February 28, 2022 • 56 mins
With a Russian invasion looming over Ukraine, Melanie and Paula drive to a monastery in the Carpathian Mountains to speak with a priest whose silence has echoed for more than twenty years.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Another steep, snowy mountain road in Ukraine, but this time
there was nothing to fear on the other side. We
did it before meeting with father Abbott, Gregory went and
Petra Tarenta, Paula and I made a whirlwind visit to
(00:29):
see the kofels at Mike's childhood home in Regovina Bistra. Wow,
tell her it smells in here. It was truly a whirlwind.
We couldn't stay long, but in that time Maria and
Yuri buzzed around like two excited bees, showing us literally everything,
their cows and chickens, their farming tools, Mike's old sled,
(00:51):
the dog. What's the dog's name again? What are you doing?
We talked so much and so fast, I was worried
our translator you was going to explode. So the house
wasn't too different from what the investigators who visited twenty
years ago saw. Maybe the biggest difference was now they
(01:12):
had a bathroom inside. They did have a lot of
Byzantine images on the walls, but also photos of Mike
when he was a kid. Between the framed pictures, we
noticed that even had two photos of Paula, Mike and
me from some of our prison visits. At one point,
Yuri came zooming into the living room with an old
(01:34):
VHS tape and he popped it into the VCR under
their little color TV. It went staticky and black. Then
pixelated white letters flashed on the screen. It said graduation,
Sister Marie and Sister Chef. It was Mike's high school
commencement ceremony from Holy Cross. And we stood around and
(01:55):
watched as so many of the people we've talked about
through the years came gliding down the aisle. Father, the
last person in the procession was Father went. He walked
through the auditorium door in a wide black robe with
(02:16):
two huge white crosses on the sides. Seeing him on
the video snapped me back into reality. Not long from now,
the man on the screen would walk through a different
door and reopen his own past. I'm Paula Barrows and
(02:40):
I'm Melanie Bartley, and this is sacred scandal. But you
would understand why we want your voice on here that
came up on this hill to hear your version of
the story. You know what I mean. I was going
(03:07):
to ask you a question because you talk about the aftermath. Yeah,
when is the aftermath? And when does it start? When
does it end? Well on the way to the bridge,
(03:33):
is Bridge is almost at the bridge where Petro will
be waiting for us. After leaving the cafels, we drove
back toward Usgara to drop off our translator, Julia and
meet up with Petro, who would lead us to the monastery.
I'm scared that I'm scared that I might do something
wrong and upset him. But I really just wanted you
(03:54):
can ask him the questions, you know, Yeah, I think
this is him. Two days after our first visit there,
all the snow already melted, so the impassable hill was
a little easier to drive out. Yeah, this looks a
lot less threatening. It's a lot less the shining. When
we got to the top, we were amazed by what
we saw. It was a huge fenced and clearing in
(04:16):
the forest. In the far back corner, the new monastery
with its gold domed top, loomed over everything. This is
so cool. It was scary before the interview. Petro let
(04:38):
us take a look around the monastery, and being inside
was a little emotional for me. You know. The first right,
the walls were covered with Bysantine iconography like the ones
that used to be in Holy Cross, the ones that
Paula and I saw were painted over just a few
(04:58):
weeks before coming here pat church and we were also, like,
we do, but it doesn't have any chography. Well, first
we had moved into there, but Petro said they weren't
painted over. These were the same murals from my school.
They had them cut off the walls, packed into a
container ship and sent all the way across Europe to
(05:20):
this new monastery. I was stunned to see those same
images I used to look at every day so far
from Miami. We thought it was painted over. Yeah, I
can't believe, and this is possible, And here it is.
It's amazing. It's not kind of like a rough. After
(05:45):
a few minutes at the monastery, Petro walked us across
the ground to a small cabin that they used for
gatherings after Sunday services. Then he left to get father. Went.
We came here searching for their perspective. When we first
entered the cabin, we had no idea we'd be leaving
(06:07):
a few hours later, feeling like we just heard an
entirely different story than the one we thought we knew.
Paula and I sat next to each other on one
side of a table in the middle of the room.
Then we waited for Petro to come back with Father
went do you kiss their hand? No? Do you see
(06:32):
the sweat on my hands? Literally got it. You're amazing,
You're smart. Our father high. When he came in. He
wasn't wearing the long black robe and tall hat I
(06:53):
always remembered him in, but a black leather jacket. He
was definitely still the tallest person in the room, but
felt older than the last time I saw him, and
Petro had to drive him over to the cabin, which
was only a few meters away from their house. A
huge part of me felt bad seeing him so much
frailer than the image I had in my mind, and
(07:16):
as a former student of Holy Cross, I felt guilty
during the whole interview for bringing all of this tragedy
back into both of their lives. And listening back to
the recording a few weeks later, I feel like I
sound way more agreeable with them than I should have
been that day. He's in his late seventies and we
didn't know what to be prepared for. Petro told us
(07:38):
that father wants memory isn't always the best these days,
so he might not remember every detail we were after
maybe like sit sit in, sit in, I love it
if you were Petro took a seat on a small
sofa off against the wall, and Father went sat alone,
directly across from Paula and me say in here like this.
(08:01):
It kind of felt like an interrogation. I couldn't help
but think of how we probably looked like the attorneys
Gay Levine and Edith Georgie when they sat together across
from the priests and heard nothing but the Fifth Amendment
for hours. And at first we wondered if things might
be on that same strange course. Even though we already
talked about the details of the interview for an hour
(08:23):
earlier that day, we spent nearly the first twenty minutes
of this conversation trying to navigate what would be on
the record and renegotiating everything with Father went that's what
you said us true, with a caveat that I get
to say that I don't want to scoring in or
whatever after we get farther along. You know, you thought
(08:45):
you thought we could be doing something good. I'm very
much for anything that's good. Keep in mind that over
the last few days we only ever communicated with Petrol.
Father went read but never replied to our texts, an
been called us through Petro's phone. By now, Petro felt
kind of like the priest's handler. Also, and again through Petro,
(09:10):
Father went asked for a list of questions that we
might ask, which we shared. But it was clear when
we spoke to him in person that he wasn't just
drifting along in the background. He was getting ready to
talk to us and preparing his responses. Other conversations were
happening before we got there too. Well. I spoke to
Father Damian this afternoon. You did very interested to hear
(09:35):
what you're really What did he say? I'm so curious. Um,
I think he would have liked to have been here,
but I would love to interview him. Do you think
he would let me? Probably not because he doesn't like us. Oh,
it's good that it's you. I don't like it. I'm
not the one that likes interviewing not I think him
(10:00):
or less him to the decision. If it's one of us,
it's you. And once we did actually get the interview started,
we were still worried how it might go. What felt
like some of the simplest questions had the most complicated answers.
I would love an introduction. State your name please for me,
and who you are in relation to Holy Cross? The
(10:23):
Holy quest doesn't exist any longer. Who you were in
relation to who was my name? Is probably the most
difficult time of answers, because we were not simply priests,
and we were not simply monks, but we were among
(10:47):
priests as such. This aside about ecclesiastical titles went on
for about a solid minute until he made his point,
and even that response felt like he was maybe preempting
later questions about his own titles. I never became a bishop,
but almost all of the other positions, at some point
or another I legitimately held. So getting back to what
(11:13):
my name is or what would you like to call
me tonight? I want to know what you would like
to be called. The name that was originally given to
me by the bishop was Gregory um okay, and your
relation to Holy Cross back then, what was it? I
was the founder and as long as we used a
title headmaster, then it was me. Sometimes Father went would
(11:44):
answer our questions, sometimes he refused. Then other times the
priests would go on long tangents where it felt like
he was trying to get Melanie and me to forget
what we asked in the first place. As we talked,
Petro would jump in to help fill the gaps m
and we went on like this into the evening. For
the next few hours. We'd cover the eparchy investigation, the
(12:07):
sex abuse allegations, and Sister Michelle's murder, and he'd tell
us aspects of this case that we've never heard before.
We'll pick up our interview after a break. Welcome back
(12:36):
to Sacred Scandal. When we started talking with Father Went
and Petrol, we didn't want to get too far ahead
of ourselves. Were worried they might kick us out if
we immediately jumped into the difficult stuff. So we started
simple with Holy Cross and how the idea came to
start a religious school, and we're basically where I started
(12:59):
dropped at first. I wanted something that was serious about
our religion, thanking our religion and talking about the Catholic system.
Whether it's Eastern Western, I don't care, but it was
that's how I grew up. So that was the thing.
I wanted, something serious about religion. Why if religion isn't serious,
(13:21):
what do we have? So that's why I was serious
because I said, this is serious. I've always heard of serious.
My mother said it was serious, my father said it was.
So that's the reason for religious And the thing is
I was always attracted, you know, to learning. I was
(13:43):
very happy. Most of the kids were screaming and yelling
that they had to learn Latin. I was very happy learning.
