August 31, 2023 • 36 mins
The LA District Attorney won't bring charges, so the Feds take over.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
In this podcast, we're going to talk frankly but sensitively
about issues some people might find disturbing, including rape and suicide.
If you or someone you know is suicidal in the
US down nine to eighty eight, check out this podcast
notes page for information on LGBT plus mental health resources
in your community.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Something that I've heard nearly everyone admit about this story
and the case of ed Buck.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
It's hard. The facts themselves hard.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Two gay black men were found dead, two men dead
eighteen months apart in ed Buck's West Hollywood apartment. Ed
Buck was accused of torturing black men, getting them high
and addicted to meth. He's accused of shooting them up
with meth. And he would watch these black men wearing
the white underwear that he gave.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Them, writhe in pain.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
And even after Jamel Moore died of an overdose in
at Buck's apartment, the local power structure let ed Buck
keep endangering men.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
He kept torturing.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Them and killing them. Eighteen months after Jamel Moore died,
Timothy Dean was also found dead same circumstances. It's hard
to wrap your head around that than it can make
your heart sick. Now I've learned in journalism that even
if you are not a victim, you can be traumatized.
Later in this episode, we're going to take a deeper
(01:32):
dive into trauma and mental health. We'll examine some of
the psychological hurdles ed Buck's.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
Victims may have been navigating.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
For that matter, we'll take a look at social emotional
challenges that are happening all around us. The challenge is
so many of us are facing every single day. But first,
we're going to try to make sense of the senseless,
to try to explain why it took so long for
ed Buck to be held accountable for his crimes. This
(02:04):
is shattering the system. Today, we get a framework for
understanding not only his victims, but also the perpetrators in
this case.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
More after this break nine emergency.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
On January seventh, twenty nineteen, responding to a nine to
one to one call from Aducks apartment, paramedics found a
fifty five year old black man lying on responsive on
a mattress on the floor. He was naked except for
white briefs. His mouth was obscured by a dark purge
of blood. This was the second time in eighteen months
(02:58):
that police had responded to a call and found the
man dead in ed Buck's apartment. Ed Buck once again
told sheriff's deputies the dead man was his friend. Toxicology
reports showed an overdose of methamphetamine mixed with alcohol that
killed Timothy Dean. Here's La County District Attorney Jackie Lacy
talking about why she wasn't able to arrest at Buck
(03:21):
at the time.
Speaker 4 (03:23):
We can't file a criminal case based on who has
the loudest voice.
Speaker 5 (03:29):
Did we go out there and arrest him?
Speaker 4 (03:30):
Now the clock starts ticking, and it wouldn't be ethical
right now to arrest him until we really had the evidence.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Eight months after Timothy Dean was found dead in ed
Buck's apartment, yet another man implicated ed Buck in a
serious crime. He said Buck offered him cash and marijuana
exchange for sex, and according to prosecutors, Buck gave the
young man a drink, saying it was vodka. The young
man lost consciousness, awaking to ed Buck injecting him with
(03:58):
a syringe while he had metal clamps placed on his
body making it hard for him to move. Now, this
victim lived to tell the story. He escaped or fled
bus apartment and ran to a nearby gas station for help.
Hank Scott covered West Hollywood over the years and the
ed Buck case. He said ed Buck lrd men's his
(04:19):
apartment in a variety of ways, using sites such as
grinder or Adam for Adam. He enticed the men with
offers of drugs and money, and he used words like
generous in his profile.
Speaker 5 (04:32):
Generous means I'll pay you for sex, and ed Buck
would do something like that. I'm sure because that's how
he lured these people over through this sixty three year
old white a man's apartment and put on the tidy
white eats, the white underwear, and that was just one
of his weird passions. He then would share a little
drugs and there were some cases where apparently and with
(04:55):
the testimony, he shared not of danger strugs with young
men to get them in a state where.
Speaker 6 (05:00):
He could put out there being aware of it, slowly
into their arms. Now, this was not meth comes in
many forms. This was not a good that they sported
drug until ed Buck liked to shoot them up.
Speaker 5 (05:15):
It's called slamming, and that was something that ed Buck
had a strange passion for.
Speaker 7 (05:25):
I don't feel normal. I honestly think he has to
do with the drugs. It makes me feel horrible. Ed
Buck is the one to think he gave me my
first injection of crystal myth. It was painful.
Speaker 8 (05:39):
I wasn't politically aligned with ed Buck. I didn't see
I didn't share his worldview, and my experience was that
anybody who was on the other side of him, he
made an enemy.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Lindsay Horvat served on West Hollywood City Council for many years.
She's now on the La County Board of Supervisors Historic.
The relationship between the sheriff and we hose gay community
is problematic, says Horvath. The sheriff's office is in the
heart of the gay nightlife district.
Speaker 8 (06:11):
But if you're at the LGBT nightlife destinations that most
people associate with the city, you can probably see this
sheriff station.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
It sort of goes without saying that you weren't pleased
with how the sheriff's deputies handled ed Buck, which is
why we're here absolutely so keeping them that train of
thought of not being trained and not always being culturally competent.
Help me understand what would frustrate you about, say the
sheriff's deputies and dealing with the death of Jamel Moore.
Speaker 8 (06:42):
Well, it was more than frustration. It was absolutely devastating
to hear about the death of Jamel Moore. The Sheriff's
deputies who were involved in the investigation had indicated at
some point thereafter that it it wasn't the first time
that they had been called to that particular residence, and
(07:05):
so not only in that specific investigation, but just knowing
that there were ongoing issues with that residence and to
know that ultimately it resulted in the death of now
we know multiple people at that residence was just absolutely
heartbreaking to know that it was something that was known
to law enforcement and yet it still happened.
Speaker 9 (07:31):
Nixon said she was flabbergasted when she saw the surveillance
images Fox eleven obtained exclusively from Bunk's apartment building the
night her son was found dead. They allegedly show another
young man trying to get up to Bunk's apartment while
deputies were still on scene before.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
He shoot away.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
While Buck was showing up to bars and jo and
the turnstile of black men into his apartment found no
lack of men willing to enter his place. Something in
the political landscape, though kind of shifted at bucks crimes
began to attract the attention of the federal.
Speaker 10 (08:07):
Government, so I was very concerned. My first concern was
making sure that he didn't do this to another victim.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
That's Chelsea NoREL.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
She's with the US Attorney's Office in the Central District
of California. Even after the Los Angeles County District Attorney's Office,
these are the local prosecutors failed to indict ed Buck,
Norell says her office. The federal prosecutors could not turn
the blind eye to the fact that two men had
ended up dead in bucks apartment, and they began to
(08:40):
watch his.
Speaker 10 (08:41):
Place, making sure that we had units on the house
where we could observe him, where we could monitor the
ingress and egress of people coming in and out of
his apartment that go on for We came in in
the summer of twenty nineteen and we immediately started taking
(09:02):
measures to the extent we could with the resources that
we had. We tried to monitor him as much as
we could, but then not hit a fever pitch when
he had another victim in September of twenty nineteen.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
That victim identified as John Doe, that victim is the
one who escaped Bucks apartment after he was injected with
a dangerous dose of myth. John Doe very well may
have saved his own life when he fled Bucks apartment
and called nine to one one. John Doe is alive.
