July 31, 2024 • 30 mins
Only a few rare songs ever turn into pop classics. But this one turned into a classic twice. “Killing Me Softly” not only made Rolling Stone’s list of the 500 Greatest Songs of All Time with the 1973 Roberta Flack hit at Number 273, but also with the 1996 Fugees hit which comes in at Number 359. It’s the only song on the list that appears in two different versions.
On this week’s episode, hosts Rob Sheffield and Brittany Spanos discuss the long-running story of “Killing Me Softly,” and how both these different versions just keep growing in stature over the years. They’re joined by their brilliant Rolling Stone colleague David Browne, breaking down how a Seventies pop ballad became a Nineties hip-hop smash, and why both versions remain universally beloved.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to five hundred Greatest Songs, a podcast based on
Rolling Stones hugely popular, influential, and sometimes controversialist.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
I'm Britney Spanos and I'm Rob Sheffield.
Speaker 3 (00:11):
We're here to shed light on the greatest songs ever
made and discover what makes them so great. This week,
we're going into Killing Me Softly.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
This is the only song on the list that has
two different versions that are on the list. The Roberta
nineteen seventy three version is at number two hundred and
seventy three and the Fuji's nineteen ninety six version is
at number three hundred and fifty nine. Both were Grammy
winning number one hits, massive during their times of release
and both ended up making the list.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
Amazing and two very emotional versions of a very emotional song.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Yeah, and obviously there's a lot of I feel like
a lot of people always attribute to roberta Flax version
being the first. I kind of wanted to get into
the story behind the making of Killing Me Softly with
his song, which is it?
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Like I was reading about it, I.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Was like, this is so kind of crazy, going back
to the original and sort of the controversy over the
lyrics and the writing credits over the years, but the
original version came out a year prior to A Bird
of Flax, which was Lori Lieberman who was nineteen when
she first wrote it. And she wrote it actually during
a Don McLean concert and was watching him perform the
ballad empty Chairs and was just like so moved by
(01:24):
it that she started writing on her napkin during the show,
this song that's basically about Don McLean singing this like
heart wrenching ballad.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
It was like he found her letters and read each
one out of loud. Lori Lieberman's version, like you said,
that's a whole amazing story.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Yeah, and it's I mean that version is very very
traditionally like soft rock. And it is crazy how many
lives this song has lived, just even sonically, I mean,
even by the standards of covers and how covers can
have different lives. I mean, that's something that we've covered
so much that we see constantly. It is so wild,
how desparate each version of this song has been. Specifically
(02:02):
these like three main you know, tent pole versions of
killing Me Softly that existed.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
And Laurie Lieberman's version. How does it sound to you
compared to the Roberta Flag version that became so massive.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
It's so much more understated and like subdued. Like Roberta's
kind of has this like, I think, like Laurie's almost
sounds closer to the Lauren Hill sort of vocal of
like that sort of like like kind of desperation and sadness,
and Roberta's feels like almost like a little bit there's
this sort of like jazziness and like upbeatness. I guess
just because she lifts the song a little bit more
than Laurie's version, which is again just like much more
(02:35):
like stripped down and very very classic like seventies soft
rock version.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
Funny and so obscure. It's so funny that a song
with two enormously famous versions and the one by the
author the original is barely known at all. Yeah, it's comparable,
I guess in that way too, Betty Davis, A is
a song that you know, Jackie DeShannon recorded years before
it was a hit. But nobody knows that Jackie desh
in seventies soft rock version, Yeah, they know the eighties
(03:03):
Kim Carnes synth version.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Very similar story with Killing Me Softly.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Yeah, And I mean even Lori isn't credited on the
both the ROBERTA. Flack and the Fuji's version. The original
song was composed by Charles Fox, who was actually most notable,
which I love learning this. He did a lot of
the like Sunshine pop scores for TV shows in the seventies,
like The Love Boat, and he did the original music
for Monday Night Football.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
And she co wrote the.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Lyrics with Norman Gamble, who was, you know, a songwriter
at the time, and he was doing a lot of
movie themes love Oscar Nominde movie themes. So it's the
three of them that had worked on this song originally
and worked on her first album and work sort of
a songwriting trio together and had a big falling out.
Norman and Laurie were dating for a minute while he
(03:49):
was married. They like fell out by the end of
the seventies and then by the nineties. The craziest part
of it was that Norman and Charles ended up basically
denying a story that they had been saying for years
of the donal Clean origin of this, like the donal
Clean concert, how Laurie was inspired by it and basically
tried to erase her from the entire history of the
song that wouldn't exist without her.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
Yeah, very strange how this story turned. For the first
twenty five years after ROBERTA. Flax's version became a hit,
there was no dispute, no controversy about the origin story
of Killing Me Softly. It was a very famous origin story.
Everybody knew that the song had been written about Don
McLean seeing him live, and everybody agreed on the story
(04:33):
of how this song came to be. Yeah, and then
in the nineties, legal disputes completely changed that, and yes,
the story completely changed about the authorship of the song.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
So I want to make sure that we give our
proper credit to Laurie Lieberman, who, of course, again this
great song that has lived a million and one amazing lives,
and I'm sure we'll have another several one hundred more
in the future. And she's so much the origin of
this and was essentially almost erased from the history of
the song, and you know, has been in more recent
years doing more interviews and talking about it and kind
(05:07):
of reclaiming a lot of that legacy, which I think
is great because she should obviously be given her proper
due for writing this, Like brilliantly devastating and gorgeous song
that has had you know, many beautiful covers again that
exist on our list.
Speaker 3 (05:21):
Now, Yeah, it's hard to think of another song that
famous with such a disputed origin story and that the
different sides just do not agree. Closest thing I could
think of is Wider Shade of Pale. But they both
agree who did what, they argue over what constitutes songwriting.
So even though the writers of Wider Shade of Pale
have been in court for decades and will be for decades,
(05:44):
there's still no dispute over who did what whereas this song,
it's an argument that will never be settled.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Yeah, And of course, the Laura Lieberman version that had
come out, she released it as a single on her
first album, and it was released into the world in
its first version by her, and it was actually a
Roberta flat hearing it while she was on an airplane
for the first time where she heard the song in
sort of like the in flight music, and that kind
of spurred this like couple of years that she was
really obsessed with this song and covering it and like
(06:13):
really really wanting to record it and playing it and
you know, just kind of being in love with this
version that she had heard on a flight.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
ROBERTA. Flack was on such a role. She really created
her own pop style with this super calm, super jazzy,
but very understated soul that was very pop, very torchy,
and she did it without any kind of historyonics. It's
funny that in a song like killing Me Softly or
(06:42):
any of her massive hits, really the first time ever
I Saw Your Face is another great example where she
takes this Celtic folk song by You and McCall and
turns it into completely different song that's all her own,
this real soul soliloquy yeah, and her seventy soul sound.