I thought it was always a help to us that
we were plugged in to the local school system, not
meaning the law, but the Catholic schools, and which you know,
(14:05):
some of them are dioecesan under a bishop, as some
of them are not ever under a bishop, and so forth,
so that there's the sort of the structures of how
they you know, so was Holy Cross Academy and monastery
under a bishop woll yes and no, okay, So as
(14:31):
soon as we were established as a monastery, and that
once you're talking about it a monastery that actually exists,
then there's certain things bishop has no right trying to
do over there, that sort of things. So monasteries are
(14:52):
usually run by monks, and if you have a diocesan
priest who knows nothing about monks, he's not going to
be too helpful at best. So when you found it
Holy Cross Academy UM and Monastery. As far as I understand,
you were under the jurisdiction of the Eparchy of Passaic,
(15:17):
New Jersey. Is that correct. I'm not going to touch
trance because it's fine for where we are. Though he
gave unclear answers about Holy Cross status within the Byzantine
Catholic Church. Father Went was more than happy to talk
about Bishop Andrew Pataki, who started the investigation into the
(15:39):
school and monastery. And we had a really incredible bishop
at one point, Andrew Pataki. And if if you've read
any Darrel Andrew um anyway, I don't want to get
a Bash Andrew session because Sister Michelle and I fell
(16:03):
into that too easily. Sister Michelle was not buying any
of what Andrew Patucki was trying to sell. Shove you
know what you feel in your own verbs. She didn't
have any interest in him and the from the get go,
and he pretty much since that's where it stood. But
(16:27):
before it really all got bad, let me backmap to them,
because you should hear Pataki was going to come what
they called vegetation and basically system. Michelle got me in
a corner and said You're going to have to see
to it that I don't punch him in the face.
(16:52):
It's your job that he doesn't leave this place, you know,
bring two black eyes. I counted as one of my
great errors of my life that one Pottaki was ordained
a bishop. I had an invitation to go to the
(17:12):
Holy Land, and I could either go to the Holy
Land or I could go to Pottaki's you know, Yeah,
this is cold an infroment. Believe it or not, it's
very fitting. So that's the thing. I went to the
in throement. I never regretted it more, and I never
(17:33):
got to go to the Hole Land. As he went
on about Pottaki, we didn't even have to ask. Father
went why he disliked the bishop so much? May I
tell you the question? Everyone would really want to know
what you're not asking? Um, what was Pottaki interested in?
Was he interested in Holycrost? This Holocaust? Heck no, what
(17:57):
would he like to have seen me fail? So? Any right?
When you know, and he would had his ideas immediately
obvious to me what he was going for. He wanted
me out of there, and that while I was gone,
(18:20):
the school could be foreclosed on by the diocese, you know,
specifically him that I have some bishop because we wanted
all the money. They wanted the money, and so that's
why he wrote that letter to the Vatican that leader.
It wasn't even that good. Did you hear this part
(18:41):
from someone else, a friend of a friend or We
asked if he knew the Vatican's verdict on Bishop attacky suggestions,
and he didn't really answer the question, but he said
the result was clear. But the point is ATTACKI, you know,
received response that I get thrown out. Did he get
(19:03):
what he wanted? No? And what is the process if
you want to switch from the Byzantine Catholic Church to
the o c A. As you guys did, How how
you go? How did you go about that? What was
the process? The pung process? Is it difficult? Is it? Well?
First of all, you have to get acquainted with what
(19:24):
is the Orthodox system of worship, So you have to
go through all these things which are only common sence. No,
I was just gonna say that we were practicing the
Orthodox way in the Catholic Church. That's what it was.
That's why we were business in. We were practicing the
Orthodox way in the Catholic Church because that's a branch
of Catholic Church, Eastern branch. That's why when we became Orthodox,
(19:47):
when the Orthox Bishop came to receive us in Miami,
he saw that our church, the econography was there, not
the statutes, because that's one of the major differences between
the two churches. You know, the econography is that the
music is very similar. The garments that the monks were
are the same. You know that the bishop said, you
don't have to change anything, you don't have to adapt,
you already practicing it. And so you had a good
(20:09):
relationship with the bishop, with every person and with the
other bishops of the church in America. We heard that
there was a little scandal within the o c a.
A Metropolitan Herman and Chondratic were accused of financial misconduct.
Let's break it down to the simple money, right. Chndratic
(20:31):
learned how to steal money. You know, Herman was apparently
I like him, I mean, let you know which Siddoman
I like him, but he didn't. Apparently they didn't keep
enough oversight. We brought up their next move from the
o c A To the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, but they
(20:54):
made it seem as if the Os investigation and their
switch was just a coincidence. They bought this land in
Ukraine years earlier and always planned to come here to
build a monastery in the Carpathian Mountains and the medical
center in Uzgarod. Leaving the o c A was simply
part of realizing that goal. So then you left the
(21:14):
o c A at some point, Right, we left because
we came here. Right, it's like we're changing jurisdiction. We
got permission from the traveled to the Orthodox bishop over
here that I would be able to receive us. Now,
almost ten years after coming to Ukraine, things changed again.
(21:37):
Even though the money they got from selling off Holy
Cross would go farther here, it would not last forever.
It sounded like the medical center never got steady business,
and they needed funds to buy supplies and to maintain
hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of equipment. It was
expensive and in the end it didn't work out. Now,
(21:58):
the Monk of Asill and Father Damien we're back in
North Carolina working in a grocery store to help them
get by. I heard um, I think we talked about
this yesterday, that they both had to get jobs. They
have to work now since they got back. Why why
is that? Why did they have to get you no money?
(22:19):
That's the one reason we went back because in America
you can make real money with real work. It doesn't
go that way here. Sometimes it does. And we're at
the point we're, you know, either we come to find
some legitimate way of bringing in you know, means to
(22:46):
support not just ourselves. But you have America going on,
you have Fortia going on, you have a hospital and
who did you see it? We did? We don't, we don't.
It's beautiful, Yeah, and that's must have our life's work.
(23:09):
Their life's work includes two monasteries and a small hospital.
But it was the first dream that they were a
part of Holy Cross Academy. That could have gone so differently. Now,
I just kind of want to know, like, yeah, like
did that affect you guys? Like that did that make
Did that make you the success? Everybody knows that. And
I think if we didn't have this incidents, we might
still have had the school to this day, and I
(23:31):
think our lives might have turned out very different. I
think I might have We probably would still have been
there right a possible We're stuff in there in Miami.
Coming up after a break, we get their side on
sister Michelle's murder and everything that happened after. Stay with us,
(24:05):
Welcome back to Sacred Scandal. I'm Paula Burrows and I'm
Melanie Bartley. Like the lawyers twenty years ago who investigated
the sexual abuse allegations, we were curious why the priests
from Holy Cross recruited fourteen and fifteen year old boys
instead of adults, and why they had to go all
the way to Ukraine to get them. Father went on.
(24:28):
Petrol told us that bringing over teenage recruits was not
the initial plan, but was the one that seemed to
work out best at the time. I wanted to clarif
us about it because you had why you created mechanics
from you creating another important thing that people might want
to know. You guys tried to have American people right,
and it just never worked out. You have candidates, you
(24:50):
said that, you know. Also people came, they tried, and
they left, you know, like there was nobody that would
stick up, you know, And that's why since they knew
him Ukraine, the new people more religious here, that there
was no chance to find somebody that would be there
for a long time. That was the idea. Wife and
the greg came to Ukraine to search. The first group
(25:11):
I had were all adult adolescence. The embassy you would say,
you're just trying to import people for work, you know
some of our work group. I said, no, that's how
it happened because the US Embassy told me go in
(25:31):
this direction and we'll see if we can catch to
some in America. So the Embassy was basically saying that
they had to be younger for for them to facilitate
their ones can be looking for jobs on Miami Beach
and getting younger Monk candidates who could also attend Holy
Cross Academy made their paperwork even simpler. That would be
(25:53):
the easiest thing. And if you remember what was our
second line of work, school, so we could right defeas
as ourselves. Petro's story of becoming a candidate was pretty
different to Mike's. He told us that he met father,
went the winter before coming to Miami and spent almost
six months in the candidate's house in Ukraine. Mike was
(26:15):
only there for one month before moving to Florida. Back then,
they both said Mike was kind of quiet and kept
to himself so much so that Petro had no memory
of Mike ever being at the candidate's house. Father Went
didn't really remember Mike's short month at the house in Ukraine, either,
but we asked if they would have noticed any red
(26:37):
flags about Mike if he had spent more than just
a few weeks at the training house. I'm trying to
be honest. I'm not going backwards at that point. I
don't understand any red flax. And it's very interesting. There's
later on, when there's case developed into more of a
case and all of this business that, you know, it
(27:01):
became interesting to see when did these things start actually
having meaning, you know, wonders being a kind of quiet
person start to mean or some kind of an unhealthily
quiet person. Father Went also told us that it wasn't
(27:27):
him who suggested Mike should come to Miami. I didn't
pick him. I could tell you it was. I came
to Zaka Pacha the first time with two priests. One
was a Jesuit and the other one excuse me, this
was a jesuit's father. He was not a priest, and
(27:50):
they basically took me all over and her father could
speak everything they speak over here Hungary and go down
the list and Friest's father that spoke all those languages,
you know, he said, oh, take this little small one.
