May 1, 2024 • 30 mins
Even before Beyoncé kicked off her solo career, it was clear that she was a legend-in-the-making. As the de facto leader of Destiny's Child, she was a guiding light for the girl group and helped shepherd them to stardom in both the pop and R&B spaces. The group was at their height (and still very much together) as she launched her solo career, first with "Work It Out" for the Austin Powers in Goldmember soundtrack but with more gusto on "Crazy in Love.
"Crazy in Love" served as the lead single for Beyoncé's debut solo album Dangerously in Love. The song was written in two hours and became a Number One hit the same week Dangerously in Love topped the albums chart. Beyoncé has developed significantly as an artist since then with her last two albums, Renaissance and Cowboy Carter, being prime examples of how she’s still growing and finding new ways to master her artistry even two decades after the world first got a taste of who Beyoncé was on her own.
On this week’s episode hosts Rob Sheffield and Brittany Spanos discuss Beyoncé's career trajectory and how the superstar ended up being the youngest artist with the most entries on the 500 Greatest Songs of All Time List. Later in the episode, they are joined by their Rolling Stone colleague Mankaprr Conteh to dig into the star's artistry and appreciation for Black music history, which she continues to embed in all her work.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to five hundred Greatest Songs, a podcast based on
Rolling Stones hugely popular, influential, and sometimes controversial list.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
I'm Britney Spanis.
Speaker 3 (00:08):
And I'm Rob Sheffield and we're here to shed light
on the greatest songs ever made and discover what makes
them so great. This week, we're diving into Beyonce.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
So Beyonce has six entries on the list. She is
the youngest artist with the most entries on the five
hundred Greatest Songs of All Time list. She has Savage
Remix with Megan Stallion at four thirty eight, Break My
Souls at four twenty eight, Destiny's Child, Say My Name
is at two eighty five, Single Ladies is at two
twenty eight, Formation is at seventy three, and Crazy in Love,
(00:39):
which is the song that we are going to be
saying a lot of time talking about, and of course,
the world's introduction to I mean well, proper introduction to
Beyonce comes in at number sixteen on the list.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Phenomenal, phenomenal song. Yeah, so unsurprising. Right from the start
with Destiny's Child, it was clear that you know she
was going to have this kind of epic run.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Yeah, yeah, it feels like six is like a small number.
I feel as we could add many more Beyonce songs
to the list. I feel like, did you have any
Beyonce on your ballot?
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Yeah? I had hold Up Yeah. Honestly, Lemonade is full
of songs. I could see every song from Lemonade being
on this list.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
I also had hold Up Online too, and I think
I had I'm pretty sure I had single Ladies as
well on my list, which is of course a classic,
and Crazy and Love is of course. I mean, that's
the highest ranking on the list of the Beyonce songs
and obviously encompasses so much of what we love about Beyonce.
It helped debut her as her second solo single after
work it out for the Austin Powers soundtrack, which I
(01:40):
Love was her solo debut was to release a song
for Austin Powers.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
It's so funny. I guess it could be argued whether
that's canon or not.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
I mean, I do love also the grip that Austin
Powers had on all the pop girls. But Crazy and Love.
Do you remember the first time that you heard the song?
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Absolutely? It was Summer soundtrack New York City. At least
thousand and three. Funny you mentioned Austin Powers. It's strange
that sort of the last remnant of the pre Crazy
and Love era was that Beyonce would be in a
movie like that just as a supporting role. That was
something that was clearly never going to happen again. After
(02:16):
Crazy and Love launched her into solo superstardom, nobody was surprised.
It was great. Yeah, everybody loved Destiny's Child. Everybody knew
that she was going to have a solo career eventually,
but it really launched her into the stratosphere.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
I think everyone knew that every member of this band
was going to be doing well and that Beyonce herself
was going to be a superstar no matter what she
was doing solo or with Dustiny's Child. So when Crazy
and Love came out, it was just like, obviously, this
is perfect, this is a great song, Like it's just
everything about it was built to be one of the
biggest pop pits, biggest summer anthems of all time.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
Yes, in two thousand and three, which was such a
phenomenal year for pop music, and it was big on
songs that you could call universal songs that absolutely everybody liked.
Earlier in the spring, there was the White Stripes Seven
Nation Army, a song that a high school marching band
is right this minute playing that song, and Crazy in
Love for This Summer, and then Hey Yeah for the
(03:11):
Fall by Outcast. Of course, these sort of across the board,
crowd pleasing songs that you could tell you were going
to be hearing for the rest of your life as
soon as you heard him for.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
The first time, and Hey Ya with the Beyonce mentioned
on the song too, another point of realizing that Beyonce
is going to be even larger than life, more so
than we could even imagine.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
It's true. The only way you could keep up with
Beyonce was a hit that called all the Beyonces and
Lucy Lou's to the dance floor.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
And I was reading about how the song came together
and the producer Rich Harrison talked about how he had
sampled the hook beat from this like seventy song called
are You My Woman? Beyonce at first fear that is
going to be too retro, that the horns and kind
of that sound would be a little too too retro
for the time, and then after she accepted the beat,
he wrote it in like two hours, and then she
(03:57):
came back and was talking about how she was like
looking at herself in the mirror and was like, I
look so crazy right now, and then wrote the bridge
and so like just that the song, which I love,
just like Beyonce getting inspiration from looking at herself in
the mirror. It's just like beautiful and perfect for the song.
And then the o's came together from both her and
Rich after the song was written, and Jay did his
(04:18):
verse in like ten minutes, and they spent like three
months working on the rest of the recording of the song,
which is I feel also like pretty.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Emblematic of like Jay was like, okay, here's ten minutes
and here's my verse.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
Rich Jarrison was so right about that horn fanfare. It's
from a classic track by the Shylights, Legends of seventies
soul Eugene Record, one of the best songwriters of the seventies.
For a song like that where it was an already
super mega famous star making her official solo debut, there
was something so grand and formal about the horn intro.
(04:51):
It was You've been waiting for years for this song.
Here it is.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
It feels like so many people have tried to imitate
that too. I feel like in the last two decades
like that is something that I think people have been
trying to continue to do in their own way, and
obviously Beyonce's is going to be the best version of that.
This sort of it doesn't feel retro at all, doesn't
feel like it comes from any other era other than
whatever era Beyonce wants it to be part of.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
It feels so current and fresh. Even if you hear
it for the first time.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
Today, absolutely, and hearing Destiny's Child for the first time,
it was very clear. The first hit was No No No,
which I loved in it's welled. In nineteen ninety eight,
they were still being marketed as y Clef Proteges, Yeah,
and the MTV version was in constant rotation, and No
(05:42):
No No was just a absolutely phenomenal song.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
There was a period in nineteen ninety nine where every
single rock star interviewed brought up Destiny's Child because that's
who everybody was obsessed with. It didn't matter what kind
of music they made, whether they were, you know, a
techno producer or you know, an English rock star, they
were absolutely going to talk about how great Destiny's Child
were That album just sounded so different. It had so
(06:06):
much futuristic energy and also so much personality with the
commandments between songs.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Yeah, and I think even just thinking about the way
that Beyonce presented herself in the group. They started off
as a foursome. There's the very infamous firing of the
first two girls, and then later a third girl that
came in and she was fired, and then we finally
get Michelle, and of course Beyonce and Kelly and Michelle
are the iconic trio that we know and love and
(06:32):
still sort of kind of coexist in a lot of
ways as Destney's Child. But you know, Beyonce was always
presented as the leader, as the person who was kind
of the director of the group, as the lead singer,
as the person who was sort of in charge.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
Jump and Jump In another absolutely iconic single from that album.
