July 24, 2024 • 32 mins
BTS were already massive in their native South Korea in 2017 when they scored one of their defining hits, the emotional ballad “Spring Day.” It was a poignant tale of grief and loss. Three years later, “Dynamite” showed a totally different extreme of their music, going for dance-floor kicks. The Chic-style disco rush of “Dynamite” was a blast of sunshine, during the bleak days of the pandemic in the summer of 2020. But different as they are, both songs show how BTS became international superstars, breaking beyond the world of K-pop and conquering the planet.
On this week’s episode, hosts Rob Sheffield and Brittany Spanos discuss “Dynamite” and “Spring Day,” and how they display different sides of BTS’ music. They’re joined by journalist Michelle Hyun Kim to break down the BTS phenomenon: how it began, how it grew, how it spread worldwide, and how these songs play different—but complementary—roles in the group’s story.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to five hundred Greatest Songs, a podcast based on
Rolling Stones hugely popular, influential and sometimes controversialist. I'm Britney
Spanos and.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I'm Rob Sheffield and we're here to shed light on
the greatest songs ever made and discover what makes them
so great. And this week's song Dynamite by BTS.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
This is one of two songs by BTS that are
on the Greatest Songs of All Time lists. They made
their debut, of course in twenty twenty one, ranking at
number three forty seven with Dynamite, and then spring Day
landed at number.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
Two hundred and eighty.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
And I mean BTS was already massive phenomenons at that point,
but Dynamite kind of tipped over the edge of BTS
mania that would happen globally. I mean, this was their
first number one song on the Billboard Hot one hundred.
This was their first fully English language song, and this
was the first time in all South Korean group hit
(00:53):
number one on the Hot one hundred.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
They also broke barriers with the Grammys as well.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
They got their first Grammy nomination and we're also the
first South Korean artists to be nominated for a Grammy Award.
I mean, it was just kind of a boundary breaking,
massive moment for this band.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Yeah, Like spring Day and Dynamite kind of a beautiful
pair on the list just because they're sort of opposite
extremes of the BTS story. Spring Day is them like
as the South Korean band. It's a song that was
for the hardcore fans, a very emotional, very inspiring song,
a very message oriented song. And Dynamite is after they've
(01:30):
become global phenomenon by being exactly themselves, not compromising anything
like that. They got so huge in the US, which
is so historically resistant to any music not in English,
and they just did not cross over to North America.
They made North America cross over to them and Dynamite.
For them to finally do an English language song after
(01:53):
they were so massive here on their own terms was
just kind of beautiful. They didn't do it because they
had to or because it would get them anything that
they didn't already have, Like they just they felt like
doing this.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Yeah, and the song in particular too, the timing of
it was so much. They released this in August twenty twenty,
and this is this song is like, I mean, it's
just like Sunshine bottled up into a song. It's like
a really great kind of like seventies funk, like very
like Bruno Mars Uptown funky esque type of song.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
It's like really bright and happy.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
And of course this was August twenty twenty, not a
particularly bright or happy time for anyone around the globe.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
And I mean it's very purposeful.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
They wanted to release a song that was, you know,
meant to put a smile on people's faces, bring a
little bit of joy and lightness, you know. Bts as
songwriters that are coming from a place of talking about
being a young person in South Korea who's dealing with
kind of the pressures of a perfection, or about mental health,
or about grief. Spring Day a perfect example of that.
(02:51):
And this was a song that they very intentionally wanted
to put out into the world that was kind of
countering the amount of grief that people were facing. And
it's just kind of a beautiful sentiment and obviously the
song did just that for a lot of people.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Yeah, it really struck a nerve. It would have been
so different if they did the song a couple of
years earlier, you know, when they were still on the
rise in this part of the world where it would
have seemed or in some way it might have been
a sort of compromise to try to broaden their audience.
But they did dynamite when they were already as big
as any group could possibly be. Yeah, it was almost
(03:26):
a victory lap for them. And like you said that,
it was at a very bleak global time and very
similar message, very similar emotional impact as Spring Day, but
on a just broader global scale.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Yeah, And I mean, like many boy bands before them,
you know, you don't really need a number one to
tell you that this band is like the biggest in
the world, right, Like this is kind of like the
stats quote for a lot of like really big kind
of global success type of stadium filling boy bands. I mean,
like One Direction is a great example of that, where
it's like number one hits don't necessarily measure the global
impact of a group like this. But BTS already broken
(04:00):
the dam for K pop globally as a crossover artist,
you know, well before the song blew up, And you know,
it's just kind of a sort of solidified that in
a lot of ways, it's sort of just kind of
further solidified that legacy of what they had done for
K pop as a genre, for idol groups overall. For
that kind of like legacy of that in this particular
moment where they can be a crossover success in any capacity.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Yeah, really, while also that it came so soon after
I mean the whole map of the Soul franchise and
just how complex that is. What I think made them
like so forbidding and intimidating to people, Like when they
first started to crossover in this part of the world
was just that they were not what people figured when
people heard the words k pop or boy band, they
(04:45):
had an image of one thing, and like bts were
just so complex in terms of the mythology and in
terms of you know, it's like, yeah, they do concept
albums about Nietzsche and Kyl Jung and like this, this
is what they do. Like nothing they do is watered down.
So for them to do Dynamite a very simple, accessible
across the board, anybody hearing this could like it at
(05:06):
first listen, just a real statement in itself.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Yeah, I mean with Dynamite, I mean, with this kind
of like further breakthrough post map of the Soul everything
that was going on, I mean of course, like Map
of the Soul was already massive in its own right.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
They were a decade in.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
At this point since they had first formed, and you know,
seven years since they made their debut. But I love
kind of like the origin of RM being this like
underground wrapper and like this Big Hit Wine to create
a hip hop group around him. So Sugar and Jay
Hope were the first ones recruited and eventually kind of
decided to pivot to an idol group. And we're having
(05:41):
like struggling getting people to audition to be part of
an idol group. I mean, now Big Hit Entertainment is
like one of the biggest names in kpop globally, I
mean just in pop music globally, and we're kind of,
you know, a very lesser known label at that point.
But Yeah, eventually formed a group in twenty ten, spent
three years training. They were like living together. They were
spending like fifteen hours a day training and practicing to
(06:04):
become this like powerhouse group. I mean you can tell
and like every single one of the performances, like they
are just like incredibly talented, each of them, And you know,
in twenty thirteen, made their debut and started releasing music
under big hit and obviously I've become one of the
one of the biggest bands in history.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Yeah, and did it by playing up their weirdness. I mean,
it is funny, especially when they started to like make
inroads here where you know, there's real resistance to boy bands.
People like never really appreciate them. The whole tradition legacy
is that they have this pop audience that they start
with and other audiences really threatened by that. I know
(06:47):
the memory is similar for you. But when one of
the first times that they were on one of the
American late night chat shows and there was this funny
idea of like, how we'll dress them up is the Beatles.
