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February 26, 2020 41 mins

Stevie and Lindsey started as bandmates and bedmates before their love curdled into the toxic-yet-kinky antipathy that inspired Fleetwood Mac’s 1977 classic Rumors. This episode of Rivals unpacks the storied love triangle (or is it a love quadrilateral?) within the band’s ranks, and the searing resentment that spurred the pair to create some of the greatest songs/hate-sex anthems in rock. After Stevie ousted Lindsey from Fleetwood Mac in 2018, it seemed like these two might go their own way for good — but can they really stay apart?

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Episode Transcript

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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Rivals as a production of I Heart Radio. Hey everyone,
this is Rivals, let show about music rivalries and beeps
and feuds and long summering tensions between pop musicians. My

(00:23):
name is Stephen Hayden. I'm one of the hosts of
the show, and this is my co host. My name
is Jordan Ron Talk. This is our first episode. Maybe
we have approximately ten thousand rivalries on our master list already,
don't we. I mean it's a huge, little, massive, massive list.
So we're excited to get into everything. I wish we
could talk about ten thousand rivalries just in this episode,
but this episode would be like fifteen hours long, and

(00:43):
I don't think anyone would listen to that. We probably
we would, We would listen. We probably die in the
middle of it, though, and would just be dead air.
So we're excited to get into the show. You might
be wondering, like, why do we want to hear these
guys talk about music rivalries? Or who the hell are we?
What are your qualifications? Show us your papers, you know,
let's get into it. Well, I wrote a book, You're

(01:08):
the book on music rivalries. It's called your Favorite Band
Is Killing Me? And it came out a couple of
years ago, and I wrote a book about music Robberries,
just because uh, I love music rivalries. I think they're fascinating. Yeah, conflict,
you have famous people, hilarious anecdotes about people getting really angry,
which you know is always classic, always classic comedy gold.

(01:30):
I also feel like the reason why we as music
fans tend to be attracted to beefs, in feuds and
all of these rivalries is that they sort of reflect
our own need to kind of work out our issues
in different ways. You know, Like we look at these
artists who exist in in the same lane, but maybe
they're different in some crucial way, and we pit them

(01:52):
against each other because really those people signify opposing ideas,
and instead of fighting wars over these ideas, we talk
about it by either talking about celebrities or sports teams
or whatever the case may be. Philosophical debate but with
much better clothes and better look absolutely a great way
to put it. So I know that I'm qualified to

(02:13):
talk about this, But what are you doing here? Jordan's am?
I do my best? I am a music editor at
People Magazine and a contributing writer Rolling Stone, and before
that I was at VH one for a number of years.
I have not written the book on music ravelries, but
I've talked to some of the people involved, profiled Paul McCartney,
ringo star, David Crosby, David Byrne, people all at the

(02:36):
heart of famous musical feuds. So yeah, happy to bring
some of that here. I'm very excited about the rivalry
we're gonna be talking about today. I feel like most
of the times on the show, we're gonna be talking
about rivalries between artists or bands, and that's always cool,
But to me, like the best ravalries actually exist within bands. Oh, absolutely,

(02:56):
inter band rivalries because it's like you can't really generate
a good h for somebody unless you, like you worked
with them or being in the back of a tour
bus for you know, hours at a time for years. Yes,
And the rivalry we're gonna be talking about today, I
think it is like one of the all time great
intra band rivalries, maybe the greatest, I would yeah, I
would argue that the greatest. I think so, because you

(03:17):
got you got the romantic edge just kicks it over.
We're talking about Lindsay Buckingham versus Stevie Nicks, bringing on
in Fleetwood Mac. Okay, let's dive into this battle. Fleetwood
Mac has like a long, crazy history, lots of different
band members. The only constants are Mick Fleetwood and John McVie,

(03:38):
the Fleetwood Mac, the Fleetwood Mac, the rhythm section. But like,
how did Lindsay Buckingham and Stevien Nicks end up in
the same band? You know that story? Well, the best
part sort of is is that you know, rumors and
almost people when people know that's just the tip of
the iceberg, they that that's the sort of the end
of their relationship. Stevie and Lindsay were high school friends,
didn't They made like a religious Yeah, it was like
a young life and they sang like mom is in

(03:59):
the as songs or something. Yeah, it's like the two
like sexiest drudgist rock stars. They met at church. I
love it. They were in a band in high school
called Fritz and they were actually a decent sized band.
They opened for like Jimi Hendrix and Janice Joplin, which, apparently,
Stevie says later was kind of where she developed her
style with the feathers and you know, the the gauzy
um scarves and stuff and uh and They eventually split

(04:22):
the band in seventy one, try to make a big
move to l A. And that's actually when they first
became like a romantic item. And the Stevie said later, like,
you know, she went out and got all these jobs
as like a waitress and a housekeeper and stuff, and
then she'd come home and and Linda will be stone
out of his mind and she would like, you know,
be passed out, and he would she would like move
his legs and like clean under you know, clean up
where he was and everything. Um. And they went to

