Kill 'Em All: Metallica vs. Megadeth

Before there was Megadeth, Dave Mustaine was the guitarist in a promising San Francisco thrash metal band called Metallica. And then he was fired for being an obnoxious drunk, a slight compounded by the fact that all the other members of Metallica were also obnoxious drunks. From then on, Mustaine was obsessed with getting his revenge, and he formed Megadeth with the purpose of dethroning Metallica from the top of the thrash metal heap. Alas, it proved difficult to compete with the most successful metal band in history. No matter what Mustaine did, he was destined for second place. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Rivals is a production of I Heart Radio. Hello everyone,
and welcome to Rivals, the show about music, beefs and
feuds and long simmering resentments between musicians. I'm Steve and

(00:20):
I'm Jordan's and today we're here to answer the biggest
question in heavy metal. You know, really, it's one of
life's great questions. It's up there with why are we here?
And are we alone in the universe. Today we're going
to tackle the age old question Metallica or Megadeth. Yes,
although I'm sure there's somebody out there who's mat that
we're not also talking about Slayer and Anthrax, you know,

(00:40):
all due respect to the Big Four, but we're focusing
on Metallica and Megadeth because these bands are linked by
one Dave mus Stain, who used to be a Metallica
and then was kicked out before they put out their
first record, Kill Them All in the eighty three. After
that he formed Megadeth with the goal of the throning
Metallica from the top of the thrash metal heap. Uh.
He's like Robert de Niro in Cape Fear and Metallica

(01:02):
is the Nickna character. That's amazing. Yes, I mean you know,
it's not gonna come as much of a surprise that
I'm not the world's biggest metal head. But the feud
between Dave Mustain and his ex Metallica bandmates fascinates me
to no end. It's just one of the most intense
band on band rivalries ever because it's so damn personal.
Mustain was fired from the group literally days before they

(01:23):
went into the studio to record their first album, which
sent him on the road to being the biggest metal
band ever. They put him on a cross country greyhound
Penny listens scrounging for potato chips for four days with
nothing to do but plot is revenge, that's cold, and
he forms Mega Death in an attempt to out metal Metallica.
And just imagine being defined by your worst moment. That's

(01:44):
pretty much what happened to Dave Mustain. His entire life
was shaped by the single incident. And Mustain, to me,
is such a compelling, tragic comic hero. He's like Gatsby.
He just can't let go of the past, and even
when he tries, he can't escape it. It's Metallica. They're
that ubiquitous, They're that assive. No matter how big Megadeth
get they'll never be Metallica, And yet I know there

(02:05):
are true blue metal fans out there who prefer Megadeth
to Metallica for the very reason that Megadeth never really
went pop. You know, they've stayed true to the metal
path for about thirty five years while Metallica pursued MTV
fame and power ballot hits. Dave Mustain isn't as famous
as Lars al Rick, but de Mustain also never became
the focus of scorn because he spoke out against napster,

(02:25):
you know. So you know there are cases for success,
whether it's commercial or artistic, to be made on both
sides of this equation. So without further ado, let's get
into this mess. Like so many of life and pleasantries,
this whole thing is Laras al Ric's fault. It was
he who put the classified ad in a local newspaper
which read drummer looking for another metal musicians the jam

(02:48):
with Tigers of Pentang, Diamond Head and Iron Maiden. Those
were his influences, it was, and the teenage Lars had
recently immigrated to l A from Denmark with dreams of
becoming a pro hennis player like his father. But then
he fell prey to the new wave of a British
heavy metal heralded by the likes of Diamond Head Iron
Maiden Venom. His ad was answered by James Headfield, and

(03:11):
James was this painfully shy kid from the l a
suburb of Downey, which is also home of the Carpenters.
Interestingly enough, he had had Field hit it off and
that became the nucleus of Metallica. If Van Halen was
Eddie and Alex, Metallica had these two, and you know,
when all is said and done, they're the only two
consistent members now. Another guy that answered Lars ulriks ad
was Dave Mustain, and Mustain at that time he had

(03:31):
played in a local band called Panic, but that band
ended fairly early on because both the drummer and the
sound guy were killed after their second show, which is unbelievable,
like a very I guess metal way for a metal
band to end. But Dave Mustain was sent adrift by this.
It's the first, I guess of many heartbreaks for him

(03:54):
in terms of losing out on rock bands. But he
shows up to the Metallica audition and Lars and Jays
are very impressed. By both his gear and his ability
to shred on guitar, and they invited him to join
the band and they find that like I think, Dave
initially fit in because him and James had a similar background.
Dave Mustain was raised as a Jehovah's witness and James

(04:16):
Hetfield was raised as a Christian scientist, so they had
that very strict religious background that of course drove them
into metal music. Eventually. They also both had to deal
with fathers who had walked out on their families early on,
so they I think we're both dealing with abandonment issues. Unfortunately,
Dave Mustain was going to have those abandonment issues compounded

(04:37):
by his experience in Metallica. But of course we're getting
ahead of ourselves. In early two, Metallica recorded their first
original song, Hit the Lights, for the Metal Massacre one compilation,
and they started playing gigs around l A. But they
really struggled to fit into the rock scene, which at
that time was basically spandex hair metal strippers partying all
that sunset striped stuff. And this wasn't Metallica. Like David

(04:57):
Stain would later say, the other bands wanted the girl
we wanted to rule the world, and they responded to
the apathy of the crowds by simply playing louder and
faster than anyone, which became a hallmark of their sound.
And in the early days of the band, Dave Mustain
was really seen as the virtuos, so he was sort
of a guy out front, the focal point. People who
knew the band at that time, like Scott Anna Amtrax,

(05:18):
he would say he was the frontman, he was the mouthpiece,
he was the personality. James Hetfield was still pretty reserved
and developing his own stage persona, and in later years
Dave Mustain would accuse James being jealous of getting being
the one who got all the attention during these early
shows because of his own natural charisma. He would say,
James whole frontman persona he copped from me. In the

(05:38):
beginning of the band, he just sang and I did
all the guitar work. When he was done singing, he'd
walk away from the microphone and I had to walk
up to the mic and talk. Now, in case it's
not already apparent, Dave Mustain is like a pretty abrasive character.
Like I interviewed Da Mustain a long time ago, and
he was like a pretty intimidating dude. And you know,

(05:58):
I remember asking questions and he would like pause for
like it felt like thirty seconds before he would answer,
you know, I think, just to make me feel like
an idiot for asking him any questions. Wait, this was two,
so this was some kind of Monster era. Yeah, well
this is like before some kind of Monster. So I
don't think that. I don't think the movie was out yet.
We were talking about whatever Mega Death record, which just
like a guy on the screen was who you Oh