His reports of what happened to him were just too
(09:37):
hard to ignore. I'm Snari Glinton, and this is shattering
the system more after a break, the li District Attorney
(09:58):
Jackie Lacey was getting a lot of heat and one
of the chief complaints against her office was well she
didn't indict or prosecute at Buck. Now we need to
talk about Jackie Lacy because she is a pioneer. Born
and raised in Crenshaw and Los Angeles, she joined the
lada's office in nineteen eighty six and spent twenty five
(10:19):
years on a steady climb. Lacey was elected as the
District Attorney for Los Angeles in twenty twelve, making history.
She was the first woman and the first African American
to hold that office. Jackie Lacey was actually an anomaly
among the newer big city prosecutors. She had a reputation
for being tough on crime. And while it's true that
(10:40):
LA County has become a Democratic stronghold. It's kind of
important to remember that while the city of La is
deep blue and the city of West Hollywood, where ed
Buck lived, is blue or still, there are eighty six
other cities in La County, and the farther you get
from the center of Los Angeles, the rehdder and redder
of those cities get. Jackie Lacy, the district attorney, was
(11:03):
a longtime Democratic operative inside the city, so she had
to portray herself as a progressive there and outside the city.
She wanted to portray an image that was tough on crime.
Speaker 4 (11:15):
The Sheriff's department, they saw that mister Moore was dead,
but they investigated it sort of like an overdose, and
we know they found some things, but we contend that
it's illegal.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
How they searched for it.
Speaker 4 (11:29):
They needed a warrant and stake court could never come in.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
After the death of Jamel Moore, La County DA, the
local prosecutor, Jackie Lacy, said there wasn't enough evidence to
charge at Buck. There was still no charges after a
second man, Timothy Dean, was found dead in Buck's apartment.
Criticism of Jackie Lacy got intense activists and regular.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
People wanted buck prosecuted.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Meanwhile, there were an array of changes to the way
the government did business. Remember this is the Trump era
when it came to drug policy. This shift in drug
policy was a response to the opioid epidemic, and with
a ballooning number of deaths, there was a shift to
stop treating those overdoses as casualties of addiction and to
(12:21):
start treating them as crime.
Speaker 11 (12:23):
And historically overdoses were treated more like an accident.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
In my judgment, Nick Hanna is the former US Attorney
for the Central District of California, a Trump administration appointee.
Speaker 11 (12:38):
You know, police would be called and it would be
you know, somebody overdosed and that's tragic, but it wasn't
treated sort of as a criminal offense.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
And what can be.
Speaker 11 (12:47):
Done On the federal side, there's a very powerful federal
statute that makes it a crime to supply drugs that
result in aid death. And that's a unique federal statute
with a very heavy penalty, a twenty year mandatory minimum.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
It would be the response to the opioid crisis that
would make that statue look attractive. All the officials we
talked to from the US Attorney's office talk about cooperation
almost as if it were Sesame Street. No one will
breathe a word about politics, but there is always a
bit of politics or one upsmanship between the various law
(13:24):
enforcement agencies. So while Jackie Lacy, a local Democrat, was
looking vulnerable in front of voters, the federal prosecutor, a
Trump appointee, was going to handle her biggest headache again
neck Hannah.
Speaker 11 (13:38):
We decided to set up this task force to try
to see whether we could make an impact and stop
people who were just making money and not caring whether
they killed somebody or not. And in that context, I
believe it was one of the task force officers who
was assigned to that task force, one of the local
sheriff's deputies, who brought the ed Buck investigation to the
(14:00):
attention of our office and said, look, essentially, there's this
case that I'm aware of. It's not a fentanyl case,
but it's similar in the sense of somebody providing drugs
that results in death. And you know, maybe you guys
could take a look at it. And so I assigned
prosecutors in my office to take a look at it,
(14:21):
to work with the Sheriff's department and also with DEA
to take a look at the case and see what
we thought and see what the evidence was, what had
already been gathered, what additional investigative steps could be taken,
and whether or not we thought this was something that
merited a federal prosecution.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
What's indisputable is that two black men had died of overdoses,
and while federal prosecutors were investigating whether they could pursue charges,
La County DA Jackie Lacy, the local prosecutor, was arguing
that he didn't have a case against that Buck. Now
the tension was building for a case against Buck, but
the death of Timothy d the homicide Bureau in the
(15:01):
Sheriff's department had launched a new investigation. Remember we just
heard Nick Hannah, who was working at the US Attorney's office.
Hannah is a Justice Department lawyer, and he says someone
from the local sheriff's office is the one who flagged
the case to the facts. Sound like politics, anyway, Let's
take a listen to my interview with Lindsay Horrovab, who
(15:22):
served twice as wes Hollywood's mayor.
Speaker 8 (15:25):
She chose not to bring the case.
Speaker 3 (15:29):
Say more.
Speaker 8 (15:30):
I think well, for whatever reason, she chose not to
pursue the case. I called her office after Jamel Moore's
death several days in a row, asking her office to
help create safety for people who wanted to come forward
and testify and share information about what they knew about
the circumstances surrounding Jammel's death, but what they also knew
(15:53):
in terms of the circumstances of what happened at that residence.
And it took many people coming forward, including my phone calls,
not only including my phone calls, for her to even
be willing to grant immunity for people to come forward
and share valuable information.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
We have to remember the local politics at play here.
Jackie Lacy, the local district attorney, was being hit on
all sides politically. Now, to be criticized constantly on the
West side of Los Angeles, that's dangerous for Democrats, not
just in LA but national democrats. A significant portion of
the money that Democrats from all across the country rays
(16:35):
comes from homes that are just a turn off of
Sunset Boulevard for miles and miles. And another thing often
das can be the fall guys during politically dicey times.
I mean, if you've seen an episode of Law and Order,
you can get what I'm saying. District attorneys are very
loath to bring cases that they aren't one hundred percent
sure that they can win. Any loss will be the
(16:57):
basis for an opponent's political ad and Lacey had an
upcoming election. In many ways, she was stuck between a
sheriff's office that had a tradition of cutting corners, a
Trump appointed federal prosecutor, her own tough on crime image,
and all those dead black bodies.
Speaker 8 (17:15):
I think, well, clearly, the United States government was able
to bring a case in federal court based on the
exact same evidence that she was able to review, and
she elected, despite reviewing the same evidence, she elected not
to pursue the case.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
The district attorney framed this as a problem of he said,
he said, as if her hands were tied. Lindsay Horvath,
the former mayor of West Hollywood, says, that's just not
the case.
Speaker 8 (17:42):
I mean, the idea that there were people out there
who were willing to tell their stories despite surviving traumatic experiences,
and she wasn't going to create a safe place for
them to come forward and testify was absolutely absurd to me.
I'm glad that the US government did take up.
Speaker 12 (17:58):
The case.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
Again.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Nick Hanna, the former US Attorney for the Central District
of California.
