August 3, 2023 • 35 mins
What happens when Black LGBTQ lives don't seem to matter.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
In this podcast, we're going to talk frankly but sensitively
about issues some people might find disturbing, including rape and suicide.
If you or someone you know is suicidal in the
US Down nine eighty eight, check out this podcast notes
page for information on LGBT plus mental health resources in
your community.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
I'm sitting on the stoop of an apartment that has
become kind of infamous in West Hollywood. There's some words
that will just always stay with you. This is one
sentence that has stuck with everyone who's worked on this podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
If it didn't I hurt so bad, I kill myself,
but I'll let ed Buck do it for now.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
That's an actor reading Jamelle Morre's diary. We're going to
use an actor to bring voice to his words, and
I kind of feel like a bears repeating in my
own voice. If it didn't hurt so bad, I kill myself,
but I'll let Buck do it for now. Jamel Moore
wrote those words well, he could have been any twenty
six year old who found himself exploring the fun and
(01:08):
not so fun parts of West Hollywood. The thing is
he wasn't just any twenty six year old. And if
he had been I wouldn't be standing on the street
talking about him. Jammel Moore was, among other things, a diarist,
and like Queen Victoria and Frank and Andy Warhol, he
poured his emotions into a journal.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
I honestly don't know what to do. Become addicted to drugs,
the worst one at that.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Jammel's diary tells the world that it was ed Buck
who got him addicted to crystal meth amphetamine. Meth can
be taken in many forms, pill forms, snorting. The most
common practice is smoking, but like many drugs, injecting it
makes the high more immediate as well as doing more damage.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Ed Buck one to think he gave me my first
injection of crystal myth. It was painful, but after all
the troubles, I became addicted to the pain and the fetish.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
In this episode, we're going to talk about the crimes
of ed Buck. The thing is, I don't believe he's alone.
Actually I know he's not alone.
Speaker 4 (02:24):
After Jamuel was gone, I didn't all think that it
was going to be swept under the rug like that.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Samuel Lloyd was a very good friend of Jamel. These
clips that we're going to hear are from a documentary
Jammel in tim It.
Speaker 4 (02:39):
Was a surreal realization of how invaluable my life is.
A black gay man was.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
The rawness and the anger of Jamel's friends. It's right
there on the surface. You know, for every beautiful young
man that shows up in West Hollywood to have fun,
make a life, or let's be honest, escape most parts
of the United States, it feels like there's just a
team of vultures sitting on the fence waiting for him
to fuck up. A hard truth is that it is
(03:07):
financially hard for queer people. There is a myth that
gay men, for instance, are financially better off. I'm an
economics reporter and a gay man, and in my expert opinion,
that notion is the purest form of bullshit. The series,
the show is about power and how it's used. You
(03:27):
have men like Jamel Moore or his friend Samuel Lloyd struggling,
and then you have ed Buck and he is not
alone sitting on the fence waiting.
Speaker 4 (03:39):
You like to be in new places and be where
nobody knew him, and you know, be the boy.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
That was mysterious.
Speaker 4 (03:47):
He didn't talk very much and you know, and just
kind of give a little bit, give a little bit
here and a little bit there, and maybe do a
little bit something crazy and then just doesn't hear you
love doing that.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
The difference between Jamel Moore and other victims is that
Jamel wrote his problems down.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
Man, something is seriously wrong with me and my body.
I don't feel normal. I honestly think he has to
do with the judge. It makes me feel horrible, like
I'm so tired of living this life.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
As sad as those words are, Jammel's diary allowed him
something and death that he'd never received in life. His
diary is how Jammel Moore was heard. It was his
diary that allowed his mother to understand what happened. It
was his diary that resonated with so many queer people,
and it was his diary that helped the local journalists
(04:43):
start a movement that would strike at the core of
political life in Los Angeles.
Speaker 5 (04:48):
I I've been to jail, I I've been ragged and
being many time. I've lont my job, I've lost my apartment.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
This is shattering the systems. The true crime podcast that's
about more than Crome. The life of Jamel Moore after
this break In two thousand and nine, Jamel Moore arrived
(05:23):
in Los Angeles, and like so many gay black men
before him, he almost immediately got involved with ballroom or
ball culture. Jamel joined the House of Combe, the Garsans,
headed by the transactivist Gia Banks. Now, ballroom is kind
of hard to describe, but I need to take more
than a moment, especially given the climate of anti gay,
(05:44):
anti trans, and anti drag laws in the US right now.
Ballroom is a kind of competition where different houses compete
against each other. Essentially and what I would all the
Olympics of drag. They have to think of drag in
this context as broadly as possible. It's about whether or
(06:07):
not you can pull off the look or serve realness.
There are all kinds of categories schoolboy, traditional, drag, military.
Speaker 6 (06:16):
If I was to see look at you and guess
your category, I would say it would be which queen
realness bring it in a sports effect.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
I needed some help explaining bal culture in its place
in black gay life.
Speaker 6 (06:29):
My name is Sean Torrenton. I am one of the
founders of Slave TV, the premier destination for LGBTQ entertainment.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Shawn is currently a member of the House of Basquiat,
but he and Jamel were once a member of the
same house, though they never knowingly cross pass. But we
wanted to talk to Sean in part because, well, my
producers and I have become really fascinated with bald culture
and how it kind of forms a safety debt for black,
gay and trans folks.
Speaker 6 (06:57):
Just growing up like a ball would be considered a
safe space for black and like latinx LGBTQ folks, particularly
who are like often facing like multiple layers of discrimination
and marginal marginalists, marginalism, marginalization.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
I always fuck that word up.
Speaker 6 (07:18):
Excuse me another word just discrimination and just being outcasted
from society and the communities made up of houses which
are like essentially chosen families that provide a sense of
like belonging and acceptance and families for everyone within the house.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Importantly for this story, Sean Torrenton has been a part
of ball culture in New York and LA.
Speaker 6 (07:44):
So I would say LA ballroom is keeping it all
school because it's the smallest scene. LA is about like
everybody's just enjoying eachself is family. When when you go
to the ball everybody's love and everybody just know each
other and everybody's connected somehow, So I do of that
aspect of the la ballroom scene.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
The latest iteration of ball culture got its start alongside
the age crisis in New York during the nineteen eighties,
and movies like Paris Is Burning brought ball culture above ground.
