March 20, 2024 • 27 mins
You probably don’t know his face or his voice, but you definitely know his music. In this episode of 'Rolling Stone's 500 Greatest Songs', hosts Brittany Spanos and Rob Sheffield take a deep dive into iconic songs like Britney Spears’ “…Baby One More Time” and the enigmatic writer-producer behind them: Max Martin, the Swedish genius responsible for so many hits of the past quarter-century.
Martin has always been an elusive figure, remaining behind the scenes. He refuses to become any kind of celebrity, yet he has helped create so many classics, from Taylor Swift’s “Blank Space" to the Backstreet Boys’ “I Want it That Way” (both featured on Rolling Stone’s 500 Greatest Songs list).
In this episode Brittany and Rob aim to shed light on the mysteries of Max Martin: How does he do it? What’s his secret recipe? How can one mastermind keep creating so many hits, over so many years, without losing his magic touch? How does he have so many famous songs, while remaining out of the spotlight?
This week our hosts are also joined by a Rolling Stone legend, Senior Writer Brian Hiatt. The trio go deep into how Spears made “…Baby One More Time” into a classic debut single and how Kelly Clarkson turned "Since U Been Gone" into a classic break-up anthem, all while exploring the long and unique career of pop’s ultimate mystery man.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Rolling Stone's five Hundred Greatest Songs, a podcast
based on Rolling Stones hugely popular, influential and sometimes controversialist.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I'm Britney Spanis and.
Speaker 3 (00:10):
I'm Rob Sheffield. We're here to shed light on the
greatest songs ever made and discover what makes them so great.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
We have a very important songwriter and producer you talk
about today very special episode. We'll be discussing Max Martin
and his contributions to the five hundred Greatest Songs list,
of which he has four songs on the list. There
is Backsheet Boys, I Want It That Way and Taylor
Swift's Blank Space. But today we're going to talk very
specifically about the song Baby One More Time by Britney Spears.
(00:38):
I mean there are so many artists on the list
that he has worked with in different capacities. I mean
there is very there are very few pop artists who
have not had a session in Sweden with Max Martin
and his kind of group of songwriters and producers that
he works with. Of course, he's worked with Ariana Grande
and Adele, Backstroop Boys, Robin Slain, Dion and sing Demi Lovado,
(01:01):
Selena Gomez, Perry Katie Perry think. I mean, it's like
it's a big deal if you don't If you don't
work with Max, it's almost as big of a story
to not work with him.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
It's like, what's wrong with you if you don't? You know?
Speaker 1 (01:15):
And he's had twenty five number one hits that he
has written or produced or both, and he has five Grammys.
His first Grammy ever didn't come until he worked with
Taylor Swift. But I mean that kind of figures into
a lot of what we'll probably talk about a lot
of the music that he's worked on and how we're.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Giving it to due as as the years go by.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
And one of the fun facts about Max I learned
while researching this is that he was in a hair
metal band that kicked off his career called It's Alive.
I actually had no idea that that was the background.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Of how he was originally signed.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
And then he ended up starting to work on Dennis
Pop's label, and Dennis Pop took him under his wing
because they realized he had this, you know, brilliant pop mind,
which was very smart. And then lo and behold, the
Backstreet Boys come come call, and that's when Max gets
his really big break as a pop songwriter is working
(02:06):
with the Backstreet Boys on their self toile debut. In
nineteen ninety six, he worked on Quit Playing Games with
My Heart, which hit number two on the Hot one
hundred and was a big moment for both Backstory Boys
Max Martin for pop music and kind of set the
tone for years to come to this day.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
Unbelievable and Max Martin, what was he like twenty fourth that, yes,
was barely older than the Backstreet Boys that the stereotype is,
you know, the young hungry boy band and then the
manipulatives Fengali figure. He was like just their age. It's
it's crazy how young he was when he began this
whole yeah, Swedish hair metal as disco revolution that took
(02:47):
over the.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Pop world, and the Backstor Boys had their own Spenglly
to worry about it.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Sax Martin didn't need to add to that.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
He was literally the least to their.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Problems and the placement of the songs that are on
the list. We have blank Space at three fifty seven,
which we have a whole episode we're gonna talk about
that song because of course we have to Backstreet Boys.
I want that way comes in at two forty, Britney
Spears's Baby One More Time comes in at two o five,
and Kelly Clarksonson she began clock cent at number ninety
(03:17):
three hits the top one hundred.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
I guess I'm curious since you go way way back, yeah,
with like the pop artists. Yeah, that he began with.
What was your sort of Max Martin origin story?
Speaker 1 (03:30):
It was definitely Backstreet Boys. I think, like what's great
about the that late nineties pop boom that Max was
so ingratiated and was that that was when I was
six to nine, you know, like this was the time
when I was really formulating my own personality and taste
in music.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
Amazing. Well, that the whole Carson TRL era unthinkable without
Max Martin. Yeah, who everybody got to know his name
because he was on so many hits. But it's wild
that he was such a behind the scenes personality.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
It still is.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Yeah, yeah, he really he is very press shay. He
doesn't talk about his work very much, very rarely, I
mean doesn't do interviews at all, as much as he's
such a major presence, Like that is a name brand
person of someone that like everyone knows Max Martin.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
If you love pop music.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
You know that name, and you're very familiar with it.
So he's like such a large, larger than life presence
in pop music, but he still kind of stays very
silent and stays behind the scenes and stays away from
it and really lets the artist kind of build that
narrative around the songs and around who they are and
kind of how they fit into it. And you know,
every once in a while we will get the kind of
glimpses into his creative process from the artist talking about it.