(04:45):
a sound city and recorded their duo album, Buckingham Knicks
amazing album. Well cover is actually it's really kind of
the one of the first huge cracks in the relationship
and as a sore point for Stevie for years to come.
She they were both totally broke. She spent something like
her last hundred bucks on this white blouse and they're

(05:08):
taking the photo and the photographers and no, it's not
not quite sexy enough. Can you take that blouse off?
She really didn't want to, and Lindsay just jumps down
her throat. I'll call on you're being a child while
you being so paranoid it's art, and she really was
coerced into taking her blouse off and it really upset her.
It was a huge sticking point in their relationship. I
think it really sowed the seeds for there. You know,

(05:30):
if your boyfriend, you gotta like step in when the
photographer says to your girlfriend, take your blouse off. Don't
be on the photographer's side in that situation. But never
side with your woman. Let her keep the blouse on.
But anyway, that's a great record, great record. It totally
tanked and Stevie was thinking about quit music after tanked, actually,
But the good thing that came of it was that

(05:51):
when they're in Sound City recording, Mike Fleetwood heard Lindsay
Buckingham recording guitar solo. Mike Fleetwood obviously Jumper and Fleetwood
Mac um Bob Welsh, the Fleetwood Mac guitarists had just
left and they were looking for new guitarists. So he
tracked down Lindsay and asked him to join the band,
but just Lindsay and just Lindsay, and Lindsay said, well,
you know, I've we're sort of a package deal. You

(06:12):
gotta bring my girlfriend Stevie too, And Um and they
kind of had I guess she showed up at an
audition straight from work wearing a waitress outfit, and they
had a little audition and then went to famously went
to dinner I think on New Year's Eve or something
in the eteen seventy four at a Mexican restaurant, and
that was kind of how the band started. The band,
the classic line up, the famous classic lineup, and they

(06:33):
started recording uh what self titled record, and the big
single from there is by the girlfriend who had to
be forced into the band, Rhianna, and which is like
you know in that album, and that song kind of
kicked that album into the stratosphere. And I think that
record is old, like four million copies, which was like
astronomical for the mid seventies. Oh it's ton yeah, And

(06:55):
I mean that and Landslide too were the biggest songs
on that album. So like, so Stevie's already kind of
writing like a lot of the big hits, yeah, And
Lindsay's not real happy about that. And I although Lindsay
is an important contributor to our songs, he's kind of
important on the arrangement and production side, but Stevie is
still the big star and he loved Nega. I mean,

(07:17):
I guess when they started recording their next album was
gonna be rumors he said that she needed him to
make her song sound quote halfway Decent, which is a great,
you know, great line. Well, and their relationship was starting
to fall apart. I mean everyone, every everybody you have
you have. You have Lindsay Buckingham and Stevie Nick's breaking up,

(07:38):
and you haven and Christie McVeigh breaking up. Of course,
the difference in the McVie situation is that John McVie
isn't a songwriter, so you only get one side of
that relationship. You have Christine McVie writing You Make Loving Fun,
which I believe is about Christine mcvegh having sex with
the w from from Fleetwood Mac, which to John mcs

(08:00):
credit plays a sick bassline on that song, even though
you know you think, alright, honey, this is not a
nice thing to make me play on. I know that
you're singing about having sex with the lighting director here.
But John McVie, the consummate professional, he does it. But
you know you can't really read into his baselines. You know,
there's nothing confessional about his Basselines. But then in the
you can feel the pain. You can feel you can

(08:21):
feel the pain. They're very deep and and and and
heavy Stevie and uh and Lindsay. However, you hear both
sides are there, and you have all over that record exactly,
and you have uh, you know, Stevie writing Dreams, which
in sly Stone's bed. Yes, oh believe me. I own

(08:41):
the Classic Albums documentary on Blu Ray by the way.
I needed to get that Blu Ray. Uh. So you
have Stevie writing Dreams, which is I think kind of
a tender breakup song because yeah, it's much nicer than
Go and then um, because it's Lindsay is writing Go
your own Way, because like Stevie in Dreams, it's more
sort of like a zen idea that like players only

(09:03):
players only love you when they're playing, which is kind
of like a dis I guess, But like I feel
like the overall vibe of that song is like you'll
get over it. You know, women may come, women will go.
When the rain watches you free, you'll know, like this
idea that you'll be purified by nature. I guess, like
when you have a horrible breakup and then you have
Lindsay Buckingham essentially calling Stevie Nicks a slut and up

(09:26):
and checking up uh and and never going back again.
Another Lindsey Buckingham song kind of a bitter song like
it kind of fronts is like him trying to reconcile
his feelings about the breakup, but it's also kind of
jabbing at Stevie a little bit. And of course the
big Stevie Nick song that doesn't end up on the
record is Silver Springs, which is really sort of the