There was nobody else who's sounded quite like it and
had that smooth but super emotional tone, and she just
(07:04):
really brought that home with killing Me Softly.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
And the origin of her even recording it I loved,
which was that she was touring with Quincy Jones at
the time and came out for her encore and then
she needed one more song, and she decided to sing
the song that she had covered a few times before
and had wanted to record and just didn't like the
original kind of version of the recording that she had done,
and Quincy was just like, you can't keep singing the
song if you're just not gonna release it, And then
(07:29):
she did and it became a number one hit. It
was number one for five weeks. It wanted Grammy, it
was you know, it was just like a massive moment
for Roberta that you know has lived on in it
in that form for many many generations and years. I mean,
it's just like her voice sounds incredible on it, and
it's just like absolutely gorgeous and kind of just an
instant classic.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
Really, it's her own distinctive sound. What are some of
your favorites from her great seventies.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Run Ooh, I mean I think like the first time
I ever saw your face was like it's that's like
a big one for me, Like, I love, love love
that one.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
That's like a I love her voice on that one
so much.
Speaker 4 (08:06):
It's amazing.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
Yeah, it builds as it repeats, Yeah, and she really
underplays it in a really beautiful and emotional way. My
favorite is with Donnie Hathaway, where is the Love?
Speaker 5 (08:17):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (08:17):
What a song? Love hearing those two voices together a
real like archetypal seventies R and B duo.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
And isn't Donnie singing background too on Killing Me Softly?
Speaker 2 (08:26):
As well?
Speaker 4 (08:26):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (08:26):
Yes, their voices connect in so many amazing ways. Where's
the Love is my sentimental favorite. Yeah, they both have
the same question, where is the love? Neither of them knows.
They keep asking each other through the song. As far
as we know, this conversation has been going on for
hours before they turned on the tape recorder and kept
going for hours. But she had that super suave sort
(08:50):
of sound. Yeah, that was perfect for a song like
Killing Me Softly, which is very emotional and very uh,
very confessional.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Yeah, and you know, even just like her version, especially
comparing it to the original version, and just especially because
they came out only only a couple of years in
between each other. You know, Roberta is just kind of
she makes it like a little bit, you know, a
little bit faster of a song, and she adds sort
of like all these kind of She's so classically trained,
so you know, all these elements of both, you know,
(09:22):
her her own kind of classical and jazz training as
a musician kind of brought into this. But originally was
just a very kind of standard classic soft rock moment
and makes it this like impeccable R and B sound.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
It's just like really stunning.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
Yes, of course, two decades later the song sort of
it has a couple of revivals. One there's like a
like a club version of roberta Flax version that ends
up sort of you know, having a bit of a
moment in the mid nineties. And of course the Fujis recorded
for the Score and this was their sophomore album, a big,
big breakthrough for the band, and it is I mean
(09:58):
just like again, a totally different story launches.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
With the Fuji's cover of Killing Me Softly.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
Which version were you into first?
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Fujis for sure, both like the Fujis and Lauren Hill
as a solo artist. It was just like inescapable in
the nineties, like that was just like something that not
even just like hearing on the radio, like you were
just like hearing constantly like out and about that was
like music that very much soundtracked, you know, every summer
and was just.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Like hard to escape.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
So I feel like that song was one that I
heard a lot and was the first time I'd ever
heard that song, and then was very like surprised even
to hear the Bird of Flack version I think probably
later in high school college sometime sometime later, but was
shocked to kind of hear this other version of the
song that I just kind of assumed just belonged to
(10:45):
Lauren Hill and her voice and had been hers for
the entirety of its life.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
Yeah, and such a departure for the fujis Yeah really
wild that you know? The score was absolutely perfect album, Yeah,
stacked from end to end and killing Me Softly sounded
like nothing else on the album. It sounded more like
what Lauren Hill ended up doing first, Yeah solo album, Miseducation,
(11:10):
But you know, it's basically Lauren Hill's solo as an
R and B singer, which is very different from what
she's doing what the group is doing all through the
rest of the album.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
Yeah, And this the original idea for even covering the
song came from Prase and the group. They were kind
of inspired by a tribe called Quest and sort of
the breakbeat production that tribe had become very known for,
and so they wanted to do their own take on it,
and they actually wanted to change the lyrics at first,
and they wanted to make it sort of a song
about like anti poverty, anti drugs, sort of you know,
(11:41):
just like modernize the lyrics in some way. But we're
denied by Charles and Norman, who sort of again were
the only credited composer and songwriter for the song at
the time, but they ended up doing sort of the
straightforward lyrical cover of the song and really updating it
making it sound super fresh. I mean, it still sounds
super fresh, as you know, it's still sound it's like
an extremely timeless kind of take on this once soft
(12:04):
rock then sort of like jazzy soul song and then
you know, now this kind of like break beat hip
hop like moment from from nineteen ninety six.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
Yeah, it's fantastic. It's funny that they don't really depart
from the original arrangement much. You know, they don't add
any any rapping, any interludes like that. Yeah, it's pretty
much singing the song straight with, like you said, the
original words. The main revision is the way she pronounces boy.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
And one time.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
Yes, one time is great. I mean there's a lot
of inventive touches, the one time and the cinar, yeah,
which is really kind of fantastic. It's gotta be my
favorite nineties hip hop sitar moment.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Yeah, I do find myself when I'm listening to the ROBERTA.
Flack version, like in my head adding the one time.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
It definitely sounds Yes, it always sounds a little off
without the one Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
I'm like, it's kind of you know how the song
was always meant to be me and Donnie Hathaway in
the back.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
To Yeah, you know, like White Cup should have been
on stage with don McClain when you were singing, just
going one time after each chorus. But it's well because
that's really the only part of the song that is
a detail that says, By the way, this singer is
in a group and they're a hip hop.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
There are other members in this group. Don't forget they.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
Do not do covers of seventy soul songs as their
main musical formula.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Yeah, I really love Lauren's vocal performance on the song,
and like you said, like it does feel so much
like this like launching of what we would hear from
her as a solo artist. It feels so connected to
not connected in a way where it feels like it
should be a miseducation, but definitely feels like that, like
step towards mis Education that we would get a few
years later, but I mean she definitely leans even more
(13:48):
into sort of that kind of like yearning element of it,
and like she's really really deep and like you could
really hear it in the way that she's singing this song,
which again is like a big part of a lot
of the songs on mis Education have so much of
that kind of tone of yearning that she channels so
well on this particular song.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
The fact that this song was, you know, a song
that was a huge pop hit for the Fujis, who
didn't really need a pop hit for a massive hit,
the score was going to be a blockbuster album for them,
even without killing me softly.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Oh yeah, I mean Ready or Not Alone?
Speaker 3 (14:19):
Yeah, absolute family Business. Yeah, that's the killer on that album.
I could never understand why that never became any kind
of hit, never seemed to get enough airplay. But Family Business,
that to me is like that is the Fuji song. Yeah,
my favorite of favorites.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
Yeah, and I mean again, this version becomes a number
one hit when's the Grammy, It like ends up becoming
sort of no in no way sort of even like
on a different level than the Bird of black version,
which again was such a monster of its own hit
in its own time. And then we have another version
that completely again like reinvents it, remakes it and like
(14:56):
is in its own way in the mid nineties subdly
this number one Grammy winning hit.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
At that time.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
Yeah, and a hit that never goes away. Yeah, It's
always everywhere, it always fits in, it never sounds stated.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
Are there other songs like that where they have sort
of like that kind of first number one sort of run.
I guess like that occurred and then kind of comes
back as a cover version that ends up being successful.