I talked to him later, I said, remember a little
(28:11):
small one. I said it wasn't mine because I was
accused of that by Gail Levine and one of our
brilliant brain story. He's picked this one up, you know,
he was gearing from when they were in Zarcapata. I said,
remember how he picked this one out. We gotta check
a lot of it. Almost five years after starting the program,
(28:40):
Father One started to think Mike may not be a
good fit for the monastery after all, he said. Around then,
the monastic Canada's personality started to change. I began seeing
him has not fit again. With the other students, they
(29:00):
were you know, we had at nice school. The kids
were nice. You were there. No one was trankling another
student in the hallway, and you know, I'd go, I'm
saying hello, the people saying ah, I get them. Ma.
Carlo doesn't even say hello. Everyone in the hall is
being very polite. At out He's like, you know, because
(29:22):
is always treating me and I had no affair or anything.
What if you could in any way you know Jimmy
around to have something to do with why he is
not saying good afternoon, you know, as if Harley would
take anything out and even in a worst day, did
(29:43):
you think about that in retrospect, like after the murder
or did you remember noticing that before I was complaining
about him. I wanted to send him back. That's point
blank said. He was not what I star did this
about at this point when he was actually like that,
(30:04):
like I'm the enemy. You know, we said that us.
We brought him over and you know this was they
didn't fit in with the other students. Father went said
he talked to Father Damien about sending Mike home because
of his attitude, but it never happened. Before they could
send him back, Sister Michelle was dead and Mike confessed
(30:26):
to killing her. The day of the murder was difficult
for both of them. They were the only two from
Holy Cross to see what Mike had done to Sister Michelle. Petro,
who was twenty one at the time, was the one
who first found her body. When I opened the door,
(30:49):
I saw something was terribly wrong, you know, I said,
part of the body. I saw lots of blood. What
what I remember was that she was like lying behind
the better side. I only could see like, you know,
like half of legs sticking out, and I saw a
big cut on the side. And so as soon as
I get out of the house, I ran as fast
as I could to to to tell him and I said,
(31:12):
something is bad. I don't think system Michelle is alive.
And he immediately called number one without thinking about it.
So and that's when the police came and I rescued
and the end, and then I had to go back
over with them because I wanted me there. So we
went to the crime scene. You were you were at
the crime scene? Did you think it was part of
(31:34):
like a burglary or or something like, not really brigley,
because that was not much to steal, but who knows,
some kind of like a drug addict breaking in or
you know, something like that. I did think there's a
nursery in front of our property, and so I told
the place I said, that's the only thinker comes from
my mind otherwise, so you never imagined that first that
(31:56):
it was one of you, No way, you know, it
was literally the last thing I would think. You want
to know what I personally feel guilty about. I feel
guilty that I let Sister Rochelle down because you know,
I know a situation. You have fences everywhere, so the
(32:19):
police show up. What our report? There are some migrant
workers on the That's really what else could happen here?
Father Went was often accused of seeming unemotional after the murder.
People we talked to thought his tone sounded unconcerned on
the Nun one one call, or that he didn't seem
(32:40):
sad during Sister Michelle's memorial, but he says he was
dealing with things in his own way. I had a
lot of different emotions at different times. I can't say
I had the expected emotion at this I'm we of course,
(33:03):
are always told a part of our training keep the
stiff upper lip. And finally one morning I completely broke down.
It was the lower school, and now is it by
a time we were at the liturgy, you know, for
(33:26):
Sister Michelle's repose, it for the school. I didn't break down,
and some people, let's see he's not moved. So but
first of all, I'm not there to keep the different show.
I have people that all are how moved to us.
Now it's different place. Is that something that sticks with
(33:48):
you forever. Yes, but it's you know, I feel like
it's sounds a little stranger that I'm gonna say, but
I hope you're taking the right way. I had a
good relationship with sister Michelle, and you know, like to me, I,
I would talk to her about it, how awful it wasn't,
(34:11):
how sorry we were that this happened to her. So
you would pray to her and sort of speak through
prayer with her. Through prayer, I'm not you know. She
didn't answer back, But Patrick, did you need therapy? You
know that as soon as that happened, and there was
a lot of questioning by police, by different departments. By
(34:33):
this is that everything kind of like there was so
much going on and there was no time to think
about what you saw or you needed therapy from the police.
This idea that the police and other investigators were a
problem for Holy Cross was something that came up a
lot during this interview. You might have noticed Father went
(34:54):
already mentioned Assistant State Attorney gil Vine a few times,
and he talked more about it when we brought up
their legal strategy during the sex abuse investigation. The legal
strategy was with the sex abuse stuff was plead the
fifth plead. The fifth like, just don't talk and you're
gonna be fine, right because there's no evidence, there's no nothing.
So most of it was just procedural this. It's not
(35:19):
like I was feeling, Okay, don't wink thrice. So you
lost the war, you know? Heck, I don't know what
the war was. By the end of this. The point
is I felt the attorneys did a very good job.
After a few of the meetings that I went to
of the defense attorneys, what's gil Avin's Club, prosecutor prosecutors.
(35:43):
I was to those meetings, and when I heard what
they had to say about girl, I thought, Oh, it
wasn't too bad for me. She was a horrible person. Basically,
why do you say she was a horrible person? What
did what did she do? Name my experience, and I'm
not god. I'm not trying to say what I said.
(36:04):
You know, trust me, when you got to Heaven St.
Peter will say Gallevine is a horrible person. I might
be totally wrong about her, but it's certainly my experience.
When we pushed them on this, it was clear that
both father Went and Petro had a grudge against gay Levine.
(36:26):
They thought she was taking the side of the defense
attorney Edith Georgie. In doing that, they felt she was
helping to perpetuate an image of the priests as child
predators without any evidence other than Mike's allegations, and that
put the monastic candidates and their families through even more trauma.
(36:49):
Even though they were posing parties in the court. It
is George and and living, but they kind of like
gang up on this idea of possible abuse and all
that that they walked to done that. They were like scrutinous.
They sent different kinds of police departments to talk to
us psychologists and wanted to find any kind of thing
(37:09):
they could find, any kind of to confirm this. You know,
she was here in Ukraine too. She talked to me
Hallo Sperence. She talked to all of the parents candidates,
trying to find if somebody said anything or did they
see anything, you know, and she would lie to their face.
She would say horrible things that well less and I
mean not to us, but to our parents because we're
(37:30):
in the States that we were we abused there and
stuff like that, that it was intentional. Your kids are
going to table stuff. They were brought up a prostitution,
and I remember I was told that it was your
sibling back's mother who told her that we don't believe
anything you're saying, and you yourself must not have kids,
(37:50):
because if you had, you would not be talking like
this to us. And that's when she basically didn't us anymore,
so that short her time. Let's send down. Basically, basically,
we asked him about the story that all the police
(38:11):
and lawyers told us about the day of Mike's confession.
We brought up the moment they say father went Petro
and a lawyer showed up at the homicide department and
started asking if Mike was saying anything bad about the school,
that's not true. Do you remember who you talked to
when you went, Yeah, I remember detective Detective Nanny. No.
(38:34):
I definitely can say that I was there with him,
and there would have been no reason for him to
ask that. We were concerned about Mihailo by himself at
that time, you know, because you know he he was
a responsible party for him. We had to find out
what's going on, you know, because obviously you know, he
could have been hopefully addressed if it wasn't him, for example,
(38:55):
who did that So that first phone call that you
got from from his first the only call he's allowed
to make. The call he makes, he makes to you.
What was that like for you to pick up that
phone and speak to him? Was he remorseful? Was he scared? What?
(39:18):
What was Is he a relative of yours? Okay? Let more, No,
he was not too remorseful. I mean, you know you're
talking about this horrible thing. There was no you know,
for sad there in a good or bad sense of
(39:40):
the world. There was like canok aim atal effect? You know?
Did you ask him why did you do this? Well?
First of all, he was nothing one that told me.
The police told me. I don't know what he was
gonna say. It wasn't opening with anything. So I said,
I heard from the police that you else, sister Michelle,
(40:02):
and trying to think what was the next Do you remember? Yeah?
He you told me because I wasn't there when you
spoke to him, but you told him that he was
very flat my friend, and you asked him why did
you do it? And he didn't want to call her,
He wanted to hurt her. Did he ask you for help? No,
(40:22):
you know, I said, I have heard that the public
defender office. You know, I can't give you a very
good assistance, but if not, let me know. Never heard
from her again. Mike's told us that he never reached
(40:45):
out to Holy Cross again because after he opened up
about the sexual abuse, he no longer wanted anything to
do with the priests. But we always wondered why Fathers
went or Damien never tried to talk to Mike again either.
Father one told us that after the sexual assault allegations
were made, talking to Mike no longer felt like it
(41:06):
was possible. What category was I in the enemy, whether
or not I was ever would be or whatever? How
things fell out in the universe at that point in time.
How couldn't contact anybody that was possibly on the other side?
(41:28):
Couldn't meaning weren't allowed? Um, yeah, right, basically, yes, your
attorneys give you, advise them you can do whatever you want.