Speaker 11 (18:06):
So we started, in conjunction with the DEA a Opioid
Overdose Task Force in the fall of twenty eighteen, and
we brought in some state and local officers to that
task force, with the goal being to investigate overdose deaths
like the crime scene they really are right, and to
(18:27):
determine whether or not someone should be held accountable for
providing drugs that killed somebody.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
The FEDS were building the scaffolding to prosecute people in
drug cases that end in overdose deaths. They were creating
a pathway to charging at Buck.
Speaker 10 (18:45):
So in the summer of twenty nineteen, the Sheriff's office
approached the US Attorney's Office regarding the overdose deaths of
Jimmelmore and Timothy Dean, who died in twenty seventeen and
twenty nineteen, respectively.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
Chelsea Norrel is a federal prosecutor.
Speaker 10 (19:05):
The DA's office at that point had declined the Jammel
Moore investigation, but it was my understanding that they had
reopened the investigation of both deaths. At the same time,
the sheriffs brought the investigation to the US Attorney's office,
so we were working in parallel together at the outset
(19:27):
of the investigation, starting in the summer of twenty nineteen.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
The chief of International Money Laundering and International Narcotics recruited
NoREL to look into Buck.
Speaker 10 (19:40):
I initially reviewed all of the reports from witnesses from
the scene at Box apartment after the deaths and immediately
saw that we had a disturbing pattern of what I
later learned to be party in play, which was Buck
(20:00):
luring his victims to his apartment to inject them with
methamphetamine and then on some occasions sexually assault his victims.
So as soon as I saw that, I knew that
there were aspects of the case where we didn't have jurisdiction,
but that if we could show he distributed the drugs
(20:21):
that ultimately killed his victims, that we had drug distribution
resulting in death charges that could carry severe penalties.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Seven hundred and eighty two days after Jammel Moore died,
but only six days after the surviving victim called the
police ed Buck was finally arrested September seventeenth, twenty nineteen.
He was charged with maintaining a drug house, battery causing
serious injury, and administering me.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
Then fetamine, all felonies. The judge set his bail for
four million dollars, and.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
While ed Buck was held up in jail all that time,
he went free would have serious consequences for Jackie Lacy.
She would be one of several officials whose eventual election
loss could be directly related at least in part to
ed Buck. Now Jackie Lacy became the face of what
was broken in the system. One of the leading voices
(21:26):
in this story is Jasminchanic. Kanick was an early and
very visible leader in the campaign to put public pressure
on officials after Jamel Moore died, and Jasminchanic has been
doing her work as a journalist and an activist for
nearly two decades in Los Angeles, and there are a
few voices that have been more consistent in the fight
(21:46):
to bring ed Buck to justice. Jasminkanic was instrumental in
bringing about national attention. Among other things, she pointed out
at Buck's political donations. We reached out to jaz Mechanic
for an interview or for any person anticipation. She declined
our requests. We also reached out to Letitia Nixon. She
was also a very strong advocate demanding justice for the
(22:09):
death of her son Jamelle Moore. We did not receive
a response from Nixon after multiple requests for an interview. Now,
while Lacey was handling or not handling the deaths and
at Buck's apartment, she'd been fighting for her political life.
She was challenged on the left by a progressive. He
was one of many progressors who were part of a
trend nationwide at the time. Then, on election day, as
(22:32):
voters were waiting to cast their ballots, and I have
to say that this is one of the most bizarre
things I've seen in local politics, or most people have
seen in local politics, the district attorney's husband pulled a
gun on Black Lives Matter protesters on primary election day.
She would lose her reelection by nearly a quarter million votes.
(22:55):
In twenty twenty, Jackie Lacy declined to be interviewed for
this podcast. Her husband, David Lacey, died in September of
twenty twenty two, and she said she didn't think that
this would be a good time to do interviews, but
she did send a statement which I will read in full.
(23:15):
I've given my remarks on the Ed Buck case in
the past. I stand by my statements. Unfortunately, there are
a number of people who cling to the misguided belief
that Buck had influence on the lada's office.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
He did not.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Prior to the death of Jamel Moore, I had never
heard of him. When I found out Buck had donated
one hundred dollars to my campaign in twenty twelve, I
returned it. I am grateful that the United States Attorney
used their resources and laws to convict Buck of his
despicable conduct. I am glad the families of the victims
(23:50):
got justice at the state level. We simply did not
have the evidence and laws to prosecute him. Sadly, this
type of conduct sextra drugs continues. Most of the time,
these deaths are written off by the coroner as overdoses.
Proposed changes to the law to make furnishing drugs to
(24:11):
others are often rejected as an attempt to bring back
and she has in quotations the war on drugs. We
as a society want this behavior to stop, but we
are not courageous enough to enact laws to stop it.
That statement from Jackie Lacy, the first black woman to
(24:32):
be La County's district attorney, This is shattering the system.
After a break, we'll explore the psychological underpinnings of what
happened in this case. There are so many dark twists
and turns to the story that I have to say
(24:53):
that reporting this out has been hard, not as hard
as the lived experience of the victims, but to the
facts has an effect on me and the team of
people working on this story. It may even have an
effect on you. And it made me think about Jamel Moore,
Timothy Dean and John Doe and all the other unfortunate
souls who went into ed Buck's apartment and engaged in
(25:15):
his fetishist What sort of mental space were they in?
What made them who they are? Timothy Dean knew that
Jamel Moore had died in ed Buck's apartment. What made
him even speak to ed Buck, let alone go into
his apartment? Ed Buck claimed he had been abused as
a child. Is that even a plausible explanation for his criminality?
(25:37):
And I have to say I've never seen anything quite
as bonkers in politics as the late David Lacy, the
district attorney Jackie Lacy's husband, pulling a gun on Black
Lives Matter protesters on election Day. And I'm from Chicago.
What sort of space was David Lacy in? And more generally,
I feel like we need to explore the psychological health
(25:58):
of people who have limited acts to the support they
desperately need, my people, black, queer and trans folks.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
So I wanted to check in with a therapist.
Speaker 12 (26:11):
Hi, my name is b Arthur. I am a licensedmenttal
health counselor, and I am an advocate for mental health
for you formally incarcerated people, women and my boos in
the queer community.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
B is also founder of The Difference, a same day
therapy service. I talked to me a couple of times
in relation to this show, and it's easy for me
to forget that she's a therapist trained at Columbia University.
Speaker 3 (26:35):
That's partly because she's so relatable.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
She's also a part time comedian and she's named after
B Arthur.
Speaker 12 (26:42):
Yes, I'm the other one, so yes, it's true. If
you google be Arthur, there is another lady there and
she do not look like me. But I'm very glad
to be raised up under her tutelage, so it was
just a happy accident. But yeah, I love the Golden
Girls and Gone is the Gold Coast and gave people
really fuck with b Arthur's So I've been very blessed
by the name. I feel always say I'm the second
(27:03):
coming of the Arthur. So shout out to OGV.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Right up there at the top of the systems that
fail black and queer folk, the health care system and
especially mental health. Every principle in this story showed signs
of needing mental health care, but for the black community
and black men, the need is acute. According to the
Columbia University Department of Psychiatry, African Americans are twenty percent
(27:27):
more likely to have serious mental health problems, but they
seek out therapy at nearly half the ratest whites. B
Arthur says, though, the problem is especially tough, not just
for black men, but.