(06:19):
my god, that's terrifying. Wow. Yeah. So I think even
like when David Stain was sober, he was a pretty
difficult guy to deal with. But in Metallica, the issues
with him really started to arise because of his drinking.
Now that seems a little weird to talk about with
Metallica because they are one of the most famously like
hard drinking bands of all time, famously nicknamed Alcoholica. Uh

(06:41):
and you know, if you've seen some kind of Monster,
you know you know that history with the band. But
David Stain really reminds me of that friend that I
think we all had in college at one point where
they were basically the drunken asshole friend, you know, the
friend that like, you know, you like them when they're sober,
but like when you got to the bars that they
have a few too many drinks, they just turned into

(07:01):
this very sort of confrontational, aggressive person. And that's what
Dave Mustain was like. You know, he later said, you know,
I would drink and have fun until someone would refute
something I had said, and then that was war. Baby.
I'd be aggressive and confrontational because I was a violent drunk.
So you know, if you're hanging out your partying, everyone's
having a good time, but then you have one guy

(07:21):
who just like wants to get into arguments all the
time and is being pushy about his opinions. I mean,
it's that can be a pretty like wearies something to
be around. So there's that issue with Dave Mustain. There's
also something, uh that ends up being a pretty big deal.
I guess we'll call it the dog incident uh Metallica,
where at an earlier rehearsal, Dave Mustain brought his dog

(07:46):
to the rehearsal and UH this dog was particularly troublesome
to the band's basis at the time, whose name was
Ron mcgoverney total basis name. By the way, I love
the name Rob mcg Derek mcquickly. It's like this exact
metal name. But yeah, it just reminds me of like
a nondescript basis Like you knew Ron mcgoverney was not

(08:07):
going to be the guy. He was not destined for
the long haul. Yeah, it's like if your name is
Ron mcgoverney, you're you're going to be like a blip
in the industry of metalica. But anyway, Mustain brings his
dog to the rehearsal and apparently this dog ends up
scratching Ron mcgoverney's car, and James Hedfield is so incensed
by this that he like kicks the dog, which is

(08:27):
not cool to kick a dog, and Dad Mustain, you know,
he is a drunken asshole, but I think in this
case he was justified and getting upset and he actually
like just pulled back and like punched James Hedfield in
the mouth over this, and apparently, like ms Stain was
like fired over this fight, but then they brought him
back shortly after. But you know, after you punch someone

(08:49):
in your band in the mouth, things are not hard
going to be the same after that. Yeah, so it
seems like at that point Mustain his position in Metalica
wasn't terribly tenable at this point, and he continued to
terrorize poor Ron mcgoverney when he was drunk, and there
was occasion where he poured beer down the neck of
his bass, which caused the pickups on his base to
short out, and Ron freaked out and threw everybody out

(09:11):
of his house. I mean, Ron just he couldn't hang basically,
I mean the North should he He He shouldn't have to
deal with that. So poor mcgifney, the band, and poor mcgoverney.
He left the band very soon after, and uh as
a replacement, Metallica set out to recruit Cliff Burton, who
was in the Bay Area band called Trauma, and he
could play these mind meltingly good bass solos and they
almost sounded like guitar solos. They were so so dexterous.

(09:33):
They were just so so fast and furious, and James
and Larns has seen him perform and they were just
absolutely captivated. So they began trying to woo him, and
he agreed on the condition that the band relocated to
northern California and That's how Metallica became one of San
Francisco's favorite sons. It seems pretty amazing that like Metallica
would pick up and moved to a different part of
the state just because of Cliff Burton. You know, like

(09:53):
they're already established in Los Angeles, but it's like they
wanted him in the band so bad that they were
willing to move, you know, several hundred miles north. Can
you blame him? No? I mean it really speaks to
like how amazing Cliff Burton was. I mean, he was
like the Jaco Pistorius of like metal bass playing, you know,
just a virtuoso and putting him in the band and
you know, sending up poor Ron mcgoverney into the dustbin

(10:14):
of history. I mean it really was putting Metallica on
their way to becoming like this huge band that's going
to change the world. But of course there's still this
guy didn't standing in the band, who is not going
to be sticking around much longer. No, it really it
goes down on the trip to New York and Lars
have been circulating their seventh song demo, No No Life
to Leather, and one copy landed in the hands of

(10:35):
a character named was Johnny z And by day he
ran a New Jersey flea market called Rock and Roll Heaven,
which was this local metal mecca, and he started a
label called Megaforce Records, and he and he liked the band.
He like what he heard, and he offered to pay
for them to drive out so he could work with them.
So the Metallica drove a U Hall van supposedly a
stolen you Hale van uh and drove this across the
country and they would stop along the way at friends

(10:57):
houses where Davos Dan would get really wrong and trash
their friends houses. And this really was sort of the
last straw for everybody in the band. I mean, this
guy was just disrespecting their friends homes and property that
he he had to go. So they get to New
York and they're staying at I think it was Anthrax's
practice space up in Queens. I mean they were sleeping
on like U haul blankets and eating they called him

(11:19):
blowny on hand sandwiches. They didn't even have white bread,
they just had blowney that they would just eat raw. Uh,
you know, really really low resource. And they were playing
a couple of gigs in New York and and Dave
would get drunk during sound checks and heckle the headliners
and stuff. He was just a huge liability at this point.
In addition to being unpleasant to be around. You could

(11:39):
tell he was He was just a liability because of
his drinking. And this really sets the stage for probably
one of the most notorious band dismissals in rock history.
I love that we know the date that he was fired,
April eleven three, a day that will forever live in
metal infamy. Dave Mustain wakes up. He's sleeping on this
I think Mattress essentially just laid on the floor of

(12:00):
their rehearsal space and he wakes up. He just hung
over his hell and he looks up and he sees
James Hedefield, Lars Alric and Cliff Burton standing above him,
and they tell him essentially that you're fired. And not
only are you fired, but like we bought a bus
ticket for you, like a four day Greyhound trip back
to California, and it leaves in an hour, so and

(12:23):
the stain is like, you know, days again, he's you know,
drank hard the night before, so he's really hungover, doesn't
really know what's going on and I mean it seems
like this was intentional, like they were ambushing him in
this weekend state because they didn't want to have a
fight about it. You know. It seems like they just
wanted to get this over as quickly as possible. There's
that story that Mustain tells that like he boarded the

(12:43):
bus with like a small bag of potato chips and
that was it. Like that was like one of the
details that he remembers that he all he had to
eat was potato chips and shove him on right. Yeah,
he was wasted. He's hungover. They shove him on this
bus with potato chips and uh, he's gone out of
the band and like James and large, they spend the
rest of the day just getting wasted, you know, because