I always think of the trilogy of hits from the
year two thousand with Crazy and Love, jump and Jump In,
and then Independent Women from Destiny's Child their song for
the Charlie's Angels soundtrack. Another Lucy Lou reference. Lucy Lou
was getting mentioned in so many classic songs at that time.
(07:05):
It was a kind of thing where, even if you
already knew all the songs from the album, it was
always exciting when the latest tit would break. It felt
like it was chapters of an ongoing story.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Yeah, you mentioned that collective, that sort of girlhood and
that group being like these are you know, Kelly and
Beyonce are basically sisters. I mean they consider each other's sisters.
They've been with each other for their entire lives.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
There's all these.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Amazing home videos of Kelly and Beyonce and Solange dancing
in in the Knowle's home, and you know, it's such
a part of their life, and even with Michelle kind
of coming into their lives later, there is so much
of that sisterhood and the fact that the band stays
together even after, of course Crazy Love takes off. Beyonce's
solo career takes off.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
She's kind of.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Becoming larger than life in her own career, but the
group is still there for years after. You know, they
don't separate, for they still make more albums after all
of this after Crazy Love breaks out, which I think
is always such a special part of thinking about the
Beyonce story, thinking of the Dusty Child story was so
much more than just like this diva goes off and
does her own thing like this was always a part
(08:08):
of a bigger package and part of a bigger thing.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
I really love that aspect of it that she was
able to take off in this new direction soloise, but
the group still.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Continued, Especially at this time. This was when all the
pop groups are breaking up. Everyone sort of wanted to
be the solo star of those groups, and it was
super rare for the early two thousands to kind of
let that group continue to prosper and also have your
own solo hits on the side, and even just in
the way that she sort of constructed her her solo career,
thinking about the Crazy and Love performances with the Girls
(08:39):
on the Side, or the single Ladies video of course
being such like an iconic new version of that where
she had like the two female dancers kind of in
unison with her. It's still kind of a part of
how she sees herself as a performer.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
Yeah, totally, I love that Crazy in Love. It's so
wild that it was such a different sound from Destiny's.
When she's had a lot of solo work, especially on
her first three solo albums that sounded very much Destiny's
Childlike it's funny that single Ladies is one. I mean,
I think of that as the most Destiny's Child sounding
(09:13):
song of her solo career. And when she didn't do
it on the Lemonade tour, I thought, you know what, like,
I don't miss single Ladies at all, because she had
the Destiny's Child interlude that really paid respects. I love
how she put it in that tour. As you can tell,
the Lemonade tour is a moment I revisit in my
mind all the time. That is absolutely top live performance.
(09:34):
It's at the very top of live performances I've ever
seen or experienced. And the way she says, you know,
the first time that most of you met me, I
was in Destiny's Child about ten years ago, and I
want to thank you all for allowing me to grow,
and I want to thank you all for growing along
with me. And then she does that absolutely insane Destiny's
Child medlet. As you said, Beyonce's tour movies in themselves.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
Yeah, And when Beyonce's breaking, I always think of the
New York Times article that was Beyonce She's no Ashanti.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
I think about that one constantly, you know.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
I guess like for my own sort of like history
and thinking of it. Beyonce was just always she just
always felt larger than life. She always felt like something
that was like supernatural almost in the way that she
she looked and performed, and she just felt like almost
like this goddess of like pop music. But then seeing
that article later in life always just like makes me
(10:24):
laugh because I'm curious, like, was there did people were
people not as sold on Beyonce as a solo performer
when she first came out. If it was that sort
of like a consensus or was that kind of like
a rare opinion.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
In the Beyonce.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
Critical everybody was so into Beyonce, definitely critically, and in
the Destiny's Child era, everybody would have been fine if
it had continued really kind of being Beyonce's group. Yeah,
and that fascination with Beyonce that was so part of
Destiny's Child, But nobody was in naysayer about that solo career.
Chardonnay Sayer, I can refer the Great Horse Chardonnay her
(11:00):
cover star, But for Beyonce, one of the least surprising
solo blow ups ever.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
She especially because we're talking about this as we're in
act two of Beyonce's kind of you know, I think
three act musical sort of reclamation project that she's in,
reading about how she was fearful of the kind of
maybe too retro sound of the hook for Crazy and Love,
and thinking about everything she's done since then, and how
(11:28):
so much of her career and her music has been
about reclaiming black female music history, about kind of being
a teacher of this history in so many ways, thinking
about the centering of New Orleans on both like Deja
Vu and in the Formation video, or thinking about you know,
the sampling of when the Levee breaks on Don't Hurt Yourself,
and of course the country project that she has Cowboy
(11:52):
Carter and having a song about Linda Martel and obviously
renaissance in the black queer disco history that she puts.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
To the forefront.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
Have a great coming out moment for her and jay Z.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Yeah, I mean this was right after O three, Body
and Clyde, which was their first collaboration together. Back to back,
like two excellent songs, but obviously Crazy in Love is
just Chef's Kiss perfect.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
Absolutely, It's really just kind of great that this was
a song, like you said, like along with Bonnie and
Clyde where it was still really new and they were
being so discreet. I always remember after the Dangerously in
Love album that the VMA's where jay Z won an
award early in the night and just at the end
of his speech said what up be And then Beyonce
(12:33):
at the end of her speech later and then I
just said what up Jay and was like, oh my gosh,
the coolest way to do this.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
And I mean, it's so funny now.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
I feel like the Beehive kind of always gets annoyed
when there's a jay feature now, And of course, I
mean this was such a cool thing, you know, at
this time in her career, obviously jay Z being jay
Z and like, you know, the biggest rapper in the
game at that point, Like you know, it's just like
this was such a big deal for them to come
together and work on this music together.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
It's so funny. Just like I feel like, whatever, there's like.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
A hint of a jay Z feature now before like
please just let Beyonce be Beyonce.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
Absolutely very understandable. Also like soon after Dangerously in Love
and Crazy in Love, you have jay Z putting out
the Black album, which has such awesome Beyonce presence on it.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Yeah, I enjoy a lot of their stuff together. I
always I love her appearance and watch the Throne. I
think she has like obviously just such a good one.
But yeah, I think I think they're collaborations are really fun.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
I love it.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
I always remember the moment hearing for the first time
when he says, you know, I've got the hottest star
in the game wearing my chain. Yeah, And it was
so funny because that was such that was the beginning
of a holy story in the Yeah, and the Beyonce
and jay Z era.
Speaker 4 (13:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
And I think also the fact that he's at that time, Like,
I don't think people anticipated how much Heat stepped back
from releasing music and over the course of his career
and kind of go more into the business angle and
kind of seeing how Beyonce has shifted, Like, I don't
think anyone could have predicted kind of where they would
both be at this point obviously still two of the
(14:07):
most famous and successful people ever, but like, I think
no one could have predicted sort of the paths and
directions that they would have e taken creatively and professionally.
And you know, this is just the beginning, just the beginning.