Speaker 12 (27:39):
Men in general. Yeah, so men in general, I think
the numbers are about seventy percent of the people who
utilize mental health services or women, right, So it's I
think because men are raised in dominance, you know, and
in this perceived you know, individualist, especially in America, which
has a very strong culture of avoidance, a very strong
do it your self mentality. It's just not in practice,
(28:01):
it's just not a thing. It's getting better with this
new generation. But yeah, I think because men are raised
in a culture of dominance, they're not used to sharing
vulnerabilities with anyone else, especially in other men. So there
has actually been studies that there's what they're calling a
friendship recession, and even men over thirty, like one in
four don't feel they have someone to talk to on
a bad day.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
As a therapist, I wonder, what is it that I
need to know when I approach these story In the
story about one of the people did sex work, the
other was you know, porn starch, both of them sex work, right, Yeah,
So what do I need to know about them?
Speaker 4 (28:36):
That they are?
Speaker 12 (28:37):
They are human beings, They are not their job. You know,
they deserve the dignity of life, you know, in their
full descriptions. Yeah, because I do think that. You know,
it's again one of those things when people are like,
well how do they die?
Speaker 2 (28:51):
Right?
Speaker 12 (28:52):
Like and if you go, oh, well, you know she
was working or he was a working girl, then people
go Okay, well that wouldn't happen to me right, and
it's just a selfish stinks, So it is not about
those people. I think sex workers know a lot more
about people in the human condition, and I think could
actually be like a solution to a lot of the
society's problems. Like I genuinely believe that because I think
(29:14):
a lot of sex workers, men and women in non
binary see people at their most animal right, and because
everybody's walking up right and pretending like we are not
bad boons like everybody else. We are not just ape
animals with just basic needs and violence and a lot
of like you know, non functioning brain parts. So there's
a lot of wisdom to be learned from sex workers,
particularly become Most wisdom comes from wounds, so we've seen
(29:38):
a lot of broken people go in and out of that.
So I think it's helpful to tell maybe how they
ended up doing that work. Not everybody who does sex
work does it because they don't have options. When people
are sex positive or enjoyed or recent ways that they
don't have shame about it, I think it's important to
tell their story before their death, you know, so I
think the full range of their human life. You know,
As a therapist, I'm always challenged my clients to address
(30:01):
the full range of human emotion. You can't just talk
about happy and gratitude. You have to pay attention to
anger and sadness. So I think everybody's life deserves the
full range of who they were. I think her work
should just be descriptive and not definitive. So similarly, in
your story, yeah, make sure the victims get to be known.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
I want to take these people as whole beings, right
and see them as people who they are. And ed
Buck is it's easy for me to see the victim
as being whole. Maybe it's a little harder for me
to see him as not being the booky man.
Speaker 12 (30:37):
So I think with predators, I think it's important, like, sure,
they're whole people. But since we're talking about true crime,
you know, I think it's complicated to try and fit
all of the lenses and again all the intersectionalities and
all the perspectives that are happening in these violent stories,
especially when people are just there for the violence. Let's
be honest, right, be.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Says, we talk about crime and victims in the most
digestible ways, good guy guy, hero villain. She says she
thinks human behavior is a lot more messy and a
lot more complicated.
Speaker 12 (31:07):
A lot of times sometimes it's just personality disorders and
sometimes it's just people having, you know, being at the
end of their rope, because a lot of times with men,
eighty percent of suicides are done by men and eighty
percent of homicides are done by men. So when we
think about putting hurt on other people, you were usually
hurting inside. So unfortunately, even though patriarchy mostly benefits men,
a lot of men are really emotionally struggling in this
(31:30):
system and it's making them want to have power over someone,
which is where they told their value was. So yeah,
a lot of distorted masculinity. I wish we could see
more divine masculinity.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
I just want to re ask that question about if
you have advice for how I should approach mentally, like
listening to the rest of this series and the listener.
Speaker 12 (31:55):
Really identify who you want to be in this story.
Are you the witness you know? Are you you know
giving the perspective of the victims or the predator or society?
You know? First of all, understand and be consistent with
who you want to be while you tell this story.
The framework of what the hook is and how you
want people to feel. Always work backwards right, reverse engineized
(32:17):
for what you want people to be left with, and
then you know what your duty is.
Speaker 9 (32:20):
Right.
Speaker 12 (32:21):
Okay, I need to be distanced, I need to be
data data centered, right, But at the heart of it
is the reason you can tell the story better than
anybody else is because you do have some of the
lived experience, you know, and some of the understood fear,
which is important, you know, which we need more acknowledgment
of our fear. So I would love to see more empathy, understanding,
and advocacy for the pain and the fear that black
(32:43):
gay men go through. So we have a very big,
you know, responsibility with that, you know, but don't let
the weight of that, you know, sit on your spirit
because your spirit is strong. This just piece obviously called
to you, so you know, just do right by it,
whatever that looks like for you. As far as like
how you spiritually protect yourself and emotionally protect yourself. Be
(33:03):
grateful for your life. Be grateful for, like you said,
this couldn't be you, the perspective and the foundation and
the tribal support, familiar support that allowed you to be
able to even have enough distance and enough power and
privilege to be able to tell this story from a
reporter and not from the victims' families, you know, So
I just encourage you to do right by that. Feel
(33:24):
encouraged and empowered for all the people who don't get
a voice in this story, because it's a really beautiful thing.
You know. In Spanish they say dolora compartita as do
lord vida, which means forgive my Spanish accent, but it
means pain shared is pain halft, you know. And Black
people don't need to feel the weight and the pressure
and the pain of the struggle all the time. You know,
(33:45):
we do need respect, rights and protection. And I think
you could do a really great job with that story
from that lens.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
That was the therapist, coach and sometimes comedian the West
African b Arthur. Talking to her has really helped me
with this podcast, and you can find her at barthurtherapy
dot com.
Speaker 3 (34:05):
That's the show.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
In the next episode, with ed Buck finally arrested and
going to trial, we turn to that trial. Getting their
day in court will be an uphill battle for the
families of Jamel Moore and Timothy Dean. One of the
problems in getting a conviction would be finding the people
to testify. This is Shattering the System. Your host Sinnar England.
(34:50):
Shattering the System is a production of Macro Studios and
iHeart Podcasts. I'm your host Sinnar England. Follow me at
so naar I one on Instagram. Our series executive producers
are Charles King, Asha Corpus, Win Royal Reccio, Jonathan Hunger,
Lindsay Hoffman and Scenario Glinton.
Speaker 3 (35:11):
That's Me.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
Our show is co written and produced by Ralph Cooper
the Third. Erica Rodriguez is our associate producer. Dana Conway
is our archival producer. Chris Mann is our audio engineer.
Sound design and music provided by Chris Mann with pod
Shaper special thanks to Karen Grigsby, Bates Portia, Amigas Robertson
and Lisa Pollock. Clips provided by Michelle Thomas of the
(35:35):
Jamel and Tim documentary. We'll be back next week, See
you next time, can
Speaker 3 (36:05):
Con Can Can
In this podcast, we're going to talk frankly but sensitively
about issues some people might find disturbing, including rape and suicide.