(13:04):
I think they felt bad about doing this, but they
knew ultimately that there was no other choice. That Dave
Mustain was, uh, you know, just a terrible person to
be around. You know again, like we've all known someone
like that that maybe for a while it's kind of
fun to hang out with them. But for all of
Mustain's talent as a as a guitar player, and also
you know, the Christmas that he had on stage. I

(13:26):
think Metallica felt like, Okay, we're approaching a point where
we're gonna maybe be able to put a record, and
we're not going to be able to get to where
we're going. Get this guy's in the band. It does
make me think about that story in Guns and Roses,
like when they fired Steven Adler for like doing too
many drugs, And it is sort of a weird thing
again because Metallica was this famously hard drinking band to

(13:46):
fire a guy for drinking too much, you know, it
is that situation like we're writing speeding tickets at the
ND five hundred, you know, like this one guy gets
punished for what everyone else in the group is doing.
But again, it does seem like Metallica maybe really had
no other choice. And now I think was really what
hurt too from mistake was that, you know, he would
admit in later years like, yeah, I should have been
kicked out of Metallica, I should have been kicked out

(14:07):
of Megadeth. That could be quite honest, Like I I
know that I was not good to be around. I
think he resented the lack of warning and the lack
of an option of going to get treatment, which James
himself did in later years. So I think it was
really the double standard was like, why did I get
kicked out of this band? Well, James Hetfield was treated
with compassion. I mean, I'm sure over the twenty years

(14:28):
between those two incidents, like we understood how to treat
addiction and alcohol wasn't a lot better. But still there
was an element, like you said, was it me? Did
they just want me out of the band? Was a
rejection of me and not my my disease, not wanting
to deal with with my problem. And I think that
really hurt him because, you know, it was the second
time in a few years that a band had been
just ripped away from him in an instant, you know,

(14:50):
in a space of two hours. He lost the people
that he considered to be his best friends and the
band that he allowed to define himself. And now he
just had four days on a gray hund bus with
a bag of potato chips to just moll this over
and you know, seething, receiving and plotting revenge. It seems
like it's it seems like his dreams of revenge like

(15:10):
started like almost immediate immediately, Oh totally. I mean, he
he's bored to tears, and he's like, you know, trying
to read anything can get his hands on and get
his mind off of, you know, what his life's become
in this moment. And he gets his hand on a
handbill from a Democratic Senator, Alan Cranston, I think is
his name, and he warned against an escalating nuclear threat.

(15:31):
And the phrase on this handbill was the arsenal of Megadeth,
can't be ridd And that phrase inspired Mustains scribbled down
lyrics to a song, and ultimately that was the name
for his next band. Of course, he took out the
A in death. That was, like, I guess, the final
poetic stroke of genius for exactly take out the A

(15:53):
and death and we have a most metal name. So
while Davostain is on this bus plotting revenge against Metallica,
Metallica already had a replacement lined up for Dave Mustain
and that is, of course Kirk Hammett, who was the
guitarist in Metallica to this day. They he was a
member at the time of a Bay Area band called Exodus,
which is also a very famous metal band. They flew

(16:14):
him out to New York to audition Malcome exactly didn't
take the bus, but exactly apparently he impressed the guys
of Metallica by just nailing Dave Mustain solos on songs
like so He Can Destroy. I also have to think
that like a big part of the appeal for Kirk
Hammet for the people in Metallica was his personality. You know,
I've interviewed Kirk Hammett, and I mean, I think this

(16:36):
is apparent to anyone who's ever seen an interview with
him anywhere, that he's like a very laid back guy,
and he seems like generally like pretty unassuming and like
sweet natured and basically just like the opposite of of
Dave Mimsstain. Like I think, like Kirk Hammett also had
his own substance abuse problems, but my guests with Hammett
is that like when he got wasted, he was probably

(16:56):
just like given lots of hugs and bro hugs and
that sort of thing. He wasn't gonna be like, you know,
starting fights and and punching people in the mouth. So
it seemed like, you know, musically, Kirk Hammett could deliver
what Dave Mustain did, but also maybe even more crucially,
he added balance to the band, like the power center
was always going to be James and Lars, and I

(17:18):
feel like Dave must would have threatened that, you know,
even if he wasn't like a drunken jerk like, he
would have asserted his own power in the band, whereas
Kirk Hammont, I think just was more naturally deferential and
was going to like play his role as the lead
guitarist in Metallica and not threaten anyone else's role. And
you know, in later years, Mustan would say not very

(17:39):
complimentary things about Kirk, and Kirk, to his credit, never
rose to the baby would alway. He was always very
civil with mistanding interviews and things like that, which I
think says a lot about his character. Also, you're right there,
there's a sweetness to him there, which which I think
that the band desperately needed between the the Lars James duo.
Now I'm sure what was you know, even more aggravating

(18:02):
to Dave must Know he's been fired from this band.
He has to figure out a new path forward in
his own career. But then you know Metallica, they put
out killam A in three and there's like a significant
number of songs that like mus Stain played a role
in writing. I mean it's like he's not in the
band anymore, but like he is still like a ghost
figure really in Metallica. On that first record, right, he's

(18:24):
credited on four songs, the Four Horsemen, which was on
the now Lifetill Leather Uh demo under the title Mechanics,
was Jumping the Fire, Phantom Lord, which Mustaining would later
rework as Megadeth, This Was My Life on Countdown the
Extinction and Metal Militia, And then there's also debate about
how much input that Mustain had for Seek and Destroy
too Uh. And he's also credited on the band's second album,

(18:46):
Ride the Lightning, including the title track and the instrumental
Clothes or the Call of Kachulu. Yeah, and by the way,
these are all great songs. Yeah, I mean these are
not like, you know, just like whatever album thought types
of things, especially the Call of Kachulu. That's like one
of my favorite Meta Alica songs. And you can definitely
hear the influence of Dave Mustain like on those tracks.
Like to me, like they are the most sort of

(19:06):
like Megadeth like sounding songs in the Metallica discography. So
must arrives back in California after this four day bust journey,
and he's broke and he had to get a proper job.
So he had a brief stint as a telemarketer and uh,
which I mean, can you imagine getting like you know,
Dave mus day in calling trying to sell you, like
a credit card or like low interest loan or encyclopedias

(19:27):
or something. Hello me, it's me again selling credit cards.
I mean, it's pretty amazing. I wish somebody recorded that.
But his bitterness over this dismissal just festered, and he
put together a new band specifically to compete with Metallica.
You would say you wanted to outmetal Metallica. Uh. In
later years he would say, I measured my success by