Oh playing at Sullivan doesn't hold up great with time.
Yeah now, but even at that time seemed like really
like uncomprehending of how original they were and the idea
(07:07):
the only way Americans could appreciate this was by channeling
it through something that they already knew that was from
England and got it completely backwards, because BTS became stadium
band here just by being themselves and honestly, they didn't
have any songs that sounded like the Beatles, and they
just they weren't like the Beatles. They were their own
(07:30):
kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Yeah, I mean, it was one of those things, especially
with K pop iidle groups. I mean, they've existed for
a very long time, and these groups have always been
very very successful and massive in a lot of ways
in a lot of markets. Obviously, there was very little
breakthrough in the American market until BTS. I mean other
than cy blowing up and becoming kind of like this
(07:51):
viral like mean sort of sort of artist and song
with Gongenham style. But I mean BTS was that kind
of like really important art group. But that like really
helped kind of show for a lot of like American
industry experts and people who are like paying attention to
really great pop music that this was like a massive
global success and something worth paying attention to and bigger
(08:14):
than are previously seeing kind of quantifiable ways of measuring success.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
That's such a brilliant way to put it. They were
just outside any model that people could use in any
I mean, certainly like going back in time to when
they were first making records, it would have been easy
for any American expert in the music busins to say
what they should do. If you want to be popular here,
It's like, Okay, first you have to do some songs
in English. You have to do duets with very famous
(08:41):
American stars who have fallen on hard times, which is
why they're doing this kind of duet. You need to
pick some members of the group and make them the
front people. You need to really limit what they do,
so it's very understandable and accessible. And it's almost like
they anticipated that advice and did the exact opposite of
all that stuff, and that their story couldn't have happened
(09:02):
if they'd tried to compromise in any way.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Yeah, And I mean it's such a great story of
kind of the power of fandom. I mean, this is
just like a band that is very close with their
with the BTS Army, with their fans, like has kind of,
you know, just organically built this like really worldwide network
of people who love them and kind of appreciate the
(09:25):
fact that they exist in this way where they have
their their personalities, they each have like their strengths, and
you know, I mean we're seeing this now with their
solo releases that they're they're rolling out. I mean, there's
so much talent kind of locked into this group, Like
people just could not like had not seen something like
that before.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Yeah, it was funny that in terms of them, in
terms of like Dynamite being them's, it couldn't have been
Dynamite if they'd done it as a step up into
the English language or American market. It was really something
that only became the triumph it became because they did
it after they didn't need that kind of that move anymore.
Like they're duet with Megan. They didn't do that to
(10:04):
get more popular. Yeah, Like they did that because they
were so popular. Yeah, because they had such a fascinating
combination with Megan. Yeah, that record is just so unique
for both of them, Like they did not need to
meet each other in the middle, and they didn't.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Yeah, and even with Dynamite, I mean, this is like
one of the first songs that none of them had
a hand in writing too. Like they like them, they've
been writing their own music since they were you know,
kids like that, they've been doing this the entire time.
Is like also especially given how part of the success
of BTS is kind of they were writing from this
place of this like very real you know. They have
like the school series where they're talking about their experiences
(10:41):
as teens and they're they're translating that to their music
and kind of what they were going through, and that's
always been such an important part of their success and
of their music. And I think we talk about that
all the time with so many artists who.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
Start really young.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Is like, what draws in those fans and what draws
and people caring about them is them just kind of
relaying that experience of being young and what it's like
to a new generation of people who are young and
trying to make sense of the world. And that's exactly
what BTS was doing for their fans from the you know,
from the time they broke and from the time they debuted.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Yeah, you made such a crucial point about them in
terms of their evolution that this happens after the Internet
has created a new kind of fan community, fan culture
that exists independent of the conventional music industry, so that
they could really do an end run around the conventional
industry just because it was so suddenly so accessible for
(11:36):
people around the world from all different cultures, all different generations,
all different languages, all different styles of music, so accessible
for people to find that music and make their own
connection to it.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Yeah, and I think like it's always you know, interesting
talking with people about kind of like what those origins
of really like massive sort of fan networks online where
and I think everyone sort of has different answers, right,
because I mean like there's like, you know, people think
about Low Monsters and like how they function online, but
like you know, in comparison to like One Direction, right,
Like you know, the Low Monsters were less involved with
(12:08):
like the success of Lady Gaga as like you know,
directioners were involved with the success of One Direction. But
you know, like I mentioned earlier, like it's so much
like K pop fandom existing online because this was like
that kind of global connection.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
Is that feels so much to me like the.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Defining aspect of of how internet fandoms formed and how
they work on you know, from different chat rooms and
you know kind of the kind of nascent version of
ways people talk to each other online to like Humblr
and MySpace and Twitter now and then.
Speaker 3 (12:39):
TikTok and all of that.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
That feels like that origin and sort of that kind
of natural progression of making an act like BTS become
as big as.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
They have become, absolutely and boy, like what you said
about the army, like being part of the group is
so true. And that's such a long tradition for boy bands,
and yet they always have this song that's about you know,
the fans. They always have the tribute. They always know
that the audience is there. They've all got the classic
song that's you know, they're larger than life, They're you know,
(13:10):
like thank you girls. There's song that's directly to the audience,
and that BTS just made such a tradition of that
in itself. So many great love songs that come on
and you go through them as conventional love songs, but
they're heard and meant to be heard as you know,
songs between the boys and their audience.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Yeah, And I'm curious, like, do you think that Dynamite
will be that like I want it that way for BTS,
Like or do you see another song or maybe we
haven't heard that song yet, but do you think that
this will become that song for them? Or do you
have another one that you feel stands out in that way?
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Wow, it's interesting. Would you say, we don't know if
Dynamite is going to go down in history as the one.
It's funny like Dynamite is one that just it stands
out as a highlight, but I don't know if it'll
go down in history as you know, the highlight of
this phase at least.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
Yeah, And I mean just even like the timing, you know,
of course, in twenty twenty two, you know, all the
members ended up having to put this on pause so
that they can do their eighteen months of mandatory military
service in South Korea. They're all kind of doing it
at different times and obviously depending on age and kind
of going in order of that. So they've been slowly
rolling out solo albums, which have also done extremely well
(14:24):
and been really like massive successes for them. Though I
am curious kind of what happens in twenty twenty five,
which is when they said they would end up returning
to the group and releasing more music, and what that
will look like. I trust them more than other boy
bands that have said that they're on hiatus, So I'm
gonna I'm gonna believe that they're they will come back together,
because it did feel like it was just a kind
(14:46):
of a new a new beginning for them as a group.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Yeah, And this is always a hiatus to head a
particular purpose. Yeah, and they knew this was coming. This
is part of like a long term planning for them.