Speaker 3 (15:22):
Example comes to mind is Always on My Mind by
the Pet Shop Boys, Yeah, which was huge hit for Elvis,
just as a sort of you know, vagacy ballad.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
And then a much bigger hit, the Country version by
Willie Nelson, which seemed like it was always going to
be a definite version. And then this totally crazy, hyper
high energy eighties pop disco version by the Pet Shop Boys,
And I love how strange it is that it is
the same song. They're not messing with the arrangement. It's
like killing me softly. But every version has such a
(15:54):
different mood and without changing anything. Fundamental or structural about
the song. They just make it feel completely different. Yeah,
So I don't even think of that as a cover.
They're just like different hit versions.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Yeah, I guess it also reminded me because we had
talked about this song very recently, was the first cut
of The Deepest as like another sort of like having
sort of like the Cat Stevens than Rod Stewart than
Cheryl Crowe versions kind of existed and being so faithful to,
you know, the original and like what the original song
sounds like, but finding kind of their own pockets of
(16:27):
what that song could be or kind of pulling out
different emotions.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
From the lyrics.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
Yeah. Absolutely, Yeah, it's wild when that happens, and when
a song can have another life for two different singers
where it's not a one shot in either career. And
with Killing Me Softly, Lauren Hill was already a star
on the hip hop level, already about to break out.
The Fuji's were absolutely going to break out with pop
with this. Withbird of Flack, it was one hit among
(16:53):
many for her. Yeah, it's funny that it's a song
that is so distinctive in both their catalogs. Yeah, but
definitely a song that is part of their story. Yeah,
a long story.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
Yeah, added to so much of their stories, and not
even just like built the story, but kind of like
added like a new chapter to already who they were
or who.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
They were becoming at those times.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
Do you have a favorite sort of other fujis or
Lauren Hill vocal moment or song?
Speaker 3 (17:19):
It's well because for her soul vocals, I mean, she
has such a distinctive voice, whether she's rapping or singing. Yeah,
and there's really nothing else like it. And that was
always wild with Killing Me Softly, such a familiar song
that she puts such an original twist on without changing melody,
without changing the words, just because the tone of her voice,
like you said, so yearning. I love when she raps
(17:41):
and does that in her voice. Her vocal on Lost Ones, Yeah,
is just such a phenomenal vocal. She's rapping, not singing,
but that same kind of yearning is in it, even
though she's talking very tough. It's not a yearning lyric,
but you can hear that yearning in her voice in
that song.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Yeah, I'm always partial to the yearning song. So I'm
a big fan of X Factor by her, which again
similar kind of those similar like family of you know,
vocal performances from her that that Killing Me Softly.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Kind of has.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
But I just I think that that is just one
of her her best office another one that you know,
even in sample form, has had many, many different lives
and covers. You know, ifyonce has covered a hit, drake
A sampled it like it's you know, has sort of
these different kind of resurgences over I mean, I guess,
especially in the last ten years of existing, it is amazing.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
Miseducation of Learn Hill has to be one of the
most front loaded albums of all time. Weld also that
the Fuji's version very anomalous for a hip hop group
in the nineties, very serious hip hop group with a
lot of underground ties. A hit like this didn't affect
their credibility in any way. Yeah, they didn't complain about
(18:48):
it the way you know that an artist is going
to often complain about their pop breakthrough hit. This just
really seemed to fit every audience. It really seemed to connect,
is the real thing.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
Yeah, did you say which one you liked the more,
ROBERTA Flack or the Fujis.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
Now I was avoiding the question because it's so painful,
the push come to shove, The Lauren Hill version, the
Fuji's version, Yeah, that's the one that's when I think
of the song. I think of that version yearning in
her voice. She is so yearning. ROBERTA. Flack is so calm.
They're both so powerful in that. And yet the Lauren
Hill version with again that one time, which really is
(19:26):
a canonical part of the song for me.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Yeah, And what are some other versions that you've heard
over the years are really like, Like, I recently heard Jenny
from Black Pink cover it and I loved her take
on the song as well.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
It's so good. It's such an odd pick.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Yeah, I think that that was such a great version.
It becomes such a standard for a lot of singers
to go to this song because it is such a
great vocal song. And you know, I feel like American Idol,
and you know, a lot of singing competitions, a lot
of singers gravitate towards it.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
It's just amazing a song that is so powerful about
the act of listening to music.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Next, we'll be joined by Rolling Stone senior writer David Brown.
We are joining now by Rolling Stone senior writer David Brown.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
David, thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (20:11):
Thanks for having me here. Glad to be thank David.
Thanks Robing Brittany.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
I mean, we both answered the very difficult choice of
which version of Killing Me.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
Softly is your favorite? So I want to know your
your answer.
Speaker 5 (20:26):
My favorite is still the ROBERTA. Flack original. It's probably
because it's the first one I heard. Just maybe not
the case with some people, but I remember, I mean
I loved it at the time, even though it was
like this little kid and you know, quote unquote soft
rock type songs didn't work usually my thing. Most of
us didn't know the backstory behind any of it. It
was just this like beautiful flowing song on the radio.
(20:48):
That wordless part she sings in it is just transcendent.
It just like brings it up to another level. You
weren't sure which exactly she was singing about. But yeah,
that's the one I still listened to, even though the Fuji's.
Speaker 4 (21:01):
Is great, but you know, just the early one was
the one that connected with me.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
And when did you hear the original version, the Lori
Liberman version.
Speaker 4 (21:08):
Oh, probably not till many years later.
Speaker 5 (21:10):
Yeah, that record, which which was the first version of
it of that song, you know, kind of came and went.
It wasn't a hit or anything. And so even back
then and back in the day, Lorid Liberman was a
cult figure at best. You know, you just never heard
her songs at all on the radio. You might see
the records in the record store, but like, oh, who's
that you know or another singer songwriter. So it wasn't
(21:32):
until many years later, when you know, YouTube or whatever
where things were more accessible. I heard it and I
was like, oh, wow, like this is you can see
how reverta Flak re arranged it, but the essence of
the song is kind of all there. I thought it
was really fascinating. And then, of course we all many
years as the years went on, we all learned the
whole backstory with Lourie Lieberman, which is a whole other
(21:52):
fascinating thing that, like I said, we didn't know at
the time.
Speaker 4 (21:54):
It came out later.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Yeah, what do you sort of remember kind of like
how that exploded, especially in the late nineties with with
Lori and the other songwriters.
Speaker 5 (22:02):
Yeah, I mean I vaguely remember reading an interview with
her with Lori Liberman sometime in the late nineties.
Speaker 4 (22:08):
I think it was after the Fuji's version.
Speaker 5 (22:10):
So I think by then we all knew it was
about Don McClain, but you know, her going into more
detail about her relationship with gimbal and Fox. And then
around the same time, Charles Fox, who Don McLean or
threatened to sue Don mcclin for putting on his website
that he was the inspiration for that song. That's when
(22:31):
I really all started coming out, I think, And.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Can you tell us little bit more about the lawsuit
that happened with Don.
Speaker 4 (22:36):
I think it was just a threat.
Speaker 5 (22:38):
Yeah, And again I think it was again after the
Fujis and he put something on his website that he
was the inspiration for the song, and it's actually still
there to some extent on his site. I just checked
it today. He has a little chronological kind of timeline
and there's a photo of him with Lori Liberman ten
twenty years ago hanging out. I think the songwriters at
the time, we're trying to rewrite history a bit and
(22:59):
kind of write out the fact that he inspired Lorie Lieberman,
which would then sort of write her out of the
story because she had sort of given an interview dissing them.