They never say don't do you know what kept you
from I guess twenty years later reaching out to be
(41:54):
I loose parents. Well, I didn't speak Ukrainian and candidate
vis of these parents correspondent and I would be there
and they would to ask him translate and that sort
of thing. But that's you know. I never called any
of the parents by myself. But in this particular situation
(42:16):
where you know, these two parents who were in this
little tiny village, you know, and and their son is
in a prison and they don't know what I mean,
they know that the sun did something, and that he's
saying a bunch of stuff and any of that. Did
you ever feel like, Okay, maybe I need to sit
down and talk to these folks and and and just
kind of you know, I I have a very positive
(42:39):
feeling from them from when they when I first got
to know them, and stuff with and so on at
this point, would I have felt comfortable or even able
to do any of this. No, I'm not never in
contact with them alone. It's always you know, Michaelo is
(43:00):
there and that's how we got in contact. Why don't
you talk? You would do a lot of this sort
of thing. Well, at the time we communicated to let us,
you know, he would write them, let us they write him.
Let us before this is before the murder. This is
just a are you talking I'm talking about after PATROLA.
Did you ever talk to them? Did you ever say,
(43:23):
you know, what, did you how did this boy become
what he became? Or do you have any conversations about
any of it with his parents. Were just tiny little time.
You have to understand that it was a bumpshef for
of us and and this thing is not like, okay,
the murder happened. Then a week later, you know, things clear.
Then a month later we were like, we can do
(43:44):
whatever we want. This thing two years and there was
a lot of investigations. There's a lot of people, lots
of things going on that there was a lot of
going on. And besides, we couldn't leave at that time,
you know, because it was an ongoing an investigation. We
couldn't do we can't live the United States, have to
be here and stuff. So that was basically now and
(44:07):
I don't think they had a phone at home at
that time that you could call. Well, besides the actual
hit on us psychologically and emotionally that this took place,
that we lost two members at the same time and
one killed each other, you know, um, besides that effect
again personally, we had to deal with a lot of
(44:29):
other stuff going on. We had to think about ways
how to save the school because as you know, we
had a drop in student population and so we had
to that. That also took a lot of our attention
in the meantime this thinct two tears, that we had
to speak to different attorneys, to two different kinds of police,
even child police, and all that stuff, and UM kind
(44:56):
of lost my track. After talk into Father Went and
Petro for a few hours, we still hadn't asked anything
about the accusations of sexual abuse. To be honest, it
wasn't on the list of questions we sent over either.
We were afraid that if we put it on there,
Father Went would never have agreed to talk to us
in the first place. But it was getting late and
(45:20):
we could sense that we'd be rapping things soon. Then
Melanie got brave and started asking what we've been thinking
about all of these years. This is a hard question
for me to us and I'm but I'm gonna ask it. Um,
did did any of you ever feel that maybe he
(45:42):
was telling the truth with Father Damien, that maybe there's
a possibility, even the slightest possibility, that Father Damien was
abusing the Halo. I would like to answer that not
exactly as you asked. So when Michailo turned a teen,
you know, he had been to Ukraine as Father Damien's
(46:06):
translator and I said, you're eighteen. You can go by
yourselves or get the plane. And I said, now sit
down and tell me what is your your own view
of Father Damien? Was everything you know between you and
(46:29):
him the way you would want it to be. If not, what? Basically,
I'm giving them open ended questions. Feed me if there's
anything wrong. Nothing was going on. We were being investigated
by Gail Evin's cat. Nothing you know, this is tabulas
And that's what I asked him, and he said, no,
(46:50):
everything's fine. Why would you ask him that? Why not
if something was not right in your monastery? Would you
like to find out from a candidates mother. I was
not asking these questions because just think if anything with it. No,
there was more innocent than that. But it was a
(47:11):
type of thing I would always do. Did you have
any problems? I guess my question is had you heard
anything about Father Damien before that would lead you to
ask me, Halo, if anything inappropriate was happening? Okay, So
it was just like a preventative sort of like the
routine measure to ask that question. Questions like that question
(47:34):
like that, because it wasn't centered around sex anything between
you and God Bob, it could be that you know,
he leaves his door open a crack and you wanted
a foot. That was a totally open added question. It
had no sex as an outcome abc D sex. No,
(47:57):
it wasn't like that, but it was for anything he
wanted to. UM another question that I'm sorry, it's another
uncomfortable one, UM that I need to ask it because
we're here and UM. A lot of people would say
that there was something suspicious going on between the two
(48:20):
of you, because you you said so yourself in the
interrogation tapes that when you would travel together, that you
would share a bed. What a bed? Who is doing
this reporting? We reminded them that in the perpetuated testimony
from the monastic candidates, some of the boys, including Petro,
(48:43):
said that these two shared rooms and sometimes beds in hotels. Uh,
you know, I don't remember what I said, but I
mean if we went on vacation, for example, you know,
we used to rent a minivan and you would like
be in the hotel room and we would like west
you have something that we would like. You know, you
would like there's usually two beds in the hotel room
(49:05):
and you would just be would like hang that you
know that as the guys said, and just you know,
sit next to each other or what you're watching, but
not not nothing sexy or anything like a bed or
like just But I can't remember exactly what they said.
But do you you mind if I enter checked the question?
Isn't the bottom of that question? However you want to
(49:29):
form a phrase or whatever? Were you ever a subject
of how to file activity? You know it was do?
Isn't that what you want to know? How many otherwise
you could answer on But that's the question you want
to answer. Were you abused? That's the question. Please write
(49:54):
it down somewhere m m M. Before we wrapped things up,
(50:16):
we had one last thing we wanted to ask them.
We knew that the murder and everything that happened after
caused the downfall of Holy Cross and took away the
world they built in Miami. Even though they started over
in North Carolina and rebuild things here in Ukraine, it
still felt like a huge loss, not just for them,
(50:36):
but for everyone who cared about the school. We wanted
to know if they could ever forgive Mike for killing
Sister Michelle and setting off everything that brought Holy Cross down.
Jesus Christ said, unless you forgive your brother their sins.
Your sins will not be forgiven you as are not
(50:56):
my words, but I lived by them, you know what.
I feel comfortable. That wasn't a question. If you know,
I'm waiting for St. Peter and Missa and I were
there and St. Peter's you asked the question. That's time,
you know, there's nothing to ask. Do I forgive him? Yes?
(51:17):
Am I happy about being put in my place? No?
But I definitely do for my heart forgiven because I
know otherwise I'm not going to be forgiven either. Those
are Jesus words, and I take them seriously as much
today as when I started. Thank you. I understand you,
(51:39):
and I also a little bit a little by the
same principles, you know. But for me, well, I hope
that God forgives you, you know, that's my thing. But personally,
I'm still very angry with him because he he really
did some terrible things. He undermined for the gregrest great work.
He douched a lot of lives in the negat their way.
(52:00):
You know, all the students why we're here talking about
this and other students who heard about their parents who
heard because that's to go through a lot of hardships,
and I think changed the direction of overall in personal lives,
you know, by this terrible act. So I don't think.
I don't want to see him and to forgive. It's
(52:21):
not my thing. I just don't want to deal with
his thing. I just hope God forgives him, and that's it.
How do you feel about him getting out and coming
back to this area? Um, you better not come around
my way. That's it, I'll say, father, How do you
(52:45):
feel about it? Um? Hm? I mean you will die sometime.
I'm aware about if it's, you know, his second go around.
M past Vans saying it doesn't keep me up at night,
maybe it should. It was late when we finally packed
(53:17):
up to leave the monastery. The light from the village
in the valley below made the mountains glow against a cold,
black sky. We loaded the car and started on that
four and a half hour drive back to Leviv, a
drive that's stretched to five and then six hours and
then more as we crept down slush covered mountain highways
(53:39):
in a near white out, though we hardly noticed the
danger of it all because we had plenty to talk about.
Everything that Mike has told us has checked out I
don't think he's lied to us about anything. I don't
think we're ever going to know. Are those like military drugs.
(54:04):
Before we came to Ukraine, the Russian military was already
starting to surround the border. People in the western part
of the country seemed less bothered by the news, like
it was just a problem for the eastern half of Ukraine.
We talked about the danger of an invasion before we arrived,
and even had our own plan to walk across the
border into Slovakia if it happened and we were trapped
(54:26):
in a war zone. Now it's crazy to think that
not long after we left, those soldiers have attacked Ukraine
and the air strikes hit not far from where we
stayed in Leviv. Since it all started, we've been keeping
in touch with everyone we met, and we're hoping to
share some updates with them later in the series, So
(54:46):
keep listening for those and we'll be back next week
with another episode of Sacred Scandal. Sacred Scandal is a
(55:12):
production of Exile Content Studio and partnership with I Heart
Radio's Michael Duta podcast network. Sacred Scandal was created and
produced by Melanie Bartley and me Paula Barrows. Our senior
producer is Dennis Funk of Written in Air. The executive
producers are Rose Red and Nando Villa. Production mixing and
(55:34):
sound design by Helena de Groot. Our production assistant is
Imani Leonard. The show is fact checked by Kimberly Winston.