(04:42):
But for the most parts, he's just very He kind
of just stays out minds his business, and that's why
he writes great pop songs.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
He minds his business absolutely.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
He had never had any interest at all and being
a celebrity producer. He just he didn't want anybody to
know his face or his voice or his ideas. Yeah,
he was always about the artist in the cell and I.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Mean all the artists that he works with and was
such a part of their careers. And I mean both
in terms of the star making moments that he's been
a huge part of, but also for the shifts in
people's own sort of musical sounds, in their own kind
of careers. He's been such a big part of every
turning point for a lot of the biggest names in
(05:24):
pop music over the last nearly three decades that he's
been working. All these songs speak so much for themselves,
so you don't really need him to weigh in, even
though obviously we are nerdy about that and would love
to hear what would love to hear him talk about
that process and things like that. But yeah, I mean,
those songs so speak for themselves and change pop music
for I mean again, we still are hearing the reverberations
(05:47):
of what he started to do with the Backstreet Boys
and on today.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Everyone tries to get that.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
Sound absolutely and has never sounded dated. None of these
songs sound like oldies. Yeah, the Backstreet Boys songs, it's
funny that those are a little before Britney blew Up,
Britney Spears the other Brittany. But it's it's wild that
even then it was such a distinctive sound, like you
were a fan, you were right on the right in
(06:13):
on the ground floor with the Backstreet Boys.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Yeah, I mean it so just the combination of genres. Obviously,
there's so much of that euro pop eurodance sound that
was taking over the clubs in the nineties and was
such a big part of dance music and kind of
the underground music of that time. But there's so much
of that R and B sound because all of these
bands and these artists who were singing his songs were
such big fans of the R and B music of
(06:38):
the time. Backstreet Boys were imitating New Edition, and Britney
Spears is such a fan of Mariah and Janet and
every you know, just any and Whitney Houston and every
R and B singer of the of the nineties. So
you kind of hear that so much in the melodies
that he's doing, and like the actual kind of beats
are are so Euro dancing and kind of like Euro
(06:58):
trashy kind of dance music, which is great something I
love a lot. And yeah, a little bit of New
Jack Swing and some of the songs, and especially in
the ballads, and so it's kind of an interesting fusion
that he was playing with that worked really well because
it meshed so much with what these artists were wanting
to do musically anyway, like who they were as vocalists,
and let that shine on a lot of these songs.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
Yeah, and of course, baby One More Time with Britney Spears.
I think that's probably when people started to say, Okay,
there's this producer in Stockholm who's got this sound, because
the Backstreet Boys songs they were huge, but the fact
that you know, Britney Spears came out of nowhere with
(07:41):
this just absolutely massive song. I mean that the euro
pop and R and B mentioned, but also so much
metal in his production style, which is why it's so
wild what you say about his Swedish hair metal roots,
because there really is that apocalyptic bam bam bam and.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Everything he it nods to the eighties without feeling overtly
eighties in a lot of ways. All the songs are
very like bombastic and very like big, which is great
Rolling Stone.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
When we did our list of the greatest debut singles
of all time, maybe One More Time was an easy
pick for number one. It's the perfect example of a
song that comes out of nowhere and introduces not just
a new artist, but a new aesthetic and a new
approach to the sonic architecture pop music. And you definitely
remember where you were the first time you heard that song. Yeah,
(08:32):
you probably said, what the hell is this?
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Do you remember the first time you heard it?
Speaker 3 (08:36):
Yes, I do. It was December ninety eight and it
was that song and it was hearing it on MTV
and it sounded so alien, so robotic, which was a
really bizarrely distinctive thing about the Max Martin sound. And
it's where the hell is this song coming from? And
I thought, I cannot tell where this singer is from
(08:57):
on the planet, like it might be euro might be US,
but it could be anywhere. And I said, I cannot
tell if this singer is old or young. I can't
tell anything. It's just this amazing, bombastic, like you said, thunderous,
apocalyptic kind of sound. It was mind blowing to hear
(09:18):
it for the first time and realized, this is something
we never heard anything that sounded.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Like this before.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Yeah, I really love a detail that Brittany had given
around that time of wanting to imitate soft cells, tainted love, yeah,
and vocal.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
That was when I interviewed it, and I had so
many questions about that song, and she said, yeah, I
wanted to get that tainted love sound. And she said, like,
that's what I was going for, that sort of new
wave sound, And she said, I wanted my voice to
sound like that. So she said, I didn't want to
get any sleep, so I stayed up, stayed out very
(09:53):
late the night before, and she said, I kept telling myself, Brittany,
don't get any sleep, because you want that raspyat rowl
in your voice. She definitely got that.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
It works so well on it.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
It sure does. Soft Cell must have been so honored.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Thinking about how every pop star has tried to imitate
that over the years is so incredible, Like that is
a song that everyone wants a baby one more time
moment when they come out the gate, of course, and
like they want that.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
You know, it's a big pop moment. But there's no
one else who could.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
Have delivered it the way that Britney Spears had done,
because even like Max had offered it to Backstreet Boys
at first and TLC and they had been sort of
possibly going to be the one singing that song and
then both rejected it, and then it went to Britney Spears,
who loved it immediately.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
Absolutely, I firmly believe that if either of those artists
had recorded the song, Britney's version is still the one
we would know, it would have been just as big
because it was made for her, and she for it.
It's so funny to think of TLC, who were adults, yeah,
singing the song. It's like, no, this isn't a song
for adult veterans to sing. This is a song for
(10:58):
a new voice who's got something to say say musically,
sonically and in every way.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
The only regret about that is that I wish I
could hear Left Eyes maybe one more time.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
First, well, you could definitely tell that, you know that
the TLC vocal influence. Yeah, but yeah, would have been
all wrong for a singer, is you know? I mean
Tea Boss was always super smart sounding singer. She never
came on naive or confused. She was always super in control.
It's something that just defines her power as a vocalist.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
It just feels so perfectly in tune with everything that
Brittany loved and was kind of already a fan of
in music, and then also kind of helped mold this
this like important phase of her career and kind of
the way that we were introduced her in the video
of course, like that was her idea to kind of
be like, I'm a teenager, I'm singing for other teenagers.
I'm going to be in high school where she went
(11:51):
to the high school where they filmed Grease as a
big Grease fan that she was, and did that. I mean,
it just it feels like so perfectly, like such a
perfect teen idol pop moment in that way. That album
just blew up so quickly, and so it's kind of
I mean, the song itself blew up so quickly. So
it's kind of hard to even think of a time
where it wasn't everyone that I knew knew of Britney
(12:14):
Spears or had like an opinion on her or had
you know, were even just like arguing about like their
favorite Brittany songs and kind of all this, you know,
all that stuff. But yeah, it's kind of it's tough
to imagine a time before like Brittany was such a
part of my own listening habits and of my own
kind of music taste and for all, like all the
(12:34):
acts that again like Max is so integral part part
of their careers is Backshitt Boys and Sync and Brittany
and those are all artists that just immediately became in heavy.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
Rotation for absolutely.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
And next up we will be joined by Rolling Stone
senior writer Brian Hyatt. We're here with senior writer Rolling Stone,
Brian Hyatt. Thank you so much for joining.
Speaker 4 (12:58):
Us, Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
I know you're a big.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Max fan, and you're a big Sabe one more time.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Fan for sure.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
You've spoken with so many artists and especially artists that
have some relationship with Max, Right, what do you think
it is about him that that keeps beyond of course
the obvious of he has so many hits under his belt,
so twenty five number one singles, things like that, like
why do people still call Max Martin above all else
to make that special moment in their.