It didn't come by surprise.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
Yeah, Obviously, strategy can't tell you like how big a
band will get, like, no matter how well you're strategizing.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
But they knew it was coming.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
It just so happened that they were one of the
best selling acts of the world. Yes, as the time
that happened.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Yeah, for something like Dynamite, and when it came at
a time when they didn't have to work through conventional
North American media. I think a lot of us associate
Dynamite with when they were on the Grammys doing Dynamite,
and it was a first for them to be doing
one of their songs on the Grammys. They were on,
you know, the year before doing soul Town Road, which
(15:31):
was a phenomenal ten second moment in the Grammys.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
Bedne I'm almost completely forgot about. That was such a
good moment.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
It was such a great moment.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
And next up, we will be joined by Michelle Kim,
who is a freelance editor and writer whose work has
appeared in Rolling Stone, Pitchfork, Teen, Vogue, The Guardian, and
much more. We are joined now by Michelle Kim, who
is an amazing freelance writer and editor who's written for
Rolling Stone and numerous other outlets. And thank you so
much for joining us today.
Speaker 4 (15:59):
Thanks you having me.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
Yeah, I'm very excited.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
So I mean, tell us a little bit about the
origins of both your BTS fandom and also covering them.
Speaker 4 (16:08):
Yes, so, honestly, I have sort of a maybe complicated
relationship with K pop, or I did have growing up
because I was super into it in middle school.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
Was super into Big Bang.
Speaker 4 (16:20):
That was like my original group, if you will. But
then as I kind of got older, I didn't really
know if I wanted to keep on listening to the
Korean music because I didn't know if I wanted to
fit in more within like my American school, and whenever
I listened to Korean music, I felt kind of alienated
from it. So I knew of BTS and I kept
(16:40):
up with their singles. I had friends who liked them,
so I knew them as they were kind of rising
from I would say, like twenty seventeen when DNA got
really big, and then in the pandemic, everything sort of
blew up with Dynamite, and that was also a time
when we were all isolated. I was kind of looking
inwards myself and trying to figure out, like what's going on.
(17:03):
And I think BTS was actually like a really important
part of me, like taking Korean classes for the first time,
like connecting back to my heritage, and just because there
was so much content, I kind of just like fell
into this k pop hole.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
And I mean from your perspective too of being a
young fan of you know, a lot of idol groups
and artists, like what was sort of that development of
the popularity of Korean music in the US or kind
of especially leading up to BTS breaking through and kind
of building sort of even more success in the US
and allowing you know, I guess, like more recognition for
a lot of other artists from South Korea. But I'm curious,
(17:42):
like what your perspective is of especially the online fandom
portion of Yes.
Speaker 4 (17:46):
Yeah, So I would say growing up it was pretty
niche to like K pop, And I would say that
there was some sort of like enclaves of communities, probably
more on the West Coast in California that like, we're
super into it as a niche thing that they liked.
But I grew up on the East Coast, so like
fandom was pretty fragmented for me, and there's just some
(18:06):
songs that like me and my brother listened to only
from what it felt like for me. But during the pandemic,
like I said, since everyone was inside looking for an
escape from their dreary, like just waking up in your
own house every day. I think that because K pop
produces so much content around the music itself, whether that's
(18:26):
music videos, behind the scenes footage and them goofing around,
and also just a lot of idol groups making what
they call variety content, which is just them like playing
games with each other like you would see on a
variety show. And I think BTS actually kind of kicked
off this huge trend of idols doing that sort of
content because they started their run BTS series I think
(18:50):
in twenty fifteen, where they just would hang out play games.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
It was super funny.
Speaker 4 (18:54):
You got to see the members' personalities outside of their
very serious stage persona, and I think at that time
and during the pandemic, a lot of people started watching
that show, watching their YouTube video. They have behind the
scenes content called punk t on Bombs, which are just
them being backstage goofing around. And I think just the
(19:16):
fact that people could watch so much minutia of someone
else's daily life that wasn't their own, Like the fandom
really blew up.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Yeah, And I mean what is it about them in particular?
Speaker 3 (19:32):
I mean it is I mean the personality is obviously
such a big part of it.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
They all are just like so charismatic and so just
like kind of energy personified and like both their performances
and also what we see off stage. But I mean
obviously the music is I mean just the way it's
developed over the last I guess, like decade of them
being a public band, Like, what is it about that
chemistry that they have as a group that made them
(19:58):
break through in the way that they have even before
Dynamite being their first fully English language single, I mean,
what was it about them?
Speaker 3 (20:05):
In particular?
Speaker 4 (20:06):
The origin of BTS was a pretty unusual one in
terms of three of the members were sort of part
of these street hip hop circles and were already sort
of performing or writing raps and producing before they became idols.
So I'm talking about Rm, he was writing raps and
(20:27):
releasing music before he was training at Big Hit Entertainment.
Shuga was also rapping and producing, and then Jay Hope
was part of a street dance crew. What it seems
like is that big hit at the time, they wanted
to really create this more hip hop leaning group that
they could take the talents that these members had already
(20:48):
developed and then maybe match them with more idleish members
which they would then scout and then put together this
pretty unique format for a boy group. And like, after
their debut, the chairman of their company even said, like
convinced them to join, like become an idol, become part
(21:09):
of this group by saying, you won't have to learn
complicated choreography, it won't be that kind of group. It'll
be a hip hop group. And then they joined and
they were like, oh, you lied to us, So they
talked about that openly. But all that is to say
is that the songwriting is super strong, because I think
RM and Sugar they have been really the backbone of
(21:31):
the songwriting and they're just very analytical but also poetic
sort of writers in their own ways. And I think
having that foundation, but then also having other producers and
songwriters kind of making them into catchy hits. And then
as they debuted and went from more like hip hop
sounding to like more synthpop electropop to the bubblegun pops
(21:53):
that they eventually made. I think that's sort of where
it all like came together, where fans noted that there
was a lot of interesting lyricism and songwriting to grab onto,
but then they could also have the very like catchy
fun moments as well.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
I'm curious because we're talking about Map of the Soul
and it's place in their story and in their mythology.
And yes, and like you said, this kind of world building.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
That they've done totally.
Speaker 4 (22:19):
I do know that like world building was an extremely
important part of just cultivating that fandom. Like I said,
people really like to grab onto storylines that have nothing
to do with them, that exist in a fantasy land
outside of them. And because like I said, RM is
super like into literature and like looking up different like
(22:40):
psychology terms, they took Freudian and Youngian language to build
out this like universe of pop music. Yeah, that's what
I can say about it.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
I mean, the two songs that are on the list,
spring Day and Dynamite, really tell two very distinct sides
of the BTS story. And I talk about spring Day
a little bit about the significance.
Speaker 4 (23:02):
Spring Day is one of my favorite personally my favorite
BTS songs. It is one of my go to karaoke songs.
I think the lyrics are so beautiful. They're basically in
this category of BTS music that I like to just
call yearning music, which is they're expressing when will I
(23:24):
see you again, and using this imagery of like snowflakes
falling but also like blossoms falling to convey this passage
of like from the transition between winter to spring and
waiting for this person to come back to their life
or seeing them again in this sort.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
Of like ethereal otherworldly way. I don't know, That's how
I see the song. So it's at its court, it's a.
