March 10, 2025 • 33 mins
Whenever I'm with Bella Freud, which isn't often enough, I always wish I could see more of her. Bella and I share the same social values and beliefs, and we pursued careers which are both fleeting but lasting: She is in fashion, and I'm in food. A meal is a moment, and an outfit changes daily. In our early years, Bella's father, Lucian Freud, came almost every day to The River Cafe. When with Bella, we were told never to interrupt, as this was their precious time. Now when Bella comes with her friends, I always wish I could whisk her away and have her all to myself. Today, on Table 4, I finally do.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
You were listening to Ruthie's Table four in partnership with Montclair.
Whenever I'm with Bella Freud, which isn't often enough, I
always wish I could see more of her. She's in
fashion and I'm in food. A meal is a moment,
and an outfit changes daily. Right now, I'm wearing Bella's
iconic nineteen seventy sweater. A few years ago she created
(00:22):
an Nemesis sweater for the River Cafe, and one of
my most treasured possessions is a Bella sweater, saying Bella, this,
Bella that. In our early years, Bella's father, Lucien Freud,
came almost every day to the River Cafe. When with Bella,
we were told never to interrupt, as this was their
precious time. Now, when Bella comes with her friends.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
I always wish I could whisk her.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Away and have her all to myself. Today, on Table four,
I finally am.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Thank you, Ruthie. It's so nice to have you here.
And it is true you did come with your dad.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Yeah, and sometimes he do risk me away when I'm
here and I don't know. I love it. You beckon
to me and say come here, and then we stand
behind a corner. Are they talking?
Speaker 2 (01:10):
What are they doing? In this world?
Speaker 1 (01:12):
We have to talk or just talk about each other.
What are your memories of your dad coming here?
Speaker 3 (01:16):
I remember we came here when it first started. We
jump in the car, and then he drove very fast,
terribly terrifyingly. I'm very good at kind of masquerading a calmness,
and some of it's learnt from sitting next to him
while he drove in this petrifying way. He'd drive very
(01:36):
fast towards something and then swerve suddenly, so then we'd
arrive and.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Lived another moment. Great food.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
And I remember he also used to come here with Lee.
Barry and Lee used to learn all about food from
eating out with Dad and coming here. And I always
remember this moment him saying, yes, the poach pears are
very good. It was so lovely.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
I remember one day he came and we had a
sign on the door because we were painting the restaurant.
We closed for lunch. We only opened for lunch, and
I said, listen, I'm really really sorry that you know
we're closed today, but I'll cook you something and he said,
I have a better idea. I'm going to take you
out to lunch, and yeah, he took me to Kensington
(02:23):
Place and we had lunch. He was just fantastic, you know,
spontaneous and kind and just caring and talking to me
and asking me about me, you know, and it was
very It was one of the great moments in my life.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Yeah, he was fun.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
He was such a good company and he made you
feel so special.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
I used to come in those trousers with Peter all
over them, and you know, he was great.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
It was exciting.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
It's very interesting you were saying that a lot of
your experience of eating with him was in restaurants.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
I remember going because I lived in the country and
i'd camp to London and all my sort of encounters
with him as I got to know him when I
was little were we used to go to marine IC's
when I was very small, and then he would take
us to this Greek restaurant in notting Hill. But it
(03:15):
was always a meeting to do with being in a
restaurant and the food. I would be quite nervous, so
the food was probably secondary, but that was the context.
And then you know, when i'd sit for him. When
I moved to London when I was sixteen, we'd work
(03:36):
and have this break and zoom out, go somewhere very
fast and come back. But then sometimes he would cook,
and he was a very good cook, and it was
very different from how my mother cooked. It was well,
I mean, we just didn't have very much food. And
when you asked me to be on this podcast, I
(03:58):
was like, oh my god, I didn't. In the sixties
and seventies, there wasn't much food around, and then my
mother she didn't have There was no food abundance. And
my overriding memory was the food we did have took
about a day or two, like it was lentils, it
was hippie food. There were no snacks, there was no
(04:23):
nothing to eat, and I was hungry quite a lot
of the time. So I have a kind of strange
attitude to I think. So let's go about your mum
in the sixties.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
She would have been hold.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
She was eighteen when I was born, so very young,
and she wasn't married and her parents didn't even know
she had children until me and my sister esther were
about I think I was four, and someone saw us
walking down the street and told her parents, who lived
in Ireland, and so it was very you know, she
(04:57):
had a that's tough, yeah, having to be have two children.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
But your father was an art involved it was.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
They lit up when I was two, and he wasn't
at all hands on or she made an effort to
make sure that we saw him. And he was always
very responsive as a father and very affectionate, and that was,
you know, kind of a lifeline, even though I don't
(05:25):
you know, she had to sort of take care of
us without his help or very little help. When I
was six, my mother decided that we would go and
live in Morocco. I think a lot of people were
going there and she thought, oh, my money will go
further there, we can have an interesting time. She was
(05:48):
interested in Soufiism and music and she was an amazing
person and very sound. Yeah, she was very courageous. So
we drove there.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
We drove from from from Tunbridge Wells to Mary care
or did she have another partner.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
There was this couple, this man and his wife. I
think anyway, she was sat in the back of this
van going crazy. Literally she didn't speak and he drove
and he was he was kind of really bad tempered
and stuff. I didn't really like. I was six when
we left, so she was four, and we drove and
(06:31):
the van kept breaking down. It was kind of.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
She took you out of school age six.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
Yeah, so I must have been at nursery so I'd
learned to read, so I had a few books and stuff,
and that was always a big thing for me. There
was a boat that you took and you landed in Morocco,
and I remember us throwing peach stones into the sea
and watching all these fish come and eat.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
All the fruit.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
And then when we arrived there, we moved around a lot.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
But the food was.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Interesting because in the square in Marrakesh there were these
these men who would sell little tin cups of spicy
broth with snails, and they were great. Threw you into
an advent. You must have been hungry. Yeah, what you
were eating, I mean not very many six year olds.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
I know, they were really good. I mean that's there
wasn't much going, you know. I loved those snails.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
But I love the food of Morocco.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
But as a six year olds had come from London
in a car that Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
I was talking to my sister esther before saying, do
you remember what we ate? You know, we didn't, and
then she remembered there used to be these stalls in
the main square and they sold this soup called bisara,
and it was most delicious thing. I just remember. It
was just incredible, this beige soup with a they'd pour
(08:08):
a tiny bit of olive oil and have a bit
of paprika, and it was it was just like it
was just like a kind of blood transfuture. It was,
and we loved it.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
It ap probably was, you know, because Ramadan you don't
eat at all, and then you just see when the
sun sets everybody, you know, because you've been fasting all day,
and it is the soups, isn't it. Yeah. I have
a very strong association with being in Marrakesh and Morocco
and soups.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
Yeah, they were really good. And then there would be
this kind of European breakfast, so my mother would sit
in a cafe and maybe with some friends and they'd
have this milky coffee and then croissants, I think, and
it was very dreamy those moments. And then I remember
(08:58):
something that I got a gum infection where I couldn't
eat anything and it was so agonizing. They also used
to sell in the square these little bottles of yogurt,
and one was white and one was fluorescent pink, and
that was the only thing I could eat because if
I even tasted a tiny bit of sponge cake, it
(09:20):
was like broken glass. And did you go to a dentist?