So it seemed like it was maybe their way of
trying to get back at him by having Don McLean
take the thing off his website, and so they threatened.
One of them threatened the lawsuit, and Don McLean pulled
(23:20):
out this article from the Daily News from nineteen seventy
three in which Lord Lieberman has asked, oh, you know
who's this about, and she says Don McLean, I saw
him at the Troubert in Los Angeles last year, blah
blah blah, and then I think the whole thing just
kind of went away. But you know, I was fascinated
with the I guess what we'd call the umbrella term
(23:42):
of soft rock, which would be like singer songwriters and
yacht rock, because the more you dig into some of
this stuff, you realize that sometimes neither the singers nor
the songs, or that laid back and mellow and it's like, oh,
that troubadour who was nice not to be a heroin
at or some complete neuronic mess, or you know, you're
(24:04):
listening to a yacht rock song like Ride like the
Wind and it's like it's moving along vialuce you read
the lyrics, Oh, it's kind of like a gangster thing
about a guy within the run with the gun and
the crime the Steel. There's steely dance songs. Of course,
they're about drug dealers and stuff. A soft rock is
always so soft and mellow and and so there's something
(24:26):
about this whole saga of killing me softly that is
part of that tradition of like, oh, it's a really
pretty song, and it is. It's a beautiful song, and
then you learn more about it and you're like, oh, boy,
that is one tangled, often twisted teal.
Speaker 4 (24:41):
And you guys probably discuss the Fuji's version.
Speaker 5 (24:43):
I imagine, like how they wanted to rewrite it and
all that, and that was another you know, past thing
twist and they weren't allowed to change the lyrics. It's
a song that seems so kind of a gorgeous pop
song that has this fraud history in the great tradition
of the dark side of soft. I should do of
(25:07):
Spotify playlist. You know what's also so interesting about this
song is I went back and listened to so many
of the covers and there's a whole slew of them.
Nancy Sinatra and Johnny Mathis and Perry Como, Anne Murray
Bastile just did it like right like last year and
plugged thing, and nobody messes with it. I mean the
(25:29):
Fuji's had to be you know, they arrange slightly, but
it's a song that people are very reverent about really,
like you know, there's no kitschy ironic covers that I've
come across. Maybe you guys have, but it seems like
every version of it is very faithful, adheres to the
kind of arrangement and the spirit of it. You know,
even if people change his song to her song. In
(25:52):
some cases, that's about the biggest tweak, and I think
it shows how that song has not just endured in
the culture, but it's I don't want to call it sacred,
that's too much, but I mean it's it's something that
is a very meaningful song to lots of people, all
about Don McLean, So go figure.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
His second biggest impact.
Speaker 5 (26:16):
And isn't it funny too? That was inspired but not
just seeing him, but not by American Pie, but like
a deep cut on the American Pie album called Empty Chairs,
which is like and that was one of the first
albums in my record collection. I have to say American Pie,
so I know that song.
Speaker 3 (26:32):
Well, the Don McLean song American pie that we all
know inspired by Buddy Holly, and that this thing of
songs about listening to songs.
Speaker 5 (26:42):
Yeah, songs, yes, yes, which I guess is part of
the backstory. And gimbal and Fox had some idea right
of like, oh, let's let's write a song about how
music can inspire you, and she was like, oh wait. Loyally,
by coincidence, I saw Don McLean and.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
To the point of like the reverence to the original,
it is so fascinating with the fuji's wanting to change it,
they still create something that is that feels like such
a continuation of the story and of the song and
how it had been in previous incarnations. But do you
have any kind of thoughts on why people have sort
of in later years and more recently still kind of
maintained that and sort of maintained that idea of the
(27:21):
song in its purest form when they cover it.
Speaker 5 (27:23):
I think the fact that it's even taking Don McLean
out of it and whatever's feeling once feelings are about
Don McClain.
Speaker 4 (27:29):
I think this.
Speaker 5 (27:30):
Idea of seeing a performer hearing a song and having
it so affect you and move you is a universal
enduring the sentiment, you know, and I think that sort
of transcends generations and genres. I think that must be
an aspect of it. It's kind of a standard. I mean,
it's an interesting structure. It has a verse chorus structure,
(27:51):
but it plays around with that a little bit. I mean,
I was thought that it was so striking to people
when the Fuji's version came out, because there wasn't anything
quite like that at the time on the radio.
Speaker 3 (28:01):
It's funny that her romantic songs like were the ones
that didn't necessarily capture that quality in her voice quite
as much as this one did.
Speaker 4 (28:10):
Interesting, that's a good point.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
The first time I ever saw your face, that's you know,
Brittany was talking about that. That's her favorite ROBERTA Flex.
Speaker 4 (28:17):
Yeah, yeah, Yeah.
Speaker 5 (28:18):
What's fascinating is that I grew to love that song
when I got older, and you look back and like
the fact that that song was like a big pop hit.
Speaker 4 (28:27):
You know, it was in a movie and that helped.
Speaker 5 (28:29):
But I mean it's so like subdude and slow and
like you know, it's it's got all the space in it,
and it's it's kind of remarkable that that was like
a top ten or whatever hit at the time.
Speaker 4 (28:44):
It's kind of a miracle.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
Yeah, and so repetitive verse for there's no chorus, there's
no bridge. It structured like a folk song way.
Speaker 5 (28:52):
It's just this slow, simmery thing all the way through it.
And it was like I said, it didn't hit me
at first, but I mean it when it did, it
was like, Wow, this is really hypnotic, and you really
just sit down and listen to that thing over.
Speaker 4 (29:04):
And over again. And the other thing.
Speaker 5 (29:05):
Maybe you guys already talked to all those other songs
that gimbal and Fox wrote, like TV theme song, like
Happy Days, wonder Woman, Vernon Shirley. It's like those guys
wrote killing Me Softly.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
It's one of bey On killing Me Softly. Their second
most famous lyric is love Exciting and new Come be
Expecting You, and.
Speaker 4 (29:25):
The other one wonder Woman. Yeah, that's another catchy lyric
of this.
Speaker 5 (29:30):
Yeah, and I Got a Name by Jim Croch, which
is actually a great song too.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
That's one of my favorite Jim Croch songs. It blew
my mind that that was their song and not Jim Crochy's,
which is a compliment to their songwriting.
Speaker 4 (29:41):
Right right, as well as to him.
Speaker 5 (29:42):
They were real chameleons. I mean, I'll say that about them,
and they could just adapt to whatever. You gotta write
a TV theme, Oh good, you gotta write a kind
of singer songwriter song. Okay, we'll do that gimbal translated,
you know, golf Medpanima lyrics. I mean, it was just
like these were kind of old school record business guys
who are like, you do what you to do and
you adapt to your times. It's kind of a rarity
(30:03):
now think in the business and people to do that.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
It was the Tim Panlly sort of tradition where you know,
like absolutely gets done.
Speaker 4 (30:10):
Absolutely, there's work to do, and you do the work
and you don't worry if it's cool or not.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
Thank you so much, David, Thank you.