Speaker 4 (23:51):
Ballad, but there is a lot of this like electrocynth
production underneath that kind of pushes it through. And then
like I said, like RM and Shuga like bringing in
there that make it a little bit more unique and
break up the structure of the song. It has become
sort of this interesting piece of culture within South Korean
(24:11):
mainstream culture because the song has been tied to the
Civil Fairy tragedy where unfortunately there was this horrible event
where these elementary schoolers were taken on a field trip
to go on a faery and something happened with the
boat that ended up in this mass death. For a
(24:32):
long time that song was linked to that event unofficially
because the lyrics kind of convey this sadness and longing
of I will never be able to see you again.
And then I think a couple years ago they've kind
of semi confirmed in interviews that they're comfortable with that
song being tied to that event, and so I'm not
(24:54):
sure exactly if it was written in response to the event,
but it seems like they are okay with people thinking
that it's connected.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Yeah, I mean, there is so much beauty connecting it
to the purpose of Dynamite being released when it was
and being released mid pandemic and meant to be this
kind of like light to their fans and to their listeners,
which ended up going beyond, of course the core fandom
and finding such like a massive audience. I mean, how
do you kind of envision what Dynamite started to begin
for this new chapter for BTS's career and leading to
(25:26):
a string of big hits from them, and also kind
of the widening of their fan base.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
Definitely.
Speaker 4 (25:31):
I think Dynamite is such a pivotal point where there
is such a clear before and after. They have talked
in interviews about the fact that they were promoting their
single on from Map of the Soul in February twenty
twenty and had to cancel in the middle of promotions,
was going to go on this whole world tour and
had to cancel all of that, regroup and figure out
(25:53):
what their next direction is. And Dynamite was the next direction,
and it really like skyrocketed them at a time when
people really needed escapism, like energetic music. I think disco
was like kind of in the ether that year with
like Doja Kat and Dua Lipa or in that era
I mean, and I think I pulled a quote from
(26:15):
RM who said, like in the video where they announced
that they would like focus on their solo projects, he said, like,
I didn't know what we would do after On, but
then COVID came up, so we did Dynamite. Butter Permission
to dance. Life goes on and I realized that the group
has definitely changed. We have to accept that we've changed.
For me, it was like the group ETS was within
my grasp until On in Dynamite, but then after Butter
(26:38):
and Permission to dance, I didn't know what kind of
group we were anymore. What I get from that is
that they didn't really realize that Dynamite was gonna get
so big and they were just trying something. I think
they were trying a lot of new things where it
was a song where the group members like didn't participate
in songwriting, which was very rare for them. They got
some I believe Americans writers to co write a song
(27:01):
and then they just sang it and it was also
what's kind of unusual for the song is that all
the vocal lines for the members are all pretty much
the same, Like it's they all get like a couple
verses here and there, but it's not like RM and
Sugar and Jahope are rapping and then like there's a
specific like bridge or something for Chung Gup, like all
(27:23):
of them kind of get a similar melody. And I
think that that was unusual at the time because it
was more of a straightforward pop song that they were
just like, Okay, we'll sing it. And so what RM
was kind of saying about like losing not being able
to grasp the group's identity anymore is that they made Dynamite,
it blew up, and then they I think the company
(27:46):
tried to recreate that magic with Butter, which I think
they did successfully. I love Butter personally, but then there
was like this expectation to either continue that sort of
standard pop music or what they go back to the
sort of creative, very BTS music that they made before.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
Yeah wow, And I mean they've all rolled out solo
albums at this point since they've been on their hiatus
for military service, and I'm curious, like in that identity sense,
like what do those solo albums say about where the
members of BTS are now?
Speaker 4 (28:21):
Creative way I think I've kind of hinted before, But
I think also a magic of BTS is that all
of the members are so different. They have all such
different personalities, they all have such different tastes in music,
they express themselves in completely different ways, and that's not
the case with all K pop groups. Sometimes companies make
groups where they want the members to be somewhat similar
(28:43):
or want them to have a certain vibe, and with BTS,
they I feel like they really wanted people who were
all different and unique, and it feels like big hit
help foster that uniqueness, even if they did have to
come together as a group. And so I see the
solo albums as each of the members is really trying
to like challenge themselves to make their unique statement, make
(29:04):
the music that they couldn't make before. For RM, that
means making very like experimental indie folk to indie rock,
to like electronic R and B, and like kind of
going all over the place. That's what he did with Indigo.
With Jay Hope, that means making this like really intense
trap music and so on and so forth.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
You've written so powerfully about spring Day and about the
sort of the emotional history of that song in its
place and their legacy and in their story. I guess
we're talking about different songs that represent different sort of
moments in their history. And you talk about the category
of yearning songs. Oh yeah, okay, I'm curious what other
(29:45):
categories you have in mind when you think about their music.
Speaker 4 (29:49):
In terms of BTS categories. I would say there's the
really like hard hitting hip hop songs where they're just
going in with their lyricism and like traying like a
super cool like rap persona. So their songs like ooh,
their Cipher series. I love that category as well. And
(30:09):
I would also say they have songs that are about
like the power of friendship and like loving each other,
which I think is also very appealing to fans because
they like seeing like idols interact in terms of like
seeing like platonic intimacy in a way, and so those
songs are also really tender and wonderful. Yeah, and there's
(30:30):
also some songs that are more like social commentary, more
speaking from the perspective of youth and teenagers. And so
one of my other favorites is this song called silver Spoon,
which is just kind of talking to older generations, being like,
why do you keep on telling us to work harder
when society is not set up to help us out.
(30:51):
And so there's a lot of different categories with them,
which I think has helped their success a lot.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
And finally, to sort of broaden out and to think
about the future of a lie like the five hundred
three of songs of all the time list, of course,
what do you kind of envision in the future, like
maybe a future kind of like a decade from now,
of like what songs you'd like to see on the
list beyond of course BTS, if there are, of course
BTS songs that you think should make a future version
of the list, but artists or songs that should be
(31:19):
represented in the future that's had a big impact both.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
On K pop and pop music generally.
Speaker 4 (31:24):
Yes, definitely. The first artist that came to mind was
maybe a New Gene song because I think they've had
such a strong impact on not only the K pop landscape,
a lot of aesthetics kind of followed since their debut,
So perhaps New Genes, But I think it would be
really interesting to like go back and look at sort
(31:44):
of the more seminole K pop songs and like see
if those have a place in the list. I helped
like make the one hundred best Songs in the History
of Korean pop music list for a Rolling Stone, and
our number one was g by Girls Generation, which is
just such a sugar bomb of a song, and I
(32:06):
think that we really try to recognize that song as
like there is a place for cuteness and loveliness in
pop music, and K pop girl groups really nail it,
and so I'm wondering if there can be more of
those vibes on the list.
Speaker 3 (32:25):
Well, thank you so much. Michelle for joining us today.