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
I've spent a lot of time in Marrifsh, but they
used to have a dentists and square that you could
actually sit on a blanket too.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Bold or whatever.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
And then you know that the vine with the storytellers
and fortune tellers.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
And I remember walking past sometimes and you'd see a
dentist place and there was no door and you'd just
hear people screaming. So I was quite keen to not go,
and I kind of developed a pain management where I
would just I would just internalize and go silent. Yeah,
(10:01):
that sort of stayed my whole life, really, but I
and so I remember this moment where I had my
first bite of toast with marmalade, and it was just
my mother used to eat toast with marmalade at breakfast,
and it was just like it was the most It
was just like a king's meal, I remember, And I've
(10:24):
been obsessed with toasts and marmalade my whole life. And
then you know a lot of the some of the
time we didn't have any food, and I remember we
went encamped by this lake in the country and there
was we had no food, and then this fisherman gave
us some fish and cooking it over a fire. And
so there would be periods where we just didn't really
(10:47):
have things, but somehow we always got something in the end.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
And do you think your mother did she herself not
care whether she ate or not, or do you think
she also wasn't aware or was she I think she
thought this would be okay, you know.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
I think you know, it wasn't very often that that happened,
that we literally there wasn't anything, and I remember there
was a lot of worry about God, we really haven't
got a single thing to eat. And then suddenly it
was like Jesus and the fish, you know, this fisherman
and we had this huge meal and it was all
(11:25):
really exciting. And people were very very kind in Morocco
as well, and they were kind to us, you know.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Yeah, you know, the museum tells you about culture, and
architecture tells you about culture, but that is also the
way people respond to food and sharing.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
And yeah, a generosity is to do I think.
Speaker 3 (11:46):
With culture, I know, it really is sort of strange
how you remember those moments to do with people, you know.
I remember this one time that we were traveling and
we were we'd got a lift on a donkey cart
and it was starting to get dark. The only thing
we had was someone had given us these fresh eggs,
(12:08):
and so we made a fire and then we put
these hot stones in the fire and tried to fry
eggs on them, and it was really exciting. But then
the eggs just slithered off immediately, and then it was
kind of worrying. It was getting dark. And then the
man who dropped us off came back and said, come
(12:28):
to our house. And we went to his house and
they had this wonderful food and we sat in the
garden and then we stayed and we I remember we
rolled up in carpets. They gave us carpets, and we
slept outside in the orchard and it was it was incredible.
It was so long ago, and I'll never forget.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Yeah, yeah, can you smell the food.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
There's a certain smell of Morocco that is like the
smell of sun touching the grass.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
And this is a kind of nomadic life. That you heard.
How long did it last?
Speaker 3 (13:05):
I think we were there for two years.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Two years.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Yeah, your sister wrote a book. Yeah, she wrote it
Hideous Kinkyou they made a.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Film of it.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
Yeah, they made a really good film. It was wonderful.
And yeah, Esthera wrote her first novel called Hideous Kinky
because we would get sort of quite bored, and hideous
kinky were our favorite words, and we just used to
charm them. So the adults, these young people sort of
(13:37):
in their early twenties, would be sitting around in the
cafes and me and Esta would just be chanting hideous kinky,
hideous kinky, and then we'd go faster and faster and
then slower and just.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Was your father in touch at all? Did yeah? Send
us things?
Speaker 3 (13:54):
And I remember we'd get a care package. Sometimes I'd
go to the post office for like a couple of
weeks before it would arrive, and then there might be
a mass bow. I remember there was a bar of
chocolate that I just ate before I got home. I
felt rather guilty about that.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
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(14:42):
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when did you come home?
Speaker 3 (14:55):
So? Then we came home in nineteen sixty nine and
we moved to Sussex, and Mum wanted us to go
to this Stiner school. I became obsessed with food, and
I would my friends would have all these cute lunches
and in like sandwiches and like special things. One girl
(15:18):
had tinned fruit in a little container, and I used
to just stare at them like a dog, and just
stare like and the first until they gave me some
of their food. And then I'd go and visit them,
and the first thing I'd say is.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Got any food? And then I would just eat anything.
