September 28, 2023 • 62 mins
Ed Buck now serves a 30-year prison sentence. As this terrible era ends, a new chapter begins with voices from the heart of the community revealing their strategies to not only survive, but thrive.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
In this podcast, we're going to talk frankly but sensitively
about some tough issues, including sexual abuse, drugs, and suicide.
If you or someone you know is suicidal in the
US Down nine eighty eight, check out this podcast notes
page for information on LGBT plus mental health resources in
your community.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Welcome to this bonus episode of Shattering the System. I'm
Scenari Glnton ed Buck is currently serving his three hundred
and sixty month sentence in federal prison. That's thirty years
and it's effectively a life sentence. Now. The reason that
we wanted to do this podcast in the first place
was we didn't think that ed Buck was an anomaly
(00:45):
and we wanted to do something different with this episode.
So often these kind of true crime podcasts aren't made
by the communities that are being covered. So we thought
we'd gather a group of gay men from the community
that Jamel Moore and Timothy Dean were part of Los Angeles,
And after spending so much time thinking about the darkest
parts of gay black life in the city, we were
(01:07):
looking for something a little more hopeful. So a few
weeks ago I sat down with an amazing group of
young men. They are all gay black Out and in
various ways a part of the ballroom community that we
heard about in earlier episodes of this show. So we're
going to start off getting an understanding of the effects
the death of Jamel Moore and Timothy Dean had on
(01:28):
gay black men who come to Los Angeles hunting for
a dream. And then the second part of the show,
we'll hear from the founders of the Black and Missing Foundation.
We'll hear why some victims stories captured the imagination of
the media, and why black victims often don't. But first
my conversation with a group of young men who are
(01:48):
part of the ballroom scene with a connection to the
victims of ed Buck. If you can go around the
table and have each of you just quickly introduce yourself,
your name, and your ballroom name, maybe that is a
good thing to start with.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
My name is Cali de Quan and I am now
a double O seven. In the ballroom scene.
Speaker 4 (02:11):
Hello, I am the Roman Woods. I go by Rome
Ebony in the ballroom scene.
Speaker 5 (02:16):
Hello World.
Speaker 6 (02:17):
For the few who might not know, I am the
ever legendary Byron Keaton the Key Key scene, I am
in the international iconic House of Juicy couture and on
the mainstream scene, I am in the International Hall of
Fame house of mi Akei Mouglaire. I will never forget
(02:38):
that the second that had happened around my time just
moving to Los Angeles, and that was actually the first
protest I attended with community members.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
So the second death was Timothy Dean And so you
you went to a protest. Where was that?
Speaker 5 (02:54):
Yeah, this was actually what Hollywood I side of Airbus
home with.
Speaker 6 (02:57):
This is when we knew for sure that the community
was out of hand, and we knew that this was
beyond intention, that this was a monster we were dealing with. Right.
I have friends that did the documentary as well, so
I'm very familiar with this case. And to me, this
was also dark reality. As you were even mentioning your
(03:17):
clip that I knew that Los Angeles was another place.
So there was another battle that you had the fight
outside of being the dream seecret writer coming here to
live the life of your dreams. But this was something
else that another barrier that was now in place.
Speaker 7 (03:33):
Help me unpack that.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Yeah, he's like the La thing, exeparate like being So
there's the dream of being in La Yes, and then
there's being black and gay in LA.
Speaker 5 (03:43):
And the reality of that. Right.
Speaker 6 (03:45):
So even for example, Tim was at the time I
was a seat filler, professional audience going all that, and
he was too. We were in the same agency, a
sorrow standing on only. So this was also a cold right,
which is when and most things, as we all know,
the world is so vast, but nothing really hits you
(04:07):
until it hit home, when it's when it's in proximity, right,
So when that hit that's when I knew that I
had to stand up.
Speaker 4 (04:16):
I was highly sought after by people like Ed buck By,
like predatory people, and by people that had good intentions.
You know, whenever somebody sees something fresh in any in
any arena, they gravitate to it and they want to
see what it's about.
Speaker 6 (04:31):
Same coming to Los Angeles, I really didn't throw myself
into like dating.
Speaker 5 (04:35):
It's actually recent, more recent for.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
Me and then as black men in general, I think
we're fetisige like as a stereotype too, based off of
our physical features. What we packing the girls to the aeah,
you know what I'm saying, just the muscles, the strong like.
I think we're just fetishage as a as a whole.
Speaker 4 (04:55):
I mean there's predators come in any shape, form color.
You can be fetishized for your youth. I was nineteen
when I moved out here. There's people that enjoy calling
me son.
Speaker 6 (05:04):
I have a lot of my best friends have dated
inter racially. I've never right, so they have come and
told me dirt horror stories about especially how most of
those relationships end. I've had another friend who at one
point was partying, and he told me how they were
engaging the intercourse and the guy did ask him to
kind of put a bump, which is I believe cocaine
(05:27):
in or crack. Right, I'm a sober Susie. I'm the
friend that don't smoke, I don't drink. I'm the desnetty driver.
I was a church girl.
Speaker 5 (05:33):
I was all that.
Speaker 6 (05:33):
So I do get my education from my friends and
through culture. Right, So he were telling me how, like
the guy ended up even sneaking some on his condiment
at one point, just so you know, because you know
that enhances the high. So hearing all these stories, like
you said, coming to La knowing it to be La
La laying and everything being sold, you know, cupcicks and
slush sheets, didn't having to realize that these are the
(05:55):
horrid realities of having survival sex with my community.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Right, I'm gonna sense you talked about coming here. Why
don't we play the clip, which is from Jammel's diary.
Hear Jamell's words.
Speaker 8 (06:10):
I pray that I can just get my life together
and make it make sense. I helped so many people,
but I can't seem to help myself. I honestly don't
know what to do. Become addicted to drugs the worst
one at that. Ed Buck is the one to think.
He gave me my first injection of crystal myth. It
(06:31):
was painful, but after all the troubles, I became addicted
to the pain and the fantasy.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
You can hear the pain and anguish. Jamel did the
best he possibly could to break his addiction. You know,
I got to say, it's not just the fact that
ed Buck introduced Jamel to slamming that's so appalling, or
the way he treated his victims. It was the illusion
that he cared about them. There are so many gay
white men who I've run into who say shit like
(07:04):
I'm not racist, I love black men, or I only
date black men. But then every single part of how
they act dehumanizes black men. I'm one hundred percent no,
I'm actually one thousand percent sure that ed Buck said
that he loved black men. But here's the thing. Ed
Buck paid black men to do crystal meth so that
(07:26):
he could take pictures of them in underwear. He wasn't
really interested in sex necessarily, but he paid to humiliate,
in torture black men. For instance, he paid them to
let him call them nigger.
Speaker 7 (07:40):
Well, wow, what a cut off.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
I mean, the crazy nonsense that white men have said
to me in this town in relation to sex. And
I'm wondering when you hear about, you know yet an
ed Bucks fetish for black men, what what experiences or
what thoughts do you have when you hear that?
Speaker 7 (08:03):
Mhmm.
Speaker 4 (08:05):
This is room speaking. When you survive, you do, survival
is u. Survival is a hell of a thing.
Speaker 7 (08:12):
You know.
Speaker 4 (08:12):
I can't speak for them, but I've definitely been approaching
the club and so you know, hey, I'll give you
this amount for this and that on dating apps. I'm
jin you know, when you walk in West Hollywood, it's
the hooting and the hollering and the grabbing and the groping. Uh,
it's it's the cat calling and the grooming from your elders,
even in the black community. It's the offering of drugs,
(08:35):
it's the offering of family with all you want is
to fuck.
Speaker 7 (08:39):
It's so many things.
Speaker 4 (08:41):
Predators are a plenty, you know, So it's just it's
so many.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Things me personally CALLI speaking, I didn't come across like
fetishization by people until I was on these social apps
like Jagged Grand didn't last that long, but there's times
like I will only experience this kind of stuff, like
people messaging me about like my BBC or blacks only
(09:11):
and they're profile and they're a whole white person or
BBC only or It wasn't until like honestly, I got
out here that I realized that it was actually a thing.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
So what does it feel like when you're in West
Hollywood and someone's like, I don't like personally speak ahead, yeah.
Speaker 6 (09:29):
This is Byron speaking saying. So I realized historically, I've
always had a gift to foster community. So I only
go where I feel community, right, I only tech to
go to We's Hollywood on Black Night, which is our
only two nights of showcasing, which is Thursday, bb and Sunday, right,
So I'm intentional if there is not a black space
(09:53):
and We's Hollywood are black showcasing or not beaten there?
Outside of that, because I have you know, been out
any other nights, it does feel overwhelming. I do feel
like a fish out of water, like I said, just
kind of socially. Now, let's be clear, I have a
few eateries and a few like the lifestyle. Wise, I
do enjoy what's Hollywood. Shout out to that fro Yo.
(10:16):
They just cloth all that, you know, I love the
ice cream. But socially, ah in that yeah, and I wouldn't,
I would not go out.
Speaker 7 (10:24):
We has been Callie speaking here.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
We has been like the area where I run into
the most ignorant white people especially but why I can't
even call them buch queens the white gay people. And
that's just but queen is a ballroom term for a
gay male. Yeah, yeah, not yeah basically and yeah, we hole.
I don't like the energy of it just because of
(10:47):
like just like for example, I can be walking down
the street and see Byron or it's just another brother
in general, and like where I'm from the South, it's
like we speak. If I look you on your eye.
We're going to speak to each other when I mean
we hold is daggers, like especially when it comes from
like white gay males. And I don't want to call
it racism or anything like that. I do honestly feel
(11:08):
like it's just a cultural difference because I'm from the South.
These people are probably raised in the suburbs of wherever
they're from, you know, and they are cut from a
different cloth.
Speaker 7 (11:18):
I didn't think that's a black thing. I say this
all the time.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
It's like when like half the world's problems will be
solved if white people understood that when a black person
looks at you in the face and says hello, you're
supposed to respond. That is I go through five cities
in fifteen years, and that is no matter where I go,
I'm like, hey, how you doing, and like.
Speaker 3 (11:38):
Yeah, I mean, we hope majority of that time happen.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
But when you were what you were in but you
had to have experiences, So like what were the experiences
that led you to have this opinion about West Hollywood.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
Social events like gay events prides that I'll go.
Speaker 7 (11:53):
To where do you find your community? Ball where we
make it?
Speaker 4 (12:00):
Ye Like, we'll talk even in like the black straight community,
we're ostracized, and there's like this stigma against us that
we're going to be loud and belligerent and flamboyant. And
that's okay if we are, because that's our truth and
we have a right to our truth, just like they
have a right to theirs. So we've been creating space
wherever the fuck we can, Like it's it's like a
(12:22):
constant war just to be ourselves and to have a
safe space, especially for queer people of color, Like there
is no designated area for us. We're always visitors in
somebody else's shit. Like literally, when we leave, the white
gays come in, and I say white gays, like this
(12:44):
is I'm not a prejudiced person or anything like that,
but there is a clear shift with how they're treated,
with how they're approached with certain things. There's just a clear,
a clear shift. Like it it's crazy almost.
Speaker 6 (13:00):
But yeah, also I can value This is Byron speaking
adding value to that point, which is another reason why
I have to ballroom for that. I do feel that
Ballroom is the nucleus of queer fellowship, especially for the
black see me black and brown group. Let's be clear,
and that's well all I've known historically, and even in
(13:22):
those classes, even at the functions, being amongst the girls,
it's where I usually tend to vibe. So also taking
accountability in the context of we hold, I find my
comfort and home with black and brown bodies. So that's
who I tend to fellowship with, which is why when
I don't see that or a nice amount of that,
I am or I find I'm uncomfortable, right so, and
(13:45):
I don't put myself through that on comfort, so I
tend to only curate mostly ballroom spaces of black and
brown core spaces for that to create a safety.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
Net, I'm kinlie speaking. I kind of also do feel
like racism still kind of plays a major part, and
that too, is just very hidden, like it's not out
in the air, you know.
Speaker 7 (14:06):
I do feel like it's.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
Not necessarily hidden because it's in plain sight.
Speaker 9 (14:13):
But I feel like.
Speaker 7 (14:15):
There's black Knight for God's sakes.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
Yeah, you know, have to be an urban night and
we you know what I'm saying, like that should already
let you know what kind of what kind of space
that we ho was designed for.
Speaker 4 (14:26):
The lines are clearly drawn. It's kind of apparent this
is shattering the system. More from my conversation about being
black and gay in Los Angeles with members of LA's
ballroom community. So one of the more interesting interviews that
(14:48):
I did was with a Letlow query at Bucks lawyer
black Man uh inac You know, we went in an
NAACP And I always think when I talk to him
or hear him that he is a version of me.