(09:48):
theme in a lot of ways to their relationship. It
crops up again and again in their story. It's really interesting.
I mean, she wrote it as sort of tender but
also kind of vengeful post ortem of their relationship, and
she she wrote it she really felt strongly about the song,
and also she wrote it as a gift to her
mother too. She was gonna give her the songwrits to it,

(10:10):
and so she really wanted it on the album and
the band for reasons that kind of seemed not, you know, well,
the idea it was too long. Yeah, The idea was that, like, yeah,
because Silver Springs was supposed to be on rumors. But
then there was this idea that like the album is
too long, we have to cut a song, and there's
also like a lot of ballads already on this record,

(10:31):
so they decided to put on I don't want to know.
She later said that she recorded that song with a
gun to her head. I don't I don't think that
means literally, but like in the figured of sense, she
felt like she had a gun to her head when
she did that song. They did the backing track without
her and not telling her, and then took her out
to the parking lot and said, hey, well, here's the
deal with Silver Springs. You gotta sing this song. And
they made Nick Fleetwood tell her because he's, you know,

(10:53):
the unofficial leader, I guess official leader, And and she
went berserk and then yeah, as you said, just recorded
it with you know, metaphorical gun to her head and
it bugged her forever. Yeah. Well, going back to Silver Springs,
it's interesting to contrast that with with Go your Own Way,
because Go your Own Way is this incredibly bitter song
clearly about Stevie Nicks, and you know, Stephen Nicks had

(11:15):
this quote about like every time Lindsey Buckingham would sing
the part about packing up and checking up is all
you want to do it like I want. I wanted
to kill him. Yeah, I want to go over there
and kill him. He knew what He really pushed my
buttons through that. It was like, I'll make you suffer
for leading me, and I did. But then, which is great,
it's like some fatal attraction. Like but then. Stevie Nicks though,
she had an interview that she did in nineties seven

(11:37):
where she said that when she wrote Silver Springs, the
idea was like this is the quote from an interview
that she that she said, I'm so angry with you.
You will listen to me on the radio for the
rest of your life and it will bug you. I
hope it bugs because you listen to the lyrics of
that song and like you can't escape the sound of
the woman who loves you, like my voice wants you.

(11:59):
And of course you know that song. It was left
off of rumors it was the B side for go
your Own Way, which is just the ultimate and dignity
for it, the B side for the song slagging her off. Yeah,
we're gonna put you on the B side, and like
you know, and again, like you said, Stevie thought, okay,
I'm gonna give the royalties for this song to my
mother and it's gonna be a big, you know, big

(12:21):
pay for her. But then I didn't. Yeah, they they
put on the single and it didn't make news. It
would have made a ton more money if it had been. Yeah,
I mean, I have best selling albums of all time. Yeah.
But then there's that sequel to this story in nine
seven they end up reuniting the classic Land with Fleetwood
Mac end up reuniting for the Dance And by the way,
do you know how Stevie Nicks and Lindsay Buckingham got

(12:42):
back together? Twister, My Favorite Things, Natural Disasters, Bill Paxton,
and Fleetwood Mac My three favorite Things. They did a
song for the Twister soundtrack in called Twisted. I want
to know what business meeting got this movie? It's about
a storm, cows fly through the air? Got hell on
how we got Paxton? What else do we what do

(13:03):
we need? Oh? We need, we need, Yeah, we need,
we need. The most tumultuous couple in rock history to
record a song that is just a slight variation on
the title of the movie. I just like I'm imagining.
Like other blockbusters from the nineties, like if you would
have had Titanic or in Armageddon, like Armageddon, but that
brings Stevie and Lindsay back together. They kind of brings

(13:26):
them back into the fold of Fleetwood Mac and Silver
Springs ends up being sort of the breakout song from
the dance because it's like the before that most people
didn't know the song. I know personally, i'd never heard
the song before it was in the dance. And the
thing that people always remember from the television special of
the Dance is Fleetwood Mac playing Silver Springs because it

(13:47):
culminates with like two minutes of like Stevie Nixon. I
don't know if they're like I murdering each other or
I like fucking each other. It's like one of the two.
And like there's a part because like you know that song,
it's an amazing song because it just builds and builds
and builds, and it looks terrified. I have to looks terrified.