Everything I could get. I would just and then I'd
have started having these terrible stomach aches. I'd lie under
the table just like me some pudding, so I'd be
in terrible pain, but I didn't want to miss any food,
(15:55):
but my mother would. I was talking to I was
remembering with esta the things that she made, and she
used to make these tuna fish souflet, which sounds awful,
but it was so good, sort of creamy.
Speaker 3 (16:13):
It was tasty. And my mother was perfectly sort of
adequate cook, but things didn't taste much like. She was
interested in health food, you know, beans that took like
a week.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
To silk them.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
And then Yea was Lucy in a success. It was
he the recognized painter at that time.
Speaker 3 (16:35):
That not really, I mean he there was very very
little anything, and it wasn't really until much later that
he became suddenly more known. And he was extremely private.
So we had these two years of moving and then
we moved in to this quite nice house and shared
(16:58):
where we were the lodge of this family, a father
with three daughters who then my mother and he started
a relationship and I really didn't like him. I got
on really badly with him, but he was a very
good cook. And we had this kind of nice place,
you know, we had our own rooms and it knew
(17:20):
about what age, so I was eleven. Yeah, they had
an arga and they had this argur cookbook, and I
started cooking and making things, and he would make really
delicious food and lasagna we'd never had lazagne, you know,
and hornbread, and so I got interested in other things,
(17:43):
and I learned how to cook stuff as well, and
I learned about taste and how much that mattered more
than anything, really, the sort of difference in food with
my mother, and then going to my father's I remember
he was very keen on oysters. When I was fourteen,
(18:05):
he took me to Wheelers and I thought, well, I'd
better have these oysters, and I hope I like them,
because if I don't like the oysters, maybe he will
be really disappointed in me. And then I loved the oysters,
and I was so happy.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
If you had snails and rocco, yeah, oysters, and you
were starting to cook, then food must have been a
part of your curiosity about life. Yeah, what, you were
ready to go on that adventure when you finished school?
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Did you finish school?
Speaker 3 (18:38):
No? I didn't. I left home when I was sixteen
and I moved to London and I shared a My
dad got me a flat that I shared with my
half sister Rose. I went to do my A levels
but I only I just dropped out and then I
started sitting for dads and that was the order in
(19:01):
my life. So everything revolved around that, and even though
my life was very chaotic and unmanageable, I would always
be there for him. He was thank God, you know
he It was like this reason I had to be,
you know, have some semblance of order and keep going
(19:23):
and not drop off the face of the earth in
a way.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
You began working in fashion. Was it when you started
thinking that clothes mattered?
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Do you think the.
Speaker 3 (19:37):
Earlier? I remember as a child thinking how much clothes mattered,
because people really sort of noticed you if you weren't
wearing normal clothes. And my mother, she dressed in a
sort of hippie where she was incredibly beautiful, but we
(19:58):
were looked down, and so I was conscious that we
were different and people like noticed us in a way
that sometimes just exhausting. And so I was aware that
certain clothes made me feel really great, Like what I'm
(20:19):
wearing today, this shirt tie and of v neck jumper.
That's really what I wanted. And we didn't have a
school uniform, so I longed for this order. I didn't
mind being turbulent within but I wanted some sort of
encasement so I didn't feel like I was going to well.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
Fashion as a shield itself. Yeah, it's a shield, it
can be. I mean, it is a bit like food,
and there is a relationship of how you identify yourself.
You know, we all need to wear clothes to keep
us warm, and we all need to eat to keep
us healthy. And yes, choices though involve a lot of
other decisions, because you can who you.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Want to be exactly.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
Because I started to notice that if I had clothes
on that I liked, I could feel much less self conscious.
I always remember this moment. I had this scoop neck
top on. I must have been eleven or ten the
mom had made with balloon sleeves, and I looked in
(21:23):
the mirror and thought, I really don't like this. I
want to shut up with a collar. And I'd go
to jumble cells and buy boys clothes and wear those.
And I really liked to be contained to feel safe.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
Well, as a designer, it's like you have someone's back.
Literally you're dressing them when you're protecting them with your clothes,
and you're imbuing them with all everything to bring out
their best qualities and.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
Sort of care for them.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
And then I would always notice the difference, especially like
with my father. He would when here working, sometimes we'd
go out and he'd just be in his painting clothes
and taxis wouldn't stop because they think he was a tramp.
And then he would if we went somewhere like Annabel's,
he'd put on a Huntsman suit and it was just
(22:17):
you know, Cinderellas, we'll go to the wall, you know.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
He he looked so good, and he looked I loved
the change.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
And so I've always been interested in that sort of
thing where you have one piece, like you have walking
down Portobello and the guys who'd have shops down there
or just hanging out in track suits with a tailored jacket,
and they just look so cool. And I love this
thing that a tailored jacket could give you this magic,
(22:48):
this fairy dust sprinkle. And I've always been kind of
obsessed with suits and uniforms, like how bus conductors dress
and used to dress information a uniform. When did you
actually start to brand?
Speaker 1 (23:05):
Yeah, so I started in nineteen ninety and I started
working from home, and because I didn't really have money
to pay anyone much.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
We would have lunch in the kitchen every day and
someone would cook. Sometimes I'd cook, because when I was
working for Vivian Westward, and I'd been living in Italy
before then and I moved back to London started working
for her, and I'd cook her lunch.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Do you know her? Had you know her before?
Speaker 3 (23:35):
I worked in her shop when I was a teen.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
About Vivian Westward, so that we know who.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
So, Vivian Westwood was an incredibly influential avant garde designer.
She was very much the designer of punk. She created
fashion from punk and designed things that people had never
seen before. And she had a shop in King's Road
and with her her partner Malcolm McLaren, who was the
(24:02):
manager of the Sex Pistoles, and she designed all the
clothes they wore, and they had these amazing clothes and
it was the first time I had experienced any sort
of agency as a person through wearing these clothes that
she designed. And suddenly people were like slightly intimidated and
(24:25):
it was really exciting.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
And what did you do with her?