Speaker 4 (30:19):
Thanks guys. Is always a blast, real joy talking to always.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
Thanks so much for listening to Rolling Stones five hundred
Greatest Songs. This podcast is brought to you by Rolling
Stone and iHeartMedia. Written hosted by me Britney Spanis and
Rob Sheffield. Executive produced by Gus Winner, Jason Fine, Alex Dale,
and Christian Horde, and produced by Jesse Cannon, with music
supervision by Eric Seiler.
Welcome to five hundred Greatest Songs, a podcast based on
Rolling Stones hugely popular, influential, and sometimes controversialist.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
I'm Britney Spanos and I'm Rob Sheffield.
Speaker 3 (00:11):
We're here to shed light on the greatest songs ever
made and discover what makes them so great. This week,
we're going into Killing Me Softly.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
This is the only song on the list that has
two different versions that are on the list. The Roberta
nineteen seventy three version is at number two hundred and
seventy three and the Fuji's nineteen ninety six version is
at number three hundred and fifty nine. Both were Grammy
winning number one hits, massive during their times of release
and both ended up making the list.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
Amazing and two very emotional versions of a very emotional song.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Yeah, and obviously there's a lot of I feel like
a lot of people always attribute to roberta Flax version
being the first. I kind of wanted to get into
the story behind the making of Killing Me Softly with
his song, which is it?
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Like I was reading about it, I.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Was like, this is so kind of crazy, going back
to the original and sort of the controversy over the
lyrics and the writing credits over the years, but the
original version came out a year prior to A Bird
of Flax, which was Lori Lieberman who was nineteen when
she first wrote it. And she wrote it actually during
a Don McLean concert and was watching him perform the
ballad empty Chairs and was just like so moved by
(01:24):
it that she started writing on her napkin during the show,
this song that's basically about Don McLean singing this like
heart wrenching ballad.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
It was like he found her letters and read each
one out of loud. Lori Lieberman's version, like you said,
that's a whole amazing story.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Yeah, and it's I mean that version is very very
traditionally like soft rock. And it is crazy how many
lives this song has lived, just even sonically, I mean,
even by the standards of covers and how covers can
have different lives. I mean, that's something that we've covered
so much that we see constantly. It is so wild,
how desparate each version of this song has been. Specifically
(02:02):
these like three main you know, tent pole versions of
killing Me Softly that existed.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
And Laurie Lieberman's version. How does it sound to you
compared to the Roberta Flag version that became so massive.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
It's so much more understated and like subdued. Like Roberta's
kind of has this like, I think, like Laurie's almost
sounds closer to the Lauren Hill sort of vocal of
like that sort of like like kind of desperation and sadness,
and Roberta's feels like almost like a little bit there's
this sort of like jazziness and like upbeatness. I guess
just because she lifts the song a little bit more
than Laurie's version, which is again just like much more
(02:35):
like stripped down and very very classic like seventies soft
rock version.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
Funny and so obscure. It's so funny that a song
with two enormously famous versions and the one by the
author the original is barely known at all. Yeah, it's comparable,
I guess in that way too, Betty Davis, A is
a song that you know, Jackie DeShannon recorded years before
it was a hit. But nobody knows that Jackie desh
in seventies soft rock version, Yeah, they know the eighties
(03:03):
Kim Carnes synth version.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Very similar story with Killing Me Softly.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Yeah, And I mean even Lori isn't credited on the
both the ROBERTA. Flack and the Fuji's version. The original
song was composed by Charles Fox, who was actually most notable,
which I love learning this. He did a lot of
the like Sunshine pop scores for TV shows in the seventies,
like The Love Boat, and he did the original music
for Monday Night Football.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
And she co wrote the.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Lyrics with Norman Gamble, who was, you know, a songwriter
at the time, and he was doing a lot of
movie themes love Oscar Nominde movie themes. So it's the
three of them that had worked on this song originally
and worked on her first album and work sort of
a songwriting trio together and had a big falling out.
Norman and Laurie were dating for a minute while he
(03:49):
was married. They like fell out by the end of
the seventies and then by the nineties. The craziest part
of it was that Norman and Charles ended up basically
denying a story that they had been saying for years
of the donal Clean origin of this, like the donal
Clean concert, how Laurie was inspired by it and basically
tried to erase her from the entire history of the
song that wouldn't exist without her.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
Yeah, very strange how this story turned. For the first
twenty five years after ROBERTA. Flax's version became a hit,
there was no dispute, no controversy about the origin story
of Killing Me Softly. It was a very famous origin story.
Everybody knew that the song had been written about Don
McLean seeing him live, and everybody agreed on the story
(04:33):
of how this song came to be. Yeah, and then
in the nineties, legal disputes completely changed that, and yes,
the story completely changed about the authorship of the song.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
So I want to make sure that we give our
proper credit to Laurie Lieberman, who, of course, again this
great song that has lived a million and one amazing lives,
and I'm sure we'll have another several one hundred more
in the future. And she's so much the origin of
this and was essentially almost erased from the history of
the song, and you know, has been in more recent
years doing more interviews and talking about it and kind
(05:07):
of reclaiming a lot of that legacy, which I think
is great because she should obviously be given her proper
due for writing this, Like brilliantly devastating and gorgeous song
that has had you know, many beautiful covers again that
exist on our list.
Speaker 3 (05:21):
Now, Yeah, it's hard to think of another song that
famous with such a disputed origin story and that the
different sides just do not agree. Closest thing I could
think of is Wider Shade of Pale. But they both
agree who did what, they argue over what constitutes songwriting.
So even though the writers of Wider Shade of Pale
have been in court for decades and will be for decades,
(05:44):
there's still no dispute over who did what whereas this song,
it's an argument that will never be settled.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Yeah, And of course, the Laura Lieberman version that had
come out, she released it as a single on her
first album, and it was released into the world in
its first version by her, and it was actually a
Roberta flat hearing it while she was on an airplane
for the first time where she heard the song in
sort of like the in flight music, and that kind
of spurred this like couple of years that she was
really obsessed with this song and covering it and like
(06:13):
really really wanting to record it and playing it and
you know, just kind of being in love with this
version that she had heard on a flight.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
ROBERTA. Flack was on such a role. She really created
her own pop style with this super calm, super jazzy,
but very understated soul that was very pop, very torchy,
and she did it without any kind of historyonics. It's
funny that in a song like killing Me Softly or
(06:42):
any of her massive hits, really the first time ever
I Saw Your Face is another great example where she
takes this Celtic folk song by You and McCall and
turns it into completely different song that's all her own,
this real soul soliloquy yeah, and her seventy soul sound.
There was nobody else who's sounded quite like it and
had that smooth but super emotional tone, and she just
(07:04):
really brought that home with killing Me Softly.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
And the origin of her even recording it I loved,
which was that she was touring with Quincy Jones at
the time and came out for her encore and then
she needed one more song, and she decided to sing
the song that she had covered a few times before
and had wanted to record and just didn't like the
original kind of version of the recording that she had done,
and Quincy was just like, you can't keep singing the
song if you're just not gonna release it, And then
(07:29):
she did and it became a number one hit. It
was number one for five weeks. It wanted Grammy, it
was you know, it was just like a massive moment
for Roberta that you know has lived on in it
in that form for many many generations and years. I mean,
it's just like her voice sounds incredible on it, and
it's just like absolutely gorgeous and kind of just an
instant classic.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
Really, it's her own distinctive sound. What are some of
your favorites from her great seventies.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Run Ooh, I mean I think like the first time
I ever saw your face was like it's that's like
a big one for me, Like, I love, love love
that one.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
That's like a I love her voice on that one
so much.