Speaker 7 (15:03):
Like I'm like, we're almost the same age.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
We went to the same type of school, just like
you know, he went to Beverly Hills.
Speaker 7 (15:10):
I went to a fancy school Chicago.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
The whole thing, bus, all those things, and I the
transition that I almost want to make is in hearing
about this, is there any do you? How do you
see ed Buck in this?
Speaker 7 (15:23):
Is there any empathy?
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Is there any?
Speaker 10 (15:25):
Like?
Speaker 3 (15:26):
So Cali speaking, I don't have empathy for him. I
could say I I won't even have sympathy for him,
to be honest, but I do feel like everybody makes
a choice, and everybody has a it was responsible for
their own decision. So me putting myself in the victim shoes.
(15:49):
If I know that I'm homeless right now, or if
I know that I'm looking for a shelter or any
kind of like resources, and I'm getting on.
Speaker 7 (15:59):
These apps to look for it.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
Anything can happen out of that, Like I'm literally signing
up for anything that can come out of this.
Speaker 7 (16:08):
Yeah, but yeah, I think yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
And like, I can't put all the blame on I
wouldn't put all the blame on him. I do, but
I do feel like he is monstrous for the.
Speaker 4 (16:20):
Like, yeah, okay, I think the word we're looking for
for eed Bucket's pity.
Speaker 7 (16:25):
I pity him.
Speaker 4 (16:25):
I feel sorry that a being would stoop so low
as to inject other human beings with drugs and embarrass them.
Everybody has their own fetishes and their own things that
they're into. Hey, I don't yuck anybody's young, but when
that young is poisonous and disastrous and tainted and carnal
(16:46):
and evil.
Speaker 7 (16:47):
And vile, I don't.
Speaker 5 (16:48):
I don't.
Speaker 4 (16:49):
I don't have empathy for you because I can't put
myself in your shoes.
Speaker 7 (16:52):
That's just not that's not what I can do. And
for the victims, for the people, for.
Speaker 4 (16:57):
The young men that walked into those rooms and that
allowed that to happen, I can empathize with them. I
can I can empathize with them because I've been a
young man that was broke. I've ran out of rouse
with Chicken my freaking freshman year here because I was
so broke. Like, so I can understand when somebody says, hey,
(17:17):
I'll give you a thousand more dollars. You know how
much a thousand dollars is to some of that somebody
that has nothing. Do you know how much one hundred
dollars is to somebody that has nothing?
Speaker 6 (17:25):
Like, yeah, well I don't I buyron kitchens. Do not
pity ed buck or emphathize, well I do. I love
your yeahs. But my thing is he's the poster child
of what do we I think most fear when we
into those spaces of allowing intercourse or fetish played with
white men. That he is the peak of that, the
(17:47):
pinnacles in my eyes.
Speaker 5 (17:49):
But yes, do you see him?
Speaker 2 (17:50):
I mean I sort of see him as in a
in a hot moment talking to somebody. It was like, oh,
you're like, this is just a continue You're like a
buckets on And You're right, You're not that far away.
Speaker 5 (18:06):
You see what I'm saying. Yeah, Yeah, So that's why
to me love black men.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
That's what he's like.
Speaker 4 (18:10):
Yeah, yeah, necessary by any means necessary.
Speaker 5 (18:15):
Concluding, I thought, yeah, I do. I do not he's
to me, I could say he's the ault.
Speaker 6 (18:20):
He's the leader of what we fear, the fetish to be,
especially in the community and especially in a place like
Los Angeles where people look at this place for the fantasy,
for the life enhancement that it is right.
Speaker 5 (18:33):
So yeah, to me, he's.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
And it can be it definitely like Los Angeles can be.
Like I said, I feel like it all depends on
the choices you make personally for yourself.
Speaker 5 (18:44):
I love Los Angeles.
Speaker 7 (18:45):
We you know, it's funny. I was.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
I was. I used to think that life was your choices,
like oh I decided to move to l A or
blah blah blah. Then you realize then I started to realize, like,
oh no, I was just.
Speaker 5 (18:58):
Like I was.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
I was the river yea that was moving along.
Speaker 5 (19:02):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
It was just like, oh, I didn't choose to be
in LA I didn't choose not to do this, Like
a lot of these choices were set in front of
me as if they were choices.
Speaker 4 (19:10):
You can equate that to like you a young man
a nineteen year old man. Just say, for instance, going
into a man like at Buck's house and him saying, hey,
I'll give you like one hundred more dollars. I'm hungry.
You know he's hungry. What is the choice that he
has there? I can either eat and take these drugs
because I know I'm strong, I'm nineteen, I could take
on the world. I'm not going to get addicted to this.
I'm going to do these drugs and I'm going to
(19:32):
get this money. I'm going to eat, you know. So
that's just that's the choices that they were dep I
just heard what you said, and I was like, wow,
that's the same thing that happened to them. They just
got caught up in the stream kind of a decision
that was made for them already.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
I would disagree because I still feel like like even
if me, for example, putting myself in a situation where
I need one hundred dollars to get some food or
something like that, like knowing what's about be put into
my body, I would still fight between is this value?
Do I value this to get what I need to get?
Speaker 7 (20:06):
Right?
Speaker 4 (20:07):
Same here, But I'm some people people come from different
background I can only that's what I can only empathize,
I can only put myself in that.
Speaker 7 (20:16):
So he was feasting on the vulnerable.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
I feel like people who are in that situation are
super vulnerable and probably don't know no other way out
and gotta do what they gotta do.
Speaker 4 (20:24):
Like I said, I've definitely run out of routs with
Chicken because I didn't want to ask.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Well, but what about empathizing or your feeling about the victim?
Speaker 7 (20:32):
I mean, you said you've been in that situation.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
But yeah, yeah, because probably because they look like me,
like you know what I'm saying, and I know how
it's like, I know how it feels to be broke.
I know how it feels to be faced with a
decision that feels like but some people don't have the
will power or some people don't have like yeah, to
be able to make those kind of decisions.
Speaker 6 (20:52):
Also to like I said, I've seen so many different
situations and this is Byron speaking were and also on
the thriller that they're chasing because I like, I had
a friend where he was a privilege right, but I
realized he had a jones for stealing, like he would
take things. He got a thriller taking step out of
the store without paying for it.
Speaker 5 (21:13):
And he had money.
Speaker 6 (21:13):
We all have money, and like all you had to
tell them who that brought dis comfort to me. If
we're gonna be friends, like you walking out, I don't
know if somebody chasing after me because this is your thrill,
right and even knowing one of the victims who had
passed and just knowing his ambition when we would be
out on set, not knowing how like sometime, which is
why I'm also protective involved in spaces what the leaders teach,
(21:35):
because I do know how some of you are taught
to sell their bodies in certain spaces or certain mentors,
like this is kind of what you got to get
used to, right And no, it's you don't always have
to you do.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Have the people told you this is the people.
Speaker 5 (21:50):
You'll be surprised.
Speaker 6 (21:51):
This is why no, no, really speak to the horbles.
Speaker 4 (21:54):
Go ahead, brother god oh oh doesn't really work like
a common thing, like it's still happening right now. When
I first came out here, it was like, oh, no,
you're selling some dick like you want to hear a cut?
Oh yeah, ah, you like to smoke weed? Oh wow?
Who knew food costs money? You came out here on
a scholarship. But it's so like you're asking your mind
(22:14):
for everything. How manly is that? Like you know, you
knew you can make your own money.
Speaker 7 (22:19):
This is it's easy. Just come hang out with me,
you know.
Speaker 4 (22:22):
Okay, you end up in one hotel room, one stake,
then another state, another hotel room.
Speaker 7 (22:27):
Okay, that was some quick money. That was easy.
Speaker 4 (22:29):
I didn't have to do nothing. I didn't have to
do too much of nothing. I didn't have to give
too much of myself. And then you leave pieces of
yourself in different area codes and realize your like shambles
are like literally a fraction of your former self.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Well, that's a good time to play. That's clicked. Can
I tell you that one of the most surreal things
is to hear the lawyer for Ed Buck getting misty
eyed about gay black men. I talked to Query for
two hours in downtown in Hollywood. Aside from defending that Buck,
because that's your job. Yes, what do you say to
(23:06):
the young man who's moving to West Hollywood Jamel Moore
of today, the young person who's comes to Hollywood. What
advice do you give to that young person who's arriving today?
Speaker 11 (23:20):
The la is a jungle. You gotta be careful. I
would just you know, hope that you don't get involved
in anything that involves you, you know, doing drugs, because
that's just a bad it's a cliche path.
Speaker 5 (23:36):
In Hollywood.
Speaker 11 (23:37):
It's an la cliche and it just leads.
Speaker 7 (23:42):
To nothing good.
Speaker 11 (23:44):
And you matter, you matter.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
The vigor with which you defended mister buck. Do you
think that that's in the message to gay black men
that they matter?
Speaker 5 (23:58):
I think that I.
Speaker 12 (24:01):
In doing my job.
Speaker 11 (24:02):
And this again is the this is where you compartmentalize
as a lawyer. This is what makes this is one
of the hard parts about being a lawyer, And what's
so unique about being a lawyer is you have to
compartmentalize because all I had to focus on defending my client.
(24:23):
I couldn't focus on the message I was sending to
young gay black men.
Speaker 7 (24:32):
Well, when he calls a lay a jungle, is he right? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (24:37):
Because there are so many different things that you can
get yourself into that can and come to a different outcome,
that can lead it to a different outcome.
Speaker 5 (24:45):
Honestly, yeah, I went that.
Speaker 6 (24:48):
I said that was beautiful language because I had not
envisioned it as a jungle, I would say more so
of a maze. But when he said a jungle, I
did see the marriage of a jungle and a maze,
to be honest.
Speaker 5 (25:00):
So but yeah, he is right in that context for sure.
Speaker 7 (25:04):
So if La is jungle, what lessons have you learned
from the jung? La is a jungle and he's a vulture.
Speaker 4 (25:09):
He gnawled on the carcass of black gay men's plights
and then acted like it didn't matter. You used very
big words, and it was very beautiful to listen to
La as a jungle.
Speaker 7 (25:23):
Okay, and you're defending a tiger.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
This is Calie speaking a few things that I've learned
in La. Not everybody is your friend. You are who
you hang around, and it's super easy to get thrown
off track.
Speaker 6 (25:38):
Yes, and with that's so funny you say that because
one of the lessons that I, Byron have learned is
that I remember when I first got here, I saw
a lot of friends get chased out of here. Actually,
but then the first couple of weeks I realized what
distinguished me from them my focus. So the focus and
your intention on why you're out here, making sure you
keep that at the forefront of everything right to me,
(25:58):
that's how you will navigate not only the jungle, but
your own personal definition and for fearing or what success
is and finding it out here and night.
Speaker 4 (26:07):
That gentleman, is a pure example of everybody black and
your brother, everybody that you feel to share the same
values and ideals that you do just as not. Okay,
So that's just something to accept.
Speaker 7 (26:21):
What about the police? What about about the police?
Speaker 6 (26:25):
Now, let me Alan be speak. I have a lens
on this because.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
This is this is funny to me. Yeah, so please
tell me about the police. So you have a specific ones, Let's.
Speaker 5 (26:36):
Be clear and just.
Speaker 6 (26:37):
I want only because this is distinguishment. I come from
Saint Louis, you know, I come from the Ferguson era
of Mike Brown, right, So coming from like a Saint
Louis where we are taught to not even fear the
police but actually stairway, I think that's a black thing
period to stay away and disconnect from the police. My
(26:58):
experiences in Los Angeles have been quite different. I like,
what I'm going to knock on this table, but like,
I haven't been pulled over. He like, no, it's it's
really been pleasant compared to where I come.
Speaker 5 (27:11):
From if that makes us right?
Speaker 6 (27:13):
Uh, still just knowing culturally, you know, you don't fuck
with the police.
Speaker 5 (27:17):
Let's me think come home.
Speaker 6 (27:18):
But coming from from I'm from my Anthony Hamilton voice.
It's been distinguished from Saint Louis and coming out here,
so well, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
What about is there a difference between say, how you
feel in West Hollywood or other places? You're you're you're laughing,
You're like, you have a differences.
Speaker 4 (27:38):
Everybody's so nice and so nice. Oh my god, they
pull you over and they're so nice.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
One of the moments during the podcast that I thought
was interesting, I interviewed the former mayor of West Hollywood
and we talked about the Sheriff's police. Were you satisfied
with the Sheriff's department when you were in the city.
Speaker 13 (28:01):
I think that the Sheriff's department in many ways did
a great job and in many ways was very challenged.