Speaker 4 (13:23):
Career, say that he sort of cracked the mathematical code
to writing pop songs, And then when you ask him
to explain that, they start to and nothing they ever
say really makes sense to me. It has to do
with I think some of it has to do with
the amount of repetition of bits of the melody. You know,
you repeat this bit twice, but then change it, change
(13:44):
one note the third time. There's stuff like that. There's
stuff that has to do with the syllables and thus
the rhythm of the you know, the rhythm of the melody.
He occasionally doesn't interviews but he doesn't do interviews with
people who know how this stuff works, who can be like,
you know, basically, what do you mean? It's a scientific
approach A and then belt. The other thing is that, weirdly,
like a lot of pop since like ninety eight or so,
(14:07):
it's really bringing in so many rock influences into what
we're calling pop, and he's he was a big part
of starting that as well. He was kind of a
hair metal fan. He's a Springsteen fan. You can hear
it on a Baby One More Time. You can hear
it on Oops I Did It Again, which was tragically
omitted from our list, but you know, also one of
the greatest songs of all time. It's like they can
(14:29):
so easily just take out the synth and change them
into heavy guitars and you have rocks on which of
course so many people did right. The ironic and then
suddenly not ironic cover of Baby One More Time was
such a phenomenon, as you remember, at the for indie
bands at the time.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
The bullying for super version is very good.
Speaker 4 (14:48):
There was a Travis version, there was who else?
Speaker 3 (14:49):
Who else? Thompson did a great version, a shockingly great version.
Speaker 4 (14:54):
That was when he was doing the entire history of
popular music from like fifteen hundred to that, right, Yeah,
millennium pop.
Speaker 3 (14:59):
Yeah, it ended with Baby One More Time. It like
began with like, you know, medieval ballads. And there's something
kind of beautiful about that because like these are two
allergic folk songs. They traveled, they have weird lives.
Speaker 4 (15:12):
He thus proved, like as as they say in the Matrix,
that nineteen ninety nine was the peak moment of your
human civilization. So that that's like when a thousand years
of pop music peaked with Baby One More Time? And
there really was We've had all this nice music since then,
but was there really any more need for songs after
Baby One More Time?
Speaker 2 (15:29):
I just stopped right there.
Speaker 3 (15:31):
Do you have a favorite Max Martin song?
Speaker 4 (15:33):
I mean the ones on the list? I mean I
want it that way? Is I like Baby One More Time?
The record, the recording better, but I want it that way.
It's just such an impeccable song. It might very well
be that one, And we all have a soft spot
for It's My Life by a Bun Jovie.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
Great Hamy and Gina's sequel.
Speaker 4 (15:52):
You know. One of the things that was so interesting
about that is it was Max returning just as I
was saying the fact that really he was kind of
right bon Jovi's songs, but like with the synth dress up,
you know, the boy band or teen pop dress up.
But then he just straight up went back into the
Bonjobe's song and proved that the formula was so durable.
Both that and since she'd been gone again, does the
(16:14):
same thing that is my life does? It takes the
implicit rock and makes it explicit.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (16:19):
I love the way Tyler Swift used him, which is
she kind of worked with him and learned everything he
had to teach, and then she's like thank you, and
then went on to do it without him, And then
I think that she's one of the only artists who
did it that way.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
I think that that also says a lot about her.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
You know, Yeah, what were your favorite songs? Rob of
the Maximartin Cannon.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
Well, if I had to choose, and I do at
this moment, my three would be Avril Levine's greatest song ever,
What the Hell from twenty eleven, Wow, her midlife crisis,
Live in her Life thirty something post divorce. Avril absolutely
perfect song. Every time I hear it, I think this
(16:59):
is the song that will outlive all the other ever
Lavine songs, and it's such a bop. The Max Martiness
of it is so huge, but he's as always, he's
really great at listening to these artists and what their
voices and what they're good at, and just as he did.
I think it's her version of bon Jovies, It's My Life,
and then a song that I know we all love,
(17:20):
Selena Gomez Hands to Myself. I think it proves, if
I may use this expression, that Max Martin is the
metaphorical Gin and Juice and Taylor Swift's New Romantics Yeah,
which to me is the culmination for both of their careers.
This is such a perfect peak for them to arrive at.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
I mean, even on a song like I Feel Like
break Free, I always think of as sort of like
peak kind of recent years Max Martin, where it is
sort of that good kind of weird lyricism, that very
like kind of swedishisms that are in there, where you're like,
now I've become who I really are and you're like,
this is such like a Britney Spears like ninety nine line, that's.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
Who writes songs in English for so many decades and
refuse to learn.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
But it's a great line. It works so so great.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
Like now I become who I really are, Like that's
stuck in my head.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
Constantly, Like again, we don't know who did what, but
I refuse to believe Max Martin didn't write those himself
because you look at you know, I want it that way.
And it's mind blowing that a song impeccable, like you said,
and a song that's a standard and a classic that
makes almost no sense. Almost no phrase of the song
connects with any other phrase of the song.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
I think, like I always really love how kind of
casualness is it? Like there is something that feels very
like he just like wrote down a phone conversation he
had with like an X like set five seconds before
he started writing the song.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
Absolutely, it's really amazing when you think of how many
conversations begin here's the thing and that song. Yeah, I mean,
so many genius things about that song, but that it
actually uses that to begin a conversation in a song.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Yeah, I mean that song wasn't originally supposed to go
to Clor Clarkson either, as supposed to. It was originally
pink and then Hillary Duff really were the other two
who almost got that song, I had no idea. I mean, Pink,
you know, obviously her and Max have had a very long,
ongoing collaborative relationship. They've worked on a ton of music
together to this day, so that makes sense. But of
(19:16):
course Breakaway is I would say Kelly's classic album. Of course,
this is an album that really really helps her solidify
who she is as a pop star. And I mean
Misindependent was kind of a good precursor to what she
would end up doing on like Breakaway and Misindependent from
the Thankful era kind of helped maybe push her towards
this like pop rock moment. But since You've been gone
as the as a second single from that being this
(19:39):
like big, boisterous, like kind of like pop punky, pop
rocky kind of moment from her with like these giant
guitars and like this like booming voice that she has
that works so well over it. I mean, there's no
one else that can sing that song in the same
way with maybe one more time, Like you know, even
with the potential other artists who were going to sing
that song first, it just makes so much sense with
(20:01):
who ended up with it that I feel, no, no
remorse in Losing a pink version of Since You've Been Gone.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
You know totally and such a great moment where this
sort of this whole like school of New York meet
Me in the Bathroom era, like punk rock was finding
it's it's pop outlets, and that this is so perfect
just even that they get that perfect drum sound from
fabmready of The Strokes, the sort of The Strokes hard
(20:27):
to explain drum sound, and the way it becomes the yeah,
yeah yeah song, and the turnaround when it's exactly Brian
Chase's drum sound, and that all these precise fan details
are worked so perfectly into this song. But you don't
have to know any of those references to respond to
the song. It's it's as timeless as a as a
breakup song can be. Yeah, I'm so moving.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
Off, And I mean the yaas do not like Since
You've Been Gone very much.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
Just feel somewhere in their hearts. Beyonce and hold Up
must have opened them up to the idea of like
their pop presence well and maps you know, another one
of the greatest yeah of the century. But it's wild
that so typical of Max Martin's genius to find stuff
to use everywhere in pop music.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
Yeah, And I thought it fascinating that, like in the
twenty ten version of the list, that kind of interim
revamp that happened between the twenty four list and the
twenty twenty one list, Since You've Been Gone was ended
up being added to that. And I mean, of course
that meant that within the few years I had been
At had already been seen kind of immediately as one
of the best songs that Max Martin had made thus far.