Speaker 4 (08:06):
It's amazing.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
Yeah, it builds as it repeats, Yeah, and she really
underplays it in a really beautiful and emotional way. My
favorite is with Donnie Hathaway, where is the Love?
Speaker 5 (08:17):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (08:17):
What a song? Love hearing those two voices together a
real like archetypal seventies R and B duo.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
And isn't Donnie singing background too on Killing Me Softly?
Speaker 2 (08:26):
As well?
Speaker 4 (08:26):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (08:26):
Yes, their voices connect in so many amazing ways. Where's
the Love is my sentimental favorite. Yeah, they both have
the same question, where is the love? Neither of them knows.
They keep asking each other through the song. As far
as we know, this conversation has been going on for
hours before they turned on the tape recorder and kept
going for hours. But she had that super suave sort
(08:50):
of sound. Yeah, that was perfect for a song like
Killing Me Softly, which is very emotional and very uh,
very confessional.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Yeah, and you know, even just like her version, especially
comparing it to the original version, and just especially because
they came out only only a couple of years in
between each other. You know, Roberta is just kind of
she makes it like a little bit, you know, a
little bit faster of a song, and she adds sort
of like all these kind of She's so classically trained,
so you know, all these elements of both, you know,
(09:22):
her her own kind of classical and jazz training as
a musician kind of brought into this. But originally was
just a very kind of standard classic soft rock moment
and makes it this like impeccable R and B sound.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
It's just like really stunning.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
Yes, of course, two decades later the song sort of
it has a couple of revivals. One there's like a
like a club version of roberta Flax version that ends
up sort of you know, having a bit of a
moment in the mid nineties. And of course the Fujis recorded
for the Score and this was their sophomore album, a big,
big breakthrough for the band, and it is I mean
(09:58):
just like again, a totally different story launches.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
With the Fuji's cover of Killing Me Softly.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
Which version were you into first?
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Fujis for sure, both like the Fujis and Lauren Hill
as a solo artist. It was just like inescapable in
the nineties, like that was just like something that not
even just like hearing on the radio, like you were
just like hearing constantly like out and about that was
like music that very much soundtracked, you know, every summer
and was just.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Like hard to escape.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
So I feel like that song was one that I
heard a lot and was the first time I'd ever
heard that song, and then was very like surprised even
to hear the Bird of Flack version I think probably
later in high school college sometime sometime later, but was
shocked to kind of hear this other version of the
song that I just kind of assumed just belonged to
(10:45):
Lauren Hill and her voice and had been hers for
the entirety of its life.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
Yeah, and such a departure for the fujis Yeah really
wild that you know? The score was absolutely perfect album, Yeah,
stacked from end to end and killing Me Softly sounded
like nothing else on the album. It sounded more like
what Lauren Hill ended up doing first, Yeah solo album, Miseducation,
(11:10):
But you know, it's basically Lauren Hill's solo as an
R and B singer, which is very different from what
she's doing what the group is doing all through the
rest of the album.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
Yeah, And this the original idea for even covering the
song came from Prase and the group. They were kind
of inspired by a tribe called Quest and sort of
the breakbeat production that tribe had become very known for,
and so they wanted to do their own take on it,
and they actually wanted to change the lyrics at first,
and they wanted to make it sort of a song
about like anti poverty, anti drugs, sort of you know,
(11:41):
just like modernize the lyrics in some way. But we're
denied by Charles and Norman, who sort of again were
the only credited composer and songwriter for the song at
the time, but they ended up doing sort of the
straightforward lyrical cover of the song and really updating it
making it sound super fresh. I mean, it still sounds
super fresh, as you know, it's still sound it's like
an extremely timeless kind of take on this once soft
(12:04):
rock then sort of like jazzy soul song and then
you know, now this kind of like break beat hip
hop like moment from from nineteen ninety six.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
Yeah, it's fantastic. It's funny that they don't really depart
from the original arrangement much. You know, they don't add
any any rapping, any interludes like that. Yeah, it's pretty
much singing the song straight with, like you said, the
original words. The main revision is the way she pronounces boy.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
And one time.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
Yes, one time is great. I mean there's a lot
of inventive touches, the one time and the cinar, yeah,
which is really kind of fantastic. It's gotta be my
favorite nineties hip hop sitar moment.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Yeah, I do find myself when I'm listening to the ROBERTA.
Flack version, like in my head adding the one time.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
It definitely sounds Yes, it always sounds a little off
without the one Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
I'm like, it's kind of you know how the song
was always meant to be me and Donnie Hathaway in
the back.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
To Yeah, you know, like White Cup should have been
on stage with don McClain when you were singing, just
going one time after each chorus. But it's well because
that's really the only part of the song that is
a detail that says, By the way, this singer is
in a group and they're a hip hop.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
There are other members in this group. Don't forget they.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
Do not do covers of seventy soul songs as their
main musical formula.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Yeah, I really love Lauren's vocal performance on the song,
and like you said, like it does feel so much
like this like launching of what we would hear from
her as a solo artist. It feels so connected to
not connected in a way where it feels like it
should be a miseducation, but definitely feels like that, like
step towards mis Education that we would get a few
years later, but I mean she definitely leans even more
(13:48):
into sort of that kind of like yearning element of it,
and like she's really really deep and like you could
really hear it in the way that she's singing this song,
which again is like a big part of a lot
of the songs on mis Education have so much of
that kind of tone of yearning that she channels so
well on this particular song.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
The fact that this song was, you know, a song
that was a huge pop hit for the Fujis, who
didn't really need a pop hit for a massive hit,
the score was going to be a blockbuster album for them,
even without killing me softly.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Oh yeah, I mean Ready or Not Alone?
Speaker 3 (14:19):
Yeah, absolute family Business. Yeah, that's the killer on that album.
I could never understand why that never became any kind
of hit, never seemed to get enough airplay. But Family Business,
that to me is like that is the Fuji song. Yeah,
my favorite of favorites.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
Yeah, and I mean again, this version becomes a number
one hit when's the Grammy, It like ends up becoming
sort of no in no way sort of even like
on a different level than the Bird of black version,
which again was such a monster of its own hit
in its own time. And then we have another version
that completely again like reinvents it, remakes it and like
(14:56):
is in its own way in the mid nineties subdly
this number one Grammy winning hit.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
At that time.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
Yeah, and a hit that never goes away. Yeah, It's
always everywhere, it always fits in, it never sounds stated.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
Are there other songs like that where they have sort
of like that kind of first number one sort of run.
I guess like that occurred and then kind of comes
back as a cover version that ends up being successful.
Speaker 3 (15:22):
Example comes to mind is Always on My Mind by
the Pet Shop Boys, Yeah, which was huge hit for Elvis,
just as a sort of you know, vagacy ballad.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
And then a much bigger hit, the Country version by
Willie Nelson, which seemed like it was always going to
be a definite version. And then this totally crazy, hyper
high energy eighties pop disco version by the Pet Shop Boys,
And I love how strange it is that it is
the same song. They're not messing with the arrangement. It's
like killing me softly. But every version has such a
(15:54):
different mood and without changing anything. Fundamental or structural about
the song. They just make it feel completely different. Yeah,
So I don't even think of that as a cover.