(14:11):
But he's holding is ground. He's like he doesn't break
the stair, which is very balls on the I would
never do it because like as the song progresses, Stevie
basically like starts walking toward him and like shouting the
court like you know, shouting the end lyrics of the
song and like shouting at him that like you'll never
forget me, Like I will always haunt your dreams. You know,

(14:32):
I will be the woman you never get over. Like
that's the message of the end of this song. And
Lindsay is he is he's rattled, but he also feel like, oh,
maybe he's kind of turned on by this because he's
like not breaking a stare and he's like given it
back to her. So it's like, wow, you know, I mean,
this is the the amazing thing about this relationship. And
you know there's other twist and turns that came after this,

(14:54):
but like and before, we all have that X in
our life who is like main X, the number one X.
You know, the person who maybe the first person to
break your heart. Maybe you almost came close to like
marrying that person, maybe you divorced that person. But in
most cases you never see that person again, or like

(15:15):
you maybe see them occasionally, you don't work with them.
You know, they're not a part of your life. They're
the person that every time something cool happens to you,
you do something cool, you think, wow, I wish this
person could see this, right now exactly, I rubbed in
their face so I could like spike the ball in
the face, But it's always an imagined thing, like you

(15:35):
don't actually maybe you look them up on Facebook or
something that's that's as close as you get to them.
And I think, what is so crazy about food Mac?
And we all know this, of course. I mean, the
attraction of this band is that, like, these two people
were forced to be in the same proximity for forty
years and it's so fucked up that they had to
do that. But it's amazing. It's so dramatic. It is

(15:59):
really fucked up, but also it's cool because then you know,
every amazing song that the other one presents is just
like spike in the ball in the face the other person.
It's the best and the worst of both, but to me,
it's mostly the worst. I think it's better you want
to spike it in your brain, you don't actually in
your proximity. But there a lot better adjusted than I am. Yeah,

(16:21):
maybe so. I mean, they have that toxic element to
their relationship, but there's also the reality that they sort
of need each other in order to completely fulfill their
sort of artistic potential, and there is sort of like
a functional dysfunctionality to their relationship, obviously because it resulted
in all this hugely successful, popular, beloved music, you know

(16:45):
that multiple generations enjoy all right hand, We'll be right
back with more rivals. Do you know much about the
Tango in the Nights? I yes, I was. Actually I
was about to to bring that up. It's just like
one of my favorite periods of their relationship because it

(17:08):
is like the ultimate sour and sweet situation, like where
do you feel, like, what in the hell were they
still doing each other's lives? But then you're also like, oh,
they kind of needed each other too at the same time.
But it's like the worst example of that because like
like Stevie Nicks was like she was like in a
bad one, was in rough shape. She was like coming
out of rehab and been overprescribed klonopin and just was

(17:31):
really I mean, she said later mean she lost years
of her life in Matt and I guess when they
were doing Tango the Night Apparently, Lindsey Bucking I'm installed
like a Winnebago at the end of the driveway of
the studio, so that I think Mick Fleetwood and Stevie
could go and indulge in in private, so we didn't
have to deal with it. She went to rehab for
cocaine addiction, and I mean, was that before the sessions?

(17:52):
I think it was just before Yeah, I think she
got out and then you said, yeah, she was prescribed
kolonopin as I don't know what as like an anti
was that anti anxiety which you're taking klonopin like quite
a bit of it. So she's like incoherent a lot
of the time. And I know, like one thing that

(18:14):
Stevin Nicks has talked about during the Tango in the
Ninth Sessions, like she's conceded that she was not in
good shape. A lot of the vocals that she was
laying down ended up being erased by Lindsey Buckingham because
Buckingham was producing the record, and she said, I mean,
her quote was, I'm sure they totally sucked. I'm sure.
But then she also talked about the fact that, like,
you know, Lindsey Buckingham was making this record at his
house and the vocal booth was in the vocal booth

(18:37):
was in the bedroom, like his bedroom. And again this
kind of goes back to that idea of like you
have an X, don't invite them in your bedroom exactly
the biggest X of your life. And now you're there,
you're in their bedroom again, and you know that there's
kind of you know they're they've moved on, they have
another person in their life, and like you're over them,
but like you never totally get over something like that,
especially if you have to be around them all the time.

(18:59):
So it's extremely fraught and it's a mess. And like
I think that Lindsey Buckingham and ended up having to
like stitch vocal takes together to like not full takes,
but like Stevie Nicks is barely on that record. I
said something like they spent a year on it. She
was there for like three weeks or something. I think
that's what he said later and in that whole period,
I mean he ended up quitting right after that. You

(19:21):
didn't go on the tour to promote it, and they
had it was in UM I think it was Stephen
Davis's biography gold Dust Woman, from I think two years
ago UM where they had some kind of physical altercation
where Lindsay apparently threw over the hood of his car
or something. And well that was Van intervened. I think
that was like in Mick Fleetwood's book, but yeah, because

(19:42):
because I know, like I think Stevie and Lindsay denied
that later that there was a physical thing, but yeah,
I know, like in Mick Fleetwood's book, he talked that
there was some sort of physical altercation at the end
of the Tango in the Night era and that sort
of led to Lindsey Buckingham leaving the band. I gotta say, though,
tang in the Night great record. I love that album.