(21:35):
But I'm curious, like what you think in a future
revamp of the list will be. It still feels kind
of like a low number of his songs are represented
on the list, But yeah.
Speaker 4 (21:45):
That seems like a I mean, I think Rob has
a lot of later period candidates.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
That song that I'm sure we all love. So what
the Pink song?
Speaker 4 (21:55):
To me?
Speaker 3 (21:55):
It's funny that Pink has so many classics, but the
Pink Maxim Martin collaborations are so unique for both of them,
They really bring something out of each other. Yeah, so
Wet to me is like the pinnacle for what that
collaboration achieves in terms of attitude and sound and humor
and rage and everything.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Yeah, in terms of other Max songs that should probably
or hopefully will make the list in the future, Like,
there are very few boy band songs on the list,
and of course I want that ways on there. It's
going to be Me another song that I was I
was kind of surprised that we didn't have it so
good that and sync representation on the list at all,
but especially It's going to Be Me.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
Another Backstreet Boys song that no way reminds me of
any Britney Spears song. Is Larger than Life. Yeah, Yeah,
phenomenal song.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
Yeah, and everybody that synth on Everybody is so like
the you know, the beat on that is so good.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
I remember it was a huge moment in terms of
Max Martin becoming a recognized brand. When Britney's You Drive
Me Crazy and the backs Your Boys larger than Life
where hits it around the same time, people are like,
I'm seeing a pattern here. But Larger than Life is
such a perfect I mean, in so many ways, it's
the ultimate boy band tribute to the audience. Yeah, and
it's such a fantastic, bombastic song in every way.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Yeah, And Brian mentioned oops I did again too earlier
in that song. Again, another another Britney classic that could
very easily make a future.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
Yes of the list.
Speaker 4 (23:18):
Yes, I thought the old lady put it at the
bottom of the ocean. Speaking of which, nothing was more confusing,
I'm sure to many kids than Backstreets Back all right,
when Backstreet Boys was to Americans at that point a
new act. Obviously they've been had a certain amount of
bigness in Europe, but it was one of those things
where I think it almost had a sort of inception
effect on people would be like like like like that,
(23:41):
the sort of the Simpsons boy band, with the subliminal
messages like well they're back. I mean, I guess I
already liked them. I think that's a big secret.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
To this success so much.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
How did I miss the whole Backstreet era? A phase
of Max Martin's that that we have to give up
to because I know we all like feel deeply about this,
but Katie Perry's yeh star making collaborations with me.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
I mean again, Katie Perry not being on the list
is a travesty.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
But that's neither here nor there. I have my own we.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
Have to insert a Brittany pop ed about.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Yes, I mean, there's there was a lot of a
lot of things that went wrong, But at the end
of the day, we shouldn't be ignoring Teenage Dream or One.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
Of the Boys as classic albums.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
But I think because of what Max has been associated with,
which was so much of this pop movement at the
end of the nineties and early two thousands, pop movement
that was seen as very manufactured and these like artists
that versus been galid and these artists who like didn't
have agency and things like that or creative input. I
do think that's obviously affected the way that people remember
these songs right and remember and kind of give respect
and due to what was created during that time. And
(24:49):
I think, you know, we're seeing a little bit more
of Max Martin as a songwriter and producer kind of
get a little bit more respect as years go on.
And I mean there is music's being celebrated on Broadway,
the musical Musical and Julia, which is I don't know
if either guys have seen that wacky time. I'm wondering,
do you do you guys think that there's still even
more due for him to be paid over the years
as a songwriter producer, Like do you think that we
(25:10):
still have kind of lost a little bit of that.
People really respecting his contributions to pop music, or do
you think it's been properly bestowed upon him.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
I think as time goes by, his legend will just
rise because none of these songs. Yeah, you know, none
of them are dated, none of them are oldies. These
are all songs that none of us would be surprised
to hear on the radio today.
Speaker 4 (25:28):
Yeah, like I said, I feel like those covers, there
was a striking sort of acknowledgment from many people in
this sort of indie world, in the rock world and
the singer songwriter world, that well, these songs are really
well written. Like right away, there was sort of this,
like I said, all those covers and it was immediate,
it was and it was there were all these acoustic
covers of Baby One More Time, which didn't happen with
like any random pop song, and it didn't happen with
(25:50):
ones that it should have, Like you know, I mean,
where's the love for all those great Ashley Simpsons songs,
Like no indie band's ever covered them to this day.
So it doesn't always happen. It's some you know, there's
often that barrier. But something about this there's a level
of craft I think that you can have where it's
just it overcomes those kind of genre prejudices.
Speaker 3 (26:07):
So I feel like kind of.
Speaker 4 (26:09):
Since the beginning, at least in maybe some critics, for sure,
are a number of critics, and then definitely like musicians,
songwriters were like, whoa this guy is like and that's
sort of why even you know, people who were songwriters,
like you know, like the Great Bad Job, you know,
but like you Bunjovi, who was a songwriter. I mean,
he was like, I have to work with this guy
because I you know, he's cracked something, and you do
hear about people studying who aren't necessarily in the pop
(26:32):
work kind of studying that melodic math and trying it.
Speaker 3 (26:34):
So I think he's got that love.