Original music and final audio mixing comes from Patrick Hart
and special thanks on this episode to Julia Terasuk and
Travis Roig. If you'd like to reach out, email us
(55:58):
at hello at Sacred Scan podcast dot com and you
can follow us on Instagram at Sacred Scandal m
Another steep, snowy mountain road in Ukraine, but this time
there was nothing to fear on the other side. We
did it before meeting with father Abbott, Gregory went and
Petra Tarenta, Paula and I made a whirlwind visit to
(00:29):
see the kofels at Mike's childhood home in Regovina Bistra. Wow,
tell her it smells in here. It was truly a whirlwind.
We couldn't stay long, but in that time Maria and
Yuri buzzed around like two excited bees, showing us literally everything,
their cows and chickens, their farming tools, Mike's old sled,
(00:51):
the dog. What's the dog's name again? What are you doing?
We talked so much and so fast, I was worried
our translator you was going to explode. So the house
wasn't too different from what the investigators who visited twenty
years ago saw. Maybe the biggest difference was now they
(01:12):
had a bathroom inside. They did have a lot of
Byzantine images on the walls, but also photos of Mike
when he was a kid. Between the framed pictures, we
noticed that even had two photos of Paula, Mike and
me from some of our prison visits. At one point,
Yuri came zooming into the living room with an old
(01:34):
VHS tape and he popped it into the VCR under
their little color TV. It went staticky and black. Then
pixelated white letters flashed on the screen. It said graduation,
Sister Marie and Sister Chef. It was Mike's high school
commencement ceremony from Holy Cross. And we stood around and
(01:55):
watched as so many of the people we've talked about
through the years came gliding down the aisle. Father, the
last person in the procession was Father went. He walked
through the auditorium door in a wide black robe with
(02:16):
two huge white crosses on the sides. Seeing him on
the video snapped me back into reality. Not long from now,
the man on the screen would walk through a different
door and reopen his own past. I'm Paula Barrows and
(02:40):
I'm Melanie Bartley, and this is sacred scandal. But you
would understand why we want your voice on here that
came up on this hill to hear your version of
the story. You know what I mean. I was going
(03:07):
to ask you a question because you talk about the aftermath. Yeah,
when is the aftermath? And when does it start? When
does it end? Well on the way to the bridge,
(03:33):
is Bridge is almost at the bridge where Petro will
be waiting for us. After leaving the cafels, we drove
back toward Usgara to drop off our translator, Julia and
meet up with Petro, who would lead us to the monastery.
I'm scared that I'm scared that I might do something
wrong and upset him. But I really just wanted you
(03:54):
can ask him the questions, you know, Yeah, I think
this is him. Two days after our first visit there,
all the snow already melted, so the impassable hill was
a little easier to drive out. Yeah, this looks a
lot less threatening. It's a lot less the shining. When
we got to the top, we were amazed by what
we saw. It was a huge fenced and clearing in
(04:16):
the forest. In the far back corner, the new monastery
with its gold domed top, loomed over everything. This is
so cool. It was scary before the interview. Petro let
(04:38):
us take a look around the monastery, and being inside
was a little emotional for me. You know. The first right,
the walls were covered with Bysantine iconography like the ones
that used to be in Holy Cross, the ones that
Paula and I saw were painted over just a few
(04:58):
weeks before coming here pat church and we were also, like,
we do, but it doesn't have any chography. Well, first
we had moved into there, but Petro said they weren't
painted over. These were the same murals from my school.
They had them cut off the walls, packed into a
container ship and sent all the way across Europe to
(05:20):
this new monastery. I was stunned to see those same
images I used to look at every day so far
from Miami. We thought it was painted over. Yeah, I
can't believe, and this is possible, And here it is.
It's amazing. It's not kind of like a rough. After
(05:45):
a few minutes at the monastery, Petro walked us across
the ground to a small cabin that they used for
gatherings after Sunday services. Then he left to get father. Went.
We came here searching for their perspective. When we first
entered the cabin, we had no idea we'd be leaving
(06:07):
a few hours later, feeling like we just heard an
entirely different story than the one we thought we knew.
Paula and I sat next to each other on one
side of a table in the middle of the room.
Then we waited for Petro to come back with Father
went do you kiss their hand? No? Do you see
(06:32):
the sweat on my hands? Literally got it. You're amazing,
You're smart. Our father high. When he came in. He
wasn't wearing the long black robe and tall hat I
(06:53):
always remembered him in, but a black leather jacket. He
was definitely still the tallest person in the room, but
felt older than the last time I saw him, and
Petro had to drive him over to the cabin, which
was only a few meters away from their house. A
huge part of me felt bad seeing him so much
frailer than the image I had in my mind, and
(07:16):
as a former student of Holy Cross, I felt guilty
during the whole interview for bringing all of this tragedy
back into both of their lives. And listening back to
the recording a few weeks later, I feel like I
sound way more agreeable with them than I should have
been that day. He's in his late seventies and we
didn't know what to be prepared for. Petro told us
(07:38):
that father wants memory isn't always the best these days,
so he might not remember every detail we were after
maybe like sit sit in, sit in, I love it
if you were Petro took a seat on a small
sofa off against the wall, and Father went sat alone,
directly across from Paula and me say in here like this.
(08:01):
It kind of felt like an interrogation. I couldn't help
but think of how we probably looked like the attorneys
Gay Levine and Edith Georgie when they sat together across
from the priests and heard nothing but the Fifth Amendment
for hours. And at first we wondered if things might
be on that same strange course. Even though we already
talked about the details of the interview for an hour
(08:23):
earlier that day, we spent nearly the first twenty minutes
of this conversation trying to navigate what would be on
the record and renegotiating everything with Father went that's what
you said us true, with a caveat that I get
to say that I don't want to scoring in or
whatever after we get farther along. You know, you thought
(08:45):
you thought we could be doing something good. I'm very
much for anything that's good. Keep in mind that over
the last few days we only ever communicated with Petrol.
Father went read but never replied to our texts, an
been called us through Petro's phone. By now, Petro felt
kind of like the priest's handler. Also, and again through Petro,
(09:10):
Father went asked for a list of questions that we
might ask, which we shared. But it was clear when
we spoke to him in person that he wasn't just
drifting along in the background. He was getting ready to
talk to us and preparing his responses. Other conversations were
happening before we got there too. Well. I spoke to
Father Damian this afternoon. You did very interested to hear
(09:35):
what you're really What did he say? I'm so curious. Um,
I think he would have liked to have been here,
but I would love to interview him. Do you think
he would let me? Probably not because he doesn't like us. Oh,
it's good that it's you. I don't like it. I'm
not the one that likes interviewing not I think him
(10:00):
or less him to the decision. If it's one of us,
it's you. And once we did actually get the interview started,
we were still worried how it might go. What felt
like some of the simplest questions had the most complicated answers.
I would love an introduction. State your name please for me,
and who you are in relation to Holy Cross? The
(10:23):
Holy quest doesn't exist any longer. Who you were in
relation to who was my name? Is probably the most
difficult time of answers, because we were not simply priests,
and we were not simply monks, but we were among
(10:47):
priests as such. This aside about ecclesiastical titles went on
for about a solid minute until he made his point,
and even that response felt like he was maybe preempting
later questions about his own titles. I never became a bishop,
but almost all of the other positions, at some point
or another I legitimately held. So getting back to what
(11:13):
my name is or what would you like to call
me tonight? I want to know what you would like
to be called. The name that was originally given to
me by the bishop was Gregory um okay, and your
relation to Holy Cross back then, what was it? I
was the founder and as long as we used a
title headmaster, then it was me. Sometimes Father went would
(11:44):
answer our questions, sometimes he refused. Then other times the
priests would go on long tangents where it felt like
he was trying to get Melanie and me to forget
what we asked in the first place. As we talked,
Petro would jump in to help fill the gaps m
and we went on like this into the evening. For
the next few hours. We'd cover the eparchy investigation, the
(12:07):
sex abuse allegations, and Sister Michelle's murder, and he'd tell
us aspects of this case that we've never heard before.
We'll pick up our interview after a break. Welcome back
(12:36):
to Sacred Scandal. When we started talking with Father Went
and Petrol, we didn't want to get too far ahead
of ourselves. Were worried they might kick us out if
we immediately jumped into the difficult stuff. So we started
simple with Holy Cross and how the idea came to
start a religious school, and we're basically where I started
(12:59):
dropped at first. I wanted something that was serious about
our religion, thanking our religion and talking about the Catholic system.
Whether it's Eastern Western, I don't care, but it was
that's how I grew up. So that was the thing.
I wanted, something serious about religion. Why if religion isn't serious,
(13:21):
what do we have? So that's why I was serious
because I said, this is serious. I've always heard of serious.
My mother said it was serious, my father said it was.
So that's the reason for religious And the thing is
I was always attracted, you know, to learning. I was
(13:43):
very happy. Most of the kids were screaming and yelling
that they had to learn Latin. I was very happy learning.