(20:06):
What I'm more of a mirage guy controversial pain well,
I didn't you can be a mirage guy. And also
saying Tango on the Night as a banger man, I
mean also is weird because it's like it was sort
of aligned at the time. And I feel like if
you listen to like indie rock from the two thousand tens,
a lot of it sounds like Tango in the Night.
Like Tango on the Night ended up being like a
hugely influential record, um, and it just came out of

(20:31):
this like terrible period like where Lindsay Buckingham and Stevie
Nicks were like in a really bad way, and you know,
Lindsay ended up leaving the band. Um, we have to
talk about how Lindsey Buckingham got fired. Yes, the most
recent Lindsey Buckingham finally got fired from Fleetwood Mac. And
by the way, Lindsey Buckingham was hired in nineteen four

(20:53):
and he got Stevie Nicks into the band because Stevie
Nicks was his girlfriend. So now we flash forward four years,
four fucking years later, and I'm telling you this is like,
you know, the Long Come. You know Shakespeare, You know,
people overuse Shakespearean as like an adjective, but in this case,

(21:13):
a tragedy apt So they're Fleetwood Mac. They're playing I
think it's a Music Cares event in New York and
before they come out, you know, they're going to introduce
the band to come on stage. And as they're walking out,
they play Rhiannon, which is a natural thing to do,
one of the most famous Fleetwood Max songs. But apparently

(21:34):
this really annoys Lindsey Buckingham. And I don't know, like,
I don't feel like he rolls his eyes or something.
He kind of he's kind of like a snarky asshole
about it, and Stevie's trying to speak comes up. Yeah,
and like, what was he like at least smirking, And
I guess Christie mc via mc fleetwood start like slow
waltzing behind them. Just I guess it's like an inter

(21:54):
band joke that she talks for when she talks, she
goes on for a while. I don't know that's what
what they later said. His behavior at the Music Cares
event apparently really really annoyed Stevie so well, and you
also feel like, okay, there's probably again forty four years
pent up. It's like all the times, you know, Lindsey

(22:15):
Buckingham played go your Own Way, all the times he
said that her songs weren't that good and he had
to improve them a short, short fuse. All these things
have been building and building, and she's like, okay, well,
I'm in a band. This part of being in a band.
I can tolerate this. And then finally this Music Cares
event is apparently the strong that breaks the camel's back
because Lindsey Buckingham, it's two days later, he's watching he's

(22:38):
watching the Grammys. Irving as Off, one of the most
famous rock managers in music history. He's he's flutiod Max
manager and and he calls Lindsay and he says, you
really did it this time, dude. Stevie never wants to
be on stage with you again, is the quote. And
what is kind of like funny to me? And it

(22:59):
says he says so much. It's kind of funny to me,
it's also kind of heartbreaking. Lindsey Buckingham. Here's this and
he's like, okay, he doesn't really register that he's out
of the band. Like a couple of days later, he
calls Irving A's off back and he says, hey, wait
a second, wait, when you said that stuff about yeah,
when you said that she has want to be on
stage with me again, you meant did you mean that
she's leaving or that I'm fired? Like he kind of

(23:20):
thought like, well, maybe she's actually leaving and I'm still
in the band, and Irving azof has to tell him no,
like you've been ousted was the word. Apparently, when ousted.
She gave them an ultimatum. She said it's him or me,
and they chose Stevie and Lindsay is gone. And that's
kind of where we're at right now in this conflict.
It's still simmering. Lindsey bucking had ended up suing Fleetwood

(23:44):
Mac for like lost revenue. I don't you know what
they claims that because part of the main hurt was
that when he called Irving back was because he emailed
Mike Fleetwood after the first phone call and basically said,
you know, oh that's weird Stevie's gone and didn't get
a response MC Fleetwood and that's man like, oh something
something feels weird here. And then he called Irving back

(24:04):
and then you know, wait, wait, so she's leaving, right,
she's leaving off? Cool? Wait to let me on stage
with me again. Okay, that's cool, man, I'll be a
band rehressal. And next week she's leaving, right or am
I fired? Like you're gone, dude, you're done. That's his
brutal to me. And they apparently stuff and it said
you go through this lawsuit and there's like he sends

(24:26):
us like heartbreaking email to the band, lengthy, you know,
pouring his heart on the very ins sent from my iPhone,
which for some reason crassy. It was like the screenshot
of this email. Um, and apparently no one really wrote
back him. He got like two cryptic comments. I think
he got like John McVie saying that he wasn't allowed
to speak to him, and then um, but I guess
after they settled, Christine said something to him about how

(24:49):
like you know Stevie. He says that Christine said, you know, Stevie,
you know, I know on some level Stevie really wants,
you know, wants you to come home, which is like, sure, okay,
well that's the thing. Because, by the way, we should
say that Fleetwood Mac did a tour with Mike Campbell
from Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers and Neil Finn from
Crowded House. Very successful tour, sold out everywhere. I think

(25:11):
they've toured around the world. I I can only assume
that tours made tens of millions of dollars. Like people
did not give a ship that Lindsey Buckingham wasn't on stage,
which to me makes me sad because I actually sad.
I love Lindsey Buckingham. I've never seen Fleetwood Mac with
Lindsey Buckingham. But I did see Lindsey Buckingham play a
solo show five years ago in a high school auditorium