In the nineties, when baal culture reached kind of a
cultural peak, I snuck off to more than my fair
share in New York from college. That was an important
(08:23):
part of my coming out. Sean says, it's important to
understand why black and LATINX queer folk are so drawn
to this world.
Speaker 6 (08:32):
The draw to this world is, you know, well as
far as like and I'm just gonna say me, when
you are a young kid and you are you know,
you didn't come from a privileged background, and the only
(08:54):
way out of your situation is through imagination. But then
you come to a place where everybody is living in
this fantasy and you getting all these cheers and all
these accolades because you are being your full authentic self.
That draws people in, and you are considered a celebrity
(09:15):
in that community, that would draw anybody in. It's fame
is what we all want. But even though you people
say they don't want it, everybody wants a little bit
of it.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
While doing research for this show, I found the writings
of Channing Gerard Joseph. He's a queer author in a
Storian He traced the roots of drag and his child
ballroom or ball culture back to Washington, d c. Of
the eighteen eighties, and according to Joseph, essentially drag was
founded in protest against homophobia and racism when a former
(09:48):
slave named William Dorsey Swan became the first queer activist.
He was arrested for protesting new laws that were being
enacted at the time that made dressing as the opposite
sex illegal. This was the same time that voting rights
were being taken away from former slaves. Sound familiar, Well,
the former slave William Swan became the first documented person
(10:11):
to proclaim himself a queen of Drag or simply the
Queen Sean Torrington says, you can see a direct line
between the protests and community that William Swan created in
the ball community that he, Jamel and I were a
part of.
Speaker 6 (10:26):
A lot of times people don't even have a place
to sleep, you know, they walk these balls for the
cash categories so they can pay their rent. This is
their way to make money. Some girls, in order to survive,
they have to escorre, you know, sex works.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Many of the houses now have relationships with brands and
social service organizations. The house that Sean Torrington is a
part of now is able to provide some housing, about
ten to fifteen units, but that is a drop in
the bucket when you consider that the homeless population of
Los Angeles County it's about seventy six thousand on any
given night. Jamel Moore found the same escape in being
(11:07):
himself as the former slave William Swan did in the
eighteen eighties, that I did in the nineteen nineties, or
that O'shee Sibley, the dancer who was murdered at twenty
eight in Brooklyn did this summer. He was murdered for
dancing voguing. That's a dance that goes all the way
back to a dance called the cakewalk, a dance that
(11:28):
slaves did. The rent in Los Angeles is now and
was too damn high. When Jamel got to LA it
was hard for him to have steady, reliable housing. He
(11:51):
bounced around between friends, couches, and sometimes sleep on the streets. Now,
while bal culture is a real thing and the relations
chips are real, it's not like joining the house comes
with a job. Samuel Lloyd says so eloquently, if you're
not making two hundred and fifty thousand dollars in Los Angeles,
you're certainly not living in the American dream. Now, with
(12:13):
not a lot of job prospects, it's not hard to
see how a handsome young man would turn to sex work,
especially in a town with a lot of rich gay men,
many of them closeted offering hundreds of dollars for sex.
Speaker 7 (12:30):
It is the person who has everything and offers you
everything with this particular type of risk, i e.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
The math and the sex.
Speaker 7 (12:44):
Those type of offers are A young, poor black queer
person has to balance out. Do I eat today, do
I have shelter today? And do I engage in this
activity that may be dangerous, But at least I ate,
At least I have money in my pocket. At least
I'm gonna be okay for a days.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
It's around this time that Jamel told a friend that
he was seeing a white john in West Hollywood who
had messaged him on.
Speaker 5 (13:09):
Adam for Adam so Jamel Moore new Buck for a
long time. They kind of had not, I guess a
very long time, but they had a long standing relationship
that was predicated on party and play.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Lindsay Bailey is one of the federal prosecutors who would
eventually try at Buck.
Speaker 5 (13:29):
So essentially, party in play is what would happen. Is
Jammel would go over to mister Buck's house. Buck would
provide him with methamphetamine, and in exchange, they would engage
in some sort of sexual play. So sometimes just touching,
a lot of times it would be you know, sexual photographs,
different types of photographs.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
We're going to get back to Lindsay Bailey, the prosecutor,
but I need to explain party and play for those
who don't know. In the gay world, party has taken
on a completeletely different meaning. Alex Garner is an author
and activist. He's also a former sex worker.
Speaker 8 (14:06):
Party in play is simply a reference to using drugs
while having sex. Usually that means the use of crystal
meth while having sex. It usually means for an extended
period of time.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
Because the high from crystal can hit quickly, but mats
almost as quick and also if you use. Often people
get into a cycle of binge and crash, and that
can lead to going on the run, which means giving
up food and sleep while continuing to take meth every
few hours and have sex for several days.
Speaker 8 (14:42):
And then, in terms of when it became sort of
part of the vernacular of the culture partying play within
the per contexts that usually almost referred to almost always
referred to crystal meth or some meth was almost always
involved in some way. Even though drug use could range
from marijuana to ecstasy, to to kintamine to cocaine, chrystal
(15:03):
meth became the sort of lightning rod when we talked
about party and play in the US context.
Speaker 5 (15:08):
And sometimes Jamal would be paid for those sessions in cash.
Sometimes it would just be in drugs and they would
both smoke methamphetamine. But what Buck really liked to do
was slam, so that's injecting methamphetamine directly into your veins.
And they had that relationship for a long time.
Speaker 3 (15:29):
I pray that I can just get my life together
and make it make sense. I hope so many people,
but I can't seem to help myself. I honestly don't
know what to do become addicted to drugs, and the
worst one at that. Ed Buck is the one to think.
He gave me my first injection of crystal myth. It
(15:50):
was painful, but after all the troubles, I became addicted
to the pain and the fantasy.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
You can hear the pain and anguish. Jamel did the
best he possibly could to break his addiction. You know,
I got to say, it's not just the fact that
ed Buck introduced Jamel to slamming that's so appalling, or
the way he treated his victims, it was the illusion
that he cared about them. There are so many gay
white men who I've run into who say shit like
(16:22):
I'm not racist, I love black men, or I only
date black men, but then every single part of how
they act dehumanizes black men. I'm one hundred percent no,
I'm actually a one thousand percent sure that ed Buck
said that he loved black men. But here's the thing.