Speaker 3 (24:29):
So I, first of all, I worked in her shop
when I was seventeen, and when I lived in Italy.
She was also working in Italy and she would come
stay with me in Rome sometimes and we became friends.
And then when I left Rome, i was studying fashion there.
I came back to London and then I worked as
(24:50):
her assistant and at that time we just worked from her.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
She teach you that she taught you that you and
her fashion is. Does it still influence you. It's different,
it's very different. But what she taught me was to
go beyond yourself whenever you possibly can, never give up really,
and it's that's what I learned from watching my father
(25:18):
work as well. If something goes wrong, you can't let
that stop. You have to work through something.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
When I work for Vivian, I learned everything I did,
all the different jobs, so production press, sort of working
on ideas and.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
What is the skill of being a fashion designed that
you have to We have chefs that have never been
to cooking school and we teach them life skills they learn.
You know, I was never taught Rose, my partner was
never taught. And I look in one on some of
the young people with their what they can do and
sometimes what they can't, and how when we have a
(25:54):
skill as a profession then you hell.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
Because Vivian she was self to and I think that
the real skill of a designer, the sort of kitchen
as it were, is to fit. Because Vivian didn't learn
how to make patterns, but she would make something work
through instinct and fitting and you know, I know what
(26:21):
to pull up the suppression where it will result in
the change of how it fits on a body. And
I think that's the most important thing. That you can
shape something literally and then it doesn't really matter what
it's made of or but if you have that kind
(26:41):
of recognizable way of editing something, people are drawn to that.
And then I sometimes it's so circumstantial because when I
was living in Rome, I met this woman who had
a knitting machine in her flat in a tower block.
So I used to go and visit her and started
(27:03):
designing knitwear just because that was something. And then I
was always interested in record covers and what people water
on protest marches, this kind of how one thing could
mean so much and say so much, and language was
always really important. I think as being a girl, you
(27:29):
don't have physical power, so you have to use your words.
And I was very keen to express my contempt for
a lot of things, and I honed it as much
as I could.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
The River Cafe Winter Said Lunch is now running from
Monday to Thursday. Reserve a booking at www. River cafet
co uk or give us a call. Would you like
to read the recipe for sea bass? Do you want
to tell me why you chose this recipe? But I
(28:09):
quite often cook dinner for myself just me. I sort
of prefer cooking just for myself. And it's sea bass
over potatoes, and I sort of mess about with it
a bit, but essentially feel free filets of sea bass,
cherry tomatoes, and I do as you say in the
recipe and squeeze out the juice, and then five hundred
(28:32):
grams of potatoes, some ba leaves and a lemon, and
then sometimes I put some olives in as well.
Speaker 3 (28:40):
So I love the.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
Thing that you say to do, which is bring the
potatoes to the boil till they're almost perfectly cooked but
not quite, and then slice them in thick slices, and
then drizzle a roasting.
Speaker 3 (28:54):
Tray with olive oil and cover the sliced potatoes and
tomato halves, and put the bas leaves on top. And
sometimes I put rosemary, because I love rosemary. Put the
sea bass filets on top and drizzle with olive oil
and roast for six minutes, and then pull it out
(29:14):
and put the lemon juice over and roast for another
six minutes. If there's some white wine, I'll put some
of that on. I mean, what I love about this
recipe is that it's there aren't too many ingredients, because
if I see too many, I just panic and then
I think, oh, I'll just have some toast. But this
(29:36):
is wonderful and it's nurtured me many a time.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
When you started out in the introduction about talking about
your podcast, well.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
It's call fashion Neurosis, and my guest like, in a way,
the way you talk about food, and it's a kind
of clue to someone's internal life. Fashion neurosis is someone's
clothing is their clue. It's the gateway. And some people
(30:04):
we talk a lot about clothes, and some people we
talk hardly at all. But also I've always been interested
in the stories in the fashion world that people never
hear about. I think it's very badly seen or it's
not really seen at all in the media. It's always
(30:25):
a certain way camp bitchy competitive, fairly facile, whereas the
people I've met in the fashion world are so resourceful
and remarkable, and there's a lot of real friendship and
you know, looking out for each other. It's so difficult
(30:46):
being criticized in the way that the cycle of fashion
sort of is just normal to do that. So my
guest lies on the couch, well, I thought, well, when
I was first figuring out how it would look, I
thought I need a prop and then I thought, Okay,
if they lie on the couch and I sit in
(31:07):
this chair, everyone will know it's this and then I
can have a kind of cheeky nod to Sigmund Freud,
who's my great grandfather, kind of tongue in cheek.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
Well, food and fashion there are very interesting parallels, just
saying it gives you a sense of adventure what you're wearing,
it gives you a sense of safety, and it gives
you a sense very often of comfort. Yeah, if you
do seek food for comfort, is there something you would
go for?
Speaker 3 (31:40):
I've got two things. One is, when I'm really tired,
I often crave something very salty and very hot. And
not that I get this almost ever, but I crave
boiling hot consumme and caviat because I feel like it
(32:00):
will charge me up. But then when I think about
what is real emotional comfort, it's bread and cheese, and
it's still well. In an ideal world, I'd have bread
with some fruit in like you know that kind of
French bread, that heavy bread, slightly toasted, and then some
(32:26):
slices of something like manchego that just starts to soften
on it. And then I can feel my whole nervous
system relaxing at the thought of that. I don't eat
that very often because it doesn't particularly agree with me,
but that I feel my whole body melting at the
(32:46):
thought of bread and cheese. And in my childhood, bread
and cheese was just so wonderful.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
It was just great.