You know, it's so fascinating to kind of see how
she's grown as an artist from that and how important
it has been for her to not only center the
(14:30):
history but modernize it in a lot of ways. Like
it's almost like Crazy in Love kind of unlocked something
for her and unlocked kind of a new way of
viewing herself as an artist or as a curator, as
someone who can sort of be that vehicle in a
lot of ways. I don't know if you kind of
see that as a similarity and how she's presented herself.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
It's so amazing what a huge part of her work
that is is her sense of history, which is just
mind blowing. Her deep saturation in music and in music history,
which was something that I think people were not fully
cognizant of until relatively later in her solo career, when
it was obvious from the beginning that she was somebody
(15:10):
who had studied who knew everything about music history. Really
from the beginning, she was always a scholar of different
types of music and different eras of music.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Yeah, especially with the self titled there was so much
of that that shift in giving her her do and
giving her respect for her artistry. I think that in
a lot of ways, in the same way that a
lot of pop artists, especially from the early two thousands
late nineties, who were seen as manufacturers, seen as you know,
like especially having someone who was like a kind of
(15:39):
a father manager who was overseeing so much of her
career for so long, and coming from a pop group
and coming from this very specific time and place of music,
was seen as sort of inauthentic in a lot of ways,
or seen as someone who, you know, there was all
these writers at her songs, Like you know, when people
do the comparison of like it's just Freddie Mercury who
wrote this song, and then there's like ten people on
(16:00):
on this, like it's like, okay, you know, it's like
more complicated than that. You know, it's artistry is it's
not just like it has to be one person writing
a song and that's you know, authenticity. But you know,
she's always been such like a huge music nerd. To me,
I always talk about this in the Taylor Switch classroom,
like they're the two biggest nerds in music, Like, I
(16:20):
think both of them have gone as far as they have,
and the reason why we compare them so much and
why we look at those two artists right now and
why they still continue to have such big careers is
because they're huge nerds.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Like they love music history.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
Even just like the Grammys after Crazy Love came out,
Beyonce's on stage performing a medley with Prince.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
There's so much prints.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
In the Dangerously in Love album, and it's kind of
like a perfect combination of her sort of pain homage,
but also showing kind of this like this connection musically
to who she is and what she's done. Thinking of
all the tributes she's paid to Tina Turner and Donna
Summer and Eda James, whether Eda James likes it or not,
you know, it's like all these and Aretha, whether or
(17:02):
not Aretha likes it, you know. It's like and just
kind of seeing the way that that's developed in her career,
Like she is such a student of music history, and
I think that is so undervalued in the way that
she had been very undervalued for way too long. I
think now people are really like, oh, yes, she is
like so knowledgeable about this because it's she's making it
clearer than ever for people who didn't.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
Get it before.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
Totally. I hope it's okay to say, Brittany, but the
way that you've written about Beyonce's music, nerdom and her
sense of history is always such a revelation anybody who
hasn't read Brittany's essay on the song Don't Hurt Yourself,
which she wrote, you know, the day after everybody heard
it for the first time. Brittany wrote this incredibly mind blowing,
still mind blowing to read with everything we know about
(17:45):
Beyonce and what she's done since then, but about Beyonce
and led Zeppelin and Memphis Mini and the whole history
of when the Levy Breaks, just one of my favorite
things ever written about pop music in the English language
in terms of her sense of history. A moment that
was totally mind blowing from the Lemonade tour, a tour
that was nothing but mind blowing moments, but where she
(18:08):
had the interlude in honor of Prince because of course,
Beyonce released Lemonade the weekend the Prince died, and everybody
was looking forward to the album. They thought it would
be released sometime that weekend. But when Prince died on
Thursday afternoon. People thought, well, maybe Beyonce will hold back
the album just out of respect or even just having
(18:29):
the moment to herself. But Beyonce being very in touch
with Prince and his spirit, you know, having worked together
while he was alive, but also carrying that torch the
Lemonade tour. The moment where she does her Prince tribute.
It's funny because when she starts, people think, oh, she's
gonna do maybe Purple Rain, because you could do a
couple verses of Purple Rain. It's a hit, it's a
(18:49):
power ballad, and she does the beautiful ones, which is
impossible to sing. It's impossible to excerpt. Once you start
singing the song, you have to go all the way through,
extremely long. This is a moment in her solo show.
There's eighty thousand people in Cityfield who want nothing more
than more Beyonce songs, and yet she does this honestly
(19:11):
physically impossible to sing tribute to Prince that is coming
so straight from the heart, but also the level of
artistry that goes into that performance and just really amazing.
Being grounded in that moment was so important to her
and her solo show and her Lemonade show that that
connection to history was something that she wanted to make
(19:33):
such a centerpiece of that show. Any song she does,
she really beyonceizes it. You know, there's no way for
her to sort of gesture at a song without stepping
in as a major part of its history. And her
performance of Alanis You Want to Know was a key
moment for her in terms of her solo artistry, as
as you said, reclaiming pieces of music and taking them
(19:56):
somewhere new. A version of You Ought to Know is
really phenomenal.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Her version of Sex on Fire by Kings of Leon
also incredible. Doesn't have to reclaim anything. I just really
like it, like, yeah, it's very good. And next we'll
be joined by our colleague, Rolling Stone staff writer Manka Perconte.
We are now joined by Rolling Stone staffire Manca Percante.
Thank you so much for being here today.
Speaker 5 (20:18):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
Oh yeah, a legend, true, true legend.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
Oh stop legends discussing legends.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Absolutely, And I know you were a huge Beyonce fan.
We are as well. I mean, tell me what you think.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Crazy and Love's set up for Beyonce as an artist
and kind of what was the tone that it's set
as a as a song and as a video for
who Beyonce would be outside of Dustiny's Child.
Speaker 4 (20:42):
It was our first taste of her ability to really
create moments, Like I think the thing that's incredible about
Beyonce is that there's so much world building, And it's
so funny because when you look at Crazy and Love
compared to the things that she's done since, it feels
so interestingtory because she's built out these like crazy musical
(21:03):
and visual landscapes. But like the fact that even though
it's just dance routines and outfits and setting, that it
can still be so seared into our memory that like,
she was also able to do it to a song
that I can't imagine sounded like anything else at the time,
Like you know, like we've written on the on Rolling
(21:23):
Stone or in Rolling Stone that like richeris and the
producer couldn't get anybody to really believe in the beat,
and you know Beyonce being like, oh, this sample is dope,
and yeah, I understand why we have these apprehensions, but
I hear something here that's so classic, so important, and
that I can shift into something modern and timely, and
I think she's always done that, Like I think Beyonce.
(21:44):
One of the most exciting things about her as an
artist too, is like she's such a historian, you know,
like she's she's so so schooled in pop culture, music,
black icons, history, Like I just I think that the
way that she's able to pull that into and create
very singular pop moments is really really dope.
Speaker 5 (22:03):
And I think that The Crazy and Love was like
the start of that.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
We were talking about her as a historian. Are you
that being just so crucial to her artistry from the beginning, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:13):
I mean, and I think that Renaissance really sealed that
in for me as like another point of respect for her,
because it's like you just go through the credits and
you look at what's been sampled and who she pulled
in to make sure that like she's not just like
touching the past, but like incorporating them into the present.
It was so fun, Like it's so fun to like
(22:33):
it's like a textbook kind of going through her work.
And I love that we all get to sit in
like her cultural class together when she releases.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
Yeah, you're kind of discussing that and how she kind
of carries that that legacy and also that history in
every album, and I'm curious, you know, obviously again like
self titled Lemonade and now Renaissance and Cowboy Carter are
such like very specific in how she's addressing that and
how she's making sure that it's very very clear that
like this history is so ingrained into the way that
(23:02):
she's producing the music, where she's performing, where she's singing.