Ed Buck paid black men to do crystal meth so
(16:44):
that he could take pictures of them in underwear, and
he wasn't really interested in sex necessarily, but he paid
to humiliate and torture black men. For instance, he paid
them to let him call them nigger.
Speaker 9 (16:59):
Seeking out men in that category and providing them food, shelter,
and drugs, You know, are the signs of somebody with
a scheme in mind.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
When a white man is paying you to call you
a nigger, he ain't your friend. This was something that
Jamel Moore understood. He was horrified and troubled by what
ed Buck was making him do, and in the fall
of twenty sixteen, Jamel called his mother in tears, screaming
into the phone, saying, this man shot me up with
some stuff. I don't even know what it is. And
(17:31):
by the way, he did everything he could to quote
handle his life well, which meant getting the fuck away
from ed Buck now. With help from friends, he did
just that, moving back to his family in Texas in
the spring of twenty seventeen. So many of the things
that he needed to get his life together, they just
(17:53):
weren't available to Jamel. For instance, he was beyond the
age of being able to be on his parents' health insurance,
was in withdrawal. He needed more than willpower, He probably
needed consistent medical care, trauma therapy, rehab a detox is.
Withdrawal symptoms were mistaken for pneumonia, Lindsey Bailey picks up
(18:14):
the timeline.
Speaker 5 (18:15):
In July of twenty seventeen. I think Jamel was an
addict and needed another fix, essentially, and so he reached
out to the person that he knew would reliably get
it to him. He sent Buck a text message that
said I've been missing La, along with a video of
somebody being slammed with methamphetamine and a question mark. Buck
(18:39):
responded with I believe the text was along the lines
of be here now, and he bought Jamel a one
way ticket from Texas to Los Angeles. Jamel took a
backpack and basically everything he owned, got on that plane
and flew from Texas to Los Angeles. Buck sent someone
to pick him up from the airport. The driver picked
(19:02):
him up at I believe it was about one PM,
and he got to Buck's apartment at about one forty
five PM, went inside and never came out.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
No one knows exactly what happened after Jammel walked into
that apartment.
Speaker 5 (19:16):
There weren't photos or videos from that day, but we
can imagine that it was much like other times in
which Buck slammed Jammel, probably to the point where he
lost consciousness. And died. Buck went to a neighbor to
ask what to do. The neighbor started to perform CPR
(19:36):
while Buck called nine to one to one, and when
the paramedics got there, Jammel was already gone.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
For Los Angeles County Sheriff's deputies responded to a nine
to one one call from North Laurel Avenue in West Hollywood.
A young black man was lying unresponsive on a mattress
on the floor, naked except for white sox. Tennant's name
was ed Buck. He described the dead man as his friend.
(20:06):
Buck said his friend had ejected meth. A little after that,
he said his friend became very warm to the touch.
It took ed Buck almost two hours just to pick
up a phone and call police. This is shattering the system.
More after this, this is shattering the system. I'm Sonari Glennon.
(20:37):
When we left off, Jamel Moore lay dead in Edbuck's apartment, cold,
naked and alone. The last thing Jamel Moore saw would
have been pretty frightening. Buck's home was genuinely a frightening place.
(20:58):
He had photos of all kinds of politicians in prominent places,
but also there was a ray of gear devil mass
gas masks, all kinds of paraphernalia. Henry Scott, the former
editor of Ujoville, said they called Buck's apartment the gates
of Hell for a.
Speaker 10 (21:16):
Reason, and ed Buck's apartment and insanely he allowed photographs
to be taken by some of the text workers. The
living room, there's a big matt press on the floor,
there's a sofa. There are bins of a drug paraphernalia
in store.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
Ed Buck Long had a reputation for being obsessed with
black men. Henry Scott, the journalist, talked a lot about
his obsession with black men.
Speaker 10 (21:44):
He had several little plastic bins in his living room
of white underwear, and he insisted that the young gay
black men put on whiteies. That was one of the passions.
He claimed that he actually was friends for these young
men he used. He told me at one point that
Jamel Moore was a young friend of his who he
(22:06):
had helped through life. That's what he claimed.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
An investigator arrived from the Los Angeles County Medical Examiner's office.
On the floor next to Jamel, he noted ziploc bags
swelled with water. A rolling toolbox was parked against the wall.
Inside were several syringes with brown residue, a scale, lighters,
a straw, a glass pipe with burn marks, and a
(22:33):
clear plastic bag containing a crystal like substance. The examiner
was able to unlock his phone using his password nineteen
ninety one, Jammel's birth year. According to news reports, there
was a text from American Airlines that said that Jammel
had flown that morning from Houston to lax. The examiner
(22:54):
performed an autopsy. There were no signs of visible trauma.
There was, however, puncture wounds visible on his left in
our forearm. Jamel tested positive from methan fetamine and the
examiner found quote a notebook located in the decedent's property
that indicated using intravenous drugs with ed Buck in the past. Again,
(23:17):
reports say that the examiner ruled the death and accidental
methan fetamine overdose. In less than five days after his death,
the case was closed. Jamel Moore died on July twenty seventh,
twenty seventeen. Meanwhile, ed Buck was a man about town.
(23:41):
By the Thursday after Jamel's death, he showed up at
a Wiho City meeting of the Stonewall Steering Committee of
the Democratic Party. Now that's a gay arm of the
local party. There was Buck Chilling, pretending that nothing was wrong.
Speaker 11 (24:00):
Than that shouldn't have happened. It just shouldn't have happened.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
By August first, Jamel's mother, Letitia Nixon, began contacting all
kinds of media outlets to try to draw attention to
the plight of her son.
Speaker 11 (24:19):
My son filed police reports. He's be cried out to
so many people, and we all failed them. I just
hope that the Sheriff's department does not fail my son.
I'm asking for justice. It's crazy how the whole entire
situation was handled. My son's dead and five days later
(24:41):
the case is closed. I just want justice. That's it.