If you or someone you know is suicidal in the
US down nine to eighty eight, check out this podcast
notes page for information on LGBT plus mental health resources
in your community.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Something that I've heard nearly everyone admit about this story
and the case of ed Buck.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
It's hard. The facts themselves hard.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Two gay black men were found dead, two men dead
eighteen months apart in ed Buck's West Hollywood apartment. Ed
Buck was accused of torturing black men, getting them high
and addicted to meth. He's accused of shooting them up
with meth. And he would watch these black men wearing
the white underwear that he gave.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Them, writhe in pain.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
And even after Jamel Moore died of an overdose in
at Buck's apartment, the local power structure let ed Buck
keep endangering men.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
He kept torturing.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Them and killing them. Eighteen months after Jamel Moore died,
Timothy Dean was also found dead same circumstances. It's hard
to wrap your head around that than it can make
your heart sick. Now I've learned in journalism that even
if you are not a victim, you can be traumatized.
Later in this episode, we're going to take a deeper
(01:32):
dive into trauma and mental health. We'll examine some of
the psychological hurdles ed Buck's.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
Victims may have been navigating.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
For that matter, we'll take a look at social emotional
challenges that are happening all around us. The challenge is
so many of us are facing every single day. But first,
we're going to try to make sense of the senseless,
to try to explain why it took so long for
ed Buck to be held accountable for his crimes. This
(02:04):
is shattering the system. Today, we get a framework for
understanding not only his victims, but also the perpetrators in
this case.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
More after this break nine emergency.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
On January seventh, twenty nineteen, responding to a nine to
one to one call from Aducks apartment, paramedics found a
fifty five year old black man lying on responsive on
a mattress on the floor. He was naked except for
white briefs. His mouth was obscured by a dark purge
of blood. This was the second time in eighteen months
(02:58):
that police had responded to a call and found the
man dead in ed Buck's apartment. Ed Buck once again
told sheriff's deputies the dead man was his friend. Toxicology
reports showed an overdose of methamphetamine mixed with alcohol that
killed Timothy Dean. Here's La County District Attorney Jackie Lacy
talking about why she wasn't able to arrest at Buck
(03:21):
at the time.
Speaker 4 (03:23):
We can't file a criminal case based on who has
the loudest voice.
Speaker 5 (03:29):
Did we go out there and arrest him?
Speaker 4 (03:30):
Now the clock starts ticking, and it wouldn't be ethical
right now to arrest him until we really had the evidence.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Eight months after Timothy Dean was found dead in ed
Buck's apartment, yet another man implicated ed Buck in a
serious crime. He said Buck offered him cash and marijuana
exchange for sex, and according to prosecutors, Buck gave the
young man a drink, saying it was vodka. The young
man lost consciousness, awaking to ed Buck injecting him with
(03:58):
a syringe while he had metal clamps placed on his
body making it hard for him to move. Now, this
victim lived to tell the story. He escaped or fled
bus apartment and ran to a nearby gas station for help.
Hank Scott covered West Hollywood over the years and the
ed Buck case. He said ed Buck lrd men's his
(04:19):
apartment in a variety of ways, using sites such as
grinder or Adam for Adam. He enticed the men with
offers of drugs and money, and he used words like
generous in his profile.
Speaker 5 (04:32):
Generous means I'll pay you for sex, and ed Buck
would do something like that. I'm sure because that's how
he lured these people over through this sixty three year
old white a man's apartment and put on the tidy
white eats, the white underwear, and that was just one
of his weird passions. He then would share a little
drugs and there were some cases where apparently and with
(04:55):
the testimony, he shared not of danger strugs with young
men to get them in a state where.
Speaker 6 (05:00):
He could put out there being aware of it, slowly
into their arms. Now, this was not meth comes in
many forms. This was not a good that they sported
drug until ed Buck liked to shoot them up.
Speaker 5 (05:15):
It's called slamming, and that was something that ed Buck
had a strange passion for.
Speaker 7 (05:25):
I don't feel normal. I honestly think he has to
do with the drugs. It makes me feel horrible. Ed
Buck is the one to think he gave me my
first injection of crystal myth. It was painful.
Speaker 8 (05:39):
I wasn't politically aligned with ed Buck. I didn't see
I didn't share his worldview, and my experience was that
anybody who was on the other side of him, he
made an enemy.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Lindsay Horvat served on West Hollywood City Council for many years.
She's now on the La County Board of Supervisors Historic.
The relationship between the sheriff and we hose gay community
is problematic, says Horvath. The sheriff's office is in the
heart of the gay nightlife district.
Speaker 8 (06:11):
But if you're at the LGBT nightlife destinations that most
people associate with the city, you can probably see this
sheriff station.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
It sort of goes without saying that you weren't pleased
with how the sheriff's deputies handled ed Buck, which is
why we're here absolutely so keeping them that train of
thought of not being trained and not always being culturally competent.
Help me understand what would frustrate you about, say the
sheriff's deputies and dealing with the death of Jamel Moore.
Speaker 8 (06:42):
Well, it was more than frustration. It was absolutely devastating
to hear about the death of Jamel Moore. The Sheriff's
deputies who were involved in the investigation had indicated at
some point thereafter that it it wasn't the first time
that they had been called to that particular residence, and
(07:05):
so not only in that specific investigation, but just knowing
that there were ongoing issues with that residence and to
know that ultimately it resulted in the death of now
we know multiple people at that residence was just absolutely
heartbreaking to know that it was something that was known
to law enforcement and yet it still happened.
Speaker 9 (07:31):
Nixon said she was flabbergasted when she saw the surveillance
images Fox eleven obtained exclusively from Bunk's apartment building the
night her son was found dead. They allegedly show another
young man trying to get up to Bunk's apartment while
deputies were still on scene before.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
He shoot away.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
While Buck was showing up to bars and jo and
the turnstile of black men into his apartment found no
lack of men willing to enter his place. Something in
the political landscape, though kind of shifted at bucks crimes
began to attract the attention of the federal.
Speaker 10 (08:07):
Government, so I was very concerned. My first concern was
making sure that he didn't do this to another victim.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
That's Chelsea NoREL.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
She's with the US Attorney's Office in the Central District
of California. Even after the Los Angeles County District Attorney's Office,
these are the local prosecutors failed to indict ed Buck,
Norell says her office. The federal prosecutors could not turn
the blind eye to the fact that two men had
ended up dead in bucks apartment, and they began to
(08:40):
watch his.
Speaker 10 (08:41):
Place, making sure that we had units on the house
where we could observe him, where we could monitor the
ingress and egress of people coming in and out of
his apartment that go on for We came in in
the summer of twenty nineteen and we immediately started taking
(09:02):
measures to the extent we could with the resources that
we had. We tried to monitor him as much as
we could, but then not hit a fever pitch when
he had another victim in September of twenty nineteen.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
That victim identified as John Doe, that victim is the
one who escaped Bucks apartment after he was injected with
a dangerous dose of myth. John Doe very well may
have saved his own life when he fled Bucks apartment
and called nine to one one. John Doe is alive.