I thought it was always a help to us that
we were plugged in to the local school system, not
meaning the law, but the Catholic schools, and which you know,
(14:05):
some of them are dioecesan under a bishop, as some
of them are not ever under a bishop, and so forth,
so that there's the sort of the structures of how
they you know, so was Holy Cross Academy and monastery
under a bishop woll yes and no, okay, So as
(14:31):
soon as we were established as a monastery, and that
once you're talking about it a monastery that actually exists,
then there's certain things bishop has no right trying to
do over there, that sort of things. So monasteries are
(14:52):
usually run by monks, and if you have a diocesan
priest who knows nothing about monks, he's not going to
be too helpful at best. So when you found it
Holy Cross Academy UM and Monastery. As far as I understand,
you were under the jurisdiction of the Eparchy of Passaic,
(15:17):
New Jersey. Is that correct. I'm not going to touch
trance because it's fine for where we are. Though he
gave unclear answers about Holy Cross status within the Byzantine
Catholic Church. Father Went was more than happy to talk
about Bishop Andrew Pataki, who started the investigation into the
(15:39):
school and monastery. And we had a really incredible bishop
at one point, Andrew Pataki. And if if you've read
any Darrel Andrew um anyway, I don't want to get
a Bash Andrew session because Sister Michelle and I fell
(16:03):
into that too easily. Sister Michelle was not buying any
of what Andrew Patucki was trying to sell. Shove you
know what you feel in your own verbs. She didn't
have any interest in him and the from the get go,
and he pretty much since that's where it stood. But
(16:27):
before it really all got bad, let me backmap to them,
because you should hear Pataki was going to come what
they called vegetation and basically system. Michelle got me in
a corner and said You're going to have to see
to it that I don't punch him in the face.
(16:52):
It's your job that he doesn't leave this place, you know,
bring two black eyes. I counted as one of my
great errors of my life that one Pottaki was ordained
a bishop. I had an invitation to go to the
(17:12):
Holy Land, and I could either go to the Holy
Land or I could go to Pottaki's you know, Yeah,
this is cold an infroment. Believe it or not, it's
very fitting. So that's the thing. I went to the
in throement. I never regretted it more, and I never
(17:33):
got to go to the Hole Land. As he went
on about Pottaki, we didn't even have to ask. Father
went why he disliked the bishop so much? May I
tell you the question? Everyone would really want to know
what you're not asking? Um, what was Pottaki interested in?
Was he interested in Holycrost? This Holocaust? Heck no, what
(17:57):
would he like to have seen me fail? So? Any right?
When you know, and he would had his ideas immediately
obvious to me what he was going for. He wanted
me out of there, and that while I was gone,
(18:20):
the school could be foreclosed on by the diocese, you know,
specifically him that I have some bishop because we wanted
all the money. They wanted the money, and so that's
why he wrote that letter to the Vatican that leader.
It wasn't even that good. Did you hear this part
(18:41):
from someone else, a friend of a friend or We
asked if he knew the Vatican's verdict on Bishop attacky suggestions,
and he didn't really answer the question, but he said
the result was clear. But the point is ATTACKI, you know,
received response that I get thrown out. Did he get
(19:03):
what he wanted? No? And what is the process if
you want to switch from the Byzantine Catholic Church to
the o c A. As you guys did, How how
you go? How did you go about that? What was
the process? The pung process? Is it difficult? Is it? Well?
First of all, you have to get acquainted with what
(19:24):
is the Orthodox system of worship, So you have to
go through all these things which are only common sence. No,
I was just gonna say that we were practicing the
Orthodox way in the Catholic Church. That's what it was.
That's why we were business in. We were practicing the
Orthodox way in the Catholic Church because that's a branch
of Catholic Church, Eastern branch. That's why when we became Orthodox,
(19:47):
when the Orthox Bishop came to receive us in Miami,
he saw that our church, the econography was there, not
the statutes, because that's one of the major differences between
the two churches. You know, the econography is that the
music is very similar. The garments that the monks were
are the same. You know that the bishop said, you
don't have to change anything, you don't have to adapt,
you already practicing it. And so you had a good
(20:09):
relationship with the bishop, with every person and with the
other bishops of the church in America. We heard that
there was a little scandal within the o c a.
A Metropolitan Herman and Chondratic were accused of financial misconduct.
Let's break it down to the simple money, right. Chndratic
(20:31):
learned how to steal money. You know, Herman was apparently
I like him, I mean, let you know which Siddoman
I like him, but he didn't. Apparently they didn't keep
enough oversight. We brought up their next move from the
o c A To the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, but they
(20:54):
made it seem as if the Os investigation and their
switch was just a coincidence. They bought this land in
Ukraine years earlier and always planned to come here to
build a monastery in the Carpathian Mountains and the medical
center in Uzgarod. Leaving the o c A was simply
part of realizing that goal. So then you left the
(21:14):
o c A at some point, Right, we left because
we came here. Right, it's like we're changing jurisdiction. We
got permission from the traveled to the Orthodox bishop over
here that I would be able to receive us. Now,
almost ten years after coming to Ukraine, things changed again.
(21:37):
Even though the money they got from selling off Holy
Cross would go farther here, it would not last forever.
It sounded like the medical center never got steady business,
and they needed funds to buy supplies and to maintain
hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of equipment. It was
expensive and in the end it didn't work out. Now,
(21:58):
the Monk of Asill and Father Damien we're back in
North Carolina working in a grocery store to help them
get by. I heard um, I think we talked about
this yesterday, that they both had to get jobs. They
have to work now since they got back. Why why
is that? Why did they have to get you no money?
(22:19):
That's the one reason we went back because in America
you can make real money with real work. It doesn't
go that way here. Sometimes it does. And we're at
the point we're, you know, either we come to find
some legitimate way of bringing in you know, means to
(22:46):
support not just ourselves. But you have America going on,
you have Fortia going on, you have a hospital and
who did you see it? We did? We don't, we don't.
It's beautiful, Yeah, and that's must have our life's work.
(23:09):
Their life's work includes two monasteries and a small hospital.
But it was the first dream that they were a
part of Holy Cross Academy. That could have gone so differently. Now,
I just kind of want to know, like, yeah, like
did that affect you guys? Like that did that make
Did that make you the success? Everybody knows that. And
I think if we didn't have this incidents, we might
still have had the school to this day, and I
(23:31):
think our lives might have turned out very different. I
think I might have We probably would still have been
there right a possible We're stuff in there in Miami.
Coming up after a break, we get their side on
sister Michelle's murder and everything that happened after. Stay with us,
(24:05):
Welcome back to Sacred Scandal. I'm Paula Burrows and I'm
Melanie Bartley. Like the lawyers twenty years ago who investigated
the sexual abuse allegations, we were curious why the priests
from Holy Cross recruited fourteen and fifteen year old boys
instead of adults, and why they had to go all
the way to Ukraine to get them. Father went on.
(24:28):
Petrol told us that bringing over teenage recruits was not
the initial plan, but was the one that seemed to
work out best at the time. I wanted to clarif
us about it because you had why you created mechanics
from you creating another important thing that people might want
to know. You guys tried to have American people right,
and it just never worked out. You have candidates, you
(24:50):
said that, you know. Also people came, they tried, and
they left, you know, like there was nobody that would
stick up, you know, And that's why since they knew
him Ukraine, the new people more religious here, that there
was no chance to find somebody that would be there
for a long time. That was the idea. Wife and
the greg came to Ukraine to search. The first group
(25:11):
I had were all adult adolescence. The embassy you would say,
you're just trying to import people for work, you know
some of our work group. I said, no, that's how
it happened because the US Embassy told me go in
(25:31):
this direction and we'll see if we can catch to
some in America. So the Embassy was basically saying that
they had to be younger for for them to facilitate
their ones can be looking for jobs on Miami Beach
and getting younger Monk candidates who could also attend Holy
Cross Academy made their paperwork even simpler. That would be
(25:53):
the easiest thing. And if you remember what was our
second line of work, school, so we could right defeas
as ourselves. Petro's story of becoming a candidate was pretty
different to Mike's. He told us that he met father,
went the winter before coming to Miami and spent almost
six months in the candidate's house in Ukraine. Mike was
(26:15):
only there for one month before moving to Florida. Back then,
they both said Mike was kind of quiet and kept
to himself so much so that Petro had no memory
of Mike ever being at the candidate's house. Father Went
didn't really remember Mike's short month at the house in Ukraine, either,
but we asked if they would have noticed any red
(26:37):
flags about Mike if he had spent more than just
a few weeks at the training house. I'm trying to
be honest. I'm not going backwards at that point. I
don't understand any red flax. And it's very interesting. There's
later on, when there's case developed into more of a
case and all of this business that, you know, it
(27:01):
became interesting to see when did these things start actually
having meaning, you know, wonders being a kind of quiet
person start to mean or some kind of an unhealthily
quiet person. Father Went also told us that it wasn't
(27:27):
him who suggested Mike should come to Miami. I didn't
pick him. I could tell you it was. I came
to Zaka Pacha the first time with two priests. One
was a Jesuit and the other one excuse me, this
was a jesuit's father. He was not a priest, and
(27:50):
they basically took me all over and her father could
speak everything they speak over here Hungary and go down
the list and Friest's father that spoke all those languages,
you know, he said, oh, take this little small one.