My whole life has been turned upside down when you
fight for the ones you love, and I will not
stop until I get justice ed. Buck needs to be
held to accountability for all the things that he's done.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Letitia Nixon would soon get the attention of a small
local website called we Ho Times. The story contained most
of what Nixon claimed. The story would also contain this
titbed that would bring the case to national attention, if
not an arrest. It called ed Buck quote one of
California's most prolific and substantial political donors, a detail that
(25:34):
many readers in Los Angeles were completely astonished to hear. Now,
while the local media began to take notice, the Sheriff's
office failed to mail more this time around. Lindsay Horvath
was on the city council when Jamel Moore died. She
served two terms as mayor, long before the death of
ed Buck's apartment. They were on the opposite sides. How
(25:58):
do you choose not align?
Speaker 12 (26:00):
There were any number of issues. I was a big
affordable housing advocate. He opposed many projects. He lived in
rent controlled housing, but he was wanting to close the
door on a lot of people from being a part
of the West Hollywood community in a lot of different ways.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
What are those? I mean a lot of different ways.
It seems like there was an eternity in that phrase.
Speaker 12 (26:20):
Well, I think that there's a lot that he did
that was not about creating an inclusive community, which I
think a lot of people come to West Hollywood.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
For help me understand where what would frustrate you about, say,
the sheriff's deputies and dealing with the death of Jamel Moore.
Speaker 12 (26:41):
Oh wow, it was more than frustration.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Lindsay Horbath was a council person at the time, her
frustration with police and especially the sheriff reached a boiling point.
Speaker 12 (26:53):
It was absolutely devastating to hear about the death of
Jammel Moore. The sheriff's deputies who were involved in the
investigation had indicated at some point thereafter that it wasn't
(27:16):
the first time that they had been called to that
particular residence, and so not only in that specific investigation,
but just knowing that there are there were ongoing issues
with that residence and to know that ultimately it resulted
(27:37):
in the death of now we know multiple people at
that residence was just absolutely heartbreaking. To know that it
was something that was known to law enforcement and yet
and yet it still happened.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
Horvath was among a handful of politicians who spoke out earlier,
like Mike Bonnam, let.
Speaker 13 (28:00):
Them know that there is someone in office with some
influence who is going to be calling the sheriff, and
is going to be calling the district attorney, and is
going to be asking for a thorough and complete investigation
into this death and the circumstances around it.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
One of the biggest mysteries of this story is why
the then La County District Attorney, Jackie Lacy, chose not
to pursue a case against ed Buck after the death
of Jamel Moore.
Speaker 12 (28:30):
She chose not to bring the case, say more, I
think I think it was a choice, and there was
speculation as to why she made that choice, whether it
was his political contributions or political influence, whether she didn't
want to take on what she perceived to be of
(28:52):
flaws in the sheriff's investigation and expose those publicly, But
for whatever reason, she chose not to pursue the case.
I called her office after Jammel Moore's death several days
in a row, asking her office to help create safety
for people who wanted to come forward and testify and
share information about what they knew about the circumstances surrounding
(29:17):
Jammel's death, but what they also knew in terms of
the circumstances of what happened at that residence. And it
took many people coming forward, including my phone calls, not
only including my phone calls, for her to even be
willing to grant immunity for people to come forward and
(29:37):
share valuable information.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
All of this is entirely structural Alex Garner, the former
sex worker and present day author and activists, and.
Speaker 8 (29:47):
Those structures create the vulnerabilities that allow someone to be mistreated.
Because someone like Ed Buck can I recognize those vulnerabilities
that the system has created and realized they can take
advantag of it. Because if you're young, gay and black
and doing sex work, you have no expectation that the
(30:07):
police are going to take you seriously or do anything
to protect you. There's still profound stigma associated with being
sex work, with being a sex worker, or just having
(30:28):
gay sex. So having to talk to a healthcare professional
or a legal representative about your sex life is inherently
difficult because of the in trensed homophobia in our culture
and society, not to mention obviously in trenched racism in
(30:49):
terms of our relationship to the criminal justice system. So
those vulnerabilities are created by a system, a system that
is incredibly strong. But people who want to take advantage
of others can identify that and say, oh, I know
that they're less likely to call the police on me
(31:10):
for this reason. I know I can push them a
little bit more with a few extra dollars for this reason.
I know I can get them to be silent about
this for this reason. So it really is all of
these structural issues around jobs, housing, mental health and health
(31:30):
and physical health, and then homophobia, racism, classism, all of
these sorts of things are immigration policies. All of these
things construct a world in which someone has to function
and is largely vulnerable because of these structures.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
And even while articles were being written, ed Buck was
still luring men to his apartment with the promise of
money and drugs.
Speaker 10 (32:09):
He was a troublesome kid.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
On the next Shattering the System, Sympathy for the Devil,
a Rise and Fall of ed Buck.
Speaker 10 (32:22):
His mother, interviewed over the years, said she knew when
the phone would ring it would be the school reporting
another problem. But her son, she picked up the phone saying,
now what's he doing? So he was a little bit difficult.
He was a very handsome young man. He became a model.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
I'm Scenari Glinton and this is Shattering a Sisco. Shattering
the System is a production of Macro Studios and iHeart Podcasts.
I'm your host, Scenario Glinton. You can follow me on
Instagram at snari plus. The Number one. Our executive producers
(33:05):
are Charles D. King, Asha Corpus, Win Royo Reccio, Jonathan Unger,
Lindsay Hoffman, and Sonari Lenton. That's Me. Our podcast is
co written and produced by Ralph Cooper the Third and
Ben Cory Jones. Erica Rodriguez is our associate producer. Dana
Conway is our archival producer, Chris Mann is the audio engineer,
(33:25):
and Lisa Pollock is our consulting editor. Sound design and
music provided by Chris Mann with pod Shaper clips were
provided by the TYT Network. The Young Turks Special thanks
to Portia Robertson Maigas and Karen Grigsby Bates, and to
Michael Thomas of the Jamel and Tim documentary and filmmaker
(33:45):
Jace Bryan of the Beyond at Buck documentary. Stay tuned
for sympathy for who That's Next on Shattering the System
Wow
In this podcast, we're going to talk frankly but sensitively
about issues some people might find disturbing, including rape and suicide.