Speaker 3 (32:54):
And Mum used to make cheese on toast for breakfast
sometimes and it just made our family feel complete. It
was a really important thing.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
Let's go have some bread and cheese in the river,
pasta and cheese or soothed and cheese.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Thank you, Thank you
Speaker 1 (33:12):
Rudy, Thank you for listening to Ruthie's Table four in
partnership with Montclair
You were listening to Ruthie's Table four in partnership with Montclair.
Whenever I'm with Bella Freud, which isn't often enough, I
always wish I could see more of her. She's in
fashion and I'm in food. A meal is a moment,
and an outfit changes daily. Right now, I'm wearing Bella's
iconic nineteen seventy sweater. A few years ago she created
(00:22):
an Nemesis sweater for the River Cafe, and one of
my most treasured possessions is a Bella sweater, saying Bella, this,
Bella that. In our early years, Bella's father, Lucien Freud,
came almost every day to the River Cafe. When with Bella,
we were told never to interrupt, as this was their
precious time. Now, when Bella comes with her friends.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
I always wish I could whisk her.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Away and have her all to myself. Today, on Table four,
I finally am.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Thank you, Ruthie. It's so nice to have you here.
And it is true you did come with your dad.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Yeah, and sometimes he do risk me away when I'm
here and I don't know. I love it. You beckon
to me and say come here, and then we stand
behind a corner. Are they talking?
Speaker 2 (01:10):
What are they doing? In this world?
Speaker 1 (01:12):
We have to talk or just talk about each other.
What are your memories of your dad coming here?
Speaker 3 (01:16):
I remember we came here when it first started. We
jump in the car, and then he drove very fast,
terribly terrifyingly. I'm very good at kind of masquerading a calmness,
and some of it's learnt from sitting next to him
while he drove in this petrifying way. He'd drive very
(01:36):
fast towards something and then swerve suddenly, so then we'd
arrive and.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Lived another moment. Great food.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
And I remember he also used to come here with Lee.
Barry and Lee used to learn all about food from
eating out with Dad and coming here. And I always
remember this moment him saying, yes, the poach pears are
very good. It was so lovely.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
I remember one day he came and we had a
sign on the door because we were painting the restaurant.
We closed for lunch. We only opened for lunch, and
I said, listen, I'm really really sorry that you know
we're closed today, but I'll cook you something and he said,
I have a better idea. I'm going to take you
out to lunch, and yeah, he took me to Kensington
(02:23):
Place and we had lunch. He was just fantastic, you know,
spontaneous and kind and just caring and talking to me
and asking me about me, you know, and it was
very It was one of the great moments in my life.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Yeah, he was fun.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
He was such a good company and he made you
feel so special.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
I used to come in those trousers with Peter all
over them, and you know, he was great.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
It was exciting.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
It's very interesting you were saying that a lot of
your experience of eating with him was in restaurants.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
I remember going because I lived in the country and
i'd camp to London and all my sort of encounters
with him as I got to know him when I
was little were we used to go to marine IC's
when I was very small, and then he would take
us to this Greek restaurant in notting Hill. But it
(03:15):
was always a meeting to do with being in a
restaurant and the food. I would be quite nervous, so
the food was probably secondary, but that was the context.
And then you know, when i'd sit for him. When
I moved to London when I was sixteen, we'd work
(03:36):
and have this break and zoom out, go somewhere very
fast and come back. But then sometimes he would cook,
and he was a very good cook, and it was
very different from how my mother cooked. It was well,
I mean, we just didn't have very much food. And
when you asked me to be on this podcast, I
(03:58):
was like, oh my god, I didn't. In the sixties
and seventies, there wasn't much food around, and then my
mother she didn't have There was no food abundance. And
my overriding memory was the food we did have took
about a day or two, like it was lentils, it
was hippie food. There were no snacks, there was no
(04:23):
nothing to eat, and I was hungry quite a lot
of the time. So I have a kind of strange
attitude to I think. So let's go about your mum
in the sixties.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
She would have been hold.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
She was eighteen when I was born, so very young,
and she wasn't married and her parents didn't even know
she had children until me and my sister esther were
about I think I was four, and someone saw us
walking down the street and told her parents, who lived
in Ireland, and so it was very you know, she
(04:57):
had a that's tough, yeah, having to be have two children.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
But your father was an art involved it was.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
They lit up when I was two, and he wasn't
at all hands on or she made an effort to
make sure that we saw him. And he was always
very responsive as a father and very affectionate, and that was,
you know, kind of a lifeline, even though I don't
(05:25):
you know, she had to sort of take care of
us without his help or very little help. When I
was six, my mother decided that we would go and
live in Morocco. I think a lot of people were
going there and she thought, oh, my money will go
further there, we can have an interesting time. She was
(05:48):
interested in Soufiism and music and she was an amazing
person and very sound. Yeah, she was very courageous. So
we drove there.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
We drove from from from Tunbridge Wells to Mary care
or did she have another partner.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
There was this couple, this man and his wife. I
think anyway, she was sat in the back of this
van going crazy. Literally she didn't speak and he drove
and he was he was kind of really bad tempered
and stuff. I didn't really like. I was six when
we left, so she was four, and we drove and
(06:31):
the van kept breaking down. It was kind of.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
She took you out of school age six.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
Yeah, so I must have been at nursery so I'd
learned to read, so I had a few books and stuff,
and that was always a big thing for me. There
was a boat that you took and you landed in Morocco,
and I remember us throwing peach stones into the sea
and watching all these fish come and eat.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
All the fruit.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
And then when we arrived there, we moved around a lot.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
But the food was.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Interesting because in the square in Marrakesh there were these
these men who would sell little tin cups of spicy
broth with snails, and they were great. Threw you into
an advent. You must have been hungry. Yeah, what you
were eating, I mean not very many six year olds.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
I know, they were really good. I mean that's there
wasn't much going, you know. I loved those snails.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
But I love the food of Morocco.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
But as a six year olds had come from London
in a car that Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
I was talking to my sister esther before saying, do
you remember what we ate? You know, we didn't, and
then she remembered there used to be these stalls in
the main square and they sold this soup called bisara,
and it was most delicious thing. I just remember. It
was just incredible, this beige soup with a they'd pour
(08:08):
a tiny bit of olive oil and have a bit
of paprika, and it was it was just like it
was just like a kind of blood transfuture. It was,
and we loved it.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
It ap probably was, you know, because Ramadan you don't
eat at all, and then you just see when the
sun sets everybody, you know, because you've been fasting all day,
and it is the soups, isn't it. Yeah. I have
a very strong association with being in Marrakesh and Morocco
and soups.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
Yeah, they were really good. And then there would be
this kind of European breakfast, so my mother would sit
in a cafe and maybe with some friends and they'd
have this milky coffee and then croissants, I think, and
it was very dreamy those moments. And then I remember
(08:58):
something that I got a gum infection where I couldn't
eat anything and it was so agonizing. They also used
to sell in the square these little bottles of yogurt,
and one was white and one was fluorescent pink, and
that was the only thing I could eat because if
I even tasted a tiny bit of sponge cake, it
(09:20):
was like broken glass. And did you go to a dentist?