They're just like different hit versions.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Yeah, I guess it also reminded me because we had
talked about this song very recently, was the first cut
of The Deepest as like another sort of like having
sort of like the Cat Stevens than Rod Stewart than
Cheryl Crowe versions kind of existed and being so faithful to,
you know, the original and like what the original song
sounds like, but finding kind of their own pockets of
(16:27):
what that song could be or kind of pulling out
different emotions.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
From the lyrics.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
Yeah. Absolutely, Yeah, it's wild when that happens, and when
a song can have another life for two different singers
where it's not a one shot in either career. And
with Killing Me Softly, Lauren Hill was already a star
on the hip hop level, already about to break out.
The Fuji's were absolutely going to break out with pop
with this. Withbird of Flack, it was one hit among
(16:53):
many for her. Yeah, it's funny that it's a song
that is so distinctive in both their catalogs. Yeah, but
definitely a song that is part of their story. Yeah,
a long story.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
Yeah, added to so much of their stories, and not
even just like built the story, but kind of like
added like a new chapter to already who they were
or who.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
They were becoming at those times.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
Do you have a favorite sort of other fujis or
Lauren Hill vocal moment or song?
Speaker 3 (17:19):
It's well because for her soul vocals, I mean, she
has such a distinctive voice, whether she's rapping or singing. Yeah,
and there's really nothing else like it. And that was
always wild with Killing Me Softly, such a familiar song
that she puts such an original twist on without changing melody,
without changing the words, just because the tone of her voice,
like you said, so yearning. I love when she raps
(17:41):
and does that in her voice. Her vocal on Lost Ones, Yeah,
is just such a phenomenal vocal. She's rapping, not singing,
but that same kind of yearning is in it, even
though she's talking very tough. It's not a yearning lyric,
but you can hear that yearning in her voice in
that song.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Yeah, I'm always partial to the yearning song. So I'm
a big fan of X Factor by her, which again
similar kind of those similar like family of you know,
vocal performances from her that that Killing Me Softly.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Kind of has.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
But I just I think that that is just one
of her her best office another one that you know,
even in sample form, has had many, many different lives
and covers. You know, ifyonce has covered a hit, drake
A sampled it like it's you know, has sort of
these different kind of resurgences over I mean, I guess,
especially in the last ten years of existing, it is amazing.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
Miseducation of Learn Hill has to be one of the
most front loaded albums of all time. Weld also that
the Fuji's version very anomalous for a hip hop group
in the nineties, very serious hip hop group with a
lot of underground ties. A hit like this didn't affect
their credibility in any way. Yeah, they didn't complain about
(18:48):
it the way you know that an artist is going
to often complain about their pop breakthrough hit. This just
really seemed to fit every audience. It really seemed to connect,
is the real thing.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
Yeah, did you say which one you liked the more,
ROBERTA Flack or the Fujis.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
Now I was avoiding the question because it's so painful,
the push come to shove, The Lauren Hill version, the
Fuji's version, Yeah, that's the one that's when I think
of the song. I think of that version yearning in
her voice. She is so yearning. ROBERTA. Flack is so calm.
They're both so powerful in that. And yet the Lauren
Hill version with again that one time, which really is
(19:26):
a canonical part of the song for me.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Yeah, And what are some other versions that you've heard
over the years are really like, Like, I recently heard Jenny
from Black Pink cover it and I loved her take
on the song as well.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
It's so good. It's such an odd pick.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Yeah, I think that that was such a great version.
It becomes such a standard for a lot of singers
to go to this song because it is such a
great vocal song. And you know, I feel like American Idol,
and you know, a lot of singing competitions, a lot
of singers gravitate towards it.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
It's just amazing a song that is so powerful about
the act of listening to music.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Next, we'll be joined by Rolling Stone senior writer David Brown.
We are joining now by Rolling Stone senior writer David Brown.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
David, thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (20:11):
Thanks for having me here. Glad to be thank David.
Thanks Robing Brittany.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
I mean, we both answered the very difficult choice of
which version of Killing Me.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
Softly is your favorite? So I want to know your
your answer.
Speaker 5 (20:26):
My favorite is still the ROBERTA. Flack original. It's probably
because it's the first one I heard. Just maybe not
the case with some people, but I remember, I mean
I loved it at the time, even though it was
like this little kid and you know, quote unquote soft
rock type songs didn't work usually my thing. Most of
us didn't know the backstory behind any of it. It
was just this like beautiful flowing song on the radio.
(20:48):
That wordless part she sings in it is just transcendent.
It just like brings it up to another level. You
weren't sure which exactly she was singing about. But yeah,
that's the one I still listened to, even though the Fuji's.
Speaker 4 (21:01):
Is great, but you know, just the early one was
the one that connected with me.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
And when did you hear the original version, the Lori
Liberman version.
Speaker 4 (21:08):
Oh, probably not till many years later.
Speaker 5 (21:10):
Yeah, that record, which which was the first version of
it of that song, you know, kind of came and went.
It wasn't a hit or anything. And so even back
then and back in the day, Lorid Liberman was a
cult figure at best. You know, you just never heard
her songs at all on the radio. You might see
the records in the record store, but like, oh, who's
that you know or another singer songwriter. So it wasn't
(21:32):
until many years later, when you know, YouTube or whatever
where things were more accessible. I heard it and I
was like, oh, wow, like this is you can see
how reverta Flak re arranged it, but the essence of
the song is kind of all there. I thought it
was really fascinating. And then, of course we all many
years as the years went on, we all learned the
whole backstory with Lourie Lieberman, which is a whole other
(21:52):
fascinating thing that, like I said, we didn't know at
the time.
Speaker 4 (21:54):
It came out later.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Yeah, what do you sort of remember kind of like
how that exploded, especially in the late nineties with with
Lori and the other songwriters.
Speaker 5 (22:02):
Yeah, I mean I vaguely remember reading an interview with
her with Lori Liberman sometime in the late nineties.
Speaker 4 (22:08):
I think it was after the Fuji's version.
Speaker 5 (22:10):
So I think by then we all knew it was
about Don McClain, but you know, her going into more
detail about her relationship with gimbal and Fox. And then
around the same time, Charles Fox, who Don McLean or
threatened to sue Don mcclin for putting on his website
that he was the inspiration for that song. That's when
(22:31):
I really all started coming out, I think, And.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Can you tell us little bit more about the lawsuit
that happened with Don.
Speaker 4 (22:36):
I think it was just a threat.
Speaker 5 (22:38):
Yeah, And again I think it was again after the
Fujis and he put something on his website that he
was the inspiration for the song, and it's actually still
there to some extent on his site. I just checked
it today. He has a little chronological kind of timeline
and there's a photo of him with Lori Liberman ten
twenty years ago hanging out. I think the songwriters at
the time, we're trying to rewrite history a bit and
(22:59):
kind of write out the fact that he inspired Lorie Lieberman,
which would then sort of write her out of the
story because she had sort of given an interview dissing them.
So it seemed like it was maybe their way of
trying to get back at him by having Don McLean
take the thing off his website, and so they threatened.