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
Thank you, thank you, thanks so much for listening to
Rolling Stones five hundred Greatest Songs. This podcast is brought
to you by Rolling Stone and iHeartMedia Brittan. Hosted by Me,
Britney Spannis and Rob Sheffield. Executive produced by Gus Winner,
Jason Fine, Alex Dale and Christian Horde, and produced by
Jesse Cannon, with music supervision by Eric Seiler
Welcome to five hundred Greatest Songs, a podcast based on
Rolling Stones hugely popular, influential and sometimes controversialist. I'm Britney
Spanos and.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I'm Rob Sheffield and we're here to shed light on
the greatest songs ever made and discover what makes them
so great. And this week's song Dynamite by BTS.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
This is one of two songs by BTS that are
on the Greatest Songs of All Time lists. They made
their debut, of course in twenty twenty one, ranking at
number three forty seven with Dynamite, and then spring Day
landed at number.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
Two hundred and eighty.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
And I mean BTS was already massive phenomenons at that point,
but Dynamite kind of tipped over the edge of BTS
mania that would happen globally. I mean, this was their
first number one song on the Billboard Hot one hundred.
This was their first fully English language song, and this
was the first time in all South Korean group hit
(00:53):
number one on the Hot one hundred.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
They also broke barriers with the Grammys as well.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
They got their first Grammy nomination and we're also the
first South Korean artists to be nominated for a Grammy Award.
I mean, it was just kind of a boundary breaking,
massive moment for this band.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Yeah, Like spring Day and Dynamite kind of a beautiful
pair on the list just because they're sort of opposite
extremes of the BTS story. Spring Day is them like
as the South Korean band. It's a song that was
for the hardcore fans, a very emotional, very inspiring song,
a very message oriented song. And Dynamite is after they've
(01:30):
become global phenomenon by being exactly themselves, not compromising anything
like that. They got so huge in the US, which
is so historically resistant to any music not in English,
and they just did not cross over to North America.
They made North America cross over to them and Dynamite.
For them to finally do an English language song after
(01:53):
they were so massive here on their own terms was
just kind of beautiful. They didn't do it because they
had to or because it would get them anything that
they didn't already have, Like they just they felt like
doing this.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Yeah, and the song in particular too, the timing of
it was so much. They released this in August twenty twenty,
and this is this song is like, I mean, it's
just like Sunshine bottled up into a song. It's like
a really great kind of like seventies funk, like very
like Bruno Mars Uptown funky esque type of song.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
It's like really bright and happy.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
And of course this was August twenty twenty, not a
particularly bright or happy time for anyone around the globe.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
And I mean it's very purposeful.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
They wanted to release a song that was, you know,
meant to put a smile on people's faces, bring a
little bit of joy and lightness, you know. Bts as
songwriters that are coming from a place of talking about
being a young person in South Korea who's dealing with
kind of the pressures of a perfection, or about mental health,
or about grief. Spring Day a perfect example of that.
(02:51):
And this was a song that they very intentionally wanted
to put out into the world that was kind of
countering the amount of grief that people were facing. And
it's just kind of a beautiful sentiment and obviously the
song did just that for a lot of people.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Yeah, it really struck a nerve. It would have been
so different if they did the song a couple of
years earlier, you know, when they were still on the
rise in this part of the world where it would
have seemed or in some way it might have been
a sort of compromise to try to broaden their audience.
But they did dynamite when they were already as big
as any group could possibly be. Yeah, it was almost
(03:26):
a victory lap for them. And like you said that,
it was at a very bleak global time and very
similar message, very similar emotional impact as Spring Day, but
on a just broader global scale.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Yeah, And I mean, like many boy bands before them,
you know, you don't really need a number one to
tell you that this band is like the biggest in
the world, right, Like this is kind of like the
stats quote for a lot of like really big kind
of global success type of stadium filling boy bands. I mean,
like One Direction is a great example of that, where
it's like number one hits don't necessarily measure the global
impact of a group like this. But BTS already broken
(04:00):
the dam for K pop globally as a crossover artist,
you know, well before the song blew up, And you know,
it's just kind of a sort of solidified that in
a lot of ways, it's sort of just kind of
further solidified that legacy of what they had done for
K pop as a genre, for idol groups overall. For
that kind of like legacy of that in this particular
moment where they can be a crossover success in any capacity.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Yeah, really, while also that it came so soon after
I mean the whole map of the Soul franchise and
just how complex that is. What I think made them
like so forbidding and intimidating to people, Like when they
first started to crossover in this part of the world
was just that they were not what people figured when
people heard the words k pop or boy band, they
(04:45):
had an image of one thing, and like bts were
just so complex in terms of the mythology and in
terms of you know, it's like, yeah, they do concept
albums about Nietzsche and Kyl Jung and like this, this
is what they do. Like nothing they do is watered down.
So for them to do Dynamite a very simple, accessible
across the board, anybody hearing this could like it at
(05:06):
first listen, just a real statement in itself.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Yeah, I mean with Dynamite, I mean, with this kind
of like further breakthrough post map of the Soul everything
that was going on, I mean of course, like Map
of the Soul was already massive in its own right.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
They were a decade in.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
At this point since they had first formed, and you know,
seven years since they made their debut. But I love
kind of like the origin of RM being this like
underground wrapper and like this Big Hit Wine to create
a hip hop group around him. So Sugar and Jay
Hope were the first ones recruited and eventually kind of
decided to pivot to an idol group. And we're having
(05:41):
like struggling getting people to audition to be part of
an idol group. I mean, now Big Hit Entertainment is
like one of the biggest names in kpop globally, I
mean just in pop music globally, and we're kind of,
you know, a very lesser known label at that point.
But Yeah, eventually formed a group in twenty ten, spent
three years training. They were like living together. They were
spending like fifteen hours a day training and practicing to
(06:04):
become this like powerhouse group. I mean you can tell
and like every single one of the performances, like they
are just like incredibly talented, each of them, And you know,
in twenty thirteen, made their debut and started releasing music
under big hit and obviously I've become one of the
one of the biggest bands in history.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Yeah, and did it by playing up their weirdness. I mean,
it is funny, especially when they started to like make
inroads here where you know, there's real resistance to boy bands.
People like never really appreciate them. The whole tradition legacy
is that they have this pop audience that they start
with and other audiences really threatened by that. I know
(06:47):
the memory is similar for you. But when one of
the first times that they were on one of the
American late night chat shows and there was this funny
idea of like, how we'll dress them up is the Beatles.
Oh playing at Sullivan doesn't hold up great with time.