And I'm curious kind of as you sort of developed
in your own relationship and listening to Beyonce's music, like,
what are there moments from pre Seltile, pre Lemonade that
made you kind of that you've re listened to and
sort of appreciated that you know, or maybe noticed for
the first time that history that she was carrying in
(23:23):
the way that she was performing and writing and producing
this music.
Speaker 4 (23:27):
Yeah, I think that I think about Deja Vu a
lot because even so, you know, I helped spearhead our
Beyonce's Greatest Songs list ahead of Renaissance, and we collectively
decided Deja Voo.
Speaker 5 (23:38):
We've had that as our number one.
Speaker 4 (23:40):
I think that you know, it has that big horn
sound just like crazy in Love, but it was so
unique and that it wasn't sample driven, it was her
taking the influences rather than just like taking a piece
of the work and creating something new for herself on
a blanker slate. And then thinking about the video too,
it's like there's African dance but this Southern Gothic imagery
(24:03):
that ties back to, you know, her cre all upbringing.
And I think that like that is one of my
earliest encounters with her, showcasing that part of her. So
I think DejaVu is also like very like seminal for
me and like my understanding of Beyonce. And it's also
like it's a song that I would rather listen to more.
I don't know. I think that maybe because Crazy in
Love like has I guess pop like lore to it.
(24:25):
I think that like there's something a little more refreshing
about each time.
Speaker 5 (24:29):
I hear Daja we probably cause we heard it less,
you know.
Speaker 4 (24:32):
But I think that's another moment where I was like,
oh wow, she is like really putting a lot of
stuff together that people aren't really touching.
Speaker 5 (24:38):
And that are also deeply a part of her, you know.
Speaker 4 (24:40):
And like jay Z's also on that song, and I
think that even her incorporating him into her work, is
her showcasing a deep part of herself as well?
Speaker 3 (24:48):
Yeah, touching on what you said about her connection to
global blackness, what do you see as her international sort
of impact or the impact of global blackness and her work.
Speaker 4 (24:59):
I think that like it's really important to portray blackness
like outside of like a monolith. And I think that
even you know, and I think that as we've seen
her do it, you know, it hasn't been without controversy, right,
like Black is King, people were like, Okay, what was
the impact and contribution of African artists to it? What
is Beyonce's relationship even performing on the continent. Why hasn't
(25:20):
she done a lot of that? Like it raises questions,
But I think that she like takes the step to
be like I can do all types of music and
all so much of our popular music comes back to
black traditions. I think that that is the thing that
she's always like putting forth in her music.
Speaker 5 (25:35):
You know, we've seen her do it with dance music.
Speaker 4 (25:37):
I think it showcases like just like how expansive like
we are as a people.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Yeah, I love thinking about how much of Beyonce's development
and not to say it's like the entirety of it,
but it does feel like a kind of an undercurrent.
Is this kind of like middle finger to a lot
of the expectations of her or where she's allowed to
be thinking even just like you mentioned Deja vous and Bide,
and I kind of vaguely remember a lot of the
conversation around the New Orleans imagery post Hurri Kane Katrina
(26:03):
that was happening on on this album versus like, you know,
when we sort of had a lot more kind of
of that respect for her in Lemonade and Information when
she was you know, also kind of HARKing back to
that or thinking about Cowboy Carder and how much of
the you know, how much of that is built off
of the experience she had the CMA Awards and how
unwelcome Beyonce was as Beyonce in like a space, which
(26:27):
is like crazy to think that Beyonce would enter a
room and anyone would be want to be chilly towards her.
But I mean, people in country music really hated Daddy Lessons,
and people in rock music really hated don't hurt yourself
and or really hypercritical of these moments when she was
experimenting with that, And I'm kind of curious, like how
you sort of see her fighting back against people who
(26:48):
won't welcome her in or won't let her sort of
enter a space in sort of any sort of simple
way or kind of let her experiment with her music
in that way.
Speaker 4 (26:55):
Yeah, And I think it's like because in the world
that I most immediately live in, like she's so obviously
like an icon, and it's like I kind of feel
like I find out about these things when she's like
I felt pushed out or terrible or like condemned, you.
Speaker 5 (27:10):
Know, like like the CMAS.
Speaker 4 (27:12):
I remember watching it, and I don't even remember perceiving
like I know that they had the audience shots, but
I don't even remember perceiving the like CHILEI responses. All
I have in my memories of that is thinking it
was so incredible, so incredible that she was working with
the Dixie Chicks, like thinking it sounded great.
Speaker 5 (27:29):
So I think that, like, I don't know, I think
that a lot of the work that I think.
Speaker 4 (27:32):
Is interesting, even that we do as music journalists with
these people who are big and a lot of respects
have everything is to kind of come back and see
these like very universal struggles, whether it be race, gender
that like aren't some of the most powerful people in
the world like also experienced. I think I probably more
actively think about her as making music for her people
(27:57):
who she sees as her people, then as as like
in response or like against critics. And it's like because
of just like the social spaces I inhabit, like it
takes a little bit more work.
Speaker 5 (28:08):
To think about it that way, you know.
Speaker 4 (28:10):
I think that also can be where some some of
the like more difficult conversations about Beyonce come from, right,
Like when we think.
Speaker 5 (28:17):
About Cowboy Carter and the flag, it's.
Speaker 4 (28:20):
Like this is like, you know, it's been such a
topic online, like this is a reclamation of her black
textan identity.
Speaker 5 (28:27):
But also like we're situated in.
Speaker 4 (28:29):
A global context and there's more to all of us
than just like the the individual places where we're from,
you know. So yeah, I mean, I like, I like
thinking about Beyonce when she's like actively doing something for
a people than against it.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
Yeah, we were talking a bit about specific songs that
she's done covers of or tributes to, or that she's
interpolated into her work. What are some of your favorites
from that aspect of what she does.
Speaker 5 (28:54):
We were actually just talking about this.
Speaker 4 (28:56):
I love her cover of You Out to Know Violance
That is my I love it so so much. I've
always loved that song, like growing up listening to like
alt rock radio with like my dad in like the nineties.
Hearing her saying it and making it feel like it
made it feel like closer to me. I don't know,
like it's just like it made it feel like it
made me feel more connected to the song. So that's
(29:18):
like when I think about covers, that's something that I
really really love.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
It's phenomenal. Yet that's one of the ones we talked about.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
And I have one final question for you, which is
I mean, I think, especially with Act two on our minds,
I'm curious what you think Act three is gonna be.
I mean, it's obviously part of a reclamation series. You know,
there's a lot of and I know the prevalent theory
is a rock album, but I'm curious if you think
it's gonna be that or something different from her for
Act three of this three acting musical project.
Speaker 4 (29:46):
No, that's where my head is at too, especially with
the I think it was a cr fashion book photo shoot.
People thought that that was maybe like an inkling towards
what she might be doing next. Like I think when
we think about like American pop music and like black
contribution it and the way they either have been like
erased or like uplifted like rock and roll, I think
is at like the center. And so that's what I'm
(30:06):
thinking will be next. But I would love to be surprised.
I mean, and I'm also trying to think, like what
hasn't she done? You know, So that's kind of where
my head is at too.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
Yeah, maybe we'll get Alanis in Kings of Leon.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
On the album.