To have a city of thirty six thousand people that
could on any given night quadruple just because of who
was coming in to go to the night life. That
makes your job and your responsibilities very difficult. It's not
(28:26):
like you're patrolling bedroom community of thirty six thousand people
that goes to sleep at ten o'clock at night. But
I will also say because of that, they had to
be prepared for a different kind of experience. And I
think there were ways that the department fell short in
(28:47):
terms of the expectations of the community as it related
especially to cultural competency.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
And there's no like, oh, in order to come the
West out Like in my mind, there would be like, oh,
there is this sort of special training, or maybe I
want to know this, or but there's none of that
in your shade.
Speaker 13 (29:06):
You should head requirements. No, there there was discussion that
certain trainings happened, and I asked that question at a
public meeting, and I just asked someone from the station
who was a sergeant, what sort of training he had
had as it related to LGBTQ plus cultural competency. And
(29:30):
he said that he had been trained on the flags.
That was literally his answer.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
Oh, trained on the.
Speaker 13 (29:37):
Flag, literally the flags, that was his answer, and so
pride flags. He didn't even say Pride flags, he just
said the flags. So when that is an answer that
you get from a sheriff sergeant who is dedicated to
the West Hollywood station, it is troubling. To think that
(29:59):
not everyone at the station could receive the kind of
training one might expect in order to properly serve the
LGBTQ plus community and keep people safe.
Speaker 3 (30:09):
Someone want to respond, Yeah, it's kit. It's quite startling
that a chief or a share sergeant sergeant is the
least knowledgeable about LGBTQ or the community that he's serving
or that they're serving.
Speaker 7 (30:26):
But it goes to show you.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
How much inequality that not only our community have the
LGBT community have, but the black LGBT community have as well.
Speaker 6 (30:38):
And then this go to other concerns where I've been
blessed to have officers in my family and know about
different things that our people who speak to police reform. Right,
And that's the theory that most officers should also patrol
or work in their jurisdiction in which they live, just
so they're knowledgeable about.
Speaker 5 (30:58):
The community in which they serve.
Speaker 6 (31:00):
So when I heard those sentiments, I thought of that
and just saw how I see why that's such a theory,
how that could lead to success, because like he's saying,
how even she just said, mind you, we more than
fifty percent of our population is the LGBTQI plus like,
are you serious? So that that really struck that theory
(31:21):
to me.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
Most importantly, one of the interesting things is it is
this like lack of understanding just in general from law
enforcement about queer folks. I mean, have you had running?
You're talking about being in Weho having run. But I'm
just I'm thinking, you know, being dressed a different way
or like.
Speaker 7 (31:42):
That.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Like I'm trying to get the question about safety and
being out and being black and queer.
Speaker 4 (31:49):
So I feel safer when I look more feminine.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
Why is that?
Speaker 4 (31:53):
Because I know that they're scared of being caught either
a racist or a homophobe. Yeah, they're so scared of
it to try to stay as far away from it
as possible. But if I'm just you know, normally, like
with Sweatson and T Shirt, there's a nine times out
of ten chance that something is gonna go down if
something in my area happens in our master description, they're
gonna stop me, just you know, because based off how
(32:15):
I look. But if I'm feminine, they're like, he didn't
rob that bank. You know, there's no way he broke
into that car in a ten inch hell.
Speaker 6 (32:24):
And like I noticed to be true because a similar
experience back in Saint Louis. There was a robbery that
happened at a wing stop that we would frequent near
one of the major universities back home, and there was
an officer, a legitimate police officer. Because they were having
so many robberies on campus, I started to be a
(32:45):
rapport with so I went into the dialogue and totally
put me in the scenario. And of course, anyone who
knows me is that I'm usually nicely dress all. I
love a blouse and a blazer, and let's be clear,
even now I have a look at my chest opened.
Speaker 5 (33:01):
All that cute, no shame.
Speaker 6 (33:03):
But he told me that because you are black and
quit like how you look, you put an attention to
how you look. I would not say time because I
would not like, yeah, I would not profile you. But
if you walk in right now, you could have even
had the gun on you, right, he said no. But
you can see, like he told me, just because I
was black and gay, that he would not suspect me
(33:26):
to be a suspect.
Speaker 5 (33:27):
So I'm okay. So the girls you sent to the advantage,
let's be clear.
Speaker 4 (33:30):
So, because that's what the narrative is right now, it
is if you're well spoken, if you're femling in, if
you're safe, if you're if you're those things, if you're
to them, you're completely demasculated. But the feminine men are
the most like strong people I know, like they can
walk into any scenario and be utterly themselves and not
feel any type of way, right I care about Yeah,
(33:54):
the affairs of the world.
Speaker 7 (33:55):
I feel like the police, they don't scare me.
Speaker 4 (33:57):
Being a gay man walking into a cookout scared me
some time more than walking into straight like a straight set,
and I'm like dressed like I want to dress, and
I feel like, yeah, this is okay.
Speaker 3 (34:10):
Yeah, as someone who knows the victim, I won't be
able to put myself in the areas that this man
is like, or even put myself in a situation to
where we'll probably be at the same event or bar
or place.
Speaker 5 (34:30):
You know, that proximity is like shock I did.
Speaker 6 (34:35):
Yeah, And I think to me, that was also the
outrage that we had at that point, that not saying
that that first victim was forgivable, right, but to know
that within a two year period that there was another
victim and nothing still to be done, not to see
a pattern and then for him to roam amongst his neighborhood.
Speaker 5 (34:55):
And let's be clear, no, he's seeking another victim.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
One of the things that we suggested when we were
even doing this podcast that ed Buck, you're like at
Buck's not alone, Like this is just the type of
the that's you know, that's how we sold the That's
how we told people that is the tip of the
iceberg that this isn't. Yeah, you know, there's am I
right about that. There's so many bug let me keep
going gonna you're saying, no, there's just so many at Bucks.
(35:19):
There's so many at Bucks. There's so many groomers to
prepare you for ed Bucks. There's like systems in place,
and some of them are unbeknownst to the people that
are doing it, and some of them are very very intentional.
Like literally, if I dare you to put up a
grander profile that says twenty one with like a picture
(35:42):
of a guy sag in his pants or something, the
amount of people that will flood you with the party
emoji and like Roses saying that they'll give you money
and shit and Jen, I'm.
Speaker 7 (35:54):
Jen this BBC. I want to suck that dick. I
got some drugs for you. I got some money.
Speaker 3 (35:59):
Yeah, I feel like there are a lot of ads
out here, but I feel like the drugs, the drugs
are going to get to the people before the ds
get to the people. So I feel like crystal meth
is like a silent pandemic that's going on in the
black queer community, especially ballroom. And I feel like with
people hooked on these drugs, first, they'll put themselves in
(36:19):
situations to be taken advantage of by people like ed.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
If you're going to give somebody advice, who is you know,
coming from Saint Louis or Texas or Columbus, gay black
man getting on a plane heading to Los Angeles? What
advice would you give them?
Speaker 5 (36:45):
Stay true? Stay true?
Speaker 2 (36:47):
What does that mean you say? Stay true? Help me understand?
Speaker 6 (36:49):
So that was gonna leave you to my next point
of your focus. Always remember your why? What? What was
that motivation that fire beneath the win, beneath the wings too,
that had you come here? And I realized always being
at the foundation of the basis of my why has
kept me also has helped me out to navigate the terrain,
(37:12):
but allow to be also towards standing like the blows
and bolts of life, because that's one thing when I
realized I fell in love with Los Angeles. To me,
even the struggle became so beautiful, to be honest, because
I knew I belong here. So I knew with that
having that sense of hope and foundation and knowing that
I belong here, and I knew it was always going
(37:33):
to work out, and it has. I'm six years in
and still believed that the best years of my life
for her to come. And as I tell people when
they move her, I always tell them, trust me, you
stick it out to the best years of your life.
Speaker 4 (37:45):
What happened here right, Find your tribe, Find some people
that think more higher than you, some people that are elevated,
some people that want to be in positions that you
want to be in, or some people that.
Speaker 7 (37:55):
Are in position that you want to be in, and
come on and do the work. It's time. I'm also
saying that to myself.
Speaker 3 (38:02):
This is Cali speaking. I would say your faith will
get you very far. Sometimes you're going to be put
in situations to where you're not gonna see a way out,
or you're not going to have the solution or the answer.
But ultimately I feel like, if you stick to what
you know you set out to do, especially moving to LA,
then it to get you very far.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
All right, I'm gonna how do you avoid someone like that?
Speaker 5 (38:26):
Buck?
Speaker 6 (38:29):
Plainly, for me, I just don't date why. That's just
me prevention is better than cure. I'm just keeping a
hundred with the black ones. I just I don't date.
So Also, and this one thing I never got was
(38:49):
on set and another fellow gym and I shout up
to the geminis he was like his safety barriers five
above or five beneath. So I know so subconsciously, I
always look at that when I took this as age wise,
So five above and five unneath about a healthy medium
That's just my ed buck prevencing tactic.
Speaker 4 (39:11):
Let's be clear, okay, Oh for me, I would how
you stay away from an air buck is understanding that
you're worth is much more than one hundred dollars for
a quick blow and go a lot of it. It
just goes down to survival. Understanding that tomorrow you will
be alive and there will be an opportunity for you.
Go ahead, work at Starbucks, work at McDonald's. For the
(39:31):
time being, clean toilets if you have to. There's always
something else, because you're worth so much more.
Speaker 3 (39:39):
My advice to be to stay away from any kind
of air buoks, to try to refrain from doing hard
drugs or or substances that will take you out of
your right mind.
Speaker 7 (39:56):
Or take you up out of here.
Speaker 4 (39:58):
Okay, okay, okay, Michael Jackson, somebody else that was taken
too quick from a substance abuse problem.
Speaker 7 (40:11):
Propofol.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
You know when you were talking about when you come,
when you come to La, that you didn't that there
was a whole array that you didn't know that there
was like a system set.
Speaker 7 (40:23):
Up to prey on you. Yes, I didn't know.
Speaker 4 (40:26):
How do you How do we stop that from happening
by stopping the cycle with me? If anybody else you know,
have the power to do it, that's on them. But
I know I do. So I can create safe spaces.
I can get on platforms like this and tell young
men that you have a choice and you're beautiful. I
can tell my elders in my community that you have
(40:47):
a choice and you are beautiful, and to respect the
beauty of the youth because you were once young and
I want you to empathize empathy goes a long way
with the older, older, younger in between. We shattered the
system by being different than yesterday. If we expect the
same outcome in the same space, that's insanity. We have
(41:09):
to move if we want something different to happen. So
I encourage everybody to shift the way that they think,
in the way that they approach people love a little
bit harder.
Speaker 6 (41:18):
I'm a firm believer shot in the system by being
the biggest example, and historically those are the people that
we remember in history, vibrant examples, breaking down the Bible,
breaking down the artists some time, like different little things
were always different examples that people who shook the system.
Speaker 4 (41:37):
Yeah, Jesus was a system shatterer. Technically he was a
system shatterer anybody through time. So where do we go
from here? How do we shouter the system and thrive
in the new system that we create? Because if we
shattered this when we completely destroy it, so how do
we build?
Speaker 7 (41:53):
What do we build? How do we build it?
Speaker 4 (41:55):
That's the next questions I want to ask, not to
answer today, but that's the questions I'm asking myself leaving here,
What can I do and what is the system that
I want to look like, what can I do to
be the best.
Speaker 7 (42:08):
Uh uh version of yourself?
Speaker 10 (42:11):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (42:11):
How can I participate in this system and contribute to
it the best that I can?
Speaker 7 (42:15):
That's the questions that ask myself on nine Business. I
call that an ending. I think it's an ending. Thank you.
I appreciate you all your voice. I know I said that.
Speaker 2 (42:33):
Next, we wrap up this season with my conversation with
the founders of the Black and Missing Foundation. We talk
about why stories about black folks often get overlooked. This
is shattering the system. I'm Sinari Glinton. I wanted to
(42:55):
end these stories about the lies and deaths of Jamel
Moore and Timothy Dane with some thing that leads us
towards some solutions. You know, it took a lot of
effort to get the world to really pay attention to
these stories. But it's not an anomaly that stories about
crimes about black victims are often downplayed or the plight
of black people is just completely ignored. Natalie Wilson and
(43:18):
Dereka Wilson are the founders of the Black and Missing Foundation.
One is a lawyer and the other as a journalist,
and they came together to fight the apathy about black
people who go missing. So you know, if you can
walk me through the tragic event that you know, my
twin brother who doesn't exist that was missing, right, break
(43:41):
down what the response would be to that hypothetical missing
person versus a white person when they go missing.
Speaker 14 (43:50):
Well, first and foremost, I think it's so important for
your listeners to understand the process within the jurisdiction in
which you resign. There is no holy approach in the
missing person reporting structure. Every jurisdiction can operate in the
manner in which they choose. So, for example, some jurisdictions
(44:12):
require families to wait twenty four hours before following the
missing person's report, and we all know that the first
twenty four to forty eight hours are the most critical moments,
while other jurisdictions they allow those reports to be taken immediately.