(19:49):
whether or not I ate that day. My vision was
to destroy Metallica and stop living in a van. And
he spent much of recruiting the perfect members for his mission.
You know, he been burned by Metallica, So he approached
Megadeth as basically like a metal auto crap. Like he
would say, democracy doesn't work in a band. I have
to have my own band to make music exactly the

(20:09):
way I want to hear it with no compromises that
anyone else's ego whatsoever. So he has this vision, but
unfortunately his drive to out metal metallica was also matched
by his addiction. He gets a recording deal with Combat Records,
and he reportedly spent half of his really poultry studio
advance on alcohol and drugs rather than studio time. And

(20:29):
this is a big reason why Megadeth nine five debut,
Killing is my business and business is good wasn't as
strong as it could have been. I mean, he would
later say, simply put we ran out of money. But
it's sort of a lack of production quality on the album.
It's it's almost low five. There's sort of a weak
sound there. Now when you listen to the next Megadeth record,
which is Peace Cells, but who's buying? I mean, I

(20:50):
think you can hear like a significant upgrade in like
songwriting and the production. I mean, that's where Megadeth, I think,
is starting to sound like a real deal, like big
time metal band, although things were still like very chaotic
behind the scenes. The band's bass player Dave Ellison has
this great quote where he says that p Cells was
recorded on a diet of heroin burghers and cigarettes. Uh

(21:13):
still made made manassas to exactly. It's a very popular
diet here on the Rivals podcast, I think, and you know,
I think that shows a contrast with Metallica. I mean,
Metallica I think always had a lot of craziness going
on behind the scenes, but they always strike me as
like like from the beginning being a very professional career

(21:36):
as band, Like they knew that they wanted to be
huge and they would deliver on the biggest stages, and
that's how they were able to build their career as
the eighties progressed, whereas Megadet I think because of Dave Mustain,
maybe not quite as reliable in that regard, and they
were a little bit I think more hamstrung by you know,
some of the craziness that was going on. Of course,

(21:57):
they were also hamstrung by again Dave Mists, just like
psychopathic hatred of Metallica. I mean, when it's your goal
to destroy another band, you know, like that's not maybe
the best goal to have, Like you're not really focusing
on what you're doing, You're always thinking about somebody else,
and you're just setting yourself up ultimately, Uh, for disappointment,
especially when you are comparing yourself to what's going to

(22:19):
become the most you know, commercially successful metal band ever
and uh, you know, kind of going back to that
professionalism uh thing I was talking about earlier. You know,
one thing I think that really hurt Megadeth is that
Dave Mustain was not a great interview And I mean
he was great in the sense that you'd have like
wonderful quotes, but he wasn't very cooperative with reporters. He

(22:41):
could be very standoffish. He wasn't somebody that like I
think people like to talk to, uh, which you know,
like when you're building your career and you're trying to
make connections, it is important to kiss the ring to
a certain degree if you want people to help you out.
And there was gonna be no ring kissing at all
with Dave Mustain. And I'm sure one thing that drove
him mad is that, like people wouldn't stop asking him

(23:01):
about Metallica, and this was not something that he ever
really got over. Like not only did he not get
over it, but it seemed like the trauma of being
kicked out of that band was always very close to
the surface, Like this this one time, like he was
asked about Metallica, and this is a great quote. He says,
it's like getting into a car crash. Every time you
close your eyes, you relived the car crash, And every

(23:23):
time someone brings up the name of that band, it's
like we'reliving a car crash, but getting over it. I
have to do this on my own terms. I can't
go up to someone who's been raped and say get
over it. How insensitive is that? She's pretty insensitive, it
says that. I would say it's as insensitive as lining
getting kicked out of the band and being raped. That's
a pretty insensitive thing too. But yeah, like this was

(23:45):
clearly like just all consuming for him, even as Megaeth
was starting to take off. I mean, I'm having a
hard time. I'm thinking of any other band that was
ever formed for the express purpose of crushing another band?
Is this unique in rocket history? I think it may be. Well,
I mean, yeah, I think it's unique because of the
motivation and also because mss Stain was like very successful, Like,

(24:09):
you know, it'd be like if Pete Best you know,
had formed another band after being kicked out of the
Beatles that like weren't as big as the Beatles, but
like maybe we're as big as the Kinks or the
who you know, Like that doesn't really happen very often,
so that's unique. But then you know the fact that
ms Stain was so upfront about this. You know, I'm
sure that there's been people who've been fired out of

(24:30):
bands who felt motivated by like wanting to do better
than the people that fired them, but they don't usually
talk about it, you know, they them. Yeah, like mss Stain,
I'm sure he was sick of being asked about Matauko
all the time, but he also welcomed those questions by
the way he acted. You know, it's like, you know,
if you're this crazy person who's obsessed with this one thing,

(24:53):
people are going to ask you about that one thing
every time they interview you. I mean, it's just the
natural thing to talk about. And you know, his relationship
even when he was getting Megadeth off the ground in
the mid eighties, but Metallica, I mean there was a
certain still emotional closeness there. Like when Cliff Burton died
in the bus crash in six but Dame reportedly cried
for days. It was just absolutely shattered and laws would

(25:13):
say that around the same time, he and Dave were
still close, and he said really nice things about Peace Cells.
He said that the album blew me away and became
my favorite record for a long time, and that whenever
Megadeth came through San Francisco, he and Lars would find
each other and go drink and do a ton of
drugs and sit around, and so you know, he would
say that. Apparently Metallica even played Dave in advanced pressing

(25:36):
of Justice for All and invited into their shows. So
it's strange to believe. I mean, maybe it was a
case of like keep your friends close for your enemies closer.
I don't know, or maybe it was still him desperately
trying to maybe ingratiate his way back into the band.
Who knows, but there was a case of in I
think when Megadeth played the Monsters of Rock Festival, uh,

(25:56):
Lars actually came out and helped him with an encore
did a cover of Anarchy in the k together. So yeah,
there was a closest there, despite all of Mustain's rage
at that period. We're gonna take a quick break to
get a word from our sponsor before we get to
more rivals. Yeah, I mean I think Lars would later

(26:24):
say that, like he blamed the press essentially for playing
this up and driving a wedge between the two bands.
But the thing that he would leave out is that
the press was running with quotes that Dave Mustain would
give them. You know. It's like like he I don't
like question that he was actually close with Lars Ulric
at this time, but it just seems like publicly he
would go out of his way often to say bad

(26:46):
things about Metallica, and that you know, the reverse wasn't true,
Like Metallica really did not say anything bad about Megadeth
of course, because they were the bigger band, they weren't
as threatened by Mega Death. It really does seem like
it's misstained struggling to get over this, even as like
by like the early nineties, Megaeth it was like a
pretty big MTV band themselves, like that record count Down