(25:34):
because he was doing this weird to or like where
he was doing kind of like out of the way
music venues. Where was that It was in Wisconsin. It
was an outside of Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and it was an
amazing show. And the thing about Lindsey Buckingham is that
when he plays Go Your Own Way for like the
ten billionth time in his life, his face has an

(25:55):
intensity to it. It's like almost twitching with like entered
g and hate and anger and hurt, and it's like
he is still reliving the emotions of that song every
time he plays it. In the same way I'm sure
that Stevie Nicks still relives Silver Springs every time she
sings that. And it's what makes those two I think

(26:15):
still very compelling, two people who are not baby boomers,
you know, like you talk to younger people, you know,
like Fleetwood Mac to me is like the one classic
rock band that has most transcended the generation Millennials love.
Millennials love Fleetwood Mac. Generation Z loves Fleetwood Mac. You know,
every every you know, like Lord talks about Fleetwood Mac

(26:36):
talks about Fleetwood Mac. You know, they have transcended. And
I think part of that, along which is having great songs,
is that sort of emotional authenticity, like they still have
this sort of live wire, soap opera quality to their
music where you feel like they are living. It's still
all these years later, and Stevie getting Lindsay fired from

(26:57):
Fleetwood Mac just kind of fuels that more. It's like, no, asshole,
I'm not over it. I'm not over all of the crap.
And yeah, I can do this to you man. And
like you know, going back to that quote like you
know about go your own way in Silver Springs, like
where they each said I want the person to hear
this song and I want them to suffer every time

(27:19):
that this is on the radio. I want them to suffer,
and I'm sure they do, so, you know, I mean
to me like, I mean, do you think it's over?
I don't. I don't can't believe it it's over. Yeah,
I can't. I can't. Yeah, I mean, I don't want
to believe that this is the end of Lindsey Buckingham
with Fleetwood Mac. I feel like there will be some

(27:41):
reconciliation at some point. I have no basis to say that,
and I would understand if Stevie Nicks really does feel like,
you know, screw this guy. I don't want to be
around him anymore. Years of history is telling you that
something will bring them exactly, you know, really like the
music cares thing is going to be the thing that

(28:02):
ends this relationship, like really after everything else, Like that's
going to be the thing that's the straw that breaks
the camel's back. I mean, as successful as Fleetwood Mac
was with touring with Mike Campbell and Neil Finn, that's
not Fleetwood Mac. And I don't think. And I think
if Lindsey Buckingham did rejoin, they could probably double the

(28:23):
ticket price and people would pay, would happily pay that,
you know, especially now, especially if you feel like they
haven't really reconciled. But they're in the same band because
they know it's good for money, you know, but they're
still gonna hate each other on stage. They're still gonna
play Silver Springs and like even have more hatred towards
each other. Well, here's the hypothetical, I mean kind of
a silly one, but rewinding back the six seventy seven,

(28:47):
if somehow they made it so that you knew nothing
about their personal relationships at all, just the band released
an album, how do you think it would have done?
Do you think it would have been this monumental, you know,
record breaking sales, you know, monolith or how do you
think that their history would have changed if you removed
the personal element from mat I think it would have
been a huge record because I think those songs are

(29:09):
amazing and they would have been hits no matter what.
I do think though, that Fleetwood Mac would maybe be
like Steely Dan sized instead of well, yeah, I think
I think they would be kind of talked about more
in the context of like every other seventies band, you know,
like a Steely Dan or you know, like a Peter
Frampton even you know, like artists that were just hugely

(29:29):
successful and are still played on classic rock radio. But like,
you know, someone like Frampton for instance, like there's no
narrative to his career, Like there's really nothing that you
could say about him that is interesting beyond the music
and that. And really, I mean that's also true like
Steely Dan, who's a band I love, but there's no
really like interesting, kind of larger narrative to their story.

(29:51):
And like with Fleetwood Mac, I feel like that story
it just it just ropes people in so much in
it adds to the music because they're writing about it
on their records. I think the fact that they come
from like a real experience just adds to the residents
of that and it never gets tired. And I think
it doesn't get tired because of you know, there's always

(30:12):
more feel there's always something else. We're gonna take a
quick break to get a word from our sponsor before
we get to more rivals. If you were going to
make a case for Lindsey Buckingham coming out ahead in

(30:34):
this feud, or if you're gonna make the pro Lindsay side,
I guess, like what would like what would be your case?
I guess I mean, I think how you feel about
Lindsey Buckingham. Also, you know, it's dictated by how you
feel about Tusk. I feel like we even talked about
Tusk and oh man um, you know, I think he
sort of brought there your favorite fluid mac record. I
feel like it's become almost it's become the one to
say I think, I I mean, I don't know, it's

(30:57):
it's definitely up there. I mean, I I like how
he was kind of doing the Brian Wilson, uh, you know,
messing with the formula thing. How I guess there's a
story when the first day that they went into the sessions,
he said to the engineer, Okay, set all the dials
where you usually said him, okay, now turn him add
and eighty degrees and we're going to see what happens.
And he would do, you know, put the microphone on
the floor and getting like a push up position and stuff.