If you or someone you know is suicidal in the
US Down nine eighty eight, check out this podcast notes
page for information on LGBT plus mental health resources in
your community.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
I'm sitting on the stoop of an apartment that has
become kind of infamous in West Hollywood. There's some words
that will just always stay with you. This is one
sentence that has stuck with everyone who's worked on this podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
If it didn't I hurt so bad, I kill myself,
but I'll let ed Buck do it for now.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
That's an actor reading Jamelle Morre's diary. We're going to
use an actor to bring voice to his words, and
I kind of feel like a bears repeating in my
own voice. If it didn't hurt so bad, I kill myself,
but I'll let Buck do it for now. Jamel Moore
wrote those words well, he could have been any twenty
six year old who found himself exploring the fun and
(01:08):
not so fun parts of West Hollywood. The thing is
he wasn't just any twenty six year old. And if
he had been I wouldn't be standing on the street
talking about him. Jammel Moore was, among other things, a diarist,
and like Queen Victoria and Frank and Andy Warhol, he
poured his emotions into a journal.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
I honestly don't know what to do. Become addicted to drugs,
the worst one at that.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Jammel's diary tells the world that it was ed Buck
who got him addicted to crystal meth amphetamine. Meth can
be taken in many forms, pill forms, snorting. The most
common practice is smoking, but like many drugs, injecting it
makes the high more immediate as well as doing more damage.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Ed Buck one to think he gave me my first
injection of crystal myth. It was painful, but after all
the troubles, I became addicted to the pain and the fetish.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
In this episode, we're going to talk about the crimes
of ed Buck. The thing is, I don't believe he's alone.
Actually I know he's not alone.
Speaker 4 (02:24):
After Jamuel was gone, I didn't all think that it
was going to be swept under the rug like that.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Samuel Lloyd was a very good friend of Jamel. These
clips that we're going to hear are from a documentary
Jammel in tim It.
Speaker 4 (02:39):
Was a surreal realization of how invaluable my life is.
A black gay man was.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
The rawness and the anger of Jamel's friends. It's right
there on the surface. You know, for every beautiful young
man that shows up in West Hollywood to have fun,
make a life, or let's be honest, escape most parts
of the United States, it feels like there's just a
team of vultures sitting on the fence waiting for him
to fuck up. A hard truth is that it is
(03:07):
financially hard for queer people. There is a myth that
gay men, for instance, are financially better off. I'm an
economics reporter and a gay man, and in my expert opinion,
that notion is the purest form of bullshit. The series,
the show is about power and how it's used. You
(03:27):
have men like Jamel Moore or his friend Samuel Lloyd struggling,
and then you have ed Buck and he is not
alone sitting on the fence waiting.
Speaker 4 (03:39):
You like to be in new places and be where
nobody knew him, and you know, be the boy.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
That was mysterious.
Speaker 4 (03:47):
He didn't talk very much and you know, and just
kind of give a little bit, give a little bit
here and a little bit there, and maybe do a
little bit something crazy and then just doesn't hear you
love doing that.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
The difference between Jamel Moore and other victims is that
Jamel wrote his problems down.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
Man, something is seriously wrong with me and my body.
I don't feel normal. I honestly think he has to
do with the judge. It makes me feel horrible, like
I'm so tired of living this life.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
As sad as those words are, Jammel's diary allowed him
something and death that he'd never received in life. His
diary is how Jammel Moore was heard. It was his
diary that allowed his mother to understand what happened. It
was his diary that resonated with so many queer people,
and it was his diary that helped the local journalists
(04:43):
start a movement that would strike at the core of
political life in Los Angeles.
Speaker 5 (04:48):
I I've been to jail, I I've been ragged and
being many time. I've lont my job, I've lost my apartment.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
This is shattering the systems. The true crime podcast that's
about more than Crome. The life of Jamel Moore after
this break In two thousand and nine, Jamel Moore arrived
(05:23):
in Los Angeles, and like so many gay black men
before him, he almost immediately got involved with ballroom or
ball culture. Jamel joined the House of Combe, the Garsans,
headed by the transactivist Gia Banks. Now, ballroom is kind
of hard to describe, but I need to take more
than a moment, especially given the climate of anti gay,
(05:44):
anti trans, and anti drag laws in the US right now.
Ballroom is a kind of competition where different houses compete
against each other. Essentially and what I would all the
Olympics of drag. They have to think of drag in
this context as broadly as possible. It's about whether or
(06:07):
not you can pull off the look or serve realness.
There are all kinds of categories schoolboy, traditional, drag, military.
Speaker 6 (06:16):
If I was to see look at you and guess
your category, I would say it would be which queen
realness bring it in a sports effect.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
I needed some help explaining bal culture in its place
in black gay life.
Speaker 6 (06:29):
My name is Sean Torrenton. I am one of the
founders of Slave TV, the premier destination for LGBTQ entertainment.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Shawn is currently a member of the House of Basquiat,
but he and Jamel were once a member of the
same house, though they never knowingly cross pass. But we
wanted to talk to Sean in part because, well, my
producers and I have become really fascinated with bald culture
and how it kind of forms a safety debt for black,
gay and trans folks.
Speaker 6 (06:57):
Just growing up like a ball would be considered a
safe space for black and like latinx LGBTQ folks, particularly
who are like often facing like multiple layers of discrimination
and marginal marginalists, marginalism, marginalization.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
I always fuck that word up.
Speaker 6 (07:18):
Excuse me another word just discrimination and just being outcasted
from society and the communities made up of houses which
are like essentially chosen families that provide a sense of
like belonging and acceptance and families for everyone within the house.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Importantly for this story, Sean Torrenton has been a part
of ball culture in New York and LA.
Speaker 6 (07:44):
So I would say LA ballroom is keeping it all
school because it's the smallest scene. LA is about like
everybody's just enjoying eachself is family. When when you go
to the ball everybody's love and everybody just know each
other and everybody's connected somehow, So I do of that
aspect of the la ballroom scene.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
The latest iteration of ball culture got its start alongside
the age crisis in New York during the nineteen eighties,
and movies like Paris Is Burning brought ball culture above ground.