(27:08):
to Extinction, you know, spawned like several like like pretty
famous videos. Uh. And they again, they weren't as big
as Metallica, but they were still a pretty big band,
and they actually ended up finally touring together a bit
intree when Metallica asked Megadeth to open for them. I mean,
wasn't that the deal? I mean I'm sure like in
Msstain's mind, they were like yeah, exactly, but they were

(27:31):
definitely opening for Metallica, right, I mean still they were
still Metallica. Yeah. When they finally played together, I mean,
this was a huge moment for Dave. And he goes
out onto the stage and he gives this this great speech.
He said, it's a very historical day. Ten years of
bullshit is over between Megadeth and Metallica. Lots of cheers.
There are lots of assholes who said this would never

(27:52):
ever happen, but I guess we proved them all wrong.
His big war is over speech. Who are those assholes? David? Like,
I feel like I think Dave Mustain was like at
the lead of those assholes saying they would never work.
There's another story like from this tour that I think
just speaks to like, you know how awkward this could be,
Like you know, even if they were friends, that there

(28:12):
was still like tension that was always going to exist
between the Stain and the Metallica guys. Like apparently there
was a show like where Mustain showed up backstage and
Metallica's dressing room and when he walked in, James Headfield
like cut up some sugar like it was cocaine, and
like kind of made a show of like doing it.
I think it was supposed to be a joke essentially,
but like mus Stain had like recently overdosed. Yeah, I

(28:35):
don't think like Headfield was like deliberately making fun of
the overdose, unless I'm being too kind of Headfield there.
I think it was just like a drug joke, but
like mus Stain took it the wrong way in spite
of that speech that he gave on stage, I mean
that tour. I mean I think it was like hard
on his ego. It was rough. I mean he even
watch from the wings keeping a really close eye on
Kirk Hammond and he wasn't impressed. I mean he would say,

(28:57):
you know, I think it was behind the music. He said,
I thought, God, Kirk's horrible, and I also thought this
is supposed to be me, which is just freaky. Years.
Like I was saying earlier, Dave went out of his
way to slag off Kirk. He has really never been
anything other than civil to to Dave in the press,
and that's probably the most famous quote Dave Game was
in September two thousand and four. He said, I don't

(29:17):
really care about Kirk just a lie. He stole my job,
but at least they got to bang his girlfriend before
he took my job. How do I taste Kirk? Yeah,
it's like, you know, I mean Kirkham. It doesn't have
to say anything about Dave Mistain because he won. You know,
when you're the person who's in the biggest middle band
of all time, you know you can just let people

(29:40):
take shots at you while you're like counting your like
tens of millions of dollars. But again, it goes back
to what I was saying earlier, Like Lars Lark would
always talk about how he felt that the press was
trying to split Metallica and Megadeth and create drama where
that wasn't really drama. Like there's this one quote where
Lars Lark says, you know, there's almost like two relationships

(30:00):
going here. There was Large and Dave hanging out kind
of doing their thing on the side, which at times
was a little odd. You'd go, wait a minute, I'm
supposed to not like this guy, because that's what's in
this week's Kerrang, you know, but if you read that
week's Kerrang, it would probably be Dave Mustain and saying
something mean about Metallica, and that would continue on and
on and on, even as you know they go through
these periods where they're friendly again. I feel like it

(30:23):
really culminates with the movie Some kind of Monster. Like,
to me, like the story of that movie is like
such a great encapsulation of how like, even when you
know Mustain could make a show of reconciling with the
guys in Metallica, it would always end up turning in
a negative direction, you know, in a very suprise to
come about how he was wronged by Metallica, even though

(30:44):
it was you know, this was supposed to be a
move that reconciled the Metallica doing this documentary that came
out in two thousand four Some kind of Monster, which
is basically a group therapy sessions that they struggle not
to break up amid their whole litany of problems, their
napster lawsuits, Jason Newston's the Parture, James Hetfield, substance abuse issues,
and just general low morale during the sessions. For it

(31:04):
would become sane anger and to help them through this,
the band hires what they call the performance enhancement coach,
just basically a therapist, and one of the things that
this person recommends is a really frank discussion with Dave Mustain,
which ends up going down on September two thousand one,
so just to heighten the emotional level even more, this
was two days after nine eleven. Dave is more than

(31:26):
down to have this discussion with his ex bandmates. He
even says, I've been waiting for this day for a
long time, which is very ominous, and the footage in
the film is incredibly emotionally charged, incredibly hard to watch.
I mean, just it's I mean, Dave's telling laws that
getting kicked out of Metallica ruined his life. He said,
I had nothing, then I had everything, and then I

(31:48):
had nothing again, which was fine, but then having someone
stand on my head and keep me in the water,
that's what he felt like Metallica did. No matter how
many platinum albums Mega Death would earn, he always lived
in the shadow the more successful Metallica, and he'sa you know,
no matter how many years ago, I think it was
eighteen years earlier, at this point, it still feels like
yesterday and a getting back to what he said earlier.

(32:10):
For him, it was really about not being given a
second chance. That was supposedly what the first thing he
said when they told him he's out of the band.
He said, what, no warning, no second chance. There are
ways to address what was going on with my problem.
Who I am sober is totally different from who I
am drunk. We never gave it a try. From his
point of view, they never really knew the real him,
sober him in the band, and he was hurt that

(32:31):
he wasn't able to really to do that, to have
that opportunity, and this conversation is going on, well, James
Hetfield is seeking treatment for alcoholism too, so I think
that made it seem sort of doubly unfair that that
they're dredging up these horrific moments from his past now
that he is sober, well, James is treated with this
level of compassion. Okay, you can stay in the band,
go get help. But I think that's really something that

(32:54):
I think Mustange should feel justifiably upset about. You know,
when I watched that scene, I feel like it's a
pretty honest and fair depiction of how Dave Mustain feels
about getting kicked out of Metallica and how I think
I'll always feel about it. But when Mustain himself saw
the movie, he got really upset. And I think it's
because he comes up as looking kind of pathetic in

(33:15):
the movie, Like he looks like a guy who's still
hung up on this thing that at that point, it
happened about twenty years earlier. And again, I think it's
an honest depiction, but I think maybe he was too
honest for tape Mustain because he really felt like he
had been set up. You know. He blamed the fact
that the scene was filmed, you know, two days after
nine eleven. He said, like, I was more emotional than

(33:37):
I would have otherwise been. He also said that, like,
you know, I talked to Large for three hours, and
they used five minutes of this conversation. I mean, of
course they weren't going to use all three hours, dude,
you know, like they're not gonna use the whole thing.
But you know, he felt that the that the parts
that they cut for the film weren't representative in his
mind of what the conversation was actually like. He said,
you know, they didn't show the scene where I gave