(31:18):
It's like it's like, lindsay, that actually sounds terrible if
we do that, everything sounds distorted and uh and one
of them actually turns the machine off if you do that,
So like you can't do that with that one. You've
been you've been playing for three hours. You had to
turn off the machines didn't record anything. I mean, he
apparently was in kind of rough shape there. I guess,
um have you seen photos of him at that time,
because he cut his Yeah, freaked out in the shower

(31:40):
like like nail scissors and cut all his hair and
he has like the owl's eyes like where it's like
dark like rings around his eyes all the time. He
didn't wait for you know, two weeks on exactly. Just
I mean that is like that is like one of
the great cocaine records of all time, like the cocaine Yeah,
just just just insane. I mean when I listen to Tusk,
I always hear it as like a Lindsey Buckingham solo

(32:01):
record inside of a Fleetwood Mac record, because like one
of their white album kind of thing where it's like
a bunch of different artists just separately bringing this kind
of like alternates between like these kind of classic sounding
Fleetwood Max singles like Sarah, and then it would be
like sort of like a bizarre Lindsey Buckingham song, the Tusk,
the titles. I can't believe that song with a top

(32:22):
ten song or even like you know, so I think
it sounds like what makes you Think You're the One?
Which I always felt like, oh, like that's like a
modest mouse song, like but like twenty years before. You know,
there's like a lot of songs on that record, like
the Lindsey Buckingham songs that sound like indie rock. They
have like the kind of the production style of of
of indie rock because of the Brian Wilson thing, but

(32:43):
also because he was really into like the punk music
of that time. He was trying to punk album, doing
post punk record. I mean, I think the case for
Lindsey Buckingham is that he was the person most responsible
for guiding Fleetwood Mac creatively through that sort of golden
era from like eighties seven, like as a producer and

(33:06):
as a as an arranger of like other people's songs,
and even on the song Silver Springs, the producer of
the record, I think it's the engineering can count he
talks about just like all of these like guitars, that
the acoustic one. They would bring him a new guitar
every twenty minutes because they wanted fresh strings. Yeah, he
kind of painstakingly over dubbed all of these great guitars,

(33:29):
and I mean, that's an amazing song by itself, but
like he really put a lot of care into like
making this song sound as good as it could. Even
with the fact that that song is about him, you
know that he was able to do that. So, you know,
as borish as Lindsey Buckingham could be towards Stevie Nixon
and I think he could be pretty awful to her,
he was I think the chief of that band, and

(33:50):
I think he was acknowledged as such during their most
commercially successful period. I think we would make it such
a brand name now that maybe you can get rid
of Lindsay Buckingham and a lot of people don't care.
But I think for people that actually really love Fleetwood
Mac that is a pretty gaping hole. Here's a hypothetical too.
I mean, what if when Nick Fleetwood in nineteen four
went up to Lindsay and said, hey, you want to

(34:10):
you know, Bob Welsh, left leaning and new guitarist, you
want to join? He just said, yeah, sure, See Stevie,
how do you think history would have unfolded? I mean
that the answer to the hypothetical is that they would
have not been nearly as successful without Stevie Nicks. I
think they would have sounded like America meets E L
O right, which would be an awesome would you be great?
I mean, ye, wouldn't. I mean, I think they would
have made really cool records with Lindsey Buckingham. But I

(34:32):
think they would have been the kind of albums that
people rediscover, you know, years later, in the same way
that people do to the Bob Welch era and Danny
Kerwin era and you know, all the other Jeremy Spencer,
all those like early seventies Fleetwood Mac records that weren't
that successful at the time, but now people call back
and they're like, wow, these are these are amazing albums.
But you open the door to the pro Stevie argument,

(34:54):
and I think it's a much more obvious argument than
Lindsey Buckingham one. I mean, she is the star Fleetwood Mac,
and I think that has really become I think that
was true in the seventies and eighties, you know, because
a lot of the biggest hits were sung by Stevie Nicks,
and she also had the biggest solo career. As I said,
you do a side by side of their solo career,
it's you know, you can't even compare, You can't even compare.