In the nineties, when baal culture reached kind of a
cultural peak, I snuck off to more than my fair
share in New York from college. That was an important
(08:23):
part of my coming out. Sean says, it's important to
understand why black and LATINX queer folk are so drawn
to this world.
Speaker 6 (08:32):
The draw to this world is, you know, well as
far as like and I'm just gonna say me, when
you are a young kid and you are you know,
you didn't come from a privileged background, and the only
(08:54):
way out of your situation is through imagination. But then
you come to a place where everybody is living in
this fantasy and you getting all these cheers and all
these accolades because you are being your full authentic self.
That draws people in, and you are considered a celebrity
(09:15):
in that community, that would draw anybody in. It's fame
is what we all want. But even though you people
say they don't want it, everybody wants a little bit
of it.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
While doing research for this show, I found the writings
of Channing Gerard Joseph. He's a queer author in a
Storian He traced the roots of drag and his child
ballroom or ball culture back to Washington, d c. Of
the eighteen eighties, and according to Joseph, essentially drag was
founded in protest against homophobia and racism when a former
(09:48):
slave named William Dorsey Swan became the first queer activist.
He was arrested for protesting new laws that were being
enacted at the time that made dressing as the opposite
sex illegal. This was the same time that voting rights
were being taken away from former slaves. Sound familiar, Well,
the former slave William Swan became the first documented person
(10:11):
to proclaim himself a queen of Drag or simply the
Queen Sean Torrington says, you can see a direct line
between the protests and community that William Swan created in
the ball community that he, Jamel and I were a
part of.
Speaker 6 (10:26):
A lot of times people don't even have a place
to sleep, you know, they walk these balls for the
cash categories so they can pay their rent. This is
their way to make money. Some girls, in order to survive,
they have to escorre, you know, sex works.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Many of the houses now have relationships with brands and
social service organizations. The house that Sean Torrington is a
part of now is able to provide some housing, about
ten to fifteen units, but that is a drop in
the bucket when you consider that the homeless population of
Los Angeles County it's about seventy six thousand on any
given night. Jamel Moore found the same escape in being
(11:07):
himself as the former slave William Swan did in the
eighteen eighties, that I did in the nineteen nineties, or
that O'shee Sibley, the dancer who was murdered at twenty
eight in Brooklyn did this summer. He was murdered for
dancing voguing. That's a dance that goes all the way
back to a dance called the cakewalk, a dance that
(11:28):
slaves did. The rent in Los Angeles is now and
was too damn high. When Jamel got to LA it
was hard for him to have steady, reliable housing. He
(11:51):
bounced around between friends, couches, and sometimes sleep on the streets. Now,
while bal culture is a real thing and the relations
chips are real, it's not like joining the house comes
with a job. Samuel Lloyd says so eloquently, if you're
not making two hundred and fifty thousand dollars in Los Angeles,
you're certainly not living in the American dream. Now, with
(12:13):
not a lot of job prospects, it's not hard to
see how a handsome young man would turn to sex work,
especially in a town with a lot of rich gay men,
many of them closeted offering hundreds of dollars for sex.
Speaker 7 (12:30):
It is the person who has everything and offers you
everything with this particular type of risk, i e.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
The math and the sex.
Speaker 7 (12:44):
Those type of offers are A young, poor black queer
person has to balance out. Do I eat today, do
I have shelter today? And do I engage in this
activity that may be dangerous, But at least I ate,
At least I have money in my pocket. At least
I'm gonna be okay for a days.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
It's around this time that Jamel told a friend that
he was seeing a white john in West Hollywood who
had messaged him on.
Speaker 5 (13:09):
Adam for Adam so Jamel Moore new Buck for a
long time. They kind of had not, I guess a
very long time, but they had a long standing relationship
that was predicated on party and play.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Lindsay Bailey is one of the federal prosecutors who would
eventually try at Buck.
Speaker 5 (13:29):
So essentially, party in play is what would happen. Is
Jammel would go over to mister Buck's house. Buck would
provide him with methamphetamine, and in exchange, they would engage
in some sort of sexual play. So sometimes just touching,
a lot of times it would be you know, sexual photographs,
different types of photographs.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
We're going to get back to Lindsay Bailey, the prosecutor,
but I need to explain party and play for those
who don't know. In the gay world, party has taken
on a completeletely different meaning. Alex Garner is an author
and activist. He's also a former sex worker.
Speaker 8 (14:06):
Party in play is simply a reference to using drugs
while having sex. Usually that means the use of crystal
meth while having sex. It usually means for an extended
period of time.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
Because the high from crystal can hit quickly, but mats
almost as quick and also if you use. Often people
get into a cycle of binge and crash, and that
can lead to going on the run, which means giving
up food and sleep while continuing to take meth every
few hours and have sex for several days.
Speaker 8 (14:42):
And then, in terms of when it became sort of
part of the vernacular of the culture partying play within
the per contexts that usually almost referred to almost always
referred to crystal meth or some meth was almost always
involved in some way. Even though drug use could range
from marijuana to ecstasy, to to kintamine to cocaine, chrystal
(15:03):
meth became the sort of lightning rod when we talked
about party and play in the US context.
Speaker 5 (15:08):
And sometimes Jamal would be paid for those sessions in cash.
Sometimes it would just be in drugs and they would
both smoke methamphetamine. But what Buck really liked to do
was slam, so that's injecting methamphetamine directly into your veins.
And they had that relationship for a long time.
Speaker 3 (15:29):
I pray that I can just get my life together
and make it make sense. I hope so many people,
but I can't seem to help myself. I honestly don't
know what to do become addicted to drugs, and the
worst one at that. Ed Buck is the one to think.
He gave me my first injection of crystal myth. It
(15:50):
was painful, but after all the troubles, I became addicted
to the pain and the fantasy.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
You can hear the pain and anguish. Jamel did the
best he possibly could to break his addiction. You know,
I got to say, it's not just the fact that
ed Buck introduced Jamel to slamming that's so appalling, or
the way he treated his victims, it was the illusion
that he cared about them. There are so many gay
white men who I've run into who say shit like
(16:22):
I'm not racist, I love black men, or I only
date black men, but then every single part of how
they act dehumanizes black men. I'm one hundred percent no,
I'm actually a one thousand percent sure that ed Buck
said that he loved black men. But here's the thing.