His reports of what happened to him were just too
(09:37):
hard to ignore. I'm Snari Glinton, and this is shattering
the system more after a break, the li District Attorney
(09:58):
Jackie Lacey was getting a lot of heat and one
of the chief complaints against her office was well she
didn't indict or prosecute at Buck. Now we need to
talk about Jackie Lacy because she is a pioneer. Born
and raised in Crenshaw and Los Angeles, she joined the
lada's office in nineteen eighty six and spent twenty five
(10:19):
years on a steady climb. Lacey was elected as the
District Attorney for Los Angeles in twenty twelve, making history.
She was the first woman and the first African American
to hold that office. Jackie Lacey was actually an anomaly
among the newer big city prosecutors. She had a reputation
for being tough on crime. And while it's true that
(10:40):
LA County has become a Democratic stronghold. It's kind of
important to remember that while the city of La is
deep blue and the city of West Hollywood, where ed
Buck lived, is blue or still, there are eighty six
other cities in La County, and the farther you get
from the center of Los Angeles, the rehdder and redder
of those cities get. Jackie Lacy, the district attorney, was
(11:03):
a longtime Democratic operative inside the city, so she had
to portray herself as a progressive there and outside the city.
She wanted to portray an image that was tough on crime.
Speaker 4 (11:15):
The Sheriff's department, they saw that mister Moore was dead,
but they investigated it sort of like an overdose, and
we know they found some things, but we contend that
it's illegal.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
How they searched for it.
Speaker 4 (11:29):
They needed a warrant and stake court could never come in.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
After the death of Jamel Moore, La County DA, the
local prosecutor, Jackie Lacy, said there wasn't enough evidence to
charge at Buck. There was still no charges after a
second man, Timothy Dean, was found dead in Buck's apartment.
Criticism of Jackie Lacy got intense activists and regular.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
People wanted buck prosecuted.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Meanwhile, there were an array of changes to the way
the government did business. Remember this is the Trump era
when it came to drug policy. This shift in drug
policy was a response to the opioid epidemic, and with
a ballooning number of deaths, there was a shift to
stop treating those overdoses as casualties of addiction and to
(12:21):
start treating them as crime.
Speaker 11 (12:23):
And historically overdoses were treated more like an accident.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
In my judgment, Nick Hanna is the former US Attorney
for the Central District of California, a Trump administration appointee.
Speaker 11 (12:38):
You know, police would be called and it would be
you know, somebody overdosed and that's tragic, but it wasn't
treated sort of as a criminal offense.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
And what can be.
Speaker 11 (12:47):
Done On the federal side, there's a very powerful federal
statute that makes it a crime to supply drugs that
result in aid death. And that's a unique federal statute
with a very heavy penalty, a twenty year mandatory minimum.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
It would be the response to the opioid crisis that
would make that statue look attractive. All the officials we
talked to from the US Attorney's office talk about cooperation
almost as if it were Sesame Street. No one will
breathe a word about politics, but there is always a
bit of politics or one upsmanship between the various law
(13:24):
enforcement agencies. So while Jackie Lacy, a local Democrat, was
looking vulnerable in front of voters, the federal prosecutor, a
Trump appointee, was going to handle her biggest headache again
neck Hannah.
Speaker 11 (13:38):
We decided to set up this task force to try
to see whether we could make an impact and stop
people who were just making money and not caring whether
they killed somebody or not. And in that context, I
believe it was one of the task force officers who
was assigned to that task force, one of the local
sheriff's deputies, who brought the ed Buck investigation to the
(14:00):
attention of our office and said, look, essentially, there's this
case that I'm aware of. It's not a fentanyl case,
but it's similar in the sense of somebody providing drugs
that results in death. And you know, maybe you guys
could take a look at it. And so I assigned
prosecutors in my office to take a look at it,
(14:21):
to work with the Sheriff's department and also with DEA
to take a look at the case and see what
we thought and see what the evidence was, what had
already been gathered, what additional investigative steps could be taken,
and whether or not we thought this was something that
merited a federal prosecution.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
What's indisputable is that two black men had died of overdoses,
and while federal prosecutors were investigating whether they could pursue charges,
La County DA Jackie Lacy, the local prosecutor, was arguing
that he didn't have a case against that Buck. Now
the tension was building for a case against Buck, but
the death of Timothy d the homicide Bureau in the
(15:01):
Sheriff's department had launched a new investigation. Remember we just
heard Nick Hannah, who was working at the US Attorney's office.
Hannah is a Justice Department lawyer, and he says someone
from the local sheriff's office is the one who flagged
the case to the facts. Sound like politics, anyway, Let's
take a listen to my interview with Lindsay Horrovab, who
(15:22):
served twice as wes Hollywood's mayor.
Speaker 8 (15:25):
She chose not to bring the case.
Speaker 3 (15:29):
Say more.
Speaker 8 (15:30):
I think well, for whatever reason, she chose not to
pursue the case. I called her office after Jamel Moore's
death several days in a row, asking her office to
help create safety for people who wanted to come forward
and testify and share information about what they knew about
the circumstances surrounding Jammel's death, but what they also knew
(15:53):
in terms of the circumstances of what happened at that residence.
And it took many people coming forward, including my phone calls,
not only including my phone calls, for her to even
be willing to grant immunity for people to come forward
and share valuable information.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
We have to remember the local politics at play here.
Jackie Lacy, the local district attorney, was being hit on
all sides politically. Now, to be criticized constantly on the
West side of Los Angeles, that's dangerous for Democrats, not
just in LA but national democrats. A significant portion of
the money that Democrats from all across the country rays
(16:35):
comes from homes that are just a turn off of
Sunset Boulevard for miles and miles. And another thing often
das can be the fall guys during politically dicey times.
I mean, if you've seen an episode of Law and Order,
you can get what I'm saying. District attorneys are very
loath to bring cases that they aren't one hundred percent
sure that they can win. Any loss will be the
(16:57):
basis for an opponent's political ad and Lacey had an
upcoming election. In many ways, she was stuck between a
sheriff's office that had a tradition of cutting corners, a
Trump appointed federal prosecutor, her own tough on crime image,
and all those dead black bodies.
Speaker 8 (17:15):
I think, well, clearly, the United States government was able
to bring a case in federal court based on the
exact same evidence that she was able to review, and
she elected, despite reviewing the same evidence, she elected not
to pursue the case.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
The district attorney framed this as a problem of he said,
he said, as if her hands were tied. Lindsay Horvath,
the former mayor of West Hollywood, says, that's just not
the case.
Speaker 8 (17:42):
I mean, the idea that there were people out there
who were willing to tell their stories despite surviving traumatic experiences,
and she wasn't going to create a safe place for
them to come forward and testify was absolutely absurd to me.
I'm glad that the US government did take up.
Speaker 12 (17:58):
The case.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
Again.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Nick Hanna, the former US Attorney for the Central District
of California.