Yeah now, but even at that time seemed like really
like uncomprehending of how original they were and the idea
(07:07):
the only way Americans could appreciate this was by channeling
it through something that they already knew that was from
England and got it completely backwards, because BTS became stadium
band here just by being themselves and honestly, they didn't
have any songs that sounded like the Beatles, and they
just they weren't like the Beatles. They were their own
(07:30):
kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Yeah, I mean, it was one of those things, especially
with K pop iidle groups. I mean, they've existed for
a very long time, and these groups have always been
very very successful and massive in a lot of ways
in a lot of markets. Obviously, there was very little
breakthrough in the American market until BTS. I mean other
than cy blowing up and becoming kind of like this
(07:51):
viral like mean sort of sort of artist and song
with Gongenham style. But I mean BTS was that kind
of like really important art group. But that like really
helped kind of show for a lot of like American
industry experts and people who are like paying attention to
really great pop music that this was like a massive
global success and something worth paying attention to and bigger
(08:14):
than are previously seeing kind of quantifiable ways of measuring success.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
That's such a brilliant way to put it. They were
just outside any model that people could use in any
I mean, certainly like going back in time to when
they were first making records, it would have been easy
for any American expert in the music busins to say
what they should do. If you want to be popular here,
It's like, Okay, first you have to do some songs
in English. You have to do duets with very famous
(08:41):
American stars who have fallen on hard times, which is
why they're doing this kind of duet. You need to
pick some members of the group and make them the
front people. You need to really limit what they do,
so it's very understandable and accessible. And it's almost like
they anticipated that advice and did the exact opposite of
all that stuff, and that their story couldn't have happened
(09:02):
if they'd tried to compromise in any way.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Yeah, And I mean it's such a great story of
kind of the power of fandom. I mean, this is
just like a band that is very close with their
with the BTS Army, with their fans, like has kind of,
you know, just organically built this like really worldwide network
of people who love them and kind of appreciate the
(09:25):
fact that they exist in this way where they have
their their personalities, they each have like their strengths, and
you know, I mean we're seeing this now with their
solo releases that they're they're rolling out. I mean, there's
so much talent kind of locked into this group, Like
people just could not like had not seen something like
that before.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Yeah, it was funny that in terms of them, in
terms of like Dynamite being them's, it couldn't have been
Dynamite if they'd done it as a step up into
the English language or American market. It was really something
that only became the triumph it became because they did
it after they didn't need that kind of that move anymore.
Like they're duet with Megan. They didn't do that to
(10:04):
get more popular. Yeah, Like they did that because they
were so popular. Yeah, because they had such a fascinating
combination with Megan. Yeah, that record is just so unique
for both of them, Like they did not need to
meet each other in the middle, and they didn't.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Yeah, and even with Dynamite, I mean, this is like
one of the first songs that none of them had
a hand in writing too. Like they like them, they've
been writing their own music since they were you know,
kids like that, they've been doing this the entire time.
Is like also especially given how part of the success
of BTS is kind of they were writing from this
place of this like very real you know. They have
like the school series where they're talking about their experiences
(10:41):
as teens and they're they're translating that to their music
and kind of what they were going through, and that's
always been such an important part of their success and
of their music. And I think we talk about that
all the time with so many artists who.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
Start really young.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Is like, what draws in those fans and what draws
and people caring about them is them just kind of
relaying that experience of being young and what it's like
to a new generation of people who are young and
trying to make sense of the world. And that's exactly
what BTS was doing for their fans from the you know,
from the time they broke and from the time they debuted.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Yeah, you made such a crucial point about them in
terms of their evolution that this happens after the Internet
has created a new kind of fan community, fan culture
that exists independent of the conventional music industry, so that
they could really do an end run around the conventional
industry just because it was so suddenly so accessible for
(11:36):
people around the world from all different cultures, all different generations,
all different languages, all different styles of music, so accessible
for people to find that music and make their own
connection to it.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Yeah, and I think like it's always you know, interesting
talking with people about kind of like what those origins
of really like massive sort of fan networks online where
and I think everyone sort of has different answers, right,
because I mean like there's like, you know, people think
about Low Monsters and like how they function online, but
like you know, in comparison to like One Direction, right,
Like you know, the Low Monsters were less involved with
(12:08):
like the success of Lady Gaga as like you know,
directioners were involved with the success of One Direction. But
you know, like I mentioned earlier, like it's so much
like K pop fandom existing online because this was like
that kind of global connection.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
Is that feels so much to me like the.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Defining aspect of of how internet fandoms formed and how
they work on you know, from different chat rooms and
you know kind of the kind of nascent version of
ways people talk to each other online to like Humblr
and MySpace and Twitter now and then.
Speaker 3 (12:39):
TikTok and all of that.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
That feels like that origin and sort of that kind
of natural progression of making an act like BTS become
as big as.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
They have become, absolutely and boy, like what you said
about the army, like being part of the group is
so true. And that's such a long tradition for boy bands,
and yet they always have this song that's about you know,
the fans. They always have the tribute. They always know
that the audience is there. They've all got the classic
song that's you know, they're larger than life, They're you know,
(13:10):
like thank you girls. There's song that's directly to the audience,
and that BTS just made such a tradition of that
in itself. So many great love songs that come on
and you go through them as conventional love songs, but
they're heard and meant to be heard as you know,
songs between the boys and their audience.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Yeah, And I'm curious, like, do you think that Dynamite
will be that like I want it that way for BTS,
Like or do you see another song or maybe we
haven't heard that song yet, but do you think that
this will become that song for them? Or do you
have another one that you feel stands out in that way?
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Wow, it's interesting. Would you say, we don't know if
Dynamite is going to go down in history as the one.
It's funny like Dynamite is one that just it stands
out as a highlight, but I don't know if it'll
go down in history as you know, the highlight of
this phase at least.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
Yeah, And I mean just even like the timing, you know,
of course, in twenty twenty two, you know, all the
members ended up having to put this on pause so
that they can do their eighteen months of mandatory military
service in South Korea. They're all kind of doing it
at different times and obviously depending on age and kind
of going in order of that. So they've been slowly
rolling out solo albums, which have also done extremely well
(14:24):
and been really like massive successes for them. Though I
am curious kind of what happens in twenty twenty five,
which is when they said they would end up returning
to the group and releasing more music, and what that
will look like. I trust them more than other boy
bands that have said that they're on hiatus, So I'm
gonna I'm gonna believe that they're they will come back together,
because it did feel like it was just a kind
(14:46):
of a new a new beginning for them as a group.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Yeah, And this is always a hiatus to head a
particular purpose. Yeah, and they knew this was coming. This
is part of like a long term planning for them.
It didn't come by surprise.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
Yeah, Obviously, strategy can't tell you like how big a
band will get, like, no matter how well you're strategizing.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
But they knew it was coming.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
It just so happened that they were one of the
best selling acts of the world. Yes, as the time
that happened.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Yeah, for something like Dynamite, and when it came at
a time when they didn't have to work through conventional
North American media. I think a lot of us associate
Dynamite with when they were on the Grammys doing Dynamite,
and it was a first for them to be doing
one of their songs on the Grammys. They were on,
you know, the year before doing soul Town Road, which
(15:31):
was a phenomenal ten second moment in the Grammys.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
Bedne I'm almost completely forgot about. That was such a
good moment.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
It was such a great moment.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
And next up, we will be joined by Michelle Kim,
who is a freelance editor and writer whose work has
appeared in Rolling Stone, Pitchfork, Teen, Vogue, The Guardian, and
much more. We are joined now by Michelle Kim, who
is an amazing freelance writer and editor who's written for
Rolling Stone and numerous other outlets. And thank you so
much for joining us today.