Once that police report is taken, the next step is
for law enforcement to enter that case into NCIC, which
(44:36):
is the National Crime Information Center. That is how law
enforcement communicates across the country. So, for example, if you're
a twin brother went missing from California and someone comes
in contact with him, law enforcement comes in contact with him.
In Texas, or the vehicle that's associated with his disappearance
is in Texas. Once authorities run that tag, they would
(44:59):
know that your brother is missing from California. And that
is how law enforcement is to operate and putting this
information in. What we are seeing is that they are
using discretion in these cases. Sometimes they may put them in,
(45:20):
sometimes they may not. And when families go to law
enforcement and they get that missing person's case number, they
think that's the one and done. They're not aware that
the other process to this is entering it into NCIC,
creating a flyer to start circulating, a bolo be on
(45:41):
the lookout, circulating within the department as well as within
the community, notifying the media that there is a missing
person within the jurisdiction.
Speaker 9 (45:51):
Because awareness is key.
Speaker 12 (45:53):
And we know this.
Speaker 10 (45:55):
There's a missing white woman syndrome that when Eifel pined.
So if you're blonde and perceived as beautiful with blue eyes,
you get that around o'clock media coverage. If you are
from an urban area, you know the media isn't picking
up the story or there's no interest in it. We
(46:17):
weren't surprised about the study, but we were grateful that
it was done. And it's on our website. So your listeners, can,
you know, take the quiz and see how much media
coverage they can garner if they disappeared.
Speaker 2 (46:31):
The white girl missing syndrome. Hope me understand how that
idea plays into why you do your work.
Speaker 10 (46:37):
Well again, you know, stemming back to the inspiration behind
the organization. Tamika Houston couldn't get that media coverage. Why
Natalie Holloway dominated the new cycle. As a matter of fact,
last week they were talking about Natalie Holloway, right, So
if you go to Google and just see how many impressions,
(47:00):
how many news story have been have been done on
Natalie Holloway, Chandra Levy, Gabby Patito, and the list goes
on and on. It shows the inherent biases when it
comes to coverage of missing black.
Speaker 12 (47:17):
And brown women.
Speaker 10 (47:18):
And we can all name these these ladies again, the
Natalie Holloways, the Chandra Levy, the Gabby Patito. But can
your listeners name a person of color that is missing
and just start with your community?
Speaker 12 (47:32):
Can you name someone?
Speaker 10 (47:33):
Can you name someone that on a national level that
has gotten that national coverage ever?
Speaker 2 (47:39):
Like that's that's that's a really really interesting one. Ever,
like is that I don't know of a name of
a black girl whose name that has ever risen even
close to Natalie Holloway, who is uh missing on a
Caribbean island right, and it caused the firestorm? I mean,
are what are the what are the names that you know?
Why don't we do that now and list some of
(48:01):
the names that we should have known.
Speaker 10 (48:02):
That you should know. Keisha Jacobs, Tiffany Foster. You should
know Arianna Fitz. She was two years old when she
went missing from San Francisco. Her mother was found buried
in a grave.
Speaker 12 (48:18):
In a park.
Speaker 9 (48:19):
You should know, Melsia Rudd and Casey Young.
Speaker 10 (48:25):
Yeah, there's so many you should know, so many names
that you should know, Shariah Williams, Janiah Walker.
Speaker 9 (48:35):
Danielle Moss, Liam McDonald.
Speaker 10 (48:42):
And to learn more, you can definitely go to our
website at BAMFI dot org and just start with who's
missing from your community and help find them.
Speaker 2 (48:58):
I wonder if the direct link between the lack of
diversity and newsrooms and the alarm bell being raised about
black and brown people being missing. How does lack of
diversity in the journalism profession play into the lack of
attention to these kind of cases.
Speaker 10 (49:16):
Well, that's one issue, you are right, lack of diversity.
The decision makers in the newsrooms are typically middle aged,
white men, So are they really telling the stories that
matter to the community that they serve. But we also
challenge newsrooms across the country to create a policy as
(49:38):
to how they handle coverage of cases of missing people.
So if you were to call a newsroom and another
family calls a newsroom, who decides who gets coverage and sadly,
there is no policy to make staff aware so that
they can prevent intentional or unintentional biases in the coverage
(50:02):
of these stories.
Speaker 12 (50:04):
And also, you.
Speaker 10 (50:05):
Know, raising the alarm about the images that are used
in news coverage when they're telling the stories. Are they
showing you know, a mug shot or a provocative picture
that has been you know, downloaded from the missing person's
personal social media platforms?
Speaker 2 (50:24):
Or there are way morery about this, like can you
drill down on images and how we talk about these
victims a little more so.
Speaker 10 (50:32):
The perception is many times, and we see this every
single day, that the person that has disappeared they have
gotten what they deserve. They come from marginalized communities, and
what we are trying to do is to change the
narrative that these are our missing mothers and fathers, sisters, brothers,
valuable members of our community. So what we have been
(50:54):
seeing the images that are being used for news coverage,
they are a continuing to instill that public perception and
those stereotypes that this person isn't worthy enough to be found.
And I'll give you an example. There was a young
lady missing out of South Carolina and we provided the
(51:18):
media outlet with pictures that the family gave.
Speaker 12 (51:22):
They didn't use them.
Speaker 10 (51:24):
They went to her social media platform and downloaded some
pictures you know, for her that she posted, and the
community was outraged because it was a distraction from finding
her and it gave off that stereotype that she was promiscuous,
which she wasn't and it had nothing to do with
her disappearance. And I'd also like to add, you're right,
(51:46):
sometimes what we do is very frustrating, right, but it's
also rewarding when we are able to find someone and
reunite them with their loved ones and we know.
Speaker 12 (52:00):
That that family can sleep at night, you know.
Speaker 10 (52:04):
And as we peel back to layers, we are realizing
that there's so many systemic issues in our communities that
need to be resolved, homelessness, jobs, you know, mental health,
and that's an issue.
Speaker 12 (52:21):
That we need to talk about.
Speaker 2 (52:27):
When you look at the homeless population, especially with young people,
or when you see people run away or those things,
I have to imagine that a large percentage of those
of the black and brown missing people are gay and lesbian.
Help me understand how being gay or queer rather feeds
(52:47):
into this problem we are seeing.
Speaker 10 (52:50):
And we've had some cases of missing individuals from the
LGBTQ community, and it's something that we are taking a
closer look at to see how we can you know,
better support them and you know better provide them with
(53:11):
the resources that they need.
Speaker 12 (53:13):
It's new to us. Our focus is.
Speaker 10 (53:15):
On men, women, and children to holistically help bring awareness
to their disappearance and to find them. But we are
seeing more and more LGBTQ members disappearing, so we're taking
a look into that as well.
Speaker 5 (53:32):
Well.
Speaker 14 (53:32):
There's certainly going to increase thirty percent a missing person
in the United States or persons of color, and that
number has since increased to forty percent.
Speaker 9 (53:40):
So the numbers are am army.
Speaker 2 (53:43):
Now I'm a journalist. What can journalists do in their
newsrooms to make your job easier?
Speaker 10 (53:50):
One, Please reach out to the pios, the public information
officers for these law enforcement agencies because they are low
for stories.
Speaker 12 (54:01):
They want to tell the stories.
Speaker 10 (54:04):
To be mindful of the images that are being used
when you're telling this story, and to create a policy
to even the plane field. When it comes to missing
people of color, don't just this miss you know the
when you get the phone call and use your social
(54:26):
media platforms. Yes, you may not be able to show
it on the typical news cycle, but you can you know,
your personal social media platform or the news station. So
there's so much change or advocating for change in policies
that journalists and newsrooms across the country can do.
Speaker 2 (54:49):
What about law enforcement? You know, if you can walk
into you know, La or Detroit or one of those
cities and something or get them to change something, what
would that be? What what would what would solutions look
like in law enforcement? That's a better question.
Speaker 14 (55:09):
Well, dedicating and more resources to the missing person unit
as a whole. When it comes to missing person it's
not considered a priority, especially when it's adults, because adults
can come and go as they please. So you know,
when you're looking at law enforcement, their resources are dedicated
to the homicide divisions, those high crime areas, but the
(55:33):
stats don't lie. I mean, you know, with the number
of people that are going this in every year, more
agencies need to have more bodies in that division. And
also seeing organizations such as the Black Livestic Foundation as
an ally, you know, we're not trying to overstep our boundaries.
Speaker 9 (55:52):
We want to partner with law enforcement and we.
Speaker 14 (55:56):
Understand that there are limited resources right now. All these
police departments they're suffer from staffing issues, but seeing us
as a valuable partner where they can utilize our platform
to upload missing individuals from their jurisdiction so we can
help bring awareness and eventually help bring them home.
Speaker 9 (56:16):
So those are a few things. And then enhance training.
Speaker 14 (56:19):
You know, there needs to be that culture diversity, that
sensitivity training with law enforcement. You know, again, as I
mentioned that there's a shortage, a lot of police departments
are recruiting, you know, across the country and a lot
of people that are on the force now are policing
a community that they're not from, and so that makes
(56:41):
it very challenging when you're policing a community that you're
not from to really understand that community. So we really
need to get back to the basics, and we need
to enhance the training and get rid of that classification
run away. They're missing when it's a child and that
child is missing, that child is endangered, and we know
that every three children that run away are solicited for sex.
(57:08):
And then lastly, the point that I love to make
is review those policy and procedures and get rid of
that twenty four hour waiting period.
Speaker 10 (57:18):
And can I just add one more thing. I want
to tell journalists why they matter. Well, one, media coverage
puts pressure on law enforcement to add resources to the case,
and as Derek mentioned, law enforcement typically are not taking
these cases seriously. But your coverage will also alert the
(57:39):
wider community that someone is missing, and it can increase
the chance of a recovery because we know that within
the first twenty four to forty eight hours are the
most critical times.
Speaker 2 (57:58):
That's Natalie and Dereka Wilson, co founders of the Black
and Missing Foundation. You can find them at Black and Missinginc.
Dot com. That's Black and Missing i NC dot com.
We've covered a lot of territory of the course of
this podcast, ed Buck is in prison, and that was
a real victory. Ed Buck wasn't allowed to kill gay
(58:18):
black men with impunity. What was true when ed Buck
was on the streets is still true now. Sadly, it
took a whole federal case to get ed Buck off
the streets, and that's still infuriating.
Speaker 7 (58:30):
You know.
Speaker 2 (58:31):
I see a direct line between Letitia Nixon and Mamie Till,
the mother of Emmettil, and the tremendous effort that Letitian
Nixon made to honor her son is a part of
a very long legacy. I sat with Letitian Nixon at
a bar after sentencing, and when I asked her what
made her fight, she said, Jamel was my baby, and
(58:54):
she said she didn't care what the world thought of him.
She had to fight for him. And if Jamel Moore's
death filled me with rage, then that conversation with his
mother has given me hope. While the death of Jamel
Moore and Timothy Dean was senseless, and it fills me
with anger, more anger than when we started. And actually,
(59:16):
if you are less angry after listening to the series,
then when we started, then we haven't done our jobs.
While we haven't solved the problems that ed Buck exposed
in the system, hopefully we expose the systems that allowed
him to get away with it for so long. We
sought to honor the memory of Jammel Moore and Timothy Dean,
(59:37):
and I think of a quote from the Holocaust survivor
Ellie Gizl for the dead and the living, we must
bear witness. Not only are we responsible for the memories
of the dead, we are responsible for what we do
with those memories. Well, that's show. I'm grateful, especially to
(01:00:02):
all the folks on this team, the individual names that
I will read in the credits, this team that is
given me so much space and grace to tell this
story for them, I will be eternally grateful. Let us
know what you think. Leave your thoughts about the series
and the comments. Is there someone who's using the system
(01:00:22):
to cover up their crimes in your area? What's the
system you think needs to be shattered? This is Shattering
the System, the true crime podcast that's about more than crime.
I'm Scenario Glinton, Thank you so very much. Shattering the
(01:01:07):
System is a production of Macro Studios and iHeart Podcasts.
I'm your host Sinari Glinton. Follow me at s O
n ari I one on Instagram. Our series executive producers
are Charles King, Asha corpus, Win Royal Reccio, Jonathan Hunger,
Lindsay Hoffman and Scenari Glinton.
Speaker 5 (01:01:28):
That's Me.
Speaker 2 (01:01:28):
Our show is co written and produced by Ralph Cooper
the Third. Erica Rodriguez is our associate producer. Dana Conway
is our archival producer. Chris Mann is our audio engineer.
Sound design and music provided by Chris Mann with pod Shaper.