Speaker 4 (26:36):
Couldn't have more love for musicians and songwriters already, And
then I think critics have mostly caught up. So I
think he's you know, he's an absolute legend already for sure.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Well, thank you so much, Brian, Yeah, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Thanks so much for listening to Rolling Stone's five hundred
Greatest Songs. This podcast is brought to you by Rolling
Stone and iHeartMedia. Written and hosted by me Britney Spanos
and Rob Sheffield. Executive produced by Jason Fine, Alex Dale
and Christian Horde, and produced by Jesse Cannon with music
by Eric Zeiler
Welcome to Rolling Stone's five Hundred Greatest Songs, a podcast
based on Rolling Stones hugely popular, influential and sometimes controversialist.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I'm Britney Spanis and.
Speaker 3 (00:10):
I'm Rob Sheffield. We're here to shed light on the
greatest songs ever made and discover what makes them so great.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
We have a very important songwriter and producer you talk
about today very special episode. We'll be discussing Max Martin
and his contributions to the five hundred Greatest Songs list,
of which he has four songs on the list. There
is Backsheet Boys, I Want It That Way and Taylor
Swift's Blank Space. But today we're going to talk very
specifically about the song Baby One More Time by Britney Spears.
(00:38):
I mean there are so many artists on the list
that he has worked with in different capacities. I mean
there is very there are very few pop artists who
have not had a session in Sweden with Max Martin
and his kind of group of songwriters and producers that
he works with. Of course, he's worked with Ariana Grande
and Adele, Backstroop Boys, Robin Slain, Dion and sing Demi Lovado,
(01:01):
Selena Gomez, Perry Katie Perry think. I mean, it's like
it's a big deal if you don't If you don't
work with Max, it's almost as big of a story
to not work with him.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
It's like, what's wrong with you if you don't? You know?
Speaker 1 (01:15):
And he's had twenty five number one hits that he
has written or produced or both, and he has five Grammys.
His first Grammy ever didn't come until he worked with
Taylor Swift. But I mean that kind of figures into
a lot of what we'll probably talk about a lot
of the music that he's worked on and how we're.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Giving it to due as as the years go by.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
And one of the fun facts about Max I learned
while researching this is that he was in a hair
metal band that kicked off his career called It's Alive.
I actually had no idea that that was the background.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Of how he was originally signed.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
And then he ended up starting to work on Dennis
Pop's label, and Dennis Pop took him under his wing
because they realized he had this, you know, brilliant pop mind,
which was very smart. And then lo and behold, the
Backstreet Boys come come call, and that's when Max gets
his really big break as a pop songwriter is working
(02:06):
with the Backstreet Boys on their self toile debut. In
nineteen ninety six, he worked on Quit Playing Games with
My Heart, which hit number two on the Hot one
hundred and was a big moment for both Backstory Boys
Max Martin for pop music and kind of set the
tone for years to come to this day.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
Unbelievable and Max Martin, what was he like twenty fourth that, yes,
was barely older than the Backstreet Boys that the stereotype is,
you know, the young hungry boy band and then the
manipulatives Fengali figure. He was like just their age. It's
it's crazy how young he was when he began this
whole yeah, Swedish hair metal as disco revolution that took
(02:47):
over the.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Pop world, and the Backstor Boys had their own Spenglly
to worry about it.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Sax Martin didn't need to add to that.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
He was literally the least to their.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Problems and the placement of the songs that are on
the list. We have blank Space at three fifty seven,
which we have a whole episode we're gonna talk about
that song because of course we have to Backstreet Boys.
I want that way comes in at two forty, Britney
Spears's Baby One More Time comes in at two o five,
and Kelly Clarksonson she began clock cent at number ninety
(03:17):
three hits the top one hundred.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
I guess I'm curious since you go way way back, yeah,
with like the pop artists. Yeah, that he began with.
What was your sort of Max Martin origin story?
Speaker 1 (03:30):
It was definitely Backstreet Boys. I think, like what's great
about the that late nineties pop boom that Max was
so ingratiated and was that that was when I was
six to nine, you know, like this was the time
when I was really formulating my own personality and taste
in music.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
Amazing. Well, that the whole Carson TRL era unthinkable without
Max Martin. Yeah, who everybody got to know his name
because he was on so many hits. But it's wild
that he was such a behind the scenes personality.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
It still is.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Yeah, yeah, he really he is very press shay. He
doesn't talk about his work very much, very rarely, I
mean doesn't do interviews at all, as much as he's
such a major presence, Like that is a name brand
person of someone that like everyone knows Max Martin.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
If you love pop music.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
You know that name, and you're very familiar with it.
So he's like such a large, larger than life presence
in pop music, but he still kind of stays very
silent and stays behind the scenes and stays away from
it and really lets the artist kind of build that
narrative around the songs and around who they are and
kind of how they fit into it. And you know,
every once in a while we will get the kind of
glimpses into his creative process from the artist talking about it.
(04:42):
But for the most parts, he's just very He kind
of just stays out minds his business, and that's why
he writes great pop songs.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
He minds his business absolutely.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
He had never had any interest at all and being
a celebrity producer. He just he didn't want anybody to
know his face or his voice or his ideas. Yeah,
he was always about the artist in the cell and I.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Mean all the artists that he works with and was
such a part of their careers. And I mean both
in terms of the star making moments that he's been
a huge part of, but also for the shifts in
people's own sort of musical sounds, in their own kind
of careers. He's been such a big part of every
turning point for a lot of the biggest names in
(05:24):
pop music over the last nearly three decades that he's
been working. All these songs speak so much for themselves,
so you don't really need him to weigh in, even
though obviously we are nerdy about that and would love
to hear what would love to hear him talk about
that process and things like that. But yeah, I mean,
those songs so speak for themselves and change pop music
for I mean again, we still are hearing the reverberations
(05:47):
of what he started to do with the Backstreet Boys
and on today.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Everyone tries to get that.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
Sound absolutely and has never sounded dated. None of these
songs sound like oldies. Yeah, the Backstreet Boys songs, it's
funny that those are a little before Britney blew Up,
Britney Spears the other Brittany. But it's it's wild that
even then it was such a distinctive sound, like you
were a fan, you were right on the right in
(06:13):
on the ground floor with the Backstreet Boys.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Yeah, I mean it so just the combination of genres. Obviously,
there's so much of that euro pop eurodance sound that
was taking over the clubs in the nineties and was
such a big part of dance music and kind of
the underground music of that time. But there's so much
of that R and B sound because all of these
bands and these artists who were singing his songs were
such big fans of the R and B music of
(06:38):
the time. Backstreet Boys were imitating New Edition, and Britney
Spears is such a fan of Mariah and Janet and
every you know, just any and Whitney Houston and every
R and B singer of the of the nineties. So
you kind of hear that so much in the melodies
that he's doing, and like the actual kind of beats
are are so Euro dancing and kind of like Euro
(06:58):
trashy kind of dance music, which is great something I
love a lot. And yeah, a little bit of New
Jack Swing and some of the songs, and especially in
the ballads, and so it's kind of an interesting fusion
that he was playing with that worked really well because
it meshed so much with what these artists were wanting
to do musically anyway, like who they were as vocalists,
and let that shine on a lot of these songs.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
Yeah, and of course, baby One More Time with Britney Spears.