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
I've spent a lot of time in Marrifsh, but they
used to have a dentists and square that you could
actually sit on a blanket too.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Bold or whatever.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
And then you know that the vine with the storytellers
and fortune tellers.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
And I remember walking past sometimes and you'd see a
dentist place and there was no door and you'd just
hear people screaming. So I was quite keen to not go,
and I kind of developed a pain management where I
would just I would just internalize and go silent. Yeah,
(10:01):
that sort of stayed my whole life, really, but I
and so I remember this moment where I had my
first bite of toast with marmalade, and it was just
my mother used to eat toast with marmalade at breakfast,
and it was just like it was the most It
was just like a king's meal, I remember, And I've
(10:24):
been obsessed with toasts and marmalade my whole life. And
then you know a lot of the some of the
time we didn't have any food, and I remember we
went encamped by this lake in the country and there
was we had no food, and then this fisherman gave
us some fish and cooking it over a fire. And
so there would be periods where we just didn't really
(10:47):
have things, but somehow we always got something in the end.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
And do you think your mother did she herself not
care whether she ate or not, or do you think
she also wasn't aware or was she I think she
thought this would be okay, you know.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
I think you know, it wasn't very often that that happened,
that we literally there wasn't anything, and I remember there
was a lot of worry about God, we really haven't
got a single thing to eat. And then suddenly it
was like Jesus and the fish, you know, this fisherman
and we had this huge meal and it was all
(11:25):
really exciting. And people were very very kind in Morocco
as well, and they were kind to us, you know.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Yeah, you know, the museum tells you about culture, and
architecture tells you about culture, but that is also the
way people respond to food and sharing.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
And yeah, a generosity is to do I think.
Speaker 3 (11:46):
With culture, I know, it really is sort of strange
how you remember those moments to do with people, you know.
I remember this one time that we were traveling and
we were we'd got a lift on a donkey cart
and it was starting to get dark. The only thing
we had was someone had given us these fresh eggs,
(12:08):
and so we made a fire and then we put
these hot stones in the fire and tried to fry
eggs on them, and it was really exciting. But then
the eggs just slithered off immediately, and then it was
kind of worrying. It was getting dark. And then the
man who dropped us off came back and said, come
(12:28):
to our house. And we went to his house and
they had this wonderful food and we sat in the
garden and then we stayed and we I remember we
rolled up in carpets. They gave us carpets, and we
slept outside in the orchard and it was it was incredible.
It was so long ago, and I'll never forget.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Yeah, yeah, can you smell the food.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
There's a certain smell of Morocco that is like the
smell of sun touching the grass.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
And this is a kind of nomadic life. That you heard.
How long did it last?
Speaker 3 (13:05):
I think we were there for two years.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Two years.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Yeah, your sister wrote a book. Yeah, she wrote it
Hideous Kinkyou they made a.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Film of it.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
Yeah, they made a really good film. It was wonderful.
And yeah, Esthera wrote her first novel called Hideous Kinky
because we would get sort of quite bored, and hideous
kinky were our favorite words, and we just used to
charm them. So the adults, these young people sort of
(13:37):
in their early twenties, would be sitting around in the
cafes and me and Esta would just be chanting hideous kinky,
hideous kinky, and then we'd go faster and faster and
then slower and just.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Was your father in touch at all? Did yeah? Send
us things?
Speaker 3 (13:54):
And I remember we'd get a care package. Sometimes I'd
go to the post office for like a couple of
weeks before it would arrive, and then there might be
a mass bow. I remember there was a bar of
chocolate that I just ate before I got home. I
felt rather guilty about that.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
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each delivery. It's a perfect way to bring some River
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(14:42):
really care for them with the gift. Visit our website
shop the Rivercafe dot co uk to place your order. Now,
when did you come home?
Speaker 3 (14:55):
So? Then we came home in nineteen sixty nine and
we moved to Sussex, and Mum wanted us to go
to this Stiner school. I became obsessed with food, and
I would my friends would have all these cute lunches
and in like sandwiches and like special things. One girl
(15:18):
had tinned fruit in a little container, and I used
to just stare at them like a dog, and just
stare like and the first until they gave me some
of their food. And then I'd go and visit them,
and the first thing I'd say is.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Got any food? And then I would just eat anything.
Everything I could get. I would just and then I'd
have started having these terrible stomach aches. I'd lie under
the table just like me some pudding, so I'd be
in terrible pain, but I didn't want to miss any food,
(15:55):
but my mother would. I was talking to I was
remembering with esta the things that she made, and she
used to make these tuna fish souflet, which sounds awful,
but it was so good, sort of creamy.