Speaker 3 (30:19):
That would be phenomenal.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Oh, thank you so much, Marcopher. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (30:23):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
Thanks so much for listening to Rolling Stone's five hundred
Greatest Songs. This podcast is brought to you by Rolling
Stone and iHeartMedia Britten. Hosted by Me Britney Spanos and
Rob Sheffield. Executive produced by Gus Winner, Jason Fine, Alex Dale,
and Christian Horde, and produced by Jesse Cannon with music
supervision by Eric Zeiler.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
Thanks so much for listening
Welcome to five hundred Greatest Songs, a podcast based on
Rolling Stones hugely popular, influential, and sometimes controversial list.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
I'm Britney Spanis.
Speaker 3 (00:08):
And I'm Rob Sheffield and we're here to shed light
on the greatest songs ever made and discover what makes
them so great. This week, we're diving into Beyonce.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
So Beyonce has six entries on the list. She is
the youngest artist with the most entries on the five
hundred Greatest Songs of All Time list. She has Savage
Remix with Megan Stallion at four thirty eight, Break My
Souls at four twenty eight, Destiny's Child, Say My Name
is at two eighty five, Single Ladies is at two
twenty eight, Formation is at seventy three, and Crazy in Love,
(00:39):
which is the song that we are going to be
saying a lot of time talking about, and of course,
the world's introduction to I mean well, proper introduction to
Beyonce comes in at number sixteen on the list.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Phenomenal, phenomenal song. Yeah, so unsurprising. Right from the start
with Destiny's Child, it was clear that you know she
was going to have this kind of epic run.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Yeah, yeah, it feels like six is like a small number.
I feel as we could add many more Beyonce songs
to the list. I feel like, did you have any
Beyonce on your ballot?
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Yeah? I had hold Up Yeah. Honestly, Lemonade is full
of songs. I could see every song from Lemonade being
on this list.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
I also had hold Up Online too, and I think
I had I'm pretty sure I had single Ladies as
well on my list, which is of course a classic,
and Crazy and Love is of course. I mean, that's
the highest ranking on the list of the Beyonce songs
and obviously encompasses so much of what we love about Beyonce.
It helped debut her as her second solo single after
work it out for the Austin Powers soundtrack, which I
(01:40):
Love was her solo debut was to release a song
for Austin Powers.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
It's so funny. I guess it could be argued whether
that's canon or not.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
I mean, I do love also the grip that Austin
Powers had on all the pop girls. But Crazy and Love.
Do you remember the first time that you heard the song?
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Absolutely? It was Summer soundtrack New York City. At least
thousand and three. Funny you mentioned Austin Powers. It's strange
that sort of the last remnant of the pre Crazy
and Love era was that Beyonce would be in a
movie like that just as a supporting role. That was
something that was clearly never going to happen again. After
(02:16):
Crazy and Love launched her into solo superstardom, nobody was surprised.
It was great. Yeah, everybody loved Destiny's Child. Everybody knew
that she was going to have a solo career eventually,
but it really launched her into the stratosphere.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
I think everyone knew that every member of this band
was going to be doing well and that Beyonce herself
was going to be a superstar no matter what she
was doing solo or with Dustiny's Child. So when Crazy
and Love came out, it was just like, obviously, this
is perfect, this is a great song, Like it's just
everything about it was built to be one of the
biggest pop pits, biggest summer anthems of all time.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
Yes, in two thousand and three, which was such a
phenomenal year for pop music, and it was big on
songs that you could call universal songs that absolutely everybody liked.
Earlier in the spring, there was the White Stripes Seven
Nation Army, a song that a high school marching band
is right this minute playing that song, and Crazy in
Love for This Summer, and then Hey Yeah for the
(03:11):
Fall by Outcast. Of course, these sort of across the board,
crowd pleasing songs that you could tell you were going
to be hearing for the rest of your life as
soon as you heard him for.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
The first time, and Hey Ya with the Beyonce mentioned
on the song too, another point of realizing that Beyonce
is going to be even larger than life, more so
than we could even imagine.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
It's true. The only way you could keep up with
Beyonce was a hit that called all the Beyonces and
Lucy Lou's to the dance floor.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
And I was reading about how the song came together
and the producer Rich Harrison talked about how he had
sampled the hook beat from this like seventy song called
are You My Woman? Beyonce at first fear that is
going to be too retro, that the horns and kind
of that sound would be a little too too retro
for the time, and then after she accepted the beat,
he wrote it in like two hours, and then she
(03:57):
came back and was talking about how she was like
looking at herself in the mirror and was like, I
look so crazy right now, and then wrote the bridge
and so like just that the song, which I love,
just like Beyonce getting inspiration from looking at herself in
the mirror. It's just like beautiful and perfect for the song.
And then the o's came together from both her and
Rich after the song was written, and Jay did his
(04:18):
verse in like ten minutes, and they spent like three
months working on the rest of the recording of the song,
which is I feel also like pretty.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Emblematic of like Jay was like, okay, here's ten minutes
and here's my verse.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
Rich Jarrison was so right about that horn fanfare. It's
from a classic track by the Shylights, Legends of seventies
soul Eugene Record, one of the best songwriters of the seventies.
For a song like that where it was an already
super mega famous star making her official solo debut, there
was something so grand and formal about the horn intro.
(04:51):
It was You've been waiting for years for this song.
Here it is.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
It feels like so many people have tried to imitate
that too. I feel like in the last two decades
like that is something that I think people have been
trying to continue to do in their own way, and
obviously Beyonce's is going to be the best version of that.
This sort of it doesn't feel retro at all, doesn't
feel like it comes from any other era other than
whatever era Beyonce wants it to be part of.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
It feels so current and fresh. Even if you hear
it for the first time.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
Today, absolutely, and hearing Destiny's Child for the first time,
it was very clear. The first hit was No No No,
which I loved in it's welled. In nineteen ninety eight,
they were still being marketed as y Clef Proteges, Yeah,
and the MTV version was in constant rotation, and No
(05:42):
No No was just a absolutely phenomenal song.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
There was a period in nineteen ninety nine where every
single rock star interviewed brought up Destiny's Child because that's
who everybody was obsessed with. It didn't matter what kind
of music they made, whether they were, you know, a
techno producer or you know, an English rock star, they
were absolutely going to talk about how great Destiny's Child
were That album just sounded so different. It had so
(06:06):
much futuristic energy and also so much personality with the
commandments between songs.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Yeah, and I think even just thinking about the way
that Beyonce presented herself in the group. They started off
as a foursome. There's the very infamous firing of the
first two girls, and then later a third girl that
came in and she was fired, and then we finally
get Michelle, and of course Beyonce and Kelly and Michelle
are the iconic trio that we know and love and
(06:32):
still sort of kind of coexist in a lot of
ways as Destney's Child. But you know, Beyonce was always
presented as the leader, as the person who was kind
of the director of the group, as the lead singer,
as the person who was sort of in charge.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
Jump and Jump In another absolutely iconic single from that album.
I always think of the trilogy of hits from the
year two thousand with Crazy and Love, jump and Jump In,
and then Independent Women from Destiny's Child their song for
the Charlie's Angels soundtrack. Another Lucy Lou reference. Lucy Lou
was getting mentioned in so many classic songs at that time.