I think that's probably when people started to say, Okay,
there's this producer in Stockholm who's got this sound, because
the Backstreet Boys songs they were huge, but the fact
that you know, Britney Spears came out of nowhere with
(07:41):
this just absolutely massive song. I mean that the euro
pop and R and B mentioned, but also so much
metal in his production style, which is why it's so
wild what you say about his Swedish hair metal roots,
because there really is that apocalyptic bam bam bam and.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Everything he it nods to the eighties without feeling overtly
eighties in a lot of ways. All the songs are
very like bombastic and very like big, which is great
Rolling Stone.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
When we did our list of the greatest debut singles
of all time, maybe One More Time was an easy
pick for number one. It's the perfect example of a
song that comes out of nowhere and introduces not just
a new artist, but a new aesthetic and a new
approach to the sonic architecture pop music. And you definitely
remember where you were the first time you heard that song. Yeah,
(08:32):
you probably said, what the hell is this?
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Do you remember the first time you heard it?
Speaker 3 (08:36):
Yes, I do. It was December ninety eight and it
was that song and it was hearing it on MTV
and it sounded so alien, so robotic, which was a
really bizarrely distinctive thing about the Max Martin sound. And
it's where the hell is this song coming from? And
I thought, I cannot tell where this singer is from
(08:57):
on the planet, like it might be euro might be US,
but it could be anywhere. And I said, I cannot
tell if this singer is old or young. I can't
tell anything. It's just this amazing, bombastic, like you said, thunderous,
apocalyptic kind of sound. It was mind blowing to hear
(09:18):
it for the first time and realized, this is something
we never heard anything that sounded.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Like this before.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Yeah, I really love a detail that Brittany had given
around that time of wanting to imitate soft cells, tainted love, yeah,
and vocal.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
That was when I interviewed it, and I had so
many questions about that song, and she said, yeah, I
wanted to get that tainted love sound. And she said, like,
that's what I was going for, that sort of new
wave sound, And she said, I wanted my voice to
sound like that. So she said, I didn't want to
get any sleep, so I stayed up, stayed out very
(09:53):
late the night before, and she said, I kept telling myself, Brittany,
don't get any sleep, because you want that raspyat rowl
in your voice. She definitely got that.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
It works so well on it.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
It sure does. Soft Cell must have been so honored.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Thinking about how every pop star has tried to imitate
that over the years is so incredible, Like that is
a song that everyone wants a baby one more time
moment when they come out the gate, of course, and
like they want that.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
You know, it's a big pop moment. But there's no
one else who could.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
Have delivered it the way that Britney Spears had done,
because even like Max had offered it to Backstreet Boys
at first and TLC and they had been sort of
possibly going to be the one singing that song and
then both rejected it, and then it went to Britney Spears,
who loved it immediately.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
Absolutely, I firmly believe that if either of those artists
had recorded the song, Britney's version is still the one
we would know, it would have been just as big
because it was made for her, and she for it.
It's so funny to think of TLC, who were adults, yeah,
singing the song. It's like, no, this isn't a song
for adult veterans to sing. This is a song for
(10:58):
a new voice who's got something to say say musically,
sonically and in every way.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
The only regret about that is that I wish I
could hear Left Eyes maybe one more time.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
First, well, you could definitely tell that, you know that
the TLC vocal influence. Yeah, but yeah, would have been
all wrong for a singer, is you know? I mean
Tea Boss was always super smart sounding singer. She never
came on naive or confused. She was always super in control.
It's something that just defines her power as a vocalist.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
It just feels so perfectly in tune with everything that
Brittany loved and was kind of already a fan of
in music, and then also kind of helped mold this
this like important phase of her career and kind of
the way that we were introduced her in the video
of course, like that was her idea to kind of
be like, I'm a teenager, I'm singing for other teenagers.
I'm going to be in high school where she went
(11:51):
to the high school where they filmed Grease as a
big Grease fan that she was, and did that. I mean,
it just it feels like so perfectly, like such a
perfect teen idol pop moment in that way. That album
just blew up so quickly, and so it's kind of
I mean, the song itself blew up so quickly. So
it's kind of hard to even think of a time
where it wasn't everyone that I knew knew of Britney
(12:14):
Spears or had like an opinion on her or had
you know, were even just like arguing about like their
favorite Brittany songs and kind of all this, you know,
all that stuff. But yeah, it's kind of it's tough
to imagine a time before like Brittany was such a
part of my own listening habits and of my own
kind of music taste and for all, like all the
(12:34):
acts that again like Max is so integral part part
of their careers is Backshitt Boys and Sync and Brittany
and those are all artists that just immediately became in heavy.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
Rotation for absolutely.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
And next up we will be joined by Rolling Stone
senior writer Brian Hyatt. We're here with senior writer Rolling Stone,
Brian Hyatt. Thank you so much for joining.
Speaker 4 (12:58):
Us, Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
I know you're a big.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Max fan, and you're a big Sabe one more time.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Fan for sure.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
You've spoken with so many artists and especially artists that
have some relationship with Max, Right, what do you think
it is about him that that keeps beyond of course
the obvious of he has so many hits under his belt,
so twenty five number one singles, things like that, like
why do people still call Max Martin above all else
to make that special moment in their.
Speaker 4 (13:23):
Career, say that he sort of cracked the mathematical code
to writing pop songs, And then when you ask him
to explain that, they start to and nothing they ever
say really makes sense to me. It has to do
with I think some of it has to do with
the amount of repetition of bits of the melody. You know,
you repeat this bit twice, but then change it, change
(13:44):
one note the third time. There's stuff like that. There's
stuff that has to do with the syllables and thus
the rhythm of the you know, the rhythm of the melody.