Ed Buck paid black men to do crystal meth so
(16:44):
that he could take pictures of them in underwear, and
he wasn't really interested in sex necessarily, but he paid
to humiliate and torture black men. For instance, he paid
them to let him call them nigger.
Speaker 9 (16:59):
Seeking out men in that category and providing them food, shelter,
and drugs, You know, are the signs of somebody with
a scheme in mind.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
When a white man is paying you to call you
a nigger, he ain't your friend. This was something that
Jamel Moore understood. He was horrified and troubled by what
ed Buck was making him do, and in the fall
of twenty sixteen, Jamel called his mother in tears, screaming
into the phone, saying, this man shot me up with
some stuff. I don't even know what it is. And
(17:31):
by the way, he did everything he could to quote
handle his life well, which meant getting the fuck away
from ed Buck now. With help from friends, he did
just that, moving back to his family in Texas in
the spring of twenty seventeen. So many of the things
that he needed to get his life together, they just
(17:53):
weren't available to Jamel. For instance, he was beyond the
age of being able to be on his parents' health insurance,
was in withdrawal. He needed more than willpower, He probably
needed consistent medical care, trauma therapy, rehab a detox is.
Withdrawal symptoms were mistaken for pneumonia, Lindsey Bailey picks up
(18:14):
the timeline.
Speaker 5 (18:15):
In July of twenty seventeen. I think Jamel was an
addict and needed another fix, essentially, and so he reached
out to the person that he knew would reliably get
it to him. He sent Buck a text message that
said I've been missing La, along with a video of
somebody being slammed with methamphetamine and a question mark. Buck
(18:39):
responded with I believe the text was along the lines
of be here now, and he bought Jamel a one
way ticket from Texas to Los Angeles. Jamel took a
backpack and basically everything he owned, got on that plane
and flew from Texas to Los Angeles. Buck sent someone
to pick him up from the airport. The driver picked
(19:02):
him up at I believe it was about one PM,
and he got to Buck's apartment at about one forty
five PM, went inside and never came out.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
No one knows exactly what happened after Jammel walked into
that apartment.
Speaker 5 (19:16):
There weren't photos or videos from that day, but we
can imagine that it was much like other times in
which Buck slammed Jammel, probably to the point where he
lost consciousness. And died. Buck went to a neighbor to
ask what to do. The neighbor started to perform CPR
(19:36):
while Buck called nine to one to one, and when
the paramedics got there, Jammel was already gone.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
For Los Angeles County Sheriff's deputies responded to a nine
to one one call from North Laurel Avenue in West Hollywood.
A young black man was lying unresponsive on a mattress
on the floor, naked except for white sox. Tennant's name
was ed Buck. He described the dead man as his friend.
(20:06):
Buck said his friend had ejected meth. A little after that,
he said his friend became very warm to the touch.
It took ed Buck almost two hours just to pick
up a phone and call police. This is shattering the system.
More after this, this is shattering the system. I'm Sonari Glennon.
(20:37):
When we left off, Jamel Moore lay dead in Edbuck's apartment, cold,
naked and alone. The last thing Jamel Moore saw would
have been pretty frightening. Buck's home was genuinely a frightening place.
(20:58):
He had photos of all kinds of politicians in prominent places,
but also there was a ray of gear devil mass
gas masks, all kinds of paraphernalia. Henry Scott, the former
editor of Ujoville, said they called Buck's apartment the gates
of Hell for a.
Speaker 10 (21:16):
Reason, and ed Buck's apartment and insanely he allowed photographs
to be taken by some of the text workers. The
living room, there's a big matt press on the floor,
there's a sofa. There are bins of a drug paraphernalia
in store.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
Ed Buck Long had a reputation for being obsessed with
black men. Henry Scott, the journalist, talked a lot about
his obsession with black men.
Speaker 10 (21:44):
He had several little plastic bins in his living room
of white underwear, and he insisted that the young gay
black men put on whiteies. That was one of the passions.
He claimed that he actually was friends for these young
men he used. He told me at one point that
Jamel Moore was a young friend of his who he
(22:06):
had helped through life. That's what he claimed.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
An investigator arrived from the Los Angeles County Medical Examiner's office.
On the floor next to Jamel, he noted ziploc bags
swelled with water. A rolling toolbox was parked against the wall.
Inside were several syringes with brown residue, a scale, lighters,
a straw, a glass pipe with burn marks, and a
(22:33):
clear plastic bag containing a crystal like substance. The examiner
was able to unlock his phone using his password nineteen
ninety one, Jammel's birth year. According to news reports, there
was a text from American Airlines that said that Jammel
had flown that morning from Houston to lax. The examiner
(22:54):
performed an autopsy. There were no signs of visible trauma.
There was, however, puncture wounds visible on his left in
our forearm. Jamel tested positive from methan fetamine and the
examiner found quote a notebook located in the decedent's property
that indicated using intravenous drugs with ed Buck in the past. Again,
(23:17):
reports say that the examiner ruled the death and accidental
methan fetamine overdose. In less than five days after his death,
the case was closed. Jamel Moore died on July twenty seventh,
twenty seventeen. Meanwhile, ed Buck was a man about town.
(23:41):
By the Thursday after Jamel's death, he showed up at
a Wiho City meeting of the Stonewall Steering Committee of
the Democratic Party. Now that's a gay arm of the
local party. There was Buck Chilling, pretending that nothing was wrong.
Speaker 11 (24:00):
Than that shouldn't have happened. It just shouldn't have happened.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
By August first, Jamel's mother, Letitia Nixon, began contacting all
kinds of media outlets to try to draw attention to
the plight of her son.
Speaker 11 (24:19):
My son filed police reports. He's be cried out to
so many people, and we all failed them. I just
hope that the Sheriff's department does not fail my son.
I'm asking for justice. It's crazy how the whole entire
situation was handled. My son's dead and five days later
(24:41):
the case is closed. I just want justice. That's it.