(07:05):
It was a kind of thing where, even if you
already knew all the songs from the album, it was
always exciting when the latest tit would break. It felt
like it was chapters of an ongoing story.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Yeah, you mentioned that collective, that sort of girlhood and
that group being like these are you know, Kelly and
Beyonce are basically sisters. I mean they consider each other's sisters.
They've been with each other for their entire lives.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
There's all these.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Amazing home videos of Kelly and Beyonce and Solange dancing
in in the Knowle's home, and you know, it's such
a part of their life, and even with Michelle kind
of coming into their lives later, there is so much
of that sisterhood and the fact that the band stays
together even after, of course Crazy Love takes off. Beyonce's
solo career takes off.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
She's kind of.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Becoming larger than life in her own career, but the
group is still there for years after. You know, they
don't separate, for they still make more albums after all
of this after Crazy Love breaks out, which I think
is always such a special part of thinking about the
Beyonce story, thinking of the Dusty Child story was so
much more than just like this diva goes off and
does her own thing like this was always a part
(08:08):
of a bigger package and part of a bigger thing.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
I really love that aspect of it that she was
able to take off in this new direction soloise, but
the group still.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Continued, Especially at this time. This was when all the
pop groups are breaking up. Everyone sort of wanted to
be the solo star of those groups, and it was
super rare for the early two thousands to kind of
let that group continue to prosper and also have your
own solo hits on the side, and even just in
the way that she sort of constructed her her solo career,
thinking about the Crazy and Love performances with the Girls
(08:39):
on the Side, or the single Ladies video of course
being such like an iconic new version of that where
she had like the two female dancers kind of in
unison with her. It's still kind of a part of
how she sees herself as a performer.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
Yeah, totally, I love that Crazy in Love. It's so
wild that it was such a different sound from Destiny's.
When she's had a lot of solo work, especially on
her first three solo albums that sounded very much Destiny's
Childlike it's funny that single Ladies is one. I mean,
I think of that as the most Destiny's Child sounding
(09:13):
song of her solo career. And when she didn't do
it on the Lemonade tour, I thought, you know what, like,
I don't miss single Ladies at all, because she had
the Destiny's Child interlude that really paid respects. I love
how she put it in that tour. As you can tell,
the Lemonade tour is a moment I revisit in my
mind all the time. That is absolutely top live performance.
(09:34):
It's at the very top of live performances I've ever
seen or experienced. And the way she says, you know,
the first time that most of you met me, I
was in Destiny's Child about ten years ago, and I
want to thank you all for allowing me to grow,
and I want to thank you all for growing along
with me. And then she does that absolutely insane Destiny's
Child medlet. As you said, Beyonce's tour movies in themselves.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
Yeah, And when Beyonce's breaking, I always think of the
New York Times article that was Beyonce She's no Ashanti.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
I think about that one constantly, you know.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
I guess like for my own sort of like history
and thinking of it. Beyonce was just always she just
always felt larger than life. She always felt like something
that was like supernatural almost in the way that she
she looked and performed, and she just felt like almost
like this goddess of like pop music. But then seeing
that article later in life always just like makes me
(10:24):
laugh because I'm curious, like, was there did people were
people not as sold on Beyonce as a solo performer
when she first came out. If it was that sort
of like a consensus or was that kind of like
a rare opinion.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
In the Beyonce.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
Critical everybody was so into Beyonce, definitely critically, and in
the Destiny's Child era, everybody would have been fine if
it had continued really kind of being Beyonce's group. Yeah,
and that fascination with Beyonce that was so part of
Destiny's Child, But nobody was in naysayer about that solo career.
Chardonnay Sayer, I can refer the Great Horse Chardonnay her
(11:00):
cover star, But for Beyonce, one of the least surprising
solo blow ups ever.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
She especially because we're talking about this as we're in
act two of Beyonce's kind of you know, I think
three act musical sort of reclamation project that she's in,
reading about how she was fearful of the kind of
maybe too retro sound of the hook for Crazy and Love,
and thinking about everything she's done since then, and how
(11:28):
so much of her career and her music has been
about reclaiming black female music history, about kind of being
a teacher of this history in so many ways, thinking
about the centering of New Orleans on both like Deja
Vu and in the Formation video, or thinking about you know,
the sampling of when the Levee breaks on Don't Hurt Yourself,
and of course the country project that she has Cowboy
(11:52):
Carter and having a song about Linda Martel and obviously
renaissance in the black queer disco history that she puts.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
To the forefront.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
Have a great coming out moment for her and jay Z.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Yeah, I mean this was right after O three, Body
and Clyde, which was their first collaboration together. Back to back,
like two excellent songs, but obviously Crazy in Love is
just Chef's Kiss perfect.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
Absolutely, It's really just kind of great that this was
a song, like you said, like along with Bonnie and
Clyde where it was still really new and they were
being so discreet. I always remember after the Dangerously in
Love album that the VMA's where jay Z won an
award early in the night and just at the end
of his speech said what up be And then Beyonce
(12:33):
at the end of her speech later and then I
just said what up Jay and was like, oh my gosh,
the coolest way to do this.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
And I mean, it's so funny now.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
I feel like the Beehive kind of always gets annoyed
when there's a jay feature now, And of course, I
mean this was such a cool thing, you know, at
this time in her career, obviously jay Z being jay
Z and like, you know, the biggest rapper in the
game at that point, Like you know, it's just like
this was such a big deal for them to come
together and work on this music together.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
It's so funny. Just like I feel like, whatever, there's like.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
A hint of a jay Z feature now before like
please just let Beyonce be Beyonce.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
Absolutely very understandable. Also like soon after Dangerously in Love
and Crazy in Love, you have jay Z putting out
the Black album, which has such awesome Beyonce presence on it.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Yeah, I enjoy a lot of their stuff together. I
always I love her appearance and watch the Throne. I
think she has like obviously just such a good one.
But yeah, I think I think they're collaborations are really fun.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
I love it.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
I always remember the moment hearing for the first time
when he says, you know, I've got the hottest star
in the game wearing my chain. Yeah, And it was
so funny because that was such that was the beginning
of a holy story in the Yeah, and the Beyonce
and jay Z era.
Speaker 4 (13:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
And I think also the fact that he's at that time, Like,
I don't think people anticipated how much Heat stepped back
from releasing music and over the course of his career
and kind of go more into the business angle and
kind of seeing how Beyonce has shifted, Like, I don't
think anyone could have predicted kind of where they would
both be at this point obviously still two of the
(14:07):
most famous and successful people ever, but like, I think
no one could have predicted sort of the paths and
directions that they would have e taken creatively and professionally.
And you know, this is just the beginning, just the beginning.