Speaker 11 (18:06):
So we started, in conjunction with the DEA a Opioid
Overdose Task Force in the fall of twenty eighteen, and
we brought in some state and local officers to that
task force, with the goal being to investigate overdose deaths
like the crime scene they really are right, and to
(18:27):
determine whether or not someone should be held accountable for
providing drugs that killed somebody.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
The FEDS were building the scaffolding to prosecute people in
drug cases that end in overdose deaths. They were creating
a pathway to charging at Buck.
Speaker 10 (18:45):
So in the summer of twenty nineteen, the Sheriff's office
approached the US Attorney's Office regarding the overdose deaths of
Jimmelmore and Timothy Dean, who died in twenty seventeen and
twenty nineteen, respectively.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
Chelsea Norrel is a federal prosecutor.
Speaker 10 (19:05):
The DA's office at that point had declined the Jammel
Moore investigation, but it was my understanding that they had
reopened the investigation of both deaths. At the same time,
the sheriffs brought the investigation to the US Attorney's office,
so we were working in parallel together at the outset
(19:27):
of the investigation, starting in the summer of twenty nineteen.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
The chief of International Money Laundering and International Narcotics recruited
NoREL to look into Buck.
Speaker 10 (19:40):
I initially reviewed all of the reports from witnesses from
the scene at Box apartment after the deaths and immediately
saw that we had a disturbing pattern of what I
later learned to be party in play, which was Buck
(20:00):
luring his victims to his apartment to inject them with
methamphetamine and then on some occasions sexually assault his victims.
So as soon as I saw that, I knew that
there were aspects of the case where we didn't have jurisdiction,
but that if we could show he distributed the drugs
(20:21):
that ultimately killed his victims, that we had drug distribution
resulting in death charges that could carry severe penalties.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Seven hundred and eighty two days after Jammel Moore died,
but only six days after the surviving victim called the
police ed Buck was finally arrested September seventeenth, twenty nineteen.
He was charged with maintaining a drug house, battery causing
serious injury, and administering me.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
Then fetamine, all felonies. The judge set his bail for
four million dollars, and.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
While ed Buck was held up in jail all that time,
he went free would have serious consequences for Jackie Lacy.
She would be one of several officials whose eventual election
loss could be directly related at least in part to
ed Buck. Now Jackie Lacy became the face of what
was broken in the system. One of the leading voices
(21:26):
in this story is Jasminchanic. Kanick was an early and
very visible leader in the campaign to put public pressure
on officials after Jamel Moore died, and Jasminchanic has been
doing her work as a journalist and an activist for
nearly two decades in Los Angeles, and there are a
few voices that have been more consistent in the fight
(21:46):
to bring ed Buck to justice. Jasminkanic was instrumental in
bringing about national attention. Among other things, she pointed out
at Buck's political donations. We reached out to jaz Mechanic
for an interview or for any person anticipation. She declined
our requests. We also reached out to Letitia Nixon. She
was also a very strong advocate demanding justice for the
(22:09):
death of her son Jamelle Moore. We did not receive
a response from Nixon after multiple requests for an interview. Now,
while Lacey was handling or not handling the deaths and
at Buck's apartment, she'd been fighting for her political life.
She was challenged on the left by a progressive. He
was one of many progressors who were part of a
trend nationwide at the time. Then, on election day, as
(22:32):
voters were waiting to cast their ballots, and I have
to say that this is one of the most bizarre
things I've seen in local politics, or most people have
seen in local politics, the district attorney's husband pulled a
gun on Black Lives Matter protesters on primary election day.
She would lose her reelection by nearly a quarter million votes.
(22:55):
In twenty twenty, Jackie Lacy declined to be interviewed for
this podcast. Her husband, David Lacey, died in September of
twenty twenty two, and she said she didn't think that
this would be a good time to do interviews, but
she did send a statement which I will read in full.
(23:15):
I've given my remarks on the Ed Buck case in
the past. I stand by my statements. Unfortunately, there are
a number of people who cling to the misguided belief
that Buck had influence on the lada's office.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
He did not.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Prior to the death of Jamel Moore, I had never
heard of him. When I found out Buck had donated
one hundred dollars to my campaign in twenty twelve, I
returned it. I am grateful that the United States Attorney
used their resources and laws to convict Buck of his
despicable conduct. I am glad the families of the victims
(23:50):
got justice at the state level. We simply did not
have the evidence and laws to prosecute him. Sadly, this
type of conduct sextra drugs continues. Most of the time,
these deaths are written off by the coroner as overdoses.
Proposed changes to the law to make furnishing drugs to
(24:11):
others are often rejected as an attempt to bring back
and she has in quotations the war on drugs. We
as a society want this behavior to stop, but we
are not courageous enough to enact laws to stop it.
That statement from Jackie Lacy, the first black woman to
(24:32):
be La County's district attorney, This is shattering the system.
After a break, we'll explore the psychological underpinnings of what
happened in this case. There are so many dark twists
and turns to the story that I have to say
(24:53):
that reporting this out has been hard, not as hard
as the lived experience of the victims, but to the
facts has an effect on me and the team of
people working on this story. It may even have an
effect on you. And it made me think about Jamel Moore,
Timothy Dean and John Doe and all the other unfortunate
souls who went into ed Buck's apartment and engaged in
(25:15):
his fetishist What sort of mental space were they in?
What made them who they are? Timothy Dean knew that
Jamel Moore had died in ed Buck's apartment. What made
him even speak to ed Buck, let alone go into
his apartment? Ed Buck claimed he had been abused as
a child. Is that even a plausible explanation for his criminality?
(25:37):
And I have to say I've never seen anything quite
as bonkers in politics as the late David Lacy, the
district attorney Jackie Lacy's husband, pulling a gun on Black
Lives Matter protesters on election Day. And I'm from Chicago.
What sort of space was David Lacy in? And more generally,
I feel like we need to explore the psychological health
(25:58):
of people who have limited acts to the support they
desperately need, my people, black, queer and trans folks.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
So I wanted to check in with a therapist.
Speaker 12 (26:11):
Hi, my name is b Arthur. I am a licensedmenttal
health counselor, and I am an advocate for mental health
for you formally incarcerated people, women and my boos in
the queer community.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
B is also founder of The Difference, a same day
therapy service. I talked to me a couple of times
in relation to this show, and it's easy for me
to forget that she's a therapist trained at Columbia University.
Speaker 3 (26:35):
That's partly because she's so relatable.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
She's also a part time comedian and she's named after
B Arthur.
Speaker 12 (26:42):
Yes, I'm the other one, so yes, it's true. If
you google be Arthur, there is another lady there and
she do not look like me. But I'm very glad
to be raised up under her tutelage, so it was
just a happy accident. But yeah, I love the Golden
Girls and Gone is the Gold Coast and gave people
really fuck with b Arthur's So I've been very blessed
by the name. I feel always say I'm the second
(27:03):
coming of the Arthur. So shout out to OGV.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Right up there at the top of the systems that
fail black and queer folk, the health care system and
especially mental health. Every principle in this story showed signs
of needing mental health care, but for the black community
and black men, the need is acute. According to the
Columbia University Department of Psychiatry, African Americans are twenty percent
(27:27):
more likely to have serious mental health problems, but they
seek out therapy at nearly half the ratest whites. B
Arthur says, though, the problem is especially tough, not just
for black men, but.