My whole life has been turned upside down when you
fight for the ones you love, and I will not
stop until I get justice ed. Buck needs to be
held to accountability for all the things that he's done.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Letitia Nixon would soon get the attention of a small
local website called we Ho Times. The story contained most
of what Nixon claimed. The story would also contain this
titbed that would bring the case to national attention, if
not an arrest. It called ed Buck quote one of
California's most prolific and substantial political donors, a detail that
(25:34):
many readers in Los Angeles were completely astonished to hear. Now,
while the local media began to take notice, the Sheriff's
office failed to mail more this time around. Lindsay Horvath
was on the city council when Jamel Moore died. She
served two terms as mayor, long before the death of
ed Buck's apartment. They were on the opposite sides. How
(25:58):
do you choose not align?
Speaker 12 (26:00):
There were any number of issues. I was a big
affordable housing advocate. He opposed many projects. He lived in
rent controlled housing, but he was wanting to close the
door on a lot of people from being a part
of the West Hollywood community in a lot of different ways.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
What are those? I mean a lot of different ways.
It seems like there was an eternity in that phrase.
Speaker 12 (26:20):
Well, I think that there's a lot that he did
that was not about creating an inclusive community, which I
think a lot of people come to West Hollywood.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
For help me understand where what would frustrate you about, say,
the sheriff's deputies and dealing with the death of Jamel Moore.
Speaker 12 (26:41):
Oh wow, it was more than frustration.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Lindsay Horbath was a council person at the time, her
frustration with police and especially the sheriff reached a boiling point.
Speaker 12 (26:53):
It was absolutely devastating to hear about the death of
Jammel Moore. The sheriff's deputies who were involved in the
investigation had indicated at some point thereafter that it wasn't
(27:16):
the first time that they had been called to that
particular residence, and so not only in that specific investigation,
but just knowing that there are there were ongoing issues
with that residence and to know that ultimately it resulted
(27:37):
in the death of now we know multiple people at
that residence was just absolutely heartbreaking. To know that it
was something that was known to law enforcement and yet
and yet it still happened.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
Horvath was among a handful of politicians who spoke out earlier,
like Mike Bonnam, let.
Speaker 13 (28:00):
Them know that there is someone in office with some
influence who is going to be calling the sheriff, and
is going to be calling the district attorney, and is
going to be asking for a thorough and complete investigation
into this death and the circumstances around it.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
One of the biggest mysteries of this story is why
the then La County District Attorney, Jackie Lacy, chose not
to pursue a case against ed Buck after the death
of Jamel Moore.
Speaker 12 (28:30):
She chose not to bring the case, say more, I
think I think it was a choice, and there was
speculation as to why she made that choice, whether it
was his political contributions or political influence, whether she didn't
want to take on what she perceived to be of
(28:52):
flaws in the sheriff's investigation and expose those publicly, But
for whatever reason, she chose not to pursue the case.
I called her office after Jammel Moore's death several days
in a row, asking her office to help create safety
for people who wanted to come forward and testify and
share information about what they knew about the circumstances surrounding
(29:17):
Jammel's death, but what they also knew in terms of
the circumstances of what happened at that residence. And it
took many people coming forward, including my phone calls, not
only including my phone calls, for her to even be
willing to grant immunity for people to come forward and
(29:37):
share valuable information.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
All of this is entirely structural Alex Garner, the former
sex worker and present day author and activists, and.
Speaker 8 (29:47):
Those structures create the vulnerabilities that allow someone to be mistreated.
Because someone like Ed Buck can I recognize those vulnerabilities
that the system has created and realized they can take
advantag of it. Because if you're young, gay and black
and doing sex work, you have no expectation that the
(30:07):
police are going to take you seriously or do anything
to protect you. There's still profound stigma associated with being
sex work, with being a sex worker, or just having
(30:28):
gay sex. So having to talk to a healthcare professional
or a legal representative about your sex life is inherently
difficult because of the in trensed homophobia in our culture
and society, not to mention obviously in trenched racism in
(30:49):
terms of our relationship to the criminal justice system. So
those vulnerabilities are created by a system, a system that
is incredibly strong. But people who want to take advantage
of others can identify that and say, oh, I know
that they're less likely to call the police on me
(31:10):
for this reason. I know I can push them a
little bit more with a few extra dollars for this reason.
I know I can get them to be silent about
this for this reason. So it really is all of
these structural issues around jobs, housing, mental health and health
(31:30):
and physical health, and then homophobia, racism, classism, all of
these sorts of things are immigration policies. All of these
things construct a world in which someone has to function
and is largely vulnerable because of these structures.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
And even while articles were being written, ed Buck was
still luring men to his apartment with the promise of
money and drugs.
Speaker 10 (32:09):
He was a troublesome kid.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
On the next Shattering the System, Sympathy for the Devil,
a Rise and Fall of ed Buck.
Speaker 10 (32:22):
His mother, interviewed over the years, said she knew when
the phone would ring it would be the school reporting
another problem. But her son, she picked up the phone saying,
now what's he doing? So he was a little bit difficult.
He was a very handsome young man. He became a model.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
I'm Scenari Glinton and this is Shattering a Sisco. Shattering
the System is a production of Macro Studios and iHeart Podcasts.
I'm your host, Scenario Glinton. You can follow me on
Instagram at snari plus. The Number one. Our executive producers
(33:05):
are Charles D. King, Asha Corpus, Win Royo Reccio, Jonathan Unger,
Lindsay Hoffman, and Sonari Lenton. That's Me. Our podcast is
co written and produced by Ralph Cooper the Third and
Ben Cory Jones. Erica Rodriguez is our associate producer. Dana
Conway is our archival producer, Chris Mann is the audio engineer,
(33:25):
and Lisa Pollock is our consulting editor. Sound design and
music provided by Chris Mann with pod Shaper clips were
provided by the TYT Network. The Young Turks Special thanks
to Portia Robertson Maigas and Karen Grigsby Bates, and to
Michael Thomas of the Jamel and Tim documentary and filmmaker
(33:45):
Jace Bryan of the Beyond at Buck documentary. Stay tuned
for sympathy for who That's Next on Shattering the System
Wow
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