Speaker 4 (15:59):
Thanks you having me.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
Yeah, I'm very excited.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
So I mean, tell us a little bit about the
origins of both your BTS fandom and also covering them.
Speaker 4 (16:08):
Yes, so, honestly, I have sort of a maybe complicated
relationship with K pop, or I did have growing up
because I was super into it in middle school.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
Was super into Big Bang.
Speaker 4 (16:20):
That was like my original group, if you will. But
then as I kind of got older, I didn't really
know if I wanted to keep on listening to the
Korean music because I didn't know if I wanted to
fit in more within like my American school, and whenever
I listened to Korean music, I felt kind of alienated
from it. So I knew of BTS and I kept
(16:40):
up with their singles. I had friends who liked them,
so I knew them as they were kind of rising
from I would say, like twenty seventeen when DNA got
really big, and then in the pandemic, everything sort of
blew up with Dynamite, and that was also a time
when we were all isolated. I was kind of looking
inwards myself and trying to figure out, like what's going on.
(17:03):
And I think BTS was actually like a really important
part of me, like taking Korean classes for the first time,
like connecting back to my heritage, and just because there
was so much content, I kind of just like fell
into this k pop hole.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
And I mean from your perspective too of being a
young fan of you know, a lot of idol groups
and artists, like what was sort of that development of
the popularity of Korean music in the US or kind
of especially leading up to BTS breaking through and kind
of building sort of even more success in the US
and allowing you know, I guess, like more recognition for
a lot of other artists from South Korea. But I'm curious,
(17:42):
like what your perspective is of especially the online fandom
portion of Yes.
Speaker 4 (17:46):
Yeah, So I would say growing up it was pretty
niche to like K pop, And I would say that
there was some sort of like enclaves of communities, probably
more on the West Coast in California that like, we're
super into it as a niche thing that they liked.
But I grew up on the East Coast, so like
fandom was pretty fragmented for me, and there's just some
(18:06):
songs that like me and my brother listened to only
from what it felt like for me. But during the pandemic,
like I said, since everyone was inside looking for an
escape from their dreary, like just waking up in your
own house every day. I think that because K pop
produces so much content around the music itself, whether that's
(18:26):
music videos, behind the scenes footage and them goofing around,
and also just a lot of idol groups making what
they call variety content, which is just them like playing
games with each other like you would see on a
variety show. And I think BTS actually kind of kicked
off this huge trend of idols doing that sort of
content because they started their run BTS series I think
(18:50):
in twenty fifteen, where they just would hang out play games.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
It was super funny.
Speaker 4 (18:54):
You got to see the members' personalities outside of their
very serious stage persona, and I think at that time
and during the pandemic, a lot of people started watching
that show, watching their YouTube video. They have behind the
scenes content called punk t on Bombs, which are just
them being backstage goofing around. And I think just the
(19:16):
fact that people could watch so much minutia of someone
else's daily life that wasn't their own, Like the fandom
really blew up.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Yeah, And I mean what is it about them in particular?
Speaker 3 (19:32):
I mean it is I mean the personality is obviously
such a big part of it.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
They all are just like so charismatic and so just
like kind of energy personified and like both their performances
and also what we see off stage. But I mean
obviously the music is I mean just the way it's
developed over the last I guess, like decade of them
being a public band, Like, what is it about that
chemistry that they have as a group that made them
(19:58):
break through in the way that they have even before
Dynamite being their first fully English language single, I mean,
what was it about them?
Speaker 3 (20:05):
In particular?
Speaker 4 (20:06):
The origin of BTS was a pretty unusual one in
terms of three of the members were sort of part
of these street hip hop circles and were already sort
of performing or writing raps and producing before they became idols.
So I'm talking about Rm, he was writing raps and
(20:27):
releasing music before he was training at Big Hit Entertainment.
Shuga was also rapping and producing, and then Jay Hope
was part of a street dance crew. What it seems
like is that big hit at the time, they wanted
to really create this more hip hop leaning group that
they could take the talents that these members had already
(20:48):
developed and then maybe match them with more idleish members
which they would then scout and then put together this
pretty unique format for a boy group. And like, after
their debut, the chairman of their company even said, like
convinced them to join, like become an idol, become part
(21:09):
of this group by saying, you won't have to learn
complicated choreography, it won't be that kind of group. It'll
be a hip hop group. And then they joined and
they were like, oh, you lied to us, So they
talked about that openly. But all that is to say
is that the songwriting is super strong, because I think
RM and Sugar they have been really the backbone of
(21:31):
the songwriting and they're just very analytical but also poetic
sort of writers in their own ways. And I think
having that foundation, but then also having other producers and
songwriters kind of making them into catchy hits. And then
as they debuted and went from more like hip hop
sounding to like more synthpop electropop to the bubblegun pops
(21:53):
that they eventually made. I think that's sort of where
it all like came together, where fans noted that there
was a lot of interesting lyricism and songwriting to grab onto,
but then they could also have the very like catchy
fun moments as well.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
I'm curious because we're talking about Map of the Soul
and it's place in their story and in their mythology.
And yes, and like you said, this kind of world building.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
That they've done totally.
Speaker 4 (22:19):
I do know that like world building was an extremely
important part of just cultivating that fandom. Like I said,
people really like to grab onto storylines that have nothing
to do with them, that exist in a fantasy land
outside of them. And because like I said, RM is
super like into literature and like looking up different like
(22:40):
psychology terms, they took Freudian and Youngian language to build
out this like universe of pop music. Yeah, that's what
I can say about it.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
I mean, the two songs that are on the list,
spring Day and Dynamite, really tell two very distinct sides
of the BTS story. And I talk about spring Day
a little bit about the significance.
Speaker 4 (23:02):
Spring Day is one of my favorite personally my favorite
BTS songs. It is one of my go to karaoke songs.
I think the lyrics are so beautiful. They're basically in
this category of BTS music that I like to just
call yearning music, which is they're expressing when will I
(23:24):
see you again, and using this imagery of like snowflakes
falling but also like blossoms falling to convey this passage
of like from the transition between winter to spring and
waiting for this person to come back to their life
or seeing them again in this sort.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
Of like ethereal otherworldly way. I don't know, That's how
I see the song. So it's at its court, it's a.
Speaker 4 (23:51):
Ballad, but there is a lot of this like electrocynth
production underneath that kind of pushes it through. And then
like I said, like RM and Shuga like bringing in
there that make it a little bit more unique and
break up the structure of the song. It has become
sort of this interesting piece of culture within South Korean
(24:11):
mainstream culture because the song has been tied to the
Civil Fairy tragedy where unfortunately there was this horrible event
where these elementary schoolers were taken on a field trip
to go on a faery and something happened with the
boat that ended up in this mass death. For a
(24:32):
long time that song was linked to that event unofficially
because the lyrics kind of convey this sadness and longing
of I will never be able to see you again.
