really really really was my education in making this
film is that, you know, in some ways it's easier
on the white side because if you believe you you
can just advocate for reparations, right, so I think the stense,

(11:45):
but on the black side actually being what it is,
who gets it in what form and what amount? These
are really serious, complex questions, and so the idea that
it's there's not going to be, you know, a debate
around the question or fight srongestion is just there's almost
be an American right to like actually not to to
not fight about something. Yeah. But you know, speaking of which,

(12:07):
you know, we never really talked about who was in
this film. You just mentioned it. The Alder woman, Robert
Ruth Simmons had these type of conversations and internal debates,
didn't she. Yeah, And I think that's what you know,
when when you watch the film, you'll see it's not
just all white people are against reparations. There's a lot
of white people for reparations. Not all black people are
for represations. There's a lot of black people against reparations.

(12:29):
There's also black people who think who don't agree on
Pan African reparations versus Ato's reparations. It's a really complicated equation.
And one of the things I really admire about Robin
and what I hope people can see in the film
is that in some ways, she made a complicated problem
simple two ways. The first thing she did is she
got people who agreed that reparations were needed, and people

(12:50):
would say, without deciding agreeing what that was, she agreed
that the money had to be earmarked for. And the
second thing is she created a process that led to
an under standing of what the reparations in her community
were needed. And it became sort of this logical road
to reparations for housing discrimination. Right. And then they dealt

(13:11):
with everything that happened with that. They had a great
historian to help them figure out what's going on. It's
going to be that way each time you go into
a different city. They got to figure out what can
be done locally and what people are really interested in addressing. Right, Yeah,
that's hopefully Again, the lesson of the film is that
every community is going to be different. Way to approach

(13:32):
is that how reparations are don Evanston is gonna be
different than it has come outed under Detroit, San Diego,
Jackson to the Mississippi. There's not a direct line between
slavery and every community. There's a line, but sometimes it's
a squiggly line. It's connected different things. And especially when
you start talking about the legacy of slavery and the
embedded structure that kept black people from participating fully in

(13:56):
both civic life and building wealth through American capital is
m It's in some form in every community, and hopefully
that people can see that this is a model for
how to get to what that is and then a
model for how to come up with a solution how
to address it. Speaking of models, we should talk about
Sheila Jackson Lee. Sheila Jackson Lee, Wow, you know uh

(14:17):
all this was going on, has officially called for an
executive order something that Biden would sign to bring HR
forty about and we could get on with the study.
Tell us what HR forty is again. HR forty is
a bill to study slavery and its legacy. How it's
impacted Black Americans and make appropriate remedies, recommend appropriate remedies

(14:42):
for dealing with those injuries and how to repair them.
But it's just a study bill. It's not a bill
that earmarks money. It's not a bill that says who
gets it, It's not a build says how much. And
this is what's always been so confusing about the resistance.
HR forty. It's just a bill to talk compotent, and
they're still huge resistant, right. And so I asked Derrick Johnson,

(15:05):
president of the c P, whether he supported an executive
order for HR forty. Well, we would like to see
the language of the executive order, but I think all
efforts are important to move in this direction. I'm also
watching when it's taken place in San Francisco, where's taking
place in the state of California, when they put other
that commission. Dr Amos Brown are San Francisco Branch president

(15:26):
is a part of leading that effort. So we're seeing
these type of efforts not only ever seen in Illinois,
but across the country because we recognize that that the
government has created impediments in various or African Americans that
truly live out what we call an American dream, and
we need to ensure that communities, families are made whole
because of those impediments. See, that's great. He loves an

(15:50):
executive order too, but he's interested in the language of it.
I think that's a big deal. Everybody's now saying the
down for Biden to bring about an executive order for
our forty, and I think that that's really the only
way that this is gonna done in the next couple years,
especially now with the Republican House, is that even though
Representative Jackson Lee had the votes, she had the votes
to pass out of the House, the leadership, as much

(16:12):
as I love Nancy Pelosi, did not bring it to
the floor. And I think they did not put the
floor because they were afraid of the mid terms. And
so now with the House and the hands of Republicans,
the only way that HR forty is going to happen
now is to an executive order. That's right, and that's
why my next question to Derek Johnson was very important.
Did he think that reparations would happen in our lifetime?