I talked to him later, I said, remember a little
(28:11):
small one. I said it wasn't mine because I was
accused of that by Gail Levine and one of our
brilliant brain story. He's picked this one up, you know,
he was gearing from when they were in Zarcapata. I said,
remember how he picked this one out. We gotta check
a lot of it. Almost five years after starting the program,
(28:40):
Father One started to think Mike may not be a
good fit for the monastery after all, he said. Around then,
the monastic Canada's personality started to change. I began seeing
him has not fit again. With the other students, they
(29:00):
were you know, we had at nice school. The kids
were nice. You were there. No one was trankling another
student in the hallway, and you know, I'd go, I'm
saying hello, the people saying ah, I get them. Ma.
Carlo doesn't even say hello. Everyone in the hall is
being very polite. At out He's like, you know, because
(29:22):
is always treating me and I had no affair or anything.
What if you could in any way you know Jimmy
around to have something to do with why he is
not saying good afternoon, you know, as if Harley would
take anything out and even in a worst day, did
(29:43):
you think about that in retrospect, like after the murder
or did you remember noticing that before I was complaining
about him. I wanted to send him back. That's point
blank said. He was not what I star did this
about at this point when he was actually like that,
(30:04):
like I'm the enemy. You know, we said that us.
We brought him over and you know this was they
didn't fit in with the other students. Father went said
he talked to Father Damien about sending Mike home because
of his attitude, but it never happened. Before they could
send him back, Sister Michelle was dead and Mike confessed
(30:26):
to killing her. The day of the murder was difficult
for both of them. They were the only two from
Holy Cross to see what Mike had done to Sister Michelle. Petro,
who was twenty one at the time, was the one
who first found her body. When I opened the door,
(30:49):
I saw something was terribly wrong, you know, I said,
part of the body. I saw lots of blood. What
what I remember was that she was like lying behind
the better side. I only could see like, you know,
like half of legs sticking out, and I saw a
big cut on the side. And so as soon as
I get out of the house, I ran as fast
as I could to to to tell him and I said,
(31:12):
something is bad. I don't think system Michelle is alive.
And he immediately called number one without thinking about it.
So and that's when the police came and I rescued
and the end, and then I had to go back
over with them because I wanted me there. So we
went to the crime scene. You were you were at
the crime scene? Did you think it was part of
(31:34):
like a burglary or or something like, not really brigley,
because that was not much to steal, but who knows,
some kind of like a drug addict breaking in or
you know, something like that. I did think there's a
nursery in front of our property, and so I told
the place I said, that's the only thinker comes from
my mind otherwise, so you never imagined that first that
(31:56):
it was one of you, No way, you know, it
was literally the last thing I would think. You want
to know what I personally feel guilty about. I feel
guilty that I let Sister Rochelle down because you know,
I know a situation. You have fences everywhere, so the
(32:19):
police show up. What our report? There are some migrant
workers on the That's really what else could happen here?
Father Went was often accused of seeming unemotional after the murder.
People we talked to thought his tone sounded unconcerned on
the Nun one one call, or that he didn't seem
(32:40):
sad during Sister Michelle's memorial, but he says he was
dealing with things in his own way. I had a
lot of different emotions at different times. I can't say
I had the expected emotion at this I'm we of course,
(33:03):
are always told a part of our training keep the
stiff upper lip. And finally one morning I completely broke down.
It was the lower school, and now is it by
a time we were at the liturgy, you know, for
(33:26):
Sister Michelle's repose, it for the school. I didn't break down,
and some people, let's see he's not moved. So but
first of all, I'm not there to keep the different show.
I have people that all are how moved to us.
Now it's different place. Is that something that sticks with
(33:48):
you forever. Yes, but it's you know, I feel like
it's sounds a little stranger that I'm gonna say, but
I hope you're taking the right way. I had a
good relationship with sister Michelle, and you know, like to me, I,
I would talk to her about it, how awful it wasn't,
(34:11):
how sorry we were that this happened to her. So
you would pray to her and sort of speak through
prayer with her. Through prayer, I'm not you know. She
didn't answer back, But Patrick, did you need therapy? You
know that as soon as that happened, and there was
a lot of questioning by police, by different departments. By
(34:33):
this is that everything kind of like there was so
much going on and there was no time to think
about what you saw or you needed therapy from the police.
This idea that the police and other investigators were a
problem for Holy Cross was something that came up a
lot during this interview. You might have noticed Father went
(34:54):
already mentioned Assistant State Attorney gil Vine a few times,
and he talked more about it when we brought up
their legal strategy during the sex abuse investigation. The legal
strategy was with the sex abuse stuff was plead the
fifth plead. The fifth like, just don't talk and you're
gonna be fine, right because there's no evidence, there's no nothing.
So most of it was just procedural this. It's not
(35:19):
like I was feeling, Okay, don't wink thrice. So you
lost the war, you know? Heck, I don't know what
the war was. By the end of this. The point
is I felt the attorneys did a very good job.
After a few of the meetings that I went to
of the defense attorneys, what's gil Avin's Club, prosecutor prosecutors.
(35:43):
I was to those meetings, and when I heard what
they had to say about girl, I thought, Oh, it
wasn't too bad for me. She was a horrible person. Basically,
why do you say she was a horrible person? What
did what did she do? Name my experience, and I'm
not god. I'm not trying to say what I said.
(36:04):
You know, trust me, when you got to Heaven St.
Peter will say Gallevine is a horrible person. I might
be totally wrong about her, but it's certainly my experience.
When we pushed them on this, it was clear that
both father Went and Petro had a grudge against gay Levine.
(36:26):
They thought she was taking the side of the defense
attorney Edith Georgie. In doing that, they felt she was
helping to perpetuate an image of the priests as child
predators without any evidence other than Mike's allegations, and that
put the monastic candidates and their families through even more trauma.
(36:49):
Even though they were posing parties in the court. It
is George and and living, but they kind of like
gang up on this idea of possible abuse and all
that that they walked to done that. They were like scrutinous.
They sent different kinds of police departments to talk to
us psychologists and wanted to find any kind of thing
(37:09):
they could find, any kind of to confirm this. You know,
she was here in Ukraine too. She talked to me
Hallo Sperence. She talked to all of the parents candidates,
trying to find if somebody said anything or did they
see anything, you know, and she would lie to their face.
She would say horrible things that well less and I
mean not to us, but to our parents because we're
(37:30):
in the States that we were we abused there and
stuff like that, that it was intentional. Your kids are
going to table stuff. They were brought up a prostitution,
and I remember I was told that it was your
sibling back's mother who told her that we don't believe
anything you're saying, and you yourself must not have kids,
(37:50):
because if you had, you would not be talking like
this to us. And that's when she basically didn't us anymore,
so that short her time. Let's send down. Basically, basically,
we asked him about the story that all the police
(38:11):
and lawyers told us about the day of Mike's confession.
We brought up the moment they say father went Petro
and a lawyer showed up at the homicide department and
started asking if Mike was saying anything bad about the school,
that's not true. Do you remember who you talked to
when you went, Yeah, I remember detective Detective Nanny. No.
(38:34):
I definitely can say that I was there with him,
and there would have been no reason for him to
ask that. We were concerned about Mihailo by himself at
that time, you know, because you know he he was
a responsible party for him. We had to find out
what's going on, you know, because obviously you know, he
could have been hopefully addressed if it wasn't him, for example,
(38:55):
who did that So that first phone call that you
got from from his first the only call he's allowed
to make. The call he makes, he makes to you.
What was that like for you to pick up that
phone and speak to him? Was he remorseful? Was he scared? What?
(39:18):
What was Is he a relative of yours? Okay? Let more, No,
he was not too remorseful. I mean, you know you're
talking about this horrible thing. There was no you know,
for sad there in a good or bad sense of
(39:40):
the world. There was like canok aim atal effect? You know?
Did you ask him why did you do this? Well?
First of all, he was nothing one that told me.
The police told me. I don't know what he was
gonna say. It wasn't opening with anything. So I said,
I heard from the police that you else, sister Michelle,
(40:02):
and trying to think what was the next Do you remember? Yeah?
He you told me because I wasn't there when you
spoke to him, but you told him that he was
very flat my friend, and you asked him why did
you do it? And he didn't want to call her,
He wanted to hurt her. Did he ask you for help? No,
(40:22):
you know, I said, I have heard that the public
defender office. You know, I can't give you a very
good assistance, but if not, let me know. Never heard
from her again. Mike's told us that he never reached
(40:45):
out to Holy Cross again because after he opened up
about the sexual abuse, he no longer wanted anything to
do with the priests. But we always wondered why Fathers
went or Damien never tried to talk to Mike again either.
Father one told us that after the sexual assault allegations
were made, talking to Mike no longer felt like it
(41:06):
was possible. What category was I in the enemy, whether
or not I was ever would be or whatever? How
things fell out in the universe at that point in time.
How couldn't contact anybody that was possibly on the other side?
(41:28):
Couldn't meaning weren't allowed? Um, yeah, right, basically, yes, your
attorneys give you, advise them you can do whatever you want.