You know, it's so fascinating to kind of see how
she's grown as an artist from that and how important
it has been for her to not only center the
(14:30):
history but modernize it in a lot of ways. Like
it's almost like Crazy in Love kind of unlocked something
for her and unlocked kind of a new way of
viewing herself as an artist or as a curator, as
someone who can sort of be that vehicle in a
lot of ways. I don't know if you kind of
see that as a similarity and how she's presented herself.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
It's so amazing what a huge part of her work
that is is her sense of history, which is just
mind blowing. Her deep saturation in music and in music history,
which was something that I think people were not fully
cognizant of until relatively later in her solo career, when
it was obvious from the beginning that she was somebody
(15:10):
who had studied who knew everything about music history. Really
from the beginning, she was always a scholar of different
types of music and different eras of music.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Yeah, especially with the self titled there was so much
of that that shift in giving her her do and
giving her respect for her artistry. I think that in
a lot of ways, in the same way that a
lot of pop artists, especially from the early two thousands
late nineties, who were seen as manufacturers, seen as you know,
like especially having someone who was like a kind of
(15:39):
a father manager who was overseeing so much of her
career for so long, and coming from a pop group
and coming from this very specific time and place of music,
was seen as sort of inauthentic in a lot of ways,
or seen as someone who, you know, there was all
these writers at her songs, Like you know, when people
do the comparison of like it's just Freddie Mercury who
wrote this song, and then there's like ten people on
(16:00):
on this, like it's like, okay, you know, it's like
more complicated than that. You know, it's artistry is it's
not just like it has to be one person writing
a song and that's you know, authenticity. But you know,
she's always been such like a huge music nerd. To me,
I always talk about this in the Taylor Switch classroom,
like they're the two biggest nerds in music, Like, I
(16:20):
think both of them have gone as far as they have,
and the reason why we compare them so much and
why we look at those two artists right now and
why they still continue to have such big careers is
because they're huge nerds.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Like they love music history.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
Even just like the Grammys after Crazy Love came out,
Beyonce's on stage performing a medley with Prince.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
There's so much prints.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
In the Dangerously in Love album, and it's kind of
like a perfect combination of her sort of pain homage,
but also showing kind of this like this connection musically
to who she is and what she's done. Thinking of
all the tributes she's paid to Tina Turner and Donna
Summer and Eda James, whether Eda James likes it or not,
you know, it's like all these and Aretha, whether or
(17:02):
not Aretha likes it, you know. It's like and just
kind of seeing the way that that's developed in her career,
Like she is such a student of music history, and
I think that is so undervalued in the way that
she had been very undervalued for way too long. I
think now people are really like, oh, yes, she is
like so knowledgeable about this because it's she's making it
clearer than ever for people who didn't.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
Get it before.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
Totally. I hope it's okay to say, Brittany, but the
way that you've written about Beyonce's music, nerdom and her
sense of history is always such a revelation anybody who
hasn't read Brittany's essay on the song Don't Hurt Yourself,
which she wrote, you know, the day after everybody heard
it for the first time. Brittany wrote this incredibly mind blowing,
still mind blowing to read with everything we know about
(17:45):
Beyonce and what she's done since then, but about Beyonce
and led Zeppelin and Memphis Mini and the whole history
of when the Levy Breaks, just one of my favorite
things ever written about pop music in the English language
in terms of her sense of history. A moment that
was totally mind blowing from the Lemonade tour, a tour
that was nothing but mind blowing moments, but where she
(18:08):
had the interlude in honor of Prince because of course,
Beyonce released Lemonade the weekend the Prince died, and everybody
was looking forward to the album. They thought it would
be released sometime that weekend. But when Prince died on
Thursday afternoon. People thought, well, maybe Beyonce will hold back
the album just out of respect or even just having
(18:29):
the moment to herself. But Beyonce being very in touch
with Prince and his spirit, you know, having worked together
while he was alive, but also carrying that torch the
Lemonade tour. The moment where she does her Prince tribute.
It's funny because when she starts, people think, oh, she's
gonna do maybe Purple Rain, because you could do a
couple verses of Purple Rain. It's a hit, it's a
(18:49):
power ballad, and she does the beautiful ones, which is
impossible to sing. It's impossible to excerpt. Once you start
singing the song, you have to go all the way through,
extremely long. This is a moment in her solo show.
There's eighty thousand people in Cityfield who want nothing more
than more Beyonce songs, and yet she does this honestly
(19:11):
physically impossible to sing tribute to Prince that is coming
so straight from the heart, but also the level of
artistry that goes into that performance and just really amazing.
Being grounded in that moment was so important to her
and her solo show and her Lemonade show that that
connection to history was something that she wanted to make
(19:33):
such a centerpiece of that show. Any song she does,
she really beyonceizes it. You know, there's no way for
her to sort of gesture at a song without stepping
in as a major part of its history. And her
performance of Alanis You Want to Know was a key
moment for her in terms of her solo artistry, as
as you said, reclaiming pieces of music and taking them
(19:56):
somewhere new. A version of You Ought to Know is
really phenomenal.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Her version of Sex on Fire by Kings of Leon
also incredible. Doesn't have to reclaim anything. I just really
like it, like, yeah, it's very good. And next we'll
be joined by our colleague, Rolling Stone staff writer Manka Perconte.
We are now joined by Rolling Stone staffire Manca Percante.
Thank you so much for being here today.
Speaker 5 (20:18):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
Oh yeah, a legend, true, true legend.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
Oh stop legends discussing legends.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Absolutely, And I know you were a huge Beyonce fan.
We are as well. I mean, tell me what you think.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Crazy and Love's set up for Beyonce as an artist
and kind of what was the tone that it's set
as a as a song and as a video for
who Beyonce would be outside of Dustiny's Child.
Speaker 4 (20:42):
It was our first taste of her ability to really
create moments, Like I think the thing that's incredible about
Beyonce is that there's so much world building, And it's
so funny because when you look at Crazy and Love
compared to the things that she's done since, it feels
so interestingtory because she's built out these like crazy musical
(21:03):
and visual landscapes. But like the fact that even though
it's just dance routines and outfits and setting, that it
can still be so seared into our memory that like,
she was also able to do it to a song
that I can't imagine sounded like anything else at the time,
Like you know, like we've written on the on Rolling
(21:23):
Stone or in Rolling Stone that like richeris and the
producer couldn't get anybody to really believe in the beat,
and you know Beyonce being like, oh, this sample is dope,
and yeah, I understand why we have these apprehensions, but
I hear something here that's so classic, so important, and
that I can shift into something modern and timely, and
I think she's always done that, Like I think Beyonce.
(21:44):
One of the most exciting things about her as an
artist too, is like she's such a historian, you know,
like she's she's so so schooled in pop culture, music,
black icons, history, Like I just I think that the
way that she's able to pull that into and create
very singular pop moments is really really dope.
Speaker 5 (22:03):
And I think that The Crazy and Love was like
the start of that.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
We were talking about her as a historian. Are you
that being just so crucial to her artistry from the beginning, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:13):
I mean, and I think that Renaissance really sealed that
in for me as like another point of respect for her,
because it's like you just go through the credits and
you look at what's been sampled and who she pulled
in to make sure that like she's not just like
touching the past, but like incorporating them into the present.
It was so fun, Like it's so fun to like
(22:33):
it's like a textbook kind of going through her work.
And I love that we all get to sit in
like her cultural class together when she releases.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
Yeah, you're kind of discussing that and how she kind
of carries that that legacy and also that history in
every album, and I'm curious, you know, obviously again like
self titled Lemonade and now Renaissance and Cowboy Carter are
such like very specific in how she's addressing that and
how she's making sure that it's very very clear that
like this history is so ingrained into the way that
(23:02):
she's producing the music, where she's performing, where she's singing.
And I'm curious kind of as you sort of developed
in your own relationship and listening to Beyonce's music, like,
what are there moments from pre Seltile, pre Lemonade that
made you kind of that you've re listened to and
sort of appreciated that you know, or maybe noticed for
the first time that history that she was carrying in
(23:23):
the way that she was performing and writing and producing
this music.