Speaker 3 (16:13):
It was tasty. And my mother was perfectly sort of
adequate cook, but things didn't taste much like. She was
interested in health food, you know, beans that took like
a week.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
To silk them.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
And then Yea was Lucy in a success. It was
he the recognized painter at that time.
Speaker 3 (16:35):
That not really, I mean he there was very very
little anything, and it wasn't really until much later that
he became suddenly more known. And he was extremely private.
So we had these two years of moving and then
we moved in to this quite nice house and shared
(16:58):
where we were the lodge of this family, a father
with three daughters who then my mother and he started
a relationship and I really didn't like him. I got
on really badly with him, but he was a very
good cook. And we had this kind of nice place,
you know, we had our own rooms and it knew
(17:20):
about what age, so I was eleven. Yeah, they had
an arga and they had this argur cookbook, and I
started cooking and making things, and he would make really
delicious food and lasagna we'd never had lazagne, you know,
and hornbread, and so I got interested in other things,
(17:43):
and I learned how to cook stuff as well, and
I learned about taste and how much that mattered more
than anything, really, the sort of difference in food with
my mother, and then going to my father's I remember
he was very keen on oysters. When I was fourteen,
(18:05):
he took me to Wheelers and I thought, well, I'd
better have these oysters, and I hope I like them,
because if I don't like the oysters, maybe he will
be really disappointed in me. And then I loved the oysters,
and I was so happy.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
If you had snails and rocco, yeah, oysters, and you
were starting to cook, then food must have been a
part of your curiosity about life. Yeah, what, you were
ready to go on that adventure when you finished school?
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Did you finish school?
Speaker 3 (18:38):
No? I didn't. I left home when I was sixteen
and I moved to London and I shared a My
dad got me a flat that I shared with my
half sister Rose. I went to do my A levels
but I only I just dropped out and then I
started sitting for dads and that was the order in
(19:01):
my life. So everything revolved around that, and even though
my life was very chaotic and unmanageable, I would always
be there for him. He was thank God, you know
he It was like this reason I had to be,
you know, have some semblance of order and keep going
(19:23):
and not drop off the face of the earth in
a way.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
You began working in fashion. Was it when you started
thinking that clothes mattered?
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Do you think the.
Speaker 3 (19:37):
Earlier? I remember as a child thinking how much clothes mattered,
because people really sort of noticed you if you weren't
wearing normal clothes. And my mother, she dressed in a
sort of hippie where she was incredibly beautiful, but we
(19:58):
were looked down, and so I was conscious that we
were different and people like noticed us in a way
that sometimes just exhausting. And so I was aware that
certain clothes made me feel really great, Like what I'm
(20:19):
wearing today, this shirt tie and of v neck jumper.
That's really what I wanted. And we didn't have a
school uniform, so I longed for this order. I didn't
mind being turbulent within but I wanted some sort of
encasement so I didn't feel like I was going to well.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
Fashion as a shield itself. Yeah, it's a shield, it
can be. I mean, it is a bit like food,
and there is a relationship of how you identify yourself.
You know, we all need to wear clothes to keep
us warm, and we all need to eat to keep
us healthy. And yes, choices though involve a lot of
other decisions, because you can who you.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Want to be exactly.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
Because I started to notice that if I had clothes
on that I liked, I could feel much less self conscious.
I always remember this moment. I had this scoop neck
top on. I must have been eleven or ten the
mom had made with balloon sleeves, and I looked in
(21:23):
the mirror and thought, I really don't like this. I
want to shut up with a collar. And I'd go
to jumble cells and buy boys clothes and wear those.
And I really liked to be contained to feel safe.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
Well, as a designer, it's like you have someone's back.
Literally you're dressing them when you're protecting them with your clothes,
and you're imbuing them with all everything to bring out
their best qualities and.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
Sort of care for them.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
And then I would always notice the difference, especially like
with my father. He would when here working, sometimes we'd
go out and he'd just be in his painting clothes
and taxis wouldn't stop because they think he was a tramp.
And then he would if we went somewhere like Annabel's,
he'd put on a Huntsman suit and it was just
(22:17):
you know, Cinderellas, we'll go to the wall, you know.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
He he looked so good, and he looked I loved
the change.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
And so I've always been interested in that sort of
thing where you have one piece, like you have walking
down Portobello and the guys who'd have shops down there
or just hanging out in track suits with a tailored jacket,
and they just look so cool. And I love this
thing that a tailored jacket could give you this magic,
(22:48):
this fairy dust sprinkle. And I've always been kind of
obsessed with suits and uniforms, like how bus conductors dress
and used to dress information a uniform. When did you
actually start to brand?
Speaker 1 (23:05):
Yeah, so I started in nineteen ninety and I started
working from home, and because I didn't really have money
to pay anyone much.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
We would have lunch in the kitchen every day and
someone would cook. Sometimes I'd cook, because when I was
working for Vivian Westward, and I'd been living in Italy
before then and I moved back to London started working
for her, and I'd cook her lunch.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Do you know her? Had you know her before?
Speaker 3 (23:35):
I worked in her shop when I was a teen.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
About Vivian Westward, so that we know who.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
So, Vivian Westwood was an incredibly influential avant garde designer.
She was very much the designer of punk. She created
fashion from punk and designed things that people had never
seen before. And she had a shop in King's Road
and with her her partner Malcolm McLaren, who was the
(24:02):
manager of the Sex Pistoles, and she designed all the
clothes they wore, and they had these amazing clothes and
it was the first time I had experienced any sort
of agency as a person through wearing these clothes that
she designed. And suddenly people were like slightly intimidated and
(24:25):
it was really exciting.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
And what did you do with her?
Speaker 3 (24:29):
So I, first of all, I worked in her shop
when I was seventeen, and when I lived in Italy.
She was also working in Italy and she would come
stay with me in Rome sometimes and we became friends.