(35:15):
I mean Lindsey Buckingham, I think, you know, in his defense,
was doing something I think consciously different from Fleetwood Mac.
He was kind of doing like weirder stuff on his
solo records, Like if you listen to like Go Insane,
that's that Lindsey Buckingham record which I think came out
it was like early eight You compare that to like Mirage,

(35:35):
Like Mirage is like a much more straight ahead pop
rock record, and then on his solo records he's doing
these sort of more bizarre experimental stuff and the interesting
thing is go Insane. He's a breakup album too. He
had just broken up with his girlfriend in the eighties,
the one who wrote a memoir recently, Sherry. I can't
remember now, but but yeah, that was. He did a

(35:57):
big profile on the Rolling Stone, like Lindsey Buckingham lowly
guy or something. That's the headline for it. That's a
that's a great profile. I forget the lead exactly what
it talks about. Like he's a great looking, rich guy,
but he's like miserable, you know, and he's like living
in this huge house in the mostly. I feel like
his default state is miserable. Yeah, I mean, like I said,

(36:19):
like when I saw him live, he was such an
electric presence, in part because there was something about him
that seemed unsettled. You know, that he wasn't just like
the typical rock star in his sixties who's kind of
done it all and knows he can just phone it in.
I didn't get that sense from him. And also the
fact that he was playing this high school auditorium, because

(36:39):
he had this speech about it at the beginning where
he talked about Fleetwood Mac being this big machine and
that in his solo career he kind of liked to
be more almost like an indie rocker type guy, to
kind of step outside the machine. I mean, ultimately that
might have also led to his firing from Fleetwood Mac,
because it seemed like he was kind of holding the
band hostage at times for you know, wanting to do

(37:02):
his own solo tours and that would prevent And that
was the official reason that the band kind of gave
for why that was that he wanted to hold up
their tour. It's solo stuff. It's like Lindsey wants to
play high school auditoriums. Meanwhile, we want to make a
billion dollars on the road. This guy is holding us back.
So fuck this guy will go hire Mike Campbell and
Neil Finn. That always blew me away, like how he

(37:23):
ended up in Fleetwood Mac. I can I can get
Mike Campbell because he's a guitar player, he's from you know,
he's part of that l A rock scene. Obviously, he
has a history with Stevie Nicks through Tom Petty Tom
Petty Um. But Neil Finn that just seemed like totally random.
I don't know how the hell he ended up in
the band, because I think they actually played like crowded
house songs on that tour, So I did like ringing

(37:45):
the all star band style or brought in his I
think they did like Don't Dream It's Over, Okay. I
don't think they were going to like wood Face Deep Cuts,
by the way, wood Face, that's a shout out for
our card and house listeners. Oh my god, that's good album,
by the way. So what is the case? And I
think we've articulated this already. Fort Stevie and lindsay to
kind of exist in harmony, you know, like how do

(38:07):
they how do they ultimately complement each other? The band
Fleetwood Mac. I think their identity is wrapped up so
much in the disharmony and dysfunction between those two. You know,
as you said earlier, like what would the band have
been without them, Probably would have been as they had
been in the early seventies as just sort of a
you know, a britt blues curio. Um. I think so

(38:29):
much of their identity is tied up in them together,
and there are there are a few or their complicated
relationship and yeah, and and it gives an edge to
their music it wouldn't have otherwise. I mean, a friend
of mine recently described Fleetwood Mac as yacht rock, and
I got into an argument with him because I was, like,
the thing with Fleetwood Mac is that even if their
music is kind of soft, there's nothing smooth about Fleetmod

(38:53):
Like Fleetwood Mac has always had this sort of rock
and roll credibility because of the tumultuous nature of their history.
There's fire there. There's like, you know, they might be
beautiful pop songs, but like there's nothing sort of like
contrived about it or manufactured. Like it's very raw emotionally,

(39:13):
and it's drawn from like real heavy stuff that they
sing about in a very sort of authentic way. And
they obviously have lived it, you know, well past the
fact of those hits, you know, and that's none more
true than with Lindsey Buckingham and Stevie Nicks. You know,
they still are hating each other, which also makes me

(39:36):
think that they must also seriously, like really lust that
for each other in some way too. You feel like
that fire is there too, if they if they still
can get it up to have this sort of rancor,
then they must be able to get it up in
other ways. If we can. If I may put it
somewhat indelicately. You know, there's a real passion that still

(39:57):
exists with them, and I just hope that it's not
the end. I hope that there is some sort of
way to get them back in the same band where
they can barely tolerate each other for another you know,
however many years Hey, now, hey, now, don't dream it off.
In the words of in the words of Fleetwood. So okay,

(40:19):
I think again. I think that's the big thing. Stevie lindsay,
get back together. Keep hating each other for us at Rivals.
I think we'd appreciate it. We need we need you
to keep hate each other. I hate each other together,
hate each other together. Please all right? Well, I feel
like we could talk about this forever. Oh this, Yeah,
I don't want this one to stop, but I feel

(40:39):
like we have to wrap it up. So this has
been Rivals, and it's always fun in Jordan's talking with you,
and uh, we'll talk to you again next week. Thank you, Sarah.
I always a blast, all right, Take care. Rivals is
a production of My Heart Radio. The executive producers are

(41:01):
Shawn Tytone and Noel Brown. We're supervising producers are Taylor
Chacogne and Tristan McNeil. I'm Jordan's Run Talk and I'm
Stephen Hyden. If you like what you heard, please subscribe
to leave us a review from more podcasts from my
heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
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