He occasionally doesn't interviews but he doesn't do interviews with
people who know how this stuff works, who can be like,
you know, basically, what do you mean? It's a scientific
approach A and then belt. The other thing is that, weirdly,
like a lot of pop since like ninety eight or so,
(14:07):
it's really bringing in so many rock influences into what
we're calling pop, and he's he was a big part
of starting that as well. He was kind of a
hair metal fan. He's a Springsteen fan. You can hear
it on a Baby One More Time. You can hear
it on Oops I Did It Again, which was tragically
omitted from our list, but you know, also one of
the greatest songs of all time. It's like they can
(14:29):
so easily just take out the synth and change them
into heavy guitars and you have rocks on which of
course so many people did right. The ironic and then
suddenly not ironic cover of Baby One More Time was
such a phenomenon, as you remember, at the for indie
bands at the time.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
The bullying for super version is very good.
Speaker 4 (14:48):
There was a Travis version, there was who else?
Speaker 3 (14:49):
Who else? Thompson did a great version, a shockingly great version.
Speaker 4 (14:54):
That was when he was doing the entire history of
popular music from like fifteen hundred to that, right, Yeah,
millennium pop.
Speaker 3 (14:59):
Yeah, it ended with Baby One More Time. It like
began with like, you know, medieval ballads. And there's something
kind of beautiful about that because like these are two
allergic folk songs. They traveled, they have weird lives.
Speaker 4 (15:12):
He thus proved, like as as they say in the Matrix,
that nineteen ninety nine was the peak moment of your
human civilization. So that that's like when a thousand years
of pop music peaked with Baby One More Time? And
there really was We've had all this nice music since then,
but was there really any more need for songs after
Baby One More Time?
Speaker 2 (15:29):
I just stopped right there.
Speaker 3 (15:31):
Do you have a favorite Max Martin song?
Speaker 4 (15:33):
I mean the ones on the list? I mean I
want it that way? Is I like Baby One More Time?
The record, the recording better, but I want it that way.
It's just such an impeccable song. It might very well
be that one, And we all have a soft spot
for It's My Life by a Bun Jovie.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
Great Hamy and Gina's sequel.
Speaker 4 (15:52):
You know. One of the things that was so interesting
about that is it was Max returning just as I
was saying the fact that really he was kind of
right bon Jovi's songs, but like with the synth dress up,
you know, the boy band or teen pop dress up.
But then he just straight up went back into the
Bonjobe's song and proved that the formula was so durable.
Both that and since she'd been gone again, does the
(16:14):
same thing that is my life does? It takes the
implicit rock and makes it explicit.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (16:19):
I love the way Tyler Swift used him, which is
she kind of worked with him and learned everything he
had to teach, and then she's like thank you, and
then went on to do it without him, And then
I think that she's one of the only artists who
did it that way.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
I think that that also says a lot about her.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
You know, Yeah, what were your favorite songs? Rob of
the Maximartin Cannon.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
Well, if I had to choose, and I do at
this moment, my three would be Avril Levine's greatest song ever,
What the Hell from twenty eleven, Wow, her midlife crisis,
Live in her Life thirty something post divorce. Avril absolutely
perfect song. Every time I hear it, I think this
(16:59):
is the song that will outlive all the other ever
Lavine songs, and it's such a bop. The Max Martiness
of it is so huge, but he's as always, he's
really great at listening to these artists and what their
voices and what they're good at, and just as he did.
I think it's her version of bon Jovies, It's My Life,
and then a song that I know we all love,
(17:20):
Selena Gomez Hands to Myself. I think it proves, if
I may use this expression, that Max Martin is the
metaphorical Gin and Juice and Taylor Swift's New Romantics Yeah,
which to me is the culmination for both of their careers.
This is such a perfect peak for them to arrive at.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
I mean, even on a song like I Feel Like
break Free, I always think of as sort of like
peak kind of recent years Max Martin, where it is
sort of that good kind of weird lyricism, that very
like kind of swedishisms that are in there, where you're like,
now I've become who I really are and you're like,
this is such like a Britney Spears like ninety nine line, that's.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
Who writes songs in English for so many decades and
refuse to learn.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
But it's a great line. It works so so great.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
Like now I become who I really are, Like that's
stuck in my head.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
Constantly, Like again, we don't know who did what, but
I refuse to believe Max Martin didn't write those himself
because you look at you know, I want it that way.
And it's mind blowing that a song impeccable, like you said,
and a song that's a standard and a classic that
makes almost no sense. Almost no phrase of the song
connects with any other phrase of the song.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
I think, like I always really love how kind of
casualness is it? Like there is something that feels very
like he just like wrote down a phone conversation he
had with like an X like set five seconds before
he started writing the song.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
Absolutely, it's really amazing when you think of how many
conversations begin here's the thing and that song. Yeah, I mean,
so many genius things about that song, but that it
actually uses that to begin a conversation in a song.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Yeah, I mean that song wasn't originally supposed to go
to Clor Clarkson either, as supposed to. It was originally
pink and then Hillary Duff really were the other two
who almost got that song, I had no idea. I mean, Pink,
you know, obviously her and Max have had a very long,
ongoing collaborative relationship. They've worked on a ton of music
together to this day, so that makes sense. But of
(19:16):
course Breakaway is I would say Kelly's classic album. Of course,
this is an album that really really helps her solidify
who she is as a pop star. And I mean
Misindependent was kind of a good precursor to what she
would end up doing on like Breakaway and Misindependent from
the Thankful era kind of helped maybe push her towards
this like pop rock moment. But since You've been gone
as the as a second single from that being this
(19:39):
like big, boisterous, like kind of like pop punky, pop
rocky kind of moment from her with like these giant
guitars and like this like booming voice that she has
that works so well over it. I mean, there's no
one else that can sing that song in the same
way with maybe one more time, Like you know, even
with the potential other artists who were going to sing
that song first, it just makes so much sense with
(20:01):
who ended up with it that I feel, no, no
remorse in Losing a pink version of Since You've Been Gone.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
You know totally and such a great moment where this
sort of this whole like school of New York meet
Me in the Bathroom era, like punk rock was finding
it's it's pop outlets, and that this is so perfect
just even that they get that perfect drum sound from
fabmready of The Strokes, the sort of The Strokes hard
(20:27):
to explain drum sound, and the way it becomes the yeah,
yeah yeah song, and the turnaround when it's exactly Brian
Chase's drum sound, and that all these precise fan details
are worked so perfectly into this song. But you don't
have to know any of those references to respond to
the song. It's it's as timeless as a as a
breakup song can be. Yeah, I'm so moving.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
Off, And I mean the yaas do not like Since
You've Been Gone very much.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
Just feel somewhere in their hearts. Beyonce and hold Up
must have opened them up to the idea of like
their pop presence well and maps you know, another one
of the greatest yeah of the century. But it's wild
that so typical of Max Martin's genius to find stuff
to use everywhere in pop music.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
Yeah, And I thought it fascinating that, like in the
twenty ten version of the list, that kind of interim
revamp that happened between the twenty four list and the
twenty twenty one list, Since You've Been Gone was ended
up being added to that. And I mean, of course
that meant that within the few years I had been
At had already been seen kind of immediately as one
of the best songs that Max Martin had made thus far.