(16:33):
Freedom is a constant struggle, So it's not about what
we see, is about what we do to make sure
we are part of this continuum to ensure that our
future is a future of freedom in a way in
which our answers is only dreamed for. Wow, you know
what that makes me think about Erica is that it
also it's not only what our ancestors would dream of.
I also feel like it's what you're in my contemporaries

(16:54):
would dream of to actually live in a world where
reparations is taking place, and then you and I and
I think all black and white Americans could have a
different relationship with the other and actually built towards something
much more cohesive. So it's not just ancestors. I think
it's also for us as well, of course, and that's
what we're talking about. It's that freedom must be a reality.

(17:18):
But in our building of what reparations could provide for
the world, it's all a dream right now, and that
we're dream and hope and all these things keep coming
up when we talk about reparations, which I think is
kind of beautiful because it says that we're striving for something,
But it's also mixed with the hard facts of what

(17:39):
I think my people deserve. So that's why we have
so many I think wide swings, you know, people who
are for it and people who are against it. But
right in the middle there is freedom and dream and
all the beautiful things we say we can be in America.
But you know what we're always going to come up against.
The obstacle in the obstacle now is that we need

(18:01):
help from white people. Didn't you ask him about them,
you know, Whitney. I did ask him that. I wondered,
how can we build a coalition with white folks? And
he had a good answer for it, be focused on
public policy and not be distracted by tribalism and mothering.
Mothering is a distraction around the questions of public policy.
And if we are focused on public policy, we are
up to uphold that social contract we call the Constitution.

(18:24):
Is not a one community responsibility, is a joint responsibility
of all citizens of this country. And therefore we must
be a coalitions coalitions. Everyone always says that word coalitions.
What is the coalition? What's a white coalition? In fact,
what's the coalition? Damn? A coalition? Why I think about

(18:44):
it is it's a group that shares goals but don't
necessarily share motivations. And so you have to learn how
well done with me? How to find people that you
share goals with and the idea of your motivations are
kind of irrelevant. And I think there's so much time
people focus on who we are and where we're coming from.

(19:05):
I can work with you towards something that we both
agree as important without necessarily completely understanding you or your experience.
And I think that's what's really critical in this is
that white Americans and Black Americans who mean well and
want reparations are moving towards it for two very different reasons. Okay,
I think that's interesting because Robert Luce Simmons, who's an

(19:26):
alder woman, and Eviston had to make a coalition among
the council people. Was it um five white council people
to three black? But they got it through. And that
was the amazing thing. That's coalition building, isn't it? And
that isactly what I said, is that the people of
the fifth Ward and the people the third ward have
very different motivations for wanting to get it done, but

(19:47):
they did come together and get it done. That's cool.
That's what we need more of that. Now you're getting
all like warm and fuzzy on me, so you're start singing.
Imagine soon. No, really well hopeful. I guess that's optimistic.
You know, the thing that they get the biggest pushback for.
And there are people in this film that thought that

(20:10):
they weren't responsible for what happened in the past, and
why should they be held responsible for it? So what's
the answer to that when white people say that? And
I got a chance to ask Derek Johnson this question,
because I think that's what people struggle with, is how
do you answer that in a modern day that people
who live here, whether they came after slavery or live

(20:31):
now because they were born after slavery, have any responsibility
for the past, wrong or right? And uh, I think
he had a really good answer on it. We keep
pushing because our truth is the truth, and the truth
is what we need to step on and stand on
firmly to ensure that we are made hold as a
community for our future. You know, those are really nice sentiments,

(20:53):
and I agree that we have to keep pushing for
the truth. But I also think that sometimes focusing on
responsibility about the past is not the question. It's not
about responsibility for the past, it's about responsibility to the present.
And that I think if you say, okay, I'm responsible
for this thing it happened. No, you're responsible for the
conditions of the community that you live in now. And

(21:15):
if you believe that things are unjust and you want
to change it, then you have to come together and
work for change. Yeah, but it's white people are saying that,
and they don't believe that there's have any relationship to
what you just said. No, but I think that there
that's because I think they're focusing on the wrong thing.
They're saying, oh, this is in the past. They're not
looking at the problem now and saying, you know, whether

(21:38):
or not I created that, I live in this unequal present,
and if I believe in justice, I need to address
the injuries that exist from the past now if I
want a better future, right, I think that's hard going
to be hard. So no matter how you put it,
Because if people don't think they're affected by the past

(21:58):
at all and they're doing something for the people who
so called are affected by it, I don't think they
realize that they have been injured and that there's injury
to themselves and their future. Their family and everything around
them is being pulled down because we haven't addressed it.
And that's what I'd say to white people that if
you don't think you're being affected by the past, you are.