Speaker 12 (27:39):
Men in general. Yeah, so men in general, I think
the numbers are about seventy percent of the people who
utilize mental health services or women, right, So it's I
think because men are raised in dominance, you know, and
in this perceived you know, individualist, especially in America, which
has a very strong culture of avoidance, a very strong
do it your self mentality. It's just not in practice,
(28:01):
it's just not a thing. It's getting better with this
new generation. But yeah, I think because men are raised
in a culture of dominance, they're not used to sharing
vulnerabilities with anyone else, especially in other men. So there
has actually been studies that there's what they're calling a
friendship recession, and even men over thirty, like one in
four don't feel they have someone to talk to on
a bad day.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
As a therapist, I wonder, what is it that I
need to know when I approach these story In the
story about one of the people did sex work, the
other was you know, porn starch, both of them sex work, right, Yeah,
So what do I need to know about them?
Speaker 4 (28:36):
That they are?
Speaker 12 (28:37):
They are human beings, They are not their job. You know,
they deserve the dignity of life, you know, in their
full descriptions. Yeah, because I do think that. You know,
it's again one of those things when people are like,
well how do they die?
Speaker 2 (28:51):
Right?
Speaker 12 (28:52):
Like and if you go, oh, well, you know she
was working or he was a working girl, then people
go Okay, well that wouldn't happen to me right, and
it's just a selfish stinks, So it is not about
those people. I think sex workers know a lot more
about people in the human condition, and I think could
actually be like a solution to a lot of the
society's problems. Like I genuinely believe that because I think
(29:14):
a lot of sex workers, men and women in non
binary see people at their most animal right, and because
everybody's walking up right and pretending like we are not
bad boons like everybody else. We are not just ape
animals with just basic needs and violence and a lot
of like you know, non functioning brain parts. So there's
a lot of wisdom to be learned from sex workers,
particularly become Most wisdom comes from wounds, so we've seen
(29:38):
a lot of broken people go in and out of that.
So I think it's helpful to tell maybe how they
ended up doing that work. Not everybody who does sex
work does it because they don't have options. When people
are sex positive or enjoyed or recent ways that they
don't have shame about it, I think it's important to
tell their story before their death, you know, so I
think the full range of their human life. You know,
As a therapist, I'm always challenged my clients to address
(30:01):
the full range of human emotion. You can't just talk
about happy and gratitude. You have to pay attention to
anger and sadness. So I think everybody's life deserves the
full range of who they were. I think her work
should just be descriptive and not definitive. So similarly, in
your story, yeah, make sure the victims get to be known.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
I want to take these people as whole beings, right
and see them as people who they are. And ed
Buck is it's easy for me to see the victim
as being whole. Maybe it's a little harder for me
to see him as not being the booky man.
Speaker 12 (30:37):
So I think with predators, I think it's important, like, sure,
they're whole people. But since we're talking about true crime,
you know, I think it's complicated to try and fit
all of the lenses and again all the intersectionalities and
all the perspectives that are happening in these violent stories,
especially when people are just there for the violence. Let's
be honest, right, be.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Says, we talk about crime and victims in the most
digestible ways, good guy guy, hero villain. She says she
thinks human behavior is a lot more messy and a
lot more complicated.
Speaker 12 (31:07):
A lot of times sometimes it's just personality disorders and
sometimes it's just people having, you know, being at the
end of their rope, because a lot of times with men,
eighty percent of suicides are done by men and eighty
percent of homicides are done by men. So when we
think about putting hurt on other people, you were usually
hurting inside. So unfortunately, even though patriarchy mostly benefits men,
a lot of men are really emotionally struggling in this
(31:30):
system and it's making them want to have power over someone,
which is where they told their value was. So yeah,
a lot of distorted masculinity. I wish we could see
more divine masculinity.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
I just want to re ask that question about if
you have advice for how I should approach mentally, like
listening to the rest of this series and the listener.
Speaker 12 (31:55):
Really identify who you want to be in this story.
Are you the witness you know? Are you you know
giving the perspective of the victims or the predator or society?
You know? First of all, understand and be consistent with
who you want to be while you tell this story.
The framework of what the hook is and how you
want people to feel. Always work backwards right, reverse engineized
(32:17):
for what you want people to be left with, and
then you know what your duty is.
Speaker 9 (32:20):
Right.
Speaker 12 (32:21):
Okay, I need to be distanced, I need to be
data data centered, right, But at the heart of it
is the reason you can tell the story better than
anybody else is because you do have some of the
lived experience, you know, and some of the understood fear,
which is important, you know, which we need more acknowledgment
of our fear. So I would love to see more empathy, understanding,
and advocacy for the pain and the fear that black
(32:43):
gay men go through. So we have a very big,
you know, responsibility with that, you know, but don't let
the weight of that, you know, sit on your spirit
because your spirit is strong. This just piece obviously called
to you, so you know, just do right by it,
whatever that looks like for you. As far as like
how you spiritually protect yourself and emotionally protect yourself. Be
(33:03):
grateful for your life. Be grateful for, like you said,
this couldn't be you, the perspective and the foundation and
the tribal support, familiar support that allowed you to be
able to even have enough distance and enough power and
privilege to be able to tell this story from a
reporter and not from the victims' families, you know, So
I just encourage you to do right by that. Feel
(33:24):
encouraged and empowered for all the people who don't get
a voice in this story, because it's a really beautiful thing.
You know. In Spanish they say dolora compartita as do
lord vida, which means forgive my Spanish accent, but it
means pain shared is pain halft, you know. And Black
people don't need to feel the weight and the pressure
and the pain of the struggle all the time. You know,
(33:45):
we do need respect, rights and protection. And I think
you could do a really great job with that story
from that lens.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
That was the therapist, coach and sometimes comedian the West
African b Arthur. Talking to her has really helped me
with this podcast, and you can find her at barthurtherapy
dot com.
Speaker 3 (34:05):
That's the show.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
In the next episode, with ed Buck finally arrested and
going to trial, we turn to that trial. Getting their
day in court will be an uphill battle for the
families of Jamel Moore and Timothy Dean. One of the
problems in getting a conviction would be finding the people
to testify. This is Shattering the System. Your host Sinnar England.
(34:50):
Shattering the System is a production of Macro Studios and
iHeart Podcasts. I'm your host Sinnar England. Follow me at
so naar I one on Instagram. Our series executive producers
are Charles King, Asha Corpus, Win Royal Reccio, Jonathan Hunger,
Lindsay Hoffman and Scenario Glinton.
Speaker 3 (35:11):
That's Me.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
Our show is co written and produced by Ralph Cooper
the Third. Erica Rodriguez is our associate producer. Dana Conway
is our archival producer. Chris Mann is our audio engineer.
Sound design and music provided by Chris Mann with pod
Shaper special thanks to Karen Grigsby, Bates Portia, Amigas Robertson
and Lisa Pollock. Clips provided by Michelle Thomas of the
(35:35):
Jamel and Tim documentary. We'll be back next week, See
you next time, can
Speaker 3 (36:05):
Con Can Can
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