They never say don't do you know what kept you
from I guess twenty years later reaching out to be
(41:54):
I loose parents. Well, I didn't speak Ukrainian and candidate
vis of these parents correspondent and I would be there
and they would to ask him translate and that sort
of thing. But that's you know. I never called any
of the parents by myself. But in this particular situation
(42:16):
where you know, these two parents who were in this
little tiny village, you know, and and their son is
in a prison and they don't know what I mean,
they know that the sun did something, and that he's
saying a bunch of stuff and any of that. Did
you ever feel like, Okay, maybe I need to sit
down and talk to these folks and and and just
kind of you know, I I have a very positive
(42:39):
feeling from them from when they when I first got
to know them, and stuff with and so on at
this point, would I have felt comfortable or even able
to do any of this. No, I'm not never in
contact with them alone. It's always you know, Michaelo is
(43:00):
there and that's how we got in contact. Why don't
you talk? You would do a lot of this sort
of thing. Well, at the time we communicated to let us,
you know, he would write them, let us they write him.
Let us before this is before the murder. This is
just a are you talking I'm talking about after PATROLA.
Did you ever talk to them? Did you ever say,
(43:23):
you know, what, did you how did this boy become
what he became? Or do you have any conversations about
any of it with his parents. Were just tiny little time.
You have to understand that it was a bumpshef for
of us and and this thing is not like, okay,
the murder happened. Then a week later, you know, things clear.
Then a month later we were like, we can do
(43:44):
whatever we want. This thing two years and there was
a lot of investigations. There's a lot of people, lots
of things going on that there was a lot of
going on. And besides, we couldn't leave at that time,
you know, because it was an ongoing an investigation. We
couldn't do we can't live the United States, have to
be here and stuff. So that was basically now and
(44:07):
I don't think they had a phone at home at
that time that you could call. Well, besides the actual
hit on us psychologically and emotionally that this took place,
that we lost two members at the same time and
one killed each other, you know, um, besides that effect
again personally, we had to deal with a lot of
(44:29):
other stuff going on. We had to think about ways
how to save the school because as you know, we
had a drop in student population and so we had
to that. That also took a lot of our attention
in the meantime this thinct two tears, that we had
to speak to different attorneys, to two different kinds of police,
even child police, and all that stuff, and UM kind
(44:56):
of lost my track. After talk into Father Went and
Petro for a few hours, we still hadn't asked anything
about the accusations of sexual abuse. To be honest, it
wasn't on the list of questions we sent over either.
We were afraid that if we put it on there,
Father Went would never have agreed to talk to us
in the first place. But it was getting late and
(45:20):
we could sense that we'd be rapping things soon. Then
Melanie got brave and started asking what we've been thinking
about all of these years. This is a hard question
for me to us and I'm but I'm gonna ask it. Um,
did did any of you ever feel that maybe he
(45:42):
was telling the truth with Father Damien, that maybe there's
a possibility, even the slightest possibility, that Father Damien was
abusing the Halo. I would like to answer that not
exactly as you asked. So when Michailo turned a teen,
you know, he had been to Ukraine as Father Damien's
(46:06):
translator and I said, you're eighteen. You can go by
yourselves or get the plane. And I said, now sit
down and tell me what is your your own view
of Father Damien? Was everything you know between you and
(46:29):
him the way you would want it to be. If not, what? Basically,
I'm giving them open ended questions. Feed me if there's
anything wrong. Nothing was going on. We were being investigated
by Gail Evin's cat. Nothing you know, this is tabulas
And that's what I asked him, and he said, no,
(46:50):
everything's fine. Why would you ask him that? Why not
if something was not right in your monastery? Would you
like to find out from a candidates mother. I was
not asking these questions because just think if anything with it. No,
there was more innocent than that. But it was a
(47:11):
type of thing I would always do. Did you have
any problems? I guess my question is had you heard
anything about Father Damien before that would lead you to
ask me, Halo, if anything inappropriate was happening? Okay, So
it was just like a preventative sort of like the
routine measure to ask that question. Questions like that question
(47:34):
like that, because it wasn't centered around sex anything between
you and God Bob, it could be that you know,
he leaves his door open a crack and you wanted
a foot. That was a totally open added question. It
had no sex as an outcome abc D sex. No,
(47:57):
it wasn't like that, but it was for anything he
wanted to. UM another question that I'm sorry, it's another
uncomfortable one, UM that I need to ask it because
we're here and UM. A lot of people would say
that there was something suspicious going on between the two
(48:20):
of you, because you you said so yourself in the
interrogation tapes that when you would travel together, that you
would share a bed. What a bed? Who is doing
this reporting? We reminded them that in the perpetuated testimony
from the monastic candidates, some of the boys, including Petro,
(48:43):
said that these two shared rooms and sometimes beds in hotels. Uh,
you know, I don't remember what I said, but I
mean if we went on vacation, for example, you know,
we used to rent a minivan and you would like
be in the hotel room and we would like west
you have something that we would like. You know, you
would like there's usually two beds in the hotel room
(49:05):
and you would just be would like hang that you
know that as the guys said, and just you know,
sit next to each other or what you're watching, but
not not nothing sexy or anything like a bed or
like just But I can't remember exactly what they said.
But do you you mind if I enter checked the question?
Isn't the bottom of that question? However you want to
(49:29):
form a phrase or whatever? Were you ever a subject
of how to file activity? You know it was do?
Isn't that what you want to know? How many otherwise
you could answer on But that's the question you want
to answer. Were you abused? That's the question. Please write
(49:54):
it down somewhere m m M. Before we wrapped things up,
(50:16):
we had one last thing we wanted to ask them.
We knew that the murder and everything that happened after
caused the downfall of Holy Cross and took away the
world they built in Miami. Even though they started over
in North Carolina and rebuild things here in Ukraine, it
still felt like a huge loss, not just for them,
(50:36):
but for everyone who cared about the school. We wanted
to know if they could ever forgive Mike for killing
Sister Michelle and setting off everything that brought Holy Cross down.
Jesus Christ said, unless you forgive your brother their sins.
Your sins will not be forgiven you as are not
(50:56):
my words, but I lived by them, you know what.
I feel comfortable. That wasn't a question. If you know,
I'm waiting for St. Peter and Missa and I were
there and St. Peter's you asked the question. That's time,
you know, there's nothing to ask. Do I forgive him? Yes?
(51:17):
Am I happy about being put in my place? No?
But I definitely do for my heart forgiven because I
know otherwise I'm not going to be forgiven either. Those
are Jesus words, and I take them seriously as much
today as when I started. Thank you. I understand you,
(51:39):
and I also a little bit a little by the
same principles, you know. But for me, well, I hope
that God forgives you, you know, that's my thing. But personally,
I'm still very angry with him because he he really
did some terrible things. He undermined for the gregrest great work.
He douched a lot of lives in the negat their way.
(52:00):
You know, all the students why we're here talking about
this and other students who heard about their parents who
heard because that's to go through a lot of hardships,
and I think changed the direction of overall in personal lives,
you know, by this terrible act. So I don't think.
I don't want to see him and to forgive. It's
(52:21):
not my thing. I just don't want to deal with
his thing. I just hope God forgives him, and that's it.
How do you feel about him getting out and coming
back to this area? Um, you better not come around
my way. That's it, I'll say, father, How do you
(52:45):
feel about it? Um? Hm? I mean you will die sometime.
I'm aware about if it's, you know, his second go around.
M past Vans saying it doesn't keep me up at night,
maybe it should. It was late when we finally packed
(53:17):
up to leave the monastery. The light from the village
in the valley below made the mountains glow against a cold,
black sky. We loaded the car and started on that
four and a half hour drive back to Leviv, a
drive that's stretched to five and then six hours and
then more as we crept down slush covered mountain highways
(53:39):
in a near white out, though we hardly noticed the
danger of it all because we had plenty to talk about.
Everything that Mike has told us has checked out I
don't think he's lied to us about anything. I don't
think we're ever going to know. Are those like military drugs.
(54:04):
Before we came to Ukraine, the Russian military was already
starting to surround the border. People in the western part
of the country seemed less bothered by the news, like
it was just a problem for the eastern half of Ukraine.
We talked about the danger of an invasion before we arrived,
and even had our own plan to walk across the
border into Slovakia if it happened and we were trapped
(54:26):
in a war zone. Now it's crazy to think that
not long after we left, those soldiers have attacked Ukraine
and the air strikes hit not far from where we
stayed in Leviv. Since it all started, we've been keeping
in touch with everyone we met, and we're hoping to
share some updates with them later in the series, So
(54:46):
keep listening for those and we'll be back next week
with another episode of Sacred Scandal. Sacred Scandal is a
(55:12):
production of Exile Content Studio and partnership with I Heart
Radio's Michael Duta podcast network. Sacred Scandal was created and
produced by Melanie Bartley and me Paula Barrows. Our senior
producer is Dennis Funk of Written in Air. The executive
producers are Rose Red and Nando Villa. Production mixing and
(55:34):
sound design by Helena de Groot. Our production assistant is
Imani Leonard. The show is fact checked by Kimberly Winston.
Original music and final audio mixing comes from Patrick Hart
and special thanks on this episode to Julia Terasuk and
Travis Roig. If you'd like to reach out, email us
(55:58):
at hello at Sacred Scan podcast dot com and you
can follow us on Instagram at Sacred Scandal m
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