(33:57):
it to Lars for how he treated me, and Lars
ran off to about him crying. You know, they always
showed me crying, you know. I just think that he
ultimately felt like weak, that he looked weak in this movie,
even if again, I think it's an honest depiction. I
think again, like, as we've discussed in this episode, he's
never been able to let go of being fired from Metallica,
and it seems like what he says in the scenes

(34:17):
that you see in the movie are you know, just
sort of like this unfiltered expression of the hurt, uh
and anger that he felt about that. I think they've
just wanted to be seen as like yelling at Lars
all work in the movie. I think White wanted to
be seen as like more of a badass than he
actually is. Uh So he was very angry about how
the movie turned out. He actually ended up writing a

(34:38):
song too about that movie. And if you've heard this song,
it's on the record The System Has Failed, which is
not one of the best Mega Death records by the way,
I'll just throw that out there. Came out in two
thousand four. The song is called something that I'm Not
and he doesn't like mention some kind of monster by
name or Lars all work by name. But there are
references to one big charade fraud. My favorite reference little baby.

(35:02):
Uh presumably Lars l Rick is the little baby in
that situation. So again, this ends up being a thing
where you watched the movie and you feel like, wow,
it's amazing that these guys can get together and they
can be honest emotionally with each other and be vulnerable.
But from Misdaine, it's just like another betrayal and that's
how he perceives it, and instead of being able to
put this behind him, it just exacerbates his feelings of

(35:24):
betrayal even more. I gotta say I would happily watch
the director's cut with all three hours of their meeting, Like,
for real, that's the table, and they should be like
like like the Blue Ray extra should be like a
three hour just unedited, you know, thing of Lars and
Dave going at it, you know, I mean watching it,

(35:44):
I I thought I didn't think he looked I mean,
he didn't look like a badass, but I don't think
he looked weak either. That was a very articulate expression
of what he had gone through and you know, just
just of loss. You'd say, you know, all I had
was you and James. He had dreams together, and I
sold everything to join that dream and then it ended.
So I don't really know what he expected, really, I mean,

(36:06):
I guess other than like, you know, like Laura running
out of the room crying. Maybe, yeah, I agree with you.
I think that Mustain actually comes up really well in
the movie. But I guess I'm just speculating that that
is his problem with it. I wonder if he felt
that he came off as weak or vulnerable, or as
like a cry baby or something, and that's why he
was still against the movie, because otherwise I don't really
understand his reaction at all. So he makes this big

(36:27):
stink about the Metallica documentary and Lars gets his revenge.
In two thousand nine, the Metallica are inducted in the
Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and despite Dave's role
as a founding member, Laras said that he wasn't going
to be inducted because he never actually recorded an album
with the band, and then that that was large justification, said,
You've got to kind of cap it somewhere. Dave Mustain
never played on any Metallica records. No disrespect to him,

(36:49):
but there were half a dozen other people that were
in the lineup in the early days. We thought the
fair thing to do would be to include everybody that
played on a Metallica record. And then he had a
pretty brutal part shot. Dave Mustain was in the band
for eleven months, predominantly in two. I'm not trying to
play it down. I have nothing but respect and admiration
for his accomplishments since. But there's an implied but he's

(37:12):
not really he's completely downplaying his influence in Metallica history
in a way that I think is unfair. You don't you, Yeah, yeah,
I mean I was gonna say, I think he should
have been inducted. Um. Yeah, he didn't play on the records,
but like he co wrote some significant songs when he
was in the band, and I think it's fair to
say that Kirk Hammond was just imitating what Dave Mustain

(37:33):
did in the early days. You know, I think Kirk
Hammon eventually, you know, in the later records he developed
his own voice, but he was clearly brought in because
he could replicate what Dave Mustain had done when he
was in the band to put him on the same
level as like Ron mcgubney or something. I think it's
like just yeah, it's blatantly like like untrue, like it's
mustain had a huge, i think influential role in shaping

(37:55):
the sound of Metallica earlier, and it would have been
this incredible sort of you know, peacemaking moment between them all. Instead,
Dave's just invited to attend the ceremony as a guest,
which he turned down understandably. He said that he had
commitments playing a European tour with with Judas Priest. Uh
that's the official version. He would later say, you know what,
do you think I'm nuts going to go just sit
in the audience while you know, they're being inducted, and

(38:18):
I'm just like, you know, cast out, Like that's masochism
what he'd say. So, I mean, understandably he didn't show up,
and he's still you know, grumbling about it in the press,
and this really makes James Hetfield say, you know what,
this guy is ridiculous. This is guy He's gotta let
it go. He gives an interview around the same time
as the Hall of Fame induction. I mean, Dave's not

(38:39):
in this band for a reason, he said, and this
reason is super simple. He was in the band for
eleven months, and he goes on and on and on
and on. I don't know any other band on the
planet that there was a member in the band for
a short amount of time and they've still got this
big a chip on his shoulder. It's insane, you know what.
He's in love and that's fine because we love him back.
So James Hepfield characterizes as unrequited love on the stands part,

(39:02):
and I think he's right. I mean, I don't know
how else you really can look at this other than
you know, Misstain had a girlfriend in the early eighties
that dumped him, and he hasn't gotten over the girlfriend,
even though he married somebody else. You know, he's still
stuck on Metallica and even here. You know, it's like
he gets dissed over the rock and Roll Hall of

(39:25):
Fame thing and he can't let it go. He can't
just like let Metallica do their thing. He has to
find a way to get revenge, and he does it
I think in a pretty effective way. You know, as
petty as this is you have to tip your cap
to him for the interview that he gives in two
thousand nine to Rolling Stone, where he tells the magazine
that there was a rumor in the mid eighties that
Metallica was going to fire Lars, I guess after the

(39:47):
Master of Puppets tour, and they didn't because Cliff Burton
died and if Cliff Burton had lived, then Lars all
Record had been out of the band. And he actually
got a supporting witness for this, scott Ian from Anthrax.
He confirmed that this was a rumor, and then Kirk
Hammett also said that, like, well, yeah, I think we

(40:09):
were maybe mad at Lars at some point and maybe
we said something to somebody it was a bigger deal
than it actually was. But it's like he didn't deny
that this was something that was you know, kind of
floating in the air in the mid eighties. So you know, again,
it's a super petty thing to bring up, you know,
like more than twenty years after the fact. But I
think for misstain, you know, again, someone who's defined by

(40:30):
you know, how he was fired from Metallica, for him
to say that, like, well, Lars could have been also
out of the band if not for you know, this
terrible tragedy that happened. I mean there must have been
something I guess like sickly satisfying about that for Dave mistake,
I'm sure. And also just the show cracks between the
James Lars duo too, which is, you know, just to