Speaker 4 (23:27):
Yeah, I think that I think about Deja Vu a
lot because even so, you know, I helped spearhead our
Beyonce's Greatest Songs list ahead of Renaissance, and we collectively
decided Deja Voo.
Speaker 5 (23:38):
We've had that as our number one.
Speaker 4 (23:40):
I think that you know, it has that big horn
sound just like crazy in Love, but it was so
unique and that it wasn't sample driven, it was her
taking the influences rather than just like taking a piece
of the work and creating something new for herself on
a blanker slate. And then thinking about the video too,
it's like there's African dance but this Southern Gothic imagery
(24:03):
that ties back to, you know, her cre all upbringing.
And I think that like that is one of my
earliest encounters with her, showcasing that part of her. So
I think DejaVu is also like very like seminal for
me and like my understanding of Beyonce. And it's also
like it's a song that I would rather listen to more.
I don't know. I think that maybe because Crazy in
Love like has I guess pop like lore to it.
(24:25):
I think that like there's something a little more refreshing
about each time.
Speaker 5 (24:29):
I hear Daja we probably cause we heard it less,
you know.
Speaker 4 (24:32):
But I think that's another moment where I was like,
oh wow, she is like really putting a lot of
stuff together that people aren't really touching.
Speaker 5 (24:38):
And that are also deeply a part of her, you know.
Speaker 4 (24:40):
And like jay Z's also on that song, and I
think that even her incorporating him into her work, is
her showcasing a deep part of herself as well?
Speaker 3 (24:48):
Yeah, touching on what you said about her connection to
global blackness, what do you see as her international sort
of impact or the impact of global blackness and her work.
Speaker 4 (24:59):
I think that like it's really important to portray blackness
like outside of like a monolith. And I think that
even you know, and I think that as we've seen
her do it, you know, it hasn't been without controversy, right,
like Black is King, people were like, Okay, what was
the impact and contribution of African artists to it? What
is Beyonce's relationship even performing on the continent. Why hasn't
(25:20):
she done a lot of that? Like it raises questions,
But I think that she like takes the step to
be like I can do all types of music and
all so much of our popular music comes back to
black traditions. I think that that is the thing that
she's always like putting forth in her music.
Speaker 5 (25:35):
You know, we've seen her do it with dance music.
Speaker 4 (25:37):
I think it showcases like just like how expansive like
we are as a people.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Yeah, I love thinking about how much of Beyonce's development
and not to say it's like the entirety of it,
but it does feel like a kind of an undercurrent.
Is this kind of like middle finger to a lot
of the expectations of her or where she's allowed to
be thinking even just like you mentioned Deja vous and Bide,
and I kind of vaguely remember a lot of the
conversation around the New Orleans imagery post Hurri Kane Katrina
(26:03):
that was happening on on this album versus like, you know,
when we sort of had a lot more kind of
of that respect for her in Lemonade and Information when
she was you know, also kind of HARKing back to
that or thinking about Cowboy Carder and how much of
the you know, how much of that is built off
of the experience she had the CMA Awards and how
unwelcome Beyonce was as Beyonce in like a space, which
(26:27):
is like crazy to think that Beyonce would enter a
room and anyone would be want to be chilly towards her.
But I mean, people in country music really hated Daddy Lessons,
and people in rock music really hated don't hurt yourself
and or really hypercritical of these moments when she was
experimenting with that, And I'm kind of curious, like how
you sort of see her fighting back against people who
(26:48):
won't welcome her in or won't let her sort of
enter a space in sort of any sort of simple
way or kind of let her experiment with her music
in that way.
Speaker 4 (26:55):
Yeah, And I think it's like because in the world
that I most immediately live in, like she's so obviously
like an icon, and it's like I kind of feel
like I find out about these things when she's like
I felt pushed out or terrible or like condemned, you.
Speaker 5 (27:10):
Know, like like the CMAS.
Speaker 4 (27:12):
I remember watching it, and I don't even remember perceiving
like I know that they had the audience shots, but
I don't even remember perceiving the like CHILEI responses. All
I have in my memories of that is thinking it
was so incredible, so incredible that she was working with
the Dixie Chicks, like thinking it sounded great.
Speaker 5 (27:29):
So I think that, like, I don't know, I think
that a lot of the work that I think.
Speaker 4 (27:32):
Is interesting, even that we do as music journalists with
these people who are big and a lot of respects
have everything is to kind of come back and see
these like very universal struggles, whether it be race, gender
that like aren't some of the most powerful people in
the world like also experienced. I think I probably more
actively think about her as making music for her people
(27:57):
who she sees as her people, then as as like
in response or like against critics. And it's like because
of just like the social spaces I inhabit, like it
takes a little bit more work.
Speaker 5 (28:08):
To think about it that way, you know.
Speaker 4 (28:10):
I think that also can be where some some of
the like more difficult conversations about Beyonce come from, right,
Like when we think.
Speaker 5 (28:17):
About Cowboy Carter and the flag, it's.
Speaker 4 (28:20):
Like this is like, you know, it's been such a
topic online, like this is a reclamation of her black
textan identity.
Speaker 5 (28:27):
But also like we're situated in.
Speaker 4 (28:29):
A global context and there's more to all of us
than just like the the individual places where we're from,
you know. So yeah, I mean, I like, I like
thinking about Beyonce when she's like actively doing something for
a people than against it.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
Yeah, we were talking a bit about specific songs that
she's done covers of or tributes to, or that she's
interpolated into her work. What are some of your favorites
from that aspect of what she does.
Speaker 5 (28:54):
We were actually just talking about this.
Speaker 4 (28:56):
I love her cover of You Out to Know Violance
That is my I love it so so much. I've
always loved that song, like growing up listening to like
alt rock radio with like my dad in like the nineties.
Hearing her saying it and making it feel like it
made it feel like closer to me. I don't know,
like it's just like it made it feel like it
made me feel more connected to the song. So that's
(29:18):
like when I think about covers, that's something that I
really really love.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
It's phenomenal. Yet that's one of the ones we talked about.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
And I have one final question for you, which is
I mean, I think, especially with Act two on our minds,
I'm curious what you think Act three is gonna be.
I mean, it's obviously part of a reclamation series. You know,
there's a lot of and I know the prevalent theory
is a rock album, but I'm curious if you think
it's gonna be that or something different from her for
Act three of this three acting musical project.
Speaker 4 (29:46):
No, that's where my head is at too, especially with
the I think it was a cr fashion book photo shoot.
People thought that that was maybe like an inkling towards
what she might be doing next. Like I think when
we think about like American pop music and like black
contribution it and the way they either have been like
erased or like uplifted like rock and roll, I think
is at like the center. And so that's what I'm
(30:06):
thinking will be next. But I would love to be surprised.
I mean, and I'm also trying to think, like what
hasn't she done? You know, So that's kind of where
my head is at too.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
Yeah, maybe we'll get Alanis in Kings of Leon.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
On the album.
Speaker 3 (30:19):
That would be phenomenal.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Oh, thank you so much, Marcopher. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (30:23):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
Thanks so much for listening to Rolling Stone's five hundred
Greatest Songs. This podcast is brought to you by Rolling
Stone and iHeartMedia Britten. Hosted by Me Britney Spanos and
Rob Sheffield. Executive produced by Gus Winner, Jason Fine, Alex Dale,
and Christian Horde, and produced by Jesse Cannon with music
supervision by Eric Zeiler.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
Thanks so much for listening
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