And then when I left Rome, i was studying fashion there.
I came back to London and then I worked as
(24:50):
her assistant and at that time we just worked from her.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
She teach you that she taught you that you and
her fashion is. Does it still influence you. It's different,
it's very different. But what she taught me was to
go beyond yourself whenever you possibly can, never give up really,
and it's that's what I learned from watching my father
(25:18):
work as well. If something goes wrong, you can't let
that stop. You have to work through something.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
When I work for Vivian, I learned everything I did,
all the different jobs, so production press, sort of working
on ideas and.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
What is the skill of being a fashion designed that
you have to We have chefs that have never been
to cooking school and we teach them life skills they learn.
You know, I was never taught Rose, my partner was
never taught. And I look in one on some of
the young people with their what they can do and
sometimes what they can't, and how when we have a
(25:54):
skill as a profession then you hell.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
Because Vivian she was self to and I think that
the real skill of a designer, the sort of kitchen
as it were, is to fit. Because Vivian didn't learn
how to make patterns, but she would make something work
through instinct and fitting and you know, I know what
(26:21):
to pull up the suppression where it will result in
the change of how it fits on a body. And
I think that's the most important thing. That you can
shape something literally and then it doesn't really matter what
it's made of or but if you have that kind
(26:41):
of recognizable way of editing something, people are drawn to that.
And then I sometimes it's so circumstantial because when I
was living in Rome, I met this woman who had
a knitting machine in her flat in a tower block.
So I used to go and visit her and started
(27:03):
designing knitwear just because that was something. And then I
was always interested in record covers and what people water
on protest marches, this kind of how one thing could
mean so much and say so much, and language was
always really important. I think as being a girl, you
(27:29):
don't have physical power, so you have to use your words.
And I was very keen to express my contempt for
a lot of things, and I honed it as much
as I could.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
The River Cafe Winter Said Lunch is now running from
Monday to Thursday. Reserve a booking at www. River cafet
co uk or give us a call. Would you like
to read the recipe for sea bass? Do you want
to tell me why you chose this recipe? But I
(28:09):
quite often cook dinner for myself just me. I sort
of prefer cooking just for myself. And it's sea bass
over potatoes, and I sort of mess about with it
a bit, but essentially feel free filets of sea bass,
cherry tomatoes, and I do as you say in the
recipe and squeeze out the juice, and then five hundred
(28:32):
grams of potatoes, some ba leaves and a lemon, and
then sometimes I put some olives in as well.
Speaker 3 (28:40):
So I love the.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
Thing that you say to do, which is bring the
potatoes to the boil till they're almost perfectly cooked but
not quite, and then slice them in thick slices, and
then drizzle a roasting.
Speaker 3 (28:54):
Tray with olive oil and cover the sliced potatoes and
tomato halves, and put the bas leaves on top. And
sometimes I put rosemary, because I love rosemary. Put the
sea bass filets on top and drizzle with olive oil
and roast for six minutes, and then pull it out
(29:14):
and put the lemon juice over and roast for another
six minutes. If there's some white wine, I'll put some
of that on. I mean, what I love about this
recipe is that it's there aren't too many ingredients, because
if I see too many, I just panic and then
I think, oh, I'll just have some toast. But this
(29:36):
is wonderful and it's nurtured me many a time.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
When you started out in the introduction about talking about
your podcast, well.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
It's call fashion Neurosis, and my guest like, in a way,
the way you talk about food, and it's a kind
of clue to someone's internal life. Fashion neurosis is someone's
clothing is their clue. It's the gateway. And some people
(30:04):
we talk a lot about clothes, and some people we
talk hardly at all. But also I've always been interested
in the stories in the fashion world that people never
hear about. I think it's very badly seen or it's
not really seen at all in the media. It's always
(30:25):
a certain way camp bitchy competitive, fairly facile, whereas the
people I've met in the fashion world are so resourceful
and remarkable, and there's a lot of real friendship and
you know, looking out for each other. It's so difficult
(30:46):
being criticized in the way that the cycle of fashion
sort of is just normal to do that. So my
guest lies on the couch, well, I thought, well, when
I was first figuring out how it would look, I
thought I need a prop and then I thought, Okay,
if they lie on the couch and I sit in
(31:07):
this chair, everyone will know it's this and then I
can have a kind of cheeky nod to Sigmund Freud,
who's my great grandfather, kind of tongue in cheek.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
Well, food and fashion there are very interesting parallels, just
saying it gives you a sense of adventure what you're wearing,
it gives you a sense of safety, and it gives
you a sense very often of comfort. Yeah, if you
do seek food for comfort, is there something you would
go for?
Speaker 3 (31:40):
I've got two things. One is, when I'm really tired,
I often crave something very salty and very hot. And
not that I get this almost ever, but I crave
boiling hot consumme and caviat because I feel like it
(32:00):
will charge me up. But then when I think about
what is real emotional comfort, it's bread and cheese, and
it's still well. In an ideal world, I'd have bread
with some fruit in like you know that kind of
French bread, that heavy bread, slightly toasted, and then some
(32:26):
slices of something like manchego that just starts to soften
on it. And then I can feel my whole nervous
system relaxing at the thought of that. I don't eat
that very often because it doesn't particularly agree with me,
but that I feel my whole body melting at the
(32:46):
thought of bread and cheese. And in my childhood, bread
and cheese was just so wonderful.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
It was just great.
Speaker 3 (32:54):
And Mum used to make cheese on toast for breakfast
sometimes and it just made our family feel complete. It
was a really important thing.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
Let's go have some bread and cheese in the river,
pasta and cheese or soothed and cheese.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Thank you, Thank you
Speaker 1 (33:12):
Rudy, Thank you for listening to Ruthie's Table four in
partnership with Montclair
Host
Ruth Rogers
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