(21:35):
But I'm curious, like what you think in a future
revamp of the list will be. It still feels kind
of like a low number of his songs are represented
on the list, But yeah.
Speaker 4 (21:45):
That seems like a I mean, I think Rob has
a lot of later period candidates.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
That song that I'm sure we all love. So what
the Pink song?
Speaker 4 (21:55):
To me?
Speaker 3 (21:55):
It's funny that Pink has so many classics, but the
Pink Maxim Martin collaborations are so unique for both of them,
They really bring something out of each other. Yeah, so
Wet to me is like the pinnacle for what that
collaboration achieves in terms of attitude and sound and humor
and rage and everything.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Yeah, in terms of other Max songs that should probably
or hopefully will make the list in the future, Like,
there are very few boy band songs on the list,
and of course I want that ways on there. It's
going to be Me another song that I was I
was kind of surprised that we didn't have it so
good that and sync representation on the list at all,
but especially It's going to Be Me.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
Another Backstreet Boys song that no way reminds me of
any Britney Spears song. Is Larger than Life. Yeah, Yeah,
phenomenal song.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
Yeah, and everybody that synth on Everybody is so like
the you know, the beat on that is so good.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
I remember it was a huge moment in terms of
Max Martin becoming a recognized brand. When Britney's You Drive
Me Crazy and the backs Your Boys larger than Life
where hits it around the same time, people are like,
I'm seeing a pattern here. But Larger than Life is
such a perfect I mean, in so many ways, it's
the ultimate boy band tribute to the audience. Yeah, and
it's such a fantastic, bombastic song in every way.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Yeah, And Brian mentioned oops I did again too earlier
in that song. Again, another another Britney classic that could
very easily make a future.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
Yes of the list.
Speaker 4 (23:18):
Yes, I thought the old lady put it at the
bottom of the ocean. Speaking of which, nothing was more confusing,
I'm sure to many kids than Backstreets Back all right,
when Backstreet Boys was to Americans at that point a
new act. Obviously they've been had a certain amount of
bigness in Europe, but it was one of those things
where I think it almost had a sort of inception
effect on people would be like like like like that,
(23:41):
the sort of the Simpsons boy band, with the subliminal
messages like well they're back. I mean, I guess I
already liked them. I think that's a big secret.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
To this success so much.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
How did I miss the whole Backstreet era? A phase
of Max Martin's that that we have to give up
to because I know we all like feel deeply about this,
but Katie Perry's yeh star making collaborations with me.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
I mean again, Katie Perry not being on the list
is a travesty.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
But that's neither here nor there. I have my own we.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
Have to insert a Brittany pop ed about.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Yes, I mean, there's there was a lot of a
lot of things that went wrong, But at the end
of the day, we shouldn't be ignoring Teenage Dream or One.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
Of the Boys as classic albums.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
But I think because of what Max has been associated with,
which was so much of this pop movement at the
end of the nineties and early two thousands, pop movement
that was seen as very manufactured and these like artists
that versus been galid and these artists who like didn't
have agency and things like that or creative input. I
do think that's obviously affected the way that people remember
these songs right and remember and kind of give respect
and due to what was created during that time. And
(24:49):
I think, you know, we're seeing a little bit more
of Max Martin as a songwriter and producer kind of
get a little bit more respect as years go on.
And I mean there is music's being celebrated on Broadway,
the musical Musical and Julia, which is I don't know
if either guys have seen that wacky time. I'm wondering,
do you do you guys think that there's still even
more due for him to be paid over the years
as a songwriter producer, Like do you think that we
(25:10):
still have kind of lost a little bit of that.
People really respecting his contributions to pop music, or do
you think it's been properly bestowed upon him.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
I think as time goes by, his legend will just
rise because none of these songs. Yeah, you know, none
of them are dated, none of them are oldies. These
are all songs that none of us would be surprised
to hear on the radio today.
Speaker 4 (25:28):
Yeah, like I said, I feel like those covers, there
was a striking sort of acknowledgment from many people in
this sort of indie world, in the rock world and
the singer songwriter world, that well, these songs are really
well written. Like right away, there was sort of this,
like I said, all those covers and it was immediate,
it was and it was there were all these acoustic
covers of Baby One More Time, which didn't happen with
like any random pop song, and it didn't happen with
(25:50):
ones that it should have, Like you know, I mean,
where's the love for all those great Ashley Simpsons songs,
Like no indie band's ever covered them to this day.
So it doesn't always happen. It's some you know, there's
often that barrier. But something about this there's a level
of craft I think that you can have where it's
just it overcomes those kind of genre prejudices.
Speaker 3 (26:07):
So I feel like kind of.
Speaker 4 (26:09):
Since the beginning, at least in maybe some critics, for sure,
are a number of critics, and then definitely like musicians,
songwriters were like, whoa this guy is like and that's
sort of why even you know, people who were songwriters,
like you know, like the Great Bad Job, you know,
but like you Bunjovi, who was a songwriter. I mean,
he was like, I have to work with this guy
because I you know, he's cracked something, and you do
hear about people studying who aren't necessarily in the pop
(26:32):
work kind of studying that melodic math and trying it.
Speaker 3 (26:34):
So I think he's got that love.
Speaker 4 (26:36):
Couldn't have more love for musicians and songwriters already, And
then I think critics have mostly caught up. So I
think he's you know, he's an absolute legend already for sure.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Well, thank you so much, Brian, Yeah, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Thanks so much for listening to Rolling Stone's five hundred
Greatest Songs. This podcast is brought to you by Rolling
Stone and iHeartMedia. Written and hosted by me Britney Spanos
and Rob Sheffield. Executive produced by Jason Fine, Alex Dale
and Christian Horde, and produced by Jesse Cannon with music
by Eric Zeiler
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
The Nikki Glaser Podcast
Every week comedian and infamous roaster Nikki Glaser provides a fun, fast-paced, and brutally honest look into current pop-culture and her own personal life.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.