And then I think a couple years ago they've kind
of semi confirmed in interviews that they're comfortable with that
song being tied to that event, and so I'm not
(24:54):
sure exactly if it was written in response to the event,
but it seems like they are okay with people thinking
that it's connected.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Yeah, I mean, there is so much beauty connecting it
to the purpose of Dynamite being released when it was
and being released mid pandemic and meant to be this
kind of like light to their fans and to their listeners,
which ended up going beyond, of course the core fandom
and finding such like a massive audience. I mean, how
do you kind of envision what Dynamite started to begin
for this new chapter for BTS's career and leading to
(25:26):
a string of big hits from them, and also kind
of the widening of their fan base.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
Definitely.
Speaker 4 (25:31):
I think Dynamite is such a pivotal point where there
is such a clear before and after. They have talked
in interviews about the fact that they were promoting their
single on from Map of the Soul in February twenty
twenty and had to cancel in the middle of promotions,
was going to go on this whole world tour and
had to cancel all of that, regroup and figure out
(25:53):
what their next direction is. And Dynamite was the next direction,
and it really like skyrocketed them at a time when
people really needed escapism, like energetic music. I think disco
was like kind of in the ether that year with
like Doja Kat and Dua Lipa or in that era
I mean, and I think I pulled a quote from
(26:15):
RM who said, like in the video where they announced
that they would like focus on their solo projects, he said, like,
I didn't know what we would do after On, but
then COVID came up, so we did Dynamite. Butter Permission
to dance. Life goes on and I realized that the group
has definitely changed. We have to accept that we've changed.
For me, it was like the group ETS was within
my grasp until On in Dynamite, but then after Butter
(26:38):
and Permission to dance, I didn't know what kind of
group we were anymore. What I get from that is
that they didn't really realize that Dynamite was gonna get
so big and they were just trying something. I think
they were trying a lot of new things where it
was a song where the group members like didn't participate
in songwriting, which was very rare for them. They got
some I believe Americans writers to co write a song
(27:01):
and then they just sang it and it was also
what's kind of unusual for the song is that all
the vocal lines for the members are all pretty much
the same, Like it's they all get like a couple
verses here and there, but it's not like RM and
Sugar and Jahope are rapping and then like there's a
specific like bridge or something for Chung Gup, like all
(27:23):
of them kind of get a similar melody. And I
think that that was unusual at the time because it
was more of a straightforward pop song that they were
just like, Okay, we'll sing it. And so what RM
was kind of saying about like losing not being able
to grasp the group's identity anymore is that they made Dynamite,
it blew up, and then they I think the company
(27:46):
tried to recreate that magic with Butter, which I think
they did successfully. I love Butter personally, but then there
was like this expectation to either continue that sort of
standard pop music or what they go back to the
sort of creative, very BTS music that they made before.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
Yeah wow, And I mean they've all rolled out solo
albums at this point since they've been on their hiatus
for military service, and I'm curious, like in that identity sense,
like what do those solo albums say about where the
members of BTS are now?
Speaker 4 (28:21):
Creative way I think I've kind of hinted before, But
I think also a magic of BTS is that all
of the members are so different. They have all such
different personalities, they all have such different tastes in music,
they express themselves in completely different ways, and that's not
the case with all K pop groups. Sometimes companies make
groups where they want the members to be somewhat similar
(28:43):
or want them to have a certain vibe, and with BTS,
they I feel like they really wanted people who were
all different and unique, and it feels like big hit
help foster that uniqueness, even if they did have to
come together as a group. And so I see the
solo albums as each of the members is really trying
to like challenge themselves to make their unique statement, make
(29:04):
the music that they couldn't make before. For RM, that
means making very like experimental indie folk to indie rock,
to like electronic R and B, and like kind of
going all over the place. That's what he did with Indigo.
With Jay Hope, that means making this like really intense
trap music and so on and so forth.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
You've written so powerfully about spring Day and about the
sort of the emotional history of that song in its
place and their legacy and in their story. I guess
we're talking about different songs that represent different sort of
moments in their history. And you talk about the category
of yearning songs. Oh yeah, okay, I'm curious what other
(29:45):
categories you have in mind when you think about their music.
Speaker 4 (29:49):
In terms of BTS categories. I would say there's the
really like hard hitting hip hop songs where they're just
going in with their lyricism and like traying like a
super cool like rap persona. So their songs like ooh,
their Cipher series. I love that category as well. And
(30:09):
I would also say they have songs that are about
like the power of friendship and like loving each other,
which I think is also very appealing to fans because
they like seeing like idols interact in terms of like
seeing like platonic intimacy in a way, and so those
songs are also really tender and wonderful. Yeah, and there's
(30:30):
also some songs that are more like social commentary, more
speaking from the perspective of youth and teenagers. And so
one of my other favorites is this song called silver Spoon,
which is just kind of talking to older generations, being like,
why do you keep on telling us to work harder
when society is not set up to help us out.
(30:51):
And so there's a lot of different categories with them,
which I think has helped their success a lot.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
And finally, to sort of broaden out and to think
about the future of a lie like the five hundred
three of songs of all the time list, of course,
what do you kind of envision in the future, like
maybe a future kind of like a decade from now,
of like what songs you'd like to see on the
list beyond of course BTS, if there are, of course
BTS songs that you think should make a future version
of the list, but artists or songs that should be
(31:19):
represented in the future that's had a big impact both.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
On K pop and pop music generally.
Speaker 4 (31:24):
Yes, definitely. The first artist that came to mind was
maybe a New Gene song because I think they've had
such a strong impact on not only the K pop landscape,
a lot of aesthetics kind of followed since their debut,
So perhaps New Genes, But I think it would be
really interesting to like go back and look at sort
(31:44):
of the more seminole K pop songs and like see
if those have a place in the list. I helped
like make the one hundred best Songs in the History
of Korean pop music list for a Rolling Stone, and
our number one was g by Girls Generation, which is
just such a sugar bomb of a song, and I
(32:06):
think that we really try to recognize that song as
like there is a place for cuteness and loveliness in
pop music, and K pop girl groups really nail it,
and so I'm wondering if there can be more of
those vibes on the list.
Speaker 3 (32:25):
Well, thank you so much. Michelle for joining us today.
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
Thank you, thank you, thanks so much for listening to
Rolling Stones five hundred Greatest Songs. This podcast is brought
to you by Rolling Stone and iHeartMedia Brittan. Hosted by Me,
Britney Spannis and Rob Sheffield. Executive produced by Gus Winner,
Jason Fine, Alex Dale and Christian Horde, and produced by
Jesse Cannon, with music supervision by Eric Seiler
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