(40:52):
pit them against one another and and to to refresh
all those those wounds twenty years later. It was. It
was a pretty cunning Yeah, agent, a chaos agent, Dave Mustain.
And again I go back to the James Headfield quote.
He's right, David stains in the band for eleven months,
and yet it's like you have your ex in your
life forever, Like you can't get rid of your ex.
You know, you're crazy X that haunts you forever. Uh,

(41:14):
you know they're going to keep, you know, causing havoc,
you know, decades after the Is this around the same
time that must writes his memoir to which I'm sure
is just another opportunity from the event. Is Spleen about
about Metallica? Yeah, there was that thing about how he
accused Metallica of ripping off this song that Megadeth recorded
for the bill and Ted Bogus Journey soundtrack called Go

(41:35):
to Hell, and there's a there's a passage in that
song like where Mustain starts doing the Lord's Prayer and
then you know, soon after that, Metallica of course they
put on Inner Sandman, which has the now I lave
me down to sleep passage in the middle of the song.
So yeah, he accused Metallica of ripping him off, although
really they all just ripped off the Lord the Lord's Prayer.

(41:56):
So so the Lord himself is the one who really
has a case here for chaces pending, cases pending. So
in spite of all of his sniping, James Heffield finds
some stuff getting nostalgic around the time of the Rock
and Roll Hall of Fame induction. He's thinking about all
the other bands that came up with Metallica and this
leads in to the Big four shows. The guy it's
like the massive metal piece accords. You got Metallica, Anthrax,

(42:18):
Slayer and Megadeth. It was the first time that Megadeth
of Metallica shared a stage together since that British show
where where where Dave gave that big speech on stage.
Uh and Metallica for to their credit made a concerted
effort to try to ease tension between all the bands
before the show. They would organize big group dinners beforehand,
like team building type of stuff, so that everybody could

(42:40):
hang out. Uh. And the vibe was apparently reportedly really good,
and all the bands would hug and jam together and
it was a really positive experience for everybody, UH, particularly Dave,
who joined Metallica on stage for a group jam on
Diamond Heads Helpless and Kirk Hammett gives Dave the solo,
which Dave was really touched by. For him, he said,

(43:02):
it was kind of a symbolic passing of the torch
back to me, and it was a nice gesture and
it really helped relations improved between everybody, and then that
really was a big moment for him. The only dark
cloud that appeared on all these Big Four shows that
went on off and on for about eighteen months was
right before their show at Yankee Stadium in September, two

(43:23):
days before Megadeth pulled out of the concert because Damon
Stain had to undergo surgery for a neck and spine
condition that he said was due to years of headbanging,
which I don't know. May Or may not be true.
And apparently he heard that Metallica's co manager called him
a quote pussy for not playing the gig. So a
day before he's about to go into surgery, but potentially

(43:44):
you know, life saving surgery. According to him, Uh, he
changed his mind. He flies back to uh New York,
does the gigg. He's wheeled on the stage and like
a golf cart or something, and he plays his gig.
I think I'm like a neck brace or something to
to sort of like prove it to them. Tallica camp
that he's got he's got the metal to do this,
like you know, he said he had signs all over

(44:05):
the stage and said do not headbang because apparently if
he did, he was like close to getting paralyzed if
he did. He also we talked to the press. You
would say that both James Hetfield and Tom Area from
Slayer had similar surgeries, and the implication being, yet again,
my medical issues aren't treated with the same degree of
compassion and cares there's with alcoholism. If its neck problems,

(44:27):
some everybody else, they get a path. But with me,
I'm called a pussy or kicked out of the band
or something. And I thought that was that was very interesting.
But for him, the best moment of all these reunion
shows was the Metallica thirtieth anniversary concert in December twenty eleven.
They played it in San Francisco at the Film War
Auditorium and Metallica invited a lot of their former members back.

(44:49):
One of them was Ron McGovney, and they also got
miss stand back and Kirk once again let him take
some solos. And for this was really all that mistake
ever wanted. He was back for this one night only.
He was back in Metallica. He was playing lead. This
was all we'd ever wanted. This was a peak moment

(45:10):
for him, and of course, as peak moments go with
Dave Mustain, it was downhill after this. Yeah, I just
I think you really have to again do a shout
out to Kirk Hammett, Like, how cool is Kirk Hammett
that like he let Dave Mustain do this again. This
guy who is like Mustain is dissed Hammett for years.
You know, Hammont could very easily like play the diva

(45:31):
card and not allow Mustain even on the same stage
with him, much less to take over the solos. But again,
I think it speaks to have magnanimous. Hammett was, although
I think, you know, bringing misstain back in the band.
It just again it seems like the guy who is
obsessed with the girlfriend. The girlfriend maybe offers to like
go out to dinner with the guy, and then the

(45:51):
guy thinks that they're gonna get back together because it's like, oh,
finally I have a chance to get back into the fold.
Because after these concerts, Mustain starts talking about a Metallica
Megadeth super like he floats this idea into the media,
which is never gonna happen. Well, why would Metallica do this.
Metallica very strong brand, they could tour on their own.

(46:14):
They don't need Dave Mustain. Mustain probably needs Metallica more
than than vice versa. And he starts talking about this
in the press. Mustain does like it's gonna happen, and
of course it's up to the guys of Metallica to
pump the brakes on this. And and James Hetfield as
I think a pretty great quotehere he says, this is
the day that we kind of wanted to forget about,

(46:35):
you know, the big mouth that just wants to go,
go go, and again, like you know, he says that,
but then he couches it in like you know, affection
for misstain. Ultimately, he says, you know, there's an authenticity
about him when he speaks. He doesn't think too much
before he does. He just goes off the cuff. And
he said, that's kind of endearing, but also it creates
problems for us because he says these things and then
we have to answer for them. And then Dave's answer,

(46:57):
I think again, it just speaks to the passive aggress
that is inherent in this relationship. He says, I guess
my whole thing was that I wanted them to know
that I loved them and that I missed them and
I enjoyed playing with them. If that's not mutual, then
I understand I still respect him and I still care
about the guy. If he doesn't want to play with
me anymore, that's cool. Of course, it's not cool. We

(47:18):
all know it's not cool with him, and the whole
thing of like, well, I just wanted them to know
that I love them. But if they don't love me back,
you know, poor me, you know, going right back to
the self pity thing, you know, it just shows, like
I guess, like the vicious cycle that was in play
with these bands at this time. But even with this
vicious cycle, you know, and like all of the negative
mojo that's come mainly from Dave Mustain, you still get