(22:19):
If you're seeing systemic things happening in the society that
you think are just affecting people based on whether they're
just newly here or they have a different color, or
there might just be inequity and inequality baked into every society,
you're not really understanding how systems work. That if one
part of the population is being affected unjustly and you

(22:42):
can't look at the systemic issues or what caused it
and say, you know, we have a responsibility to address
it no matter who did it, then you also aren't
looking at how this thing might affect you. And I
think over and over again, if we look at the cities,
if you look at the things that happen inside of
rule areas, if we look at all sorts of things

(23:03):
that African Americans have issue with, we'd see that they
are overwhelmingly affecting the lives of all Americans. And we
have to see ourselves not only in this fight for
the people, but in a fight for our own lives.
If you see someone drowning Erica, you don't not help
them because you don't think you're responsible for them fully
and maybe you push them in, maybe you didn't, but

(23:25):
the fact is that that person is part of your
community and needs help, and by you taking that action,
you will be doing something not only for them, but
for you. And if you don't take action, I think
you will continue to exacerbate your own injury. And that
sounds really weird and kind of like, uh, you know, countertuitive.
But if you don't take action, you injure yourself absolutely.

(23:48):
And I also think over and over again, black people
have been trying to save white people from themselves. And
I know that's a harsh thing to say, but the
drowning person is not the black person, is the white person.
You get a chance to save yourself, And if you
think that the other person is drowning in, you're not
trust and believe it is you drowning. Black people are
used to doggy paddling, you know, and floating on our backs,

(24:15):
you know. The weird part is and I love the
water metaphor maybe because that's what Martin Luther king City says.
We might have gotten here on different ships, but we
all in the same boat now, and that's real. So
to sort of like bring this you know back around, Eric,
I guess the thing is is that we're at the
end of this particular journey, right, the particular journey of
this film, and in some ways you arbitrarily in the story, right,

(24:39):
we arbitrarily into this story at a particular moment in time.
But the story goes on, and UM really excited for
people to see this film, and I'm even more exciting
to see where Robin were represented, Jackson Lee and where
the movement goes next. That's true. But you know what, Unfortunately,
like a really great film, this is a franchise. So

(25:01):
this film has not ended. Now this is part one,
and I love that you said that this film is
not just a film. It's a tool and people are
using it to have conversations and to build their own
reparations programs within cities. They're also able to talk about
it and screen it. And we're doing a debate series
that people should know about and we're really excited about that.

(25:23):
This debate series called The Big Payback. We'll go through
HBCUs and predominantly white institutions and all over American communities
and we'll be able to talk about something that people
for a long time have been afraid of and thought
was controversial, but we're able to normalize discussing reparations and
see if we can get the help of the best
minds and stoke the fires about this and get in

(25:47):
there really have some ownership of it. And so that's
why I'm excited. This thing has been great. It's been
great doing it with you. Thank you so much for
your hard work. And I think we should give a
really great shout out to the filmmaking ben are none
we can not do without us, Anne Parker, Melissa Chris Kevin.

(26:08):
I mean, there's been so many people who made this
film possibly and also the other thing I would ask
you area, where can people get more information? Oh, they
should go to the Big Payback movie dot com. They
should also go to First Repair dot Org Robin Ruth
Simmons organization. If they're interested in doing something in their city.
There's going to be a full discussion guide about the
film and also how to make it happen yourself. I

(26:32):
think that's cool, that's sexy. We always talk about the
power of the biggest nation, which is imagination, and I
think that's what we need to do right now in
this moment, is imagine a world and then make it happen.
See you, Whitney Reparations. The Big Payback is a production

(26:53):
of color Farm Media, I Heart Radio and The Black
Effect Podcast Network in association with Best Case Studio. For
more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the I heart
Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your
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1. On Purpose with Jay Shetty

1. On Purpose with Jay Shetty

I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!

2. 24/7 News: The Latest

2. 24/7 News: The Latest

Today’s Latest News In 4 Minutes. Updated Hourly.

3. The Joe Rogan Experience

3. The Joe Rogan Experience

The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.

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