Special thanks to Karen Griggsby, Bates Port, Robertson, Nigas and
(01:01:49):
Lisa Pollock.
In this podcast, we're going to talk frankly but sensitively
about some tough issues, including sexual abuse, drugs, and suicide.
If you or someone you know is suicidal in the
US Down nine eighty eight, check out this podcast notes
page for information on LGBT plus mental health resources in
your community.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Welcome to this bonus episode of Shattering the System. I'm
Scenari Glnton ed Buck is currently serving his three hundred
and sixty month sentence in federal prison. That's thirty years
and it's effectively a life sentence. Now. The reason that
we wanted to do this podcast in the first place
was we didn't think that ed Buck was an anomaly
(00:45):
and we wanted to do something different with this episode.
So often these kind of true crime podcasts aren't made
by the communities that are being covered. So we thought
we'd gather a group of gay men from the community
that Jamel Moore and Timothy Dean were part of Los Angeles,
And after spending so much time thinking about the darkest
parts of gay black life in the city, we were
(01:07):
looking for something a little more hopeful. So a few
weeks ago I sat down with an amazing group of
young men. They are all gay black Out and in
various ways a part of the ballroom community that we
heard about in earlier episodes of this show. So we're
going to start off getting an understanding of the effects
the death of Jamel Moore and Timothy Dean had on
(01:28):
gay black men who come to Los Angeles hunting for
a dream. And then the second part of the show,
we'll hear from the founders of the Black and Missing Foundation.
We'll hear why some victims stories captured the imagination of
the media, and why black victims often don't. But first
my conversation with a group of young men who are
(01:48):
part of the ballroom scene with a connection to the
victims of ed Buck. If you can go around the
table and have each of you just quickly introduce yourself,
your name, and your ballroom name, maybe that is a
good thing to start with.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
My name is Cali de Quan and I am now
a double O seven. In the ballroom scene.
Speaker 4 (02:11):
Hello, I am the Roman Woods. I go by Rome
Ebony in the ballroom scene.
Speaker 5 (02:16):
Hello World.
Speaker 6 (02:17):
For the few who might not know, I am the
ever legendary Byron Keaton the Key Key scene, I am
in the international iconic House of Juicy couture and on
the mainstream scene, I am in the International Hall of
Fame house of mi Akei Mouglaire. I will never forget
(02:38):
that the second that had happened around my time just
moving to Los Angeles, and that was actually the first
protest I attended with community members.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
So the second death was Timothy Dean And so you
you went to a protest. Where was that?
Speaker 5 (02:54):
Yeah, this was actually what Hollywood I side of Airbus
home with.
Speaker 6 (02:57):
This is when we knew for sure that the community
was out of hand, and we knew that this was
beyond intention, that this was a monster we were dealing with. Right.
I have friends that did the documentary as well, so
I'm very familiar with this case. And to me, this
was also dark reality. As you were even mentioning your
(03:17):
clip that I knew that Los Angeles was another place.
So there was another battle that you had the fight
outside of being the dream seecret writer coming here to
live the life of your dreams. But this was something
else that another barrier that was now in place.
Speaker 7 (03:33):
Help me unpack that.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Yeah, he's like the La thing, exeparate like being So
there's the dream of being in La Yes, and then
there's being black and gay in LA.
Speaker 5 (03:43):
And the reality of that. Right.
Speaker 6 (03:45):
So even for example, Tim was at the time I
was a seat filler, professional audience going all that, and
he was too. We were in the same agency, a
sorrow standing on only. So this was also a cold right,
which is when and most things, as we all know,
the world is so vast, but nothing really hits you
(04:07):
until it hit home, when it's when it's in proximity, right,
So when that hit that's when I knew that I
had to stand up.
Speaker 4 (04:16):
I was highly sought after by people like Ed buck By,
like predatory people, and by people that had good intentions.
You know, whenever somebody sees something fresh in any in
any arena, they gravitate to it and they want to
see what it's about.
Speaker 6 (04:31):
Same coming to Los Angeles, I really didn't throw myself
into like dating.
Speaker 5 (04:35):
It's actually recent, more recent for.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
Me and then as black men in general, I think
we're fetisige like as a stereotype too, based off of
our physical features. What we packing the girls to the aeah,
you know what I'm saying, just the muscles, the strong like.
I think we're just fetishage as a as a whole.
Speaker 4 (04:55):
I mean there's predators come in any shape, form color.
You can be fetishized for your youth. I was nineteen
when I moved out here. There's people that enjoy calling
me son.
Speaker 6 (05:04):
I have a lot of my best friends have dated
inter racially. I've never right, so they have come and
told me dirt horror stories about especially how most of
those relationships end. I've had another friend who at one
point was partying, and he told me how they were
engaging the intercourse and the guy did ask him to
kind of put a bump, which is I believe cocaine
(05:27):
in or crack. Right, I'm a sober Susie. I'm the
friend that don't smoke, I don't drink. I'm the desnetty driver.
I was a church girl.
Speaker 5 (05:33):
I was all that.
Speaker 6 (05:33):
So I do get my education from my friends and
through culture. Right, So he were telling me how, like
the guy ended up even sneaking some on his condiment
at one point, just so you know, because you know
that enhances the high. So hearing all these stories, like
you said, coming to La knowing it to be La
La laying and everything being sold, you know, cupcicks and
slush sheets, didn't having to realize that these are the
(05:55):
horrid realities of having survival sex with my community.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Right, I'm gonna sense you talked about coming here. Why
don't we play the clip, which is from Jammel's diary.
Hear Jamell's words.
Speaker 8 (06:10):
I pray that I can just get my life together
and make it make sense. I helped so many people,
but I can't seem to help myself. I honestly don't
know what to do. Become addicted to drugs the worst
one at that. Ed Buck is the one to think.
He gave me my first injection of crystal myth. It
(06:31):
was painful, but after all the troubles, I became addicted
to the pain and the fantasy.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
You can hear the pain and anguish. Jamel did the
best he possibly could to break his addiction. You know,
I got to say, it's not just the fact that
ed Buck introduced Jamel to slamming that's so appalling, or
the way he treated his victims. It was the illusion
that he cared about them. There are so many gay
white men who I've run into who say shit like
(07:04):
I'm not racist, I love black men, or I only
date black men. But then every single part of how
they act dehumanizes black men. I'm one hundred percent no,
I'm actually one thousand percent sure that ed Buck said
that he loved black men. But here's the thing. Ed
Buck paid black men to do crystal meth so that
(07:26):
he could take pictures of them in underwear. He wasn't
really interested in sex necessarily, but he paid to humiliate,
in torture black men. For instance, he paid them to
let him call them nigger.
Speaker 7 (07:40):
Well, wow, what a cut off.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
I mean, the crazy nonsense that white men have said
to me in this town in relation to sex. And
I'm wondering when you hear about, you know yet an
ed Bucks fetish for black men, what what experiences or
what thoughts do you have when you hear that?
Speaker 7 (08:03):
Mhmm.
Speaker 4 (08:05):
This is room speaking. When you survive, you do, survival
is u. Survival is a hell of a thing.
Speaker 7 (08:12):
You know.
Speaker 4 (08:12):
I can't speak for them, but I've definitely been approaching
the club and so you know, hey, I'll give you
this amount for this and that on dating apps. I'm
jin you know, when you walk in West Hollywood, it's
the hooting and the hollering and the grabbing and the groping. Uh,
it's it's the cat calling and the grooming from your elders,
even in the black community. It's the offering of drugs,
(08:35):
it's the offering of family with all you want is
to fuck.
Speaker 7 (08:39):
It's so many things.
Speaker 4 (08:41):
Predators are a plenty, you know, So it's just it's
so many.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Things me personally CALLI speaking, I didn't come across like
fetishization by people until I was on these social apps
like Jagged Grand didn't last that long, but there's times
like I will only experience this kind of stuff, like
people messaging me about like my BBC or blacks only
(09:11):
and they're profile and they're a whole white person or
BBC only or It wasn't until like honestly, I got
out here that I realized that it was actually a thing.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
So what does it feel like when you're in West
Hollywood and someone's like, I don't like personally speak ahead, yeah.
Speaker 6 (09:29):
This is Byron speaking saying. So I realized historically, I've
always had a gift to foster community. So I only
go where I feel community, right, I only tech to
go to We's Hollywood on Black Night, which is our
only two nights of showcasing, which is Thursday, bb and Sunday, right,
So I'm intentional if there is not a black space
(09:53):
and We's Hollywood are black showcasing or not beaten there?
Outside of that, because I have you know, been out
any other nights, it does feel overwhelming. I do feel
like a fish out of water, like I said, just
kind of socially. Now, let's be clear, I have a
few eateries and a few like the lifestyle. Wise, I
do enjoy what's Hollywood. Shout out to that fro Yo.
(10:16):
They just cloth all that, you know, I love the
ice cream. But socially, ah in that yeah, and I wouldn't,
I would not go out.
Speaker 7 (10:24):
We has been Callie speaking here.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
We has been like the area where I run into
the most ignorant white people especially but why I can't
even call them buch queens the white gay people. And
that's just but queen is a ballroom term for a
gay male. Yeah, yeah, not yeah basically and yeah, we hole.
I don't like the energy of it just because of
(10:47):
like just like for example, I can be walking down
the street and see Byron or it's just another brother
in general, and like where I'm from the South, it's
like we speak. If I look you on your eye.
We're going to speak to each other when I mean
we hold is daggers, like especially when it comes from
like white gay males. And I don't want to call
it racism or anything like that. I do honestly feel
(11:08):
like it's just a cultural difference because I'm from the South.
These people are probably raised in the suburbs of wherever
they're from, you know, and they are cut from a
different cloth.
Speaker 7 (11:18):
I didn't think that's a black thing. I say this
all the time.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
It's like when like half the world's problems will be
solved if white people understood that when a black person
looks at you in the face and says hello, you're
supposed to respond. That is I go through five cities
in fifteen years, and that is no matter where I go,
I'm like, hey, how you doing, and like.
Speaker 3 (11:38):
Yeah, I mean, we hope majority of that time happen.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
But when you were what you were in but you
had to have experiences, So like what were the experiences
that led you to have this opinion about West Hollywood.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
Social events like gay events prides that I'll go.
Speaker 7 (11:53):
To where do you find your community? Ball where we
make it?
Speaker 4 (12:00):
Ye Like, we'll talk even in like the black straight community,
we're ostracized, and there's like this stigma against us that
we're going to be loud and belligerent and flamboyant. And
that's okay if we are, because that's our truth and
we have a right to our truth, just like they
have a right to theirs. So we've been creating space
wherever the fuck we can, Like it's it's like a
(12:22):
constant war just to be ourselves and to have a
safe space, especially for queer people of color, Like there
is no designated area for us. We're always visitors in
somebody else's shit. Like literally, when we leave, the white
gays come in, and I say white gays, like this
(12:44):
is I'm not a prejudiced person or anything like that,
but there is a clear shift with how they're treated,
with how they're approached with certain things. There's just a clear,
a clear shift. Like it it's crazy almost.
Speaker 6 (13:00):
But yeah, also I can value This is Byron speaking
adding value to that point, which is another reason why
I have to ballroom for that. I do feel that
Ballroom is the nucleus of queer fellowship, especially for the
black see me black and brown group. Let's be clear,
and that's well all I've known historically, and even in
(13:22):
those classes, even at the functions, being amongst the girls,
it's where I usually tend to vibe. So also taking
accountability in the context of we hold, I find my
comfort and home with black and brown bodies. So that's
who I tend to fellowship with, which is why when
I don't see that or a nice amount of that,
I am or I find I'm uncomfortable, right so, and
(13:45):
I don't put myself through that on comfort, so I
tend to only curate mostly ballroom spaces of black and
brown core spaces for that to create a safety.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
Net, I'm kinlie speaking. I kind of also do feel
like racism still kind of plays a major part, and
that too, is just very hidden, like it's not out
in the air, you know.
Speaker 7 (14:06):
I do feel like it's.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
Not necessarily hidden because it's in plain sight.
Speaker 9 (14:13):
But I feel like.
Speaker 7 (14:15):
There's black Knight for God's sakes.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
Yeah, you know, have to be an urban night and
we you know what I'm saying, like that should already
let you know what kind of what kind of space
that we ho was designed for.
Speaker 4 (14:26):
The lines are clearly drawn. It's kind of apparent this
is shattering the system. More from my conversation about being
black and gay in Los Angeles with members of LA's
ballroom community. So one of the more interesting interviews that
(14:48):
I did was with a Letlow query at Bucks lawyer
black Man uh inac You know, we went in an
NAACP And I always think when I talk to him
or hear him that he is a version of me.
Speaker 7 (15:03):
Like I'm like, we're almost the same age.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
We went to the same type of school, just like
you know, he went to Beverly Hills.