(47:41):
the sense that there is like a friendship here. Like
as maddening as Mustain is, I think in a lot
of ways, it seems like there is like the affection
that you would have for anyone that you've like lived
very intense periods of your life with, like if you
were in a war or something, like you're always going
to be friends with your war buddies, you know. And
I think there's like a similar thing with Metallic and
Mega Death, where you know, as mad ning as Mustain

(48:02):
is going to be, it's like James and Lars, They're
always going to have a place in their heart, absolutely,
And you see that with with Mustain's recent cancer diagnosis,
I mean, which is really brutal him. He's been given
it everything he's got. I think he's had like fifty
one radiation treatments and nine chemo treatments or something, and
he was touched when James Headfield reached out, he said,
I got a text from my old brother James Hetfield

(48:22):
and I was so so happy to hear from him.
Contrary to what anybody says, and contrary to any of
the act that we put on. I love James and
I know that James loves me and cares about me.
You can see that when the moment of truth is
here and I'm telling the world that I've got a
life threatening disease, who comes to stand next to me? James?
And I think it seems like Dave Mustain is doing
better now, like with his with his cancer treatment, So

(48:44):
that's great news. I really look forward to the day
when all these guys are in wheelchairs and they're still
saying terrible things about each other's guitar solos. You know,
that's something I hope really comes into play in the future.
All right, hand, we'll be right back with more rivals.

(49:07):
We've now reached the part of the episode where we
give the pro side of each part of the rivalry.
Let's talk about Metallica first. I mean, look, they're the
most popular metal band of all time. While Dave Mustain
was a crucial member early on, there's no question that
Mattall because most popular music was made without him. Uh,
they ultimately didn't need Dave Mustain, and they were probably
happier for having kicked into the curb. You know, as

(49:29):
as traumatic as that was, probably in the moment, it
just seems like for being able to live inside of
this band, it was just gonna go a lot smoother
getting rid of Dave Mustain and bringing in you know, Mellow,
Happy Go Lucky, Kirk Hammet And you know, Metallica is
still a band today. They're still playing huge shows, putting
out you know, very successful records, and um, I'm sure

(49:50):
that's why. I mean, I think if Mustain had stayed
in the band, they probably would have imploded back in
the nineteen eighties. Yeah, I mean, like you said earlier,
the ultimate argument ender is essentially their Metallica and the
biggest selling metal band of all time, when the most
influential bands period in history. They set the template for
what a heavy metal band is supposed to look like
and sound like. I think, you know what I mean,
And I think that although they didn't always keep a

(50:10):
consistent sound, I think their highs are you know, without question,
higher than than uh than Megadeth and the Black Album Ride,
The Lightning, Master of Puppets, Justice for All, It's the
foundation of modern metal. And you know, plus this is crucial.
They don't have Dave Mustains singing hell old me. I
like Dave Mustain's voice. I think it's pretty cool voice.
But yeah, yeah, they definitely not only survived without Mistain,

(50:35):
but they thrived without the amustained. But going to the
pro Megadas side, you know, I don't think you can
really underestimate how difficult it was for Mustain to form
a new band and really become like not as successful
in Metallica, but like more successful than like metal bands ever.
I mean I brought up this analogy earlier, but like,

(50:55):
imagine if Pete Best after he was fired from the
Beatles had like formed the Kinks or the who you know,
or another like prominent British rock band, not as big
as the Beatles, but still very successful. I mean, that's
essentially what Dave Mustain did with Megadeth. And yes he's
very petty, and yes he hasn't been able to get
over getting kicked out out of Metallica, but like, maybe

(51:15):
pettiness is good for your career sometimes his goal well yeah, exactly,
if if your goal was to get revenge on Metallica
and this sort of all consuming hatred is what is
driving you in your career. I mean, it propelled Megadeth
to like millions in record sales and into playing big concerts.
You know, maybe it also caused Mustain to get sick
later in his life, because you can't carry around that

(51:37):
much bile, I think, and have a healthy life ultimately.
But yeah, I think what Mustain was able to do.
You know, he was put in a pretty big hole
when he was fired, and he dug his way out
of it. And here we are, you know, almost forty
years after he was fired, and Mustain and Megadeth are
still going strong and you know, more power to them. Yeah,
you know, I mean a lot of the pro Megadeth

(51:58):
arguments always seem to have this like air of country
rarian is um. And my heart goes out to Dave
Mustain just because, you know, as he said, I think
he said it in some kind of monster. People hate
him purely be virtue the fact that he's not in Metallica,
you know, I mean, he's beating himself up about this
truth over the years. He doesn't need legions of other
metal heads gang up on him too. And you know,
all the Metallica obviously had much higher highs. I think

(52:18):
Megadeth had a really great consistent career, especially in the nineties,
when you know, you could argue that Megadeth in the
nineties with Rust in Peace, Countdown, New Extinction in euthan
Asia gave Metallica's run nineties run and run for their money.
I think that they're way more productive than Metallica in
recent years. And for all of Dave's shortcomings as a vocalist,

(52:38):
I think that his songs tend to have more complexity
to him, more complex riffs and uh, you know, let's
not forget he co wrote some of Metallica's best early
songs too, and um and also this is crucial he
didn't team up with lou Reid for Lulu Oh. I
don't like that Lulu shape. I had to come up
at some point. That's what a Metallica's greatest achievements. And
I'm gonna go to my grave arguing that. Now looking

(52:59):
at Metallica and Megadet together, I mean, look, this feud
is like one of the best in metal history, and
us hosting a feuds podcast, we love that sort of thing,
so we're glad that exists. And really, I mean we
all came out ahead. I think it was inevitable that,
you know, even if the Stained were like an angel
and didn't have a drinking problem and wasn't belligerent, he
eventually would have left Metallica because he had his own

(53:21):
strong artistic vision. And instead of having one world class
metal band, we now have two world class metal bands.
So I feel like as headbangers out there, we all
came out ahead because these guys only this is one
of the greatest examples of you can enjoy both in rock.
You get too awesome thrash metal bands for the price
of wine, and that's something that should be celebrated. Now,

(53:42):
Ice Field, Jordan's that you know now that we're at
the end of another episode that when it comes to
uh talking about rivalries, nothing else matters in my life,
or should I say nothing matters? Excellent pun We fade
to black. Yes, So thank you for listening to this
episode of Rivals. We'll be back with more beefs and
feuds and long simming resentments next week. Rivals is a

(54:09):
production of I Heart Radio. The executive producers are Shawn
Tytone and Noel Brown. Supervising producers are Taylor chicogn and
Tristan McNeil. The producer is Joel hat Stat. I'm Jordan's
Runt Talk and I'm Stephen Hyden. If you like what
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