One of them threatened the lawsuit, and Don McLean pulled
(23:20):
out this article from the Daily News from nineteen seventy
three in which Lord Lieberman has asked, oh, you know
who's this about, and she says Don McLean, I saw
him at the Troubert in Los Angeles last year, blah
blah blah, and then I think the whole thing just
kind of went away. But you know, I was fascinated
with the I guess what we'd call the umbrella term
(23:42):
of soft rock, which would be like singer songwriters and
yacht rock, because the more you dig into some of
this stuff, you realize that sometimes neither the singers nor
the songs, or that laid back and mellow and it's like, oh,
that troubadour who was nice not to be a heroin
at or some complete neuronic mess, or you know, you're
(24:04):
listening to a yacht rock song like Ride like the
Wind and it's like it's moving along vialuce you read
the lyrics, Oh, it's kind of like a gangster thing
about a guy within the run with the gun and
the crime the Steel. There's steely dance songs. Of course,
they're about drug dealers and stuff. A soft rock is
always so soft and mellow and and so there's something
(24:26):
about this whole saga of killing me softly that is
part of that tradition of like, oh, it's a really
pretty song, and it is. It's a beautiful song, and
then you learn more about it and you're like, oh, boy,
that is one tangled, often twisted teal.
Speaker 4 (24:41):
And you guys probably discuss the Fuji's version.
Speaker 5 (24:43):
I imagine, like how they wanted to rewrite it and
all that, and that was another you know, past thing
twist and they weren't allowed to change the lyrics. It's
a song that seems so kind of a gorgeous pop
song that has this fraud history in the great tradition
of the dark side of soft. I should do of
(25:07):
Spotify playlist. You know what's also so interesting about this
song is I went back and listened to so many
of the covers and there's a whole slew of them.
Nancy Sinatra and Johnny Mathis and Perry Como, Anne Murray
Bastile just did it like right like last year and
plugged thing, and nobody messes with it. I mean the
(25:29):
Fuji's had to be you know, they arrange slightly, but
it's a song that people are very reverent about really,
like you know, there's no kitschy ironic covers that I've
come across. Maybe you guys have, but it seems like
every version of it is very faithful, adheres to the
kind of arrangement and the spirit of it. You know,
even if people change his song to her song. In
(25:52):
some cases, that's about the biggest tweak, and I think
it shows how that song has not just endured in
the culture, but it's I don't want to call it sacred,
that's too much, but I mean it's it's something that
is a very meaningful song to lots of people, all
about Don McLean, So go figure.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
His second biggest impact.
Speaker 5 (26:16):
And isn't it funny too? That was inspired but not
just seeing him, but not by American Pie, but like
a deep cut on the American Pie album called Empty Chairs,
which is like and that was one of the first
albums in my record collection. I have to say American Pie,
so I know that song.
Speaker 3 (26:32):
Well, the Don McLean song American pie that we all
know inspired by Buddy Holly, and that this thing of
songs about listening to songs.
Speaker 5 (26:42):
Yeah, songs, yes, yes, which I guess is part of
the backstory. And gimbal and Fox had some idea right
of like, oh, let's let's write a song about how
music can inspire you, and she was like, oh wait. Loyally,
by coincidence, I saw Don McLean and.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
To the point of like the reverence to the original,
it is so fascinating with the fuji's wanting to change it,
they still create something that is that feels like such
a continuation of the story and of the song and
how it had been in previous incarnations. But do you
have any kind of thoughts on why people have sort
of in later years and more recently still kind of
maintained that and sort of maintained that idea of the
(27:21):
song in its purest form when they cover it.
Speaker 5 (27:23):
I think the fact that it's even taking Don McLean
out of it and whatever's feeling once feelings are about
Don McClain.
Speaker 4 (27:29):
I think this.
Speaker 5 (27:30):
Idea of seeing a performer hearing a song and having
it so affect you and move you is a universal
enduring the sentiment, you know, and I think that sort
of transcends generations and genres. I think that must be
an aspect of it. It's kind of a standard. I mean,
it's an interesting structure. It has a verse chorus structure,
(27:51):
but it plays around with that a little bit. I mean,
I was thought that it was so striking to people
when the Fuji's version came out, because there wasn't anything
quite like that at the time on the radio.
Speaker 3 (28:01):
It's funny that her romantic songs like were the ones
that didn't necessarily capture that quality in her voice quite
as much as this one did.
Speaker 4 (28:10):
Interesting, that's a good point.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
The first time I ever saw your face, that's you know,
Brittany was talking about that. That's her favorite ROBERTA Flex.
Speaker 4 (28:17):
Yeah, yeah, Yeah.
Speaker 5 (28:18):
What's fascinating is that I grew to love that song
when I got older, and you look back and like
the fact that that song was like a big pop hit.
Speaker 4 (28:27):
You know, it was in a movie and that helped.
Speaker 5 (28:29):
But I mean it's so like subdude and slow and
like you know, it's it's got all the space in it,
and it's it's kind of remarkable that that was like
a top ten or whatever hit at the time.
Speaker 4 (28:44):
It's kind of a miracle.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
Yeah, and so repetitive verse for there's no chorus, there's
no bridge. It structured like a folk song way.
Speaker 5 (28:52):
It's just this slow, simmery thing all the way through it.
And it was like I said, it didn't hit me
at first, but I mean it when it did, it
was like, Wow, this is really hypnotic, and you really
just sit down and listen to that thing over.
Speaker 4 (29:04):
And over again. And the other thing.
Speaker 5 (29:05):
Maybe you guys already talked to all those other songs
that gimbal and Fox wrote, like TV theme song, like
Happy Days, wonder Woman, Vernon Shirley. It's like those guys
wrote killing Me Softly.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
It's one of bey On killing Me Softly. Their second
most famous lyric is love Exciting and new Come be
Expecting You, and.
Speaker 4 (29:25):
The other one wonder Woman. Yeah, that's another catchy lyric
of this.
Speaker 5 (29:30):
Yeah, and I Got a Name by Jim Croch, which
is actually a great song too.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
That's one of my favorite Jim Croch songs. It blew
my mind that that was their song and not Jim Crochy's,
which is a compliment to their songwriting.
Speaker 4 (29:41):
Right right, as well as to him.
Speaker 5 (29:42):
They were real chameleons. I mean, I'll say that about them,
and they could just adapt to whatever. You gotta write
a TV theme, Oh good, you gotta write a kind
of singer songwriter song. Okay, we'll do that gimbal translated,
you know, golf Medpanima lyrics. I mean, it was just
like these were kind of old school record business guys
who are like, you do what you to do and
you adapt to your times. It's kind of a rarity
(30:03):
now think in the business and people to do that.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
It was the Tim Panlly sort of tradition where you know,
like absolutely gets done.
Speaker 4 (30:10):
Absolutely, there's work to do, and you do the work
and you don't worry if it's cool or not.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
Thank you so much, David, Thank you.
Speaker 4 (30:19):
Thanks guys. Is always a blast, real joy talking to always.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
Thanks so much for listening to Rolling Stones five hundred
Greatest Songs. This podcast is brought to you by Rolling
Stone and iHeartMedia. Written hosted by me Britney Spanis and
Rob Sheffield. Executive produced by Gus Winner, Jason Fine, Alex Dale,
and Christian Horde, and produced by Jesse Cannon, with music
supervision by Eric Seiler.
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