Speaker 7 (15:10):
I went to a fancy school Chicago.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
The whole thing, bus, all those things, and I the
transition that I almost want to make is in hearing
about this, is there any do you? How do you
see ed Buck in this?
Speaker 7 (15:23):
Is there any empathy?
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Is there any?
Speaker 10 (15:25):
Like?
Speaker 3 (15:26):
So Cali speaking, I don't have empathy for him. I
could say I I won't even have sympathy for him,
to be honest, but I do feel like everybody makes
a choice, and everybody has a it was responsible for
their own decision. So me putting myself in the victim shoes.
(15:49):
If I know that I'm homeless right now, or if
I know that I'm looking for a shelter or any
kind of like resources, and I'm getting on.
Speaker 7 (15:59):
These apps to look for it.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
Anything can happen out of that, Like I'm literally signing
up for anything that can come out of this.
Speaker 7 (16:08):
Yeah, but yeah, I think yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
And like, I can't put all the blame on I
wouldn't put all the blame on him. I do, but
I do feel like he is monstrous for the.
Speaker 4 (16:20):
Like, yeah, okay, I think the word we're looking for
for eed Bucket's pity.
Speaker 7 (16:25):
I pity him.
Speaker 4 (16:25):
I feel sorry that a being would stoop so low
as to inject other human beings with drugs and embarrass them.
Everybody has their own fetishes and their own things that
they're into. Hey, I don't yuck anybody's young, but when
that young is poisonous and disastrous and tainted and carnal
(16:46):
and evil.
Speaker 7 (16:47):
And vile, I don't.
Speaker 5 (16:48):
I don't.
Speaker 4 (16:49):
I don't have empathy for you because I can't put
myself in your shoes.
Speaker 7 (16:52):
That's just not that's not what I can do. And
for the victims, for the people, for.
Speaker 4 (16:57):
The young men that walked into those rooms and that
allowed that to happen, I can empathize with them. I
can I can empathize with them because I've been a
young man that was broke. I've ran out of rouse
with Chicken my freaking freshman year here because I was
so broke. Like, so I can understand when somebody says, hey,
(17:17):
I'll give you a thousand more dollars. You know how
much a thousand dollars is to some of that somebody
that has nothing. Do you know how much one hundred
dollars is to somebody that has nothing?
Speaker 6 (17:25):
Like, yeah, well I don't I buyron kitchens. Do not
pity ed buck or emphathize, well I do. I love
your yeahs. But my thing is he's the poster child
of what do we I think most fear when we
into those spaces of allowing intercourse or fetish played with
white men. That he is the peak of that, the
(17:47):
pinnacles in my eyes.
Speaker 5 (17:49):
But yes, do you see him?
Speaker 2 (17:50):
I mean I sort of see him as in a
in a hot moment talking to somebody. It was like, oh,
you're like, this is just a continue You're like a
buckets on And You're right, You're not that far away.
Speaker 5 (18:06):
You see what I'm saying. Yeah, Yeah, So that's why
to me love black men.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
That's what he's like.
Speaker 4 (18:10):
Yeah, yeah, necessary by any means necessary.
Speaker 5 (18:15):
Concluding, I thought, yeah, I do. I do not he's
to me, I could say he's the ault.
Speaker 6 (18:20):
He's the leader of what we fear, the fetish to be,
especially in the community and especially in a place like
Los Angeles where people look at this place for the fantasy,
for the life enhancement that it is right.
Speaker 5 (18:33):
So yeah, to me, he's.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
And it can be it definitely like Los Angeles can be.
Like I said, I feel like it all depends on
the choices you make personally for yourself.
Speaker 5 (18:44):
I love Los Angeles.
Speaker 7 (18:45):
We you know, it's funny. I was.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
I was. I used to think that life was your choices,
like oh I decided to move to l A or
blah blah blah. Then you realize then I started to realize, like,
oh no, I was just.
Speaker 5 (18:58):
Like I was.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
I was the river yea that was moving along.
Speaker 5 (19:02):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
It was just like, oh, I didn't choose to be
in LA I didn't choose not to do this, Like
a lot of these choices were set in front of
me as if they were choices.
Speaker 4 (19:10):
You can equate that to like you a young man
a nineteen year old man. Just say, for instance, going
into a man like at Buck's house and him saying, hey,
I'll give you like one hundred more dollars. I'm hungry.
You know he's hungry. What is the choice that he
has there? I can either eat and take these drugs
because I know I'm strong, I'm nineteen, I could take
on the world. I'm not going to get addicted to this.
I'm going to do these drugs and I'm going to
(19:32):
get this money. I'm going to eat, you know. So
that's just that's the choices that they were dep I
just heard what you said, and I was like, wow,
that's the same thing that happened to them. They just
got caught up in the stream kind of a decision
that was made for them already.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
I would disagree because I still feel like like even
if me, for example, putting myself in a situation where
I need one hundred dollars to get some food or
something like that, like knowing what's about be put into
my body, I would still fight between is this value?
Do I value this to get what I need to get?
Speaker 7 (20:06):
Right?
Speaker 4 (20:07):
Same here, But I'm some people people come from different
background I can only that's what I can only empathize,
I can only put myself in that.
Speaker 7 (20:16):
So he was feasting on the vulnerable.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
I feel like people who are in that situation are
super vulnerable and probably don't know no other way out
and gotta do what they gotta do.
Speaker 4 (20:24):
Like I said, I've definitely run out of routs with
Chicken because I didn't want to ask.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Well, but what about empathizing or your feeling about the victim?
Speaker 7 (20:32):
I mean, you said you've been in that situation.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
But yeah, yeah, because probably because they look like me,
like you know what I'm saying, and I know how
it's like, I know how it feels to be broke.
I know how it feels to be faced with a
decision that feels like but some people don't have the
will power or some people don't have like yeah, to
be able to make those kind of decisions.
Speaker 6 (20:52):
Also to like I said, I've seen so many different
situations and this is Byron speaking were and also on
the thriller that they're chasing because I like, I had
a friend where he was a privilege right, but I
realized he had a jones for stealing, like he would
take things. He got a thriller taking step out of
the store without paying for it.
Speaker 5 (21:13):
And he had money.
Speaker 6 (21:13):
We all have money, and like all you had to
tell them who that brought dis comfort to me. If
we're gonna be friends, like you walking out, I don't
know if somebody chasing after me because this is your thrill,
right and even knowing one of the victims who had
passed and just knowing his ambition when we would be
out on set, not knowing how like sometime, which is
why I'm also protective involved in spaces what the leaders teach,
(21:35):
because I do know how some of you are taught
to sell their bodies in certain spaces or certain mentors,
like this is kind of what you got to get
used to, right And no, it's you don't always have
to you do.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Have the people told you this is the people.
Speaker 5 (21:50):
You'll be surprised.
Speaker 6 (21:51):
This is why no, no, really speak to the horbles.
Speaker 4 (21:54):
Go ahead, brother god oh oh doesn't really work like
a common thing, like it's still happening right now. When
I first came out here, it was like, oh, no,
you're selling some dick like you want to hear a cut?
Oh yeah, ah, you like to smoke weed? Oh wow?
Who knew food costs money? You came out here on
a scholarship. But it's so like you're asking your mind
(22:14):
for everything. How manly is that? Like you know, you
knew you can make your own money.
Speaker 7 (22:19):
This is it's easy. Just come hang out with me,
you know.
Speaker 4 (22:22):
Okay, you end up in one hotel room, one stake,
then another state, another hotel room.
Speaker 7 (22:27):
Okay, that was some quick money. That was easy.
Speaker 4 (22:29):
I didn't have to do nothing. I didn't have to
do too much of nothing. I didn't have to give
too much of myself. And then you leave pieces of
yourself in different area codes and realize your like shambles
are like literally a fraction of your former self.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Well, that's a good time to play. That's clicked. Can
I tell you that one of the most surreal things
is to hear the lawyer for Ed Buck getting misty
eyed about gay black men. I talked to Query for
two hours in downtown in Hollywood. Aside from defending that Buck,
because that's your job. Yes, what do you say to
(23:06):
the young man who's moving to West Hollywood Jamel Moore
of today, the young person who's comes to Hollywood. What
advice do you give to that young person who's arriving today?
Speaker 11 (23:20):
The la is a jungle. You gotta be careful. I
would just you know, hope that you don't get involved
in anything that involves you, you know, doing drugs, because
that's just a bad it's a cliche path.
Speaker 5 (23:36):
In Hollywood.
Speaker 11 (23:37):
It's an la cliche and it just leads.
Speaker 7 (23:42):
To nothing good.
Speaker 11 (23:44):
And you matter, you matter.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
The vigor with which you defended mister buck. Do you
think that that's in the message to gay black men
that they matter?
Speaker 5 (23:58):
I think that I.
Speaker 12 (24:01):
In doing my job.
Speaker 11 (24:02):
And this again is the this is where you compartmentalize
as a lawyer. This is what makes this is one
of the hard parts about being a lawyer, And what's
so unique about being a lawyer is you have to
compartmentalize because all I had to focus on defending my client.
(24:23):
I couldn't focus on the message I was sending to
young gay black men.
Speaker 7 (24:32):
Well, when he calls a lay a jungle, is he right? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (24:37):
Because there are so many different things that you can
get yourself into that can and come to a different outcome,
that can lead it to a different outcome.
Speaker 5 (24:45):
Honestly, yeah, I went that.
Speaker 6 (24:48):
I said that was beautiful language because I had not
envisioned it as a jungle, I would say more so
of a maze. But when he said a jungle, I
did see the marriage of a jungle and a maze,
to be honest.
Speaker 5 (25:00):
So but yeah, he is right in that context for sure.
Speaker 7 (25:04):
So if La is jungle, what lessons have you learned
from the jung? La is a jungle and he's a vulture.
Speaker 4 (25:09):
He gnawled on the carcass of black gay men's plights
and then acted like it didn't matter. You used very
big words, and it was very beautiful to listen to
La as a jungle.
Speaker 7 (25:23):
Okay, and you're defending a tiger.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
This is Calie speaking a few things that I've learned
in La. Not everybody is your friend. You are who
you hang around, and it's super easy to get thrown
off track.
Speaker 6 (25:38):
Yes, and with that's so funny you say that because
one of the lessons that I, Byron have learned is
that I remember when I first got here, I saw
a lot of friends get chased out of here. Actually,
but then the first couple of weeks I realized what
distinguished me from them my focus. So the focus and
your intention on why you're out here, making sure you
keep that at the forefront of everything right to me,
(25:58):
that's how you will navigate not only the jungle, but
your own personal definition and for fearing or what success
is and finding it out here and night.
Speaker 4 (26:07):
That gentleman, is a pure example of everybody black and
your brother, everybody that you feel to share the same
values and ideals that you do just as not. Okay,
So that's just something to accept.
Speaker 7 (26:21):
What about the police? What about about the police?
Speaker 6 (26:25):
Now, let me Alan be speak. I have a lens
on this because.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
This is this is funny to me. Yeah, so please
tell me about the police. So you have a specific ones, Let's.
Speaker 5 (26:36):
Be clear and just.
Speaker 6 (26:37):
I want only because this is distinguishment. I come from
Saint Louis, you know, I come from the Ferguson era
of Mike Brown, right, So coming from like a Saint
Louis where we are taught to not even fear the
police but actually stairway, I think that's a black thing
period to stay away and disconnect from the police. My
(26:58):
experiences in Los Angeles have been quite different. I like,
what I'm going to knock on this table, but like,
I haven't been pulled over. He like, no, it's it's
really been pleasant compared to where I come.
Speaker 5 (27:11):
From if that makes us right?
Speaker 6 (27:13):
Uh, still just knowing culturally, you know, you don't fuck
with the police.
Speaker 5 (27:17):
Let's me think come home.
Speaker 6 (27:18):
But coming from from I'm from my Anthony Hamilton voice.
It's been distinguished from Saint Louis and coming out here,
so well, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
What about is there a difference between say, how you
feel in West Hollywood or other places? You're you're you're laughing,
You're like, you have a differences.
Speaker 4 (27:38):
Everybody's so nice and so nice. Oh my god, they
pull you over and they're so nice.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
One of the moments during the podcast that I thought
was interesting, I interviewed the former mayor of West Hollywood
and we talked about the Sheriff's police. Were you satisfied
with the Sheriff's department when you were in the city.
Speaker 13 (28:01):
I think that the Sheriff's department in many ways did
a great job and in many ways was very challenged.
To have a city of thirty six thousand people that
could on any given night quadruple just because of who
was coming in to go to the night life. That
makes your job and your responsibilities very difficult. It's not
(28:26):
like you're patrolling bedroom community of thirty six thousand people
that goes to sleep at ten o'clock at night. But
I will also say because of that, they had to
be prepared for a different kind of experience. And I
think there were ways that the department fell short in
(28:47):
terms of the expectations of the community as it related
especially to cultural competency.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
And there's no like, oh, in order to come the
West out Like in my mind, there would be like, oh,
there is this sort of special training, or maybe I
want to know this, or but there's none of that
in your shade.
Speaker 13 (29:06):
You should head requirements. No, there there was discussion that
certain trainings happened, and I asked that question at a
public meeting, and I just asked someone from the station
who was a sergeant, what sort of training he had
had as it related to LGBTQ plus cultural competency. And
(29:30):
he said that he had been trained on the flags.
That was literally his answer.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
Oh, trained on the.
Speaker 13 (29:37):
Flag, literally the flags, that was his answer, and so
pride flags. He didn't even say Pride flags, he just
said the flags. So when that is an answer that
you get from a sheriff sergeant who is dedicated to
the West Hollywood station, it is troubling. To think that
(29:59):
not everyone at the station could receive the kind of
training one might expect in order to properly serve the
LGBTQ plus community and keep people safe.
Speaker 3 (30:09):
Someone want to respond, Yeah, it's kit. It's quite startling
that a chief or a share sergeant sergeant is the
least knowledgeable about LGBTQ or the community that he's serving
or that they're serving.
Speaker 7 (30:26):
But it goes to show you.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
How much inequality that not only our community have the
LGBT community have, but the black LGBT community have as well.
Speaker 6 (30:38):
And then this go to other concerns where I've been
blessed to have officers in my family and know about
different things that our people who speak to police reform. Right,
And that's the theory that most officers should also patrol
or work in their jurisdiction in which they live, just
so they're knowledgeable about.
Speaker 5 (30:58):
The community in which they serve.
Speaker 6 (31:00):
So when I heard those sentiments, I thought of that
and just saw how I see why that's such a theory,
how that could lead to success, because like he's saying,
how even she just said, mind you, we more than
fifty percent of our population is the LGBTQI plus like,
are you serious? So that that really struck that theory
(31:21):
to me.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
Most importantly, one of the interesting things is it is
this like lack of understanding just in general from law
enforcement about queer folks. I mean, have you had running?
You're talking about being in Weho having run. But I'm
just I'm thinking, you know, being dressed a different way
or like.
Speaker 7 (31:42):
That.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Like I'm trying to get the question about safety and
being out and being black and queer.
Speaker 4 (31:49):
So I feel safer when I look more feminine.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
Why is that?
Speaker 4 (31:53):
Because I know that they're scared of being caught either
a racist or a homophobe. Yeah, they're so scared of
it to try to stay as far away from it
as possible. But if I'm just you know, normally, like
with Sweatson and T Shirt, there's a nine times out
of ten chance that something is gonna go down if
something in my area happens in our master description, they're
gonna stop me, just you know, because based off how
(32:15):
I look. But if I'm feminine, they're like, he didn't
rob that bank. You know, there's no way he broke
into that car in a ten inch hell.
Speaker 6 (32:24):
And like I noticed to be true because a similar
experience back in Saint Louis. There was a robbery that
happened at a wing stop that we would frequent near
one of the major universities back home, and there was
an officer, a legitimate police officer. Because they were having
so many robberies on campus, I started to be a
(32:45):
rapport with so I went into the dialogue and totally
put me in the scenario. And of course, anyone who
knows me is that I'm usually nicely dress all. I
love a blouse and a blazer, and let's be clear,
even now I have a look at my chest opened.
Speaker 5 (33:01):
All that cute, no shame.
Speaker 6 (33:03):
But he told me that because you are black and
quit like how you look, you put an attention to
how you look. I would not say time because I
would not like, yeah, I would not profile you. But
if you walk in right now, you could have even
had the gun on you, right, he said no. But
you can see, like he told me, just because I
was black and gay, that he would not suspect me
(33:26):
to be a suspect.
Speaker 5 (33:27):
So I'm okay. So the girls you sent to the advantage,
let's be clear.
Speaker 4 (33:30):
So, because that's what the narrative is right now, it
is if you're well spoken, if you're femling in, if
you're safe, if you're if you're those things, if you're
to them, you're completely demasculated. But the feminine men are
the most like strong people I know, like they can
walk into any scenario and be utterly themselves and not
feel any type of way, right I care about Yeah,
(33:54):
the affairs of the world.
Speaker 7 (33:55):
I feel like the police, they don't scare me.
Speaker 4 (33:57):
Being a gay man walking into a cookout scared me
some time more than walking into straight like a straight set,
and I'm like dressed like I want to dress, and
I feel like, yeah, this is okay.
Speaker 3 (34:10):
Yeah, as someone who knows the victim, I won't be
able to put myself in the areas that this man
is like, or even put myself in a situation to
where we'll probably be at the same event or bar
or place.
Speaker 5 (34:30):
You know, that proximity is like shock I did.
Speaker 6 (34:35):
Yeah, And I think to me, that was also the
outrage that we had at that point, that not saying
that that first victim was forgivable, right, but to know
that within a two year period that there was another
victim and nothing still to be done, not to see
a pattern and then for him to roam amongst his neighborhood.
Speaker 5 (34:55):
And let's be clear, no, he's seeking another victim.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
One of the things that we suggested when we were
even doing this podcast that ed Buck, you're like at
Buck's not alone, Like this is just the type of
the that's you know, that's how we sold the That's
how we told people that is the tip of the
iceberg that this isn't. Yeah, you know, there's am I
right about that. There's so many bug let me keep
going gonna you're saying, no, there's just so many at Bucks.
(35:19):
There's so many at Bucks. There's so many groomers to
prepare you for ed Bucks. There's like systems in place,
and some of them are unbeknownst to the people that
are doing it, and some of them are very very intentional.
Like literally, if I dare you to put up a
grander profile that says twenty one with like a picture
(35:42):
of a guy sag in his pants or something, the
amount of people that will flood you with the party
emoji and like Roses saying that they'll give you money
and shit and Jen, I'm.
Speaker 7 (35:54):
Jen this BBC. I want to suck that dick. I
got some drugs for you. I got some money.
Speaker 3 (35:59):
Yeah, I feel like there are a lot of ads
out here, but I feel like the drugs, the drugs
are going to get to the people before the ds
get to the people. So I feel like crystal meth
is like a silent pandemic that's going on in the
black queer community, especially ballroom. And I feel like with
people hooked on these drugs, first, they'll put themselves in
(36:19):
situations to be taken advantage of by people like ed.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
If you're going to give somebody advice, who is you know,
coming from Saint Louis or Texas or Columbus, gay black
man getting on a plane heading to Los Angeles? What
advice would you give them?
Speaker 5 (36:45):
Stay true? Stay true?
Speaker 2 (36:47):
What does that mean you say? Stay true? Help me understand?
Speaker 6 (36:49):
So that was gonna leave you to my next point
of your focus. Always remember your why? What? What was
that motivation that fire beneath the win, beneath the wings too,
that had you come here? And I realized always being
at the foundation of the basis of my why has
kept me also has helped me out to navigate the terrain,
(37:12):
but allow to be also towards standing like the blows
and bolts of life, because that's one thing when I
realized I fell in love with Los Angeles. To me,
even the struggle became so beautiful, to be honest, because
I knew I belong here. So I knew with that
having that sense of hope and foundation and knowing that
I belong here, and I knew it was always going
(37:33):
to work out, and it has. I'm six years in
and still believed that the best years of my life
for her to come. And as I tell people when
they move her, I always tell them, trust me, you
stick it out to the best years of your life.
Speaker 4 (37:45):
What happened here right, Find your tribe, Find some people
that think more higher than you, some people that are elevated,
some people that want to be in positions that you
want to be in, or some people that.
Speaker 7 (37:55):
Are in position that you want to be in, and
come on and do the work. It's time. I'm also
saying that to myself.
Speaker 3 (38:02):
This is Cali speaking. I would say your faith will
get you very far. Sometimes you're going to be put
in situations to where you're not gonna see a way out,
or you're not going to have the solution or the answer.
But ultimately I feel like, if you stick to what
you know you set out to do, especially moving to LA,
then it to get you very far.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
All right, I'm gonna how do you avoid someone like that?
Speaker 5 (38:26):
Buck?
Speaker 6 (38:29):
Plainly, for me, I just don't date why. That's just
me prevention is better than cure. I'm just keeping a
hundred with the black ones. I just I don't date.
So Also, and this one thing I never got was
(38:49):
on set and another fellow gym and I shout up
to the geminis he was like his safety barriers five
above or five beneath. So I know so subconsciously, I
always look at that when I took this as age wise,
So five above and five unneath about a healthy medium
That's just my ed buck prevencing tactic.
Speaker 4 (39:11):
Let's be clear, okay, Oh for me, I would how
you stay away from an air buck is understanding that
you're worth is much more than one hundred dollars for
a quick blow and go a lot of it. It
just goes down to survival. Understanding that tomorrow you will
be alive and there will be an opportunity for you.
Go ahead, work at Starbucks, work at McDonald's. For the
(39:31):
time being, clean toilets if you have to. There's always
something else, because you're worth so much more.
Speaker 3 (39:39):
My advice to be to stay away from any kind
of air buoks, to try to refrain from doing hard
drugs or or substances that will take you out of
your right mind.
Speaker 7 (39:56):
Or take you up out of here.
Speaker 4 (39:58):
Okay, okay, okay, Michael Jackson, somebody else that was taken
too quick from a substance abuse problem.
Speaker 7 (40:11):
Propofol.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
You know when you were talking about when you come,
when you come to La, that you didn't that there
was a whole array that you didn't know that there
was like a system set.
Speaker 7 (40:23):
Up to prey on you. Yes, I didn't know.
Speaker 4 (40:26):
How do you How do we stop that from happening
by stopping the cycle with me? If anybody else you know,
have the power to do it, that's on them. But
I know I do. So I can create safe spaces.
I can get on platforms like this and tell young
men that you have a choice and you're beautiful. I
can tell my elders in my community that you have
(40:47):
a choice and you are beautiful, and to respect the
beauty of the youth because you were once young and
I want you to empathize empathy goes a long way
with the older, older, younger in between. We shattered the
system by being different than yesterday. If we expect the
same outcome in the same space, that's insanity. We have
(41:09):
to move if we want something different to happen. So
I encourage everybody to shift the way that they think,
in the way that they approach people love a little
bit harder.
Speaker 6 (41:18):
I'm a firm believer shot in the system by being
the biggest example, and historically those are the people that
we remember in history, vibrant examples, breaking down the Bible,
breaking down the artists some time, like different little things
were always different examples that people who shook the system.
Speaker 4 (41:37):
Yeah, Jesus was a system shatterer. Technically he was a
system shatterer anybody through time. So where do we go
from here? How do we shouter the system and thrive
in the new system that we create? Because if we
shattered this when we completely destroy it, so how do
we build?
Speaker 7 (41:53):
What do we build? How do we build it?
Speaker 4 (41:55):
That's the next questions I want to ask, not to
answer today, but that's the questions I'm asking myself leaving here,
What can I do and what is the system that
I want to look like, what can I do to
be the best.
Speaker 7 (42:08):
Uh uh version of yourself?
Speaker 10 (42:11):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (42:11):
How can I participate in this system and contribute to
it the best that I can?
Speaker 7 (42:15):
That's the questions that ask myself on nine Business. I
call that an ending. I think it's an ending. Thank you.
I appreciate you all your voice. I know I said that.
Speaker 2 (42:33):
Next, we wrap up this season with my conversation with
the founders of the Black and Missing Foundation. We talk
about why stories about black folks often get overlooked. This
is shattering the system. I'm Sinari Glinton. I wanted to
(42:55):
end these stories about the lies and deaths of Jamel
Moore and Timothy Dane with some thing that leads us
towards some solutions. You know, it took a lot of
effort to get the world to really pay attention to
these stories. But it's not an anomaly that stories about
crimes about black victims are often downplayed or the plight
of black people is just completely ignored. Natalie Wilson and
(43:18):
Dereka Wilson are the founders of the Black and Missing Foundation.
One is a lawyer and the other as a journalist,
and they came together to fight the apathy about black
people who go missing. So you know, if you can
walk me through the tragic event that you know, my
twin brother who doesn't exist that was missing, right, break
(43:41):
down what the response would be to that hypothetical missing
person versus a white person when they go missing.
Speaker 14 (43:50):
Well, first and foremost, I think it's so important for
your listeners to understand the process within the jurisdiction in
which you resign. There is no holy approach in the
missing person reporting structure. Every jurisdiction can operate in the
manner in which they choose. So, for example, some jurisdictions
(44:12):
require families to wait twenty four hours before following the
missing person's report, and we all know that the first
twenty four to forty eight hours are the most critical moments,
while other jurisdictions they allow those reports to be taken immediately.
Once that police report is taken, the next step is
for law enforcement to enter that case into NCIC, which
(44:36):
is the National Crime Information Center. That is how law
enforcement communicates across the country. So, for example, if you're
a twin brother went missing from California and someone comes
in contact with him, law enforcement comes in contact with him.
In Texas, or the vehicle that's associated with his disappearance
is in Texas. Once authorities run that tag, they would
(44:59):
know that your brother is missing from California. And that
is how law enforcement is to operate and putting this
information in. What we are seeing is that they are
using discretion in these cases. Sometimes they may put them in,
(45:20):
sometimes they may not. And when families go to law
enforcement and they get that missing person's case number, they
think that's the one and done. They're not aware that
the other process to this is entering it into NCIC,
creating a flyer to start circulating, a bolo be on
(45:41):
the lookout, circulating within the department as well as within
the community, notifying the media that there is a missing
person within the jurisdiction.
Speaker 9 (45:51):
Because awareness is key.
Speaker 12 (45:53):
And we know this.
Speaker 10 (45:55):
There's a missing white woman syndrome that when Eifel pined.
So if you're blonde and perceived as beautiful with blue eyes,
you get that around o'clock media coverage. If you are
from an urban area, you know the media isn't picking
up the story or there's no interest in it. We
(46:17):
weren't surprised about the study, but we were grateful that
it was done. And it's on our website. So your listeners, can,
you know, take the quiz and see how much media
coverage they can garner if they disappeared.
Speaker 2 (46:31):
The white girl missing syndrome. Hope me understand how that
idea plays into why you do your work.
Speaker 10 (46:37):
Well again, you know, stemming back to the inspiration behind
the organization. Tamika Houston couldn't get that media coverage. Why
Natalie Holloway dominated the new cycle. As a matter of fact,
last week they were talking about Natalie Holloway, right, So
if you go to Google and just see how many impressions,
(47:00):
how many news story have been have been done on
Natalie Holloway, Chandra Levy, Gabby Patito, and the list goes
on and on. It shows the inherent biases when it
comes to coverage of missing black.
Speaker 12 (47:17):
And brown women.
Speaker 10 (47:18):
And we can all name these these ladies again, the
Natalie Holloways, the Chandra Levy, the Gabby Patito. But can
your listeners name a person of color that is missing
and just start with your community?
Speaker 12 (47:32):
Can you name someone?
Speaker 10 (47:33):
Can you name someone that on a national level that
has gotten that national coverage ever?
Speaker 2 (47:39):
Like that's that's that's a really really interesting one. Ever,
like is that I don't know of a name of
a black girl whose name that has ever risen even
close to Natalie Holloway, who is uh missing on a
Caribbean island right, and it caused the firestorm? I mean,
are what are the what are the names that you know?
Why don't we do that now and list some of
(48:01):
the names that we should have known.
Speaker 10 (48:02):
That you should know. Keisha Jacobs, Tiffany Foster. You should
know Arianna Fitz. She was two years old when she
went missing from San Francisco. Her mother was found buried
in a grave.
Speaker 12 (48:18):
In a park.
Speaker 9 (48:19):
You should know, Melsia Rudd and Casey Young.
Speaker 10 (48:25):
Yeah, there's so many you should know, so many names
that you should know, Shariah Williams, Janiah Walker.
Speaker 9 (48:35):
Danielle Moss, Liam McDonald.
Speaker 10 (48:42):
And to learn more, you can definitely go to our
website at BAMFI dot org and just start with who's
missing from your community and help find them.
Speaker 2 (48:58):
I wonder if the direct link between the lack of
diversity and newsrooms and the alarm bell being raised about
black and brown people being missing. How does lack of
diversity in the journalism profession play into the lack of
attention to these kind of cases.
Speaker 10 (49:16):
Well, that's one issue, you are right, lack of diversity.
The decision makers in the newsrooms are typically middle aged,
white men, So are they really telling the stories that
matter to the community that they serve. But we also
challenge newsrooms across the country to create a policy as
(49:38):
to how they handle coverage of cases of missing people.
So if you were to call a newsroom and another
family calls a newsroom, who decides who gets coverage and sadly,
there is no policy to make staff aware so that
they can prevent intentional or unintentional biases in the coverage
(50:02):
of these stories.
Speaker 12 (50:04):
And also, you.
Speaker 10 (50:05):
Know, raising the alarm about the images that are used
in news coverage when they're telling the stories. Are they
showing you know, a mug shot or a provocative picture
that has been you know, downloaded from the missing person's
personal social media platforms?
Speaker 2 (50:24):
Or there are way morery about this, like can you
drill down on images and how we talk about these
victims a little more so.
Speaker 10 (50:32):
The perception is many times, and we see this every
single day, that the person that has disappeared they have
gotten what they deserve. They come from marginalized communities, and
what we are trying to do is to change the
narrative that these are our missing mothers and fathers, sisters, brothers,
valuable members of our community. So what we have been
(50:54):
seeing the images that are being used for news coverage,
they are a continuing to instill that public perception and
those stereotypes that this person isn't worthy enough to be found.
And I'll give you an example. There was a young
lady missing out of South Carolina and we provided the
(51:18):
media outlet with pictures that the family gave.
Speaker 12 (51:22):
They didn't use them.
Speaker 10 (51:24):
They went to her social media platform and downloaded some
pictures you know, for her that she posted, and the
community was outraged because it was a distraction from finding
her and it gave off that stereotype that she was promiscuous,
which she wasn't and it had nothing to do with
her disappearance. And I'd also like to add, you're right,
(51:46):
sometimes what we do is very frustrating, right, but it's
also rewarding when we are able to find someone and
reunite them with their loved ones and we know.
Speaker 12 (52:00):
That that family can sleep at night, you know.
Speaker 10 (52:04):
And as we peel back to layers, we are realizing
that there's so many systemic issues in our communities that
need to be resolved, homelessness, jobs, you know, mental health,
and that's an issue.
Speaker 12 (52:21):
That we need to talk about.
Speaker 2 (52:27):
When you look at the homeless population, especially with young people,
or when you see people run away or those things,
I have to imagine that a large percentage of those
of the black and brown missing people are gay and lesbian.
Help me understand how being gay or queer rather feeds
(52:47):
into this problem we are seeing.
Speaker 10 (52:50):
And we've had some cases of missing individuals from the
LGBTQ community, and it's something that we are taking a
closer look at to see how we can you know,
better support them and you know better provide them with
(53:11):
the resources that they need.
Speaker 12 (53:13):
It's new to us. Our focus is.
Speaker 10 (53:15):
On men, women, and children to holistically help bring awareness
to their disappearance and to find them. But we are
seeing more and more LGBTQ members disappearing, so we're taking
a look into that as well.
Speaker 5 (53:32):
Well.
Speaker 14 (53:32):
There's certainly going to increase thirty percent a missing person
in the United States or persons of color, and that
number has since increased to forty percent.
Speaker 9 (53:40):
So the numbers are am army.
Speaker 2 (53:43):
Now I'm a journalist. What can journalists do in their
newsrooms to make your job easier?
Speaker 10 (53:50):
One, Please reach out to the pios, the public information
officers for these law enforcement agencies because they are low
for stories.
Speaker 12 (54:01):
They want to tell the stories.
Speaker 10 (54:04):
To be mindful of the images that are being used
when you're telling this story, and to create a policy
to even the plane field. When it comes to missing
people of color, don't just this miss you know the
when you get the phone call and use your social
(54:26):
media platforms. Yes, you may not be able to show
it on the typical news cycle, but you can you know,
your personal social media platform or the news station. So
there's so much change or advocating for change in policies
that journalists and newsrooms across the country can do.
Speaker 2 (54:49):
What about law enforcement? You know, if you can walk
into you know, La or Detroit or one of those
cities and something or get them to change something, what
would that be? What what would what would solutions look
like in law enforcement? That's a better question.
Speaker 14 (55:09):
Well, dedicating and more resources to the missing person unit
as a whole. When it comes to missing person it's
not considered a priority, especially when it's adults, because adults
can come and go as they please. So you know,
when you're looking at law enforcement, their resources are dedicated
to the homicide divisions, those high crime areas, but the
(55:33):
stats don't lie. I mean, you know, with the number
of people that are going this in every year, more
agencies need to have more bodies in that division. And
also seeing organizations such as the Black Livestic Foundation as
an ally, you know, we're not trying to overstep our boundaries.
Speaker 9 (55:52):
We want to partner with law enforcement and we.
Speaker 14 (55:56):
Understand that there are limited resources right now. All these
police departments they're suffer from staffing issues, but seeing us
as a valuable partner where they can utilize our platform
to upload missing individuals from their jurisdiction so we can
help bring awareness and eventually help bring them home.
Speaker 9 (56:16):
So those are a few things. And then enhance training.
Speaker 14 (56:19):
You know, there needs to be that culture diversity, that
sensitivity training with law enforcement. You know, again, as I
mentioned that there's a shortage, a lot of police departments
are recruiting, you know, across the country and a lot
of people that are on the force now are policing
a community that they're not from, and so that makes
(56:41):
it very challenging when you're policing a community that you're
not from to really understand that community. So we really
need to get back to the basics, and we need
to enhance the training and get rid of that classification
run away. They're missing when it's a child and that
child is missing, that child is endangered, and we know
that every three children that run away are solicited for sex.
(57:08):
And then lastly, the point that I love to make
is review those policy and procedures and get rid of
that twenty four hour waiting period.
Speaker 10 (57:18):
And can I just add one more thing. I want
to tell journalists why they matter. Well, one, media coverage
puts pressure on law enforcement to add resources to the case,
and as Derek mentioned, law enforcement typically are not taking
these cases seriously. But your coverage will also alert the
(57:39):
wider community that someone is missing, and it can increase
the chance of a recovery because we know that within
the first twenty four to forty eight hours are the
most critical times.
Speaker 2 (57:58):
That's Natalie and Dereka Wilson, co founders of the Black
and Missing Foundation. You can find them at Black and Missinginc.
Dot com. That's Black and Missing i NC dot com.
We've covered a lot of territory of the course of
this podcast, ed Buck is in prison, and that was
a real victory. Ed Buck wasn't allowed to kill gay
(58:18):
black men with impunity. What was true when ed Buck
was on the streets is still true now. Sadly, it
took a whole federal case to get ed Buck off
the streets, and that's still infuriating.
Speaker 7 (58:30):
You know.
Speaker 2 (58:31):
I see a direct line between Letitia Nixon and Mamie Till,
the mother of Emmettil, and the tremendous effort that Letitian
Nixon made to honor her son is a part of
a very long legacy. I sat with Letitian Nixon at
a bar after sentencing, and when I asked her what
made her fight, she said, Jamel was my baby, and
(58:54):
she said she didn't care what the world thought of him.
She had to fight for him. And if Jamel Moore's
death filled me with rage, then that conversation with his
mother has given me hope. While the death of Jamel
Moore and Timothy Dean was senseless, and it fills me
with anger, more anger than when we started. And actually,
(59:16):
if you are less angry after listening to the series,
then when we started, then we haven't done our jobs.
While we haven't solved the problems that ed Buck exposed
in the system, hopefully we expose the systems that allowed
him to get away with it for so long. We
sought to honor the memory of Jammel Moore and Timothy Dean,
(59:37):
and I think of a quote from the Holocaust survivor
Ellie Gizl for the dead and the living, we must
bear witness. Not only are we responsible for the memories
of the dead, we are responsible for what we do
with those memories. Well, that's show. I'm grateful, especially to
(01:00:02):
all the folks on this team, the individual names that
I will read in the credits, this team that is
given me so much space and grace to tell this
story for them, I will be eternally grateful. Let us
know what you think. Leave your thoughts about the series
and the comments. Is there someone who's using the system
(01:00:22):
to cover up their crimes in your area? What's the
system you think needs to be shattered? This is Shattering
the System, the true crime podcast that's about more than crime.
I'm Scenario Glinton, Thank you so very much. Shattering the
(01:01:07):
System is a production of Macro Studios and iHeart Podcasts.
I'm your host Sinari Glinton. Follow me at s O
n ari I one on Instagram. Our series executive producers
are Charles King, Asha corpus, Win Royal Reccio, Jonathan Hunger,
Lindsay Hoffman and Scenari Glinton.
Speaker 5 (01:01:28):
That's Me.
Speaker 2 (01:01:28):
Our show is co written and produced by Ralph Cooper
the Third. Erica Rodriguez is our associate producer. Dana Conway
is our archival producer. Chris Mann is our audio engineer.
Sound design and music provided by Chris Mann with pod Shaper.
Special thanks to Karen Griggsby, Bates Port, Robertson, Nigas and
(01:01:49):
Lisa Pollock.
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